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- [00:00]
Tyson Stockton
The Voices of Search Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to the Voices of Search Podcast. A member of the I Hear Everything Podcast network, ready to expedite your company's organic growth efforts. Sit back, relax, and get ready for your daily dose of search engine optimization wisdom. Here's today's host of the Voices of Search Podcast, Tyson Stockton.
- [00:43]
SEO demands constant adaptation. Best practices change overnight. Algorithms evolve without warning. Tools multiply by the day. How can listening skills make you a better SEO professional? According to Moz's State of Search in 2024, 68% of SEO professionals identified effective communication with clients and stakeholders as their most significant challenge, outranking even technical implementation difficulties. This highlights the critical gap between technical expertise and the effective implementation. The problem affects everyone. In search, technical skills alone won't drive results. Communication barriers block implementation. So how can you bridge this gap and improve your SEO outcomes? This is the Voice of Search Podcast. My name's Tyson and joining us today is Donna Donahue, SEO Manager at Intellia Scientific. Intellia Scientific is one of the leaders in lab tools, equipment, and they have a strong emphasis on education and lab research. Donna, welcome back to the podcast.
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Donna Donahue
Thank you so much for having me.
- [01:51]
Tyson Stockton
It's been a while since we chatted and we had you on, so welcome back.
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Donna Donahue
I think it's been two years.
- [01:58]
Tyson Stockton
That's crazy how fast I to be honest, I'm not even sure how long we've been having this podcast.
- [02:04]
Donna Donahue
Well, I think that I was in the podcast for the first time when I had just started at Antilia.
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Tyson Stockton
Nice.
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Donna Donahue
And I had come to talk about because I had come from local SEO into E commerce and I talked about big corporate versus small local businesses which.
- [02:27]
Tyson Stockton
Are worlds apart, which, and now you're in some regards. There's still some like ecom elements in your work, but obviously in kind of, you know, quite the niche sector. But today we want to be talking about, you know, listening and elements of stakeholder management. And I feel like it doesn't matter what part of SEO that you're in, whether it's the enterprise, Fortune 500 or a startup like the ability for SEOs to collaborate with other teams, whether it's the engineering department, whether it's content, it's like we need that buy in and that involvement of other departments to be successful and So I think like the topic that we're having today is like, it's very critical across the board. So maybe to set the stage for the listeners. Like, how do you view this as one of the skill sets in an SEO's toolkit?
- [03:25]
Donna Donahue
Well, that's an interesting question because I think that listening is something that escapes all of us, right? We're so focused on our day to day and our lane that we forget what other people are focusing on or what they're doing. And that, you know, I'm not the only one, that I'm not the only one doing what I do. So I think a good example would be the relationship between the dev team and SEO, for example. And I think any SEO can appreciate this, that there's always some friction between SEO and dev. And we say, well, why can't you just do what we want to do? And the dev comes back with, why are you always breaking our stuff? We didn't have to put all of your things in our site, it would run faster. And we're saying, but it doesn't matter. I think we get caught up in our own lane. I think that I have learned by just really understanding the workload, especially at Intellia, the workload, that very large workload that our developers have to deal with. You know, there are so many moving parts to the Cole Palmer website that I can't even begin to imagine, you know, how busy they are in an 8 to 10 hour day that they're working. And I think consequently they at the same time may not understand what fills my eight hours a day, which is mostly research and looking for things to bring to them to fix so that we can get optimal search results and at the same time trying to convey that to the team of why this is important. So I started changing my language with my dev team and some other stakeholders in the company. And rather than just saying, why won't you do this? I've started to ask what would be the potential risk? Or here's a challenge, how can we work together to resolve it? Rather than just saying, just do what I tell you to do because it needs to be done, because Google says so. And I remember a number of years ago I said that to a developer and they said, well, I don't think Google owns the Internet, but Google does own the Internet. And I feel like since I've changed my language, I feel like that working relationship is a lot more solid. So I had to listen to their frustration because they say, don't just tell us something you can't Just say, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. You need to tell us what's wrong, how you found it and a solution. And so now I never submit anything in a ticket and expect them to figure out why it's not working. I try to come up with solutions. If it's in my purview, if it's within my skill set. There are some things that I'm just, I don't write code, I don't write, I mean, I do write code, I don't write heavy code. So I can't tell you if something, if something's broken, I don't know why sometimes in the code, unless it's JSON, if it's JSON, I know why it's broken. Unless I've been pretty successful with that here in the last, I would say maybe year and a half, close to two years.
- [07:09]
Tyson Stockton
Yeah, it's like that, that ability to take a step back and understand the why. And I, it feels like a lot of people, a lot of times we get so caught up in our day to day, what we're doing, what the things we need to do that we want those kind of quick exits rather than understanding, hey, someone on the other side, like you said, may want to know why this is important, why they should prioritize it, why they should do that instead of something else. And so I think like that reflection point is a really critical element for a lot of SEOs out there. And it's really, in some ways it's not that far off than the skill set that we're already doing because in a lot of ways we're having to listen to, to the user for what questions they're asking, what things they're doing. And so I don't feel like this is like a significant stretch from like some of the fundamentals that we're already doing as SEOs.
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Donna Donahue
Right. I think it's important to you know it and other SEOs know it, but I think we get caught in the trap of assuming that because we know it, everybody knows it. And so that's where we have to come in and be educators. They don't understand the why unless we tell them the why. And I know early on in my career that was a big downfall of mine. I was like, I understand why, I'm just telling you to do it, I need it done. And I think it was because I didn't know how to explain the whys, I just knew how to do it. So you're right, listening back and forth, right?
- [08:53]
Tyson Stockton
Communication, novel concept and Looking back, like, do you remember what that tipping point was in your career? That you kind of had this mental shift? Like, was it something that you felt slowly, over time, you kind of just naturally started doing more, or was there kind of like that aha moment in your career that it really kind of clicked with you and then everything else fell in place.
- [09:26]
Donna Donahue
I don't think that there was an aha moment, unless you count the aha being that I really got tired of what I was saying falling on deaf ears and not being able to get anything accomplished. And I have to say, our director was very instrumental in helping me to, I don't know, kind of build those relationships. And he said, you know, in our arena, we are not only practitioners, but we are also communicators. And so we're educators. So we always come at things with the lens of curiosity rather than demanding. And so I try to approach everything now from that lens of curiosity rather than demanding. So I wouldn't say that there was an aha moment, but I will say that once I changed the way that I did things, I then had the aha moment. It was like, because then things started moving, I was able to get my tickets put into a priority queue instead of it just going to the circular file. And so therefore, good for the company, good for me is we've started to see, you know, huge gains. And so it was just a matter of changing my perspective. You know, they say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but you can. It just takes a little bit longer.
- [11:05]
Tyson Stockton
Totally. Totally. And I mean, it sounds like from that description that it was, you know, you got that positive reinforcement, and so you made the switch, then you saw the reaction from it, and then it's like you're further encouraged and motivated to then lean into it farther. And I think that's something that's like. It does tend to, I think, come a little bit more natural as people have been in the industry for a little bit longer. And I think typically, people that are earlier in their careers, that seems to be more of a challenge is the that ability to work with such variety of stakeholders and then to be able to understand what each of them is wanting. And I think oftentimes, again, you just have to take that step back and kind of there's just a human element. Even though we are in a very analytical industry and field.
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Donna Donahue
I think, too, if I could give anybody, like one, it's somebody you mentioned, people just entering into the field. It took me a lot of years to figure this out, but you have to swallow your pride. Until you swallow your pride, you cannot be an effective listener. I lied. There was an aha moment for me early on. I used to be very annoyed at the people who were like, I'm too good to help you and, you know, figure it out on your own. Like, the pure arrogance of some people in our field. And it was very annoying to me because I was like, I'm just trying to learn like the rest of you. We all started somewhere and somebody had to have helped you. You didn't just wake up and know how to do this right. You went to people, you joined focus groups, discussion groups. You read a lot. And I was very annoyed by people like that. And then one day I caught myself being that person. And I didn't say that other than that one moment, because that was like, I just became the people I don't like, and my moral will not let me do that. So that was an aha moment for me for sure. Like, I did not want to be that guy.
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Tyson Stockton
How far into your career were you when that happened?
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Donna Donahue
Oh, I would say a good eight years.
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Tyson Stockton
Okay.
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Donna Donahue
But I had never treated anybody like that. I was still. It took me really about that long to really feel like I was not an imposter because of the people. The circles that I ran in are, you know, big agency owners. And these are people who I consider friends of mine. But I never felt like I was even at their level at all. So I just tried to learn everything I could from them. So I just spent the first eight years of my career feeling imposter syndrome. And then one day I was like, hey, I do know this stuff and I did it without asking anybody. And I was right. So about eight years.
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Tyson Stockton
Nice. And I think that's like a funny element of our industry is we've all fallen into this from one direction or another. And so we've all gone through those stages. And, you know, a lot of it is self learning. And thankfully, like, we have an industry that's very open and people share a lot of information. And also you have the people that are willing to grant that time. And I think that's at least for me, like, that's one of the things that I really enjoy about the industry is that. And you can always find exceptions to this, but I feel like largely there is this kind of understanding that we've all fallen into it from one place or another, and we're all going to be at different stages, and it doesn't feel quite as cutthroat as some other kind of fields or disciplines.
- [15:24]
Donna Donahue
I've been very fortunate, Tyson. I've got some people in the industry that, like I said, I do consider friends who are very well respected in our community. And they never hesitate when I drop them a line and say, hey, I want you to answer this for me, but am I on the right path? And they've never acted like I was a burden to them. Never acted like, why don't you already know this? Why are you bothering me? I'm busy, too. No, these people will take time out of their day, even if it's five minutes, or they'll say, hey, catch me at the. At this time, I'd love to talk that over with you. And so I've been very. I've been very, very lucky, very blessed to find myself in the right circles of people.
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Tyson Stockton
Well, you hit on a important component, though, is I feel like in part of, and maybe it's not exactly like listening, but in this collaboration or like, cross functional kind of work, there is sometimes that element of, I've taken this as far as I can, and if I see someone that I know has genuinely put out all that effort, I feel that much more motivated to step in, help. And, you know, and if someone immediately comes and it kind of shows that they are not willing to put out the effort, you know, it's. It kind of takes away a little bit. And I think that's like a really good piece of advice, you know, that you hit on is, you know, especially if you're up and coming, like, carry something as far as you can, it's okay to not bring it to 100%, but give it your all. And I think the person on the other side is oftentimes going to recognize that and be more apt to kind of meet you there than if you just right off the bat be like, oh, yeah, I can't do this and ask for help. It's like that, to me, has like a really significant component.
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Donna Donahue
100%.
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Tyson Stockton
Now, throughout your career, have you, have you felt like there's easier departments or teams that have come more naturally for you to work with, or have you found yourself struggling with one team for some reason, whether it's like, you know, just how you're wired or given, like, the function of their discipline?
- [17:55]
Donna Donahue
I think that I get along with most teams. I think probably the teams that I probably mesh with the most, and it's probably because I work with them the closest is our marketing team, who is responsible for a lot of the writing. And because I can do a fair bit of writing myself, I understand their struggle. And I really, with those kinds of teams, when it comes to SEO, I really go into educator mode. I listen to what they don't understand. So we go back to listening. I listen to what they don't understand. And if I don't have an answer for them right away, because I'm not a big one for rattling off something that nobody understands just to get people out of my way, I go back and I find something that is going to be an easy way for me to show them. And I love to empower people to help themselves because I'm one person, right? So the more I educate people, the better we work together. And content writers really don't understand a lot of times why you're bleeding all over their work. And so I have to be very sensitive to that. And it's like, because writers are artists, right? And you're not going to go to the Louvre and say, yeah, that Mona Lisa's a piece of garbage. You just don't want to be that person. So you have to understand each person that you're. That you're working with. Some people are very thankful for the knowledge, and they get excited about it because then they make it a challenge to try to have me not correct anything at all. And I love that. More time for me to do with what's important is for me, strategy, and not just constantly optimizing written words that people have already done. And then there are other people that get their feelings hurt. And I'm not anywhere that I'm at now. But I'm just talking over my career. People get. We get married to our work, right? We're proud of what we do. And so there are some people who are just like, well, I'm not changing it. And then it's like, well, okay, tell me why. That is one thing I had to listen to. It's like, tell me why. Convince me why you shouldn't change it, and then I'll show you the data that tells you why you should. And then. But I haven't run across that many people. That's the exception, not the rule. So I think that that's the teams that I work closest with, content writers and general marketers. And I don't mean general in that they're a jack of all trades. But I mean, you've got your traditional marketing, and then you've got digital marketing. So the team that is our counterparts, but on the traditional marketing side, that would be responsible for trade shows, and they've stepped in as content writers and things like that too. So I love our marketing team. They're great. Everything. Well, I love everybody. I mean, really, I think that I work with a really great group of people.
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Tyson Stockton
On that last piece, you hit on kind of like the traditional marketers and you used the trade show people. Now, I feel like from that you probably have a lot, even selfishly speaking, to gain, because throughout that, those events, that direct contact, they're getting that firsthand experience with the consumer, with the user, with the target, essentially, that we're going after. And so it feels like from this there's probably a lot to gain also from those teams that then you can take in and craft into your strategy, into your prioritization, or into your efforts as like an SEO.
- [22:10]
Donna Donahue
Yeah, absolutely. As a matter of fact, I've got some really good examples of that. One of our person, our lovely lady who's responsible for our fluid handling products, and I said, hey, you got a few moments that we can talk about some of these blogs that you've been sending my way? And she says, sure. I said. And so we got on a call and I said, I just want to understand where the drive is coming for, for these blogs that you're, that you're sending, because they're partially in my strategy, but they're not really on my radar. And she said, oh, well, they come from the salespeople and they come from these surveys that we send out, the voice of the customer. And so in turn, they're listening to what the customers are saying are their pain points. And so they're responding with a need for something to put out on the web. And then I hear that, and it was very helpful for me to have that conversation because of course, all I have is my data, right? I'm not a scientist. I just have my data. It's like, here's our weaknesses, here's our weaknesses, here's our weaknesses. Here's where we need content, here's opportunity, and let's do this. And it may not be what our customers are looking for at all. So it's helpful to have those conversations. It's like, why? Where is this coming from? And then I said, oh, well, let's just move this content that you're writing, and I'll move out some of my stuff in my master content calendar, and we'll prioritize your stuff, because that's what our customers are asking for. And then, same thing with the trade shows. They go and they hear what people are needing. They come to me and they say, do we have content? On our site that backs us up, the answer is either yes or no, or is it good content or is it bad content? And so we have to go and look at it and say, well, no, we're lacking that content and unless I have that communication with those teams, I really won't know. I'll just be putting out a lot of stuff that people are writing about and stuff that people aren't looking for and therefore what happens or our organic search goes down. So it's been an eye opening thing for me.
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Tyson Stockton
Interesting jumping back like a little bit, you hit on the piece of education and within this theme of listening, I think knowing where that other audience's starting point is then allows you to craft, whether it's analogies, comparisons. Typically when you're learning you need to pair something new with something familiar and then you're building on top of that. But you have to kind of start with that fundamental piece and within kind of like the toolkits of SEOs. I feel like that's such a fundamental piece because it's getting back to kind of what you were saying earlier of like, well, it's the why it's describing it. You're having to bring them along this journey with you and if you don't know where they're at, then how would you know where or how to talk with them? Have you found any other kind of tricks or tips that you'd have for the listeners on how to effectively educate others outside of SEO?
- [25:53]
Donna Donahue
I think providing them with a pathway to success. So it's one thing to give them a topic that they need to write about because we're lacking content in this area. Like fluid handling is fairly new product for us. And it's one thing for me to say, hey, we need to write an article about this and then I don't get anything. And I had to figure out why am I not getting anything? It's because they don't know what I'm asking them for. I just assume that if I tell them to write about this topic that they're going to know how to write about it. Well, that was wrong on my part because they're marketers, they are more knowledgeable than I am about their products for sure, but in uncovering that, that they really just didn't know what I was asking for. I developed a way to, rather than backwards go through their content and look for keywords. I created a very succinct content brief that everybody has found very helpful and it, it breaks down potential headings, even if they change up the heading. They know which keywords need to go in the, you know what the focus keyword is for that heading. I give them suggestions of things to write about in the blocks of content. I provide all the keywords up front. And then evens in the world of AI, of course, and AI overviews, I have started to include in my content briefs tips to appear in AI overviews, how we should structure these pieces of content, either a how to, and then of course I'll submit FAQ schema and things like that. But once I did that, I started getting probably more content than I could keep up with to publish. So just providing them that pathway to success and so they feel good about it. I feel good about it because I'm not having to continually remind people that we don't have enough fresh content on our site because now I'm getting that fresh content on a regular basis and it was just providing them a very simple tool that they could use and check off the boxes. Okay, so if I start with this header and then I fill in the blanks after each header and then I even give them bullet points, you know, try this, this, this is what you need to talk about in this topic. And you know, they don't. And I always tell them this is not a black and white thing, this is a suggestion. But make sure that you use these components, how you do it. I don't, I don't care, I'm not the writer. Just use, make sure that you use these because that's what people are looking for. And don't use it 500 times, please and thank you.
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Tyson Stockton
That's great advice because. And then it's, it's fueling. It's like creating that flywheel, which I assume like, and they're busy, but I assume when you first went into that, that probably took more effort, more time, but then in the long run it definitely, I would assume, saved quite a bit of time because now you have that the floodgates are open on this content coming towards you.
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Donna Donahue
Oh, for sure. And I did spend a lot of time in the front end developing a system and now when they say, they come to me with a topic, they say, can you provide me a content brief for this topic? And it's just like clockwork now. I built an entire master set of keywords and set up a. I connected ChatGPT to SEMrush's API. And so I'm able to constantly get fresh Data from my ChatGPT when I need some, something new. And you know, to make sure because one day one type of balance might be the hot thing, and then two months from now, a different another. You know, burners and hot plates might be the big topic. So it's just like constantly moving. So, yes, lots of work on the front end. But now it's like, it's, it's, it's so nice. Like I said when we, when we started the conversation, I said, I really love to be proactive and not reactive. And so this helped me help them be proactive rather than reactive.
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Tyson Stockton
I couldn't agree more with that. I think it's such great advice, kind of for the listeners out there. Well, that's going to wrap up this episode of the Voice of Search podcast. Thanks again to Donna Donahue from Atelier Scientific for joining us. If you'd like to contact Donna, you can find a link to our LinkedIn profile in the show Notes. Or for more information on Atelier Scientific, you can find them@intellia.com if you haven't subscribed yet and you want a daily stream of SEO and content marketing knowledge in your podcast feed, hit that subscribe button on your podcast app or on YouTube and we'll be back in your feed in the following days. All right, that's all for today. Thanks for stopping by my Voice of Search and we'll see you in the next episode.