← Voices of Search // A Search Engine Optimization (SEO) & Content Marketing Podcast
Voices of Search // A Search Engine Optimization (SEO) & Content Marketing Podcast
Why Search Communities Matter More Than Ever in AI
00:49:28
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- [00:00]
A
The Voices of Search Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything podcast network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, IHeAreEverything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice then visit iheareverything.com welcome to the Voices of Search Podcast and I Hear Everything Production. In this podcast, we'll share the news, knowledge and strategies you need to navigate the ever changing world of SEO, ready to expedite your company's organic growth efforts. Sit back, relax, and get ready for your daily dose of search engine optimization wisdom. Here's today's host of the Voices of Search podcast, Tyson Stockton.
- [00:46]
B
My name's Tyson, and joining me today is Sophie Logan, community and Editorial Manager at Brighton and Hero Conference. Welcome to the podcast, Sophie.
- [00:56]
C
Hello. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to talk about this discussion.
- [01:00]
B
Yeah. And I feel like so often right now we're just talking about, like, how AI is impacting the industry. Is SEO dead? What's happening? And then there's all this kind of, yeah, like, hysteria going on around it. But I think one thing that when we were catching up before the show that really, like, stood out is both, like, leaning into that uniqueness that exists in the SEO community. And I firmly believe that. It's, like, one of the elements that, like, one I'm drawn to. But also it's like, I feel like it's something that we need to preserve because it's not like the standard professions and industries that you go to college for. And so it's like there is this unique element about the industry. So to start off with that, like, how do you view it? What's different about it? What's special? Like, how do you view the industry and, like, the community in the SEO field?
- [01:53]
C
I think, as you say, like, obviously I'm in PPC and SEO and marketing general, but my friends work in health care or, like, child care or their teachers. Not. No. None of them would spend a Thursday night down a local venue listening to someone talk about work. No one would jump on a podcast and talk about work. No one would email someone and have a zoom call with someone they've met at an event. It's such a unique thing that our industry has about helping each other and supporting each other. And sometimes I kind of have to look outside of our industry to realize that that's not very normal. And actually it's really beautiful and it's really unique and it's really important for all of us, especially as you say we become very AI driven.
- [02:37]
B
Well, and I think, like, part of it too, is like, yeah, we didn't go to school for it, but it also, like, the industry moves so quickly that it's like you have to embrace that continuous learning, continuous progression. And it's like the best and easiest way to do that is having your network, having those outside. But it's also, like, I think more willingness to do that. And I don't know if it's because, like, we all had to go through that. So it's like, there's that already, like, nature of wanting to get back into it. But, like, from your perspective, like, do you have any theories of, like, why that exists in the industry?
- [03:14]
C
I kind of seen it as, like, we're all in this together kind of thing. Like, even if you're a complete competitor with someone that you meet at an event or a community meetup, for example, you've still got some, like, shared interests and shared problems and certain, you know, concerns and, like, things you want to have a good moan about. And, like, that's a really nice, unique thing that we can keep bringing to communities and events. And I think that that will happen no matter how AI progresses, no matter what we have, we will always have that kind of, we're all in this together. All the changes, they're happening to everyone. It's not a unique problem to you or I. It's that kind of, like, cheesy it sounds. It's that community feeling of, you know, we've all got each other's back and we can all help each other to get through it because we're all in this together. High School Musical style.
- [04:02]
B
Well, I mean, it's a good call to, like, the competition, because that's one thing that I've seen, you know, that's different is like, you could have direct competitors, like an SEO at two different Fortune 500e comm sites that are, like, openly sharing what they're doing and, like, things. It is. So it's like, to me, it's like that's. That's very different. It's like you don't go into other industries and see, like, direct competitors actually having dialogues and relationships with each other. But also it feels like it's such a. A small world or community where it's like you cross paths with people again and again and again. But it's like, there's not. Yeah, that, like, cutthroat mentality that you see sometimes in other practices.
- [04:47]
C
I mean, there's enough work for everybody, isn't There, I think that is it sometimes as well. Even like Agency v Agency sometimes it's kind of like, come on guys, there's enough work out there, there's enough websites that need work, enough clients and businesses and in house jobs. But yeah, you're right, you don't see like lawyers, you know, sharing a pint and discussing their strategy with each other, do you? Because it's competition. But again, it's really unique. And sometimes when I speak to my friends in other industries, that's when I kind of realize because to me this is just normal. This is, you know, how work is and actually it's not the way the rest of the world works now, like
- [05:22]
B
right now in the industry too, there's like so much like resurgence, I think of energy, especially in the like community and like live events where maybe some of that was like coming out of like the pandemic where everyone was just like held back a little bit. But also I feel like some of it is just the state of the industry right now. So working, you know, direct within Bryton SEO, like what are you feeling as far as like the shifts, as far as like the environment in those live events?
- [05:55]
C
I think, I mean I'm based in the uk, you may be able to tell by my accent. A big thing over here is that like a lot of us work from home now. So, you know, back in the day when I started my job, we'd all have lunch together and we chat about things and learn from each other or literally look over the desk and help each other. I think as people remotely across the world, I mean even teams across the world work together, I think they have, they need that kind of peace. People in person feeling that conversations they're showing each other, oh, look what I've done. Grabbing the laptop. So looking at a screen, like AI, the Internet, everything is great, but we still need that human connection when it comes to work. And I think after the pandemic and people working from home, you know, I have many friends who work from lovely beaches abroad and stuff like that, which is lovely, but they still need that people side. They still need to sit with people that like I said earlier, just, just get, get them and understand what they're talking about. I think events do that really well and you can do it in a bit more of a sociable way as well.
- [06:56]
B
Well, and maybe like let's, let's dive into Brighton a little bit more because I feel like when Brighton came onto the scene it, it felt like some of the events had gotten a bit Stagnant, where it was like there were still good attendance, but it felt just more of kind of repetitions. And I think it was feeling, at least to me, like, that you'd go to an event, you felt like you'd been to it already. And when Brighton came on the scene, I feel like a new energy was created around it. And even when you go to, like, the Brighton events, it's become this flagship event in the industry. So it's like, I'd love to hear you kind of describe, like, what is special about Brighton, like, how do you create that energy and that excitement that's been following it for so many years now.
- [07:48]
C
Yeah, I mean, I agree, obviously I work for them now, so I'm a little bit biased, but I spoke at Brighton SEO in the UK five times before I started this job. And, like, going to Brighton was kind of like a big trip every year. It was kind of like a holiday for me. It was like going to somewhere beautiful because we always choose beautiful venues, which does help, but it's just knowing that everybody's going to be there. Everybody in the industry is there. But then facilitation, lots of things that you can do. Like, of course, we have talks, we have panels, we have roundtables, we have all the learnings that everybody could want. But we also know that people want to enjoy themselves. They want to do social things, they want to do paddle, they want to do yoga, they want to do a 5K. We try and embrace that and kind of make it not just a learning experience, but a social side, a network inside, and just allow people to have a little bit of a break from normality and sitting in a room or in an office and have a little bit of fun. So it's really great to hear that you feel that way in terms of vibe that we're trying to bring. But just as, just as a side note, when we came over to the us, Kelvin wasn't sure if our kind of British style of events and some of the quirkiness that we would have would reflect well over in the us. So I think he's really proud of, you know, really happy that moving to the US and bringing Brighton SEO over has been a success and people are enjoying it.
- [09:11]
B
Well, I feel like that that character fits really well with the industry. And to me, it's like we all fell into SEO. So it is, like, also, by nature, kind of quirky and weird, and it's like, in some ways, it's like a very, like, nerdy discipline, but at the same time, like, you know, it's not that traditional like engineering style. Like there's a little more, I think, I mean, I hate to say this for the engineers listening, but a little more personality to it. So you have this like almost like conflict of being like really analytical and kind of like introvert, but then also like a little quirky, a little weird, a little unconventional. So to me, like that, that nature and that character actually just resonates with SEO across, you know, the US and EU apac, like all the way around. Because it feels like there is a unique mix of this like introvert, extrovert in the industry.
- [10:09]
C
I mean, I'm gonna, I'm biased. I think anybody that works in the search industry is just kind of like a little bit more fun and quirky. Like you said, there's like a real uniqueness to the community which I think we try and make sure that we cater to at the event and the history of the event. Like it started back in a pub in a room above in a pub that Kelvin started many years ago. That kind of personality has kind of stuck. So. So we are very proud of not becoming something too different and kind of keeping that heart and just keep building size wise. But we're still that kind of fun and quirky team from the uk
- [10:46]
B
and so, I mean, if I'm sure people are familiar with it, but so you have one event in the US in San Diego coming up in September and then you have two events in the uk. Do you, like, when you're going into these different events, like do you have specific goals that you're looking to, like, hey, this one, we want to focus on this aspect or like, are you thinking about differentiating between the two? Like how do you approach the different events and how you make that experience?
- [11:18]
C
So UK and US are slightly different because we do have two here in the uk. So in our spring edition in the UK we have Brighton SEO, so SEO and PR and we also have heraconf at the same time. So the PPC side. So that's our spring, whereas in October we have SEO and Measure Fest. So that's more of the analytical side of it. However, when we're in the U.S. we're trying to get all of those three kind of areas together. So it's kind of like all in one. And mainly the what we're trying to do with the content and kind of what we bring to the table is just what is topical that year. I mean, if you look back at some of our agendas from like two, three years Ago, half the content would be completely irrelevant now because it's changed, it's so different. It's not what people want here anymore. So that's a key focus is what's going on right now and also what are people wanting to see. We do a lot of polls and discussions and surveys that go out to try and, you know, what do you guys want to hear a talk about? Is it on AI? Are you absolutely sick of AI? Don't want to hear about it. You want to hear something completely different, like career progression or, you know, even something really unique or really, really narrow. We want to cater to that for the audience. So every year is different and it's just what's going on in the world and what the audience are looking to see.
- [12:39]
B
Well, and I guess like the nature of the industry plays well in that sense because it is so fast paced and it's like if you're going one year to the next, you're not going to see the same discussions and topics like you might be in the same like categories, but it's like there's going to be something unique to it.
- [12:57]
C
Yeah.
- [12:58]
B
So I think that that probably makes it a little bit easier to not make any event feel like a repeat of the previous.
- [13:04]
C
Yeah.
- [13:06]
B
From like how those topics and things are constructed. Like, I've talked to a lot of SEOs out there and I think, you know, a lot of times, because people are, this is how they're learning or like one of the ways in which they're learning. But I think a lot of times like up and coming SEOs are looking at these events like, oh, like that's the pinnacle or like that's how I measure if I kind of like made it in the industry. Do you have any recommendations for the listeners of like, if they want to be a speaker, if they want to submit an application for it. Like, how should someone approach if they want to. Yeah, get that crack on stage.
- [13:47]
C
My advice is always, and I say this for any event, is to try and go to the event first. You know, if it's, you know, even you have to wait till next year to apply. Try and go for the first if you've not been before for the first time. So you can see what types of talks they are, see what kind of level they're at, kind of gauge like what your audience would be looking for so that when you pitch you can make sure it's at the right level. It also generally helps as well if you can try and introduce yourself to the organizers or the team. You Know, try and like, you know, have a presence with them. Because I think sometimes people apply for an event without having gone or know anything about it. And rather than given a pitch which is specific for that tour, for that event or that track, they're kind of just sending anything and hoping that it works. I know that we spend a lot of time looking at pictures to make sure that it, you know, fits with our audience, fits with our messaging, fits with, you know, our code of conduct, for example. So I think the best advice I can say to like, new first time speakers is try and go to the event first. Kind of get a really good idea of the levels, the talks, how they're styled, how they're put across. And when you go to pitch, keep that in mind. It's kind of like applying for a job. Make sure you apply for the job, not just for any job.
- [15:01]
B
Right. It's like being specific to that event and not repurposing the same application for every single event that's going on that year.
- [15:11]
C
Like, some events are very, some, like we said, ours are a little bit quirky and a little bit more casual at times, but some events are very, very rigid, have very set rules, they are very formal. And if you want to apply for an event like that, you need to make sure that your pitch and your bio and everything that you're putting across kind of matches that as well. So it's kind of like making, like I said, with like a job application, making sure it matches the needs and what they're looking for.
- [15:37]
B
And I think too, it's like, it's fair that it's like, yeah, everyone may not have that ambition or that interest to be the one on stage. And I think one thing I've, you know, notice about the industry is we have a lot of introverts. You know, it's like there's a lot of people that it's like getting in front and I mean, even myself, it's like I'm an introvert at heart. I just like can play the extrovert when I kind of need to. And it's like I recognize that that's a component and it's like something that you can practice. But like, for someone that's maybe more on that introvert side, they don't have ambition on getting on stage, but they're still like, I want to go to these events. I'm a little nervous because I'm always kind of, you know, off to the side or it's like they have trouble making that first kind of step in connecting like, do you have any recommendations for those individuals? Like how, how can they get the most out of these events? How can they be a part of the community more?
- [16:36]
C
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I used to speak at a lot of events and I've started to slow them down now because my social battery isn't as, as big as it used to be. So, you know, you can still be involved in. You don't have to be a speaker. You will probably enjoy it more if you're not a speaker because you've got more time to enjoy. I think the best thing that somebody could do in those situations is to try and join something like a round table, for example, which are usually like smaller in size. You know, for example, 10, 15 people, which is kind of like you can still practice your public speaking because you're in a team, but you might find someone there that you can kind of buddy along with for another session or oh, you know, such and such is talk on. Do you want to go and see that? It's a nice way to be able to reach people and just kind of have somebody to stay with, but also just making sure if you want to. And it's. I always say if, because there's, there's people that don't want to do these types of things and that's fine, is to try and do some of the more casual social activities again, be it paddle or you know, the first time, first time talk, for example, that we do, we have meeting for first timers. Just try and do one thing and see if you enjoy it and if you don't. This shouldn't be a pressure to go speak, speak to people, watch every talk, go to every social event, go to every party, take from it what you need and give your space yourself, that time and the space, if that's what you need. I mean, I come home after every event that I go to and I just shut the curtains and I need just time for myself. And I'm a very extroverted person. So I think it's taking that pressure off yourself. Take what you need from it and don't feel the pressure to do absolutely everything because you will exhaust yourself and you won't enjoy it.
- [18:18]
B
It's like, it reminds me of almost like how I give recommendations for people like traveling. They're going on like a big trip for the first time or it's like, yeah, first time you visit a new country or a new city, then you're not going to see the entire place. So it's like, don't Try to kill yourself or stress yourself on hitting every single site and activity and things. But I think that advice of just like giving it a try, make your selection, but then also be honest with yourself of like, yeah, it's also okay. Like, you're not. There's no way you guys have so much going on these events. There's no way you're going to participate or be a part of all of it. So might as well just make the most of the things that you feel that you can kind of connect with.
- [19:05]
C
Absolutely. Like after our UK event in, in April, I came home and I was like, there was so much stuff I didn't get to do. I was, was a craft table and there was a sponsors, you know, game that I didn't get to do. Like, I missed out on so much stuff. But again, it's just kind of. You can't do everything. You have to be selective and just, you know, listen to your body and listen to your mind. If you've had enough, then, you know you've had enough. So just come away, you know, go back to your hotel, have a nap, you know, have a little cheeky nap or, you know, miss a few talks and go for a walk and get some fresh air. It's, yes, they are very sociable events if you want them to be, but also if you want to keep yourself to yourselves, and that's absolutely fine. I do that sometimes at events. I just stay at the back and just avoid people.
- [19:49]
B
Well, also like the location, so great for both of them where it's like, I mean, a few times, like, I mean both in the UK event as well as San Diego and sometimes just grab people that I was like, meaning to catch up with me, like, hey, let's, let's go on a walk and just leave the venue. You have the ocean or the bay on the other side of the event. So it's like, like beautiful setting to just get out, get a little fresh air. You can still have that networking opportunity and then you can come back and then have that, like, I don't know, more energy for the rest of the day.
- [20:24]
C
Yeah, I think you just, I mean, like you said, it's like in life you just need to pace yourself and just, you know, again, take from it what you need. If there's a, you know, a whole track of talks and you're kind of like, well, there's not really I want anything I want to see at 11 o', clock, for example, then don't feel the pressure that you have to sit there and Listen to a talk that you have no interest in, like, take yourself away, go get a nice lunch, have a longer lunch, grab a cup of tea from the UK and just kind of give yourself that time. Something I'm trying to do events as well so that you can really enjoy it rather than just feeling like you're trying to shove everything in one day.
- [20:58]
B
Excellent advice. Now let's bring this back to like the community aspect, because I do feel like Brighton SEO plays a significant role in the overall SEO community, but we both have this shared appreciation of the uniqueness. What would you say, or I guess like, if you were to advocate for others of like, how do we protect or how do we foster and how do we keep fueling this community? What recommendations do you have for either the veterans out there or the new up and comers that are coming into the industry? Like, how do we keep that unique nature that we have?
- [21:42]
C
I think that what the. Well, it's kind of the same with a lot of things in terms of like speakers as well. It's kind of like bringing in, I say younger people, bringing in, you know, people that are new to the industry, people that are just starting off. I think some communities can. Sometimes we kind of like we're already all together. Like I said, we're all in this together. And sometimes we forget about the fact that one day many years ago we were on the outskirts, we weren't quite yet in a community, we quite quite that didn't have our crowd. I think the really thing that we can keep doing to keep building communities and keep being what we are and growing is to make sure that, you know, we're working with uni, for example, or colleges or schools, and trying to foster that kind of like new generation of us that are going to come in because that's what people did for us years ago and brought us in. And I think it's making sure that we're doing that for others. Otherwise it will just be as our little team forever and ever. And eventually when we retire or get taken over by ii, it's the younger people that will be there doing the work.
- [22:45]
B
And I do think that is probably more important now than it's ever been. Just because I feel like with the shifts in the landscape, it feels like SEO is broadening, whether it's from the tactics that we're putting in play, it's bridging more and more into like PPR and other different types of like marketing aspects. I feel like as the industry grows and kind of expands out more and more has to be put on an emphasis to preserve and kind of keep that intact. But despite how it has still grown, it is such a small, like small knit community. It is such a small world where it's like you see people, one job and then another company and it's. Yeah, it's just like you're, you're constantly seeing the same faces, the same names, the same people. But I think there is that need to, you know, contribute back to it and you know, participate in events, do things and sharing knowledge and information. But it has been something that I've been kind of like, think on is like, how can you know whether it's Pre Visible Voice of Search, myself individually, like, how can we contribute back to help preserving this?
- [24:02]
C
Yeah, I feel like, you know, I say it all the time. Like I wouldn't have literally this job had I not, you know, all the support and the love and you know, everything that I've had from the communities over the years, that's what's got me in this role. So I think, you know, it's kind of like, what can you do and give back? You know, is it, you know, like I said, attend an event. It could even just be something as small as commenting on someone's LinkedIn post about a blog that they've, you've done. You know, it's just supporting other people doesn't have to be a huge gesture. It can be something small. And I think if more of us kind of make sure that we're doing that type of thing, our communities will grow, but they'll just be stronger and we'll be closer. So yeah, it doesn't have to be going to an event or doing something huge or setting up your own podcast. It could be something small. Even at the end of someone's talk, you know, go up to them and be like, I loved your talk. You know, I'd love to connect with you. I'd love to ask you another question. Like from that, you could build a friend for life, a business future, business partner. You really don't know. So yeah, I think those little steps that people do can really keep us going and keep us being the amazing community that we are.
- [25:09]
A
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- [26:37]
B
And I think it is. It's something that I found really like firsthand in the sense of when I first got into SEO, I was at a company that no one else was doing SEO. So I was completely isolated. I didn't have any other friends in the industry. And I remember like the first conference that I went to and then seeing some of those speakers that I was able to like introduce to. Then later, fast forward several years where then I'm meeting them being like, oh yeah, I saw whatever conversation and like being able then to like reconnect on a different level. So I think it's like it's both in the moment, but then sometimes too it's like it's the callback and it's the afterwards and it does take a lot of time and effort to put on, you know, prepare for these presentations and be ready for it. So like you said, just coming out and being like, hey, I really appreciate it, that was great. It's like as a speaker I would, I love that, like it's, it makes you feel like, cool, it was worth it. Like so I think like I would be very surprised if anyone reacted poorly to someone coming up and just giving a compliment in that sense, like it's a very low barrier.
- [27:50]
C
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, whenever I've spoken and you know, someone's connected with me a few days after and they've asked for my deck, for example, like, oh, I loved your talk. I'd love to like watch it again. Like the ego. I'm just like, oh my gosh like, it does, it just pops. Fills you with pride because it does take so much time and effort and to, like, build a presentation and practice it and then, you know, present it. Just kind of giving that speaker a little high five at the end is, you know, it does really mean a lot to them. And it can be the difference between them realizing that it went well and, you know, she did a really good job or kind of like doubting themselves. So, yeah, I'd love more people to do that after events, like I said, even if it's just following someone on LinkedIn or dropping them a message a few days later, it makes such a matter, massive difference. And again, you could have a connection and a friend for life just from something like that.
- [28:42]
B
Absolutely. And it's, again, this is encouraging yourself to put yourself out there, whether you're an introvert, an extrovert, push yourself a little bit because the reward is so much greater.
- [28:53]
C
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, sometimes I've spoken to people after their talks and they've been like, oh, I can share more on my strategy with you. And I'm like, oh, okay. Like, great. I loved your talk. It was a great. What you covered. And then you're going to give me even more information and help me even more. Like, you know, a lot of speakers are very willing to kind of continue those conversations on if you've got a question, you know, like, oh, you did speak about this, but can you explain a little bit more? So many speakers are willing to do that. You know, forget the community side alone. You could actually really help yourself by, you know, building those relationships and having more information and conversations with them.
- [29:31]
B
Well, and I think so. Something I'd like to get into too, is like, we've given the kudos and the flowers to, like, the things that we like about the industry. What gives you the most concern right now at the state of the industry or the state of the community right now? Like, what areas give you caution? Or you're like, that's something that we're gonna have to overcome as a collective.
- [29:55]
C
I am noticing a lot of people like myself, for example, I got into search marketing 12 years ago, is the realization is that the job we signed up for doesn't exist anymore. I feel like for a lot of people, that's quite hard to deal with. That's kind of hard to kind of, you know, not move on from, but kind of work out where to go next. I feel like a lot of people in the community are kind of having those questions of like, gosh, this is not what I signed up for. You know, all this AI and automation and it didn't exist like 10, 12 years ago in the way that it does. So I think that's something that as a community we need to be careful of. You know, if people want to move on into different careers, that's absolutely amazing. But just make sure that we're kind of supporting those people who are a little bit like feeling a little bit lost and a little bit, you know, unsure on what they want to do and how they want to progress. Because, yeah, the job I signed up for, you know, 12 years ago doesn't exist. What I studied at uni or the uni books that I've got, you know, it's all out of date now. None of it, you know, even exists. So I've noticed that a lot. And for our events, we are, we are seeing that more people want to hear career progression talks, for example, personal branding talks. So kind of like, what else can people do to keep enjoying their career? And I think that's really important for our industry because the changes are here, the changes are happening. Like, what do we want to do in the next 10, 15 years?
- [31:21]
B
I love that you hit on kind of the career progression aspect. Like, personally, that's been an area that I've been really interested in, both in like wanting to contribute, but also it's like everyone does have such a unique path into the industry that it's like you don't have. And there's a ton of information, especially on like the SEO one, on one like tactical level. But like, no one's really giving that guidance or that same level of support into like, how do you continue to progress? Like, how do you, when you get to a level that you're building an SEO team, how do you go through budget approvals? How do you go through kind of like team composition? And so there are so many additional layers that I think, you know, we can break into. And again, like no one's, there's no like playbook that you're given of like, hey, this is how you build and run an enterprise SEO team. Especially if someone's coming from like a mid market or like a single SEO to an SEO on a team of 10 or something like at the enterprise level. So I've really seen like that variation quite a bit.
- [32:32]
C
Yeah, also just kind of like in house versus agency side for that as well. I think, you know, I've worked in both. I think if your agency side, the career progression, I wouldn't say it's clear. I Don't think any career progression is clear. But you know, you're an exec, you're in this and you're this and then you become head of, and you become director. I think in house. You know, a lot of the times, unless someone leaves, you're not going to ever have a job opportunity. But you still want to improve your, your skills and you know, your salary, for example. Like, what can you do to get that without, you know, your manager, you know, moving jobs? It's kind of that kind of understanding. And as you say, we're not taught it. I definitely wasn't taught that at university either. Like career progression, it was like, do marketing. There's no career progression discussions. So I think that's something. As a community, we can all support each other. There's always going to be someone in the network who's been through it and can give you that advice as well. So, yeah, it's not always easy to have those conversations with your manager or your team. Sometimes you do need to go externally to try and get an unbiased kind of opinion of it.
- [33:33]
B
Well, and it is interesting too. Like we did the SEO job study and we're looking at all the different SEO jobs, or not even like SEO and title, but like job descriptions that were mainly focused on SEO. And I think there's, there's a lot of, I think, misconceptions of it where it's like a lot of people's like, oh, there's less jobs, the jobs are shrinking. It's like not necessarily like, you know, we found that it's actually broadening from it, but you are seeing like increases and decreases within that overall. So it's like, yeah, the net summary is relatively stable. But then if you look into like the content segment, we've seen a decline in jobs there. If you look at the like enterprise and there's been an increase in those like director and above type roles. So it's like, it's much more complex than. It's just, it's shrinking, it's growing. But I think it is something that I feel like is on a lot of people's mind because there's so much discussion around like AI displacement of workforce. Clearly we're in an industry in the practice that is on the forefront that. But it's like at the same time, yeah, like there is a lot of concern when I talk to individuals of like, what is the future career opportunities for me, like, is this going to be a viable path or should I look elsewhere, like from your side personally, like Given that question of like, should someone get into SEO today, like what's your preference or what's your stance on it?
- [35:08]
C
I mean I'm of course gonna say yes. I think with all, you know, with any career, especially in search marketing, it was if you've been around long enough, our jobs have always gonna be on the line. Like, you know, PPC won't exist in five years. Blah blah, blah that we've, we've heard it all before. Voice search is going to take over. No one's going to type anything. Remember that. Like look at us now, we're fine. I think nowadays it is more of that kind of like building on your strategic side. You know, because we've got so much automation going on. It's less of that manual nitty gritty stuff and a bit more of the strategic side. Stakeholder management. Oh that could be a full time job. Trying to keep your stakeholders happy. Right. Your report and your attribution, you know, the things that actually do need human intervention either in terms of work or just communication, those jobs will always exist. So I think, you know, someone getting into those roles now, it's thinking about those types of things and not necessarily just what you're doing in the accounts or whether tools are in the platforms. It's everything that goes alongside of it. Even just a bit of business knowledge is always useful to have as well. You know, understanding what you know the CEO is talking about when he's talking about these KPIs and goals and stuff like that. I think that's the type of things that people need to keep future proof in their roles.
- [36:22]
B
100 and I think I just, I've said this several times too where it's like I've seen like some absolutely like brilliant SEOs being able to put out like really fascinating and like really high quality work. But then bridging that gap from SEO tactics to the more broader business strategy and being able to speak the same language as the executives and translate something that's very in the weeds and tactical. It's like that feels like it's been like a glass ceiling for a lot of individuals and industry of just being able to bridge the tactical practice into the broader business strategy and kind of positioning in the company.
- [37:08]
C
Yeah, and that's it. Right? Like, you know, you can do amazing work and you can have amazing results but if you can't communicate what you've done and how the chain, you know, how you've owned it. Unfortunately a lot of stakeholders, they're just looking at the numbers they're not, you know, is that number gone up? And you're like, no. And they're like, I don't even care. Why is it is being able to communicate to them and explain, well, you know, the whole world's changed, for example, and this is why. And I think a lot of people's problems is not necessarily being able to do that. And then unfortunately, their work's not valued as much. And we all know that, you know, people putting, you know, so much time and love into their work, but sometimes speaking to the higher ups, as you say, they're not necessarily understanding SEO for, you know, they absolutely don't really understand. So it's kind of make sure that you can communicate that and get that across and prove your worth.
- [37:55]
B
Yeah. And, and really, like, one of the potentially easier ones I like to really push on people is like, speak their language.
- [38:04]
C
Yeah.
- [38:04]
B
Like, don't, like, we speak so much in like, industry jargon that makes it less approachable from someone from the outside. Like, make it easy for them use language that they're familiar with. Like, if you know that they've been hearing about. And like too. I always tell like, SEOs, like, look at how other like, counterparts are speaking and reporting on their stuff and draft off similar language.
- [38:31]
C
Yeah.
- [38:32]
B
Like, we don't have to always introduce something new. And yes, we are different, we are special. But it's like, that's not going to win you any points on getting other people on your side. So it's like, you do have to make, like, make it very approachable from someone to the outside and don't make it overly difficult. Like, it's. I get why it happens, but I think it's something that kind of does almost like a disservice because then you create these artificial barriers to then be on the same page with so many others.
- [39:02]
C
Yeah. If someone tries to explain, like football rules to me, like, I'm not interested. Like, my brain just, it just goes straight over my head. Where if someone tried to explain it to me in very simple, simple language or language that I use, then it will, it will click and I will get it. Sometimes, you know, I, I ask people, like, you know, how do you want the information that I've got? You know, how would you like to be reported to again? Because some people love a spreadsheet. I love a spreadsheet. Give me a spreadsheet. I'm fine. Some people might like a visual graphic or someone might just want like a loom video for five minutes of you speaking, you know, no jargon. You know, nothing fancy, just exactly explaining it to them. I think that's really useful for anything or anybody. It's just trying to. How do you like to be communicated with? Do you want the cold hard facts, do you want all these acronyms or do you just want it like straight numbers?
- [39:54]
B
Great advice. And two, it's like I would say like, keep it simple, keep it simple. It does not. You don't have to try to cover everything. Like hit the most important stuff and not the little things, you know, it's just let them fall off. But hit your big targets and then like forget the rest essentially.
- [40:14]
C
Yeah. Don't make more work for yourself. Where I think we're really bad at that is trying to over explain things, give loads of information, give loads of stuff and a lot of stakeholders will just kind of look at the numbers go down. That'll do. And they're not reading the report that you spent five hours every month doing. So. Yeah. Stop to making it harder for ourselves and keeping it simple.
- [40:36]
B
Well, kind of to wrap things up a little bit. Like what gives you. What are you excited about most in the industry today? And it can be both things that's going on with Bryton, SEO or general, just kind of like state of the industry. But like what are you excited about right now? What gives you hope or optimism for the continuation of our community? Where do you stand?
- [41:01]
C
I think it's going back to what we said earlier, just about how unique our industry is in the fact that we do have communities. Like again, some of my best friends are people that I've met at work or at events and you know, at this job buying. I've only got that because I've been so involved in communities. That is the real value that I see like going forward and that makes me excited because, you know, communities and it's limitless. Right. There's no, there's no end to it now. I'm hearing of people that have made business partners by going to events or like networking or people who have made friends. Like I have and I've even heard of people starting relationships after meeting in communities. So it's kind of like that to come from work is an incredible thing and that like will keep me excited regardless of what's going on in the world. What's going on with AI is it's the people side of it and people never cease to amaze me and impress me. So, you know, community is always going to be king.
- [41:57]
B
Absolutely. And maybe like an anecdote and actually so I've Been to the Bryton SEO in the UK one time and we actually, our last hire at Pre Visible is someone that I met at the event like a year ago. Didn't have something at the time that was a good fit. We connected well, had a good feeling or a good kind of connection with the individual and fast forward 12 months later now just joined our team. And so that was something that just came from randomly meeting at the kind of after hours after the conference was over.
- [42:36]
C
After hours you were out late and then.
- [42:39]
B
And yeah, first night a bunch of different acquaintances. Next night ended up linking up again and going out and it's like. And then that led to, you know, something else from a career progression. Yeah, very, very far later from it.
- [42:55]
C
Yeah, I think it's, I know it's like cheesy to say it's not what you know, it's who you know. And it doesn't necessarily mean like, you know, that you're guaranteed a job, although it worked out in that case. But you know, you can really gain a lot from it, either personally, professionally, you know, strategically, or just having a really good time. Because I think we all need to start having a little bit more fun. So whatever you take away from it, it could be short term, but more than likely it'll be that long term benefit that we all kind of need.
- [43:24]
B
Absolutely. Now I want to kind of close things out with our more kind of like lightning round shorter form questions. And so I'm going to throw five different questions at you and the first one is going to be why is community so important to the SEO industry?
- [43:43]
C
Because our work would be boring without it. Right. Like I wouldn't say necessarily that we've, you know, we're all in it just for the work or the pay. It's that community side that's the fun side. It's the people side as well.
- [43:54]
B
Yeah. And I think for me it's like I would say one, you have to rely on others at the pace of the industry as well as like how you get into it. But it's also, it's something that makes it, and I think kind of you're saying is it makes it more enjoyable, it makes it more human, it makes it more approachable. But I think it's something that both sets the industry apart, but also something that like we should all feel like the ownership to carry on.
- [44:23]
C
Yeah, I kick myself for not getting into community earlier. I spent too many years on my own.
- [44:29]
B
Next one. What's one thing conference attendees want less of in 2026?
- [44:37]
C
Talks which are just about AI. As in like the topic is only AI. AI is everywhere. Just include it in your discussion. You don't need to have just a talk or just about AI. Just make it, just put it into the rest of the deck. It doesn't need to just be focused on AI.
- [44:55]
B
I love hearing that too, because it has just so much of the headline. It's like, yeah, at this point that's table stakes.
- [45:02]
C
Yes.
- [45:02]
B
It doesn't matter what you're talking about. It's going to come in there some form another. So it's like focus on then the other matter that then AI is a companion to not just the only topic.
- [45:13]
C
Yes. So please, less. Less AI. Just put it into everyone else.
- [45:19]
B
Next one. How can someone get the most out of attending an SEO conference if they're going for their first time?
- [45:26]
C
Setting a plan for the day, reviewing the agenda so they can highlight talks that they want to. To go to. You know, just panel discussions, topics that they want to see, and also schedule in breaks for themselves to either check their emails, freshen up at the hotel, or just have a nice walk and fresh air.
- [45:42]
B
Love the advice on it. I. I think for me, the piece that I would add on too is like, do the after, like the extracurricular activities or the after parties. Like do the social things that are going to set you up for building that network. Because to me it's like there's so much value in just like those settings in that environment that it's. Yes, you're going to learn from the speakers on the stage, but almost sometimes it's like the value you get from just connecting with others in the industry can be so much more rewarding.
- [46:17]
C
Perfect time to try something different. Paddle, for example.
- [46:21]
B
No. Okay, so from this we're talking paddle tennis, right? Because I was thinking originally I was like paddle board paddle tennis.
- [46:28]
C
Yeah. Here in the UK we're calling it paddle. I don't know like what everyone else is calling it, but yes, like it's like tennis. But if you've never done it before, for example, we have it in San Diego. You can try something new while you're in San Diego. You may love it and become a paddle Pro.
- [46:46]
B
Absolutely. Next one. How can SEOs get more involved in the SEO community?
- [46:54]
C
My advice is not to try and be in every community. I feel like people feel like they need to be everywhere. Try and find a community which works best for you, you know, for example, you're an E comm specialist, for example. Try and find a community where you can really resonate and provide value and understand what people are going on, but try and find one which works for what you're working on and try and get local as well. I love a local community. It doesn't be have to to be an international one.
- [47:20]
B
I, we were chatting about that, I think in our last conversation too. And it's like there are the big flagship, you know, events and Brighton SEO being the primary one, but it's like there are a lot of really strong local communities and that's something that I've been really energized from because it's not one's better than the other. You get a different experience. Yeah, like if you're going to an event with 20 people that by nature is going to have a way different interaction and experience than what you'd get from going to these big, like big stage events. And so it's like there are so many different flavors. It's not one versus another, it's more of like offering a different experience.
- [48:06]
C
Yeah, have a mix.
- [48:09]
B
Final question I have. What's one thing the search industry needs more of right now?
- [48:15]
C
Oh, definitely more female and non binary speakers. I work on the agendas for our events and I know there are so many amazing people out there with great insights to share, but they're not necessarily pitching to speak at events, which means then we can't ask them to speak at our event. You know, if the supply isn't there, then we can't have it. So I, you know, I think we really need to better demonstrate what our industry is and the diversity that we have and we need to see that on the stage, we need to see it on LinkedIn, we need to see it in blog. So, yeah, just kind of expanding. That would be amazing in 20, 26 and beyond.
- [48:52]
B
That's a great call out and I think, I guess something to add like optimism towards that. I feel like women in tech SEO has been such a good example of like a community group. Like it has been super impressive to see how that has grown and like just also the genuine excitement around it. Like you see it on LinkedIn, you hear it when you talk to people about it. But I think like that type really, you know, hopefully is giving a push to those other groups in the space which do have a tendency of being pretty homogenous. So I think that's a great call out.
- [49:32]
C
Yeah, new speakers, everybody just want to hear more voices, different people's perspectives be challenged. We, you know, we need, we need to reflect our industry.
- [49:43]
B
And one thing I do appreciate too is like I feel like there is a good mix of speakers at Brighton that are not just the same kind of, you know, people that are on the speaker circuit. But I feel like you do get some of those kind of like first chance. Never spoken an event before. So that has been cool to see too of a mix of both like the big name speakers but also kind of like, like the up and coming and people that are getting on stage for the first time.
- [50:13]
C
Everybody needs their first break, right?
- [50:16]
B
Absolutely. Well, that's going to wrap up this episode of the Voice of Search podcast. Thanks again to Sophie Logan, Community and Editorial Manager at SEO Brighton and Hero Conference for joining us. If you'd like to contact Sophie, you can find a link to her LinkedIn profile in the show notes or you can check out our company's website@brighton SEO.com and also I want to mention that we have a special discount offer for the listeners that are attending or thinking about going to Brighton SEO Conference in September. Our listeners can get 20% off their tickets using the code VOICE20 and then check out the link in the show notes which will take you right over to the Brighton page to get your tickets and we hope to see you at the event in September. That's all for today. Thanks for stopping by Voice of Search podcast and we'll see you in the next next episode.