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- [00:00]
Tyson Stockton
The Voices of Search Podcast is a.
- [00:03]
Podcast Network Announcer
Proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice.
- [00:19]
Tyson Stockton
Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to the Voices of Search Podcast. A member of the I Hear Everything Podcast network, ready to expedite your company's organic growth efforts.
- [00:32]
Podcast Network Announcer
Sit back, relax and get ready for your daily dose of search engine optimization wisdom.
- [00:38]
Tyson Stockton
Here's today's host of the Voices of Search podcast, Tyson Stockton. We're all facing rapid changing landscapes in online discoverability. Small and mid sized businesses face same challenges of showing up in AI overviews, AI mode and ChatGPT, and so on. So here's the challenge. SMBs often don't have the deep tech stacks, large budgets or teams that enterprise brands do. Even yet, the expectation to win in this new era of AI powered search is the same. This is the Voice of search podcasts and joining me today is Helen Pollitt, director of SEO at iStock. Helen brings a deep expertise in organic search strategy and AI driven content. Today she's going to be unpacking how SMBs can thrive in the new era of search. With that, welcome to the podcast. Helen.
- [01:25]
Helen Pollitt
Hello. Glad to be here.
- [01:27]
Tyson Stockton
Great to have you. I mean, I'm interested in the conversation too because I think personally I tend to skew and maybe it's just past experience towards like the enterprise side and you know, it's its own beast and you have politics. But then you do have advantages that sometimes come with that too, whether it's resources, access to technology. And so I think like the game is obviously a little bit shifted but yet, you know, smaller businesses are still having to keep up in the same pace. So maybe like before we dive too much into like the SMBs, like how are you viewing the landscape shifts, like how is search kind of evolving in your perspective?
- [02:08]
Helen Pollitt
I'm so excited. I'm so excited we I've been in SEO for 9 billion years and for the least the last 8 billion of those, not much really has changed that dramatically. But I feel like we're on the cusp of something quite significant. And if you have been in SEO or around digital marketing for that length of time, it starts to feel a little bit rote if we're not careful. So it's exciting to have this big shake up that two years ago no one really cared that much about LLMs and ChatGPT. And what is a perplexity, AI but now it's all we seem to be talking about. And I'm excited because I think it's going to be the great leveler for us. We've seen through the evolution of Google and the other traditional search engines that there have been, brands have done really well in those kind of environments. And bar disastrous algorithm update, they continue to do very well in those environments. But what we're seeing in the LLMs is actually that those same brands aren't necessarily performing as well in these other platforms. So it gives a chance for those smaller brands to actually start to get a bit more traction, a bit more visibility. So I personally am quite excited to see what the future holds. As long as my brands is one of the ones that's doing well.
- [03:20]
Tyson Stockton
Of course, naturally. Naturally. I mean, one with that too. It's like I love hearing the optimism from it because it's like too many times you hear like the same narrative of a SEO's dying and whatever the industry is moving on. It's like you kind of hear that same narrative every so often. People complain about like, changes to traffic, whatever else, but I feel like that's also the exciting part, is that there is something new, there's some change, it's a new problem to solve. And to your point too, it's like we've seen over the last, I don't know, 10 to 5, 10 years or so, like this, like, growing trend of more and more traffic going to, like, the larger brands. And so I also do see this as like an opportunity for companies that maybe can move quicker and can mobilize faster in this new direction.
- [04:07]
Helen Pollitt
Absolutely, absolutely. And there's One thing about SMBs or smaller companies is that they do have that ability to pivot a lot quicker. If you've ever experienced startup life, then, you know, everything pivots every three months, it feels. So actually there is that opportunity to really go where the growth opportunities are. You're not having to steer a massive ocean liner, you've got a little dinghy that you're able to move quite swiftly. And I think that's very exciting. It's a good position to be in.
- [04:35]
Tyson Stockton
And I want to get into like, content forms. And it's like, I think one of the things is we've had so much conversation in the industry around just written copy. It's dominated a lot of the headlines as far as with generative and LLMs coming out. But like, I think we're also in the midst of landscape shift as far as where we are competing. We're also Seeing kind of more dynamic elements of like how content is interpretive or like how, like what is content also in this like multimodal world. So like how and being a nice doc, like you have obviously like a play in this from like the brand value and positioning. So like how are you viewing kind of those different media types within search now?
- [05:22]
Helen Pollitt
Yeah, so important. We're very visual beings, humans and it's almost like through the rise of social media, quick form content that we're almost sort of becoming programmed to expect very visual content when we're using the Internet. So I see it becoming more and more important and being able to stand out using visual content is going to become increasingly important, especially within the LLM platforms because they're a new way of discovering information. So it's almost like a brand new frontier for us and I think that means that we, we have to approach it from all angles. Yes, content as in written copy is going to be very important, but so is still images or videos or other forms of media. And we need to consider all of that within our strategies. Otherwise potentially we're missing quite a huge portion of how people interact with the Internet. And we've got the opportunity now, we've got the opportunity with the rise of GEO and AI discovery to, to really make an impact there.
- [06:20]
Tyson Stockton
And would you consider that as being part of the mix then for smaller players as well? We know the bar is lowered in the sense of content creation. Do you feel like in image and other areas there's added opportunity now than in the past for smaller brands?
- [06:39]
Helen Pollitt
Absolutely, I very much do because there is a lot of opportunity to source really good illustrative content through still images or video content from I don't know, gosh, platforms such as iStock. But that enables people to access this high quality imagery very easily. And by being able to do that, of course you've then got the opportunity to use that within your content and that can then get picked up on the LLMs. And whereas I think sort of 15, 20 years ago the web search is very much dominated by written content. But the advent of social media platforms meant that smaller players are actually able to make a real name for themselves by adopting more of a visual content first strategy. And I can see that continuing on with AI discoverability, AI search. And so I do, I really do feel like it gives smaller brands the opportunity to differentiate themselves in a way that perhaps larger brands aren't really addressing yet. They've got this wealth of content, written content on their website potentially, but they've not necessarily considered more of the visual aspect of it. Whereas the smaller brands may well have gone visual first because they are engaging much more on social media and building a brand that way. So I think there's a real opportunity and it's one that has a fairly low barrier to entry, I'd say, which is always a good thing for SMBs.
- [08:02]
Tyson Stockton
Well, maybe with that too, then, like, how. How would you say that you think, like, these smaller brands are like. I mean, I don't want to have it separated so much as being like, big brands, smaller brands. But it's like, yeah, if you have, you know, website under 10,000, 5,000 pages and you're kind of in that range, like, how would you be viewing and how are you thinking about where and how these brands should compete?
- [08:28]
Helen Pollitt
Yeah, I think the first step needs to be understanding who your audience is and where are they going to find content that you have on your website or products and services that your brand offers. Because there's no point addressing social media, for example, if your demographic does not use that particular social media platform. There's no point really investing heavily in AI discovery if your demographic just doesn't use AI for things. So it's about understanding your audience. Where are they going to find out about brands like yours? And addressing that as your first point of the strategy, but also keeping an eye on how that will change over time. Because, yes, AI might have a slower adoption in some demographics than others, but that doesn't mean that it's not being adopted at all. And that could increase over time. So it's understanding your audience, and that's always got to be the center of any marketing strategy. Who is your audience? Where are they going to find your brand, and making sure that you are available there in all of the ways that you can be.
- [09:30]
Tyson Stockton
I love that you hit on the piece of like, time too, because, yeah, if you're looking just at a snapshot of traffic today, it's going to give a very different story than kind of like the overall trend lines. Like, how do you think about, like, keeping track of this and monitoring and like, how would you advise that someone revisits this rather than just having kind of like, okay, yeah, it's a small portion of my traffic today.
- [09:55]
Helen Pollitt
I would include it in your. However frequently you do your SEO reporting, But I would increase. I would include it within your SEO reports. So say you report monthly. It should have its own portion of your report dedicated to what is going on with LLMs. How are they sending traffic to our site? Are they sending traffic to Our site is that traffic converting. If they're not sending traffic, are we still visible within them? What's the sentiment? Are people speaking positively about our brand or negatively about our brand? Because traffic referral is not the only metric that we should be concerned about. We should also be concerned about sentiment. We can appear in the LLMs as an answer, but it could be surrounded by, do not use this brand. It's terrible. Here are all the negative reviews about it. That's not a good thing. Whether it sends traffic to your site or not, that's not a good thing. So even if at the moment you're not seeing a lot of traffic, that doesn't mean there's not things going on in the LLM platforms themselves that you need to be keeping an eye on.
- [10:50]
Tyson Stockton
And kind of going back to, like, touch points. Here is we start with audience, like you mentioned, so we understand kind of like where they are, how they're interacting, consuming it, keeping that kind of progress of how it's like, evolving over time. Are there, like, additional complexities for maybe like, SMBs that have a heavy, like, local presence? Like, what are their kind of challenges? Challenges do you see this type of business facing?
- [11:19]
Helen Pollitt
I think always with local businesses that have a really strong local presence and perhaps a lot of their visibility is actually generated through word of mouth. It's being able to track offline impacts in the same way that you can track online impact, which is difficult to do. And I think that's very much a problem for companies that have only a local focus. For example, bakeries, it might be that you notice that you've had an increased footfall in your bakery, but you don't necessarily know why. You don't necessarily know what has led to people hearing more about you. And I think that's been an eternal struggle. And we've tried to address that through things like, well, let's monitor reviews. Are people saying, speaking more positively about us? Have there been complaints recently, that sort of thing? Trying to understand the general feeling around your brand. And I would suggest that being able to monitor sentiment within LLMs is another good way of doing that, because people may well be reviewing you on review sites, and those review sites are feeding into the LLMs, and that's how they're able to identify whether your brand is considered positively or negatively. So being able to get an idea of how your brand is being spoken about through those LLMs gives you a good understanding of the general opinion of your users as to whether they value your brand or not. It's a lot harder to do than it is for brands that are primarily online so E commerce stores because you just don't have the same level of visibility. But I do think the LLMs are actually opening up another way of you sort of testing the general feelings around your brand.
- [12:55]
Tyson Stockton
I totally agree on that and I feel like you, you hit on an element too that like we've been discussing quite a bit is like one of the shifts that I've been seeing kind of like more and more now. I've even been giving more thought to it recently is like outside of our four walls, kind of like the off page SEO side where I feel like, you know, if you look back over the last 10 years, so much of like the conversation around content was how do you build holistic content like these like long pages that have every facet and entity of that topic that you're going after. And now to me it's, it's less about that one page and that optimizing that one perfect kind of like landing page to more of like addressing these topics across external as well as internal and even looking at more of like collections of your internal pages rather than just one. Like how do you view that kind of off site focus nowadays or in this next chapter in search?
- [13:59]
Helen Pollitt
I think it's about understanding the user touch points on your website. So long gone are the days where a person heard about your brand, went to your website and transacted straight away. We've known that there's been multi touch transactions for years. It could be that someone first discovers you through PPC advert, they come to your website, they don't buy then and there, but they remember your brand name and they come back later via an organic search. Or perhaps they've walked past your shop in town and they've seen the brand name and they think oh, I'll look that up when I get home to see what they do. There's multiple ways that people come across your brand. Like visibility isn't only online of course. But I think the most important thing, and especially in light of LLMs is about consistency of messaging. You want to make sure that your brick and mortar storefront matches up in tone in messaging to your storefront on your website. You want to make sure that you are talking about your key differentiators in the same way across your digital content as your offline content, as other people are talking about you on their digital content. Because LLMs are not just sourcing their information from your website, they're sourcing them from a lot of other places as well, so that consistency is really key because if you say for example on your website your opening hours are 9am to 5pm but on your Google business profile they're 10am to 6pm and actually on all of the local directory listings you've got a mix in between. The LLMs are not going to have any certainty over what your actual opening hours are and neither are your your customers potentially. But something that simple can have quite a compounding effect because you can't be trusted because the information doesn't match up in different places and it leads to customers being disappointed because they turned up at 9am and your store wasn't open because it only opens at 10 actually. So they left a negative review and that then compounds in terms of what the LLMs will perceive as your brand sentiment, et cetera, et cetera. So consistency of messaging piece is really key across your core kind of operating facts, but also about how other people are talking about you. How do you want to be known? Are you promoting that with every touch point that a customer has with you?
- [16:14]
Podcast Network Announcer
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- [17:43]
Helen Pollitt
I.
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Tyson Stockton
Totally agree on that. Like consistency is still such a critical factor. There's like the trust element not just on the consumer Side, but also kind of similar to we've seen in Google. My business, where it's always been kind of like name hours, phone number, address, like those consistencies so that like a hundred percent I'm on the same page with like the significance and important of it. I want to go back too to like some visual elements, because this is a space that I've obviously I've worked in, but I would say, like, it hasn't been a critical or kind of a primary focus from my son, just personal experience. What are their kind of like best practices, like ideas or opportunities, like how are you looking at visual and like the progression of that.
- [18:29]
Helen Pollitt
Yeah, and I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head a little bit there that a lot of marketers don't necessarily consider images visual content first and foremost. I mean, I don't have that luxury given the industry that I'm working in. But a lot of people do tend to sort of think of the visuals after they've really considered the content, the written content itself. But there is so much opportunity there. There's, I mean, sort of a very basic SEO level. You've got the fact that having images on your page gives you extra opportunity to really reinforce what that page is about. So by crafting the file name of that image before you've even uploaded it to include some of the sort of topics or keywords that you're hoping the page will be found for writing alt text so that both people who are using a screen reader and also the bots themselves can understand what that image is meant to be about, even if they can't visualize the image itself. It just gives you extra space really to really reinforce what that page is about. But it also helps with people's enjoyment of the page. So all of those good sort of social signals and people thinking, actually, this is a website I want to come back back to because it's got a really good range of visuals and I like the layout, I like the format of the page. And it's not just a wall of text that I'm having to scroll through. People have really considered my reading enjoyment as they've put together the design of this page. So you've got the engagement factor there as well. And that can often be overlooked. I have to admit myself, I've been guilty of that in the past, that I've really wanted to focus on kind of the technical underpinnings of the website and making sure that the content was really well structured for users and for bots alike. And not really considered, actually. How enjoyable is this PA page to read from? Are these images really illustrating the content itself? Because people we scan a lot when we're reading and the images really help to kind of summarize what the page is about for users and also for the bots. So I think that is a missed opportunity if you're not really considering the visuals that go alongside the written content. And also I feel like LLMs are getting better at understanding the content of an image. That might just be my own tin foil hat theory, but if they're not already understanding the context and content of an image, they certainly will be getting better at it over time. And again that can help you to kind of give extra context around the page because the LLMs will see that you have an image of X, Y and Z, and therefore your page is probably represented by X, Y and Z. So even if historically the bots haven't been particularly good identifying the genuine content of an image, I do feel that they will be getting better at that over time.
- [21:04]
Tyson Stockton
It's such a good point to call out that again change over time piece because I mean, I said myself, it's like, yeah, probably treated graphics more of like a checkbox or more of, hey, that's a UX kind of thing. But I do agree with just how the systems are evolving. You're going to have better understanding of images, video, and that in overall relevancy to topic prompt query, however we want to define it, I think will be more and more of a factor. And as you were describing that too, I feel like an opportunity probably lies in treating images in a similar kind of fashion as we treat content. Where we revisit pages, we refresh content, we rarely, I mean, I'm speaking for the broader SEO community here. I feel like we rarely put the same attention into images. And I feel like there'd be some really interesting kind of studies like not just monitoring search performance, but also using those KPIs like time on page, click through, rate engagement, like farther into the site. And with more and more traffic being absorbed in some of these like overview LLM experiences, it seems like that's probably a pretty good place to start if we're looking to maximize that existing traffic that we have.
- [22:30]
Helen Pollitt
Exactly. I very much agree. SEO is not just about getting people to a website. It's about considering what are they then doing once they're on the website. There's always going to be a bit of an overlap with sort of UX and CRO because we have to be conscious of is the traffic that we're sending to the site the right traffic for the site, Are they getting what they want from this website experience? And we can't just box that off as, oh, that's not my problem, that's a UX issue or that's a CRO issue. It's not. We are responsible for the traffic that we are sending to the website. And if that means really considering what is their experience when they're on the website website, are they able to get to what they want to get to, is it an enjoyable experience for them? That is critical. It is a core part of our.
- [23:08]
Tyson Stockton
Role in a lot of ways. When we zoom out and we look at the industry, I feel like SEO over the last 10, 15 years has felt more leaning more and more product driven within the organization, whether it's technology, cto, cpo. But it's been kind of going that direction. And I feel now you feel this pendulum swing that's coming back more to overall marketing principles, consumer behavior, and those lines between pr, ux. Everything's like starting to like feel more generalized again versus as pointed as I feel like SEO has been in, I don't know, the last 10 years or so.
- [23:54]
Helen Pollitt
Yeah, no one knows where to put us. It's very true. I am waiting for the day when corporations realize that actually we're our own kind of unique standalone function and we got our first chief SEO officer in a, in a business. That'll be a great day, but not one I think will happen anytime soon, sadly. But yeah, we've been part of the product team, we've been part of the technology team, we've been part of the marketing team, we've been part of the who are these people? Why are they still hassling me? Team. We've been sat everywhere within the business because we touch on so many different points of businesses. And that's even more the case with small businesses, I would say, because you've got fewer people and everyone has to wear multiple hats. So you just can't silo. You just can't silo yourself off as much as you might want to have fewer meetings. You are involved in pr, you're involved in creative decisions, you're involved in branding messaging decisions, you're involved in technology decisions and customer service decisions and everything in between. And I can't remember why I started this rant, but I do think it's very important that we recognize that SEO itself is evolving, but the companies that we sit within are evolving as well. And we need to make ourselves like A Swiss army knife. We have to be useful in lots of different ways to lots of different teams and also bring them along for the journey. Because like you say, PR is becoming very important to SEO again, not just from sort of the digital PR link building side that we unfortunately have kind of as an industry reduced PR down to, but actually in its genuine core. What is pr? Making sure that our brand is known and the sentiment is positive and that people understand our reasons for our products and our services. That is hugely important to geo and it should be hugely important to just core SEO principles. And that's something that we can't do alone. We need to bring those PR teams along on the journey so they understand the kind of direction that we're trying to go in and how it's impacting our performance. Because no team wants to push and push and push and do lots of work for another team and then never find out what the results are. So we need to be really communicating how we're doing, how the PR team's recent article on XYZ has positively influenced the perception of our brand on ChatGPT, for example, and really kind of linking those back so that those metrics are really apparent for everyone involved in that particular piece of work. That's always been the case, but I feel like it's even more so because we're yet again expanding the kind of the touch points within the business that we're sticking our noses into as SEOs.
- [26:20]
Tyson Stockton
At the end of the day, it's like SEO is still a jack of all trades type role where you have relationship building, stakeholder management, your time. And I've always said that like SEO is like if left alone by ourselves, we cannot be that impactful.
- [26:37]
Helen Pollitt
Very true.
- [26:38]
Tyson Stockton
Yeah, like we can tell you what's going on, we can give a lot of things, but we either need to be working with the developers, either doing some of the development work, working with writers, working on the work. So it's like you're either doing multiple fields or you're having to coordinate, orchestrate and bring everyone together. But if you like, what you were saying also is a nice like full circle also to the conversation because we started off talking about with this new chapter, there's this inside lane or potential angle for SMBs to take advantage of. And I feel at the same time as like practitioners, as SEOs, we also have a new opportunity to join in more of those conversations that you're mentioning to be a larger part of the organization, the brand and being that kind of like window to the consumer In a lot of ways. And so I share some of that optimism where I've heard more times from executives and C Suite people about SEO or search as a topic because it has become more of a mainstream thing. And yeah, sometimes you have to deal with some of that misguided information. And I had a conversation with a friend of mine who leads one of the larger global E commerce search teams and he was telling me of how half his team now has a new name tag instead of SEOs or some sort of SEO in their title now is Geo. And like, kind of my feelings. Great.
- [28:10]
Helen Pollitt
We like to keyword stuff, everything, don't we? Even if it's our own job titles.
- [28:14]
Tyson Stockton
Yeah, it's like fine. If changing the title name gets more recognition in the organization, great. Like, end of the day that doesn't matter. But the opportunity that I see is so much greater.
- [28:26]
Helen Pollitt
Yeah, and you're right, it's about capitalizing on that opportunity because everyone and their dog has sent me an article about ChatGPT or visibility in LLMs recently. From C Suite all the way down to teams I've never really interacted with before because everyone is really excited about it and everyone wants a little bit of ownership over it. So there's a lot of other teams I've noticed who are trying to sort of dabble in, well, how can we do X, Y and Z within this new platform? Or how can we make ourselves more visible? Or are we addressing this? And they're really keen to make sure that we are maximizing those opportunities. And that's brilliant because no one ever wants to talk to SEOs because we always just bring problems. So the fact that people are actually coming to us now and saying, I've got an idea. Have we tried? Are we considering. Is great because it's an opportunity to really evangelize the work that we're doing. And that's half the battle in the work that we're doing is getting people to understand why we're doing it. And it's not just because we're being annoying that there genuinely is output that we're expecting. And I think that really in. In the current environment where people are all curious about AI and where that's going, it's a perfect opportunity to really bring SEO back to the fore, to.
- [29:31]
Tyson Stockton
Kind of to in camp, all this, like, let's bring it back down to kind of that tactical. So someone's listening to this, they're excited of the opportunity, they've walked off the ledge, they're excited again about it. What kind of tips would you give for kind of like a 30 day action plan on an SMB to really understand where they're at and where their opportunities lie?
- [30:00]
Helen Pollitt
Yeah. And a 30 day action plan. The main bullet point is just going to be audit because I think that's what you need to do. You've got to really understand where you currently are and where are you tracking against where you want to be. So when I say audio, I'm talking about look at the technical foundations of your website. I cannot stress enough how disappointing it is when I look at SMB sites and find out that they've gone and no index their homepage or something along those lines. I was meant to be booking a hotel room for a friend's wedding a few years back and I couldn't find their website on Google because they had no index the entire website. So I emailed the hotel and said, you've no index your entire website and got zero reply. Because that's not normal conversation planning for receptionists. Like, why are you, why are you telling me this? But it is so frustrating because you're kneecapping yourself. You're cutting yourself off the knees by not having that visibility. So start with the technical foundations. Even if your website's only a few pages big, there can still be quite monumental issues in the way that the bots understand and can read and can crawl and index those pages. So start there and then have a real look over your content. Is it still fit for purpose? Is it addressing your current audience and is it addressing them in the ways that they are likely to encounter it? So have you created content that is usable if it's being shared via social media? Or is your content engaging if it is being surfaced as a snippet or an answer within an LLM? Have a look over your content and be willing and ready to rip it up and start again if it isn't meeting the needs of your users or your target audience. And those 30 days will get eaten up very quickly just by those two things. But I really do feel it is critical. And from there that good foundation you can then start to look at, well, how can we maximize our growth opportunities? But you've got to have that firm foundation first, otherwise the rest of the work is not going to yield the results that you want it to.
- [31:54]
Tyson Stockton
I couldn't agree more on that. And having that roadmap and that action plan is your starting point, but it is worth just doubling down of. Like that is the start of your work. That is kind of the table stakes of being able to know what has to be done and then you get to look forward to the rest of the work of actually bringing it to life.
- [32:16]
Helen Pollitt
Yeah, the bit that gets the results and you get to show off about.
- [32:19]
Tyson Stockton
Yeah, yeah, that's the flashier part. But it always starts with that kind of legwork and putting in that initial effort. Well, with that, that's going to wrap up this episode of the Voice of Search podcast. Thanks again to Helen Pollitt from iStock for joining us. If you'd like to contact Helen, you can find a link to her LinkedIn profile in the show notes or be sure to check out her company's website@istockphoto.com if you haven't subscribed yet and want a daily stream of SEO and content marketing knowledge in your podcast feed, hit that subscribe button on your podcast app or on YouTube and we'll be back in your feed soon. So with that, that's all for today. Look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Sam.