632. Making a Movement: How Movements Begin - Spark, Belief + Generosity - Seth Godin

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Making a Movement: How Movements Begin - Spark, Belief + Generosity" with Seth Godin

Podcast Information:

• Title: We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits
• Host: Jon McCoy, CFRE & Becky Endicott, CFRE
• Episode: 632. Making a Movement: How Movements Begin - Spark, Belief + Generosity
• Guest: Seth Godin
• Release Date: July 14, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 632 of the We Are For Good Podcast, hosts Jon McCoy and Becky Endicott delve into the mechanics of building impactful movements within the nonprofit sector. They are joined by the renowned marketing guru and bestselling author, Seth Godin, whose insights provide a profound understanding of strategy, creativity, and generosity in fostering movements.

Welcome and Setting the Tone (00:00 - 02:40)

The episode kicks off with Jon and Becky expressing their excitement about having Seth Godin back on the podcast. They highlight Seth's extensive contributions to marketing and leadership thinking through his books like Purple Cow, Tribes, Linchpin, and his latest, Strategy. Jon emphasizes the significance of Seth's work, particularly referencing The Carbon Almanac, which symbolizes the power of community and storytelling in driving change.

Notable Quote:

Seth Godin: "You know, you raise the bar, you make my day better every time we talk." [00:41]

Strategy vs. Tactics in Movement Building (02:40 - 08:04)

Seth introduces the concept of "the conversation before the conversation," challenging the traditional, rigid approaches often seen in nonprofits. He contrasts the indoctrination-heavy methods of education with the dynamic, adaptable strategies required for successful movement building. Seth criticizes the tendency to mimic others without understanding the underlying strategy, using the analogy of nonprofits adopting SMS fundraising without a tailored strategic approach.

Key Points:

• Conversation Before Action: Emphasizes the need for strategic thinking before implementing tactics.
• Critique of Mimicry: Warns against adopting strategies without understanding their purpose or adapting them to fit unique missions.
• Adaptability: Highlights the necessity for nonprofits to evolve rather than stick to outdated methods.

Notable Quote:

Seth Godin: "If we're going to talk about building a movement and you've got your pencils ready to write down every step, it's not going to work." [03:01]

Defaulting to the Familiar and Its Pitfalls (08:04 - 15:11)

Seth discusses the human tendency to cling to familiar practices, especially in critical roles like those of brain surgeons or established corporations like McDonald's. He underscores that while consistency is key for businesses with resolved problems (e.g., McDonald's french fries), nonprofits dealing with unsolved issues must innovate and iterate to make meaningful progress.

Key Points:

• Innovation vs. Consistency: Differentiates between industries where consistency is paramount and those where innovation is necessary for progress.
• Nonprofit Challenges: Highlights that nonprofits must continuously evolve to address unresolved societal problems effectively.
• Strategy as a Point of View: Clarifies that strategy involves a unique perspective that isn't easily democratized or replicated.

Notable Quote:

Seth Godin: "If you are trying to make a library that's vibrant... you're going to have to change stuff because the world changed with or without you." [09:06]

Embracing Motion in Strategy (15:11 - 21:55)

The conversation shifts to the concept of motion within strategic planning. Seth emphasizes that while values should remain steadfast, the tactics to uphold these values must adapt to the changing world. Using the Frick Museum's refurbishment as an example, he illustrates how aligning brand promises with contemporary tactics is crucial for relevance and engagement.

Key Points:

• Values vs. Tactics: Maintains that while core values should remain unchanged, the methods to achieve them must be flexible.
• Case Study - Frick Museum: Demonstrates the importance of updating tactics to meet the expectations of a modern audience.
• Strategic Adaptation: Encourages nonprofits to reassess and redesign their strategies to remain impactful in a rapidly evolving landscape.

Notable Quote:

Seth Godin: "Strategy is not tactics. Tactics are the things we do every day to support the longer arc." [11:13]

Overcoming Inertia and Building Momentum (21:55 - 26:46)

Jon and Becky introduce the theme of motion, discussing how organizations often struggle with inertia due to fear, perfectionism, and an abundance of choices. Seth advises creating conditions that foster generative actions, stressing the importance of enrolling passionate individuals who are ready to embrace change.

Key Points:

• Inertia in Nonprofits: Identifies common barriers like fear of failure and perfectionism that hinder progress.
• Smallest Viable Audience: Advocates starting with a core group of dedicated individuals to build a sustainable movement.
• Selective Inclusion: Recommends involving only those who are committed to the strategic vision, allowing others to disengage without resistance.

Notable Quote:

Seth Godin: "If you can’t get 10 people to come back tomorrow, don’t keep trying to make it bigger because they’re not even." [23:42]

Addressing Imposter Syndrome and Embracing Discomfort (26:46 - 37:50)

Seth delves into the psychological challenges faced by nonprofit leaders, particularly imposter syndrome and the discomfort associated with pioneering new strategies. He underscores the inevitability of failures and the importance of pushing through uncertainty to achieve meaningful impact.

Key Points:

• Imposter Syndrome: Recognizes it as a universal feeling among leaders engaged in significant work, transforming it into a sign of importance.
• Embracing Discomfort: Encourages leaders to act despite uncertainty, likening it to a lifeguard saving a child rather than comparing oneself to others.
• Generosity and Connection: Highlights the power of small, empathetic actions in building strong, connected communities.

Notable Quotes:

Seth Godin: "Everyone doing important work will feel like an imposter because they’re doing something that hasn't been done before." [24:17]

Seth Godin: "The ocean is made of drops. [...] We get to make more drops." [33:16]

Conclusion and Call to Action (37:50 - End)

The episode concludes with heartfelt acknowledgments and a collective call to action. Becky and Jon reinforce the necessity of creativity, empathy, and boldness in driving movements. Seth leaves listeners with a powerful reminder to continue making impactful changes, no matter how small, emphasizing that every drop contributes to the ocean of change.

Key Points:

• Community and Support: Acknowledges ecosystem partners and the importance of collective effort in driving change.
• Boldness and Creativity: Urges nonprofit professionals to be bold, embrace tension, and continuously innovate.
• Empathy and Connection: Reinforces that genuine connections and empathetic actions are the bedrock of sustainable movements.

Notable Quote:

Seth Godin: "Keep making this ruckus." [37:50]

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Final Thoughts:

This episode serves as a profound guide for nonprofit leaders and professionals aiming to ignite and sustain meaningful movements. Seth Godin's insights challenge conventional strategies, urging a shift towards adaptable, empathetic, and bold approaches. By embracing discomfort, fostering genuine connections, and maintaining a clear vision, nonprofits can navigate the complexities of today's world to drive impactful change.

Transcript

[Becky]

Our missions are made to move, to create change in the power of community. But change doesn't happen when we sit still.

[John]

Hey, I'm John.

[Becky]

And I'm Becky.

[John]

Welcome to Making a Movement, a five part limited series from We Are For Good. This series is all about unlocking movement in your mission. We're weaving together the stories and lessons that have stuck with us from the movement builders, dreamers and doers who we've gotten to meet along the way.

[Becky]

It's time to take that initial spark. Activity activated. And watch your movement take flight. We're so glad you're here. Let's get started.

[John]

Becky. Oh my gosh. Right?

[Becky]

Seth's here. Our heartwired friend, Seth. We're so excited.

[John]

Seth Godin is in the house for another time. He is one of the world's most influential business thinkers, best selling authors who's honestly forever changed the way that we think about marketing leadership and work. And I want to say, Seth, I don't know if you've heard this, but I feel like we manifested this friendship with you because we went back in the archives and episode 144, which was hundreds of episodes ago, Becky and I are casually talking about brand and marketing and we quote you. And one of us off the cuff is like, we don't know Seth, but we hope that someday we will. And now I'm so glad.

[Becky]

Come be our friend, Seth. And Seth is our friend. And he is just as lovely as we always knew he would be.

[John]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

You know, you raise the bar, you make my day better every time we talk.

[John]

Well, I mean, you've even launched another book since the last time we've had you on the podcast. But you probably know many of his international best sellers, from Purple Cow to Tribes to Linchpin. The Practice, which is my personal favorite, but this is Strategy, is his most recent, which is a powerful guide to thinking strategically in this crazy world that we're living in right now. So I could go on and on about Seth and all the beautiful projects, including the Carbon Almanac, which I see behind you right now, my friend. If you haven't poured into this, like, dig into this work, talk about a movement, talk about community pouring into a project and bringing it to life. The Carbon Almanac, not just the content, but the story of how it came to be, is what we're talking about today in such a true sense. Because today we're talking about a new series called Making a Movement is what we're calling it where we want to really unpack how missions not only get Unstuck, but move forward with others, with the people that want to bring change into the world together. And when we think about movement building and how we've been wired and in our minds, Seth has been in our brains and in our hearts for a long time. And so we couldn't imagine kicking off this series without bringing the legend himself into the space and setting some tone for this conversation. So, Seth, to have you back in the podcast means the world. We are so happy to see you.

[Seth Godin]

Thank you, John. It's always a delight. Where shall we begin?

[John]

Okay, this is good. I mean, I do want to talk about this strategy, because I feel like you were teeing us up for this with your book.

[Becky]

He literally was teeing us up before this was even in our brains. Like, just set just knows.

[Seth Godin]

I don't know. I'm sometimes trying to provoke, you know.

[Becky]

I think, are you troublemaker?

[Seth Godin]

I want to start, though, with the conversation before the conversation. If you studied for the bar exam in the 1980s or 90s or 2000s in New York, it's quite possible you took PPER, and the way Pieper worked, it cost thousands of dollars. And you would go to a huge lecture hall, 602,000 people, and Pieper, Mr. Pieper himself would get up in the front and he would lecture to you. And all of these wannabe lawyers were sitting there with their books, writing down every single word he said. Just. He was dictating. And this went on for eight hours a day for days and days and days. And every once in a while, he would say, not for your notes. And then everyone would just drop their pencil and he would tell an interesting, useful story that no one listened to. And then he would go back to notes and they would all write it down. This is a vivid portrayal of the indoctrination of the educational industrial complex of tasks of show me the best practice, and I'll do exactly that because it will make my boss happy. So when we see, for example, in the nonprofit world, people starting to use SMS to do fundraising, all of a sudden everyone's doing it exactly the same way, with no understanding of strategy, no understanding of why they're doing it. So if we're going to talk about building a movement and you've got your pencils ready to write down every step, it's not going to work. What we have to do is have the conversation before the conversation. You have to talk about what would it be like for you to be an impresario, a maker of movement, somebody who takes initiative, who makes things that Might not work. That shift is required if you're going.

[Becky]

To build a movement right out of the gate. There you go. I mean, I think that is such great tone setting. I mean, you talk about the conversation before. The conversation. We talk about start at step zero, not step one. And it's this interrogation of yourself and asking these bigger questions. It's not looking around at what everybody else is doing, because you yourself, you as an individual, you as a mission, are unique. Whatever it is about you, there is nuance to it that cannot be replicated. And the nuance is why people love you. And so I want to talk about the continuation of this conversation because you kind of tease it a little bit. And this is strategy, because it opens by saying that repeating yesterday isn't. It isn't a way forward at all. And so this notion that we've talked about is like, if you. If you have that same old tired narrative that you've had for your organization, your elevator speech, and it hasn't changed in 40 years, 20 years, 10 years, two years. I mean, think about the world five years ago. It is totally different. And so, so many missions just get stuck doing just that. And I want to know, why do you think so many of us just default to the familiar? And what is that cost of repeating instead of moving?

[Seth Godin]

Defaulting to the familiar is a great expression. I am glad that brain surgeons default to the familiar.

[Becky]

Same.

[Seth Godin]

They don't want to start making stuff up in the middle of an operation. Right. And so we're. It's sort of built in. If you're doing something important, to do it the same way you did it yesterday. The question is, what's important? Is it important that they make the french fries the same way at McDonald's today that they did yesterday? Well, yeah. It's sort of built into their brand promise. And when we talk about fighting the spread of tuberculosis, when we talk about writing racial inequity, when we talk about helping someone who is ill, it feels really important. It is important. However, it's not McDonald's for a very big reason. McDonald's has solved the french fry problem. Their job is to make it just the way they made it yesterday. But your nonprofit has not solved its problem. If it did, you could shut down. So we have to show up acknowledging the fact that we did our best yesterday to solve this problem, and it wasn't enough. So if we do what we did yesterday, we're not going to get more than we got yesterday. That the very nature of being a nonprofit. The reason you get the tax break is because you're doing something that might not work, because you're solving a problem that hasn't been solved yet. And we have to do that by trying new ways to solve it, not by simply showing up again.

[John]

I mean, Seth, every time you come in the house, I feel like you shift the paradigms that our sector has defaulted to. I'll use the word default again. And the reframe of that. It's not solved yet. So we have to keep evolving. And iterating is empowering too, that we don't have to keep doing the same old playbook over and over again. So we're kind of obsessed right now with this idea of motion. And we took, you know, the Time for Impact up our last gathering in April. We're just reacting to everything shifting in the world. And the theme that bubbled up was Hold Fast, which was about rooting to our values and, like, standing strong with that piece. But coming out of it now in July, we can't stand still. Like, we never intended to be static. And our concept that we really wanted to lift is this idea of movement. Less of just like the broad creating a movement like we talk about all the time, but also just like the motion piece of like, not sitting still. How do you see motion as, like, integrated into strategy today?

[Seth Godin]

I think we need to divide a couple things out. You shouldn't be changing your values very often. Yeah. And sticking with your values. What people expect from you, the promise you make, that's important, essential. The question is, what are the tactics that will support those values? So I'll give you a silly, prosaic example. I went to the Frick. They just reopened after spending $4 billion to refurbish it. And it looks exactly like it looked 100 years ago. So they've decided that their brand promise and their brand value is it's like a museum because it's a museum. And what they missed was the people who are coming to the Frick aren't the people who were walking the earth 100 years ago or even 10 years ago. The people who are coming to the Frick are coming from a different media world, from a different experience world. And if there's no bridge between the outside and when you get in there, it's not just jarring, it's flat. It doesn't work the way it could because they didn't design something that honored their values and their brand, but with different tactics. And so when I think about strategy, strategy is not tactics. Tactics are the things we do every day to support the longer arc. But if you are trying to make a library that's vibrant, if you are trying to raise another hundred million dollars for research on Throckmorton's toe, you're going to have to change stuff because the world changed with or without you. Now what are you going to do about it? So we go back to why we're here in the first place. Those are our values. And we say, given the way the world is and given why we're here in the first place now, what's our modern strategy? What's our philosophy of becoming based on this world we are in now?

[Becky]

I just think it's such an important question. And I also think just accepting and not accepting, because I think it's hard for nonprofits to get inertia sometime. And I say that as someone who was in it for 20 years to get movement, feels like you're sludging through so much because there are so many things ahead of you. But I do think that what you're saying has such resonance because it can't be just about the values. It can't just be about the history. It has to be modernized and contextualized in the today. Can people today see themselves in the organization, in the values, in the outputs, in the tasks, in the strategy? And so I wonder if you could, like, break down the anatomy of, like, momentum for us. What actually sustains motion versus sparks it.

[Seth Godin]

So let's agree that if the organization has more than three people in it, they should not all be involved in your strategy conversation. That the fewer people who are in a strategy conversation, the better. Because strategy isn't obvious and it's not democratic. Strategy is a point of view. So it would be a mistake for Tim Cook to send a memo to the 40,000 people who work at Apple and say, what do you think we should do for our next 10 years? Well, if you are in a nonprofit that is any scale whatsoever, most of the people who joined joined to sign up for a job where they were proud of what they did and where someone told them what to do so they could feel like they were doing a good job. And you owe those people who you hired under those pretenses, Emmanuel, you owe them a method. It's not their job to change those things in their head. But the people who we're going to dance with about these shifts need to be enrolled in the journey. They need to be ready to ask the question about, what is this for? If they're not, they should be excused from the room. Let Them go out for an ice cream cone. It's fine. There's no. You don't lose points for that. But if you're going to be in the room. We didn't invite you in the room to defend the status quo. So two stories to go with this. And I know I'm ranting, but I always ran with you guys. Story number one, which I talk about in the strategy book. When Reed and Ted at Netflix decided that DVDs weren't their future, that if they didn't build streaming, someone else was going to build streaming, they made a critical decision. Now, remember, in this moment, 100% of their income came from DVDs. 100%. They started a task force to build the streaming business, and they did not invite one person from the DVD team to join them. They weren't allowed in the room because all the DVD people would be doing is defending the DVD business, which was pretty easy to defend. It was 100% of their income. So you got to figure out who's in the room. So I was talking to the president of a pretty big library last week, and the question is, what's the library for? How many people at that institution are ready to have a conversation about what's the library for? Are they there to defend the stacks? To defend the books that no one takes out? To defend the fact that DVDs have gone from 35% of their rental to zero? Because if you're going to defend what the library used to be in the face of AI, you might as well just shut down the library. This is the moment for libraries to become magical again. But it's only going to happen if people are enrolled in the journey of let's talk about what the library is even for Seth.

[John]

Okay, I'm here for all of your rants. This could just be a daily rant from Seth, which is maybe it's kind of your blog in some ways.

[Becky]

And the stories are so good. Can I tell you how happy I used to be when I would go out to my mailbox and I would see the red envelope, the Netflix envelope, because it meant my DVD had arrived. I remember that switch.

[John]

I brought them to work to return them. I don't know if it's like the inbox was easier. I remember you showing up to the office with your returns.

[Seth Godin]

Like, I don't know why.

[Becky]

My mailbox was down the street. I had a communal mailbox. It was much easier to just take it to the office and drop it in the mail. But it's really iconic to Think about that strategy in that sense, because it was so big in the moment. My entire family had that subscription service. We had an integration and a talk. When we got our DVDs, again, it was communal. And so the switch is really, really fascinating. I think that story is great.

[John]

And I think of, like, the other factors that would, like, hold us back or do hold us back. Because there's fear, I think for me personally is like, perfectionism, like wanting things to be a certain way before you publish or put it out there or honestly, just like, even too many options of like, we could zig and zag and abc. This chokes momentum, clearly. How do you think about those things? How do you move past some of those limitations?

[Seth Godin]

So everyone's doing their best and everyone means well by their own definition. So again, it's about creating the conditions for this generative thing to happen. Google invented LLMs, pretty much AI stuff. So why doesn't anyone use their stuff? Why do we use Claude and ChatGPT? Because Google didn't want to release it. Why didn't Google want to release it? Because almost all their income comes from search and it destroys search. So everyone at Google was doing their best, but they were part of a bigger system that didn't care what Google wanted. And the same thing is true for your nonprofit, that when you say, we're not going to have a gala anymore because of X, Y and Z, you are right to say that, and I agree with you. But when you say it to people who are on the hook for a certain kind of work and a certain kind of output, they're going to push back on you because they are afraid of walking away from what's known, even though it's suboptimal to do something that might fail. They didn't sign up for that kind of work. And so part of what it is to lead is to create the conditions where people do stuff they didn't sign up for, where they do stuff that causes tension because it's better than not doing it. But that doesn't mean they're going to be happy with it. It just means you've created the conditions for them to do it. And it's these moments of growth that are thrilling. That's what you signed up for as a leader. But if you're just going to wait for the whole team to cheer you on, you're going to be waiting forever. So I have another story about this. 25 years ago, 20 years ago, I got a call from the American Heart Association. Have I told you this story before?

[Becky]

No, but I want to hear it. Let's go.

[Seth Godin]

So they say, we want you to fly to Texas and give a talk to our top people about marketing and about how we can grow and we'll pay you to come. I said, you're a non profit. You can't pay me to come. But I'm not flying to Texas either. If you are, if you're in New York one day with half a dozen of your people, come to my office. We'll spend four hours together. So a friend of mine is a well known cardiologist and author, so I invited him along. And so I've got there in my office and we're all sitting there and they want to know how can they do what they're doing, but louder. And you know, how can they get families that have been impacted by heart disease to cough up extra money so they can raise more money. So, and I'm sitting with them and I say, what's the purpose of the American Heart Association? What are you here for? And they're like, we want to stamp out heart disease. It's one of the three biggest killers in the United States. I said, okay, that's cool. And what's the number one cause of heart disease? And they said, diet, particularly beef. And I said, you're absolutely right. So instead of trying to find new ways to raise money to find drugs to solve this problem, if I could just describe to you one thing you could do for free that would save half a million to a million lives a year for free, would you be interested in leading it? And they're like, of course we would. I said, I don't think you would because I don't think that's really what the American Heart association is for. I'm going to tell it to you. It's going to make you very uncomfortable and you're not going to do it. They said, no, no, we'll do it because there's a half a million lives at stake and it's free. I said, so it's simple. You remember Prince Spaghetti Day. If you're from Boston, you do. Prince Spaghetti Day is on Wednesday. They made it normal through advertising to serve pasta to your family without feeling like you're low status and you're doing it because it's cheap. It's Wednesday, you have to serve pasta. Like on Friday you serve fish. So I said, it's super simple. You work with all the networks. You've got institutions, corporations, marketers, and you announce that Monday is Eat no Meat day. That's it nationwide, in every cafeteria, in every restaurant, Eat no Meat Day. If you did that one thing, it would change everything in the dynamic of what you're trying to do. And like, well, we could never do that. The farmers would be mad at us, and these people would be mad at us. I say exactly because the purpose of the American Heart association is for no one to be mad at you. So now we understand why you're here.

[John]

To the mat. Yes.

[Seth Godin]

And so if you're serious about heart disease, go do things that are serious, even though they're uncomfortable and will cause tension. And if you're not up for that, then tell the truth and say, well, what we do here is we defend our jobs and we try to make it a nice day for everybody while doing work that makes us feel good because we're raising more money to give it to researchers, because that's what we did yesterday. So I'm not picking on the American Heart Association. I hope that we cure heart disease. I think it's just a useful metaphor for in times of radical change like this one. Why are we here? And do we care enough to fail along the way?

[Becky]

Because, as you said at the beginning, that's why we're here. And I just think something shifts internally when you can accept that 99 of these things that we're going to try are going to fail because we're piloting, we're. We're testing. And, you know, we talk about being bold. And for this sector, it's so hard sometimes for so many of us to be bold because we are not in a position of power. That's what we think. But we are. In fact, maybe we have the most power because we have trust, because we have heart in what we're doing, because we have what you have talked about with your sweet mother, authenticity and generosity. And the way that we show up, like the Lenore effect, I think the Nora Godin, God bless her, like, is. Is. It is a powerful thing. And so I want to talk about how we get over that hump and what happens when clarity catches. Like, because you talk about these leaps, like, doing things before you ever feel ready. What's one experiment that people could try today to prove that motion is possible within your mission? How can we be bold? How can we lean in to this radical modern movement? Because we know that the why that we're fighting for is so much more important than I'm pointing back now to making people upset. It is so much more worth fighting for the people on the front lines that we're Trying to change. So help us talk about what we could try to just get something unstuck today.

[John]

Yeah.

[Seth Godin]

So you're keying into stuff that was in my book, the Practice, about creativity. And many of the people listening to this don't think they're in a creative profession. They think that's what a writer does or a cinematographer. So here are a couple of takeaways. The first one, the hardest one, reassurance is futile. Everything is not going to be okay. Everything is not going to work. If someone tells you everything will be okay, they are just blowing smoke. Because if you are doing important work, something is not going to work the way you expect. So simply acknowledge that. Don't ask for someone to say, it's fine, you're off the hook. The thing that goes with that is imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome is real. It's not just afflicting women. It afflicts everybody. It's the feeling that you're a fake or a fraud. It's a feeling that it's not on you to do X, Y or Z. And people will tell you there are ways to get rid of imposter syndrome. I don't think so. I don't think so, because you're an imposter and so am I. That if you're doing important work, of course there's no guarantee. If you're doing important work that hasn't been done before, of course you're not authorized to do it because it's never been done before. So when we feel like an imposter, we have a chance to say thank you. Thanks for reminding me I'm doing something important. And so when I take those two ideas, I need to put them next to a picture of a hungry kid. I need to put them next to a picture of somebody who is looking for solace or a job or respect or dignity and doesn't have it. And I would say, is it worth it for you to be mildly uncomfortable dealing with the tension of it might not work? And dealing with the tension of being an imposter in the face of the fact that it might make a difference for them? And the way I remind myself, this is the whole lifeguard thing. If you're on the dock of TP Lake and there are six staff around the swim dock and a kid starts struggling as he's swimming and the kid's right in front of you, do you say to yourself, well, there are at least three other people on this dock who did better at their Bronze Cross than me. There are at least three other people on this dock who are better at saving people's lives than me. Or do you just grab the kid? I think we would all just grab the kid.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Seth Godin]

And the thing that we learn from, you know, all of those philosophical experiments is if the kid's right in front of you, you get your shoes dirty and you save the kid. Well, that's what we're asking you to do. We're saying to you, if this nonprofit was important enough for you to spend years of your life building it, it's important enough for you to do things that make you uncomfortable.

[John]

Hey, friends, here's a bit of real talk. This movement doesn't happen without community. And that includes our incredible ecosystem partners.

[Becky]

Big gratitude to give butter, RKD group donor doc, feather whiteboard, and so on. These aren't just sponsors. They're mission driven allies showing up to fuel change alongside us.

[John]

Their support helps bring you the free tools, education keynotes and summits because they believe, like we do, that investing in people is what powers real impact.

[Becky]

So if you're searching for a new CRM tech tool, maybe a brand partner, direct mail partner, or even an impact strategist, we'd love for you to start with our trusted recs. We vetted them so you don't have to.

[John]

You want to learn more, head over to weareforgood.com Rex that's weareforgood.com for VIP access to orgs and amazing humans. Doing really great work.

[Becky]

I love you so much. Like, I sorry I have a lot of emotion going on right now, but it truly, it chokes me up to think that you would look at imposter syndrome and just say thank you, you know, because I'm doing radical and hard things. I hope you who are listening right now feel the exhale of that and the gratitude of you trying hard things and understanding. We're all messing up. We are all wandering this wilderness right now together. But there is so much joy and connectedness here to be unlocked. And our friend Seth just gave us like a little cushion and a warm hug that tells us it's going to be okay and that we're not alone. That feels really good to me.

[Seth Godin]

Thank you, Becky.

[John]

And I mean, just thinking of the listeners, I see the faces of so many people in our community that are tuning into this right now. This is like, what an opportunity in front of us. What a calling that we get to be the sparks to maybe bring more people along in these journeys and these missions and these actually solving the problems, not talking about the problems forever. So, Seth, as we're kind of leading into, like, these next few episodes where we're talking about, okay, mobilizing and organizing and optimizing and helping people find their voice and vision, could you give us a charge of, like, an attaboy moment of, like, the journey ahead? I think your book, the Practice. I'm going to go ahead and plug this again because all of us are showing up. And for me, it feels like a lump in my stomach before I hit send on things, I struggle with tension. Becky knows this well because we talk about this a lot, but there's so many practical applications through your teaching of the practice of just keep on going. And you live this out with a blog that's been published daily for how many years now? 20 years for a plus.

[Becky]

So good.

[John]

So what's kind of a charge to those that are wanting to start something that are kind of on the precipice of this? What would you say to them?

[Seth Godin]

Let's use another example. I think everyone listening to this knows at least one person whose life was changed fundamentally by Alcoholics Anonymous. And dollar for dollar, there's probably no more efficient nonprofit in history. And the question I would ask is, how many people belong to Alcoholics Anonymous in year one? And the answer might be 20, right? And that is the essence of what it is to have a movement. If you can't get 10 people to come back tomorrow, don't keep trying to make it bigger because they're not even. You got to pick whichever 10 people you want to start with. Start with whatever 10 people you want, and if they don't come back tomorrow, make something better. That's the secret. The smallest viable audience. Every single movement, big or small, that has succeeded started with 10 or fewer people, every single one of them. So keep coming back to the smallest viable audience. How do I find the right people? And if someone doesn't get the joke, let them go out for an ice cream cone. It's not for them. But if the right people are in the room because you're the adjudicator of status, they want to be in the room because you picked them. If you create the scenario where they want to embrace the tension and come back tomorrow and bring a friend, now you have the basis of a movement.

[Becky]

Embrace the tension. Bring a friend. I just feel this, like, clarion call in this moment. It is a rejection of the status quo. We are here creatives. I did not say nonprofit professionals. I did not say impact people. I'm telling all of you, it is Our time creatives to rise up, to be bold, to embrace the tension, and to bring a friend. I mean, John, as us telling that. I'm thinking of so many friends in this community. I think of who started that way. We have a friend in the community who hosted the first Black Lives Matter movement in her home. And it was just, you know, like 10 people, invisible children, same scenario. Like, there's. There's just everything starts that way. So understand this is one step, and we're waiting on you to be bold and to take it. So, Seth, love you. Not just for your brain, but for. I think the thing that powers your brain is your heart more than anything. And you're such a beautiful storyteller. I love every single time you come in here and you visit. You know, we're gonna wrap a little bit with a story of generosity that has stayed with you. And you have left some doozies in our wake in the past. You remember all of us crying in the last one.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do that one, but go ahead.

[Becky]

Yeah, no, no, we're not gonna make you tell that one again. But. But I just think you have this incredible privilege of sitting at the nexus of so many things, and you get to see everything. And I want to know, when you see that spark of generosity, of philanthropy, of joy, what's one of those moments that just took your breath away?

[Seth Godin]

There's a word called sonder, and it describes the moment that you realize that other people also have a noise in their head, not that different than your noise. If you're feeling disconnected or lonely or left behind or unappreciated, other people probably are too. And the thing that takes my breath away isn't the dramatic, Nobel Prize winning, super risky thing. The thing that takes my breath away, which I see all the time, is when someone sees in someone else a chance to connect and be able to say, I see you. I care about you, to invite that person along, even in the tiniest way. It's not risky. It's just scary. Risky implies that you could fail and it would hurt you. Scary is you could fail and you would be bummed out, but it wouldn't undermine anything else you're doing. And so when I see a fancy boss take just an extra second to acknowledge something, or when I see I'm remembering the person who ran a tiny spiritual community in a little village in India that I was in, he had bought a solar lantern, one of the first solar lanterns in the village. And I Said to him, what's it for? What do you. Do you have magazines you're reading at night? Like, what do you. You have no kids. What are you buying this for? And he said, the 10 of us sit at night in front of my cabin, my house, and this will give us something to talk about. It will give us something to look at and wonder about. And he was in the business of creating wonder, of weaving together a community of people. And it wasn't dramatic. It was as prosaic and simple as you could imagine. That's enough. That the ocean is made of drops. And it's super easy to get upset at the state of whatever ocean you're looking at, but we get to make more drops. And those drops always involve another human being who is seen by us, who is not reassured, but who has a light turned on and decides to enroll in our journey together. And so I guess the conclusion is where we come out with empathy. When Dorothy went to talk to the Tin man and the lion and the Scarecrow, she did not say, I really want to get back to Kansas. Will you help me? She said, the wizard might be able to help you, too. Do you want to come? And that's the secret to the whole thing. Do you want to come?

[John]

I'm leaving this pause in here for. Not drama for a moment to sit with that because so much has been thrown at all of us this year, and that's just in the context of the United States. And you think of the global level at the. At the pain.

[Becky]

So good.

[John]

But this is irrefutable, the human to human, helping one person. We can all do that and do that actually in the next 10 minutes. And thank you for bringing us back to that place, my friend.

[Seth Godin]

I love you both. Thank you for doing this work.

[Becky]

I love you, too.

[John]

Love you, too.

[Becky]

I just think about this conversation we had with Jeff Schuck earlier this year with one of our trends. The world does need your light. And I want to reiterate this to you. Like, what if the world was waiting for you to wake up and realize that you matter?

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Becky]

And that there is so much going on and there is so much to tackle, and the tasks that you talk about are many. However, you know, you don't have to play every part. You just have to play your part. So thank you, Seth, for coming in, for putting some empathy around this strategy, because I do think empathy is such a key component of it. And thank you for loving this community. Thank you for loving us and others so well and sharing what you have all the time. You are walking generosity. And that is why we love you.

[Seth Godin]

Thank you both. Keep making this ruckus.