631. Change Leadership, Critical Hope + Building Cultures We Don’t Have to Heal From - Lindsey Fuller, Jon McCoy and Becky Endicott

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Are For Good Podcast - Episode 631

Title: Change Leadership, Critical Hope + Building Cultures We Don’t Have to Heal From
Host: Jon McCoy, CFRE and Becky Endicott, CFRE
Guest: Lindsey Fuller, Executive Director of The Teaching Well
Release Date: July 9, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 631 of the We Are For Good Podcast, hosts Jon McCoy and Becky Endicott engage in a profound conversation with Lindsey Fuller, the Executive Director of The Teaching Well. The episode delves into transformative leadership practices, the concept of critical hope, and strategies for building resilient organizational cultures that negate the need for healing from internal strife.

Overview of the Episode

The discussion centers around the evolving landscape of nonprofit leadership, emphasizing the importance of human-centered policies and practices. Lindsey Fuller shares insights from her work with The Teaching Well podcast series, particularly focusing on human-centered leadership and critical hope as pivotal elements for sustainable organizational health.

Key Discussions

1. Critical Hope

Lindsey Fuller introduces and elaborates on the concept of critical hope, distinguishing it from mere optimism or resilience. She emphasizes that critical hope is a strategic and actionable form of hope that serves as a collective reservoir of resilience.

• Definition and Importance: [05:48]
  “Critical hope is a practice that can be cultivated and is a resilience, kind of a buoy that holds us up.” – Lindsey Fuller

• Collective Resilience: Fuller discusses how critical hope fosters a shared sense of purpose and support within organizations, enabling teams to navigate challenges collaboratively.

2. Policies as Culture in Action

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the role of organizational policies in embodying and reinforcing an organization's values and culture.

• Human-Centered Policies: [09:53]
  “Policies are culture in action. They're not paperwork, they're expressions of your values.” – John McCoy

• Evaluation and Revision: Lindsey stresses the necessity of regularly reviewing and updating policies to ensure they align with current organizational values and the needs of employees.

• Five-Part Policy Framework: [17:02]
  Lindsey outlines a five-part framework for developing liberatory, human-centered policies, including dreaming, obtaining feedback, vetting legally, brokering compromises, and implementing strategic communication.

3. Human-Centered Leadership

The episode delves into principles of human-centered leadership, advocating for authenticity, vulnerability, and continuous personal growth among leaders.

• Modeling Leadership: [25:24]
  “Leaders are not perfect humans. They're not going to get it right all the time.” – Lindsey Fuller

• Feedback and Self-Awareness: Fuller highlights the importance of leaders seeking honest feedback and surrounding themselves with “mirrors” to foster self-awareness and growth.

• Building Trust and Morale: The discussion underscores how transparent and accountable leadership practices enhance trust and morale within teams.

4. Rest and Self-Care in Leadership

Addressing the often-overlooked aspect of leadership wellness, Lindsey shares personal experiences and strategies for integrating rest into a demanding leadership role.

• Structured Rest Practices: [37:13]
  “Rest is the hard, structured, consistent, scheduled work of visibilizing and then resting into the services and supports that I'm entitled to.” – Lindsey Fuller

• Organizational Support: Fuller explains how embedding rest into organizational policies not only benefits leaders but also sets a precedent for the entire team’s well-being.

Key Insights and Takeaways

1. Policies Reflect Values: Organizational policies should be living documents that embody the core values and culture of the organization, rather than mere compliance tools.

2. Critical Hope as a Collective Asset: Developing a shared sense of critical hope can serve as a foundational resilience mechanism for organizations facing challenges.

3. Authentic Leadership: Leaders must embrace vulnerability, seek continuous feedback, and invest in personal growth to foster a supportive and effective organizational environment.

4. Integrating Rest: Structured rest and self-care are essential for sustainable leadership, preventing burnout, and modeling healthy behaviors for teams.

Notable Quotes

• Lindsey Fuller on Critical Hope:
  “Critical hope is the collective well of resilience. It's where we all get to revisit and draw from.” [05:48]

• John McCoy on Policies:
  “Policies are culture in action. They're not paperwork, they're expressions of your values.” [09:53]

• Lindsey Fuller on Leadership Vulnerability:
  “Leaders are not perfect humans. They're not going to get it right all the time.” [25:24]

• Lindsey Fuller on Rest:
  “Rest is the hard, structured, consistent, scheduled work of visibilizing and then resting into the services and supports that I'm entitled to.” [37:13]

Conclusion

Episode 631 of the We Are For Good Podcast offers invaluable insights into fostering resilient and compassionate leadership within the nonprofit sector. Through Lindsey Fuller's expertise, listeners gain a deeper understanding of critical hope, the integral role of policies in shaping organizational culture, and the necessity of authentic leadership practices. The episode serves as a compelling guide for nonprofit professionals aspiring to cultivate thriving, human-centered organizations.

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Connect with Lindsey Fuller and The Teaching Well:

• Website: The Teaching Well
• LinkedIn: Lindsey Fuller
• Podcast: Gather at the Well – Available on major podcast platforms

Join the We Are For Good Community:

• Website: www.weareforgood.com
• Event Registration: ImpactUp Event

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This summary was crafted to provide an engaging and comprehensive overview of the podcast episode, ensuring that key discussions and insights are highlighted for those who have not listened to the full episode.

Transcript

[Becky]

Hey, friend. If you've been feeling stuck in your mission, you're not alone. Impact up movement is happening July 10th and it's designed to help you unlock momentum with clarity, courage and community.

[John]

Yes, Impact up is a free one day virtual event for change makers who are ready to move their mission forward. Here you'll walk away with real practical tools like how to use your data to spark action, how to craft a clear and compelling elevator pitch, and how to create messaging that really cuts through and moves people.

[Becky]

We'll also tap into joy fueled fundraising inspiration and even slow down for somatic practices to help you lead with more grounding and alignment. Because real movement starts from within.

[John]

And here's what makes it even more powerful. The We Are for Good community is hosting local meetups in 20 plus cities around the world. From New York to Nairobi, from Calgary to Caracas, Venezuela. Changemakers are gathering in real life to connect, reflect and build community together.

[Becky]

So grab your free [e-mail] impactup and check the map to see if there's a meetup near you. That's weareforgood.com impactup let's get in motion together.

[John]

See you there, friends. Hey, I'm John.

[Becky]

And I'm Becky.

[John]

And this is the We Are for Good podcast.

[Becky]

Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more with, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.

[John]

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.

[Becky]

So welcome to the good community. We're non profit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

[John]

So let's get started. Becky, what's happening?

[Becky]

Favorite human alert right now happening in the house.

[John]

I mean, to have Lindsey Fuller in this house means the world. She's been in our feed this entire season. Friends, and I hope that you have not missed gather at the well because I want to give some context. You know, we believe that what starts here ripples. And we believe that in our bones that we don't want to just be talking about things, but we want to be integrating them into our life. And when Lindsay and her team at the teaching well came to us with this concept of what does that look like in a media form? How can we actually create a podcast that teaches and talks about the things and put it into practice and wrap you in resources to gather at the well emerged and we're just wrapping up really a second season all about human centered leadership. You know, being human centered is not about being comfortable, it's about being courageous. And we're going to dive in today with Lindsay about the takeaways from this series. Why if you've missed it, what you need to go back for and and if you've been tracking along, we want to highlight just some things that we don't want to get forgotten in the feed. So if you don't know Lindsey Fuller, she's the executive director of the teaching well one of our favorite orgs that is living this out loud that they're not teaching ideas, they're teaching principles that are working for them in real time. So Lindsay, welcome back to the show. It's always good to see you.

[Lindsay]

Thanks for having me. You know, I love to be here.

[John]

Lindsay. I mean when you think about this journey through this series, what's the thread that you really hope people carry with them?

[Lindsay]

Yeah, I mean I think that there are so many ways that we have agency that are overlooked and when I think about the reclamation of our well being and how much of our life we spend working, it's a non negotiable for me that we broker really concrete ways to not have to harm from employment. Like it's just too much of our life. And so you know, in our first season when we talked about microdosing wellness it was really thinking about at the individual level. Whereas our agency and what I have enjoyed about this second season is thinking about right what are the policies, system structures that further promote because there's this balance of individual responsibility and collective care. And certainly in that collective care is also the responsibility of the leader and those with positional authority. And so you know, it's almost the macro dosing of wellness that we started to play with in this second season.

[Becky]

I mean if you listen to gather at the well season one to me it was such a mind bending series and we felt like it was going to be really deeply needed. I had no idea the way that it would come into my soul and unlock and challenge things that I'd seen working in the space, things that I'd felt places of misalignment. And this second season has just been this deeper dive into how can we absolutely reframe the way people are grounded in this work And I want to lift one of them because you had just an incredible episode on cultivating critical hope and what encouraged impeccable timing for what is happening in the world. I mean we need hope all the time. And we're massive proponents that hope is a form of resistance. But also, you're saying hope isn't just soft like you're saying it's strategic, it's studying. It's a practice. It's not a personality trait. And that reframing is so dang powerful. So talk about why critical hope is so important right now and how is it different from just being maybe optimistic or resilient? Dive. Dive into that a little bit more.

[Lindsay]

Yeah, I love some critical hope. I'm, I'm a critical hope junkie. And I think that the evolution of thinking for me has really been challenging this notion of a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. And I think the growth mindset was weaponized a lot, especially in the education sector, and can have some like, grit and racial undertones, frankly. But I think at its core, when we first started to explore mindset, there was really rich learning. And as I've continued to grow and reflect, I've realized that most of the things that we've assigned to personalities or that we've given to someone as a badge of, like, they just are positive and the rest of us just aren't. Right. There's this way of labeling and over identification that is further fixing us into identities that maybe we don't consent to, aren't aligned with, you know, that feel static and the human experience. And what gives me critical hope, frankly, is that it's never too late to heal. It's never too small of an investment in our personal self awareness, but also our growth. And so for me, critical hope is, is, yeah, a practice that can be cultivated and is a resilience, kind of a buoy that holds us up. It's, it's, it's really, really powerful. When I think about all of the leadership moves that someone can make, when you can reinforce your team and inject hope into the way you move, which is different than toxic positivity or just sheer optimism. There's teeth to hope, there's. There's a strategy to hope. There's a necessity. But there are concrete actions you can take. And when I think about cultivating individual resilience, that's really important. But critical hope is the collective well of resilience. It's where we all get to revisit and draw from. And that inspires me a lot because it creates the conditions for us to say, I don't have to have all the answers. I can have a moment of weakness. I can go through a really challenging personal season of my life and my teammates aren't my therapists, but they do have something that they can offer always and that is sourcing from this mission driven source that never runs out. If we're all pouring back into it, it's like a never ending resource. It's just abundance in action.

[John]

My gosh. And it's like you think about how our collective sector could. Should be that buoy for everybody because we're pouring into these challenges that we. You have to come at em with the hope that it can be better. That's why we're laying down a lot of other opportunities to pour into some of this work. And so I love that CTA that you're dropping there and just how you define it. Um, Becky, I think of all the years we work together, I. All the stories that you can tell of like your childhood. Your dad used to say something that always comes up in my, in conversations, which was don't tell me, show me. Right.

[Becky]

Oh my gosh, that is a Steve Kraus. That is my father all the time. Yes. Don't tell me, show me.

[John]

And I think about that when, you know, it's easy to hear the word policies and everyone starts to go to sleep over here because, oh, we're going to be talking about policies. But your wording and the way that you've built the case around this for me too, is that policies are culture in action. They're not paperwork, they're expressions of your values. It's the actual living out, it's the showing, it's not the just telling. So will you talk about, you know, that policies are where values live or die. What have people gotten wrong about human centered policies?

[Lindsay]

Well, first of all, policies aren't human centered. Typically that's the first issue that we're fighting against.

[John]

Hot. Take one.

[Lindsay]

I'm just like, what? Who built these? Who are these for? You know, it almost, it actually reminds me, look, let's dredge up our old tea. But when we first encountered and we were looking at your document, your.

[Becky]

Oh my gosh, the contract. The contract from hell.

[John]

Y' all gotta hear this story. Yes.

[Lindsay]

Which we've already talked about. We don't have to judge it all up. But. But I'm like, but who, but who wrote this? Who designed it? Does it actually reflect the values of John, Becky and Julie? The answer I knew was no. Which is why actually it flagged for me so quickly was there was this cognitive and somatic dissonance where I was like, no, no, no. Every time I'm around them, I feel safe, I feel encouraged. I feel aligned, I feel hopeful, I feel inspired. And then I see this piece of paper and I'm like, something's off here, right? So I got immediately curious, like, who, who, who built this and for whom? Who does this protect and who does it encourage and what does it limit? And I think that's the first big piece around policies is very likely you have absorbed them from someone else, a stock company that you purchased it from, a lawyer, a former board member that you never met. It's like, whose legacy is it? Because if it's not the current leadership, then you've got to gut it. So that's one thing, I think. The other thing is, to your point, John, that policies are static, that they're boring. I'm like, no, these things are about protection and about amplifying our greatest talents. And I've always really grappled as I'm writing a book right now. One of the chapters is HR is Not the Homie. And that's not to.

[John]

I hope that's.

[Becky]

The title, are you kidding me?

[Lindsay]

Of the chapter. But it's. That's not to knock HR professionals. I actually really rock with HR professionals, especially the ones that are really centered around collective liberation. But I talk about this in that episode where I, I discuss the challenge that HR is actually, in my mind, in a human centered organization. It sits at the intersection of protecting the organization and protecting the people. And that in most companies that's not the case. HR is protecting the organization, minimizing legal risk. It is just about the org. No matter how much they care as humans, their position, their JD and what they're told behind closed doors is to protect the org and mitigate legal risk. And so when I think about human centered policies, it is how we actualize sitting in the middle path that both the people and the org can be. Well, that there's this false binary, that it's us versus them. Systems should work for us and with us, and we have absolute agency to recreate them, especially if you're in a leadership seat. So wake up, hurry up, rewrite it. Like, figure it out. And I just, I wanted to demystify it because it's not as expensive as people made me believe. It is time consuming. Okay, it is time consuming. You can do it in waves. We need to compost perfectionism and release the expectation of redoing the entire handbook. Chip away at it gradually, but in one or two years, you're going to have a living artifact that brings your culture to life, that creates more psychological safety, greater investment, decreases Attrition increases retention, satisfaction and efficacy because people believe that the organization is a living ecosystem that works for them, not against them. So they're going to give their all. It's just an, it's an overlooked strategic move for me to really invest in human centered policies.

[John]

Hey friends, here's a bit of real talk. This movement doesn't happen without community and that includes our incredible ecosystem partners.

[Becky]

Big gratitude to gift butter, RKD group, donor doc feather whiteboard and so on. These aren't just sponsors, they're mission driven allies showing up to fuel change alongside us.

[John]

Their support helps bring you the free tools education keynotes and summits because they believe like we do, that investing in people is what powers real impact.

[Becky]

So if you're searching for a new CRM tech tool, maybe a brand partner, direct mail partner, or even an impact strategist, we'd love for you to start with our trusted Rex. We vetted them so you don't have to.

[John]

You want to learn more, head over to weareforgood.com Rex that's weareforgood.com recs for VIP access to orgs and amazing humans doing really great work.

[Becky]

I was today years old when I felt that policies could almost be a recruitment tool. That one, I would want to read them two, a recruitment tool and a safety net. And John, I'm going to throw us under the bus. I'm going to tell this story because we did exactly what you said, what you just said. When we got to our healthcare organization, we went from a shop of like 170 down to 10 or 12. And so, and I know that this will resonate with a lot of people because we all just spin a lot of plates, we wear a ton of hats, all the metaphors. And we realized as we're sort of looking around, this entire foundation needs a refresh. And I remember the day that we were like, where are our policies and procedures? And if, if there was a metaphor, imagine our policies and procedures are in this very dusty box with cobwebs everywhere. We open it like, you know, the dust goes everywhere. So what do John and I do? We go back to our old organization, we ask them for their policies and procedures. We take them, we make a copy, we assign them across the board. Do you remember this, like the horror of what I've just heard juxtaposed with what we did. And, and I'm not throwing shade on anybody who does this, you know, because that is what we think thought was best for our organization to get us compliant. But what you're saying is how do we go beyond being compliant and fulfilling that jd that juris doctorate legal role and how do we put humans at the center and use it as this tool? And I, I want to you to lift this five part policy framework that you broke down in this policies and cultures in action episode. And like lift that five part framework just really quickly and then tell us where you see people getting stuck. Because I we were that organization that powered through oh, let's just check the box. Let's get these things done without ever thinking that it could be such a powerful tool. So help us out.

[Lindsay]

Yeah. Well first let me just say I think when you started by saying I was today years old when I realized that policies are a recruitment tool. They legitimately are for us. I believe they're one of many. But we share our handbook with folks as they're deciding if they're going to come through. And I think what policies do is they say how do we do work here really? Because when we're recruiting we can convince people, we can bamboozle people that it's going to be epic to work in our organization. Policies are proof that they one artifact, one bit of evidence at minimum that allows people to say wait a minute, in writing you said so what's actually going on in here? And I think that's really interesting just to quickly recap for folks, we want to dream into a really liberatory policy. We want to then obtain feedback and then we want to vet it. We want legal to actually look at this policy draft. We want to broker the middle path, which to us really means typically your aspirational or liberatory vision for a human centered policy is going to run up against best practice, legal risk, financial feasibility. And so you need to figure out, you know, what can we commit to in the long term and what can we implement and where is it? Just we need to fold down and trust that lawyers are protecting us. That's their job. And then after we incorporate and land, we socialize with a communication cascade that's really strategic and make sure that especially people managers feel equipped to teach onboard support and progress, monitor our policies. Those are the ones that are on the ground with your team. So I think a couple of places where folks go wrong. First they don't invite the voice of the people who are most directly impacted by that policy. Stop guessing. We have to.

[John]

Are we tired of this plot line? It's like in every part of our.

[Lindsay]

Work, literally every, it's every part of our world is people in leadership that have Lost touch with what their people actually want or need, or they base it solely on the stage of life that they're in. Right. So you have many senior leaders who are complete with having kids. Their kids are older, their kids may even be in college. So they're not thinking about the fact that preschool requires a third job. You know, paying for it these days is ridiculous. What happens when your kid is sick and the nanny share is like, yeah, no, we're not good with that. We don't want those germs over here. Like, how do we broker those realities? So that's one thing. Right. Is like being out of touch and not soliciting the impact of folks on the front line who are most directly impacted by these policies and who typically don't have positional authority and have less resources coming in via salary. Another area that I think we, we miss is that legal step, which to some folks may feel, you know, opposite from human centered, but you are responsible as a leader for protecting the resources of the organization too. And that's. You need to be unapologetic about that. That is your job also. And so having a lawyer be like, yeah, that's not a thing that actually is against the law. That will open you to risk. It actually could long term risk, put risk on your employees. That's really important to check. And I know many small nonprofits struggle with the financial burden of engaging with legal counsel. To that I would say pool together, bring together multiple nonprofits, reach out and say, have you already. Do you already have a policy on this that's been vetted by a legal team? Can we actually to what you said, Becky, can we wordsmith, can we adapt? Can we adjust? Why should all of us be replicating? Right. And reinventing the wheel? And the third is around the communication cascade. We don't train our people managers. So you have a dope thing on paper. Your team is bought in, they're excited that it exists and no one knows how to implement.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Lindsay]

And people managers see an outlier experience because that's what we. One of the things we hear most regularly in nonprofits and in schools teams is there's typically an outlier. Sometimes I call them fierce askers, people who are unapologetic about getting what they want and need. Sometimes that aligns with different identity markers that have more privilege, sometimes it doesn't. But if you don't train your people manager, there's a glaring example on your team of someone who is abusing the policy, taking advantage of the policy, stretching it beyond its limits. And you have a bunch of other people who aren't. And that builds resentment, which is one of the heaviest, most toxic emotions that can weave its way inside of your organizational culture. And so fidelity, consistency, fairness do matter when it comes to policies. And if you don't train the people that are responsible for stewarding your team, you're going to have an issue.

[John]

I mean, yes to everything you're saying. I just think I want to lift a flag because we struggle with this as a company of three people. It's like, how do you build equity in at these different pieces when we're all wearing a bunch of hats? We all started from scratch. Like what's kind of some impartation on small teams? You know that, yeah, we do need to have that up to date. How do you prioritize that when you're also watching the cash flow and like trying to make it work, you know, as a really scrappy startup?

[Lindsay]

Well, first of all, self compassion. I think that I'm a big fan of one year strategic plans. Which people roll their eyes, they're like, why not three to five? I'm like, since COVID you have predicted.

[Becky]

This year, friend, I assure you it is not in your strategic.

[Lindsay]

None of them have been the same. None of them have been the same. Not a single year. We would spend so much time, energy and resource in a multi year plan. Now do we have multi year goals? Yes. Do we have a big hairy vision? Yes. But one year strategic plans. And I think when you zoom out in your annual strategic planning and you ask yourself, is there space? Do we have the capacity to have policy work be one of our focal areas? If not, how many years are you going to go and say this isn't a priority? So I mean I would just start with self compassion. It may not be the year for you to focus on that. Having policies is better than not having any. So purchasing a stock one or borrowing from a trusted organization that's willing to share their intellectual property in that way is better than nothing. And then I would say each quarter chip away at one policy. I really advocate for that internal audit. That doesn't have to be a three day, $30,000 expenditure. I believe that you can have a one hour meeting, look at your policy handbook, put checks next to the ones that feel okay, put minuses next to the ones that really feel like, ugh, this is not going to work and write a short list of the ones that don't even exist that you feel like are missing and then decide force rank. This is our priority. List and each quarter visit that list and say, is this still the order of importance? Let's work on number one then and just start to shave away at it. That's what I would say. You know what I mean? You have to do a gradual collective approach and then like realistic, small, feasible wins.

[Becky]

Yeah. And I love that everybody has agency in it to speak up, to mold. I mean, the policies, it's laughable now that I know now what I know what I did not know then. It's like the fact, John, that we thought we could just take another cultures policies and just fold them into our culture is laughable because policies are living, breathing documents. You're right. They should not be covered in dust and cobwebs. That means you're not centering the human. And I, I just think you've gone so deep into this human centered leadership. I just think it's so beautiful because one of your quotes was, you can't teach your way into a new culture. You're going to have to lead it differently. And so I want to get into that human centered leadership and I want you to talk about how leaders can start to model that human centeredness, whether it's in the micro or the macro. Like how do they do it with themselves? How do they do it with their co leaders, their peers? Like get into it with us. Because I think this is such a moment for leadership to rise and build these new human centered cultures. You're doing it beautifully, I believe.

[Lindsay]

I appreciate that. And I'll make mistakes and I do all the time. And it's just at the core of who I am and how I view the role of an organizational or team leader. So it's, I do think it's easier for me maybe than some because it's the only definition of leadership that I have and that's built from a lot of non examples of leadership, actually. It's not like I was born this way. It's like I have seen a lot of people abuse power. Yeah, a lot of people. And I have. This is why I'm writing a whole book on it. I have a whole set of workplace abusers. And so they have taught me and I'm grateful for them because they have taught me exactly who I do not want to be.

[Becky]

Yeah. Wow.

[Lindsay]

And it's forced me to really interrogate, well, what is the antidote to that? What's on the other side? What's, you know, how do we operate from a place of collective liberation? I'll say that the first step in the teaching wells Curriculum around stress management, cultivating resilience. I mean, so many of the through lines that we teach on the first step is noticing. And I think what concerns me more than the fact that we don't see a ton of examples of human centered leadership is that leaders aren't aware if they are or are not being human centered. Like, it literally starts with you. And I think that we have a resistance to feedback in the professional world. Folks are so stressed that it's really hard to absorb feedback. But most of you have glaring examples and data points around whether you are near or far from making people feel safe. Seen and supported and developed. It shouldn't be a mystery. So I just want to name like, you need to surround yourself with some legit mirrors. Stop getting coached by your best friend. Invest in a neutral third party. I'm telling you right now, some folks, only leadership feedback that they absorb is asking from their mama. And I'm like, she's biased, friend. She rocks for you. She's always gonna say you're great and you're over here with your neon people's necks. Mama don't know she didn't run that Fortune 500 company. So I'm just like, we really need to focus on surrounding ourselves with mirrors and creating the space to actually look at feedback. I cannot tell you how many teachers tell us that the biggest source of relational rupture is not overt oppression from their principle. It's the fact that their principles survey them and they never hear about that feedback. They never close the loop. So stop asking people for feedback on your leadership. If you're not going to look at it, if you're not going to internalize it, if you're not going to come back and share, you don't have to share an interpretive dance and a 70 page PowerPoint. But you can come back and say there were two themes. Here's something I heard. I'm doing well and I'm committing to continue doing it. Here's what it'll look like, sound like and feel like so that y' all can keep me accountable to it. And here's one thing that I heard through the majority of these surveys that I need to work on. So I've invested in a coach focused on this and it'll look like, sound like, and feel like this. And I want you to hold me accountable to that part too.

[John]

I love the way you describe also, just like change leadership and it's been like a through line since we've known you. I think you've really pushed this concept of it's not just teaching, it's modeling, it's actually doing the work. And so I want to ask you, just from like the standpoint of someone listening that doesn't feel like they're in positional authority, maybe they're not the boss. What's an entry point to being the change leader that you want to create in your team?

[Lindsay]

Yeah, well, I mean, get really clear on the org values that you resonate with. Really make sure that the mission is still calling your spirit. And then find co conspirators and allies and, you know, comrades in the work. I talk a lot about how it's easier to complain and disparage leadership and organizational culture. That's what some people think. I think it's significantly more easy to become a culture keeper and be like, no, I'm gonna rally. I'm gonna rally my community around this. Like, wow, so this meeting is awkward for all of us. I'm gonna actively make it less awkward. I'm gonna use humor to heal. I'm going to check in with folks before the meeting. Literally as you walk in being like, yo, let's, let's have fun in this meeting. Let's play, Ooh, let's see if we can make this the most effective meeting. Like, people have so much influence over each other and we're waiting for this leader. Like, leaders are not perfect humans. They're not going to get it right all the time. But to me, being really clear on who you are and what your role is and finding other people that are down to chip away at the culture that you don't want and replace it with what you do want, that groundswell, that momentum is palpable. And you know, I, I just think a lot about how trust and morale are deepened when we invest in progress. I just, I think that getting it perfect isn't the, the goal. It's like, I would rather tell my team, here's what I'm working on, here's what we're working on, and lift the veil and show incremental progress. And I think that my team actually respects and trusts that a lot more than me setting a really ambitious goal and, and missing it over and over and not externalizing how I'm fighting for it. I'm fighting for all of us. I'm fighting for you. And I'm fighting against some of my learned behaviors and patterns that were acculturated into me as a young leader. I'm. I haven't arrived. And that encourages them to adopt a similar mindset. I haven't arrived either, but we're all moving in the same direction.

[Becky]

I am here for the rejection of perfection.

[Lindsay]

Hey.

[Becky]

And the embrace of humanness. Because when we're grounded, I think about, like, when I'm in self, when I'm in flow, and the strides I can make when I'm in flow. And that energy is so palpable to people around you. And I think this living out loud component is one of the most empowering pieces of healing and evolution. I believe this is the way. And Lindsay, I mean, like, I just want to say we are so honored to have you and gather at the well within the we are for good ecosystem. I want to shout out to Julie too, who helped produce and cultivate this alongside you. Alongside. She's the best, Marisol. She is alongside Rebbe and like this powerful team of women who see it and who are unleashing this new way of reframe. And I want you to get reflective with me for a second. Let's go get some reflections from the well.

[Lindsay]

Amen.

[Becky]

Like, when you think back to this series, if you could bottle one insight to hand to a leader who's struggling but is really vibing on what you're saying and saying, yes, I want to manifest that sort of culture, not just in my team, but like you said, in my community. Because this is Community Building 101. Have you thought about that? Friends, I guarantee you I never thought of a policy or some human centered design as being the anchor in the nexus to grow the whole movement. But I believe what you're saying has resonance in that. So what's that insight you're going to hand over to a leader today?

[Lindsay]

Yeah, I think that what I would say to them is you've already taken the most important first step, like noticing and saying, I'm committed to evolving my practice as a leader. So you're already winning. And now what I would say is there's mirrors and windows work that you need to invest in and it's likely going to be a financial investment to the mirrors work of looking at yourself and likely needing others to reflect to you. Gathering data, getting a coach, asking your most trusted people to not sugarcoat or sandwich approach. Here's something positive. Then there's critical. I'm like, we have overdone compliment sandwich really compliments. Like, we need honest, truthful accountability and we need to invest in supports and scaffolds that will help us take action on those. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Yeah, you don't have to Fix it right away. But you have to take concrete steps towards it. And then there's the windows work, which is like, how am I seeing the world and what am I exposing myself to? A lot of us get into a rut, right? Where we are consuming the same types of media, where we read a leadership book 14 years ago and we're still trying to pull from that. Okay. I'm like, things have evolved. Things have changed. How are we surrounding ourselves with people that are pouring in in ways that push our practice? Recently I've been, like, on a little search for Ed homies. I'm like, oh, I looked up and I don't have a lot of executive director friends in the nonprofit sector. I have a ton of school and district leader friends. I have clients that are eds, podcaster friends. They're podcaster friends. Exactly. Okay. You know, but I was like, huh? I actually need other people that are also fighting to be human centered folks sitting in the same seat that I'm in to bounce ideas off of without the gaze of my team. And I love my team, but all of us need low risk, low stakes ideation points. And one of the biggest challenges that I've faced as a leader that I've only recently been able to describe is that I'm a verbal processor. So I ideate. I'm making meaning of things out loud. And sometimes as a leader, it feels like when you do that, people hear it and then they. That's it. It's concrete, it's set in stone. I'm like, wait, no, I was. I was just trying to make. Make meaning and grapple. And so we need those spaces. So if you need to go to your board and say, I need coaching, I just hired a coach. I haven't had a coach in the four years I've been at the teaching well, I've paid for everyone else to get coaching, but I was stewarding our funds and it wasn't a strategic investment at the time. And now I'm like, oh, no. The next evolution of the teaching well necessitates me leveling up.

[Becky]

Absolutely.

[Lindsay]

And I need to invest in that. And so I would just say to that struggling leader who is bought in. Now you see it. What are you going to do about it? Invest in you.

[John]

Yeah.

[Lindsay]

Because an investment in you is going to create ripples as we are for good, says inside of your organ, outside of it.

[John]

My gosh, like, Lindsay, what you brought to bear here is just such a gift. Like, thank you for leading well, and I want to ask you, as we Start to close today. Like, you hold a lot of different titles in your life. What does it look like to rest and lead well at the same time? Like, how do you carve that out? And I know we did an episode about the sabbatical, and I want to give space. Like, don't miss that episode that dropped a couple of weeks back. But, like, what does rest really look like for you in this next season?

[Lindsay]

For me, I think that rest well, first of all, being in a wellness organization is the greatest level of accountability I didn't know I needed. So now that I know what I know about what works. Okay, now that I know what I know about what works, I have to be more disciplined and diligent with embedding those things into my day. I teach on microdosing wellness, and I have to be accountable to embedding that in my own schedule. And Honestly, it took four years, but we've invested in 20 hours of executive assistant for me, and she understands the assignment. What I did was I actually put it in writing, like, what I needed with her. We actually took notes of, like, oh, I actually want a lunch that people don't call me during my lunch, or I don't think this wants to be shocking. Lunch in my calendar says lunch and protected work time. And she literally was like, we're not calling it that anymore. Your lunch is getting a rebrand because you. You have patterned your calendar. She. Look, she read me for filth in the interview. She was like, here's some of the. Here's some of the she's working title. So here's what I think are the root causes of your exhaustion. And some of them were, like, lacking consistent boundaries. Yeah, but this is what I mean about investing. And so I think that rest for me looks like actually taking advantage of the policies that everyone else in my org does. Like, everyone else does their body work or their therapy during the workday. I'm the only one. Everyone has comp time. After long work days, I often fill mine. And that is when I talk about being the protagonist in my burnout journey. I just never knew the level of discipline required for self care. And so rest is light and fluffy for me in this next season. But it's also the hard, structured, consistent, scheduled work of visibilizing and then resting into the services and supports that I'm entitled to, that the organization pays for and that I want for myself. And so I think there's a soft and a hard side of rest in this season for me.

[Becky]

Thank you for healing and resting out loud. I'm watching you very close.

[Lindsay]

Amen.

[Becky]

You're watching.

[Lindsay]

Everybody is.

[Becky]

You know, and I. Do I. That. And I. And I say that like we're all watching each other in this way that's beautiful and nonjudgmental and, oh, that would be something good to integrate. And we're talking about the hard crap. I mean, putting a practice of rest in is so antithetical to me as a mom, as a woman, as a working human. It is everything to our ability to keep evolving, to keep going, to keep expanding. And I just think, how lucky are we to get to know you in this work? And I. And I believe it's. It's going to be a healing balm, and it's going to help the reframe and the evolution of this sector. So, Lindsay, we all want it.

[Lindsay]

We need.

[Becky]

I mean, it is be. It is so long overdue. I mean, we're already all in the burnout phase. So, like, we're going to do this together, but, like, let's change it. Let's change it for ourselves, not for our kids. I mean, let's change it now so that our kids don't have to.

[Lindsay]

Well, and that's the thing.

[Becky]

They come into impact work.

[Lindsay]

And Becky, that's the thing that I just want to double click. Like, I've had this really strong somatic opening in the last couple years that, like, I don't want to wait until I'm an elder.

[Becky]

Yeah, same.

[Lindsay]

There's something about I honor all of the elders and the ancestors who have put in their work, and then they get to retire and rest. Like, I honor that. And I'm like, but isn't there a different way? Can't we paradigm shift? Can't we honor. And then there's duality, and we want to change things because I don't want to wait to travel until I retire. I don't want to wait to rest until I retire. I want to find a way to not have to heal from employment. Like, I just mean that. I just keep saying it because I'm like, no, I want to do it now. And one of the other pieces I just want to invite people towards is recognizing if you have it good. I think sometimes we're always looking for what's broken. And recently I was like, okay, what I do is I turn around organizations. I was a turnaround leader in a school. I was a turnaround district leader. I came to the teaching. Well, this was a turnaround organization. And recently I was like, oh, snap, we turned it around. It's turned. So what now?

[John]

Stop and enjoy. Like stop and recognize.

[Lindsay]

Smell the frickin flowers. For real. Like I, I, but really I'm like our nervous systems get wired sometimes and then I'm like oh, there is no workplace abuser in here. Oh we have policies that work for us. Oh, we're well compensated. We have a lot of rest time. Like there is absolute permission and there's resources to back it in the teaching. Well, so why aren't I accepting the invitation to be well now that is on me. Because actually we've created the conditions so some of us aren't in burnout, some of us aren't in a trauma filled work environment. Some of us have a great boss and incredible teammates and there are small things we could do to enhance our organization but actually it's healthy. We're not in survival mode and there's just a prayer that I have for us to be able to pick up and realize when it's good. So that we're not always in fight or flight or freeze or fawn, but we're actually flourishing and we can see it and we're free and we're enjoying the freedom real time that is also critical in the longevity in our career and our impact. So if you got it good, don't feel bad. The oppression Olympics are outdated. I have conversion for you. I am, I have joy for you. If things are good for you, enjoy that. Be present with it.

[Becky]

I, I just think this is, this is a healing conversation. This is an expansive conversation. I know people are going to want to connect with you, connect with the teaching. Well, we're definitely want you to check out the entire Gather at the well series. It is so fire if this lit you up. This is just a taste of what is broken down in each of these episodes. So Lindsay, tell listeners where you show up online how they can connect with you.

[Lindsay]

Yes, check us [e-mail] you can find us most actively on LinkedIn though that might change. We got some college interns coming in this summer to get the socials popping so don't sleep on us. Okay. You can definitely find us at Gather at the well, both the podcast and the blog that teaches. But connect with me on LinkedIn. Connect with my team. Watch us. Hold us accountable to living and healing out loud. We're here for it and we're ready to be in community with you.

[John]

So grateful for you my friend. Thanks for doing this for me. We world, like all of us, benefit from this work that you have brought us into. So, so grateful to spend time with you.

[Becky]

Let's keep going.

[Lindsay]

I appreciate being here, y'. All. Let's do it. Yeah, let's keep working.