You're Using Tabs Wrong

Summary

Waveform: The MKBHD Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: “You’re Using Tabs Wrong”
Date: April 10, 2026
Hosts: Marques Brownlee (MKBHD), Andrew Liszewski, David Pierce, Adam Doud, Ellis Hamburger

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Episode Overview

In this insightful and lively episode, the Waveform crew explores topics ranging from the future of tab management in browsers, NASA’s latest Artemis mission and its photographic feats, changes in messaging apps, the impact of AI on operating system security, to the design of notification bells for bikes in the era of noise-cancelling headphones. The hosts debate user interface choices, delve into recent tech news, and share technical as well as cultural commentary.

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Key Topics & Discussions

1. Chrome Adds Vertical Tabs: The Great Tab Debate

• Segment Begins: 55:00
• David Pierce published a piece defending vertical browser tabs, as Chrome introduced the feature.
• Hosts’ Opinions:
  • Marques, David, and Ellis: Pro-vertical tabs. They argue widescreens make vertical tab bars efficient, reclaiming vertical space for content.
  • Andrew and Adam: Prefer horizontal tabs. Adam uses keyboard shortcuts (Command+1~9) and prefers Safari for battery life and security.
• Usability Considerations:
  • “Your monitor’s widescreen. You have more horizontal space than vertical—use tabs on the side, you’ll never run out of room.” — Marques (61:27)
  • If you use multiple browser windows side by side, vertical tabs can eat space.
  • Debate morphs into larger UX/habit chat, referencing ARC and Safari’s features, and extending to browser choice, RAM, and security anxieties.
• Memorable Moment:
  • “The real end to this whole debate is everyone has way too many tabs open and just do whatever you want.” — Andrew (72:22)

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2. NASA Artemis 2 Mission: Shooting the Moon (with Phones)

• Segment Begins: 09:53
• Mission Highlights:
  • Artemis 2 sent four astronauts in a week-long lunar flyby, swinging as close as 5,000 miles to the Moon, marking the farthest humans had been from Earth.
  • For the first time, astronauts brought personal devices (iPhones and Androids), capturing unique ‘shot on iPhone’ images.
  • “It’s just crazy to think that their camera roll...is a photo looking down on Earth from 250,000 miles away.” — Marques (13:25)
• Photography & Hardware Deep-Dive:
  • Cameras used: Nikon D5 (chosen for large pixel pitch), Nikon Z9, GoPro Hero 4 Black, Hasselblad
  • Discussion of why space missions use years-old hardware; reliability and compatibility trump latest specs.
  • “There’s no Best Buy in space.” — Andrew (17:14)
• Live Streaming:
  • The whole trip was livestreamed with a direct satellite relay to Earth.
  • “Crazy. They could live stream this whole thing. Yet Netflix constantly can’t get Love Is Blind reunion streamed properly on time.” — Andrew (21:34)
• Image Licensing:
  • No phone manufacturer paid to have devices included (“It’s wild to think...they probably have an iPhone.” — Andrew, 17:45)
  • GoPro missed a marketing moment, but NASA’s government status precludes such branding.

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3. UI/UX Pet Peeves in Mobile and OS Design

• Segment: 05:12–08:30
• Flashlight Quick Settings Rant: Andrew dislikes the design on Pixel, where the “big” tile brings up flashlight strength, while the “little button” toggles the flashlight — argues the main action should be immediate, with fine controls secondary.
  • “A bigger touch target should be the more common, the more general thing.” — David (06:22)
• Discussion extends to iPhone’s Dynamic Island tap/long-press behavior, notification access, and screen-time metrics.
  • “Your unlock number must be crazy high…” — Marques to David (08:11)
• Side rant: iOS and Android’s digital wellbeing/screen time is confusing if you own multiple devices.

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4. Messaging Shake-Ups: Samsung Drops Its Messages App

• Segment Begins: 46:19
• News: Samsung announces abrupt discontinuation of its Messages app, now pushing users to Google Messages.
  • Users given two months to switch; concern for less savvy users missing the switchover.
  • “Less choice sucks. We’re gonna leave a little pause here for all the people who are about to type: ‘Just use WhatsApp.’” — Andrew (50:46)
• Side tangent: Ellis rants about excessive white space in Google Messages on Samsung, and how “useless” branding real estate crowds out information.

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5. Tech News & Rumors: Folding Phones, Exclusive Colors, and AI on Phones

• iPhone Fold Rumors (29:07):
  • Conflicting reports (even on the same site!) about Apple’s timeline—might be 2026 or 2027; hosts place bets on when/if the folded iPhone will arrive.
  • “Is this what hedging your bet looks like in real time? This is crazy.” — Marques (29:23)
• Pixel 10a Japan-Exclusive Blue Rant (94:00):
  • Ellis laments limited-edition colorways only in certain markets, and the variable availability/features of Pixel devices around the world.
  • “Why do we get Wicked and Spongebob themes here in the States while Japan gets this?” — Ellis (95:49)
• LG’s Canceled Rollable Phone Teardown (25:50):
  • Discussion of hardware ambition, design quirks. “It’s the most careful I’ve ever seen Zack be.” – Andrew (28:15)

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6. Anthropic’s Project Glasswing & The Scary Power of AI in Security

• Segment Begins: 77:42
• Summary:
  • Anthropic’s “Project Glasswing” is an alliance, leveraging their new Mythos model, which excels at coding and discovering OS/app vulnerabilities.
  • The model autonomously found thousands of high-severity bugs, including kernel and browser exploits.
  • Companies are racing to patch software before such models—eventually available to adversaries—cause havoc.
  • Hosts are both impressed and skeptical: “As much as this seems legit and seems freaky deaky...they have a financial interest in lying, so maybe they’re lying, maybe they’re not.” — Adam (84:38)
• Memorable Example:
  • An unpatched bug in FFmpeg, present for decades, and a 27-year-old bug in OpenBSD, discovered by Mythos.
  • Discussion of the arms race in AI-driven cybersecurity, and doubt about vendor transparency.
• Notable Quote:
  • “If you make software and you say we’re not going to make this available to the public, it will eventually become available...because someone else hacks you or because OpenAI or Google eventually develops an agent that’s just as powerful.” — David (82:17)

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7. ANC-Defeating “Smart Bells” for Cyclists

• Segment Begins: 85:19
• Skoda, the automaker, developed a mechanical bicycle bell that produces tones designed to penetrate active noise-cancelling (ANC) headphones—citing increasing cyclist-pedestrian collisions in cities.
• Technical breakdown: Targeted tone at 750Hz pierces ANC; a secondary, higher-frequency tone (2,000+ Hz) ensures audibility for those without headphones.
• “I want the bell and I want to see what it sounds like.” — Andrew (93:26)
• Discussion on headphone tech, frequency response, and a mini-rant about “frequency response charts.”
  • “If anyone ever sends me a frequency response chart, block my number, bro.” — Adam (93:04)

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8. Trademark Insanity: Whoop vs. Bevel

• Segment Begins: 105:55
• Andrew revisits his gripes with Whoop after learning they're suing Bevel, a competitor, for using terms like “strain” and “recovery” and design elements allegedly too similar (e.g., dark mode, colored rings, moon icon).
  • “It really just feels a lot like the Fine Bros trying to trademark ‘React’…and we know how that ended.” — Andrew (113:17)
• Adam provides legal nuance about trademarks: specific to an industry/use, with bizarre examples like Taylor Swift’s 1989 and “this sick beat” trademarks.

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Memorable Quotes

• “[On Artemis photos:] It’s just perspective. It’s not even so much about the phone that’s taking it.... they open up [their camera roll] and it’s a shot of the moon, which is somehow right next to them.” — Marques (13:25)
• “There’s no Best Buy in space.” — Andrew (17:14)
• “If something takes up a huge portion of your screen, but it’s only taking up pixels you’re not going to use anyway, who cares?” — Marques (67:36)
• “If you announce something and then you wait too long, people stop caring.” — David (31:26)
• “Don’t engage [conspiracy/rage bait]. Just keep scrolling.” — Marques (22:46)
• “The real end to this whole debate is everyone has way too many tabs open and just do whatever you want.” — Andrew (72:22)
• “If anyone ever sends me a frequency response chart, block my number, bro.” — Adam (93:04)

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Notable Timestamps

• Browser Tab Debate: 55:00–73:45
• NASA Artemis Photo/Camera Segment: 09:53–24:45
• Samsung Messages Shut Down: 46:19–51:22
• Anthropic Project Glasswing: 77:42–85:18
• Skoda ANC Bike Bell: 85:19–93:45
• Whoop vs. Bevel Rant: 105:55–114:46
• Pixel 10a Color Rant & Google Japan: 94:10–97:59

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Closing Thoughts

This episode stands out for its wide-ranging yet tightly interlinked tech commentary, friendly (and sometimes heated!) debates over usage habits, and for tackling both the very small (button layouts, notification annoyances) and the cosmic (literally—Artemis moonshots). As always, Waveform mixes hard tech with wit and lived experience, shining especially when the hosts disagree or share pet peeves.

Listener Call to Action:
Listeners are invited to submit questions at waveformsurvey.com for a future bonus Q&A episode.

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For full context or nuance on any segment, refer to the provided timestamps. This summary excludes advertisements and intro/outro filler as requested.

Transcript

[Marques Brownlee]

Support for the show comes from Odoo Running a business takes everything you've got, and a lot of the tools out there that are supposed to make your life easier just aren't great at talking to each other. And that means you end up having to toggle between a dozen different apps and services just to keep the lights on. Enough of that. Now there's Odoo, the all in one fully integrated platform that might help you actually get it all done. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's o d o o.com. Support for the show comes from Retool. Too many companies run critical operations on duct taped spreadsheets, slack workflows, and whatever else they could cobble together, not because they want to, but because building internal tools means weeks of waiting on someone else's backlog. That's where Retool comes in. Build custom internal tools just by describing what you need. Prompt something like Build me a revenue dashboard for our salesforce data and Retool actually builds it on your company's data in your cloud, with enterprise security built in. Go to retool.com waveform we all need to retool how we build software. Support for the show comes from Framer, so the reason you create a website is so that your business can thrive. But some websites just don't look the part. Framer can help with that. Framer is the enterprise grade no code website builder used by teams at companies like Perplexity and Miro to move faster with real time collaboration and robust cms. With everything you need for great SEO, not to mention advanced analytics that include integrated A B testing, your designers and marketers are empowered to build and maximize your.com from day one. So whether you want to launch a new site or test a few landing pages or migrate your full.com, framer has programs for startups, scale ups and large enterprises to make going from idea to live site as easy and fast as possible. Learn how you can get more out of your.com from a framer specialist or get started building for free [e-mail] wave for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com wave for 30 30% off framer.com wave rules and restrictions may apply. Support for the show comes from Zapier. When it comes to bringing AI into your workflows, there's no shortage of hype. But turning that hype into something real and actionable starts with the right tools. Zapier is here to help. Zapier turns strategy into execution. So you're not just talking about AI, you're delivering on it. With its AI orchestration platform, you can bring AI into any workflow and focus more on what really matters to your company. You can Even connect top AI models, including ChatGPT and Claude, to whatever tools your team already uses. So you can incorporate AI exactly where you need it. That can be workflows, an autonomous agent, a customer chatbot, or whatever else. You can orchestrate it all with Zapier, letting you do more with your time. And it's designed for everyone, not just tech experts. According to data from Zapier, teams have already automated over 300 million AI tasks using the platform. So join the millions of businesses transforming how they work with Zapier and AI. Get started for free by visiting zapier.com/that's Z A P I E R.com/Wave. Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business takes everything you've got. And a lot of the tools out there that are supposed to make your life easier just aren't great at talking to each other. And that means you end up having to toggle between a dozen different apps and services just to keep the lights on. Enough of that. Now there's Odoo, the all in one fully integrated platform that might help you actually get it all done. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's o d o o dot com.

[David Pierce]

No more dock for me.

[Marques Brownlee]

Wow. It's committing to it.

[David Pierce]

I'm committing.

[Marques Brownlee]

I like that.

[David Pierce]

I don't click on those things. I just. I just do command space.

[Marques Brownlee]

I'm going to do that too. I'm going to hide my dock.

[David Pierce]

Is this something we can all agree on?

[Marques Brownlee]

Because I'm a Raycast.

[Adam Doud]

I was going to say, I can't.

[Andrew Liszewski]

The real end to this whole debate is everyone has way too many tabs open and just do whatever you want. Not man, I thought it was fun.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, that's the whole reason I liked ARC in the first place, because I have way too many tabs open and it closes them for me.

[Adam Doud]

You don't want arc. You want an AI browse owned by Atlassian.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yo, what is up, people of the Internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform podcast.

[Ellis Hamburger]

We're your hosts.

[Marques Brownlee]

I'm Marques.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I'm Andrew.

[David Pierce]

And I'm David.

[Marques Brownlee]

This week we've got NASA coming back from the moon Sick Chrome adding vertical tabs, which we can talk about if they're actually better or not. What Samsung messages shutting down anthropic project Glasswing. And how ANC to headphones is causing potential safety issues and how a car company is trying to fix that. And we'll end it all with Andrew's whoop rant part.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Dude, I also put and like four times in there, so it just sounded like you did a really run on sentence. That's my fault.

[Marques Brownlee]

Hey, it's the intro. It's got to be a run on. But first, did they even test this?

[Andrew Liszewski]

I have a really fast one. No one's on Pixel right now. Right. So none of you have experienced this?

[Ellis Hamburger]

The new flashlight onto greener pastures.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Nah, nah. Mine's greener. Mine's greener for sure. Yellower. The new flashlight quick setting is driving me insane. This only happens in Google quick settings and only if it is the two by one tile width. So pressing the button, if you press just the little tiny circle of the flashlight icon, it turns the flashlight on. But if you press the whole thing, the setting comes up, which is flashlight strength.

[David Pierce]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Which I think is a good setting.

[Marques Brownlee]

And it turned on.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It turns it on. But then you press. You can either press turn off or done and it stays on. I think the more specific adjustments should be the little button and the big button should just be on and off. This. Every time I turn this on, I get a menu setting and I hate it. And I think I see your. If you want to be specific, that should be the smaller touch. Real estate, 100%. Okay.

[Marques Brownlee]

Not. That reminds me.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Thank you. I wonder if anyone else is having.

[David Pierce]

No, that makes sense.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Everyone I've asked to test this presses the little button and I'm like, am I insane?

[David Pierce]

I mean, that's fair. But regardless, like, a bigger touch target should be the more common, the more general thing. Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

[Marques Brownlee]

That reminds me of.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Okay.

[Marques Brownlee]

When on the dynamic island on the iPhone. I think I said this in the review.

[David Pierce]

Are you back on the air?

[Marques Brownlee]

I'm on the air. I just. I'm using another camera phone with like an incredible camera. So let me try to use the air.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Okay, that was a fair question. You sounded a little offended by him asking.

[Marques Brownlee]

Oh, no, no.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah. I mean, I think that was a totally fair question.

[Marques Brownlee]

This is the first time I've stuck to the air for more than two days.

[David Pierce]

I want to try the air, but I don't want to spend $1,000 to try the air.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, it's the only black phone they sell.

[David Pierce]

Oh, fair.

[Marques Brownlee]

So the dynamic island, when you're playing media, you can either long press it which brings up the little pop up, or you can tap it which brings up the whole app. I think I felt since the beginning that that should be the other way around. I should tap it to show the controls or I should long press it to dive into the app.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah, that sounds exactly the same.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

The things that can happen accidentally should be the less annoying things that happen.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

So like tapping both of those should just be the really quick thing that happens where the more intentional version of it should be the more granular dive in.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, kind of related to that. You know how pulling down on the iPhone on the left brings up like one menu setting and bringing down the one on the right brings out the quick settings.

[Marques Brownlee]

On the left is notifications, on the right is quick settings. Yeah.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, that's annoying because to get to notifications is really hard, especially on the Macs. Like I can almost never do it and it makes sense to want to get to quick settings, like quicker, but I can almost never get to the.

[Andrew Liszewski]

What do you think you go into more settings or notifications.

[David Pierce]

Quick settings. Because if I want to do notifications, I just lock my phone and then swipe up.

[Marques Brownlee]

Oh, that is faster.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, that's actually my tick.

[Marques Brownlee]

Like lock, swipe up.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. When I'm like anxious, I don't know what to do and I'm just like kind of unlocking my phone. I'm like, notification, notification.

[Marques Brownlee]

Your unlock number must be crazy high due to the.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Do they track that?

[David Pierce]

They probably do. Oh, we should all look.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Your phone can track it, you can see it.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I didn't know that.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Digital well being or I forget what it's called on iPhone.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Is that on Android?

[Marques Brownlee]

It's called the same thing.

[Ellis Hamburger]

It's called the same thing. Digital.

[Marques Brownlee]

Well. Oh, on. Oh no, it's called like screen.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Screen time. Yes.

[David Pierce]

Which by the way, I looked at my screen time this week and it was not good. I was monitoring the situation.

[Adam Doud]

Are you on iPhone?

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Adam Doud]

Did you turn off joint device screen time? Because by default it sums every device that's signed into your icloud account.

[David Pierce]

Oh, really?

[Adam Doud]

Yeah. I used to be like, how do I have 18 hours of screen time? And then I realized, oh, it has my entire workday. Oh, which I usually have my devices. Maybe they.

[David Pierce]

And that doesn't actually track if you're looking at it.

[Adam Doud]

No. So if, if you have like jolt of caffeine or something on like at you, you can have 24 hours of screen time.

[David Pierce]

Oh, wow. Okay, that's good to know.

[Adam Doud]

Maybe they turned. This was like as of a year

[Marques Brownlee]

and a half ago.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. Anyway, that was a good one. Andrew. I agree with you that the bigger touch target should be the more.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Although if I can quickly.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Shut up Adam. Be the shut up Adam. Just agreed with me.

[Ellis Hamburger]

I feel like the reason why the more complicated thing is the tap is because they measure time it takes to do something and that's what they're optimizing for.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I'll fully admit that, that the reason they did that is probably based on the literal statistics that they have on the phone. I just think those stats are wrong.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, but feelings don't care about your facts, Andrew. Come on.

[Andrew Liszewski]

All right, let's talk about.

[David Pierce]

Let's talk about rockets.

[Marques Brownlee]

NASA sent people around the moon, around the sun.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I don't think I can name all the planets.

[David Pierce]

Is the moon a planet, Andrew?

[Marques Brownlee]

It's very specifically worded. There are so many interesting things about this and I just figured we could just pop through some of the most fascinating ones. First of all, the Artemis 2 mission is what it's called. These four astronauts went, they launched, they slung shot around Earth, they then flew a quarter million miles to the moon, slungshot around the dark side of the moon and then came back to Earth. And I think by the time you listen to on Friday, that's when they splashed down in the ocean. So like a week long mission and about 45 minutes of that was spent behind the moon, which is the farthest any humans have ever been from Earth.

[David Pierce]

Pretty sick.

[Marques Brownlee]

So cool. Yeah, they took some incredible photos from back there and they also sent them back to Earth for us to look at before they even got back here. And the photos are incredible.

[David Pierce]

They're so sick.

[Marques Brownlee]

And I have so many thoughts. Okay, first thing we started seeing is this is one of the, this is I guess the first mission where the astronauts were allowed to bring personal devices into space, meaning their iPhones and Android phones. And so we did get images from their smartphones as well sent back. And that's awesome. That's really interesting. Probably some of the best moon photos any phone has ever taken. Cause they're super close to it. We all like to think we can take moon photos from our phone.

[Andrew Liszewski]

But the Earth photo was the one that was popping off on Twitter.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yes.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Which was very funny.

[Marques Brownlee]

They looked great. They took photos out the window of their space shuttle and you could see Earth rise as they got further and further from Earth. The Earth got Smaller and smaller, and then they got closer and closer to the moon, and the moon got bigger and bigger, and until they, like, slingshot around the moon. I had to Google this. They went within, like, 5,000 miles of the moon's surface to do that gravity slingshot. So they were really close. I mean, in the scale.

[David Pierce]

In the scale of scale of the Universe.

[Marques Brownlee]

They went 250,000 miles, and then they got within 5,000 miles of the moon. I think that's pretty cool.

[David Pierce]

Compared to the biggest possible thing we can measure, they were pretty close.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, it was pretty interesting.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the shot on iPhone photos that we got from Artemis? I thought they were pretty cool.

[David Pierce]

I have some thoughts.

[Marques Brownlee]

I thought they might end up as a billboard pretty quickly. Yeah. Some people had stakes against that. They were like, let it just. Let it just happen organically. I'm fine with that. It's fine if it's never a billboard. But also missed opportunity from Samsung because Samsung gave.

[David Pierce]

Well, I saw some funny memes because, you know, the photos where they took the photo of the moon in the foreground and then Earth was in the background, which is like the opposite of what we usually see. There was a really funny meme where, like, the moon was in the foreground and then the background was a moon.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It's like, shot on iPhone.

[David Pierce]

I mean, shot at Samsung.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah, I was like, a bunch of those. Like, if Samsung took this, I saw people complaining, like, wow, it's a real shame they didn't use a Samsung for this photo with its zoom. And it's like, you're in space.

[David Pierce]

You're literally in front of the moon.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Why do you need. You don't need the zoom. You're in space. This is literally the opposite. Also, it was the iPhone selfie camera. There was really.

[Marques Brownlee]

Selfie camera.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

I mean, okay, I might get canceled for this.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Do it.

[David Pierce]

But I.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Maybe not. I'm just kidding.

[David Pierce]

No, I. I just don't think it's. People are like, wow, it's insane that this is the selfie camera. And I was like, well, yeah, I

[Andrew Liszewski]

thought it was cool if you took.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, it is cool. But it's like, yeah, it's the selfie camera. I mean, you can do photos with the selfie camera. Like, what's. What's so insane about that?

[Andrew Liszewski]

I guess it's like. I think more so is that this photo itself is incredible because it's Earth and we just don't see it. It really has nothing to do with the camera. Any phone could have basically Taken.

[Marques Brownlee]

It's just perspective. It's not even so much about the phone that's taking it. It's that we have all these, like, when you open your camera roll and you see the photos you took, and that's your perspective from the last couple days. And you know what a photo from your phone usually looks like. It's just crazy to think that their camera roll, they open it up, and it's a photo looking down on Earth from 250,000 miles away. And, like a shot of the moon, which is somehow right next to them. Like, that's just such a crazy thing to imagine. And it kind of, I don't know, humanizes it or puts it into perspective for us to appreciate that that's really how it looks to them sitting, looking out that window. Yeah. Pretty crazy stuff.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It'll be funny in, like, 20 years when they're scrolling really far back in their gallery. One day memories. Oh.

[David Pierce]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

This happens six years ago.

[David Pierce]

Just like six years ago today.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

What is the AI going to say? Like, it'll show you your dog and it'll be like, you on the moon. Does it know that they were on the moon? Like, what is it going to say?

[Ellis Hamburger]

You know how you can track your location and go Google Maps, like, going back all the way. I wonder what happens.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah. What is their fine.

[Andrew Liszewski]

My fog of world would have went crazy. Fog of world is like, where did you go?

[David Pierce]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

You have people's pins on. Find my. Where do you think those pins went?

[Ellis Hamburger]

Oh, that's just off the grid, literally.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, yeah. Can I do a little camera breakdown of all the cameras I used on this? Yes. Okay. So a lot of people were confused why they were using the Nikon D5, which is a camera that came out in 2016. And I've been screaming about this for years. And this is actually, like, finally starting to get better. So the reason they use the Nikon D5 is because it has very large pixel pitch. That's the size of the pixel on the sensor. If you have a bigger pixel pitch, you get more light per pixel, which means lower noise. And for space photography, that's very important because most of the background is black.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah. Not a lot of light.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

Some people are asking, why did they shoot with the Hasselblad? The Hasselblad is 100 megapixels, 100 megabits. But each one of those pixels is tiny.

[David Pierce]

Very tiny.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. So 6.4 is very big. And like 10 years ago, it was more common to have a Bigger pixel. It's only 20 megapixel camera, you know, which is fine. Like that's still a lot of resolution for like if you want to use as a desktop wallpaper or something like that. It looks very DSLR. They did also use a Nikon Z9, which is Nikon's like flagship camera that's out right now. That has a pixel pitch of 4.35 micrometers. So it's a little bit smaller. So very good. 45.7 megapixels. Obviously they're going to want to be able to zoom in on some of these pictures. They used a GoPro Hero 4 Black, which I saw some really cool photos

[Marques Brownlee]

of for make that Instagram post.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, in the Instagram post.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yep. That's like seven or eight years old at this point. We're on Hero 11 or 12 or something, I think.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

I was kind of curious why they did that. It might have been a similar thing with a bigger pixel pitch. I didn't actually look at what that pixel pitch was.

[Marques Brownlee]

I think what happens is these programs take so many years to build that they're not using typically state of the art. Like when they build this Artemis 2 thing, they're using the 2019, 2020 cameras when they start building it. So even though there's newer cameras available today, that's the stuff that they started with when it came to.

[David Pierce]

Seems like that would be the easiest thing to just switch out though.

[Marques Brownlee]

You know, they're probably similar resolution, but like computers and dimensions and stuff, they just lock that stuff in.

[Adam Doud]

It's the same reason the the software used to record the podcast is stuff called wildtracks and we're generally six or seven versions behind the most recent version because God forbid we just can't validate every single aspect. If we use one too many threads and it interacts with the lighting software weird and it crashes and we lose an episode. I'd much rather miss a few features and know it works.

[David Pierce]

Don't test in production.

[Adam Doud]

And that's on a podcast like picture. It's in space.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yes.

[Adam Doud]

There's no Best Buy in space.

[David Pierce]

If anything, GoPro really should have done the marketing campaign because they're like a

[Andrew Liszewski]

company way more up there.

[Ellis Hamburger]

I don't know if they're allowed yet. I saw someone say no.

[David Pierce]

I know.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Because NASA's like government funded and everything.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Ellis Hamburger]

You would have to reach out to the individual astronaut and ask them for their permission.

[Marques Brownlee]

None of that is.

[David Pierce]

But there was a lot of misinformation online. People are saying, oh, Apple probably paid for. And like, no, there was, there was actually confirmation that none of these companies paid to have their devices.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It's wild to think that when you just look at like these astronauts are from the US and what the US iPhone market share is, it's really easy to deduce that they probably have an iPhone.

[David Pierce]

And also, by the way, everyone's like, why Nikon?

[Marques Brownlee]

Why not Canon?

[David Pierce]

Nikon was the first ever camera in space. And the reason that happened was because one of the astronauts just happened to be a photographer and he bought a Nikon like before he went up into space and he just took some pictures. That was before Hasselblad. That's before Hasselblad started making their, their custom Hasselblad cameras for space. Which they left some of those cameras on the moon, which they should have just retrieved them because they've been there since 1969 or whatever.

[Marques Brownlee]

Oh, the cameras are still on the moon.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, the cameras are still on the moon. They just took the film backs.

[Marques Brownlee]

Wow.

[David Pierce]

Because they needed as little weight possible to be able to get back space litter.

[Marques Brownlee]

We should go retrieve those next.

[David Pierce]

Yes. We have the iPhone 17 Pro Max for the candid photos of the moon through the window, which I think was very sick.

[Marques Brownlee]

Those are fun.

[David Pierce]

They're just very sick. They're very cool. Yeah. They had 80 to 400 millimeter lenses for close up shots of the moon.

[Marques Brownlee]

Those shots look insane.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

I mean we get the most detail we've ever seen of the moon. I think my favorite shots are the ones that are wide angle through the window of the spacecraft so you can see the window frame and then you see what they see outside the window frame. It's hard to picture what it would be like to be on the spacecraft, but those are the shots that help me best understand what they're seeing.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. And then Overall there were 28 cameras placed inside and outside the spacecraft, which is very cool. If you go to the NASA website, they've been uploading all of these basically in real time, I mean, with a slight delay at the speed of light. But they're really cool. If you download the original images, you can get all the metadata for it. And these are very good OLED wallpapers. And I don't think that they're going to be OLED right as you download them, but if you take them into Photoshop and you lower the black point does it then they'll become oled.

[Marques Brownlee]

They'll look incredible.

[David Pierce]

So, yeah, I'm definitely planning on using One of these as a wallpaper for sure.

[Marques Brownlee]

My favorite photo that I've linked in the doc, which is the second link there, it's on Flickr, is the eclipse that they saw. So when they flew around to the dark side of the moon, there's a brief moment where the sun was behind the moon and the side of the moon was being lit up by a reflection of the earth. So they had the rarest solar eclipse of all time. Nobody other than these four people have ever seen this perspective of a solar eclipse. And they took a photo of the moon which is just this ball floating in space in front of them on a Z9. It's like a two second exposure and it's just the trippiest. I can't believe that's a real photo. It's insane.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

And then all of the background, you see all these stars and planets lined up and galaxies in the background behind them. Incredible wallpaper material. One of my favorite photos I've ever seen. For sure.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. No, it's absolutely.

[Ellis Hamburger]

It's already the wallpaper on my phone.

[David Pierce]

The glow in the back.

[Marques Brownlee]

It's awesome. Yeah. One more thing that a lot of people were curious about. They did livestream a lot of this. I remember watching the launch on NASA's YouTube channel on last Wednesday. There was like 2.8 million concurrent viewers, which is pretty sick. What a lot of people don't know is they kept streaming for a week and showing like the perspective of the astronauts as they got closer to the moon and farther from the Earth. And you might be wondering how they did that because there's no Internet in space. Yeah, they just were sending information directly back to. I think there's a series of three satellites on Earth where at least one of them is always pointing towards the moon or one of them is always pointing towards the spacecraft, no matter where they were in orbit. So they were always able to send data back to Earth. And that's how we have this little super low res but effectively live stream of the astronauts. And it's one light second away, tops. So it's not that much of a delay as they send that information.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

Pretty cool.

[David Pierce]

Pretty awesome.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Crazy. They could live stream this whole thing. Yet Netflix constantly can't get Love Is Blind reunion streamed properly on time.

[Ellis Hamburger]

There's more demand for that, Andrew, for Love is Blind.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah, yeah, I know.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

So they'd get it right.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. If you want to go see those photos, download those pictures, go to the NASA website. We could link that in the show notes to make it easier Speaking of, I'm really easy to make this transition.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Things that don't exist.

[David Pierce]

Things that don't exist.

[Andrew Liszewski]

We can joke saying allegedly. Every time you guys have talked about.

[David Pierce]

We can joke about that.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I don't even want to put it in.

[Marques Brownlee]

I will say that this is real.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Oh, no, stop. Don't put it in. Spoon is real.

[David Pierce]

Come on.

[Marques Brownlee]

There is a moment. There is. There is a thing happening on social media where there's way more conspiracy theory content.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

Because I don't even know how to talk about it. It's just like, obviously bait and it's engagement bait, but it's also like, there's never been so much of it, and it's never been so easy for dumb people to see it and probably just jump right along and believe it. Or weird.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Like you said. It's also. It's like that and rage bait, where people want to feel smart by saying, no, you're wrong and stupid, which is engagement and makes that person money.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, yeah. So don't engage. Don't engage. See the rage bait? Just keep scrolling. Yeah, that's how you win.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Dude. This.

[Adam Doud]

This question. What was the first camera in space?

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Adam Doud]

Okay, so interesting because it begs the question, what is space? And also, what is a photo? What is a camera?

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, this is.

[Adam Doud]

So this is like bonus episode gold, right?

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

Maybe we should do that. I know that the NASA has been licensing or been using Nikon camera since like 1971 or something.

[Adam Doud]

71, yeah.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, I knew that officially.

[Adam Doud]

There's some interesting stuff in here.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah. The original Moonrise photo was at Hasselblad. Right.

[Adam Doud]

Hasselblad was the first camera that NASA was like, we're gonna work with a camera company and make a space camera.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Doud]

John Glenn went to a drugstore and bought a Minolta that he had modified by NASA to be able to hit with a spacesuit. But then in 61, like a year, a few months before that, a cosmonaut brought a 16 millimeter camera. Like a Soviet 16 millimeter the camera. But then also, it seems like there were submissions with automated TV cameras out. Like, there's. There's some interesting. I think we should dive deeper into this.

[David Pierce]

So Hasselblad made special versions of the Hasselblad 500 series cameras that basically are pump action because the astronauts wear spacesuits. When you. The regular Hasselblad 500cm has like a small little shutter button that is like very hard to. Even with your regular finger. It kind of like pricks your finger a little Bit not actually like through your finger, but it's like kind of

[Marques Brownlee]

hard to use anyway.

[David Pierce]

They made it a pump action and then there's only three distant settings. There's close, medium and far.

[Marques Brownlee]

I.

[David Pierce]

They made a replica series. Twenty years later, they made a replica series of those cameras that they made a thousand of, which I own one of them because I'm crazy. And they made these special backs that could fit like way more film than most cameras. But I should have brought that in. Maybe I'll bring it in next week and I can show you guys. Pretty cool.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Sick.

[David Pierce]

Speaking of, did any of really cool things. Yeah, I guess.

[Marques Brownlee]

I don't know. Yeah, speaking of really cool things.

[David Pierce]

Better than what I have.

[Adam Doud]

Rolls of something.

[Marques Brownlee]

Rolls of. Good call.

[David Pierce]

They weren't really rolls. They were kind of.

[Marques Brownlee]

We did get to see Zach from Jerry Everything do a tear down of a phone that never shipped because it's LG's rollable phone. Fun fact, there's one in the mail here now.

[Andrew Liszewski]

What? Oh, like we got it. I know it's in the way.

[Marques Brownlee]

I have my sources.

[Ellis Hamburger]

This is breaking news to us in the studio.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, that's every week. That's every week. Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

So.

[Marques Brownlee]

So LG died in 2021 is when they shut down their like smartphone division. They stopped making phones. Yeah, 2021, I believe that's right. And so that's like.

[Adam Doud]

That's like. It's a crazy way to say you murdered them.

[Marques Brownlee]

No, I was gonna say the last two phones, actually, the last two phones that they shipped before they died was the V60 and the LG Wing. And I had a lot of nice things to say about the LG Wing. As insane as that phone was, that's crazy. But here's the thing about phones like the LG Wing. No one else would try that. And that's why we love lg and that's why they're dead. Yeah. So look, they also had a phone in the works that was like a rollable phone that went from a 5 1/2 inch phone and then kind of unrolled, motorized like a parchment screw. An 8 inch phone.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

We could have had it all. Rolling in the deep.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, that's like.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Is that street light?

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah. Anyway, yeah, so Zach got his hands on one. We will as well soon. And he immediately did a teardown, which is so his style. And you can see how over engineered this thing is. There's two motors. There's two motors. There'S this metal track inside. There'S three spring loaded arms. The Whole thing, like, plays. It doesn't play sound. It makes noise as it opens. And since it makes so much noise, they play like a musical chime to

[David Pierce]

sort of try and ask how loud that is.

[Marques Brownlee]

So it's really. It's quite a piece of engineering, just like the wing was. It's insane. And it never shipped. We don't know what they would have charged for it, what they would have called it, how they would have marketed it. But I do plan on trying to use it.

[David Pierce]

I'm excited to get that. I've not seen the video, but I am terrified at what that's gonna be like when he takes the knife to the screen.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Oh, no, he doesn't do it.

[Marques Brownlee]

He didn't do it in that video, though.

[David Pierce]

Thank God there's still time.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, yeah, there's still time he could do. But I suspect a phone like this would not be very durable. No, it would not hold water and dust out very well. Yeah, it has the soft outer screen totally exposed all the time.

[Andrew Liszewski]

No, that's what was really cool about it is when it folds into the back. There's an exterior glass screen that it folds underneath on the backside. And then so on the back, it's not the soft touch screen. I guess you're saying the front of it is the soft touch all the time, but the back works when it's not unrolled as a back screen, which is really cool. I actually like the way they engineered this thing. Was really impressive and probably would have been better made more sense than the LG Wing. It kind of was like. Remember the Xiaomi concept that was like we said, like 200% screen to body ratio. Yeah. It basically had a screen covering 60% of the back of it because it rolled around the backside. But. But the internals are really cool. The way it kind of those spring loaded arms are actually pushing the whole battery and internal module with the screen. There's some cool stuff. Definitely go check out his video. But yeah, he doesn't destroy it. He just actually uses it and takes it apart. It's the most careful I've ever seen Zach be. He's at the point where he's like, I am shaking open this right now. And it's really funny to watch this.

[David Pierce]

That's not the type of vibe you want for a phone that you use.

[Marques Brownlee]

It's like a relic. It's like you don't want to do any damage to it. It'll be interesting to see when we get it here if, like, using it in real life because you Know, the front screen is soft and it's never really protected as you use the phone.

[David Pierce]

So it's.

[Marques Brownlee]

It's. There's no way it's as durable as a regular phone. Yeah, no.

[David Pierce]

But, you know, I do like that sort of half screen on the back he just uses to see like his calendar and stuff like that.

[Marques Brownlee]

I think that that's pretty smart viewfinder for the camera. Dang.

[David Pierce]

I would buy this.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It's cool. You should definitely go watch that. And I'm excited to see this thing.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

Speaking of alternate form factors and never

[David Pierce]

getting shipped, I guess it was shipped.

[Marques Brownlee]

Well, this might ship. This probably will ship. IPhone fold actually, this entire week there's been articles both about how the folding iPhone is maybe delayed and not gonna ship in 2026. And then maybe it's actually not so delayed and it is gonna ship in 2026.

[Andrew Liszewski]

And both of those articles were posted from the same website on the same day. Which is why the only reason I added this, I think it's so funny that MacRumors had an article called foldable iPhone engineering delays could push launch to 2027. And also iPhone fold expected to launch on time in September despite delay rumors.

[Marques Brownlee]

So is this what hedging your bet looks like in real time? This is crazy.

[David Pierce]

It's nothing ever happens theorem.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Basically, both of these articles were just two different sources saying what they think is going to happen. One's Gurman, one's a Japanese newspaper, I believe. I cannot pronounce the name of the who wrote the article. But the one thing I did find interesting in terms of what they seem to agree on is while this is most likely going to be announced at the same time as the iPhone 18, even if it's quote unquote on time, it probably will not be delivered the same time as the iPhone 18. So I have no idea if this is going to be 2026. I think we will see the announcement in 2026. There's a chance this could be 2027.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah. It would be the first time we've seen like a staggered release of the phones. I don't know if you remember the mini and the plus when they came

[David Pierce]

out, but that was only a month later.

[Marques Brownlee]

It was only a month later.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Wasn't the iPhone X also a little after the.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, true, exactly.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Ten was after mini and that was Covid. That was like three though, wasn't it? It was like a couple. There was like three different dates of.

[Marques Brownlee]

I'm not gonna remember the exact order, but it was something like the Mini and the Pro Max came out after the regular and the plus or something like a month and a half later, which was, you know, easier to make videos about because they were staggered.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That was great, actually.

[David Pierce]

Do we want to take bets on this?

[Andrew Liszewski]

We already did.

[Marques Brownlee]

Did we?

[Andrew Liszewski]

Oh, we've definitely taken bets on if iPhone fold is coming out this year.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Pierce]

But we got new information. So do you think that it will be announced and then come out later, like in 2027, or do you think it will be announced and come out in 2026?

[Marques Brownlee]

I would not be shocked at all if we got this big fancy folding iPhone Ultra and they said coming early next year or coming.

[Andrew Liszewski]

You think they said September?

[Marques Brownlee]

Maybe not early, maybe December or something like that. I could easily see it being a staggered release to build some hype.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That's a really stag. How. How far away can it be to still be considered a staggered release?

[Marques Brownlee]

That's my point. Typically when they release a new iPhone, it comes out like what, two, three weeks later.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. My take is that if you announce something and then you wait too long, people stop caring. Google had this problem with the Pixel. Every time Google has launched a Pixel fold, it's come out a couple months later and people just forget.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Also every Sony phone ever. Sony?

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

Sony freaking announces them in September and they always come out in December and then no one buys it. Shocker, bro.

[Marques Brownlee]

They're proud of that too. I remember I talked about like some of the Stoney stuff. It was like 10 months later they come out with the phone and then they finally made huge strides and they were like, marques. We came out with the phone only three months after we announced it, which is a big improvement. But it's still waiting to do that. Just wait till it's done and ready to ship and then show it off and then ship it anyway. That's another story.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Every company that's ever existed.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

But yeah, I think it would probably make sense as like a month and a half staggered. Here comes the ultra type of thing.

[David Pierce]

I could see it.

[Ellis Hamburger]

I got a hot take. We're gonna see this at Dub Dub.

[Marques Brownlee]

Nah, see it no shot. 0%.

[Ellis Hamburger]

I think they're. Well, no, your whole showing it off, like with folding iPhone be like coming later this. I think that's gonna happen at Dub

[David Pierce]

Dub like we did with the Vision Pro.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Ellis Hamburger]

And then the phone itself will come out this year, but later that's possible.

[Marques Brownlee]

I have a. I'm so torn on this. I love that take because part of me is like 0% no shot that happens. Dub Dub is for development and it's for software. And any sort of hardware announcement overshadows all the stuff they wann like iOS28. But on the other hand, the times that they do show new hardware, it's specifically exciting to developers and things like the Mac Pro, which people could get excited to develop on. Vision Pro, which people could get excited to develop for and Folding phone. You know, if you're making apps, you kind of want to start thinking about how to optimize your app for different screen sizes. So maybe it does make sense to you.

[David Pierce]

Unless they basically just make it so it's automatic and it basically becomes an iPad.

[Marques Brownlee]

I mean that's the thing they'll, they'll do for sure. Yeah, that's gonna be this. Their strength is like you add one line of code and now it's amazing. Like you can make an iPad app by clicking one button basically. Yeah, but maybe you want to have some special, you know, animation for the unfolding or something. I don't know.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I think it makes sense like that. I just think Dub Dub this year is gonna be too much worrying about having to re announce Siri 2.0.

[Ellis Hamburger]

That's why I think they're gonna do

[David Pierce]

it, to cover that up.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, it'll be like, look at the

[Ellis Hamburger]

excitement of the fall.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Holding phone.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Forget about Liquid Ass.

[Andrew Liszewski]

But that's gonna look so bad if it's like we have to re announce the thing that's two years late. And here's the thing that might be late again.

[Marques Brownlee]

I think they could spin it cause you know what started to happen.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Pretend anything's gonna happen.

[Marques Brownlee]

Well, the thing that I've the take I've seen more and more online is that Apple being late to AI has actually been the best version of AI, which is, you know, all these phones are just shoving AI down our throats and Apple's kind of not doing that so much. And that's refreshing. We appreciate it. It's also because they stick to what they're good at, which is good hardware.

[David Pierce]

It's also because Apple didn't really spend billions of dollars investing in this kind of stuff. And now that AI is becoming so commodified, they kind of have like their pick of the litter on what they want to utilize. Right. So they, they picked Gemini because they had all these options. They didn't have all those options. When ChatGPT in the iPhone got announced, that was like kind of the only thing that they could do. And now it's like this awkward like middle Child that's like in the iPhone in a weird way. And they're probably going to get rid of that.

[Andrew Liszewski]

And yeah, it's nice that they can do it, but it's also really funny knowing that they tried and that was not the original plan and that they

[David Pierce]

failed, but they failed upwards.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah, they got very lucky on that.

[Ellis Hamburger]

You're going to fail, fail upwards.

[David Pierce]

And their stock is the only one that has not been impacted by AI stuff.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

You think of Apple as this huge tech company, and if AI is the next big huge tech, then they must be a player in that space. But they're not a player in every space. They don't make everything. So, you know, search engine, they don't make. They, you know, borrow the best one and show it to their users as a default and maybe that's not released.

[David Pierce]

Well, yeah, they definitely make.

[Marques Brownlee]

They're not a public competitor in that space. And I think that that's kind of ending up true of AI, where, okay, there's all these models, there's all these advanced development. They tried to jump in, it didn't really work. But they still, their bread and butter is still the device that you use to do the AI stuff on. People are clamoring to buy Mac studios that finally have enough vram. If you could tether three of them together with Thunderbolt, you can have a machine that runs openclaw and everything's local. People are buying Apple hardware still, and that's probably going to continue to be true. Yeah.

[David Pierce]

And I think ultimately they're realizing that People use different AIs for different use cases. And so they just want to be the. The main thing that runs the thing. They don't want to be choosing what you use with it. Like Apple intelligence, at the end of the day is just an extension of things that the phone could basically already do. And so that doesn't need to be the thing that does everything. Like you're going to use Claude on your phone, you're going to use Gemini on your phone, you're going to use OpenAI ChatGPT on your phone, if that's the service that you use.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

And so, you know, Google obviously has both and makes it, but at the end of the day, that could be a negative for them because if Google's trying to force you to use Gemini and things work better with Gemini than they do with, say, cloth, and you're like a Claude power user, you might be more incentivized to use the iPhone. That gives you more of a choice to use what AI you want to use.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Ellis Hamburger]

So there is no world in which that happens. There's no way that Google, the open one, would be more closed down with.

[David Pierce]

I'm not saying it would be closed, but like Gemini is so embedded in Android.

[Ellis Hamburger]

That's on like Gemini will always have its Android tie. Yeah. And it's Android Tie and its inherent like abilities to do more. But they're not gonna actively make you not use Gemini.

[David Pierce]

No, I know that, but it would be annoying if you're doing various things on your phone and it's prompting you to use Gemini. It's actively trying to move you towards a Gemini subscription.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Ellis Hamburger]

But I could just, like right now, I could just change it to Claude, like in the settings.

[David Pierce]

Change what to Claude?

[Ellis Hamburger]

My assistant.

[Marques Brownlee]

I think that that's probably what people are going to want from their phone is the well integrated thing, which is why it felt like it made sense for Apple intelligence to be really good because that's going to be the one that works the best across all these Apple surfaces. It's going to pull my messages and it's going to pull my Google, my Calendar from Apple Calendar and all these other Apple things. So I want the Apple intelligence AI to be good on my Apple device. And of course Gemini will be good across all these Google services. Pull from my Google Drive, Google Photos, Google whatever. So that's what we were hoping for from Apple Intelligence, but now they're just kind of giving us the choice of other ones that don't really talk to Apple stuff.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Doud]

I'm not a businessman. I don't know how money works.

[Marques Brownlee]

I'm a businessman.

[Adam Doud]

However, I've always understood Google's whole business model to be we're going to either sell our hardware at a loss or with the slimmest possible margin we can do. Because you're going to use all these Google services and we can harvest your data.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Adam Doud]

And so I kind of agree with David. I see going forward, Google's going to be like, you're using Gemini because if someone buys a pixel and then uses Claude, they're losing money on it.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's an L for Google. You bought the pixel.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. You don't have pixels.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Google.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's an L for Google.

[Adam Doud]

That's a Google. Yeah. I'm saying Google all of a sudden is not making like they're still harvesting all your data because they're using a pixel, but they need the Gemini data, I think, to really make it worth it.

[Ellis Hamburger]

I think my thing is that no AI is making money anyway. Google can just burn money because they own the Internet.

[Adam Doud]

No, but Google will make money by getting training data off of your Gemini chats and then also using the data they get from you via your Gemini chats to make your ads more targeted.

[Ellis Hamburger]

But they're getting that data already from the iPhone, which is giving them a billion dollars.

[Marques Brownlee]

On top of that, I think they

[Ellis Hamburger]

need 3% of Pixel users to use Gemini. They're going to let you use Anthropic.

[David Pierce]

Guys, I think I might have just gotten clapped back, but what I'm saying, what I'm saying is like Google is always going to be pushing you towards Gemini.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Right?

[David Pierce]

Because all of their services, all of the things on the phone, like, it's so embedded into the phone that it's easier to use Gemini. And so if you're like a Claude super user, you might be kind of annoyed that like now half of my context is in Gemini and the other half is in Claude. And whether or not that ends up being a thing that incentivizes people to buy an iPhone, it probably won't be. But it's just kind of an interesting interaction because of the way that AI has been commodified.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Well, more so. My thing, my point was, I don't think there's a world where Apple is more open with that kind of thing, with sharing the context between different AIs than Google.

[David Pierce]

I kind of disagree with that specifically

[Ellis Hamburger]

because Apple has the servers that they're making with Google in partnership. Like Anthropic has servers from aws, they have servers from Azure, they have servers everywhere. Apple is not going to let your data go to some random server. They want control of the server, which they have a partnership with Google.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, and the things that happen like autonomously with the phone are obviously like through Apple, through Google, through those servers that are, you know, nothing touches it. I just think they care less about what AI that you use versus Google really, really wants you to use Gemini. And the market incentives will probably push them towards making Gemini the choice they want you to.

[Adam Doud]

You know, I think you both have really, really valid points in the sense that I still, I really see where you're coming from, where it's like Google doesn't have as much of an incentive to lock you into Gemini as I think thought they might have at the outset of this conversation, I think. But also I do think Apple's opinion on this matter would change a lot more than Google's. When you're talking about just like a normal generative transformer versus something agentic that's like monkeying around in your phone.

[Andrew Liszewski]

For sure.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah. I think there's also probably a world where a lot of people at Google believe that if you do use.

[Adam Doud]

I'm sorry, Andrew's face.

[Andrew Liszewski]

No, my pixel makes me want to never touch Gemini.

[Adam Doud]

Marques, please. I'm sorry to interrupt you.

[Marques Brownlee]

Go ahead.

[Adam Doud]

The look on Andrew's face was.

[Marques Brownlee]

I guess I think that there's probably a lot of people at Google who believe that they want you to use Gemini because that represents the next stage of all of the data harvesting that they do. And if you start using a different AI and start doing all these searches and all these queries and all this stuff, that represents a bunch of data that they're not getting 100%. And so if they're allowing people to move on from Gemini to a bunch of other stuff and then they slowly get less and less data from the old ways of gathering data, then they miss jumping the boat.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, I mean, think about this. They're basically transitioning from Google search being their primary revenue driver to Gemini. So if they're not getting as if they don't have as many Gemini users, that's like a huge impact for them.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That's what I.

[Ellis Hamburger]

That's what I'm just. I'm trying to envision a world where I can go into the iPhone settings and change Siri to Claude versus going into the Pixel settings and changing Gemini to Anthropic, like to Claude. And I'm trying to think which one

[Marques Brownlee]

is more likely to happen really, just because of who's a player in the game. I think like the way you can choose your search engine now on the iPhone, you could just move it from Google to whatever you want is the same because they don't make their own search engine. I think when there is a Claude, an Anthropic and a GPT and a Gemini, you can do that on the iPhone and pick your model as well, because they don't have a competitor in that space.

[Adam Doud]

But not to just regurgitate Adam's earlier point, but I totally think that's the case with a chat. However, if everyone's trying to get these agentic models that can actually do stuff inside your phone, it seems to me like a more uphill thing getting Apple to let an agent run on someone else's servers. And I can't believe Apple would want us want to set up their own data centers to run agentic other people's agentic models.

[David Pierce]

The agentic stuff is probably going to be a local Gemini nano model. Which is different from the things that are hitting the servers.

[Adam Doud]

Yeah, but that sucks. I want local Claude, I want local Haku.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. And I don't think that Apple is going to allow multiple different models for that because they want the user experience to be unique and the same across all devices. I could see Apple eventually working with Anthropic and OpenAI for the AI stuff that happens in the cloud because then they're creating a marketplace where they can reduce the cost that they're paying to those model providers. And also it gives people the option to, you know, use whatever commodity that they use.

[Adam Doud]

Hear me out. We do a bonus episode.

[Andrew Liszewski]

This feels like.

[David Pierce]

Yes, sorry. This is like a whole episode.

[Adam Doud]

We get Tim Cook, we get Sundar, we get Sam, and we just go, who was right? Tell us who was right. Which one of us is right? Was it me?

[David Pierce]

I want to do a cage match.

[Ellis Hamburger]

This was not supposed to go on this long.

[David Pierce]

We were talking about the iPhone fold.

[Adam Doud]

No, but it's an interesting. Is an interesting question and it's one that we will get the answer to

[David Pierce]

I think in a couple months.

[Adam Doud]

Pretty soon. Yeah. And then we'll find out who was right.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

Okay. Andrew, you see that up by the moon. That's the Rails. We are so far off the rails. Wow.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I was going to add my one thing about AI phones, which is my pixel. I came across this thing the other day where I was like, my Google home. My like Nest doorbell isn't giving me notifications anymore. What broke on this? And I realized I turned it off because I was getting so annoyed at. I changed my Google home camera stuff for the notifications to like. It says you can use AI to search through activities that happen. But what it really does is not just that, but every time it sends a notification, it's this like really long, terrible sentence about what may have happened. And I got so annoyed at the notifications of like a person walks up from a delivery drain to the things just like, I just want to see there's a person at the door. That's all you have to tell me. And having 3:30 of those notifications, I guess I got so mad I turned it off one day and forgot and then realized a month later and there

[David Pierce]

aren't like granular settings to there might

[Andrew Liszewski]

be something in there now I just wanted it to be able to search like, did somebody drop something off between 2 and 4?

[Marques Brownlee]

And that should work.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That I think it part works, but the notifications suffer verbose and it's in. It's so bad. And it also, even though all of my family's faces are attached in there, it correctly identifies the person one out of 40 times.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Whoa.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Despite almost looking directly at the camera, like face scanning it.

[Marques Brownlee]

Mine's pretty good. I remember the day I started getting the new notifications because it would always just be like, person, person, person, movement person. Now it's like a UPS driver dropped off a medium sized box at the door and I'm like, I.

[Andrew Liszewski]

But then you click that and it's like, Claire coming home with groceries,

[Marques Brownlee]

I would say might have been like 90% way too accurate. And then 10% totally off.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Oh, mine's 90% totally.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's weird.

[Adam Doud]

While we're talking about Ring shout out to the new Ben Jordan, another absolute banger. It's terrifying surveillance.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I just like to say hi to everyone watching me when I. Yeah, all right.

[David Pierce]

Well, that went quite a while. Can someone transition?

[Andrew Liszewski]

Samsung Messages is getting shut down.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. Okay, thanks.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I mean, yeah, it actually is a good segue because that segue was as abrupt as Samsung shutting down Samsung Messages. Because they're basically like, yo, peace, this gone July.

[David Pierce]

That's kind of a segue within a segue.

[Adam Doud]

What is Samsung Messages?

[Marques Brownlee]

So maybe like a decade ago, a few years ago.

[David Pierce]

Oh, boy, there we go.

[Marques Brownlee]

No, this is not. I'm making sure, I'm making sure.

[David Pierce]

No, no, no, no.

[Marques Brownlee]

Samsung used to ship their own messages app. And you know, every, you know, you bought a Samsung phone and there'd be Samsung Messages and have its own chime and have its own layout. It was just exactly like Google Messages or whatever. And I would always actually go to the Play Store and download Google Messages because I liked it better. And then one day, maybe five, six years ago, I'm not sure exactly when, six or seven, six, seven years ago, they started just shipping Samsung phones with Google Messages by default. Like, they stopped shipping it with Samsung Messages. They still supported it and it still existed, but they just accepted that people just use Google Messages when they buy an Android phone. And now it's a couple years later and they're like, all right, we're not gonna keep supporting Samsung Messages. So whatever servers, whatever service there was, it's gone. If you still actually use Samsung Messages, be very careful.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah, the thread on the Samsung subreddit is very upsetting.

[Marques Brownlee]

Well, if I'm on the Samsung subreddit, I probably am more likely to be a user of Samsung Messages.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Just what's crazy?

[Ellis Hamburger]

Two month heads up. That's why.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That's really fast. That's pretty fast.

[Marques Brownlee]

Pretty fast.

[David Pierce]

What happens when it eols?

[Marques Brownlee]

I assume you can't send messages using the app anymore?

[David Pierce]

That'd be insane.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It's gotta be.

[David Pierce]

It should just update and auto download Google Messages and replace it.

[Marques Brownlee]

I mean that's essentially what you're gonna want to do at this point. Yeah, but it's crazy that they're making

[David Pierce]

people do that manually.

[Marques Brownlee]

Well, I think they accepted that this would happen at some point, like five years ago when they stopped shipping it as a default on their devices. But they should have given people a heads up way, way long ago when they stopped shipping as a default that hey, we're gonna shut this down at some point. They probably just didn't know they were gonna do it now. They just decided they're doing it and they're doing it in two months.

[Ellis Hamburger]

So yeah, like very little Samsung. I doubt he's gonna know to update before June or July, you know.

[David Pierce]

But is it update or is it also have to download Google Messages?

[Ellis Hamburger]

That's a great question.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I didn't understand what you're saying. Yeah, for the people who don't know, not everyone's gonna see this thing. Are they just gonna three days later be like, I haven't had a text in a little while.

[Adam Doud]

Don't worry, it's totally okay. Everyone knows Android users notoriously awesome at keeping their phones up to date. Literally the best user base for hitting the update button. They're gonna be fine.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

The Verge says 2024 is when they started shipping as a default Google Messages. I feel like it was way too early.

[David Pierce]

It might be possible. Well, they did it because of rcs. They were trying to like really force people onto Google Messages. Cause for a while Google Messages and weirdly like Verizon messages were the only app supported rcs.

[Marques Brownlee]

Right.

[David Pierce]

And then they had that weird bromance with Google for a long time that sort of is still in action, but not as much anymore. Yeah, I don't know, it's strange.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Can I rant about the time? Sorry, quick tangent. I like it because it has to

[Andrew Liszewski]

do with the first ad breaks gonna be 57 minutes the next.

[Ellis Hamburger]

I got ratioed so hard on threads.

[Marques Brownlee]

What did you do?

[Ellis Hamburger]

I posted a screenshot of Google Messages on a Samsung device and I circled the whole top half of the screen just says Google Messages. Like the logo.

[Marques Brownlee]

Right.

[Ellis Hamburger]

And I'm like, why is this here?

[David Pierce]

I agree with you.

[Ellis Hamburger]

That's so like half of the screen is just unusual information.

[David Pierce]

Why would you get ratio for that?

[Ellis Hamburger]

Everyone was like, bro, just scroll. And I'm like, I know how apps work. I'm saying, why isn't there information here?

[Marques Brownlee]

Wait, there was a moment where everyone applauded that white space. They were like, wow, how thoughtful. I can reach my.

[Ellis Hamburger]

So that's the whole point. Yeah. That's why I'm getting ratio. Because one UI is, like, for one and it's like. Yeah, I know. I'm saying it's stupid because if you go to, like, Samsung phone app, they make use of that space. It's not things that you can tap or whatever, but it'll tell you, like, you have a missed call, you have, like, useful information. Why don't I have that in other places?

[David Pierce]

I have a question for you. Because I haven't used Google messages in a while. If you.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Okay.

[David Pierce]

Can you pin message threads or messages?

[Ellis Hamburger]

You can, and it's. It stays in the middle. It doesn't pin to the top the way it does on. On Apple.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Adam's just saying it should be usable space. Yeah, I think that's totally fair.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Or not even, like. Well, yeah, I guess usable, but, like, tell me some sort of useful information.

[David Pierce]

It should just be a clock. Click it.

[Marques Brownlee]

Like, just be a clock.

[Ellis Hamburger]

I would be happy with that.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Just show you the clock.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It's going to be ads one day. Next.

[David Pierce]

Next topic.

[Marques Brownlee]

Don't give them those ideas.

[David Pierce]

It's just going to be a giant Gemini button at some point.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Samsung messages shutting down. Less choice sucks. We're going to leave a little pause here for all the people who are about to type. Just use WhatsApp. Go on, do it. I don't want you to miss any more of the episode. Got it. Almost little angrier.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Perfect.

[David Pierce]

Less choice does suck, but I would never be sad to see Verizon messages plus implode. That's all I'm gonna say. Just saying. That's a good take.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Fair.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's a good take. Yeah. All right, well, we should take a quick break. We have talked for quite a while about a bunch of things, and now we should do trivia.

[Andrew Liszewski]

The next one was going to be a nice, simple little section.

[David Pierce]

Well, it could be simple for the

[Andrew Liszewski]

beginning of the beginning. I'm just kidding. It literally says debate.

[David Pierce]

There's no chance it's not related. I think we're all on the same page.

[Andrew Liszewski]

We are not. Oh, I know. Yeah.

[David Pierce]

Good to know. This trivia.

[Adam Doud]

Trivia. A little bit of foreshadowing. After the break, we're going to talk about what is, in my opinion, the craziest tech news story of the year. Assuming no one's lying Anthropic's project Glasswing. But the question is, where does the term Glasswing come from? And it's multiple choice. A Glasswing is an experimental F1 rear wing design from the Ground Effect era of cars. B A Glasswing is a Central American butterfly with transparent wings C A Glasswing is a type of parachute used by first responders to jump into dense forest canopies or D it's an acronym General Layer Analysis Screening with integrated neural GPTs. GPT standing for Generative Pre Trained Transformer Nested acronyms.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Nested acronyms.

[David Pierce]

Wow.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I'll take the nest.

[Marques Brownlee]

Okay. That is, I definitely wouldn't have gotten that without the multiple choice. I still might not get it, but we'll think about that. Answers will be at the end like usual. We'll be right back.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I don't think I want my parachute to be called a glass wing.

[Marques Brownlee]

Foreign. Support for the show comes from Zapier. When it comes to bringing AI into your workflows, there's no shortage of hype. But turning that hype into something real and actionable starts with the right tools. Zapier is here to help. Zapier turns strategy into execution, so you're not just talking about AI, you're delivering on it. With its AI orchestration platform, you can bring AI into any workflow and focus more on what really matters to your company. You can even connect top AI models, including ChatGPT and Claude, to whatever tools your team already uses so you can incorporate AI exactly where you need it. That can be workflows, an autonomous agent, a customer, chatbot, or whatever else. You can orchestrate it all with Zapier, letting you do more with your time. And it's designed for everyone, not just tech experts. According to data from Zapier, teams have already automated over 300 million AI tasks using the platform. So join the millions of businesses transforming how they work with Zapier and AI. Get started for free by visiting zapier.com wave that's Z-A P I-E-R.com wave support for the show comes from Framer, so the reason you create a website is so that your business can thrive. But some websites just don't look the part. Framer can help with that. Framer is the enterprise grade no code website builder used by teams at companies like Perplexity and Miro to move faster with real time collaboration and robust cms. With everything you need for great SEO, not to mention advanced analytics that include integrated AB testing, your designers and marketers are Empowered to build and maximize your.com from day one. So whether you want to launch a new site or test a few landing pages or migrate your full.com framer has programs for startups, scale ups and large enterprises to make going from idea to live site as easy and fast as possible. Learn how you can get more out of your.com from a framer specialist or get started building for free [e-mail] wave for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's Framer.com wave for 30% off Framer.com wave rules and restrictions may apply. Refreshing Wild Cherry cola meets smooth cream, the treat you deserve.

[David Pierce]

Pepsi Wild Cherry and cream cream.

[Adam Doud]

Treat yourself.

[Andrew Liszewski]

All right, welcome back. Got a little debate for y'.

[Marques Brownlee]

All.

[Andrew Liszewski]

So David Pierce wrote an article on the Verge this week called Vertical browser tabs are better and you should use them. About how Chrome finally added vertical tabs to their browser and then listed out some of the reasons why you should use them. So I know a lot of us on this podcast have some very strong opinions about vertical tabs. So I thought the best thing to do is to talk about how we like them or don't like them. List some of the reasons David Pierce laid out. And in true podcast fashion, we can debate him in a situation where he can't defend himself.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

Okay, so he's very pro vertical tabs.

[David Pierce]

David, on the next Vergecast episode, you will respond.

[Marques Brownlee]

This is how we.

[David Pierce]

This is how we start YouTube drama. You gotta make response videos to each other.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, that's actually valid.

[David Pierce]

And we haven't done this yet. So it's time. I think it's time.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Let's all start. I think you two are pro vertical tabs. Right.

[Marques Brownlee]

Here's my browser right here. Vertical tabs on the side. Yeah.

[David Pierce]

You think I'm pro vertical tabs. This should be common knowledge.

[Marques Brownlee]

It's also 75% of why I started using ARC.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, ARC. I mean, in the episode where I where I talked about arc for the first time, I explained it so horribly. But the only thing where I was like, this is amazing, was vertical tabs.

[Andrew Liszewski]

What about you?

[Ellis Hamburger]

Two vertical tabs all day.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

Thank you.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Yeah.

[Adam Doud]

No horizontal tabs.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Horizontal tabs all day.

[Marques Brownlee]

Interesting. And is this because you haven't tried or you dislike vertical?

[Ellis Hamburger]

His screen is square.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's actually very important for this.

[Adam Doud]

I know.

[Marques Brownlee]

Very valid.

[Adam Doud]

Even better, though, when I'm a browsen, I'm one of those people who is stuck in the year 2011 and I

[David Pierce]

use

[Adam Doud]

command and one through nine to go through my tabs.

[David Pierce]

You memorize which tab is in which number.

[Adam Doud]

It's not really like a. I mean I guess then you make it sound like it's a big mental task.

[David Pierce]

Sounds like one.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's how you switch between tabs.

[David Pierce]

But you still have all of your

[Marques Brownlee]

tabs up at the top of your browser.

[Adam Doud]

Yeah, but the buttons are horizontal.

[Marques Brownlee]

Oh, interesting. Oh, so maybe there's a little mental alignment.

[Adam Doud]

No, it's just wrong the other way. Like sorry.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's valid.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Okay, I'm pro horizontal tabs with L. Pro horizontal.

[Marques Brownlee]

Does that mean you are anti vertical?

[Andrew Liszewski]

Oh yeah.

[Adam Doud]

I would interest I'd be down with like a grid of tabs and then I could use the numpad for that. But they need to be, they need to be in shape like a three by three grid of tabs.

[David Pierce]

Do you have a numpad?

[Adam Doud]

Yeah, on all my computers. Pro Tools pretty much requires you to have a num tab. I use my laptop almost exclusively in dock mode with a keyboard with and like 400 peripherals. Yeah, yeah. I'm out of, I'm sorry, I'm out of USB ports on every single setup I have. Which is hilarious because I have a Caldigit TS5. Like it's just anyway everything. Yeah, I like horizontal tabs, but I'm also a Safari user.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[Adam Doud]

So I don't think my opinions are super valid.

[David Pierce]

That's crazy. I, I, it's crazy that you're you use Safari because if you, if you're docked all the time, the battery life doesn't really matter.

[Marques Brownlee]

And Safari is only good for one thing, which is battery life.

[Adam Doud]

That's not.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I like the icon.

[David Pierce]

Unfortunately accepted facts commonly accepted.

[Adam Doud]

Accepted. Who lunatics?

[Marques Brownlee]

I would say ask any browser enthusiast.

[Adam Doud]

This is not what this conversation was

[Andrew Liszewski]

supposed to be about.

[Marques Brownlee]

What are we debating?

[Adam Doud]

So attacking Ellis reasons Safari is goaded. It's okay. One I'm on an Apple silicon laptop. Battery life is gonna be legit no matter what or where I'm going.

[Marques Brownlee]

No, no, it's not. That's not true.

[David Pierce]

It's not.

[Adam Doud]

I'm a super turbo power user. I can at least get like 4 hours of battery life minute.

[Marques Brownlee]

The difference between Chrome and Safari in regular browsing for several hours is shockingly high.

[David Pierce]

Huge.

[Adam Doud]

Really?

[Marques Brownlee]

Oh y. Oh my God. This laptop lasts is terrifyingly long lasting Battery on Safari is average at best with Chrome.

[Adam Doud]

Wait, so why are we hating on Safari then?

[Marques Brownlee]

So you're saying you use it docked so that the performance and efficiency. Battery gains that you get are effectively not important at all.

[Adam Doud]

No, the performance is super important.

[Marques Brownlee]

Performance is great. I like having RAM on the computer valid and I think there's, there's a little bit more of a. Obviously people depends on how much RAM you have. Where this argument becomes more important. But how long it takes to open the browser, I notice Safari is faster. And then once I'm into browsing, I notice effectively no difference. And the battery life is the main thing that I would use Safari for.

[Adam Doud]

Interesting. My thinking is one, I do a lot of RAM heavy tasks all the time. I really like having as much RAM free as possible at any given moment. Love that. Two, I'm a little bit of a security freak. Like over the past few months I've become way, way, way more freakish about my data. And I love private relay. Like I see private relay, like securing me all the time now and then. I guess I don't really use like browser extensions very much. It's like very not often that I see a browser extension that I'm interested in. And then whenever I like I have Chrome installed on all my computers for when there is like a specific extension I need to use. But I have yet to find a single browser extension that I'm like, I'm. So this is so essential to my life that I'd be willing to use 60 gigabytes of RAM.

[David Pierce]

Do you use the Claude in Chrome extension?

[Adam Doud]

I do. That's the only time I open Chrome. So I'll be doing all my stuff in Safari and then I'll have a Chrome window open that Claude is controlling.

[Marques Brownlee]

If I can make an analogy, when I first got Andrew to use a Tasks app and There were like 75 options and you were like, I'll just try Google Tasks first. And I was like, okay, it's a good. The default one. There's no advanced features and no plugins or anything crazy like that. But it gets you in the door. That is Safari, I think. Yeah, as soon as you find like two or three features that are not available in tasks that you start to lean on, it's the same thing as finding two or three extensions in the browser or two or three UI features in the browser that you start to lean on and then you're like, Safari is so far behind, it doesn't have. It has extensions. But like the amount of UI fun and trickery and elegance and interesting things happening in. I mean ARC is obviously the one we talk about a lot, but so many other browsers, they're just not in Safari.

[Adam Doud]

Yo, I really. I really want to talk about tabs. I don't want to say, do you

[Andrew Liszewski]

know what features really stupid to lean on? Vertical tabs.

[Marques Brownlee]

Okay, let's talk about vertical tabs.

[David Pierce]

You can literally lean on them because they're vertical, like a wall. You can't learn on something. You can't lean on the ground. It's horizontal.

[Marques Brownlee]

All right, your monitor's widescreen. This is the default, right? Your monitor's widescreen when you have a bunch of tabs at the top. It's cramming them all into the top, and you can't see anything. Put them over to the side. You can have as many tabs as you want. You'll never run out of room. You don't run out of vertical real estate because your tabs are only a slot. So just horizontal tabs just make sense for a vertical browsing experience on a widescreen monitor. Agreed.

[David Pierce]

Agreed.

[Ellis Hamburger]

All right.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Agreed in that scenario. But scenario. Well, okay, there's more scenarios in this one. Do you guys use your Mac dock on the side?

[Marques Brownlee]

It's at the bottom.

[David Pierce]

What's a Mac?

[Marques Brownlee]

Actually, on my desktop, it is.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It's on the side.

[David Pierce]

I don't use on the side. That's crazy.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Why would. Why not? If it's widescreen and it's vertical, I

[David Pierce]

don't really use my dock.

[Marques Brownlee]

I see what you're doing.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. I just. It's the exact same. No, no.

[Adam Doud]

I think Marquez might win this one because I. Well, because he does use it when

[Andrew Liszewski]

Adam uses it on the side also.

[Adam Doud]

What? No, no, no. I used to use it on the side, too, but the. I. The icons are square, and so it's. It doesn't matter what direction, whereas writing is horizontal.

[Andrew Liszewski]

So you could imagine about width of screen, real estate, and that a. A general web page is vertical. This is something David Pierce says also. He says, precious vertical pixels. Virtually every modern computer display is widescreen. Most web pages are taller than they are wide. So if you're reading in a thing, you don't need the width of space.

[Adam Doud]

I don't. I don't agree with that. I think that. I think the idea is that, like, if you have something that is larger in the horizontal dimension, then you'd want to stack it vertically because you lose less information per instance.

[Marques Brownlee]

I think it's even simpler. It's. I have more horizontal pixels, so I will waste more of them on tabs. I have less vertical pixels, so I want to scroll less by having less things. Wasting my vertical pixels.

[David Pierce]

Something you Guys are disregarding is the magical ability to hide your tabs. Arc. This is my goated ARC setup. Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

Hidden tabs.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. You swipe, okay, the active page, you swipe over and then your tabs come out.

[Andrew Liszewski]

There's something so funny about you not doing that with your dock. What do you say? You don't use your dock.

[David Pierce]

Well, I don't really use my dock.

[Marques Brownlee]

You can hide your doc.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Exactly. You should hide your dock.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, I should. I never thought about that.

[Andrew Liszewski]

You should definitely hide your dock, but. Okay.

[David Pierce]

This is the Go to Ark set up. You have two windows. ARC does have a feature where you can have like two. It's one window, but you have two separate pages. But that's lame.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Can I pause you right there really fast?

[David Pierce]

Okay.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Because that's what I wanted to say. Everyone's talking about width of screen real estate. I put two windows up. So now. Yeah, yeah. I don't have that much screen real estate now. In two windows, if you're not doing his go to dark setup. If you have two windows with vertical tabs now, you're taking up so much space, but there's nothing. And you have this buffer in between your very specific scenario.

[David Pierce]

Come on. Most people hide the tabs in ARC

[Andrew Liszewski]

in arc, but he's. This whole article is about Chrome.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, because Chrome sucks.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I think by default you don't hide your tabs, right?

[Marques Brownlee]

No, I don't.

[Andrew Liszewski]

So if you have two browser windows. Sorry, I feel like I'm interrupting a lot here, but I don't want to miss specific things we're talking about.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

If you have two browsers open side by side. So now it's tabs, article, tabs, article. And it's all like. Yeah, that's all.

[Marques Brownlee]

I do that sometimes. On a widescreen monitor, it's still fine. There's enough horizontal.

[David Pierce]

On your 32 inch monitor.

[Marques Brownlee]

Well, it's wide.

[David Pierce]

It's a wide. But what about your 14 inch MacBook?

[Marques Brownlee]

There are people who use ultra wides. Anyone who uses an ultra wide cannot possibly justify not using horizontal tabs. Vertical tabs. Yeah, for sure. You gotta use vertical tabs.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, they're not.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, but on a. On my, you know, the Pro display or whatever, it's still widescreen. I still got plenty of horizontal pixels to spare. And every website is vertical.

[David Pierce]

What about this computer? Your 14 inch MacBook Pro?

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, I got one window. You have one window?

[Ellis Hamburger]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

Okay.

[Adam Doud]

What about Mac OS and not Windows? Idiot.

[Marques Brownlee]

One window dock's at the bottom. I could easily move the dock to the Side. That's totally valid point, but yeah, I. I see all my.

[David Pierce]

Can I see.

[Andrew Liszewski]

What about watching videos in a browser?

[Marques Brownlee]

What about it?

[Andrew Liszewski]

It's widescreen. You're losing a bunch of real estate, especially in an MKBHD 2 by 1 video.

[Ellis Hamburger]

I watch videos on my phone all the time.

[Marques Brownlee]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry, I'm watching a video in my browser. It's a widescreen video. And then you just.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Vertical tabs is making it smaller.

[Marques Brownlee]

But you like full screen. Oh, no, it's not. There's still extra horizontal. There's still white space to the left and right of every video. Really? Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Open up YouTube right now.

[Marques Brownlee]

You don't maximize so much left and right.

[David Pierce]

You don't maximize.

[Marques Brownlee]

If I maximize, it's full screen.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, exactly.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, I just. Full screen.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It's.

[Marques Brownlee]

Whatever. But here's.

[Andrew Liszewski]

What do you mean?

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, Black space. Black space left and right.

[David Pierce]

There's. What the heck?

[Marques Brownlee]

There's just more blank space. The video is the same size.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Oh, shit. Can you do an MPBHD video? Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

It's two by one, though, if I switch to.

[David Pierce]

Well, which is what?

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah, yeah, which is why it would be okay.

[Marques Brownlee]

Oh, that's what you meant by two by one.

[David Pierce]

Okay. Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

So this is a bluey phone review. And so now there's. This is about. Almost perfect. Still extra horizontal space. Okay.

[David Pierce]

Now get rid of it.

[Marques Brownlee]

Same size video.

[Andrew Liszewski]

You're right.

[Marques Brownlee]

Same size video. Hide my tabs. I got plenty of horizontal pixels to work with here. Yeah, it's all about the vertical space.

[Andrew Liszewski]

If you want your request. If you're outside of theater mode, it does. Oh, okay. That kind of screws my point up there.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, the video is the same size. So I. I'm a big. I agree with David Pierce, I think, which I'm going to read his article, but I assume he's saying, precious vertical pixels. You need those.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah. I did do a super, super scientific test, which is I took a screenshot of my browser with vertical pixel, or, sorry, horizontal tabs and vertical tabs. I brought it into Photoshop. I took total pixel size and took a percentage of space inside my browser window and how much it's taking up.

[David Pierce]

Okay.

[Marques Brownlee]

But yeah, it's going to take up more space, but you can spare that. That's like saying I have two bank accounts. One of them has way more money in it, and I'm spending a larger percentage of the smaller one, but the smaller one was just for extra stuff. That's a terrible analogy. But it's like I Have a front yard and a fly. I got one. I got a front yard and a backyard. The backyard is smaller, but it's the backyard. Like I can do whatever. So if I have a front yard and I've been putting like I want to put a sculpture in one of these yards, okay. I can put a way bigger sculpture in the backyard because it's my backyard. I can do whatever I want. I've got extra grass back there. The front yard is precious to use for front yard stuff. I'm bad at this.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I'm saying I would put a sculpture in the front yard if I was getting a sculpture because I would help me out.

[Marques Brownlee]

What is a good nail? I have a driveway. I've got a two car garage.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Horizontal tabs.

[Marques Brownlee]

I got a two car garage and

[David Pierce]

I have a. I'm trying to understand what you're saying.

[Marques Brownlee]

I have a Hummer.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Okay.

[Marques Brownlee]

I have a two car garage and I have one massive car. A Hummer Hummer Ev. If I wanted to build a gym in my garage, I would build it in the half garage that it's not being used while I still park the Hummer in the big garage slot.

[David Pierce]

And how does this relate to the tabs?

[Marques Brownlee]

Because that half garage is extra.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Right?

[Marques Brownlee]

Okay, so you're saying it takes a big. The gym takes a huge portion of that second garage spot. But who cares? It's the second garage spot. I wasn't using it for anything. Does that track.

[David Pierce]

I see what you're saying. I think the difference, what would need to happen is the Hummer would need to be able to expand to fill in the space allotted, which is not how Hummers work.

[Marques Brownlee]

No, the gym expands. The gym is what's expanding.

[David Pierce]

The gym can expand.

[Marques Brownlee]

You're building a gym in the garage.

[David Pierce]

Oh, I see, I see, I see.

[Marques Brownlee]

You have a two car garage.

[David Pierce]

So the Hummer is the tabs is what you're saying.

[Marques Brownlee]

And the gym is the tabs. The gym is the tabs.

[David Pierce]

But the tabs don't expand to fill the whole screen, right?

[Marques Brownlee]

No, but they, I mean, they take up more, you're saying. So Andrew said. Okay, Andrew said that when I switch to vertical tabs, it's turning into blank space. Way more.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Well, it's overall taking up more space inside of the browser. The browser is for looking at webpages. It's taking away more space for the webpage.

[Marques Brownlee]

And my argument is it's taking up way more space, but it's taking up a whole bunch of space that you weren't going to do anything With. Because every website is.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Is vertical, not. Yes, everyone's majority of websites.

[Ellis Hamburger]

What if I want to see the banner?

[Andrew Liszewski]

Some of those things. If I'm also on my computer putting multiple windows next to each other vertical, I'm losing horizontal space. So therefore now if there's a vertical tab list on every single one of those windows.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It is destroying real estate.

[David Pierce]

You don't even need to have this argument. If you just do what you're supposed to do, which is to do the hover thing where the tabs expand in the browser.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That's going to be sunlit or sunset. Sunset within the next year.

[David Pierce]

I don't care.

[Marques Brownlee]

Can you hide? Can you hide. Can you hide your tabs at the top? Do you have top tabs?

[David Pierce]

Oh, I don't know.

[Marques Brownlee]

Can you hide those?

[Ellis Hamburger]

I think you can turn off the like bookmarks bar or whatever the tab. Oh no, wait.

[David Pierce]

Okay, here's my take. Look at this. Look at it. Look at your screen.

[Marques Brownlee]

Look at your screen, Andrew.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Perfect.

[David Pierce]

There's like, there's like 12% of your screen that's being used by useless.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It you're in a different thing. You're basically in like a full screen mode.

[David Pierce]

Me? Yeah, yeah. Because that's how you should use your computer.

[Marques Brownlee]

Okay. I have so many takes.

[Ellis Hamburger]

I have a way to take.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Wait, can I just say the percentages of what I calculated?

[Marques Brownlee]

Sure, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Horizontal tabs took 3% of the total pixels used by my browser window. Vertical tabs took up 14% of the total pixels of the browser window.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, yeah, whatever.

[Ellis Hamburger]

So my take is. I would argue that's functional space though, because the way that I use my vertical tabs is folders and they're drop down so when you click on one it pops out underneath. So I could see everything.

[David Pierce]

Let's go.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Can't you do.

[David Pierce]

You can do tabs waterfalling, cascading. That's how folders work on your computer.

[Adam Doud]

If you only have like three, three tabs open, is the entire sidebar just empty then yes.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah. And you weren't gonna use those pixels anyway.

[David Pierce]

And that's why you gotta be mean.

[Marques Brownlee]

Why is that so hard to understand

[David Pierce]

the amount of tabs that you have open?

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, If I have 20 tabs, it

[Andrew Liszewski]

fills up the whole list.

[Marques Brownlee]

But I never have that many tabs open. And this whole left area, which was not gonna be used either way, switch to vertical. Switch to the top tabs. It's also still blank because the website's in the middle of the screen. So those tabs are all white no matter what you do. Just so you might as well have the superior.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Well, yeah, it just takes up like eight times as much screen real.

[David Pierce]

Unless you hide them.

[Marques Brownlee]

You say screen real estate like it's precious, but it's blank pixels.

[David Pierce]

Hide them. This all gets solved if you hide them.

[Marques Brownlee]

Every website.

[Andrew Liszewski]

When you hide your doc. Right now, I'll hide my dock.

[Marques Brownlee]

Right now, every website. I'll do it up and down.

[David Pierce]

I'll do it.

[Marques Brownlee]

Everyone, every single time.

[David Pierce]

Scrolls vertical turn hiding.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I need to have a screen.

[Marques Brownlee]

Boom.

[Andrew Liszewski]

My.

[David Pierce]

Look at that.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I just want to see your two web browser windows open with vertical tabs side by side next to each other doing something. Yeah, you do have way more. You're like widescreen people are stupid. But I have two.

[Marques Brownlee]

I also have two monitors.

[David Pierce]

No more doc for me.

[Marques Brownlee]

Wow. It's committing to it.

[David Pierce]

I'm committing.

[Marques Brownlee]

I like that.

[David Pierce]

I don't click on those things. I just do command space.

[Marques Brownlee]

Actually. Yeah. Wait, I'm gonna do that too. I'm gonna hide my dock.

[Adam Doud]

Wait a second.

[David Pierce]

Is this something we can all agree on?

[Marques Brownlee]

Because I'm a Raycast.

[Adam Doud]

I was gonna say I can't.

[Andrew Liszewski]

The real end to this whole debate is everyone has way too many tabs open and just do whatever you want. Not man. Well, thought it was fun.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. That's the whole reason I liked Ark in the first place. Because I have way too many tabs open and it closes them for me.

[Adam Doud]

You don't want Ark. You want an AI browser owned by Atlassian.

[David Pierce]

Get me my Jira ASAP. Integrate with my KPIs.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Also, Firefox has had vertical tabs for a while. Yeah, I don't use them. I'm just saying Firefox.

[Adam Doud]

Andrew's the meme of like the guy in the party who's like no one here.

[Andrew Liszewski]

No, I use Firefox.

[Marques Brownlee]

I also hiding the document.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Totally understand. I'm the last person you should be taking advice for.

[Adam Doud]

No, I'm. I'm the last Safari.

[Andrew Liszewski]

My desktop is insane. It makes no sense. My. On my. The Pro display xdr, I use that big screen real estate by just having a bunch of different sized aspect ratio windows where a corner of them's popping out all over. So that's how I can just click between all my different windows. And I also am running Android Studio because I don't have Instagram on any of my devices, which means I can't share things to my story. So I now have a virtual Pixel 9 running on my desktop just so I can Add things to my story when the studio tags me.

[Marques Brownlee]

I think what we're learning is all of us have very different habits on our desktops, and we just kind of have to use a word works for us.

[Adam Doud]

You know, you didn't let me talk about the most goated Safari feature of them all, the one that literally is causing Safari to lap all other browser offerings.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Oh, God.

[Marques Brownlee]

Okay.

[Adam Doud]

You guys ever checked out your reading list?

[Marques Brownlee]

No, I've only ever accidentally clicked that.

[David Pierce]

You know, there's like. There's like 8,000 extension Chrome extensions that do that.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, I use a. You can save things to your. I don't even know, interior bookmark aggregation service with a simple plugin that is multi platform. Multi platform that syncs to all your devices.

[Adam Doud]

See? But I don't know what background processes that's running. I don't know what servers it's connecting to.

[David Pierce]

Wait, okay, before we move on, I have reading list.

[Adam Doud]

I'm on my computer at work and I see an article that I'm interested in and I'm like, Chrome has. That I'm doing. Shut up. I'm talking here. Okay, buddy? And then I'm like, damn, I want to read that. But I'm doing work right now, you know, and then I get on the bus and I open my phone and I hit reading list.

[David Pierce]

You can do that with Chrome.

[Adam Doud]

I get a. I don't care.

[David Pierce]

Okay.

[Adam Doud]

You know, you know, you know how many hoops I have to go through. I have to put my computer on a spit over like a fire and spin it while doing some, like, tribal dance.

[Marques Brownlee]

Just put it in a fridge like.

[David Pierce]

Alice, I understand that you're like, you're, like, traumatized from the iPhone 12 mini battery life. So now you're only focused on battery life. And I understand.

[Adam Doud]

Understand that I'm focused on ram. I'm focused on RAM and I'm focused on. I don't like my browser connecting to random servers. I didn't tell it to because I downloaded some random extension from somewhere in the world. Okay. Yeah, yeah, thank.

[David Pierce]

Come on, man. I want to make my virus soup. I have a quick question for you guys. What browser do you use on your phones that I.

[Marques Brownlee]

Actually, that's a good question. I have several answers.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Quick question.

[Marques Brownlee]

No, on my Android phone, I use Chrome. On my iPhone, I use ARC and Safari. What? Unfortunately.

[David Pierce]

What do you use Safari for?

[Marques Brownlee]

I default to arc, but I have several tabs that I leave open in Safari that I always go back to.

[David Pierce]

Why don't you just have them on arc?

[Marques Brownlee]

I Don't know this.

[Andrew Liszewski]

This conversation is gonna end and all of our audience is gonna be like, why do I listen to these people? These are the people I take advice from.

[David Pierce]

This is just revealing that a lot of us like started habits that we just didn't think about and now we're.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I wasn't prepared to.

[David Pierce]

Why are we doing this?

[Adam Doud]

No, I've tried to switch. I've used. I didn't. I never tried ARC because I was so annoyed. But. But I've tried every other browser. I even tried the, the Perplexity One, Comet.

[David Pierce]

Comet.

[Adam Doud]

You know, I, I haven't tried Opera GX either. Ask me what I use on my phone.

[Ellis Hamburger]

What do you use on your phone?

[David Pierce]

Safari.

[Marques Brownlee]

You must.

[Andrew Liszewski]

If you have reading list, please don't use Safari.

[Marques Brownlee]

You have the reading list on your phone, right? Safari Music.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Is this Safari Music?

[Adam Doud]

Yeah, yeah, it was supposed to be Safari.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Safari icon is the superior icon of everything.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, I've tried to use a bunch of icons.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Safari is fine. But the reason why I can't go all in on it is because it's not multi platform. Yeah, like that's basically it. Like at home, I use a Linux computer. I can't download Safari on the Linux computer.

[David Pierce]

Also can't download on your Android phone.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Yeah. And I can't download on my Android phone. And I switch back and forth all the time.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

I've been weaning off of ARC slowly. I should be leaving Ark on. Why? Because the lack of updates. I just know it's not gonna perform well in like a year. It's gonna be a slow crawling mess.

[David Pierce]

It's been dead for a while and

[Marques Brownlee]

I still use it, but do you ever check on other browsers and go, oh, ARC is this low crawling mess.

[David Pierce]

I check on other browsers but like, what do you mean by slow crawling?

[Marques Brownlee]

Like it takes like 30 years to open. No, it doesn't take 30 years to open. Try opening another browser. See how fast it opens. My God.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I mean, I think David hit the nail on the head. It's habit and all of us are in weird habits. And a browser is one of those habitual things you're in so much that any change feels really weird.

[Marques Brownlee]

Does ARC still sync?

[David Pierce]

I don't know.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yes, yes, yes, it does.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yes, yes.

[Marques Brownlee]

Maybe I'll switch back and hate myself a little more.

[Ellis Hamburger]

It's a good thing none of these browsers have any critical vulnerabilities.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, that's a great segue.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I think they all do.

[David Pierce]

They actually all do.

[Adam Doud]

They actually.

[David Pierce]

Everything Actually, everything does. Okay. Very, very big story drop.

[Ellis Hamburger]

I love this episode. This podcast has a critical vulnerability

[David Pierce]

insane story dropped yesterday. Tuesday, April 7th.

[Adam Doud]

ChatGPT is in your car now.

[David Pierce]

You know it's going to happen eventually. Anthropic announced also that a large project called Project glasswing, which is a joint cybersecurity effort to patch various vulnerabilities across different OSes, across various software. The reason this is a big deal is because I think last week, or possibly the week before, we talked about how Anthropic had accidentally leaked a bunch of stuff that it had been working on for a very long period of time. One of those leaks, probably the biggest of those leaks, was a new model called Mythos that they've been working on, which is the biggest model they've ever trained. It has trillions of parameters. It is this giant kind of behemoth.

[Marques Brownlee]

It's a good name.

[David Pierce]

Yes, very good name. They trained it specifically to be good at coding. Something that they found out after they trained it was not only was it good at coding, but a side effect of being good at coding was that it was extremely good at cybersecurity and finding bugs and things like that. They, you know, were messing around with it. They were like trying to do some cybersecurity stuff with it. They found thousands of high severity security vulnerabilities, including some in every major operating system and web browser. And it can chain together various different security vulnerabilities to come up with more powerful outcomes. So for an example, in Linux, they found various different vulnerabilities that allowed you to have access to admin, access to any Linux computer by chaining together a bunch of these different bugs. That is in the Linux kernel.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That's combo.

[David Pierce]

Combo brain get comboed.

[Ellis Hamburger]

The scary thing too is that it did it autonomously. Autonomous, like just by itself?

[David Pierce]

Allegedly.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Allegedly.

[David Pierce]

All of this is alleged, by the way, because they did not. They're not releasing this to the public.

[Adam Doud]

Dave and I were talking about how in the Mythos release paper stuff, like there were a few things.

[David Pierce]

System card.

[Adam Doud]

Yeah, yeah. There were a few things they described as unprompted, which were like basically prompted. Definitely prompted. So it's like you got to take all this a little bit of a grain of salt.

[David Pierce]

But the System card, which is kind of like this, it's like 200 and something pages of like, what happened during their testing process of this new model. There are various things that were kind of interesting that happened, but that they definitely kind of hyped up a little bit to Catch more headlines. Like, for example, they put Mythos in the sandbox environment and they instructed it to break out of the sandbox environment and it did. And you know, in the little, there's this little like, what's it called when you put a little ticker above it that says like 10 and then lower down it's like, this is what 10 means. What's that called?

[Andrew Liszewski]

Oh, reference. Annotation.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, annotation. They put an annotation and they were like, it, you know, autonomously broke out of here.

[Adam Doud]

You talk about footnotes.

[David Pierce]

A footnote. Yeah, sorry, footnote, not an annotation.

[Adam Doud]

That was the most abstract way I've ever signed.

[David Pierce]

I'm thinking about it in my head.

[Adam Doud]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

So in that one they had said like, the security researcher only realized that had broken out of the sandbox when he received an unprompted email from the model telling it it had broken out of the sandbox. And I was like, well, okay, that is kind of crazy. But at the same time, like you said, it said when he received an email while he was in the park eating a sandwich, which is like, why did you say that? And then the other was like, it

[Adam Doud]

was not just prompted to break out, it was prompted to keep.

[David Pierce]

To let them know. Yeah. So it's like, you know, it's get

[Andrew Liszewski]

what it's supposed to.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, it's crazy that it's able to do that. Like it was able to run JavaScript and figure out a way to like break out of the sandbox by running specific JavaScript things which like, no one's supposed to be able to do. But regardless, anyway, so because this model they found to be so powerful, they formed this alliance called Project glasswing, which is a multi company security effort where they're giving Mythos to a number of different companies because they have found major security vulnerabilities in every major OS and most of the platforms like, and apps in the world. So anyway, they're also giving access to 40 different organizations to use Mythos previews, to be able to preview, to be able to secure their environments before this kind of cybersecurity AI agent is unleashed on the world. Because I think if there's one thing we know, it's that if you make software and you say we're not going to make this available to the public, it will eventually become available to the public, either because you decide to eventually release it or because someone else hacks you, or because OpenAI or Google eventually develops an agent that's just as powerful and can do the same things. So what they're trying to do now is they're basically trying to secure major software before agents come out that can find vulnerabilities in all of this software. Yeah. There was also a bug in OpenBSD that has been present for 27 years that nobody knew about that is able to crash any machine. So, yeah, pretty big. Pretty big vulnerabilities there.

[Adam Doud]

There was also one in FFmpeg which

[David Pierce]

is like the video encoder decoder.

[Adam Doud]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

I'm gonna do a single thing uses.

[Adam Doud]

Exactly. It's just. Yeah, it's.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's.

[Adam Doud]

Exactly. Sorry, I know you explained it so much better than I was going to be able to, but yeah, it's code that's present in most software that is able to encode and decode videos because why would you write it yourself when you can just pull it off the shelf? So, yeah, essentially most software, it turns out, had zero day vulnerabilities that it took a robot to figure out.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. So I think that the kind of scary thing about stuff like this is that part of the AI race is that there are companies that will say, well, if Anthropic's not going to release this, we're going to develop a model that's just as powerful and we're going to release it because we want to gain market share. That's what people are freaked out about. And so that's why Anthropic is trying to like secure this stuff ahead of time, in my opinion. I don't think they should have even put out the blog post before. They did a lot more work on this, but it's possible.

[Ellis Hamburger]

That's where my alarm bells go off.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Why would you even tell anyone about this?

[Andrew Liszewski]

Because it got leaked.

[David Pierce]

That's what I was going to. Yeah. I think the main reason why they ended up like talking about it was because it got leaked.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Oh yeah, they leaked the whole source code. Exactly who I want in charge of cyber security.

[Adam Doud]

Right. I know. They leaked OPUS source code.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

It wasn't.

[Adam Doud]

And in and in Opus, they found references to this thing called Mythos. So everyone is like, what the hell is Anthropic Mythos?

[Ellis Hamburger]

It could have just been like nothing, don't worry about it.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

They also had little characters that you could dance around and you could have on your computer, which is arguably more important.

[Adam Doud]

The disclaimer that David and I, when we were talking about this, David and I carpool to work on Wednesdays together. So we talk about all the pod stuff. But the thing that David And I really wanted to talk about is just that, like, it's. As much as this seems legit and seems freaky deaky, you know, they have a financial interest in lying, so maybe they're lying, maybe they're not. I don't know.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, they got, you know, 12 large corporations and 40 organizations, and they have all these quotes and they have people in the video talking about how important it was. One of the best security researchers in the world said that while he's been using mythos, he's found more bugs than in his entire career.

[Adam Doud]

Yeah, no, it definitely. It definitely seems pretty legit, but I just also know, like, you should take all this with. I've been listening to Sam Altman saying he's one second away from curing cancer for the past two and a half years. And so, you know, yeah, I'll take it all with a grain of salt.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Don't worry. He bought a podcast. We're all good.

[Adam Doud]

Oh, my God, dude. Yeah, Speaking of. Of safety.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Speaking of safety.

[David Pierce]

Oh, that's good. That's good. That's good.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Good job.

[Marques Brownlee]

Nicely done.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I saw this article, this release today, and I just thought it was a cool little article. Skoda, the car company, is designing a bell for your bike for the sole purpose of being able to penetrate active noise canceling. So the car company released a new bell, and they are talking in their video about the release of it. In London, a city with 1.5 million bike commuters per day, a city where 54% of all headphones sold have in active noise canceling and has also seen a 24% rise in cyclist pedestrian collisions. They decided that they needed to work on this new bell because while there are obviously so many variables between pedestrians, cyclists, automobiles, and everything, they believe that the mix of smartphone usage and active noise canceling is being detrimental to situational awareness and recognizing alert sounds. So what they decided they had to do was find a way to make bells on your bike noticeable by somebody wearing noise canceling headphones. Um, which also. This can't. So there's this big study. We'll link it in the show. Notes. Um, Ellis could potentially make me help me explain this better, but they essentially tested the top six most popular headphones with active noise canceling to try and find a frequency that Ellis, is this the easiest way of describing it? Active noise canceling essentially looks at the frequencies that are coming in and then re.

[Marques Brownlee]

Plays a reverse.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Plays the reverse version of it to cancel out the noise. So they found that 750Hz was a frequency that for whatever reason, ANC just wasn't really able to handle in terms of blocking out.

[Adam Doud]

They found a bunch of things they found. Okay, so they found a few different things. The first is that how cluttered the noise environment that you're in affects what frequencies the ANC is better at canceling out versus others. So when there's a lot of noise going on, certain frequencies are better. When there's not a lot of noise, other frequencies penetrate better. Another thing they found was that tonal frequencies, like frequencies that have a clear bass and then harmonic stack on top of them, work better than sounds that are a little bit more random and chaotic and what we would call noisy. There's a. There's a bunch of interesting things. But yeah, largely that that's the big thing is that in a lot like there are certain situations where 750 hertz works really well. And then there are certain situations where I think it was like 1k or 2k or something like that work. Swish works really well.

[Andrew Liszewski]

So I thought what it was is that the 750Hz was the frequency that ANC basically was not able to counteract. And so that could pierce noise canceling headphones.

[Adam Doud]

Let me.

[Marques Brownlee]

Isn't that like a super, like a bass?

[Andrew Liszewski]

It is. So. So the reason this is, this is called the Skoda Duo bell is because the 750Hz can break noise cancellation, but that is a very low noise for people who are not wearing noise canceling headphones. So that bell just by itself at 750Hz probably won't actually alert somebody in an environment that's not wearing the headphones. So that's why the bell has two different frequencies on it. One is over 2000 hertz because that is still a general, like bike bell alert sound that people are used to. So people who aren't wearing headphones, it would be crazy to do this whole thing to help people with headphones and then make it worse for, and not alerting people who aren't wearing the headphones.

[David Pierce]

I'm just trying to imagine the sound of a bike chime, but in a much lower pitch.

[Marques Brownlee]

I don't know if I would. I guess it would be interesting to hear. Like if I'm listening to music and it has bass in it, that's gonna sound like a more bass.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I would assume it's something different you're not used to. You're wondering what that sound is. Maybe they, the way they tested it is through this kind of complicated way they like did virtual reality where one person was walking, that's 750.

[Marques Brownlee]

That sounds higher than I thought. Okay, but like if.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Well, I guess it's one thing the, the whole. The bell is all mechanical. It's not digital. 2000's pretty high. I was listening to these before to try and see what they sounded like, but you also have to think of it. It has to be in a bell that goes like the way they did it is they tested it by a person in virtual reality, was wearing noise canceling headphones and was in the, in the virtual reality supposed to be doing something on their phone to be paying attention to it. It's hard to imagine these as the bike tone that would be on, but that's much louder. Uh, and so in their testing, they found that people wearing ANC headphones heard the bell 22 meters earlier or 5 seconds sooner than an average person biking, which is, yeah, huge. Um, so yeah, it's something they're testing in London. They're planning on expanding it. I want it because when we are trying to do water runs in the studio and everyone's wearing headphones, I want to try and alert everybody. So we should just put it at the front door so we can just ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, and everybody can then, no, we're going to do a water run.

[David Pierce]

Why were they in VR when they were testing this again?

[Marques Brownlee]

So they can get that money?

[Adam Doud]

Because they weren't just the original testing. Yeah. So they weren't just being like, how well do you hear this? They were simulating distractions both in the foreground background and periphery. And so they were trying to figure, like, not just how well can you hear something, but how well does the ear response actually reach your brain? Because when you're riding a bike, you're focused on stuff. Well, I guess not ready when you're in the world.

[Andrew Liszewski]

They're saying people with headphones are generally also a lot of times looking at their phone and just completely unaware of what's going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One thing in here though is with all the testing, they did create a graph of the AirPods Mac Bose Choir Comfort, Sony WX1000, AirPods Pro, JBL Live Pro and Samsung Galaxy Buds. And they have a graph of how well the mean attenuation is. And AirPods Max just kind of blow

[Marques Brownlee]

everything out of the water.

[Adam Doud]

I was a little confused by this because they don't, they don't say which generation of these they use. That sort of frustrated me. Like, they don't say which Sony's they don't say which AirPod Pros, which AirPods Pro. There's only. Oh, no, there is the new one.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Now there's a new one. But I think this happened before that. That came out like last week.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, just. But yeah, none of them have a number. Yeah, true.

[David Pierce]

Apple's got to be very.

[Marques Brownlee]

Like, the new Galaxy buds are way better than the. Right. At noise canceling specifically.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, yeah. Apple's got to be very annoyed at this chart because they. They said AirPod Pro and AirPod Max. And as we know, Apple's very specific.

[Andrew Liszewski]

There's a lot about this. The Sony WX1000s, they just get even. They were like, this name sucks. I'm not listing the whole thing in it. Samsung, Galaxy Bud and just JBL Live Pro, all lower.

[Ellis Hamburger]

A part of it might also be because they're trying to like, like, not make it about the individual headphones. Like, that's not the point. The point is just headphones in general.

[Andrew Liszewski]

You know, the point of our.

[David Pierce]

They say the individual headphones.

[Marques Brownlee]

They do. They listen to the.

[David Pierce]

They do. Break it down, guys.

[Adam Doud]

What's my least favorite thing in the world?

[Andrew Liszewski]

The noise of a bees. Asshole.

[Adam Doud]

It's frequency response charts. It's frequency response charts because there's so much information about noise canceling that this graph does not show. So I. I'm also not mad that because you would not be able to look as much as I want to be like, ellis is right. AirPods Max or the goat. But it's like, for example, the speed of the drivers, like, how fast those drivers can move in and out will affect how much of sudden sounds are able to be canceled. The excursion of the drivers, how far spatially they can move from their resting point is going to affect how much really low booms are able to be. There's a lot of other features that you can't just be like, like, x frequency is canceled. Y amount.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Adam Doud]

If anyone ever sends me a frequency response chart, block my number, bro.

[Andrew Liszewski]

What do you mean?

[David Pierce]

It's kind of like an empty.

[Adam Doud]

I said what I said.

[David Pierce]

It's kind of like an MTF chart for lenses.

[Adam Doud]

It's like when people are like the sound stage of headphones. I'm like, miss me. Straight, straight up, miss me.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Well, I have many thoughts, but we have to get going.

[David Pierce]

Adam, you should try.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I just want to try. I want. I want the bell and I want to see what it sounds like.

[Adam Doud]

I mean, we all. Andrew, you and I, we always want the bell, baby. But, you know, like, boy, what does that mean.

[David Pierce]

What does that mean?

[Adam Doud]

Taco Bell.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Oh, got it, got it, got it, got it.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, same.

[Adam Doud]

But no, we should. I would be interested in obtaining this.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I don't know how we will because it's only in London right now. But Skoda, if you're listening, I. I

[David Pierce]

would fly to London anyway. Adam, do you want to transition to us into your rant?

[Marques Brownlee]

Speaking of.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Speaking of things that I'm angry about.

[Marques Brownlee]

There you go. There it is.

[David Pierce]

You're angry at Bells.

[Ellis Hamburger]

No, not. Not really. More so.

[Marques Brownlee]

Weren't speaking about it.

[Ellis Hamburger]

No, I'm mad at Ellis's frequency response.

[Marques Brownlee]

Oh, I.

[David Pierce]

Okay.

[Ellis Hamburger]

But also about Pixel 10a coming out in Japan in blue.

[Marques Brownlee]

Okay.

[Ellis Hamburger]

I have a few questions here.

[David Pierce]

Okay.

[Ellis Hamburger]

So if you don't know the Pixel 10a got a Japan exclusive variant that is like a nice blue color. It has its own cool icons and wallpapers and all this stuff. Yeah, it's neat. Fine. I'm confused because isn't this just the Pixel 10 color? Like, the blue looks exactly the same.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Oh, that's where.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's where you get triggered. The design people. It's such a specific blue.

[Ellis Hamburger]

It is a very specific blue and it has a special name and everything. But I'm looking at it and again, we don't have the actual device. So I'm looking at it on the screen.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yep.

[Ellis Hamburger]

And I'm looking at the Pixel 10 that we have here in the office.

[David Pierce]

Yep.

[Ellis Hamburger]

And I'm just like, it's the same picture.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, they're the same picture.

[Marques Brownlee]

I don't know what it is about these companies that they sort of over. Maybe they overdo, like, how much they think we care about the exact color. You know what Motorola does? They do like a. They have a partnership with Pantone and they'll do a special edition phone that is in the Pantone color of the year. As if I've ever met anyone who even knows what that is.

[David Pierce]

Tim.

[Marques Brownlee]

Like, we do have designers here.

[Adam Doud]

You don't remember Cosmic Latte?

[Marques Brownlee]

No, no. I know that there are people who care about the Pantone Color of the year, and those people are a very specific person who pays attention to colors and new things like that, and that's very exciting to them. But does Motorola think that there is a huge audience that's like, oh, man, I can't wait for this Pantone Color of the Year to be a phone? I guess they do think that because we get that every year. And so here comes Google and they're like, we've got this very specific Blue. And no, no, no, it's not the same as the Pixel 10 Blue. It's a certain. What are they calling it? Isai Blue. Am I saying that right?

[Ellis Hamburger]

Isul Isaiah.

[David Pierce]

I think it's named after the designer.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah. It seems like this is less about the color and more about the collaboration.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Which.

[Ellis Hamburger]

That's my next.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Next point.

[Ellis Hamburger]

That's a really cool collaboration. That dude is like, a great artist. Why do we get Wicked and spongebob themes here in the States while Japan gets this?

[Marques Brownlee]

I think you know the answer to that question, because people here know about this and people there know about that.

[Andrew Liszewski]

How many. How many times do we reference this guy? And how many times do we reference spongebob?

[Ellis Hamburger]

That's fair. That's fair. Also a little annoyed. Just generally about Pixel availability. Just because it just came to Mexico, like this past year. There's multiple countries where not all the features are available. It's like. Like Pixel stuff is just all over the place and it's very confusing. But more so. The. The main reason why this caught my attention was because when I saw the article and I clicked the link to watch the video, the video popped up in 4 by 3. And it's from Google Japan YouTube channel with a 4 by 3 video. And I was like, what?

[David Pierce]

Google Japan is so stylish.

[Marques Brownlee]

The arts.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Yeah.

[David Pierce]

If you go to Google Japan's YouTube channel, everything they do is so awesome.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Yeah. But every other. Well, not every other video. A few other ones that I clicked on are just regular, like 16 by nine.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Ellis Hamburger]

This one was four by three. And I think it has to do with, like, the artsiness of it. But I just found it so interesting because Google is like the most corporate corporate company.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. And they're not as corporate as, like, Microsoft, though.

[Ellis Hamburger]

I would disagree.

[Marques Brownlee]

Really?

[Ellis Hamburger]

I think they're very corporate in different ways, I guess. But I think they still have this, like, idea of whimsy from back in the day. But they are super corporate. And the fact that I clicked on a video and it was four by three, I was like, whoa.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, yeah, that was my brand.

[Adam Doud]

I have to. I have a correction. Cosmic Latte was not a pantone.

[Andrew Liszewski]

How dare you.

[Marques Brownlee]

Don't worry. There's already. There's already seven comments.

[Adam Doud]

I'm so sorry. Cosmic Latte was. Remember, like 10 years ago. They were like, this is the average color of the universe.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Whoa.

[David Pierce]

Cosmic Latte.

[Adam Doud]

How do you guys not remember this? This is like the most Marquette space and color.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's. I. If you can rail against frequency response charts I'm railing against average color of the universe. That is the most useless thing I've ever.

[Andrew Liszewski]

What?

[Marques Brownlee]

The average of the universe.

[David Pierce]

That sounds like something you'd be interested

[Marques Brownlee]

in, but you only see, like, the average of the universe. Zero is black. It's nothing. Most of the universe.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Well, is that a color? Is that a latte?

[Adam Doud]

Not according to Johns Hopkins University, bro.

[Marques Brownlee]

All right. I mean, there's obviously the core of a neutron star, which is the brightest thing ever.

[Ellis Hamburger]

The average color of the universe is infrared.

[Adam Doud]

No, it's cosmic.

[David Pierce]

It's cosmic latte.

[Marques Brownlee]

Is it in the visible light range? Is what you're saying is the average of the universe.

[David Pierce]

Oh, you mean if you compressed it into the visible light range?

[Marques Brownlee]

Light seems insane. Yes.

[Adam Doud]

You know, Marquez, I would read about. I don't understand this stuff.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I don't understand.

[Marques Brownlee]

For those wondering the cos, the. The Pantone color of the year.

[David Pierce]

It's freaking 2026 pan, bro. It sucks. It's lame.

[Marques Brownlee]

No, it's blue. No, it's not Cloud Dancer this year.

[Adam Doud]

That's lit.

[Marques Brownlee]

114201.

[David Pierce]

What? What happened to cream?

[Ellis Hamburger]

Yeah. All of a sudden, I'm a big fan of Pantone.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That's awesome. No, Adam, I looked up the only other Google Japan video I could ever think of, which is their 2022 April Fool's joke, which was they just made a keyboard where all of the letters are one really long stick, and funny enough, starts in four by three. And then when they announce the board and starts swiping down, it expands to widescreen to put more of the keyboard.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Damn.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That's so cool.

[Marques Brownlee]

Wow.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. That was an April Fool's Day thing.

[Adam Doud]

Before we move on, I. Do you guys know about Klein Blue?

[Marques Brownlee]

What is Klein Blue?

[Adam Doud]

There's an artist named Yves Klein who made this painting with this paint, blue paint that they mixed themselves and then they trademarked it, and now they have their own blue. And when you say it, it's like, that's stupid. Like, you can't use this color blue unless you pay this guy, Yves Klein. But then you look at the blue and you're like, damn. Yeah, dude, that's a good blue.

[Marques Brownlee]

This is also a bonus episode. If you click on the pantone color of the year, it's like, please, no more. Here's a paywall. Sign up for 15,000 colors. Like, I.

[David Pierce]

What?

[Marques Brownlee]

What, Dude?

[David Pierce]

Cloud Dancer, which is the color of the year this year. It's just like. It's beige. It's literally beige. There's a really awesome article, but it's very specific. I don't care.

[Marques Brownlee]

There's so many colors.

[David Pierce]

There's a. There's an awesome article, I think by Miya Sato on the Verge where she went to, like, the Pantone color of the year party.

[Marques Brownlee]

Wow. See, this is absolutely. That's the.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That sounds lit.

[Marques Brownlee]

Think of the person who would go,

[Andrew Liszewski]

no, no, no, no, I'd go to that.

[David Pierce]

I would normally go to that if it was anything but beige.

[Marques Brownlee]

You would normally go to the Pantone color of the year, of course.

[David Pierce]

Would you not?

[Andrew Liszewski]

That sounds pretty sweet.

[David Pierce]

That's a.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That sounds better than every Southwest party I've ever. Yeah.

[Adam Doud]

I think Pantone gets a bad rep because they're one of those companies that you know is evil.

[Marques Brownlee]

Well, that's the thing is like paywalling colors.

[Adam Doud]

I get the idea. Like, yeah, you're pay one colors, but also like, like, thank God they exist, dude. Because, like, especially like right now, for example. Right?

[Marques Brownlee]

This should be a bonus episode.

[Adam Doud]

I'm trying to. I. I got a suit jacket for a great price on ebay and I'm trying to find matching pants and I cannot find pants that are the exact same color. Like this Color matching has just been. And the whole point of Pantone is color match standardized. So if you see something on the Internet, you can just read, that's color 89627. You open up your book that you paid $10 million for and you can't

[Andrew Liszewski]

leave in the sun.

[Adam Doud]

Yeah, I can't leave in the sun. And then you find 89267. And then you go, okay, now I'm certain.

[Marques Brownlee]

And it standardizes it across different materials, different finishes. And this whole thing, we. We accidentally know way too much about this and maybe should actually be a bonus episode. But I am also fine with trolling Tim and people who are listening to this by saying they're paywalling colors.

[Ellis Hamburger]

This month's bonus episode is a Q and A link in the description to ask your questions. Please give us questions because we don't have any.

[Andrew Liszewski]

You think people are still listening?

[Ellis Hamburger]

I know. If you're still listening, then we want your questions because you are in this with us. So please.

[Adam Doud]

We have a beautiful domain. You can go to waveformsurvey.com we're not

[David Pierce]

reusing that at all. Not at all.

[Adam Doud]

We've never used that before.

[David Pierce]

We paid for it. It's worth.

[Marques Brownlee]

So to be clear, you gotta utilize it. We are going to be doing a bonus episode soon. If you are still listening this far in the podcast, you are the type of person we wanna answer the questions from.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Exactly.

[Marques Brownlee]

Just go to waveformsurvey.com ask us questions on an upcoming bonus episode. We will answer those questions.

[Adam Doud]

But you know what else has questions and answers?

[Marques Brownlee]

What is that, Ellis?

[Adam Doud]

You already know. Oh, I left the fader down.

[Marques Brownlee]

Trivia, trivia, Trivia.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Dude. So we just spoke about Anthropic discovering all these vulnerabilities in Linux specifically. It's just one of the examples they used. But Linus Torvalds, when he initially made Linux, debated naming it something else. Was it A, Freaks, a combination of free freak and the letter X to indicate that it was a Unix system? B Wenix changing the unit in UNIX to to we? C Tiger, which was the mascot at the University of Helsinki where he was at at the time. Or D torvus a combination of his last name and his first name.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Can you reread the first one?

[Marques Brownlee]

1.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Yo, your Weenix is showing Freaks F R E A X.

[Andrew Liszewski]

No, but you said. What was the reason? It's a combination of freaks, freak and

[Ellis Hamburger]

the letter X to indicate that it was a Unix like system.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I like that it's a combination of free and freak when it's just freak.

[David Pierce]

Hey, it's a tough one. What is that?

[Andrew Liszewski]

Or is it F R E E

[Ellis Hamburger]

K F R E A X O free Freak.

[David Pierce]

It's a nested acronym, bro. It's fine.

[Marques Brownlee]

Wow. I like that we have multiple choice trivia.

[David Pierce]

Thank you.

[Marques Brownlee]

It narrows my odds to 25%. Slightly above zero.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Can I say when I was looking up Artemis stuff, the number of the furthest distance they were away from the earth and I kept being like, read it four times because I assumed that was gonna be a trivia question. I'm really upset. This is the first time I was.

[Marques Brownlee]

Sorry.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Doing research and I was like, that's gonna be a trivia question. You have to.

[Marques Brownlee]

Do you remember it was a 252,252

[Andrew Liszewski]

and I think it was like 7:50 or something.

[Marques Brownlee]

That would have been a good trivia question.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Well, this is at least now we know now that we're mentioning multiple choice. The reason why I wanted specifically to do multiple choices this week is because YouTube has a feature where you Dear Listener on YouTube.

[Marques Brownlee]

Oh yeah.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Can play along and what the trivia answers are. What if it doesn't work? Then it ignore all of this.

[David Pierce]

Is it new?

[Ellis Hamburger]

As of like a month ago. And I've been meaning to bring it up for me and Ellis, but Ellis today just. Just happened to pick a multiple choice question. I was like oh yeah. I'm going to pick one too. So we could test this out.

[David Pierce]

So they can do this, but they still can't make an actual time stamp. Ui.

[Marques Brownlee]

Exactly.

[Adam Doud]

Okay, the reason I knew is. Remember that headache you woke up with a few days ago?

[Marques Brownlee]

He wishes. He doesn't.

[Adam Doud]

No. I neural linked us, bro. We broke into your house. Me and Elon. We broke into your house. We neuralink you.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah, well, Glasswing found a couple of vulnerabilities in that in Adam.

[Adam Doud]

I neuralink me too. Sorry.

[Marques Brownlee]

I.

[Adam Doud]

That's what I left at. So we're.

[Marques Brownlee]

We're.

[Adam Doud]

We're linked. Gnarly.

[Marques Brownlee]

Okay.

[Andrew Liszewski]

252-756. I was four miles.

[David Pierce]

Is that the pantone color?

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yes.

[Marques Brownlee]

We'll be right back.

[Adam Doud]

We're right. We're leaving.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It's beige, but we'll be back.

[David Pierce]

Spring Black Friday is on at the Home Depot. Save on grills and patio sets that will be sure to bring your hosting

[Marques Brownlee]

game up a notch.

[David Pierce]

Fire up your feast with health from

[Marques Brownlee]

the Home Depot and save on grills like the next grill 4 burner propane gas grill was $249.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Now in special buy for $199 or

[David Pierce]

give everyone the best seat in the

[Marques Brownlee]

yard with the Hampton bay Mayfield park

[David Pierce]

four piece conversation set for only $399. Save on grills and patio sets with low prices guaranteed during Spring Black Friday

[Marques Brownlee]

only at the Home Depot now through

[Andrew Liszewski]

April 22nd while supplies last exclusion supplies.

[Marques Brownlee]

Seehomedepot.com Pricematch for details.

[David Pierce]

K Pop Demon Hunters, Haja Boy's Breakfast Meal and Hunt Trick's Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans.

[Marques Brownlee]

What do you say to that, Rumi?

[David Pierce]

It's not a battle.

[Marques Brownlee]

So glad the Saja boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[Adam Doud]

It is an honor to share.

[David Pierce]

No, it's our honor.

[Ellis Hamburger]

It is our larger honor.

[David Pierce]

No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side a.

[Adam Doud]

Participate in McDonald's while supplies last.

[David Pierce]

This episode is brought to you by indeed.

[Marques Brownlee]

Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate.

[Andrew Liszewski]

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[Marques Brownlee]

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[Andrew Liszewski]

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[David Pierce]

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[Andrew Liszewski]

So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome back. Woop. Update from My rant last week, which, first of all, I want to say if you enjoy Whoop, and you were mad at me for saying that, I'm sorry, enjoy your Whoop band. I'm way more mad at Whoop, the company and their pricing and how insufferable their CEO is. But after I ranted about that, a bunch of fun stuff came out about Whoop, which really, people were amped that I ranted about it, despite I didn't know what was going on. But Whoop is in the process of suing a company called Bevel, who is very similar to an Apple app like Athletic Athletic that you use. Essentially an app that can take, you know, fitness and activity data from whatever activity tracker you're using and conclude it into different types of sleep data and strain data and recovery, whatever, all those different things that every single other thing uses. But Whoop just tells you that they're better at it. But some of the reasons for why they're suing them is just. Just very funny. Do you remember the Fine bros?

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, the Fine bros when they tried to.

[David Pierce]

They tried to trademark reacts.

[Marques Brownlee]

They tried to trademark reacts. Yeah, because they. Long story. But they wanted to own the concept.

[Andrew Liszewski]

They basically wanted to own the word react.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Just remember that in some of the. What I'll say here. So Bevel released a video going over a couple of the things of when Whoop sent them a cease and desist. And now this. Most recent lawsuits.

[Adam Doud]

Wow.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Total brain. We are very far into this episode and it is showing. So in their first season, they asked Bevel to disable Dark mode and change the name of Strain and Recovery as the names of metrics in their app because I guess those are things that only can do and Recovery. Strain and recovery. So the funny thing about this is Whoop only has one color background, which is dark, a dark gray. Bevel has light mode and Dark mode like every single other app that's ever been made, and Light mode is their default. But I guess Whoop doesn't like their dark mode because it looks too similar to Whoops. And they also don't like the name Strain and Recovery because I guess those are metrics that Whoop wants to own.

[Marques Brownlee]

Those are things that they've named. The compilation of those metrics might be totally different in Bevel's app, but they probably feel like they want, like, the word. Like, everyone I know who has a Whoop is like, what's your recovery score? This is my recovery score. How's your recovery? That's all they talk about is the recovery. So I can imagine an upstart trying to steal users from whoop, also using the word recovery very intentionally.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It's one of those things that when you start focusing too much on a word that has been around forever. Yeah, it's just a pretty common word that fits in there.

[David Pierce]

If you bring your computer into recovery, are they going to sue you?

[Adam Doud]

Let's quick caveat, though, and this is not me defending this, but it's a trademark and not a copyright, which means part of the nature of a trademark. If they're attempting to trademark this, they're trademarking its use in a specific method context. For example, here's a great example. I could release, I don't know, body battery. No, no. Well, I'm going to take it in another industry. I could release a line of protein supplements that I call Ellis's 1989 super protein, but I cannot sing a song in which I say the line, I would like to party like it's 1989. Because Taylor Swift has the number 1989 trademarked for musical purposes.

[David Pierce]

She does?

[Adam Doud]

Yes.

[David Pierce]

You can do that.

[Adam Doud]

Yes.

[David Pierce]

I don't like that.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That's crazy.

[Adam Doud]

So me.

[David Pierce]

Wow, that's lame. Yeah.

[Marques Brownlee]

I mean, this is. Everyone's gonna hate, like, woop, Suing them because obviously punching down looks terrible. But at the same time, there's gonna be a lot of companies and I have no idea what Bevel's doing. I should probably be more informed on it, but I. You know, there are going to be companies that are going to try to specifically steal users from whoop, probably by mimicking a lot of their features.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Here's a couple of their claims that I'll read out loud. They claim that their home screen looks too much like theirs, that both apps use rings to represent user strain and recovery scores. Near the top, those rings are colorful circular bars that increase clockwise. And there's a coaching feature in a rectangular. In a rectangle using rounded edges and a dark gray background. So rings with colorful. I mean, so like every health metric ever, Fitbit uses it, Apple uses it, Garmin uses it. All rings with colors because colors and strain, green and red are pretty common. Green, yellow, red is how most of that happens. A rectangle using rounded edges is a hilarious way of saying a button. Every button ever that's been made. They said that Bevel's app updated the home screen and it's obviously confusing and substantially similar to the Whoop app. Home screen. The only problem. So the way the home screen looks, it has three circles at the three different Scores on the top when you go into it. Bevel originally had it separated into three rings and Whoop for a long time was actually only one ring. And then updated their app after Bevel already had that and now has the three rings to the point where when they updated it, there was people commenting on it saying, like, looks like you're copying Bevel, but now they're suing them saying it looks too much the same. There's a section that says both apps use a crescent moon icon to demote sleep denote. You mean demo denote. Yeah, sorry. But to indicate sleep, I think a moon and sleep is pretty, pretty obvious with each other.

[David Pierce]

Maybe some Z's.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah. And I think my biggest thing here is, which is I'm sure in the trademark lawyer, we're world totally fine, but kind of stupid, I think is saying the design's similar and could potentially confuse people into Whoop's ui. But Whoop is a thing that only exists when you are using the product. Nobody is getting confused if you don't have a Whoop band and go into the Bevel app. Like it literally has to. Yeah. No one's like buying a Whoop down, like, you know, using it and doing the setup and then accidentally in Bevel and being like, oh, also, is that really a problem?

[David Pierce]

Like, they're not stealing users. Like, the copyright thing is usually like, are you replacing this or are you supplementing it? If you are replacing revenue that's coming to that company, then it's a problem. If you're not and it's just supplemental, it's usually not as much of a problem.

[Marques Brownlee]

Well, they're a competitor, so.

[David Pierce]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, does Bevel have like a band or anything or does it just take your existing fitness?

[Andrew Liszewski]

As far as I know, it's only an app and it takes existing.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Can it take. Take the metrics from Whoop?

[Andrew Liszewski]

Probably, but I don't know that for sure. It actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Whoop doesn't let that.

[David Pierce]

I was gonna say Whoop probably has that locked down.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I don't know how athletic and bivouble work. I just know that they can be used with different, you know, trackers. Whether it's a ring, whether it's a watch, whether it's whatever, Maybe not anything. But possibly not.

[David Pierce]

Possibly not Whoop.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I'm not sure. So, yeah, I don't know. This really just feels a lot like the fine bros trying to trademark.

[David Pierce]

Well, we know how that ended.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yeah, didn't end great. This is. I mean, this is great for Bevel. Because they. They were all over Twitter and probably got way. I've never heard of them before. And probably more people know about Bevel now.

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Andrew Liszewski]

I hope it doesn't go too deep, but I think trademarking recovery and strain seems like an absolutely insane thing and a really lame thing to do, so. Which feels pretty on point for. Whoop.

[Adam Doud]

Quick clarification. Wow. Taylor Swift does have the number 1989 trademarked. The specific trademark violation is she also has the phrase party like it's 1989. Oh, she does have the phrase the number 1989 trademarked. As well, as I found out in making sure I was correct on that. She has the phrase this Sick Beat trademark.

[Marques Brownlee]

No.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Oh, hell yeah. That's because it's the.

[Marques Brownlee]

Is that the way she says it? Because she says it's Sick Beat, I think.

[Adam Doud]

I don't know.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Trademarks. Trademarks are really so dumb.

[Adam Doud]

I do.

[Marques Brownlee]

I do understand why there is something.

[Adam Doud]

Well, and it's. It's. They're different than, like, they're different than copyrights because it's your right to do business as a thing, essentially. You know what I mean? Like, I. I don't know. I. I think it's.

[David Pierce]

I also just want to say Taylor Swift was born on December 13, 1989. And to imply that she was partying at that age is just bull. She was. At the most, she was thriving.

[Marques Brownlee]

You can't prove that as a party to some people.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Wasn't even sentient.

[David Pierce]

She was not even sentient yet. Also, she was training her AI model in the early stages on a list

[Adam Doud]

of recent trademarks she had recently gotten. Female rage Colon the Musical, which I don't even know what that's about, but comment down below if you do know what that's about. But you know what I do know

[Marques Brownlee]

lots about what is that?

[David Pierce]

The answers to the trivia questions that

[Adam Doud]

you wrote with the fader up this time.

[Marques Brownlee]

Time. Nice. I like that.

[David Pierce]

I like that.

[Adam Doud]

Waveform episode 345. Trivia question number one. That was me pretending to be Jason Derulo.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Sure. That's a sick. Username. Jace.JSON derulo.

[David Pierce]

I think someone already has that.

[Andrew Liszewski]

That has to be a real thing, right?

[David Pierce]

Yeah.

[Adam Doud]

Yeah, that's pretty good.

[Andrew Liszewski]

We get sued.

[Adam Doud]

Where does Anthropic's project Glasswing get its name? A, a, an experimental F1 rear wing design from the Ground Effect era. B, a Central American butterfly with transparent wings. C, a type of parachute used by first responders to jump into dense forest canopies. Or D It's an acronym. General Layer Analysis. Excuse me? General Layer Analysis. Screening with integrated neural GPTs.

[Andrew Liszewski]

The whole time I. You were saying Glasswing. I just kept thinking of DuckTales. For some reason. That's all I could think of. Don't know. Why is there a dark wing? Darkwing Duck. Okay, that's what I was thinking of.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Wow. What a reference.

[Adam Doud]

Wow.

[Andrew Liszewski]

We all said the same thing.

[Ellis Hamburger]

What'd you guys say?

[Marques Brownlee]

All three of us said butterfly.

[Andrew Liszewski]

David drew a tooth for some reason.

[Adam Doud]

Guys, I like that. That means I'm getting worse.

[David Pierce]

You are claiming to be an artist because you're all correct. On the blog post, they have a picture of a butterfly. I didn't go to it during the

[Adam Doud]

podcast, but I know I did when

[David Pierce]

I was reading it, but.

[Adam Doud]

Am I losing my sauce?

[David Pierce]

No. Thank God, Alice.

[Adam Doud]

I used to deliver four bangers.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, but we never get.

[Marques Brownlee]

We're still bangers.

[David Pierce]

We never get points on Anthronomics.

[Adam Doud]

Well, all three of you got points, so it's as if none of you got points. Yeah, so I still fail.

[David Pierce]

That's true.

[Adam Doud]

It's called Glasswing from the butterfly. Because also all. None of those other three things are real. I made them all up.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Adam Doud]

The metaphor can be. This is from Anthropic's actual website. In a. In a what? One up here. And what does the one bean down there? A footnote. The metaphor can be applied in two ways. The butterfly's transparent wings let it hide in plain sight, much like the vulnerabilities discussed. Discussed in this post. Semicolon. They also allow it to evade harm, like the transparency we're advocating for in our approach.

[Marques Brownlee]

Transparency. Wow. Wow.

[Ellis Hamburger]

They backroom their way into that or what?

[David Pierce]

They probably asked.

[Marques Brownlee]

Somebody got a raise for coming up with that line.

[David Pierce]

Claude got a raise. What should we name this Claude?

[Ellis Hamburger]

All right, quick update on the score after that. Correct question.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yes.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Marquez with 21. Andrew with 22. David in the lead with 25.

[Andrew Liszewski]

22.

[David Pierce]

But I'm not around.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's trademark.

[David Pierce]

That's trademark you're going to get.

[Marques Brownlee]

Careful. Careful.

[Ellis Hamburger]

All right. When he initially made Linux, Linus Torvalds debated naming it something else. Was it A, Freaks, B, Wenix, C, Tiger, or D, Torvis?

[Adam Doud]

You know what's crazy? He. There's one thing that Adam left off there which he was also considering, which was Linus Tech Tips.

[Ellis Hamburger]

He was way early.

[Marques Brownlee]

I don't know.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Flip him and read. What do we got?

[David Pierce]

Oh, wow, wow, wow.

[Ellis Hamburger]

You guys are locked in today.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, we're locked in. We Are neural linked.

[Marques Brownlee]

Yeah, all of us said D. Torvalds.

[Ellis Hamburger]

Nope.

[Marques Brownlee]

Was it B?

[Ellis Hamburger]

It was not B. Oh, good. It was also not C. It was A. Freaks.

[Marques Brownlee]

No way.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Yep.

[Marques Brownlee]

Well, I'm glad he didn't do that.

[Andrew Liszewski]

F, R, E, A, X. Yes.

[Marques Brownlee]

That is simply a bad acronym.

[Adam Doud]

Is that a reference to phone freaking or is that just like you're a freak?

[Marques Brownlee]

What's phone freaking?

[Adam Doud]

Really fast, 30 second definition phone. Old analog, like landline phone dialers actually worked by tones. Like you have a thing. Like each button creates a tone, and then that tone, you know, does a program on the other side of the thing. So someone realized you could hack into phones by generating tones, and that was called freak.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, but freak phone freaking was P, H, R, E, A, K, I, N, G. Yeah.

[Adam Doud]

Okay, so this was not that.

[Andrew Liszewski]

It was the cool version.

[David Pierce]

Yeah, it was Taylor's version.

[Adam Doud]

No, that's also true.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Careful, David.

[David Pierce]

Careful.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Lawsuit. Lawsuit.

[Marques Brownlee]

And with that, the podcast was finally over again. If you have questions for us, the comment section is always open. But if you made it this far, you can of course go to waveformsurvey.com and ask us whatever you want, because we're going to do a bonus episode where we actually answer those questions. So take your time. Come up with the best questions you possibly can. Leave your whatever questions down below, but come up with the best questions for waveformsurvey.com and they'll be answered on a bonus episode. Other than that, thanks for watching. Hopefully the astronauts touch down safely in the ocean.

[Adam Doud]

Wait, wait. That's waveform with vowels, not without vowels. That's wave. W, A, V, E, F, O, R,

[Marques Brownlee]

M. Yes, good clarification. Hopefully now they've found it. I don't know whatever freaky website you went to before, but now they found the correct survey website. All right, catch you next week. Peace.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Waveformers is produced by Adam Alina and Ellis river and partner with Vox Media Podcast Network. And interaction was created by Van Sil.

[David Pierce]

You do that early, Adam Speedrun. Are you looking at the look of glass?

[Marques Brownlee]

No, I'm looking at cosmic latte, which is the average. It is. See, it is. You have to read this very carefully. It describes the average color of the galaxy of the universe as perceived by a typical human observer, which to me says that the average is not actually in the visible wavelength, typically. Hey, marketers, listen up. Before this, there was this.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Our voice.

[Adam Doud]

It's how we shared knowledge, built communities.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Well, guess what? Voice is back.

[Marques Brownlee]

That's why Spotify Advertising has published a new report, the SoundOn era because audio

[David Pierce]

moves culture forward, and if your brand

[Adam Doud]

wants to be heard, you need a sound on Strategy.

[Andrew Liszewski]

Go to ads.Spotify.com to download the sound

[Adam Doud]

on ERA and turn up the volume on your business.