618. Hold Fast: Finding Clarity + Measuring Impact in a Changing World - Ori Carmel

Summary

We Are For Good Podcast Episode 618: "Hold Fast: Finding Clarity + Measuring Impact in a Changing World" featuring Ori Carmel

Release Date: May 5, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 618 of the We Are For Good Podcast, hosts Jon McCoy, CFRE, and Becky Endicott, CFRE, engage in a profound conversation with Ori Carmel, founder and CEO of Sewin, an international strategy consultancy. The episode delves into the intricate challenges nonprofits face today, specifically focusing on finding clarity and effectively measuring impact amidst a rapidly changing world.

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Guest Introduction: Ori Carmel

Becky warmly introduces Ori Carmel, praising his extensive experience and innovative approach within the nonprofit sector. She remarks, “Ori is probably the top 10 brightest person that's ever been on this podcast” (03:10). Ori's diverse background spans government, academia, social enterprises, and major corporations like American Express and Twitter, underscoring his versatile expertise.

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The Challenge of Impact Measurement

The conversation kicks off with the pressing issue of impact measurement. John remarks, “We're in a world obsessed with vanity metrics, scale speed. How do we cut through that and really find how we can hold fast to creating meaningful impact?” (00:46).

Ori emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between vanity metrics and true impact. He points out that many organizations fail to measure whether their activities genuinely contribute to their mission, often getting sidetracked by superficial indicators like mailing list sizes or event attendance.

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Decision-Making Framework: Thinking Fast and Slow

Ori introduces the concept from Daniel Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow, explaining the two systems of decision-making:

• System One (Fast Thinking): Governs 90% of our decisions through intuition and past experiences. While efficient, it is prone to biases and flawed judgments. For example, encountering a bear on a trail triggers an immediate "flight" response without deliberate analysis (08:26).

• System Two (Slow Thinking): Engages in deliberate, analytical thinking, necessary for complex and high-stakes decisions. However, it is highly tasking and inefficient for routine choices. Ori illustrates this by asking John to calculate “77 times 41,” highlighting the rarity and difficulty of such tasks (09:51).

Ori advises nonprofits to recognize when to employ System Two, especially in unprecedented or complex situations, urging leaders to slow down, gather more information, and consult with others to make informed decisions (12:34).

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Impact Measurement Framework

Ori outlines an eight-step Impact Measurement Framework designed to help organizations align their activities with their mission:

1. Understand Your Current State: Assess where the organization stands today versus where it aims to be.
2. Establish SMART Goals: Define Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant, and Timely goals that align with the mission.
3. Attach Metrics: Determine how to measure these goals, distinguishing between activity metrics and impact metrics.
4. Bring in Data: Collect both internal and external data to evaluate performance against metrics.
5. Draw Insights: Analyze data to identify trends, gaps, and opportunities.
6. Integrate into Reporting: Use insights for organizational reporting to enhance operational excellence.
7. Drive Adoption: Ensure the team understands and implements the framework into strategic and tactical activities.
8. Optimize: Create a feedback loop to continually refine and improve processes based on data and insights (26:57).

Ori encourages organizations to download the framework from Sewin’s website and emphasizes its intuitive nature, making it accessible for nonprofits to implement effectively.

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Hosts' Reflections and Challenges

The hosts candidly discuss their own struggles in implementing Ori’s framework:

• Becky: “Crystallizing the audience for me was way harder than I thought it was gonna be” (33:02).

• John: “Moving away from this mentality of tracking activities” and “challenged us to think in a very tangible way” (33:02).

They reflect on the difficulty of balancing idealism with practical necessities, such as maintaining operational stability while striving for long-term impact.

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Navigating Organizational Complexity

Ori addresses the multifaceted challenges nonprofits face today, including:

• Political and Economic Uncertainty: Ongoing global tensions and economic fluctuations complicate strategic planning.

• Technological Disruption: Rapid advancements, particularly in AI, require organizations to adapt swiftly.

• Mental Health Crisis: Increasing rates of depression and isolation among individuals add another layer of complexity (16:00).

He advises organizations to focus on high-stakes, complex decisions by activating System Two thinking, ensuring they remain aligned with their true north despite external turbulences.

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Balancing Passion and Practicality

In response to burnout and the temptation to pursue quick wins, Ori provides actionable advice:

• Balance Long-Term Impact with Operational Metrics: Ensuring that daily activities are aligned with strategic goals to maintain sustainability.

• Storytelling and Transparency: Communicating progress and challenges openly with stakeholders to build empathy and support (21:58).

Ori underscores the importance of maintaining equilibrium between pursuing meaningful impact and managing the organization's operational needs.

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Conclusion and Resources

As the episode wraps up, Ori recommends Allison Taylor’s book Higher Ground, which explores corporate citizenship and the overlap between the private and social impact sectors. He emphasizes the potential for cross-sector learning and adopting best practices from both realms (36:10).

Ori also directs listeners to Sewin’s website for additional resources, including the Impact Measurement Framework, and encourages organizations to reach out for support in navigating complex challenges.

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Final Thoughts

Becky expresses immense gratitude for Ori’s insights, highlighting the transformative impact of his framework on We Are For Good. John echoes this sentiment, appreciating Ori’s ability to cut through the noise and provide actionable strategies.

Ori concludes by reiterating the importance of meaningful social impact and offering his support to organizations striving to make a difference.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ori Carmel (03:10): “It's not just about learning. It's about executing, figuring out the concrete next steps, the right next steps.”

• John (00:46): “We're in a world obsessed with vanity metrics, scale speed. How do we cut through that and really find how we can hold fast to creating meaningful impact?”

• Ori Carmel (12:34): “One of the smartest things that people can do is understand and recognize when is system two needed.”

• Becky (21:58): “what would you say to them to keep them inspired on that long road?”

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Resources Mentioned:

• Impact Measurement Framework: Available for download on Sewin’s website (Sewin Co).

• Book Recommendation: Higher Ground by Allison Taylor.

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This episode offers invaluable insights for nonprofit professionals seeking to enhance their impact measurement and navigate the complexities of today’s world. By implementing Ori Carmel’s frameworks and embracing a balanced approach to decision-making, organizations can achieve sustainable and meaningful change.

Transcript

[John]

Hey, I'm John.

[Becky]

And I'm Becky.

[John]

And this is the We Are for Good podcast.

[Becky]

Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more, and be more for the causes that improve our world.

[John]

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an Impact uprising.

[Becky]

So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers, and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

[John]

So let's get started. Becky, you what?

[Becky]

You know, I know that one of my best friends, heroes, is in the house, and I adore him. And I hope everybody's buckled up to learn about impact measurement today.

[John]

I know. I'm so glad that we can lean into this moment. We've. We kicked off the idea, the concept of hold Fast with our community at Impact up, but to take these conversations into longer form, I mean, you could follow the chat and just the feel of the room when Orey spoke. I feel like the world stood still for us. Split second, because, I mean, we're in a world obsessed with vanity metrics, scale speed. How do we cut through that and really find how we can hold fast to creating meaningful impact? That actually is moving the needle that we're not getting to the end of this year. That's going to be a tough year, right? We're already on the heels of this. How do we get to the end and be like, man, the things we did actually did matter, actually move the needle of something that's vital in your community. And that's what this is about. It's not just about learning. It's about executing, figuring out the concrete next steps, the right next steps. And there's nobody better to talk to us about that than our dear friend Ori Carmel. Oh, you guys, I'm telling you, we're not done.

[Becky]

Like, just. Just sit back a little bit. Put your feet up, because we need to talk about why we love Ori Carmel. I mean it. It would not be an overstatement to say that Ori is probably top 10 brightest person that's ever been on this podcast, ever. And for more than 20 years, he has been at, like, the epicenter of building, solving, and collaborating in these brill and evolved in innovative ways that when we see it, we're like, yes, nonprofit leaders, Go. Go and do exactly what Orey says. Like, think in this way, reframe in this way. And we just love the way that you have seen the world through the lens of so many different industries and organizations, Orey, including government, academia, nonprofits, social enterprise, and like really big companies and brands that we all know and love like hello, American Express, Twitter, just so many others. But Orey is the founder and CEO of Sewin, which is an international strategy consultancy focused on the intersection of economic value and utilitarian good. And if that doesn't sum up who Ori is and what he's about better than anything else, I can just tell you he's so kind, he's so irreverent, hilarious. And he is a straight shooter and he is coming into this house to shoot straight with us today. Orie, welcome back to the podcast and probably the fastest turnaround that we've ever had a guest come back on the podcast.

[Ori Carmel]

Jeez, guys, I not sure what to say. I feel embarrassed and half of those things aren't true and nevertheless the checks are in the mail. So appreciated and thank you for having me again. It's, it's always a joy.

[Becky]

We are just so overjoyed that you're here and you brought down the house. John mentioned this at Impact up and I, I just think that you're seeing things and speaking things that are of the now that people need to hear, need to get centered on you, tell the truth. And that's something I really value and I think all of us particularly value right now. And I just want to ask you just right out of the gate, like when everything feels so uncertain, whether that's, you know, funding or data or what are our timelines. I just talked to a whole bunch of non profits who said we can't even finalize a budget because we don't know where to project. I want to know, Orey, what anchors you? What are the questions that you're returning.

[Ori Carmel]

To from a personal perspective or a professional perspective?

[John]

Yes, we love them.

[Ori Carmel]

Yes. Yes to both. Yes, from a professional perspective. Three questions. Who's the audience? Like, who are you trying to help? Who's getting impacted by the work that you're doing? What matters to them, to those communities and individuals? And where can you actually make a difference? If you can't answer those three things, you've lost your true north or you've never had in the past, or you need to slow down and figure out your true north. From a personal perspective, it's not that different. But it all comes back to me personally, to Victor Frankl's man's search for meaning. As long as you have a why you can a person can endure almost any how. So what's your why at an individual level? What is your why? Why are you doing the things that you're doing? What is the reason that you wake up for in the morning and invest somewhere between 8 to 12 hours working on the things that you're working? And at the end of the day, for me, that the answer to that personal one is my family, my kids, my wife, my closest friends.

[John]

That's my why to have Ori's Rolodex of quotes from Moby Dick, which is what I feel like you casually were bringing up the other day. Oh, God, this moment. I'm like, what a grounding question to come back to when it does feel like everything is changing. And I feel like you've been doing this for us personally too, on the personal and the business side of walking us through what is we are for good? How do we show up in the world that is today? What is our audience? What is our true, like, gap that we're trying to fill? And you have been giving us so much clarity. And we're going to be sharing more about this on the podcast as we.

[Becky]

Go through this journey. You're part of amazing and hard.

[John]

Oh, it's been a lot harder.

[Becky]

Yeah, it like super hard.

[John]

But it's easier when you've got somebody like yourself, my friend, that will say the hard thing and not just placate on the positives, but to say, no, this is, it's meaningful to push things around that are difficult to say. So we can really get to a better result. And I want to kick it to you specifically about organizations that are trying to figure out the visioning piece.

[Ori Carmel]

Yeah.

[John]

You know. Cause I feel like we spent a lot of time, surprisingly, on this. I thought I was clear on my vision until we started talking. I'm like, oh, maybe I didn't know what our vision was. You know, where do you point a leader today to get started on that journey?

[Ori Carmel]

Well, so first, right off the bat, I'm actually intuitively not very good at this. And the reason is the things that drive me are like problem solving and curiosity. So I do have a tendency to actually look at multiple challenges and kind of not get distracted, but get interested by a lot of different things. And I have to constantly, and have had to throughout my career, train myself to get better at that. And I'm still not great at it. So what I try and do is actually surround myself with people who are much, much better at that than I am. Right. So, for example, like Sophie Blonto our chief strategy officer. She's amazing at that. She's like, I. We start a meeting or conversation or coffee chat, and I'm like shooting in five different directions. She's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down. What are the two things that we're actually talking about? So she constantly forces me. Yeah, right. Like we all need that energy in our life. It's really hard. Our attention spans are super short. It's really easy to get distracted. We're all bombarded. So confession. I'm actually pretty crap at that.

[John]

With that said, fooled us.

[Ori Carmel]

Yeah.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Ori Carmel]

With that said. Well, it's always easier when you're doing it for somebody else. Right. Or when you're holding somebody else's hand through the process. What I try to do is recognize that, you know the classic cliches, you can't be all things for all people. You know, you can't satisfy everybody. If you try to appease everybody, you end up appeasing nobody. Those are all true. They're all about focus. Right. I try to think a lot about thinking fast and slow. Do you? Are you familiar with thinking?

[Becky]

Okay, you brought this up at impact up. I want you to break this down because I think this book is fascinating.

[Ori Carmel]

Yeah. So like one of the best books ever. Ever, ever, ever. Really hard book, but superbly influential in almost every aspect of life. It talks about how people and organizations basically to drill down a like 700 page book that, you know, won the Nobel prize for its authors. It talks about two systems which we use to make decisions. The first One is system one. It governs like 90% of our decisions. Right. It's highly effective, it's highly efficient. Right. It relies on our past experiences and quick judgments. And basically, if we didn't have system one, we couldn't function. We would pause and stop and analyze every single decision that we make, you know, to ad nauseam. And that's not effective. Right. If you're walking down the street and you see a bear, you're not going to start thinking about, you know, what is this a brown bear? Is this a black bear? What is their relationship with their mother? Is it angry at me? No, it's a bear. You run around and, you know, you turn around and run. Right.

[John]

Bear spray for me. I'm on the trails a lot.

[Becky]

Yeah, get out your bear spray. Cuddle. So, yes, we are not listening to our fight or flight.

[Ori Carmel]

Well, we'll get to fight or flight later.

[Becky]

I know we will. This is gonna be good.

[Ori Carmel]

So that governs like 90% of our decisions. Here's the problem. It's deeply, deeply flawed. It incorporates all the heuristics and all the superstitions and all the misjudgments and all the biases that we carry with us every day. And then there's System two. System two is highly inefficient. It's very, very tasking. So here's an example of system two. John, what's 77 times 41?

[John]

Oh gosh, a lot.

[Ori Carmel]

Give it a try, give it a try. Okay, cool.

[John]

28 carry over the one I don't know. Yeah, exactly.

[Ori Carmel]

John, what's three times three?

[John]

Nine.

[Ori Carmel]

Okay. You didn't actually do that calculation in your head. You just intuitively know that three times three equals nine because you've done it so many times, right? You do three times three quite a bit in your life. But whatever. It was 71 times 40 something that I asked you earlier, that's very rare occurrence, right. You don't run into that calculation too often. So that's where system two takes over. And it's a lot more tasking. You saw three times three, you were able to answer in two seconds, maybe one, the other one not so much because it's a lot more tasking. Your brain starts activating calculations, etc, etc. Here's the thing, it's a lot more accurate, it brings about much better results, but it's significantly more tasking. It's highly inefficient. So we reserve it to 10% of our activities. We are really, really bad at intentionally applying system to when the stakes are high, when the questions are really, really complicated and when the answer is really, really not obvious. And I think that going back to your question around, you know, how do we make these types of decisions and what would be my approach? I think one of the smartest things that people can do is understand and recognize when is system two needed. Yeah, right. And actually do the counter intuitive thing which is slow down, gather more information, think through things, consult with others, get a wider view of the problem. Because the stakes are higher. Right. Because the effort that it will take to design whatever kind of solution you're going to come up with is significantly higher. So recognizing that difference to me is super, super important.

[Becky]

Hey friends. It takes a lot to power a movement as mighty as the Impact Uprising. And we couldn't do it without we are for good's value aligned partners.

[John]

Yeah, you're right. Our partners make it possible for us to keep showing up with free education tools, series summits and resources because they believe like we do that investing in people and community creates real, lasting change.

[Becky]

So if you're looking for a trusted partner to help you find a new tech solution, a CRM, maybe a new direct mail strategist, or you're even looking for an entirely new brand partner, start here. We've curated a direct line for your VIP access to these groups. Just by saying you're with we are for good.

[John]

Yeah. Big gratitude to our ecosystem partners at Donordoch, Feather, RKD Group and Whiteboard. They're not just partners, they're walking alongside us to build something better and more inclusive.

[Becky]

Head to weareforgood.com Rex to explore our go to tools and humans doing this great work. Lock arms for impact and put more fuel back into this community. That's weareforgood.com RECS now back to the show. Okay, I love this entire antithetical concept. I'm sorry, I'm saying it's antithetical because I don't think it's within our wiring. In the non, non profit space, when there is a crisis or uncertainty, we definitely do not take the posture of let's slow down. I think we just impulsively jump in and. And I wonder if you could kind of walk us through an example. Even in this thinking fast and slow and even pulling into this second way of making decisions for nonprofits. Like, what would you suggest to let's, you know, think about as maybe a small nonprofit, someone who works in a small nonprofit right now and is trying to navigate the world. What would be a way that they could really employ this thinking today?

[Ori Carmel]

Well, I think it depends on the situation. Right. If it's a situation that they're familiar with and that's relatively obvious, or things that they have the muscle memory to do as an organization or as people. Right. Then wherever possible and wherever the risk is not too high, sure. Apply System 1, Lean, or whatever version of System 1 exists in your organization. As far as your modus operandi, what does that look like? Rely on past experience. So if you've given to this type of an organization and you've done so every year, and this year they're presenting you with the opportunity to give to another year of effort and activities that they are doing, and pretty much all other components of that decision remain the same, then just streamline through that decision. Right. If you're running into a problem and you need to do hiring, right. And you have really, really good hiring sources and you have a pretty good process of interviewing and identifying talent and onboarding them, great Leverage that, streamline whatever you can. But when you're. I think that where we fail is in recognizing not everybody, not all the time, but broadly speaking, where we fail is in recognizing that things are a little bit more complicated or different.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Ori Carmel]

Or where the reality is a little bit more complex than anything that we've encountered before. And unfortunately, the time that we are in right now presents a lot of that. I mean, the obvious view is the political view. Right. But it's not just the political view. From an economic perspective, much more. There's so much uncertainty around us, and that's. That's been going on for five years. Right. The economic uncertainties have been going on for a while, well before the current administration. From a geopolitical perspective, we got wars and turbulence of relationship between countries, not mentioning any names, but that's in the background. Technology and AI, incredible disruption happening there. Right. Mental health crisis. We are raising a generation of individuals that is more depressed, more isolated than ever before. Right. So all these things are coming into play together. They're all kind of related. And the situation is complex and the stakes are high. So going back to your question, Becky, organizations should recognize what are the big decisions that are in front of them and actually slow down, make fewer, do fewer things, focus on the things that they can do really, really well. That's what I've been spending a lot of time thinking about over the past couple of weeks since our last conversation.

[John]

I mean, I think it connects into one of the values that we set up we are for good around in the early days, which is play the long game, which is choosing the longer, slower path against when the odds feel like, man, you got to keep moving, we got to keep making decisions. We gotta, like, put. Push this next thing out. Where's a moment that you would take us back to when you have had to choose the slower path instead of just jumping to probably what could have been easier metrics or easier success for a short win. Can you think of a time? Just because I feel like that's the place we're in, you know, right now.

[Ori Carmel]

Yeah. I mean, I think that happens to all of us every day. Right. As you described, like our intuitive or whatever you want to call it, programmed reactions to crisis. Four things that we do, right. We know two of them. Right. It's fight or flight, but there's also freeze, which means do nothing, and fawn, which means basically grovel. Right. So those are our four natural reactions. But all of those are just, well, two things. One, they're pretty instinctive reactions. They're not thought driven, they're not insight driven. And two, they serve survival at the moment. They're not long term solutions. Right? So I think, you know, if I, if I think about those types of things, we all meet those opportunities to choose whether to react in that natural instinct way with one of those four Fs, or to pause and slow down and activate our system too. As we talked about for, for us at. So in most recent, over the past like six months, it's been about investment. Like we've always been independent, right? Like we've always, we've never had any investors. We've never been. We don't have a board. I don't have a board over my head. I don't have investors to answer to. We can choose which projects we want to take on. And that's been really, really core to everything that we do. Because we want to stay pragmatic idealists, we want to stay honest to the work. We don't want to get dragged into doing billable hours and things like that because we have to satisfy somebody, somebody else's bottom line for you. Or we could take a $3 million investment and double the size of the team tomorrow. It's been tempting to do that, especially at the end of the year, right, when you want to give everybody raises and you want to do all these awesome things and you want to have more money for activities and sponsorships and stuff like that. But the compromises that it would entail for us haven't been worth it. So I'm sure you guys have had similar situations where you're like, oh, we could. Yeah, we do whatever your Green Day version of sellout is. Wow, I just dated myself to the 90s.

[Becky]

I totally understood what you're landing. That bites me as well.

[Ori Carmel]

I knew you would. Becky, John and Jules, not so much.

[John]

But I've read about it in history books. Very similar. A bit. Yeah.

[Ori Carmel]

But yeah, like, you know, that's, that's a choice. Those opportunities come about all the time and sometimes it's a really shitty choice.

[Becky]

And I want to recognize for those of us who are all. And I say those of us like, and I'm gesturing broadly to the overall universe, like those of us who are tired, those of us who are burnt out, those of us who are scared, those of us who are. Insert whatever the adjective is. It is really tempting and easy to want to grab onto those quick wins. And I wonder about a piece of advice that you would give to someone who is really trying to hold fast to that mission when things feel very chaotic, you know, but maybe they don't feel like the metrics are matching the effort yet. Like, what would you say to them to keep them inspired on that long road?

[Ori Carmel]

So before I answer that, I think it's also super important to recognize that, you know, it's, it kind of reminds me of. Do you know Scott Galloway?

[Becky]

Yes.

[Ori Carmel]

He teaches at, at NYU and he talks a lot about mental health and he's marketing and economics and he's, he always, he has this line where he says people who tell you to follow your passions are full of shit.

[John]

Yeah, I've read Because.

[Ori Carmel]

Right. Like, because they're people who've already made it ton of money doing something else and now they have enough money to go chase their passions. Right. But 99.9% of people don't have the luxury of just pursuing their passions. Right. It's got to be a balance. It's got to be a balance between the things that matter, the things that are important and the things that can pay the rent. So I, I also think that, you know, it's super important, especially in the non profit space, to recognize the balance that leaders and executives have to strike between, you know, maintaining the organizational true north, keeping everybod aligned on why we wake up while at the same time paying rent, you know, paying salaries. Right. It's really, really hard. Hey, we can have all the meaning and passion in the world, but if we can't pay people's salaries at the end of the or, you know, if we can't keep the lights on, then then we can't keep the lights on. Right? So it's got to be a balance. And I think when things get really tough for me, what I try and remember is to balance between what are the metrics and goals that I want to accomplish or that the organization or that the project wants to accomplish in the long term in terms of the impact that we want to make on people's lives, Right. Or the change that we want to see in a particular community and balance that with the operational, what I would call activity metrics, which are indicators that I'm on the right path to get there to one, know that I'm on the right path, two, optimize when I'm leaning five degrees to the left or five degrees to the right, and three, inform my stakeholders that I'm on the right path. So to buy myself that Runway right. With my stakeholders, whether that's the board, whether that's investors, whether that's the funders, whether that's the community. So to balance, right? To balance between the long term impact metrics that are going to tell me, am I getting to that flag on the top of the hill that's three miles away while also identifying the activity metrics that are going to tell me, am I actually taking the most efficient path to get to that flag that's three miles on the hill that's three miles away?

[John]

Yeah, I feel like it's, it comes back to like, how do we storytell it? I mean, of course we're like storytellers by trade, but like how do we talk about it? How do we talk about where we're at in this moment, what the data is saying, what the activities are saying, what all these pieces. Because if we can bring people along for the journey, there's so much more empathy, understanding all the things that follow. But if we're just silent, we can't have that. So feels so important.

[Ori Carmel]

Okay, but what I find is, I mean, and you guys tell me, what do you think? But what I find is so many organizations do neither, right? They stick to these like insignificant vanity. You call them vanity metrics, right?

[John]

Yeah.

[Ori Carmel]

Which don't answer whether we are. The question of whether we are reaching our, you know, whether we are actually creating impact. Don't answer the question of whether we are on the right path to get there. They're just things like, you know, how many convenings we talked about this last time, how many convenings we've had or how many people are on our mailing list or you know, how many people showed up to an event that we're doing. And that's great, those things are great, but they are not impact, Right? And yeah, they're not. Sometimes they're not even outputs or outcomes. I was at a conference just now that show remained nameless and everybody was talking about outputs and outcomes and there was very little conversation about impact. And I'm like, well, you need all of those things. Like the outputs are cute, the outcomes are nicer if they don't lead to impact. What are we doing?

[John]

Yeah, okay.

[Becky]

The impact is the why. Like we're going back to the why again. So why would we not have metrics that measure what we value? I feel like we talk about this all the time, so this is such good food for thought. Orey, you're making my brain spin.

[John]

And you know, we really want to be an activating community. We believe we are an activating community by how we show up and lean into these moments and not just retreat. I wonder if you'd take our listeners and us into some type of reflection activity. In light of this combo, what are some questions or what is something that we could sit with following today that we're like, okay, how do I really turn this into action? You know, how do I take these ideas that we're pushing around and ask ourselves some good questions leaving today.

[Ori Carmel]

So I think that there's a pretty good framework that we use internally at Sowen that helps you kind of understand whether the activities that you are doing, whether you're connecting between, between the things that you are doing and spending your time on as an organization and the impact that you want to in the world. And you can download the framework on our website. It's called the Impact Measurement framework, but it runs through basically eight steps. It's not that complicated, by the way. It's pretty intuitive. The first thing that you need to do is understand your current state. Where are you today? Where do you want to get to? And are there gaps between the two? Right. So just get a good understanding of where your organization is today. And then from there you can start establishing smart goals. Smart being the acronym, like specific, measurable, attainable, relevant and timely. If you can do that, then you have tied between the things that you are doing and the reason that you wake up for in the morning. Right? So that's kind of steps one and two. And then you can attach metrics to those things. Right? How are you going to measure those things? And that's where activity metrics and impact metrics come into play. Okay, so now we have, you know, an understanding of who we are as an organization. We have clear goals and objectives that represent the things that we're doing, and we have ways of measuring them. Well, we need to start bringing in the data to understand whether the things that we are doing are actually contributing to the activity and impact metrics that we want to see. Once you bring in that data, you can start drawing insights. That data should come in from internal data based on the activities that you're doing. It can come in from external data. But once you bring that into a centralized place, you can start understanding with whether there are specific trends, whether you have some gaps, whether you have some opportunities and integrate that into your organizational reporting to improve operational excellence. You're reporting to stakeholders all those things and allow you to do the seventh stage, which is drive adoption. Right. Having those insights, having those learnings, having better tools and better systems and better processes is great. But unless you've taught your team how to use it, unless you've taught the organization how to actually implement this into both strategic and tactical, both long term and day to day activities. You've done nothing, right. So integrating that into adoption and then creating that feedback loop of optimization. So really simple framework, right? Like understand who you are, what do you want to do, what are the things that you're actually doing? How are you going to track whether the things that you're doing are actually answering the things that you want to do in the results that you want to see. Bring that information, integrate it into your reporting, integrated into your activities and continually optimize. Super, super intuitive, easy, you know, doesn't, doesn't break the, the organizational mind frame. The body won't reject the organ. It's, it's pretty intuitive stuff. So we try to use that as a good starting point for, for a lot organizations. And I would highly recommend going through that exercise and thinking about where do you have gaps, where are you really good? Where are some pieces that you're missing? Whether it's in data, whether it's in processes, whether it's in internal training and then starting to work on improving those areas.

[Becky]

I really just feel like this is a game changing framework and we've dropped this into the show notes. If you were driving and you need to come back and you couldn't take notes for that. But friends, like, if you could do this, the practice of it would change your habits. But I would also say the story of what you uncover when you start doing this practice is a story that your community, your board, your staff, like, this is something that is information that we can all rally around and have influence on and it can influence every part of how we move. So we've dropped that into the show notes. Thank you for sharing that, Ori. I can tell you it has been gamechanging for we are for good to go through this process. And even when we felt like we knew who we were, there are just things that you're not orienting your brain around in terms of your time and your talent and where you're putting your focus. So thank you for this, Ori. And you've been on the podcast long enough to know how we bring.

[Ori Carmel]

Hold on, hold on, hold on. I have a question on that. I have a question. I'm gonna flip the script on you.

[Becky]

Oh God.

[Ori Carmel]

What's been the hardest, I mean, and I know we're like, like going through that process. Yeah, what's been the hardest one for you guys of like all those steps that I described? Where is there anywhere where you were like Oh, I thought we were really good at that, but holy crap, we really needed to do some work here.

[Becky]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. You want me to go first, John?

[John]

Sure. I mean, at every step I feel like, oh, he's talking, he's calling us out live on the podcast, you know, So I think it's very applicable for me.

[Becky]

Crystallizing the audience for me was way harder than I thought it was gonna be because I think as a marketer, you just think in terms of avatars and, oh, people fall into these sort of general buckets. But the reality is, is people who come into this space are nuanced in a lot of different ways. And crystallizing the who has been as hard for me to get my arms around who we're talking to than anything else. What about you, John?

[John]

I think a couple different places stick out to me. One is moving away from this mentality of like, tracking activities, you know, Like, I think I'm just hardwired to, like, that's the things we talk about. If you think of the top stats, when someone asks what's happening with we are for Good, it goes down to those things. Not actually impactful things, but the way things that we can readily track. So that's held me up. But the other piece was shockingly like the Vision. I think we're such ridiculous idealists that we're like, we want to change the world, we want to impact uprising. And it's like Ori kept saying, but what does that mean? You know? And I think, I love that I'm quoting you to you. But it challenged us to think in like a very tangible way. What is our gift? What are we uniquely set up to do? We have the community around us to do it and not feel like we have to do everything. And we weren't trying to do everything. But I think the clarity that we really shouldn't do everything is it really has been eye opening to me and realizes why we feel a little burnt out, you know, sometimes and just overwhelmed with too much.

[Ori Carmel]

Yeah. So what I would say is like, literally every single person and every single organization goes through this. The good news is it's a beautiful, really super healthy process to go through.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Ori Carmel]

The bad news is you're gonna go, you're gonna have to go through it again every couple years. Right. Because we have a tendency to, like, pick up more things along the way. And that's okay. That's just the natural. Yeah, exactly. And the reality around us morphs. Right. So we gotta activate our system too. Every two, three, four, years and rethink. Right. Or at the very least, just gut check. Right. So that's bad news. You're gonna have to go through this again in.

[Becky]

I hope so, because it means we're evolving, like, all the time. And I hope all of you understand and embrace the process of evolution is where we shine the most when we keep learning and getting better every day. So I really like, thank you for putting us on the spot.

[Ori Carmel]

Yeah. And you've been amazing partners at going through that. You've been so thoughtful and open and I gotta say, like, the psychological resistance that we see with a lot of organizations that we have, it's incredibly challenging.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Ori Carmel]

Oh, my God. Like, when you get into these conversations with boards, holy. Like, they are impossible sometimes to like. But it's so. It's such an incredible process and you guys have been such great partners in going through that process and so open and honest and with yourselves first. So I got to give you props for that.

[Becky]

Thanks, teacher. I feel like dad just told us we did a good job.

[Ori Carmel]

Oh, God, you made it weird.

[Becky]

Always. Okay, buddy, you've been on the podcast before. You know, we're going to round it out with a one good thing. How can you put a little bow and a one good thing on what we've talked about today that you could leave with the audience?

[Ori Carmel]

I've been reading Allison Taylor recently, and if you haven't, you should not you specifically, people should. She wrote this book in 2024 called Higher Ground. It actually talks about, mostly about corporate purpose and how organizations, companies actually should think about being good corporates citizens. Right. If. If we're gonna Supreme Court decision, if we're gonna think of corporations and people, well, should we hold them accountable to be nice people and ethical people and good people? And if so, like, what does that mean for a company and how does it manage the pressures of, you know, having to have an opinion or a point of view on everything and yet not being able to always carry through on all those things because there's so many things outside of an organization or a company's control. So it's an incredible book that talks very, very pragmatically and gives very, very solid advice and frameworks around how companies, private sector companies should think about their. I don't want to say use the word corporate social responsibility, because that's a framework within of itself, but about the responsibility of being good corporate citizens in the world. So one good thing. There's a lot more overlaps between the social impact sector and the private sector. When it comes to these things and a lot more that the two sectors can learn about each other. And it seems like we oftentimes just adopt the crappy things about the private sector, like quarterly earnings and quick cycles and those types of things. We should really think about how do we adopt some of the best things about the private sector in. In. In the social impact sector and vice versa. And I think that book, Higher Ground again, Higher Ground by Alison Taylor, does a great job of highlighting some of those. Highly recommended.

[John]

Okay, I'm super intrigued. Thank you for bringing us to Higher Ground at the end of this convoy. I feel like this is what we needed as we're on this ship. I can't resist Orey. I mean, the way you show up is so generous, so kind. It cuts through the noise. We gotta link up someone's website. Y'all are dropping resources, your social impact report, all sorts of things. Can you point us to the resources on your website and where to find you online?

[Ori Carmel]

Find me on. On LinkedIn or email me oricarmelowhunt.co and find us on Sewin Co. But we're not actually what matters. What matters is, like the work. What matters is getting through the tough times and the headwinds that we're all experiencing right now. That's what matters. So if there's a way in which we can help any individual organization to do that, I would love, love, love to help and know where we can be a part of. Not your, but also your, but any person who's interested in meaningful social impact as part of their journey.

[Becky]

You are the social impact slash nonprofits, like ultimate Wingman. So thank you for coming alongside organizations, helping them find their voice, helping them find that true north. I just. I have a lot of hope in the world that I see that you could build, that you could help us all craft. So thank you for coming in here helping reframe again. I'm telling you, we need more of that magic right now. So thank you, my friend. Come back soon.

[Ori Carmel]

All right. Thanks so much, guys.

[John]

Thanks, buddy.