← Voices of Search // A Search Engine Optimization (SEO) & Content Marketing Podcast
Voices of Search // A Search Engine Optimization (SEO) & Content Marketing Podcast
How To Create Million-Dollar Landing Pages
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- [00:00]
Ben Jschapp
The Voices of Search Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to the Voices of Search Podcast. A member of the I Hear Everything Podcast network, ready to expedite your company's organic growth efforts. Sit back, relax, and get ready for your daily dose of search engine optimization wisdom. Here's today's host of the Voices of Search podcast, Tyson Stockton.
- [00:43]
Tyson Stockton
Hey, what's going on? My name is tyson from Previsible I.O. and joining me today is Alicia Kohlenhard, who is the CEO and co founder at Persuasion Experience. Persuasion Experience is a performance agency and Alicia has personally led 600 funnels in 120 nations.
- [01:00]
Ben Jschapp
This podcast is also sponsored by Ahrefs. What if I told you that you could monitor your website's SEO, health backlinks and organic rankings at no costs? Sounds too good to be true. Well, it's not, because my friends at Ahrefs just launched Ahrefs Webmaster Tools. Ahrefs new Webmaster Tools product quickly helps you improve your site's visibility by pointing solutions to over a hundred technical issues that might be holding your search performance down. Plus, AWT monitors for backlinks so you'll know the most linked to pages and how those links are affecting your rankings. And AWT shares what keywords your website ranks for and compares how you stack up against competitors for key metrics like search volume, keyword difficulty and traffic value. Look, monitoring your website used to require multiple expensive tools and now, thanks to Ahrefs, that's not the case anymore because AWT will help you monitor your SEO, health, backlinks and keywords for free. And no, it's not one of those 14 day free trial offers. It's a powerful site audit tool that will keep working for you for free. So check out Ahrefs webmaster tools@ahrefs.com AWT that's a H R E F S.com AWT today, Alicia and I are going.
- [02:20]
Tyson Stockton
To be discussing how to create a million dollar landing page. So with that, here's my convers with Alicia Cullen Herd, CEO and co founder at Persuasion Experience. Alicia, welcome to the podcast.
- [02:33]
Alicia Kohlenhard
Hey Tyson, thanks for having me.
- [02:36]
Tyson Stockton
So today we're kind of zeroing in on the landing page. So to kick things off, how about first we kind of just discuss like, what is kind of like the big differences between kind of that million dollar landing page and your run of the mill, okay, does great, but not really a game changer.
- [02:56]
Alicia Kohlenhard
Yes. And so we'll talk about specifically lead generation. Right. Because that's where I'm more specialized. And so when it comes to a very high converting landing page versus one that doesn't do as well, there's a few things that people get wrong. Really. At the highest level, what people get wrong is they're sending their paid ads, we'll talk about paid ads, even any other organic traffic. And they're sending their traffic to a website, to a homepage, or to even like an informational brochure page. The problem with that is it's like sending your most qualified prospects to your front desk person. Right. If we think of it like a brick and mortar store, we're sending our most qualified traffic who are at a certain stage in their buyer's journey or in their stages of awareness, and we're sending them back there. So the reframe that I want everybody to have when it comes to building our million dollar landing page is that we are creating what I call a digital salesperson or a digital appointment sett. Right. And so when you have that reframe, you start to think about the structure and what actually needs to go on the page in a very different way. So a lot of the other things that people might get wrong is it's just the opposite of what they should do to get it right. There's no clear headline, there's too many calls to action. There's no calls to action. The page is all about them. The page is boring, the page isn't clear on what they do. And ultimately when we create a really good high converting page, which I know we're going to get into the weeds on a little bit more in a second, it needs to answer what's in it for me. And so what we want to make sure we're doing in our copy and the offer and the headlines and all the sub headlines, we'll talk about that shortly, is that we are talking one to one, like a digital salesperson to the person reading this and we're showing them, hey, I understand your problem. I know this is where you want to go. And then we can position what you do as the vehicle to get there. But what most people do is they just start information vomiting what the product is or what the service is, what they do, blah, blah, blah. And there's not enough about the transformation because we're not reselling a plane ticket, we're selling the destination Right. So at a higher level, that's what I see most people getting wrong. Not to mention mobile, not optimized, the form doesn't work, it looks terrible, and all of these other like basic things we need to avoid.
- [05:15]
Tyson Stockton
That's interesting. So it's like at the most fundamental level there's almost like, and I feel like as like an SEO, you fall into the kind of visualizing, at least if I take any one page, I'm almost immediately visualizing of like, how does this fit within the hierarchy of the site and within this typical kind of like tree map where it's like instead of thinking it from a coverage like internal website structure, it's more of like what is the specific objective or viewpoint of the consumer and ensuring that's brought into the page and then worrying about maybe where it fits within structurally to the website or whether or not it's one page versus two pages. But it's kind of, you're saying use that more paradigm shift of what the user's seeking rather than kind of like your internal biases of this is everything I got to get across.
- [06:10]
Alicia Kohlenhard
Yes, totally. Because we're optimizing for humans, right? That's what we have to do. And so when I look at marketers, they sit somewhere in this equation, psychology plus economics, times technology. And so your copywriters might be in your psychology, your media buyers might be in your economics, and then your SEO can often be in your technology. And so we have to be aware, we think in different ways. And so we need the whole equation to make it work. And the way that I look at marketing is it's just inputs and outputs, right? Garbage in, garbage out. And the most important thing, if we think of it, all we're doing in marketing is it salesmanship at scale. That's all it is. So if you don't understand the target market, the person, because we're optimizing for humans and you start to over optimize for your H1s and God, I'm going to show how long I've been out of the SEO game. But your H1s and stuff like that, and you're not thinking about the human, then you're not going to get the end goal, which is to make money, Right? The goal is not necessarily to rank, the goal is to make money. And I think a lot of people forget that even in the paid ads game, which we're in, they get really obsessed with getting higher conversion rates on the landing page on the lead magnet. The problem is, yeah, I can, I can do That I can make things convert super, super high. But when we're creating lead generation systems, our goal is not to get leads, our goal is to get buyers. And so what we have to think about it as is a whole marketing and sales machine. Most marketers are there just looking at what they do in a silo and that's it. They're like, okay, my job as an SEO is to get this many rankings. Okay, my job as the media buyer is to get this many leads, this many visitors, whatever. Right? That's not it. Your job as a marketer is to support the business goals. So your job as a marketer is to deliver ROI and to deliver qualified leads that actually turn into a buyer. And I think as marketers we can easily forget that because we get so caught up in doing good marketing that the whole point of marketing is to find people, strangers on the Internet to help them and to help the business to grow and be profitable.
- [08:20]
Tyson Stockton
So with that, let's say we went through the process, we identified. Okay, this is like the Persona that we're targeting. These are kind of the pain points. This is like their experience, what they're looking for on the page. How should we go about kind of like crafting that into more of like action item steps for whether it's design, engineering, like what other aspects of like page creation.
- [08:48]
Alicia Kohlenhard
Awesome. So if we've done good research and we understand our target market, we understand what's their crappy before state, what's their desired after state, how do they articulate things in their language? Right. We've got to make sure that it's free of our jargon. And even when you're doing SEO, it has to talk to them. It has to feel like a one to one. Otherwise if you go too hardcore with keyword stuffing or the page isn't going to convert, it's going to rank, but it's not going to convert. Right. And these are like the competing goals that we sometimes have. So once you have this good research and once you understand your icp, it's very detailed, then you can start to map out the landing page. So with the landing page, typically if anyone's read Breakthrough Advertising, there's technically five levels of awareness. But I'm going to talk about three of them. Number one is problem aware. Okay, I have a problem, but I'm not aware of any solutions. I'm not looking for a solution, but I'm finally aware of my problem. So as an example, I have a cough. Why do I have a cough? And how do I fix this bloody problem that I have. So that's problem aware. Then there is going to be solution aware. I have a cough because I have bronchitis. Now I'm looking at, should I go to a doctor, should I get cold medicine, should I get cough syrup? I'm looking at different alternatives. That's the solution aware. And then there's going to be the product aware. So I have a cough, I know it's bronchitis, I know I want cough syrup. And now I'm looking at brand A, brand B brand C brand. Now this is a very, very important concept to grasp in marketing because all we're trying to do is enter the mind, the conversation going on of the target market. So before we make our page, this is crucial, we have to understand where are they in these conversations? Because how you talk to somebody. So for me as an agency, how I talk to somebody looking for an agency who have gone, yes, I have a lead generation problem problem aware. I'm not getting enough qualified leads to solution aware. I could hire in house, I could hire an agency, I could DIY it to product aware. I want an agency. And I'm looking at persuasion, experience versus this versus this. Those are three very different conversations to have. And those. And that, that decision and that understanding directly impacts the most important part of your landing page, which is your offer, right, the offer. What is that irresistible offer to get them to take the next step with you. So I'll come back to answer your question more succinctly. What goes on the pages? But this is very important, foundational how to think before we do, how to do. It's like, this is how we need to think, right? And a lot of people, part of my Australian, they kind of shit out landing pages like it's an afterthought, right? But your traffic is worthless unless it converts. It's the post click that makes all the money. And so once the ad or the Google click gets the click, then what? Now how are we going to make money? And that's where this offer comes in. So we need to make sure that we have the most valuable offer. But when we think of an offer, we have to think, okay, what's the next micro step? We're not trying to do this big knockout punch, drag them back to our caves and try and sell them something. We're trying to think cool for where they are in those stages of awareness. What's the next micro step? Where do I take them next? What is going to be the offer? And so I can unpack those, but there's basically two different offers you can use at a high level. Two different offers in lead generation. There's the consultation offer for when they're problem aware, solution aware ish, and then there's the ready now offer for when they're solution aware, product aware ish. That's kind of how they overlap. And then once you understand that, you can get into the structure. But I'll pause there and I'll give you the talking sticks. So I'm not monologuing for ages. And then I can get into structure from there.
- [12:37]
Tyson Stockton
No, no, I think that's it's perfect context that's needed from this because it's like, I think the difference between maybe good versus great are is this kind of like minutia detail of like, how well did you really capture that need and like how well did you really align to it? I think the two offer points also makes a ton of sense and having that kind of step by step progression. But I want to continue the monologue, like what comes next? Let's say we've aligned on, we've chosen kind of the first offer. Let's go with the consultation piece. So now we know what objective we want them to do at this stage of their kind of like journey, how do we can kind of transition forward.
- [13:27]
Alicia Kohlenhard
Awesome. So to also just illustrate the offers with a story. I'll quickly do that because that's sometimes the feedback. What's like, what's an example of these offers? Right. So we brought on a little while ago a client who does hair transplants. And I use him frequently because we work a lot in the finance space and not everyone understands it. So it's like, hair transplant, you are going bald, you want hair transplant, yes or no? Everyone gets it. Right. And this client was running Facebook ads and he came from another agency and that agency was running Facebook ads to a ready now offer on hair transplants. And all of the ads are about, hey, get your hair transplant. It's this amount of money. Get this amount off, whatever the problem is. Because we all know now that they're not there. Yeah, they're either problem aware. I'm starting to bold. What do I do? What do I try? How do I like, protect my hair? Or their solution, aware. I know I'm balding, I know I want to stop it, but should I get laser? Should I go to Turkey? Should I do this? Should I do this? And they're examining, they're not in a ready now. So that offer didn't work. What happens was when we brought on that client, we called it the save my hair consultation and treatment plan because the sales process needs to diagnose and prescribe. Right. But on Google Ads, when we run Google Ads for this client, we don't say that because that would be taking people in the wrong direction. And so what we say is, you know, best hair transplant doctor in Melbourne, number one, we've done this many hair transplants. Get this bonus when you do your hair transplant with us, because that's the conversation just to illustrate that with the offer, because that affects the first section on your landing page, the most valuable real estate on your landing page, which is the above the fold, AKA before somebody starts to scroll. Although once somebody in SEO made fun of me of using the words above the fold. Apparently that's like old school way and he's like, you still call it above the fold. So if anyone here is from SEO and you gonna laugh about that, don't. Don't laugh at me. Is that a thing?
- [15:22]
Tyson Stockton
Well, for someone from SEO, that is not a problem at all about saying above the fold. Like there still is value in it.
- [15:30]
Alicia Kohlenhard
Okay, I'm still cool with all of your SEO people then.
- [15:34]
Tyson Stockton
Yeah, you're good.
- [15:35]
Alicia Kohlenhard
Anyway, so above the fold, we all know what it means. It's the first panel on the page and that needs to be congruent with what got the click. This is. Doesn't matter. I'm. I might leverage paid ads a lot because that's where I specialize. But it's the same for organic, right? Same, same. What was in the click and is that in the headline now for you guys doing Google Ads, SEO, Google stuff, you're usually pretty good at that because that's the whole game is how do we match that keyword or that searcher intent above the fold. So that needs to be in the headline. So we think of above the fold like this. We usually have a very clear headline which matches in the keywords or the searcher intent. I'll give a few things away. At the end. I have like a bunch of headline templates that people can use. But a very simple template is what we do, who we do it for, and how it benefits you. That's it. Like if you need something simple to set as your control, do that. Then you'll have a bit of a sub headline and then you'll have your call to action. So I will read an example of that hair transplant doctor. So actually I'll do a different one. This one is for a construction company. What we have above the fold is apply for your champagne design consultation with Dallas's top remodeling and additions firm. On time and on budget guarantee. Every home design is unique and on trend. Design to construction. We look after everything. Call to Action 1 Call to Action Apply for your free design consultation and on your landing page, the above the fold is where you should put pretty much all of your effort. And in that headline I've seen people when we coach them or through our programs they make a headline change. And his name was John and this was on a remodeling client and the conversion rate went from like it was like 3 or 4% to 16% and then the CPA went from like 100 and something to $24. Sorry the CPL, which is just a huge change. So that's where we should put in all of our effort. So section one is that above the fold? What do they first see and how do we get them to keep reading? The next section then is what we.
- [17:38]
Ben Jschapp
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- [19:08]
Tyson Stockton
I want to kind of like double down on like the SEO application side of this too. Yeah, because I mean most of the listeners going to be coming from that angle. There's a clear advantage to also following in These same best practices, because if we're engaging the user, they're staying on the page. We all know that the user engagement metrics are also direct and indirect ranking factors in how our page will perform. And so if we follow these best practices from a landing page experience, we're also going to be keeping the user satisfying their questions, which is then in turn going to help our same rankings. So I just wanted to kind of like double down and saying like, you know, more for the listeners out there. Like it does. It's not a paid piece. Like, it's both a beneficial between paid and SEO. And the better that we're able to grab kind of the user, the audience in a sense, the better it is for our rankings as well as the overall conversion rate.
- [20:14]
Alicia Kohlenhard
And it's like things like algorithms, platforms, they come and go, right? Whatever. We've seen it all before, especially in SEO, you guys are getting slapped around frequently with different changes, right? And things are changing very rapidly and especially in this world of AI. But what's the one thing that hasn't changed for hundreds and hundreds of years and isn't going to change for hundreds more? Psychology and human behavior. And so I think even when I'm doing content or paid ads, we're trying to like clock these algorithms, right? Like, but we forget the algorithms are people. The algorithms are based on people's interactions. And so that foundational, just understanding how people think and why they do things is the most important part of marketing, whether it's SEO or paid ads or it doesn't matter or content marketing. Right? Like understanding what's going to be valuable to somebody because you can, you can rank the shit out of a page, right? Like anybody listening to this is probably really good and can rank the shit of it out of a page. But that's not the goal. The goal is to get somebody to take an action. So when you intertwine it with some of these things that we're talking about, this template can very easily be an SEO page. And imagine how more powerful your SEO is, is when you're sending that target traffic to this digital appointment set. All right, like, and if you imagine if you had the right offer tide to every single stage of SEO, because we work a lot in Google Ads. Same, same, but different. It's just, we're just putting, getting placed in different, different sections, right? Like fundamentally, I know, like technically it's different. Okay, so we have the above the fold, then we have the lead. That's going to be the first section on your page. Again, this is going to depend where they are in those three stages of awareness. When we're doing colder traffic, like meta ads, for example, we'll have a link, longer story lead. We'll have a longer story lead. And all of our leads, they follow the same framework. Problem, agitate, solve, pas, right? Very common copy framework. And then a lot of proof that's always on our pages. And I'll get to that in a second. So we have a longer story lead for colder traffic because why? Because they're in problem aware or solution aware. They don't know what they want. So we have to like take them on a journey. Yes, I understand you. This is where I was too. And here's where I'm going to take you, blah, blah, blah. But if they're in more solution product aware, they typically have a bleeding neck. So as an example, when we work in B2B funding, I'm not going to create a page for Google Ads. When somebody types in invoice funding. And then it's like, here's why you have cash flow issues and like trying to take them on this. It's like, yeah, girl, I know, can you give me money or not? Because I know the conversation in their head is how much can I get, how quickly can I get it, and what are the rates, right? And so if I start to take them on this long journey, it doesn't make sense. The best example of this, like this offer and this lead and this temperature of traffic is imagine your toilet is overflowing. Disgusting, right? And you head to Google and you type in emergency plumber near me. And then you click and you're like, get in here and you fix this. You click somebody's link and it takes you to a lead magnet that says, 5 reasons why your toilet might be overflowing. That's not the right next step. Like that's that. See, it's annoying. You know it's annoying, right? It's like, that's not the right next step. And so for SEO, and I had so many debates when I used to do a lot more websites, right? And then in an agency, the SEO person would come in and ruin the page, no offense, SEO people, because they would start stuffing all these keywords in. And so it's like, how do we find this delicate balance of persuasion, psychology and actually moving people? But with the SEO goals of rankings and getting it found, so we have the above the fold, we have the lead depending on the temperature of traffic, a colder temperature, you'll do a bit more of a longer lead. And why do we do a bit more of a longer lead and not rely on the rest of the page? Because if you watch anything on Microsoft Clarity or vwo, and I've watched like, I don't even want to know how many crawl sessions and heat maps, like it must be thousands of hours or something. Discussion. And most people are going to get from above the fold to lead. Maybe 50 to 30% of people are going to make it past that. Right. So what goes on below the page becomes less and less relevant because less and less people are going to see it. So what we want to do is this is why we sort of get everything in the lead. I understand you. This is your problem. Yes or no. This is how it's impacting your life. This is where you want to go. This is the solution. We have. Read on if you want to learn more. Good. Now we've actually been able to present what we're doing quite quickly to the above the fold.
- [24:44]
Tyson Stockton
So it's like, I mean, 80, 20 rule. If you're hitting that first portion of the page, that's going to be obviously the greatest impact to what we're driving after. And that later portion, it's great. We should be optimizing it, but it's not necessarily something that's like, should have equal amount of focus on because by nature you're going to have less people seeing it.
- [25:10]
Alicia Kohlenhard
Yeah, exactly. And so I see people doing split tests, optimizations, and it's the 7, 8, 10th panel on the page. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I'm saying that is that the highest impact on the page? Probably not. The highest impact is going to be where most people are seeing it and where most people are engaging with the page, which is why it's typically the headline. As David Ogilvie would say, you spend 80 cents of every dollar on your headline. And that's old school marketing, right? Like newspaper marketing. But it still holds true today that headline. I've seen like the shifts in what we can do in a headline. It's crazy.
- [25:48]
Tyson Stockton
And I think I feel like this topic for SEOs out there should be super interesting because everything that you're saying, describing like I would argue is also a positive like SEO factor. And so it's like for me, if I'm playing, whether I'm the in house SEO or even like as a consultant to the company, if I'm hearing this, I'm just thinking, well, great, I can just kind of like that's one more person that's going to help evangelize for what I would want to do with the page rather than like, oh, this is going to be kind of contradictory. And I mean and as a side step too, I'd say like it sounds like in the past maybe you haven't had the best SEOs working with you because if those are the approaches, I've.
- [26:34]
Alicia Kohlenhard
Also worked with very good ones as well. And that would be the same for any job role. There's some that. Yeah. So I'm always very open to learning more. But don't mess with my headline SEOs. That's the problem.
- [26:48]
Tyson Stockton
Well and that's why I'm kind of teasing on it. It's like, I mean headline in our case also matters but it's like we want our term in there, but also we want that click through rate to be high as well. And so personally I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna pull from whatever like whatever's working in paid I want to adapt into the page that I have that I'm working on, you know, trying to perform in organic because it means one paid is way easier to run a B testing. So it's like you can test variations of the title like very, very easily. I can take then the winning ones and use it on the organic page which is going to take a lot longer to run a test and everything else from. So it's like there's so many parallels that it's always kind of baffled me why there's less collaboration between the teams because I would be looking at it more of like great, that's one more ally that I have kind of helping carry the banner forward.
- [27:51]
Alicia Kohlenhard
Yes. And this is the thing like SEO is just very similar to Google Ads. Right. Like you have to do in terms of like how I think about it, it's like, okay, there's the keywords and so even from our point of view, when we do a Google Ads campaign, we make sure that's all in there because we're going to get our quality score up. It's got to be congruent with what got the click. Some of the issues that I've had with people in SEO and I've worked with like some of the best in the world, so not them but they'll like it's keyword stuff stuffing. Right. And so I'll read back the copy when they've gone in and bastardized my beautiful landing page and it doesn't even make sense to read anymore because they've gone so hardcore and over optimizing to this algorithm that now when a human comes there and all we're doing is optimizing for human experience, that's, that's what the algorithm wants you to optimize for. Because that's no matter what changes they make, they're always just trying to get somebody to stay on a page and find it valuable. That's always what it's going to be, right? Then it no longer makes sense. So, yes, that's my beef with SEOs, but I've also worked with some of the best and it's like the most impressive skill ever. And above the fold. Lead section. Ready to keep going? When you're ready, of course.
- [28:58]
Tyson Stockton
Well, before we jump into kind of the next one, I'm going to put a kind of hard stop on it where we're going to leave everyone with a little bit of a cliffhanger. But tomorrow we're going to continue this conversation and we're going to kind of really dive into what are these remaining elements that have to work with on the page. Kind of going past that above the fold, content and portion. If you can't wait until the next episode and you'd like to learn more about Alicia, you can find a link to her LinkedIn profile in the show notes or go on over and visit her company's website@ persuasionexperience.com okay, thanks to.
- [29:35]
Ben Jschapp
Tyson Stockton, our guest host. If you'd like to get in touch with Tyson, you could find a link to his LinkedIn profile in our show notes. You can contact him on Twitter where his handle is TysonStockton. Or if you're team is interested in SEO consulting or organizational education, you can always head to their company's website, which is Previsible IO that's P R E V I S I B L E I O. And a special thanks to Ahrefs for sponsoring this podcast. Monitoring your website used to require multiple expensive tools, but that's not the case anymore, thanks to Ahrefs because they just launched their Ahrefs Webmaster Tools product which monitors your SEO health, helps you keep track of your backlinks, and gives you the insight into what keywords are performing for free. So check out Ahrefs webmaster tools@ahrefs.comAWT that's Ahrefs a h r e f s.comAWT just one more link in our show notes I'd like to tell you about. If you didn't have a chance to take notes while you were listening to this podcast, head over to voicesofsearch.com where we have summaries of all of our episodes and contact information for our guests. You can also subscribe to our weekly newsletter, and you can even send us your topic suggestions or your marketing questions, which we'll answer live on our show. Of course, you can always reach out on social media. Our handle is voicesofsearch on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, or you can contact me directly. My handle is Ben Jschapp B E N J S H A P and if you haven't subscribed yet and you want a daily stream of SEO and content marketing insights, your podcast feed. We're going to publish an episode every day during the work week, so hit that subscribe button in your podcast app and we'll be back in your feed tomorrow morning. All right, that's it for today. But until next time, remember, the answers are always in the data.