← We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits
We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits
668. Merge to Multiply: How a Purposeful Sunset Expanded Community Impact - Desiree Lyons, Namaste Direct + Kate Flatley, Women's Justice Initiative
00:36:53
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- [00:02]
A
It was certainly the most challenging moment of my career.
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B
In a sector that often equates success with scale, today's conversation challenges one of our deepest assumptions and asks what it really looks like to put community at the center, even when it means changing or ending your own model.
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A
Sunsetting is certainly not failure. It is responsibility. It's integrity. It's mission over ego.
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C
Hey, I'm John.
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B
And I'm Becky.
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C
And this is the We Here for Good podcast.
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B
Let's get started. Welcome, everybody. You've got a solo host today, and we have two women on the show today who are taking this concept that we have been talking about, which is to merge is really to multiply. And we're reframing mergers as a powerful unlock for the entire sector. And man, do we have an incredible case study today. So today I am joined by Desiree Lyons. She's the CEO of Namaste Direct. And Kate Flatley, she is executive director of the Women's Justice Initiative. And together, these two organizations are centering community to evolve, both themselves as organizations, but really putting what their beneficiary needs at the front line. So today we're going to be talking about how Namaste Direct's purposeful sunset really helped them transition their program to WJI for this expanded impact. And today we're gonna talk about when they knew it was time to evolve, like, how they knew how to sunset with integrity and what it really takes to merge a program in a way that protects and accelerates impact for the communities they serve. So, friends, we are so glad you're here. Welcome to the We Are For Good podcast.
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A
Thank you so much, Becky.
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D
Thank you, Becky. It's great to be here.
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B
We are coming from different continents, and we have got to explore that. And before we get into it, we have to know who you are, and we want to know why you chose to do this work. So, Desiree, I'm going to start with you. Like, tell us where you grew up and what led you to this work.
- [02:21]
A
Sure, sure. So I grew up in Southern California, and I had the huge privilege when I was about 19 years old, I was attending a community college. I was pretty directionless. I had an opportunity to attend a Semester at Sea program where we studied on a ship that went to different countries around the world. It happened, actually, during September 11th. It was. It was fascinating. And it was on that trip that I had an opportunity to see the world beyond my privileged Southern California bubble and really fell in love with the world of cultural anthropology. Women's empowerment always really seemed like one of the most urgent needs around the world. And I eventually moved on. Through my career I worked at various international nonprofit organizations. And when I learned about Namaste Direct's in Guatemala, I just instantly fell in love with the mission and the whole ethos of the organization. I had a heart connection to Guatemala also. So it was really exciting for me to be here. And I'm looking forward to telling you more about the organization as we go on, but that's sort of my, my background.
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B
What an amazing way to see the world and just get this new perspective. And so just 10 minutes down the street from you in Guatemala is Kate. So, hi, welcome to the podcast. Tell us a little bit about your story.
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D
Hi Becky. Thank you so much. It's such an honor to be here. So I, I grew up in, in the United States and Connecticut and have spent my career working for social justice and women's rights. I started out of college. I was, I was really fortunate to get a job working for a foundation and really had the opportunity to do so much learning through the mentorship of other women and the opportunity to travel abroad, internationally and learn about international development. And through that experience, I really wanted to gain some experience closer to the ground working for a community based organization. And I ended up moving to Guatemala in 2005 and thought I would be here for maybe a year and ended up staying. I returned to the US for law school. I really believe in the transformative power of the law in terms of creating good and protecting women's rights and human rights. So I went back to law school and focused on international human rights law and then returned to Guatemala and I've been living here since. So this is really home. And I feel so fortunate to live here and be a part of this incredible community.
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B
I want our listeners to understand the heart of each of your organizations. So Kate, I think I'm going to start with you first. I mean, tell us a little bit about WJI and give us the 10,000 foot view.
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D
Absolutely. So the Women's Justice Initiative is driven by a vision to build brighter futures for women and girls. Guatemala faces extremely high rates of violence against women and girls. 48% of Guatemalan women will experience violence in their lives. And 40% of indigenous girls are married before they turn 18. So WJI focuses on addressing these challenges by improving the lives of indigenous women and girls through rights education, access to legal services and gender based violence prevention and response programs in rural communities. And we really envision a world where women and girls live a life free from violence. Have the tools and opportunities to become leaders and change makers. From the start, our work has been grounded in the belief that when women know their rights and can access justice, they can transform their lives, their families and their communities. I'm proud to say that over the past 13 years, WJI has achieved significant impact. Our team of 50, over 80% of whom are indigenous, work in more than 120 communities. Over 16,000 women and girls have participated in our programs and we've reached more than 60,000 direct beneficiaries. And I think it's important to mention that a key part of our approach is meeting women and girls where they are. So we bring services directly to their communities, offering our programming in Kachiquel, the local language in the region where we work. And collaboration and partnership has always been a core value of WJI since the outset. It's in fact one of our three pillars in our current strategic plan, which focuses on sharing our legal empowerment methodology with other organizations to build a regional response to gender based violence. And over the past four years, we've shared our methodology with 76 community based organizations across Guatemala, Honduras and southern Mexico.
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B
I mean, Kate, wow. As a mom of two daughters, like, I just want to thank you on behalf of young girls everywhere for you and the team. That 48% stat is shocking. Desiree cannot wait to hear how Namaste Direct is complimentary to wji.
- [07:26]
A
Well, Namaste's mission is to empower economically vulnerable Guatemalan women to grow profitable businesses, achieve economic security and pursue their dreams. Some important context here is that more than half the population, the most recent statistic is 56% of the population lives in poverty. And that number is definitely higher in indigenous communities and rural communities. And more than 80% of working Guatemalan women start small informal businesses out of necessity to support themselves because there are so few traditional employment opportunities. And so they do this work without any sort of safety net or much financial literacy training. And they have tremendous, tremendous challenges accessing fair capital. And so Namaste was really developed. In 2008. We were founded by a wonderful man named Bob Graham, who was a pioneer of microfinance in the 1980s. And he took his lessons learned from 25 years of running a very successful global microfinance institution and wanted to distill that here in Guatemala. He knew that in order to really make a meaningful difference in somebody's life who is living in poverty, a loan is not going to do that on its own. If you give somebody a loan who they're living in poverty, but they don't have any guidance or financial literacy, they will often end up in a worse position than they were before they took out the loan. And so that really informed our entire program design. You know, we work specifically with women who our entrepreneurs, we match them with a business advisor. We provide financial literacy training and fair access to capital. And similar to wji, one of our core values is that our team, aside from myself, are all Guatemalan, from the communities that we serve. And that makes a huge difference in terms of establishing trust in the communities. Also, we're very relationship focused. As I mentioned at the beginning, one of the aspects of our mission is helping women pursue their dreams. And that's something that we take really seriously. Because when you're living in poverty and very much in survival mode, there is so little space to reflect on what your dreams are as a woman. And by really establishing trust and focusing on the relationship with each woman that we serve, were really able to provide practical, tangible skills to help her advance towards pursuing those dreams. Finally, similar to wji, we also firmly believe that economic empowerment is a piece of the bigger puzzle of women's economic empowerment. And collaboration is essential to lifting women up. And so we're so excited to be talking today about this amazing synergy with women's justice and what's going to happen next.
- [10:55]
B
You are transitioning me so well, but I have to emote a little bit about the power of these microfinance loans. We've had several conversations on the podcast about what happens when you can seed a woman's business. We've done it with the Adventure project with Kiva Akam Winhu in Uganda. I think even Amani Collective in Kenya has these beautiful microfinance loans. And I want to thank you for the way you stand in the gap for women so that they can dream. And so, Desiree, what were the women telling you that sparked sort of this forward momentum of. I think we're going to shift a little bit.
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A
Well, I want to start by saying, you know, namaste. Had about 15 years of experience of a lot of success with the microfinance model, and I am really proud of the organization's integrity. We've always been very much focused, as I mentioned, on. On the guidance to make sure that the women are in a better position after participating than prior. But in. In 2022, we found ourselves at sort of a turning point where we weren't really growing as an organization, and it caused us to embark on the strategic plan and sort of look at all of these different factors. And one of the first things that I saw, I relocated to Guatemala in 2022 from San Francisco was a, that we had a much higher default rate on loans than many of the other microfinance institutions here in Guatemala were reporting. And I was like, are we doing something wrong here? What's happening? I learned that it is common practice for many MFIs just to simply give people another loan and refinance if somebody defaults, which is a contributor to a really troubling problem of debt. So with the rising default rate, we had to put more requirements in place for women to join our program. And one of those was a credit check. We wanted to make sure that women who were joining didn't have more than 30% of her income compromised by other debts and community references. And what we found was in 2022, more than 50% of the women who were applying for our loan were not qualifying because they had so much debt already. And it was so disheartening because these were women who were working so hard and really just getting trapped in these cycles of taking out one loan, or perhaps their husband borrowed money under their name. And then there has been an influx of loan sharks here in Guatemala that provide daily cash loans and really prey upon people living in poverty. The interest rates are exorbitant and almost impossible for, for people to get out of that. And I remember one of the first women that I met from Namaste's program when I joined the team. She had been with us for nearly seven years in our loan program. She was one of our superstars. She had a bakery, was one of like our shining examples. And suddenly she stopped repaying and stopped attending her business advising sessions. And she agreed to meet with me for lunch. And I asked her what had happened and she very tearfully explained this series of really heart wrenching events, that she needed a surgery, her brother had a moto accident. And what it revealed was there was no safety net, there was no savings. Her family members knew that she was receiving a loan, that she had money, and so she was the person that they would go to for help. And of course, how do you say no when somebody in your family is sick or, you know, needs something? It's a really relatable thing, right? But it's also one of our core things has always been this loan has to be used to invest in your business. But in summary, all of these events coalesced and she ended up borrowing money from a loan shark and she had to close her business because she was extorted. And ultimately she was unable to repay Namaste's loan. And that was the first story that I heard. And I. I have heard so many stories like that since then. That really caused us to pause and reflect. Okay, we're a women's economic empowerment organization. Does it really make sense for us to continue providing loans when the landscape is so saturated with debt and it's becoming more of a toxic survival mechanism? What else could we do that would be more empowering?
- [16:06]
B
I mean, I feel so deeply for this woman. And I have to say, I am so proud of you for understanding that this was like a red flag that was going up. That's like, we need to adapt. We need to evolve in some way. I think that there is this stigma attached to our sector about these deep pivots or about mergers or about not honoring the original mission intent. And the reality is that our communities evolve. The way that we live evolves, technology evolves, economics evolves. And if we're not evolving with it, we are not walking beside the people that we are serving. And so I just think that you all have sunset with such integrity and built, and you both talked about collaboration, which is absolutely key. What point did you begin to recognize that even with a strong program, the organization itself may not be sustainable long term? Like, take us into that process because I bet there's a lot of founders listening who would love to know what the AHA was for you.
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A
Well, it was. It was certainly the most challenging moment of my career. It was an interesting confluence of events. And as I mentioned earlier, I am not the founder. I was hired by the founder to sort of, well, initially as development director and then eventually stepped into the CEO role. And when we started embarking on our strategic plan in 2022, the key issues that we really grappled with were we had succession planning issue. Several of our poor leaders were going to retire within the next few years, and we needed to think about that. We had the programmatic growth issue of, you know, how. How could we get the organization to expand or deepen. We had an aging donor base. So we sort of explored a few different scenarios with our leadership team of should we grow, should we consider merging or do we look at what it would mean to sunset with integrity? And ultimately our leadership team said, let's try and grow. And amazingly, we were able to do that for a couple of years with the koochie ball match. And the results also, by the way, from that program just knocked our socks off. I mean, it was. We were seeing 100% participation because you get the Women to save together. And then they rotate who receives the lump sum every month while they're participating in the education classes together, and they're talking about their goals and their dreams together, encouraging one another, building trust. Then if they all participate fully at the end of that cycle, there is a financial match to match their savings. And so the program is designed to just last for two six month cycles. So it's not meant to create a sense of dependency. It's meant to help them establish this habit and build this trust with each other and then continue doing it on their own without our intervention. And so it was going really well. And then in early 2025, we started having some conversations again with our board about the financial landscape. And building a successful new program is one thing, but it is not organizational sustainability. And we didn't have the financial Runway when we did the strategic plan in 2022 to start making those hires that we might need to do for the succession planning. And so we started talking about if we, if we did decide to wind things down, how much time would it take, what do we need to do to make sure that we have adequate funding to cover all of the women who are currently enrolled in our program and to be able to take care of our staff? You know, in Guatemala, there is a whole different set of requirements around employers and there is like a severance for staff members that is required by law. And we really wanted to make sure that we could handle all of that with integrity. And as we started looking at how long that process would take, it started to seem like the most responsible option, despite the fact that we had this new thing that was working so well.
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B
Right? It was working. Oh.
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A
And so it was, it was rough. There was a lot of internal conflict, a lot of sadness. And then as our board was voting on this, one of the things that gave me hope was what if we approach a mission aligned organization that has the capacity to take this program on, to take it further than we could? What if we could do that and they gave their blessing? Certainly go for it. And the first organization that came to mind was the Women's Justice Initiative. And I knew Kate personally and adore her, but truly, sincerely, the way that their program works and the clear need that it meets in Guatemala was so compelling to me. I mean, we had invited them in years past. We have an annual conference where we bring all of our clients together for a couple of days and we would invite staff from Women's Justice Initiative to come teach workshops to our clients about their legal rights. So many of the women that we have served over the years have struggled with intra familiar violence and have struggled with not having property in their name or trying to get a divorce and not having any idea that they were entitled to child support. There is such a huge correlation between women's economic empowerment and gender based violence. And so it seemed like such a natural fit. And at the same time, I did not have a whole lot of confidence that WJI would say yes. But it was sort of like, please.
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B
God, know that feeling in nonprofit.
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A
Oh my gosh.
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B
We're like, please, I can see the potential of this program. So Kate, like take this for this story from this place. And what happened when Namaste approached you and where did that sort of electric current just start to really sink between you two?
- [23:18]
C
Hey friend. Taking a quick pause to share about some of our amazing partners. Meet GiveButter, RKD Group Whiteboard and so on. These aren't just amazing partners for we are for good. They're value aligned allies who are fueling and growing the IMPACT uprising. And so of course we want you to know them. So if you are looking for a new CRM or a fundraising or marketing partner, maybe an impact strategist or a creative team, we'd love to make a warm introduction for you to one of our trusted partners. They happen to be powered by amazing humans too. You can check them out@weareforgood.com Rex that's weareforgood.com.
- [24:02]
D
You know, when, when Desiree first approached me, my initial reaction was shock and sadness because I have such respect for Namaste and the work they've done. They are doing such important work and have had such tremendous impact in Guatemala. So I was just very sad to think about the organization sunsetting. But also, I mean, I was just so honored that they would think of WJI As a founder of an organization. I really understand the weight of carrying forward Namaste's legacy and that's a great responsibility and such a privilege to be entrusted with that. And so I really took this very seriously from the start. You know, at the same time, I will say that the timing was challenging for us. WJI is in the midst of a very ambitious five year strategic strategic plan where we're planning to triple our impact by 2027. And our team, that's amazing. Our team has been working very hard to reach that goal. So when the opportunity came our way, I think, you know, it was a mix of excitement and also, honestly, some concern about taking on a new program at this exact moment. But you know, we saw and we have known and identified the importance of incorporating economic empowerment into our work. And so it really felt also like an opportunity that we couldn't pass up. Namaste is offering a proven methodology and an incredible curriculum. And Saving circles, you know, known as kuchubales in Guatemala, are very common. We even have a few kuchubales among staff in our office. It's something that people love to do. So the idea of taking something that already feels so familiar and is culturally relevant and pairing that with financial literacy and business advising, it felt like a program that would really resonate in communities and create meaningful impact in women's lives and not continue to create debt for these women, which, as Desiree mentioned, is such a significant issue here. And in terms of our alignment, from WJI's perspective, the alignment was clear right away. We work in gender based violence prevention and response, and we've seen how transformative economic security can be for women and their families, especially for survivors of violence. And over the past few years, WJI actually has been exploring how to integrate women's economic empowerment more intentionally into our programs. We have a community driven approach which focuses on increasing women's agency, their legal literacy, and their access to justice. But it also really focuses on creating community and connection among women and girls who are often living very isolated lives in rural communities. So what we love about the Kuchu Ball Match program is that it beautifully builds on that vision. You know, through Saving circles, women develop strong, sustainable networks of support. They build partnerships and allies in their communities. And we really see the combination of the economic and legal empowerment coupled with strengthened social networks as a very effective strategy to end violence against women and girls?
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B
I mean, Desiree, what advice would you give to nonprofit orgs who are considering a possible merge, a sunset, whatever that movement is, but they're really unsure where to begin. Where would you sort of point them as that first step?
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A
The first step is really to get back to the mission and what will be best for the community, the constituents, the work that we are doing. What will be best? It's not about your brand. It's not about your ego. You have to take, like, institutional survival kind of off the table for a minute and really think, okay, we have something that we know really works. I don't know how much longer we can do this. I don't know. I have confidence, but I don't know for sure that another funder is going to see the value in this and the amount of time that we need. But we cannot let this work die and really getting clear on that, which is hard, and then looking for mission alignment. And I mean, there are so many outstanding NGOs out there. And right now, as you say at the beginning of this podcast, you know, this is an unprecedented time for the nonprofit sector. We are facing so many new challenges. And what can we do? What kind of collaborations can we establish to make sure that all of the hard work and love and care that we've put into this can continue in some way or another? Be creative, be collaborative.
- [29:03]
B
We have a very technical term, and we are for good, for innovation. It's called try stuff. And it's like we really do want people to pilot, to try things, to not do the exact same thing that's always been done, because what's worked before is not going to get us to where we're going now. And I want to ask you both, and Kate, I'll start with you and then I'll move to Desiree. What would you want funders and nonprofit leaders to understand about merging, about sunsetting, you know, as a tool for long term impact, not as a sign of failure? What would you say either to a funder, to a donor? Kate, I would love to hear your perspective.
- [29:44]
D
No, thanks, Becky. And I love what you just said about trying stuff. I mean, I think just to tie that into this response, you know, WJI is really a learning organization, and we invest a lot in measuring impact and adjusting our work to respond to the needs of women and girls. And so we're really trying this and piloting it next year in 2026. And in practice, that means that we'll be reaching fewer women than Namaste has in the past with this program for the first year, so we can really try it out and test it and refine the model. And we really, you know, thinking about Namaste and also about supporters and funders, we really needed them to be comfortable with that approach and to understand that we were moving slower initially to then be able to confidently invest in growing the program in the future and being certain about the adaptation and the model and how it works in our context. And so I'd say for funders, I just want to emphasize that these transitions take time and they require real investment. When you do this responsibly, you need time and resources to be able to pilot, to transfer the knowledge from one institution to the other, and really to document this. So, you know, the results may not be immediate, but I think when organizations are supported to do this well, these transitions can really lead to stronger programs and Greater impact for the communities we serve.
- [31:11]
B
Kate, you're so right. I love how you said it. But I. I am encouraged by what I've heard from funders about understanding that when we try new things, when we pilot that, we just have a hypothesis. We don't know what's going to happen. It's a theory. And things will not go according to plan, and we're paying for those things as well. I think Rena Greifinger over at Maverick Capital talks about when they invest in projects, they invest in failure. That is what they have a mindset for. But they're also learning what does work. And those little nuggets of what does work really are building to bigger programs. So, Desiree, what about, in your experience, what would you say to funders or leaders?
- [31:55]
A
Well, I love what Kate said. And it has definitely been so much easier communicating with our donor base about what's happening, given WJI's amazing reputation and approach. Being so methodical and again, having so many values aligned with ours, I think really helps create that trust to make the jump from one organization to another. I would also say to funders that, and there have been some funders over the last few years since Namaste launched our strategic plan, that have made really important investments in making aspects of our program sustainable that will continue on. So I think having that lens of what can we do to invest in the sustainability of the impact of this project, like our educational videos, for example, that we've produced in the last few years, that we are now able to transition onto wji, you know, and they're publicly available and they're available in Kachikel. Donors have invested in those types of initiatives that make the work impactful long beyond the organization's lifespan.
- [33:17]
B
I mean, you both are playing the long game. And I just have to think that you've carried the ball this far, WJI picking it up and running with it. And I can imagine the generations of girls who will benefit from this pivot, this merger, this reimagining will be many and will be mighty. And I want to thank you both for your courage. I want to thank you for your honesty, because this is not like going to Disneyland when you're going through a process like this. And so I want to thank you for taking us along on the high and the low and everything in between. And we're going to be watching it with so much joy and hope and rooting it on mightily because this is the kind of program we want to have in the world. And I just congratulate you two extraordinary leaders for coming together and doing something so impactful. So we end our podcast asking all of our guests for their one good thing. And this could be a piece of advice. It could be maybe a quote or something that's bubbling up for you. Kate, I'm going to start with you. What's your one good thing? You would leave with our audience today? Sure.
- [34:34]
D
I mean, I think this story of transition is about looking for increased impact. And by incorporating this program, we're strengthening our organization and better responding to the needs of the women we serve. And through that, hopefully, we're helping them achieve greater agency and live free from violence.
- [34:53]
B
What about you, Desiree? What's your one good thing?
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A
I think all of us in the nonprofit sector are drawn to this work because we want to make an impact. We want to make a difference. And I think my one good thing is staying focused on the people and the communities that you're serving and being willing to adapt and pivot when necessary to make sure that the work is still having the intended outcome. And everything will work out from there, I believe.
- [35:29]
B
I mean, hope is the underlying current of why we are in this work. And so I feel that deeply. Tell us how people can connect with you. I know there are many people who are going to be listening to this story, and they're going to want to maybe invest and make a gift to the organization. So give us the links to the orgs and then let people know where you all hang out online and how they can connect with you. Desiree, I'll start with you.
- [35:55]
A
Yeah, well, so Namaste's. Our website is still live. We'll have that up for a while now if you would like to learn more. But certainly encourage everyone to go check out WJI as they'll be implementing everything. But for me Personally, I mean, LinkedIn is always a great place to find each other. And, yeah, I would love to stay in communication with anybody who finds this interesting.
- [36:22]
B
Incredible. What about you, Kate?
- [36:25]
D
Yeah, well, you can follow women's justice on social media. We're on Instagram or LinkedIn. And also you can also find me on. On LinkedIn. And if you'd like to go to our website and subscribe to our monthly newsletter, that's also a great way to keep up with our work.
- [36:40]
B
Ladies, your missions are beautiful. Your hearts are even more beautiful. Keep going with your beautiful work. It's just extraordinary and the world needs it.
- [36:50]
A
Thank you, Becky.
- [36:51]
D
Thank you for sharing this story.