Google's evolving use of engagement metrics

Summary

Podcast Summary: Voices of Search – “Google's Evolving Use of Engagement Metrics”

Podcast: Voices of Search (I Hear Everything)
Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Tyson Stockton
Featured Guest: Tom from Crowd

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how Google’s usage of engagement metrics is changing, particularly as AI-driven search experiences like SERP-integrated “AI mode” evolve. Tyson Stockton and guest Tom from Crowd discuss the implications for SEO, content strategy, and the ways publishers and marketers can adapt to reduced direct traffic and new forms of value measurement. The conversation focuses on how brands might understand and optimize their presence within AI-powered search while adapting to Google’s shifting evaluation criteria.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shift Toward SERP-Centric and AI-Driven Search Experiences

[00:43]

• Tom and Tyson discuss the increasing prevalence of AI-powered search result pages (SERPs), where more user engagement and information interaction happens without traditional website clicks.
• As reference and content consumption move “within the SERP,” legacy engagement metrics face challenges in measuring success and content value.

2. Mentions and Citations in AI Search

[00:58] Tom:

• Tom emphasizes the growing importance of “mention and citation rate”—how often a brand or content is referenced by AI-driven SERP snippets.
• He notes:

  "I think we need some form of mention and citation rate to understand how our content is being referenced in these AI powered search experiences."
  (00:58)

• There's recognition that tracking and understanding these non-click interactions are now crucial.

3. Context and Value Trade-offs in the AI-Driven Search Ecosystem

[01:18] Tom:

• Tom expresses skepticism but stresses the need to understand not just that a mention happened, but also why:

  "There has to be some form of value trade in a scenario where the LLMs need and use our content but don't always send traffic to the publisher. There has to be some sort of measurement trade off there, and that feels like a sensible trade."
  (01:18)

• The discussion highlights how large language models (LLMs) rely on publisher content, often without traffic reciprocation, suggesting the need for new frameworks to measure and reward value exchanges.

4. Legacy Engagement Metrics and the Rise of Quality Evaluation Concerns

[01:49] Host (Tyson):

• Tyson raises concerns regarding how traditional metrics (such as those derived from Navboost, a Google ranking mechanism) become less relevant as users stop clicking through to publisher websites:

  "So much of that, which is a critical piece in really evaluating like the quality of the rankings, is now no longer relevant if they're not actually clicking through."
  (01:49)

• He speculates about alternative indicators like “dwell time on the SERP page”:

  "I'm really curious to see if things like dwell time on the SERP page [are] a factor that Google would use of whether or not they brought in the right citations..."
  (01:53)

5. Skepticism and the Data Black Box

[02:27] Tom:

• Tom expresses pessimism about whether Google will provide visibility into these new engagement signals:

  "Whether we'll get that information, I'm pessimistic about. But yeah, I think, you know, that would be super, super powerful if we could have that for sure."
  (02:27)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Measuring Value in AI Search:
  “We need some form of mention and citation rate to understand how our content is being referenced in these AI powered search experiences.”
  — Tom, Crowd (00:58)

• On the Changing Relevance of Click-Based Metrics:
  “So much of that, which is a critical piece in really evaluating like the quality of the rankings, is now no longer relevant if they're not actually clicking through.”
  — Tyson Stockton, Host (01:49)

• On Whether Google Will Share New Engagement Data:
  “Whether we'll get that information, I'm pessimistic about. But yeah, I think...that would be super, super powerful if we could have that for sure.”
  — Tom, Crowd (02:27)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | Speaker | |---------------|--------------------------------------------|------------------| | 00:43 | Episode introduction and framing | Host | | 00:58 | Importance of mention and citation rates | Tom (Crowd) | | 01:18 | Measuring the “why” behind mentions | Tom (Crowd) | | 01:49 | The limits of legacy engagement metrics | Tyson Stockton | | 01:53 | Speculation about dwell time as a metric | Tyson Stockton | | 02:27 | Skepticism about access to new metrics | Tom (Crowd) |

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• The way Google assesses and values content is rapidly evolving, especially as AI-powered SERPs reduce direct traffic.
• SEO professionals must look beyond clicks, focusing on how and why AI features reference their content.
• There's broad concern and skepticism about how much data Google will share regarding these new engagement and citation signals.
• The need for transparent, mutually beneficial value exchanges between content creators and search platforms is becoming more urgent.

Relevant resources:

• Tom’s LinkedIn profile (see show notes)
• Crowd's website and products mentioned: crowd.com

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This summary captures the full breadth of the episode’s core discussion, highlighting pressing challenges and strategic considerations for future-focused SEO and content practitioners.

Transcript

[Tyson Stockton]

The Voices of Search Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to the Voices of Search Podcast. A member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network, ready to expedite your company's organic growth efforts. Sit back, relax and get ready for your daily dose of search engine optimization wisdom. Here's today's host of the Voices of Search podcast, Tyson Stockton.

[Host]

Next one is going to be Chris Gall. So, looking ahead, how do we see things unfolding? How will Google evolve its use of engagement metrics if more and more of the experience is happening within the actual serp, like Google's AI mode?

[Tom from Crowd]

Yeah, I spoke briefly about brand AI and extracting from the large language models, understanding and perception. I think we need some form of mention and citation rate to understand how our content is being referenced in these AI powered search experiences. So I think that's the first point. The second point is, and I'm less optimistic about this one, but understanding the context behind why the mention or citation has happened, I think generally there has to be some form of value trade in a scenario where the LLMs need and use our content but don't always send traffic to the publisher. There has to be some sort of measurement trade off there and that feels like a sensible trade. Understanding those mentions and those citations.

[Host]

Yeah, I think this to me is like a. I mean I'm personally not sure how this one's going to play out because looking at Nav boost, so much of that, which is a critical piece in really evaluating like the quality of the rankings is now no longer relevant if they're not actually clicking through. And so I'm really curious to see if things like dwell time on the SERP page being a factor that Google would use of whether or not they brought in the right citations or they brought in the right kind of sources for whatever, you know, AI output that was generated.

[Tom from Crowd]

Yeah, I mean I definitely love to see something along those lines. Whether we'll get that information, I'm pessimistic about. But yeah, I think, you know, that would be super, super powerful if we could have that for sure.

[Host]

Absolutely. Well, with that, that's going to wrap up this episode of the Voice of Search podcast. Thanks again to Tom from Crowd for joining us. If you'd like to contact Tom and find out more about him, be sure to check out his LinkedIn profile in our show notes or also check out his company's [e-mail] be sure to go over there and check out some of the things that mentioned in this episode, like the Search anywhere product as well as the brand AI. And if you haven't subscribed yet and would like a daily stream of SEO and content marketing, be sure to hit that subscribe button on your podcast app or on YouTube and we'll be back in your feed in the next following day. Now with that, that's all for today. Thanks for stopping by and we'll see.

You in the next episode.