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- [00:00]
Tyson Stockton
The Voices of Search Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to the Voices of Search Podcast. A member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network, ready to expedite your company's organic growth efforts. Sit back, relax, and get ready for your daily dose of search engine optimization wisdom. Here's today's host of the Voices of Search Podcast, Tyson Stockton SEO is not.
- [00:44]
Just about keyword research and rankings. At the end of the day, our objective is to add value to the business, and we should view our work as a revenue driver. Yet in today's landscape, SEO teams are still being siloed, undervalued, or misaligned with the broader business goals. With the rise of LLMs and AI search, there's a groundswell of interest in our industry. According to SEMrush's online search after ChatGPT, 1 in 10 US Internet users are now turning to generative AI first for their online search. This shows a significant shift in user behavior, and upper management is taking notice. So how do we reframe SEO as a revenue driver? And how should teams adapt with this new AI search landscape? This is the Voice of Search Podcasts. My name is Tyson, and joining us today is Travis Tallant, Managing Director at Brainlabs. Travis is here to help us break down why SEO is far more than just keyword rankings and how AI and omnichannel thinking are reshaping the game.
- [01:44]
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- [03:01]
AWT Travis, welcome to the podcast.
- [03:05]
Travis Tallant
Thanks so much for having me. Very excited to be here.
- [03:08]
Tyson Stockton
I mentioned this kind of beforehand. I felt like we were kind of orbiting a little bit within the industry where I kept seeing your name. I always saw kind of tied to different hiring piece and then we finally got connected through Noah and Nick and the SEO community and so it's great to finally have you here on the podcast.
- [03:28]
Travis Tallant
Absolutely. Yeah. And same. I've only ever heard great things about this guy named Tyson. And now that we've had a bit to chat, I can absolutely see why your reputation precedes you.
- [03:42]
Tyson Stockton
Yeah, it's nice when you also, you see someone, you're like, okay, I see a lot of similarities and things and then you finally get a chance to chat and you're like, okay, yeah, cool, we're on the same page. So today we're talking about I think like first and foremost how SEO and like our profession like as practitioners is, you know, it's more of a revenue driver. Like and this is something I too feel like as an industry maybe we didn't embrace enough in kind of like the early days and it almost feels like we're still trying to like kind of claw our way out of it, but maybe to level set with the listeners in your own perspective, like how do you view search and why do you see this as a revenue driver within the business rather than just kind of like a discipline that sits in the corner?
- [04:32]
Travis Tallant
Yeah, absolutely. When you look at most brands analytics, you will quickly see that SEO tends to be the most efficient and best ROI channel out of any of the other digital marketing channels. And to your point, for a long time people didn't acknowledge the power that SEO can ultimately yield from both a brand perspective, there are lots of things we can do in terms of brand safety, in terms of brand experience within the SERPs and on the website. But on the flip side, SEO can also lead to discovery. And I think that's where most SEO spend spent their time really with this vision that if we drive more traffic, no matter if the topics are related to the brand or not, that will somehow have some benefit to introducing that person to the brand. The reality is Google wants to show the most relevant website in any particular search. And I think that is also true for any search engine out there, because otherwise they won't be seen as useful and people won't use their product. And so today we live in a world where we do have aios taking a chunk out of traffic. I'm sure we've all seen loads on our LinkedIn profiles about how traffic is declining, but business is okay and conversions are still coming through, revenue is still coming through. And so I think we're really at a catalyst where now we have data to prove SEO has always kind of been more focused as the revenue driver and more focused as the conversion leader. And then that's really where you have to start critically questioning what tactics fall under SEO. Why is CRO not incorporated in an SEO's roadmap? Why is UX design and user experience on a website not incorporated in an SEO's roadmap? And I think that's where it gets really interesting, because that's the fun part. That's where you can really squeeze a lot of juice out of the orange, if you will, in this day and age.
- [06:51]
Tyson Stockton
So I guess on that last piece, I feel like there's conflicting signals in the industry where at its core as SEOs, we rely on the collaboration and working with these other teams, whether it's product in engineering, content marketing. I mean, you called out ux, CRO, like all those kind of areas, but yet in some ways I feel like, and it's not, it's not universal, but maybe not as much as I would like. It feels like SEO has been very siloed and it's like, despite having this, like, dependency, it's like they're more often than not the paid team and the SEO team's not collaborating together. Like everyone's kind of fighting for their own initiatives rather than having like more of this collaborative session. How do you feel like as an industry we can help to kind of further break down some of those barriers?
- [07:51]
Travis Tallant
Yeah, SEO is absolutely a team sport. And I think a lot of other channels don't necessarily have to be right. So, like paid search can stand up and launch all by itself. You know, as long as it gets marketing, buy in, brand marketing, buy in, etc. They can go spin up ads without working with anyone else. SEO can't operate in that way. And I think the best way to get stakeholder buy in is to really focus on the systems and the process that really enable all of those gears to operate together. And the way to do that exceptionally well is to understand what are each of these teams KPIs, what are their own goals? And then align your work and your roadmap to their KPIs and their goals. So development teams, their KPIs are typically like site speed and how often is the site up? Or sometimes they'll be conversion driven. What's the conversion rate, how quickly are people converting? And all of those things are relevant to SEO. And the missing piece is people tying those KPIs and really understanding what is everyone bonused on. What does everyone care about? And the way we do that at Brain Labs is through our quarterly SEO roadmapping process, where step number one is to go through an opportunity analysis and identify what are the biggest impact initiatives. You bring those to relevant stakeholders, say head of engineering, head of brand marketing, content, etc. And you hear from them, what are their priorities, what are their resources? And then you build your SEO roadmap. So you're incorporating them in the process before you build this roadmap. So then we shift from being a siloed team saying, hey, you need to do this, to okay, how do we do this together? And what's realistic? And then step number four is execution. And then how this turns into a flywheel is measurement by analyzing how are the optimized sections or pages of the site performing against the unoptimized sections and pages of the site. When you do that, it becomes very clear a the value of SEO's work, but the value of everyone else's input in that work so that you have shared wins and that allows you to build those stepping stones for easier approvals through stakeholders in the future.
- [10:26]
Tyson Stockton
Now, jumping back just a little bit there, and I think you said it was like step four, where you're kind of like, you've already made your identification of what the big rocks are that are going to have in your mind, largest impact. When you're approaching those other teams, can you kind of dig in a little more into how you're presenting that? Are you first trying to get the other teams to open up and share what's on their roadmap, but then you can kind of dovetail into that, or are you kind of approaching it more as like a pitch of like, hey, can I win you over on what I'm trying to push?
- [11:05]
Travis Tallant
Yeah, you know, I think every team is going to require a slightly different approach. I will say I consider one of my superpowers asking questions, and as a kid, that got me in trouble a lot. But in my role today, it's really, really Effective. So my approach is I typically present the opportunity that I see, say that is something along the lines of your schema on the website is a mess. We forecast what the impact to that is going to be. And there are tons of case studies out there that show when you implement schema, this is the impact. But you can even take it one step further to say, if this is a large enterprise brand that wants to decrease the amount of phone calls coming into the call center, you can say, hey, by improving schema, you can go down the path of what is that impact going to be? To answering people's questions in the SERP on the website where they don't ever have to call that call center. And even if that is a marginal impact, say 10% less phone calls to the call center, then you can quantify that. And that's where you start by asking questions, okay, what is the cost of one phone call to the call center? And that's where you can incorporate the other team's input to really build this story and understand what matters to them, what their goals are, so you can align your roadmap with what ultimately matters. I can't tell you how many times I've seen SEOs be really, really stubborn and firm in we have to do xyz. This is the only way we're going to see success. And the reality is the only way we're going to see success is stuff that gets implemented. So focus on the things that are going to get implemented, stop trying to fight the upstream battle. And the easiest way to focus on things that are going to get implemented is to understand what's already on other people's roadmaps, what matters to them.
- [13:09]
Tyson Stockton
That's such an important piece that I just want to double down on because I feel like I've, you know, came across some SEOs that are just unbelievably bright, super, super sharp, but it's like they seem to kind of struggle with the actual implementation side. And it's like there's almost an entire skill set or a game that goes into the how do you win buy in? How do you kind of do that? And I think the piece there that you mentioned on, like, hey, it's only as good as it's been implemented.
- [13:46]
Travis Tallant
Yeah.
- [13:47]
Tyson Stockton
And you can do the best tech SEO audit in the world, but if nothing gets implemented, you know, at the end of the day, it's like, what. What value did that work, really produce? And I think another area that I oftentimes, I find that SEOs, like, we tend to Feel uncomfortable. And, you know, sometimes it almost like people like, shy away from is the forecasting aspect.
- [14:11]
Travis Tallant
Mm. Yep.
- [14:12]
Tyson Stockton
And so through, like, your description there, you know, you were implying and hitting on like, building forecasts, building impact pieces, and it's like, I think that's such a critical tool to get that buy in and to show that your work is gonna align to the other team's goals. Like, what recommendations would you have for SEOs that are maybe like, let's say in their head too much, where it's like, yeah, but there could be an algorithm update and there's all these things that maybe I can't control. Like, what advice do you have to kind of give a little more peace of mind?
- [14:45]
Travis Tallant
Yeah. Any forecast is going to have caveats, even business forecast. So as companies give expected earnings and all of that, no one predicts a pandemic, no one predicts an economic downturn. No one predicts the CEO having a scandal and getting fired. Right. Like, those are all things that are outside of any business forecast control. It's the same thing in the SEO world, just dependent on algorithms and the evolving consumer search journey and audiences and all of that jazz. So any forecast is, of course, not a guarantee of results, but it's a good relative sizing opportunity. And that's how it should be presented is these are the relative results compared for each of these initiatives. Right. So if we identify a topic that the website is not going after that we think they have a right to rank for, and we do that for 10 topics. Going through a forecasting exercise then allows us to say, okay, which of those topics should we prioritize and which of these is the juice ultimately worth the squeeze? So, yeah, I think it's really important to get out of your head. I think it's also really important to be very clear with any stakeholders you're presenting to. It's a relative forecasting exercise. It's not an absolute or guaranteed. And also frame it in the analogy and context of business forecasting. There will always be caveats, and it's important for us to focus on what we can control.
- [16:21]
Tyson Stockton
Such good advice. And I think too, most executives are familiar and are aware that assumptions are being made in any forecasts. I think it's more important to highlight your logic, to be like, yeah, no, we didn't just make this up. Like, there was thought that goes into it. And it's like, sometimes, yeah, you might get kind of like pressured on, like, specific assumptions. But I think more often than not, people just want to see that it was thought through.
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Travis Tallant
Yes.
- [16:52]
Tyson Stockton
And knowing that everything's not going to be in a vacuum and you're not going to be able to control every aspect. But it's more of like, okay, you use sound logic for this. And then the other piece that I love doing too is throwing out like kind of, especially if someone feels really uncomfortable with it. Give like a best case, worst case. Like, hey, this is, what if we do nothing? This is like a conservative estimate. This is like the best case scenario, you know, whether you get all the resource requests that you wanted or whatever it is. But sometimes that I think can maybe help people feel just a little more like, I might be wrong on this. But at the end of the day it's like every business, like discipline is making these assumptions and even the paid team who has a lot of control has to also make assumptions. Like years back when all of a sudden Amazon jumped into running PLA ads. It's like, well, that blew up everyone's budget just overnight. And even that is such a controlled discipline in its own right. Yes, but kind of switching over. So you called out earlier and I want to double back to like CRO because I feel like, you know, as SEOs, we've talked about, you know, product led SEO, the like, you know, the marketing alignment analytics product as I feel like those are at this point like the more traditional aspects. And I think CRO is like a really interesting one that you've, you know, in previous conversations too you've called out. So like maybe if you could kind of share to the listeners like, how are you viewing like that aspect and like, why do you feel like it's so critical for SEOs to embrace it?
- [18:35]
Travis Tallant
In my mind, the purpose of a website is changing. It's changing from being an informational journey library, if you will, for users to more of an action oriented, purpose driven site.
- [18:51]
Tyson Stockton
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- [20:20]
Travis Tallant
And that means that you need to focus on how are people ultimately navigating the content, the pages, the experience, the flow on the website in a much more critical way than before. Where it was, I think a lot of SEOs ambitions was we just want them to land on the page. Once they get to the site we don't really care, it's out of our hands, it's in someone else's wheelhouse. And I think that is a very short sighted view of a the value and work that we do. Of course if you're just viewing keyword research as oh, I'm going to look at the search volume and determine what to go after, that's not a very compelling strategy. But if you say I want to take the keyword research, blend that over with the consumer search journey, blend that with audience Personas, blend that with existing content on the site versus net new content on the site, then all of a sudden there's a very easy spot where CRO ultimately plays which is hey, we have an upper funnel page for this particular audience, but we don't have a middle or lower funnel or loyalty page for, for this particular audience. Let's work on that and let's build that into our roadmap. Now the other thing I'll say is there's been a lot of bad CRO out there in the world. So much so where I would assert that's part of why AI search engines are seeing the uprise and surge that they are today. You know when you go to certain websites you're just bombarded with pop ups and with like awful email captures and exit intent pop ups and it's just, it's a miserable experience. And that's, that's why AI search is even possible because people want simplicity. And when I say CRO, I'm not just saying let's focus on the very bottom of the funnel conversion for, you know, to capture that first party data or that revenue. That's not good CRO. When I say CRO, I'm saying how do you build loyalty? How do you focus on the lifetime value of that customer so they come back over and over and over and you become the brand that they go to for whatever is relevant to you and they're ultimately searching for. That is what good CRO is, and that is what good SEO is when you're focused on the audience, not the keyword.
- [22:52]
Tyson Stockton
When you phrase it like that too, it seems like it's so obvious, it's like almost shocking of why hasn't this been more of a focus? Because it's like, I mean, we've heard for I don't even know how many years now. It's like SEO, you know, you're targeting the user, not the search engine. And it's kind of like, you know, you throw out like the Wayne Gretzky quote where it's like, I feel like it is a very good kind of like obvious element, but it is something that I don't think maybe as an industry that we've embraced fully. And I think it also ties back to kind of where we started the conversation of like SEO being a revenue driver is. It's like, without that element, how are you actually achieving it? And it's like. And then you're falling down that same kind of. I mean, in some ways, like trap of talking about keyword rankings and things like that. It's like, I feel like we've maybe unfortunately conditioned some executives to be asking about rankings and particular keyword performance. Yeah, but I don't believe at the end of the day, any executive is really that interested in keyword positions and keyword rankings. And it's like, and if they have, I feel like they've probably been fed that too many times. It feels normal. So I don't know, it's an interesting kind of element that I feel like we kind of maybe as an industry overlooked quite a bit.
- [24:24]
Travis Tallant
Yeah, well, and the other thing I'll say for the SEOs out there who are like, no, I only want to focus on stuff that impacts my KPIs and SEO. We know from the Google DOJ trials that site engagement impacts rankings. So if that's not convincing, if going after the audience and lifetime value of a customer isn't convincing enough, then just know that focusing on the user experience and improving site engagement metrics and your website does impact SEO rankings, and that was proven in the Google DOJ trial. So there's so much to say. It can and should absolutely be a part of this strategy. I will say it's not easy. You're adding one more element, one more team, maybe even a few more teams if you're in a large org where ux, design and development or whatever else are all separated. But it's worthwhile. And I think the best SEOs out there are the best quarterbacks, they're the best team players. And I think embracing that as a part of your job is basically going to be how you future proof your job. Because if you're just focusing on content or just focusing on keyword research or the very basic elements of SEO, AI is going to replace you. It might not be a year from now, but it will definitely be five years from now. And so the more you can integrate your role into the other teams and be that quarterback, the more future proof your job will be from this emerging technology.
- [25:57]
Tyson Stockton
Absolutely. And maybe with that I feel like obviously we need to talk. AI search can't really get through a conversation without it. But I do feel like it's an opportunity. And it's like you hear some people where there's almost like a nervousness of like, ah, it's like our job going to become obsolete. But it's like there's so much interest and awareness from like the general public. Like I have friends of mine that have no idea what I actually do for a living. I mean, they know like kind of, but it's like I'm actually having conversations about my work of people that would have known, never talked about it before. And I think like you have the ears right now of higher ups, executives. Like we're kind of, I think we have this opportunity to take advantage. Like what advice would you kind of give? Whether it's, you know, someone on the agency side or in house, like how to better position, you know, within this kind of like groundswell that's going on. Like how, how can we take advantage of this better?
- [27:07]
Travis Tallant
I think number one is having a really firm grasp on how it works. It's really difficult to be an SEO without understanding how a search engine works. And I agree the same with LLMs and I agree the same with aios, and some of that is in a black box, but it's also not. There's been a lot of documentation on how these things are trained and how they work and all of that jazz. So that's number one. And being able to simply explain that to a stakeholder is essential because when you do that, I think they will quickly realize, oh, so I need to make sure my website can be crawled. I need to make sure I have content that provides context to any of these models or to a user. And I need to make sure that my brand is well positioned in the market. Well, that sounds a lot like SEO. And when you explain it in that way, then all of a sudden it positions your team as the SEO team to help be the heroes and the problem solvers in this new world as well. So that's number one. I think number two is also leading with data. This is easier now, today than it was a year ago when there wasn't much available data out there. And it seemed like everyone I was talking to was saying ChatGPT had way more traffic and way more interest than we know it actually does today. Don't get me wrong, ChatGPT is taking a small slice of the search market today. That stands up 0.26% of the search engine market. Google is still king. And I think with Google launching aios, with Google launching AI mode, which is in beta today and will obviously roll out, I think the world that we're looking at is the vast majority of people will still use Google. And we know Google is using the foundations of SEO and SEO inner workings to help feed any of these LLMs and how they ultimately operate. So leading with data to say, hey, don't throw all your eggs in the ChatGPT baskets and really still focus on where your audience is is going to be crucial. The very last thing I'll say here is the way people are searching is changing. We're seeing younger generations use video platforms like Instagram and TikTok far more than we ever have. I think YouTube and Reddit are seeing the limelight like they've never had before within Google itself. And so that is driving a lot of interest. All this to say the winning brands out there are the ones that are doing what any good brand has always done, which is have an omnichannel, multimedia, multimodal approach to your strategy. Again, it's difficult, it's expensive. But I also know companies that spend 100 times more on paid search than they do on SEO. And I think rather than feeding the cash machine of these big tech companies, invest in your brand with better site experience, better content, better videos, and that will undoubtedly benefit and make any other paid media investment that much more efficient and effective and valuable. And that's the story that we're leading with today. And it's working. And many, many brands are bought into that story in this AI world.
- [30:45]
Tyson Stockton
Yeah, it's like the quick sugar fix is not always the best cornerstone of a good diet. And if you're too fixated on it, I mean, sure, there's always times and places for it. Do you see, would you predict that we're going to see that starting to evolve and kind of change more, or do you feel like we're going to kind of stay in kind of this similar like, yeah, paid search is going to get the lion's share of budget and we're going to kind of pick up the scraps on the side. Like how do you think it's going to kind of play out over the next few years?
- [31:21]
Travis Tallant
Yeah, these tech companies are really great salespeople and they have black box data that they share to potential clients to get more investment. So they will always have the, the advantage when it comes to forecasting, when it comes to competitive analysis, et cetera, than an SEO does. So I think for that and that reason alone, there's still going to be massive investment in paid media. I do think that companies are becoming more critical of it. We have many, many, many clients that are viewing holistic search, blending paid search and SEO strategy together. Less as a, oh, this is another lever for optimization and more as a, this is table stakes and we need to make sure that our investments are worthwhile. We also have clients that are really being critical on even TV investments and radio investments and asking SEO teams, hey, when we ran a Super bowl ad, what was the impact on search? Did more people go search our brand name? Did more people go to our website? And I think that's the lens every CMO should have and that's the seat and the table every SEO should be at because we do have access to data and insights that can help feed an entire integrated marketing strategy. So to your point, I would stop focusing on the sugar fix and I would start focusing on the exercise regimen. And how can we be a cornerstone during every part of that exercise regimen? We're not always the solution, but we do have really valuable inputs into each of those solutions.
- [33:11]
Tyson Stockton
And I love that call out that you made and I feel like it brings it back to some of the earlier points in the conversation where being that team player and building those relationships with other departments and other things, we have so much to offer, even not necessarily in the situations of there's something for us to gain. But like the call out that you made on being able to measure impact of general TV ads and what's the brand that's the strength of our brand. It's like we have so much data that we can provide that's outside of just a sole SEO use case. And it's like you can very quickly dive into providing almost like consumer demand and consumer behavior data way faster than any traditional marketing agency would be able to provide. Through doing census groups and things like that, you can quickly kind of cluster together keywords that would define a given category. Be looking at the historical search volume of that. Granted it is a challenge with the whole clustering of keywords and search volume, but even with that we have so much ability to, I think, offer this supplemental value to the other teams that then when you're going to have that conversation that you mentioned in the beginning of hey, what's on your roadmap? This is where the intersection is. It makes those conversations so much easier when it's like you're willing to give that lending hand without the immediate payback or return from it.
- [34:54]
Travis Tallant
Absolutely. I think that's the truth of life, isn't it? You're always going to get more if you are a giver rather than a taker. One of my favorite authors, Adam Grant, he's an organizational psychologist, I believe at Harvard or Stanford, one of those. He has a great book, it might be called Give and Take. And he goes through story after story and industry after industry and example after example of how being a giver is a really great way to, to have outsized performance. And I think the only way to be a giver is to understand what matters to that other person. So you aren't giving them something that they don't want because at that point you're just taking their time. So it's something I reflect on often of how can I give more to whoever I'm speaking with rather than take more. And when you live your life that way, A, it's very liberating and B, you don't feel like you're always keeping score and you can really get a lot more out of it and build deeper relationships and get more stuff done and show better results. And that's what it's all about 100%.
- [36:11]
Tyson Stockton
And even within the industry it's like we're still a relatively small, close knit community, I think in SEO. And it's one of the things that also I really like is that for the most part there's still like, I think like a genuine like goodwill and there's like, you know, a lot of sharing of what's working, what's not working. It's like we all fell into this industry from one place or another. Like, none of us went to school to be an SEO. And so I think like that human element, at the end of the day, regardless of what's going on with, like the landscape that we're competing in, at the end of the day, there's still a human element to it. And it's like to me, a lot of these things are just more of like, human nature, like general best practices of life beyond SEO or the industry itself.
- [37:05]
And a special thanks to Ahrefs for sponsoring this podcast. Monitoring your website used to require multiple expensive tools, but that's not the case anymore, thanks to Ahrefs because they just launched their Ahrefs Webmaster Tools product, which monitors your SEO health, helps you keep track of your backlinks, and gives you the insight into what keywords are performing for free. So check out Ahrefs webmaster tools@ahrefs.com AWT that's Ahrefs a h r e f s.com AWT yeah, one of my most.
- [37:40]
Travis Tallant
Recent talks at Mozcon and Brighton SEO, one of the sections is about AI is going to know more than you, but you can care more than AI. And that's the human element here. That's how you AI proof your job, your career as you care more. So yeah, good mantra to live by.
- [38:00]
Tyson Stockton
Nice. That wraps up this episode of the Voice of Search podcast. Thanks again to Travis Tallant from Brain Labs for joining us. And if you'd like to get in touch with Travis, you can find a link to his LinkedIn profile in their show notes. Or be sure to go over and check out his company's website@brainlabsdigital.com if you haven't had a chance to subscribe yet and you'd like a daily stream of SEO and content marketing in your app feed, be sure to hit that subscribe button in your podcast app or subscribe and like on YouTube. And we'll be back in your feed in the following day. So that's all for today. Thanks for checking out the Voice of Search podcast and we'll see you in the the next episode.