We Are For Good Podcast Episode 618: "Hold Fast: Finding Clarity + Measuring Impact in a Changing World" featuring Ori Carmel

Release Date: May 5, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 618 of the We Are For Good Podcast, hosts Jon McCoy, CFRE, and Becky Endicott, CFRE, engage in a profound conversation with Ori Carmel, founder and CEO of Sewin, an international strategy consultancy. The episode delves into the intricate challenges nonprofits face today, specifically focusing on finding clarity and effectively measuring impact amidst a rapidly changing world.

Guest Introduction: Ori Carmel

Becky warmly introduces Ori Carmel, praising his extensive experience and innovative approach within the nonprofit sector. She remarks, “Ori is probably the top 10 brightest person that's ever been on this podcast” (03:10). Ori's diverse background spans government, academia, social enterprises, and major corporations like American Express and Twitter, underscoring his versatile expertise.

The Challenge of Impact Measurement

The conversation kicks off with the pressing issue of impact measurement. John remarks, “We're in a world obsessed with vanity metrics, scale speed. How do we cut through that and really find how we can hold fast to creating meaningful impact?” (00:46).

Ori emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between vanity metrics and true impact. He points out that many organizations fail to measure whether their activities genuinely contribute to their mission, often getting sidetracked by superficial indicators like mailing list sizes or event attendance.

Decision-Making Framework: Thinking Fast and Slow

Ori introduces the concept from Daniel Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow, explaining the two systems of decision-making:

• System One (Fast Thinking): Governs 90% of our decisions through intuition and past experiences. While efficient, it is prone to biases and flawed judgments. For example, encountering a bear on a trail triggers an immediate "flight" response without deliberate analysis (08:26).

• System Two (Slow Thinking): Engages in deliberate, analytical thinking, necessary for complex and high-stakes decisions. However, it is highly tasking and inefficient for routine choices. Ori illustrates this by asking John to calculate “77 times 41,” highlighting the rarity and difficulty of such tasks (09:51).

Ori advises nonprofits to recognize when to employ System Two, especially in unprecedented or complex situations, urging leaders to slow down, gather more information, and consult with others to make informed decisions (12:34).

Impact Measurement Framework

Ori outlines an eight-step Impact Measurement Framework designed to help organizations align their activities with their mission:

1. Understand Your Current State: Assess where the organization stands today versus where it aims to be.
2. Establish SMART Goals: Define Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant, and Timely goals that align with the mission.
3. Attach Metrics: Determine how to measure these goals, distinguishing between activity metrics and impact metrics.
4. Bring in Data: Collect both internal and external data to evaluate performance against metrics.
5. Draw Insights: Analyze data to identify trends, gaps, and opportunities.
6. Integrate into Reporting: Use insights for organizational reporting to enhance operational excellence.
7. Drive Adoption: Ensure the team understands and implements the framework into strategic and tactical activities.
8. Optimize: Create a feedback loop to continually refine and improve processes based on data and insights (26:57).

Ori encourages organizations to download the framework from Sewin’s website and emphasizes its intuitive nature, making it accessible for nonprofits to implement effectively.

Hosts' Reflections and Challenges

The hosts candidly discuss their own struggles in implementing Ori’s framework:

• Becky: “Crystallizing the audience for me was way harder than I thought it was gonna be” (33:02).

• John: “Moving away from this mentality of tracking activities” and “challenged us to think in a very tangible way” (33:02).

They reflect on the difficulty of balancing idealism with practical necessities, such as maintaining operational stability while striving for long-term impact.

Navigating Organizational Complexity

Ori addresses the multifaceted challenges nonprofits face today, including:

• Political and Economic Uncertainty: Ongoing global tensions and economic fluctuations complicate strategic planning.

• Technological Disruption: Rapid advancements, particularly in AI, require organizations to adapt swiftly.

• Mental Health Crisis: Increasing rates of depression and isolation among individuals add another layer of complexity (16:00).

He advises organizations to focus on high-stakes, complex decisions by activating System Two thinking, ensuring they remain aligned with their true north despite external turbulences.

Balancing Passion and Practicality

In response to burnout and the temptation to pursue quick wins, Ori provides actionable advice:

• Balance Long-Term Impact with Operational Metrics: Ensuring that daily activities are aligned with strategic goals to maintain sustainability.

• Storytelling and Transparency: Communicating progress and challenges openly with stakeholders to build empathy and support (21:58).

Ori underscores the importance of maintaining equilibrium between pursuing meaningful impact and managing the organization's operational needs.

Conclusion and Resources

As the episode wraps up, Ori recommends Allison Taylor’s book Higher Ground, which explores corporate citizenship and the overlap between the private and social impact sectors. He emphasizes the potential for cross-sector learning and adopting best practices from both realms (36:10).

Ori also directs listeners to Sewin’s website for additional resources, including the Impact Measurement Framework, and encourages organizations to reach out for support in navigating complex challenges.

Final Thoughts

Becky expresses immense gratitude for Ori’s insights, highlighting the transformative impact of his framework on We Are For Good. John echoes this sentiment, appreciating Ori’s ability to cut through the noise and provide actionable strategies.

Ori concludes by reiterating the importance of meaningful social impact and offering his support to organizations striving to make a difference.

Notable Quotes:

• Ori Carmel (03:10): “It's not just about learning. It's about executing, figuring out the concrete next steps, the right next steps.”

• John (00:46): “We're in a world obsessed with vanity metrics, scale speed. How do we cut through that and really find how we can hold fast to creating meaningful impact?”

• Ori Carmel (12:34): “One of the smartest things that people can do is understand and recognize when is system two needed.”

• Becky (21:58): “what would you say to them to keep them inspired on that long road?”

Resources Mentioned:

• Impact Measurement Framework: Available for download on Sewin’s website (Sewin Co).

• Book Recommendation: Higher Ground by Allison Taylor.

This episode offers invaluable insights for nonprofit professionals seeking to enhance their impact measurement and navigate the complexities of today’s world. By implementing Ori Carmel’s frameworks and embracing a balanced approach to decision-making, organizations can achieve sustainable and meaningful change.