Voices of Search Podcast: The Fusion of SEO & CRO with AI/LLMs

Date: August 18, 2025
Host: Jordan Cooney
Guest: Sean Hinklein, Head of SEO at Apollo.io

Episode Overview

This episode explores the evolving intersection of SEO (Search Engine Optimization) and CRO (Conversion Rate Optimization) in the era of AI and Large Language Models (LLMs). Jordan Cooney hosts Sean Hinklein of Apollo.io to discuss actionable strategies for blending data-driven approaches and creativity, the real impact of automation on content and user experience, and how to leverage proprietary data with AI to deliver better business outcomes. The conversation is highly practical, focusing on tangible methods for modern content marketing, performance measurement, and building authentic human connections as automation increases.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sean Hinklein’s Background and Perspective

• Sean’s career started in journalism and evolved through various roles in SEO at organizations including MTV2, Ramp.com, Comic Con, and now Apollo.io.
• He highlights the importance of combining creativity and data-driven thinking in SEO.
• Most memorable experience: Working at Comic Con, citing the vibrant, creative community of "Artist Alley."
  Notable quote:

"As much as I love being at Apollo and Ramp and Squarespace and all of these big, big awesome names, there's nothing there that can compete to [Comic Con]." (04:17)

2. AI/LLMs and Their Impact on SEO & CRO

• The “SEO is dead” refrain is cyclical, but AI is genuinely transforming the landscape.
• AI is forcing a greater focus on user experience and content quality, not just search rankings or mass-produced content.
• Rise of “black hat LLM” as a modern iteration of spammy SEO tactics.
• Efficiency is a key benefit: AI allows for rapid execution and increases the overall velocity of marketing teams.
• Oversight and human touch are required to avoid generic, low-value outputs.
  Notable quote:

"What LLMs and AI have inadvertently done is make everybody focus on the user experience and the quality of the content." (06:30)

3. The B2B Software Perspective: Brand and Experience

• At Apollo, the primary focus is on brand recognition, value delivery, and user journey from SEO click to conversion.
• Success is not just capturing traffic but ensuring users find value, leading to meaningful conversion events.
• Clear messaging and a frictionless user experience are critical, especially in a crowded B2B space.
  Notable quote:

"If you didn't have a good quality user experience, you're going to forget Apollo ever existed. Or worse, you're going to look at Apollo and go, yeah, they're all right, but…" (10:47)

4. Data-Driven Decisions: Beyond Keyword Research

• Keywords are indicative, but not the focus; understanding intent, context, and actionable data points is more valuable.
• Apollo utilizes its massive internal dataset and LLM (Pythia) to answer highly specific sales questions (e.g., best time to call a CMO, subject line effectiveness).
• AI helps uncover patterns about engagement and conversion that traditional SEO tools miss.
• The approach is not about optimizing for LLMs directly, but about using the technology to deliver user value.
  Notable quote:

"We want to extract value for our users from these records… the global question is: If you're using Apollo and we have all of this data, how can we help you book more meetings or sell more?" (13:26)

5. Rethinking Discovery and Multi-Channel Content

• Discovery now extends well beyond Google: Email, Slack, Discord, Reddit, and affiliate partnerships are vital.
• Originality, authenticity, and human connection matter more as AI-generated, low-value content proliferates.
• Understanding life moments (“doom scrolling at 1am eating Ben and Jerry's”) helps in meeting users where they are, in the right tone and channel.
  Notable quote:

“Are they on Google all the time? Hell no. Because we're not on Google all the time.” (21:56)

6. Balancing Automation and Human Touch

• Automation provides scale and velocity, but the human element—community and real feedback—drives authenticity.
• Monitoring product analytics, testing content with real users, and refining based on real-world input are critical.
• Caution against overproduction: Mass-creating AI pages without quality controls can hurt brand and performance.
• Real value is in tailored, useful, and sometimes testimonial-driven content, not just more content.
  Notable quote:

“AI is a sweet temptress... It’s great if your numbers are down and you want 5,000 landing pages… but I can assure you from personal experience, it does not work. You got to focus on the user.” (25:47)

7. Measuring Performance in the AI Era

• AI has altered measurement priorities: Traffic is less important than impressions and AI Overviews (AIOs).
• New metrics focus on search visibility in next-gen formats (Gemini, AI Overviews), not just classic search position.
• Traditional KPIs—signups, conversions—still matter most for business, but the paths and sources are multiplying.
• Tools are emerging for tracking AI-driven discovery but are still in early days.
  Notable quote:

“What I think AI is doing is deprioritizing traffic and increasing the prioritization of impressions and AIOs… If your impressions are growing, that means Google thinks you’re relevant in certain topics.” (27:32)

8. Practical Implementation: Integrating AI into SEO Workflows

• Start with SERP analysis: Collect source code and competitive data for top results, feed into LLMs for comparison and insight.
• Use tools like ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini to analyze structural and qualitative differences in top pages.
• Supplement with data from Ahrefs/Semrush for ranking volatility and competitive gap analysis.
• Map these insights to your own strengths and avoid futile battles for entrenched keywords.
• Distribution and user experience still trump pure content quality—content must be discoverable and useful.
  Notable quote:

“This is the new version of keyword research... Make a really kick ass user experience before you’ve even started.” (33:06)

9. Staying Close to the Customer

• Continuous feedback from real users and diverse customer segments informs everything—from content creation to product onboarding.
• Internal feedback loops at Apollo (support, marketing, sales) ensure content and tools meet genuine user needs.
• Persona development and personalization remain essential, even as automation increases.
  Notable quote:

“The most important thing is setting up those inroads so that we can build community and talk to our customers... Listening to our users. Absolutely.” (36:48)

Memorable Quotes

| Time | Speaker | Quote | |--------|------------------|-------| | 06:30 | Sean Hinklein | "What LLMs and AI have inadvertently done is make everybody focus on the user experience and the quality of the content." | | 10:47 | Sean Hinklein | "If you didn't have a good quality user experience, you're going to forget Apollo ever existed." | | 13:26 | Sean Hinklein | "We want to extract value for our users from these records… the global question is: If you're using Apollo and we have all of this data, how can we help you book more meetings or sell more?" | | 21:56 | Sean Hinklein | “Are they on Google all the time? Hell no. Because we're not on Google all the time.” | | 25:47 | Sean Hinklein | "AI is a sweet temptress... It’s great if your numbers are down and you want 5,000 landing pages… but I can assure you from personal experience, it does not work. You got to focus on the user." | | 27:32 | Sean Hinklein | "What I think AI is doing is deprioritizing traffic and increasing the prioritization of impressions and AIOs… If your impressions are growing, that means Google thinks you’re relevant in certain topics." | | 33:06 | Sean Hinklein | "This is the new version of keyword research... Make a really kick ass user experience before you’ve even started." | | 36:48 | Sean Hinklein | "Listening to our users. Absolutely. But also creating content that is for them." |

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:17 – Sean’s personal favorite brand experience (Comic Con)
• 06:30 – How AI/LLMs are driving a renewed focus on user experience in SEO
• 13:26 – Using proprietary data and LLMs for CRO/SEO at Apollo
• 21:56 – Multi-channel discovery and shifting away from Google-centric thinking
• 25:47 – Balancing automation and maintaining authenticity
• 27:32 – New KPIs: From traffic to AI Overviews and impressions
• 33:06 – Step-by-step: Integrating AI into everyday SEO analysis and planning
• 36:48 – The importance of continual customer feedback and human connection

Actionable Takeaways

• Focus intensely on user experience—AI can help with scale and speed, but oversite and authenticity are irreplaceable.
• Use internal or proprietary data with AI to generate insights far beyond keywords (e.g. sales enablement tips, benchmarks).
• Broaden your definition of discovery: Experiment with channels like email, communities, and partnerships.
• Use LLMs for granular SERP and content analysis, and integrate those insights with traditional SEO tools for roadmap planning.
• Measure success with a mix of classic and emerging KPIs: Conversions still matter, but so do impressions and AI Overview placements.
• Build ongoing feedback loops inside and outside your organization to shape content, product, and strategy decisions.

This episode provides a thorough, candid look at how AI and LLMs are merging the disciplines of SEO and CRO, offering practical frameworks for thriving in a rapidly shifting landscape, while always keeping the user at the heart of strategy.