← We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits
We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits
671. Shift 1 — Metrics With Meaning: Make Better Decisions With Less Noise - Ori Carmel
00:33:46
Loading summary
Transcript53 lines
- [00:05]
A
That's the moment that we're at. A lot of organizations are really struggling. Budgeting and funding sources are tightening. There's political pressures, economic pressures, social pressures. So the importance of decisions is magnified. It can really, you know, sometimes make or break an organization's year or even their entire existence.
- [00:26]
B
Welcome back, y', all, and welcome to the 12 Shifts. We are so excited to be building a conversation that we honestly started last year around the idea of defining impact measurement. We all know we got more tools than ever, but yet we feel so dang stuck when it comes to making real decisions. So today we are naming the shift from more data to metrics with meaning. Meaning that we're moving away from performative reporting and toward measurement that actually shapes decisions. And of course, we're not going to want to unpack a topic like this without our friend and partner, Ori Carmel. You know him already, likely. He's the founder and CEO of so in. And for more than two decades, he's worked at the intersection of nonprofits, government, academia, and the private sector. His work blends decision science with technology and economics, and he overlays that with leadership to just help organizations move from data overload into clarity. He is obsessed with impact that actually drives action, and he has helped us get unstuck massively. Orey, welcome back to the show. Good to see you.
- [01:24]
A
Hey, guys. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
- [01:27]
C
And he loves Pearl Jam. Can we put that in there? I need to make sure this is the show notes because he is such a classic Gen Xer with great meat.
- [01:35]
A
Oh, my God. Did you see this past weekend? I think it was in the New York Times, there was this whole article about why Gen X is the greatest generation ever and how influential it is.
- [01:43]
C
I agree.
- [01:44]
B
I miss that. Becky needs that data point. Orey, you've described the moment we're sitting in as a data reckoning, where organizations with more dashboards and tech tools than ever, but have less clarity. What has more data actually made many nonprofits move slower and not smarter, do you think?
- [02:00]
A
Yeah, I think, wow, we're diving straight in with. Right.
- [02:03]
B
Like, there's no warmup here.
- [02:06]
A
It's all good. We're going straight for the main. Main course. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if reckoning is the right word. It sounds like apocalyptic, you know, but, yeah, I think. I think there are lots of challenges around us right now. Right. And I think that a lot of organizations for a long time have gotten away with making decisions based on politics or based on done in the past and those types of things and for a while that was fine. But really when things are tight, when you know, when you're under pressure, the inability to make decisions that are based not just on insights, not just on data, but then like insights and the right insights become more critical, right? And that's the moment that we're at. A lot of organizations are really struggling budgeting and you know, funding sources are tightening. Um, there's political pressures, economic pressures, social pressures. So the importance of decisions is magnified. It can really, you know, sometimes make or break an organization's year or even their entire existence. And I think that's kind of where we're at. When the stakes are high, the decisions become more critical.
- [03:14]
C
I think this whole concept of data overwhelm is such a prevalent and real feeling within the sector. I can tell you, I have felt it for from the moment I entered the workforce and understanding what is important to look at, what actually moves the needle. And I think especially now when the target is moving so often on the daily here in the sector. And I just like this reframe John that you have about we don't need more data, we need metrics with meaning. And so Ori, I'm just curious from your perspective and what you see from your shop, which is so brilliant and to us you are the gold standard of impact measures within the sector. And I just want to know how data overload kind of shows up in impact measurement specifically because so many of us are still putting out impact reports and we're trying to work with this data and help our funders and our community understand. But some of them still, these reports still fail to influence funding or board level decisions. Why do you think that is from your point of view?
- [04:21]
A
Yeah, so I think, you know, the first challenge is impact has kind of become this buzzword, right? It kind of has gotten to a point where it kind of loses its meaning. Everything is about impact. It's kind of like, you know, a year ago where everything was AI and everybody was an AI expert and every company was AI driven. Once you get past that and once you start thinking about things a little bit more meaningfully, you know, a lot of companies historically have created impact reports, but as you mentioned, a lot of those reports have been performative, right? They've been very superficial. I think we talked last time that I was here about how a lot of organizations are really satisfied with measuring activities, right. They don't really understand logic models. So they measure activities and outputs rather than outcomes and impact. Right? They report on the number of dollars that they've given, or the number of meetings that they've had, or the number of emails that they've distributed, or those types of things. Things. But, you know, they don't tie the vision and mission and purpose of their organization to tangible things that matter to the stakeholders that they aim to influence. Right. And I think the main reasons are one that's really hard to do. It requires a deep understanding of your stakeholders, which most organizations don't do. So I think sitting down and really thinking about who your stakeholders are and what actually matters to them requires a different level of thinking and requires you to think externally rather than internally. And that's harder. So that's the first thing. The second thing is when you do that, then indeed, like you mentioned, you're overwhelmed with the amount of information that's out there. And then it's really sometimes difficult to go through the process of, you know, identifying out of the massive amounts of data what's actually information, meaning, you know, it's not just zeros and ones or numbers that are out there. It actually can tell you something. How does that translate into insights, meaning that inform you about a specific decision or a challenge or a fork in the row that you have, and then that you can use those to actually either solve a problem or answer a question in a meaningful way. And that kind of cognitive process is really hard to do when you have incredible volume of data but not a whole lot of information and no real idea how to decipher between the two. Right. So think about it. You're looking at a massive amount of data. Only 1% of it is going to be relevant to the decision or the question that you are looking to answer. It's very hard to sift that out. It's even harder when you haven't even done a good job of defining, defining what is the question or what matters either to your organization or to your stakeholders. So I think a lot of that is happening, especially in leaders that we talk to in our space. And then the second thing that I think is happening is there's more conversation about it, which is a good thing. But there's still a lot of ambiguity around definitions of impact and which metrics should we measure. So, for example, if we're talking about social determinants of health and we're looking to measure the health and well being of the undergrad student community in the city of Chicago, I'm just making this up. Well, how do we measure, how do we define the health and well being of the average 19 year old undergraduate student in the city of Chicago. Do we define it by what they eat, by how many times they visit the doctor, by their disposable income, by their propensity and capability of getting a job after their graduate? How do we define, like these things are hard to define. And because they're so broad, because they're so wide, there isn't a lexicon, there isn't a dictionary of definitions. So each organization ends up a lot of times defining it slightly differently and that creates bifurcation. Sorry, that was a super long winded answer to and so dang good.
- [08:24]
B
It was really good because there's a lot of like follow ups that I would have just hearing that. But you, you really caught me with this idea of going back to like thinking about a better question around the problem you're trying to solve. We've said for a long time on the podcast like we need to ask bigger, better questions. But I think you're a unique person to ask that because you sit with a lot of organizations as they really narrow down what are the questions we need to be asking? What are we actually trying to solve for? How would you guide somebody into getting to that better question?
- [08:56]
A
Look, we have a process that seems to, I mean, it's not a one silver bullet solution that works for all organizations, but we have a couple of steps that we try to take organizations that we work with through that help at a minimum, get them to a more informed, thoughtful place where you can start asking these questions. And the process should probably sound familiar to you because, you know, we kind of went, went through it. And I think the first step is really understanding your own organization and why do you exist? You know, your vision, mission, purpose, why do you exist? What kind of change do you want to see in the world? What can you do that nobody else can or better than anybody else can? Right? And then you got to triangulate that with what's out there, what's actually needed. And that's where your stakeholder mapping, which I mentioned earlier, comes in. Right. So getting a clear understanding of all of your stakeholders and that can be the individuals and communities that you're trying to help in whatever way you're trying to help them. Whether it's, you know, improved environments, arts and culture, you know, educational levels, health, whatever your partners out there, Right. Other organizations that you work with or should work with, your funders are really important and obvious stakeholder. If you have a board or a leadership team, your staff is. And, and so to think about for each one of those, what do they want, what do they need? Right? And getting very, very thoughtful and granular about mapping that out. And it's not enough to just map it out because there are going to be pushes and pulls, right. There are going to be dichotomies between those. So to prioritize them, right? That's actually the hard part. You're not going to be able to satisfy everybody's needs and wants at all times. So yeah, focusing and deciding, okay, like for the next year or for this project, we are going to be focusing on the needs and wants of this particular stakeholder and we're going to prioritize it because and have the rationale and the insights and the data to stand behind that and then building an action plan against that. So I think, you know, understanding yourself but then looking outward to where does the intersection of what you do overlap with what the world needs and what you are actually best positioned to execute on? That's the other thing that I would add. One of the pro one of the processes that happened to us at Sowen over the past few years is we've really narrowed down the things that we do because we wanted to be really, really, really good at fewer things. Get really, really specific about where we can make an impact. And I think that that's been really, really transformational for us. So we've tried to translate that in the partnerships that we, we have with our, our partners, whether they're nonprofits, foundations, corporate, academic institutions, government. Get very, very specific about what it is that you do that is at the intersection of what your stakeholders need, where you can make an impact and where you are most affected.
- [12:13]
B
Hey friend. Taking a quick pause to share about some of our amazing partners. Meet GiveButter, RKD Group Whiteboard and so on. These aren't just amazing partners for we are for good. They're value aligned allies who are fueling and growing the impact uprising. And so of course we want you to know them. So if you are looking for a new CRM or a fundraising or marketing partner, maybe an impact strategist or a creative team, we'd love to make a warm introduction for you to one of our trusted partners. They happen to be powered by amazing humans too. You can check them out@weareforgood.com Rex that's weareforgood.com RECS.
- [12:57]
C
I just think that was such a powerful reframe Ori and if you missed Ori's first conversation it was episode 601 and we're really redefining impact measurement and that we'll drop it in the show notes. But I can relate so deeply to what you're saying as a recovering major gift officer, because I used to try to get in the door with these funders all, all the time. And you're into me. I'm like, oh, I was asking all the wrong questions. I was like, can I come in and talk about our campaign? Can I come in and talk about our project? In that reframe of. I want to get clear about what you are, about what we're about. I want to lay the groundwork for where we're going. And I will tell you, Little Becky was doing the best she could back in the 2000s when she was like, oh, what metrics do we need to have in our annual report? Well, I'm going to look at 10 others. I'm just going to do exactly what they're doing, but I'm not asking the bigger questions at about how we're unique. And so I want to go a little bit into the organizations who are doing now what little Becky was doing then, which is like falling into performance theater a little bit. And where. Whether that's really focusing on, like, vanity outcomes, putting together the glossy impact reports. I just look at these things and we've been doing them the way we've always been doing it, and the sector is not the same now. So how can we reframe that for people who are just reporting the same metrics every single year and start to shift that paradigm?
- [14:26]
A
You just need to show them what's happening to organizations that don't shift. They are, you know, they're. They're meeting reality, right? So look, there are some organizations in our space that are so big that their, you know, failure points may come slower or they may never fail. But for most organizations, if you can't show impact, eventually somebody, whether it's your funders, whether it's your partners, whether it's the populations and communities who you claim to help, somebody is going to raise their hand and say, hey, what's going on? Right? And once that spiral of lack of trust starts, it's very, very hard to stop it. I think for a long time, a lot of organizations have gotten away with performative metrics because as an industry, we are still growing. We're still, you know, as a social impact industry, as I like to think of it, we're relatively new, right? In. In our modern iterations, we're relatively young at leveraging data and insights. We're relatively young at measuring impact all These things that manufacturing facilities have been measuring efficiencies for years and years and years. And right, like a manufacturing company knows exactly how much it cost us to produce the sole and the, you know, the logo on a shoe or something like that. They know exactly. For us, all these things are relatively new and we need to catch up and get better at them fast. But that's not always easy. I also think that, you know, there was a period of time where, to be quite honest, executives thoroughly enjoyed the ability to make big promises and issue big checks that have zero coverage. All these, like, ESG statements, we will be carbon neutral by 2025. How many companies in 2020 declare that they will be carbon neutral by 2025? And how many of them are actually carbon neutral? It's been really comfortable for a lot of executives to say, oh, you know, the political winds have shifted. We're going to drop all of our DEI efforts and we're going to just stop measuring fairness and equity in the modern workplace. Look, I think that's an easy out. It may work once or twice or three times, but eventually somebody's going to raise their hand and be like, hey, we're going to hold you accountable, whether it's the public, whether it's your own employees, communities, donors, whether, you know, it's your big donors, if you're receiving money from funds and deaths, if it's individual donors. If I'm given $150 at the end of the year to Organization X, I want to know what happened with that $150. I want to know what you think. I want to know not just what percentage of it went to your programmatic activities, but what happened out of those programmatic activities and how do those translate to better education for, you know, undergraduate kids in the city of Chicago. Again, just to carry on on that.
- [17:20]
B
Example, I mean, yes, to all of this. I feel like you're leading us into, like, much better data. Much better, I guess, foundation to make hard decisions, to make right decisions in this next year. So I'm really excited about this. As we talk about metrics with meaning, what specifically, what shift do you think nonprofit leaders need to make this year if they want to build metrics that can help them guide decisions and not just tick all the boxes of doing our reporting and I'm using air quotes now and whatever that looks like?
- [17:52]
A
Yeah, get very, very specific. I think they need to get a lot more specific. I think that piece around understanding who you are and understanding your stakeholders and what they actually want is fundamental without doing that work. You can't land on the right metrics because you're landing on metrics that may be right for you, but who cares about you as an organization, right? You've got a job to do. And unless you do your job, and unless you can show that you're doing your job, you're not justifying your reason for existence. You're certainly not justifying reason for funding, right? So that's going to make it really hard for you to go back to your funders and say, hey, you gave me a million dollars last year. Here's what we actually did with it. Here's what we said we would do with it. Here's what we did with it. Here's the gap between the two, and here's the opportunity. Without the right insights, you can't do that, and you can't get to the right insights without understanding who you are. What are your very, very specific goals and objectives? What are the three to five things that you do better than anybody else? And how does that align to the needs and wants of your stakeholders? And then the second thing that I think is really important is triangulating information. So I see a lot of work out there that is based on people's opinions, a lot of surveys, a lot of focus groups. Right? That's great. That's really important. It's really important to take that. But you gotta match that up against what actually happened. There are gaps between what people will say they will do or say that they feel or say that they, you know, engage on with a specific organization versus reality. So you got to find a way to close those gaps and triangulate information as much as you possibly can. The third thing that I think, and there's some conflict between what I'm about to say and this is, you know, something that we've been thinking about a lot lately. We also, as a space, have a tendency to be increasing, incredibly academic. We call it, like, fall in love with the problem. So, like, the flip side. Flip side.
- [20:04]
C
Oh, my gosh, that's so true.
- [20:06]
A
Right? Like getting all the data and making sure that you have the information that you need. The flip side of it is, you know, trying to get all the possible data and getting to the perfect answer, and that doesn't exist. Right. We also see organizations that are like, okay, we're not going to move forward with this decision until we know everything there is to know and weigh all the possibilities. Well, that's not gonna happen. Right. Life moves too fast. The questions that we deal with are very complicated. There is a balance to be struck between having the right information and knowing when you have enough information to make an educated decision. I think we talked about, like I always call it the aspirin test. Did, did I ever run you through the aspirin test?
- [20:48]
B
I don't think so.
- [20:49]
A
So like John, you wake up with the morning, you have a headache, right? What do you do? You take a couple of aspirin, you leave the house, half an hour later, your headache is gone. Most chances are that, I don't know, like you were dehydrated or something like that. You, whatever, you had a headache, you took the aspirin, your headache went away because of the aspirin. That's the likely thing, right? Yeah. Does that rule out the possibility that you have a carbon monoxide poisoning in your house and your headache was from that? No. Is it a possibility? Yes. Is it possible that, God forbid you have a more serious condition that you really need to go see a doctor for? It's possible. Are you going to rush to the doctor right. You know, there and then in that morning? No, because it's very unlikely. So, you know, thinking of things in, in that way and knowing when to balance. We have enough information to make this decision. It's not an absolute certainty. Nothing in life is. Very few things in life are. And we need to move forward with that decision.
- [21:47]
C
I just think there's so much strength in what you are saying there. I particularly like the triangulation, visualization exercise of just seeing what we're seeing, what our stakeholders are seeing, what the environment is seeing, and connecting those dots makes it seem like we are in this together and this is a group solve. And that is again, solving with community. And I, I think one, you listener who are out there listening to this right now, I want to thank you for tuning into this because this is an evolved mindset and I am proud of you for rethinking how we're going to look at data. But I also want to give our listeners a little bit of a reprieve. And practically speaking, Orey, what should leaders be doing less of? I want to give them a break from the hustle of trying to get all the metrics, trying to prove all the things, what do they need to be doing less of or what do they need to stop in order to make space for metrics with real meaning?
- [22:48]
A
Chasing data for the sake of chasing data, you know, building dashboards for the sake of building dashboards. God, the number of emails that we get, hey, can you build us this dashboard? Can you build us that dashboard. I was like, why? You already have 15 different systems that can build dashboards. You already have subscriptions to Power Bi Tableau. You know, you already have a subscription to Blocks and this and that. You can build all the dashboards in the world. Why? Why do you need to build a dashboard? How is this going to help you make a better decision, move faster, identify the impact that you're creating in real. Like, that's the actual question. So stop chasing silver bullet solutions. And that pertains to, like, building dashboards, Introducing a new process. Right? Like, we need a new process. Let's get the entire team together. We really need a new data process for our organization. Okay, hold on. What is the actual problem that you're trying to solve? There's a lot of resource and time and energy wasted on magic bullet solutions that may look good and sexy and they may be very, very appealing. Because in your mind, you're thinking about all your challenges in the day and you're like, oh, my God, that would take 15% off my plate. And it sounds awesome. And you're like, yeah, that's worth $5,000 or $10,000 or $50,000 or if you're working with McKinsey, $5 million. And it doesn't actually work because what you actually need is a simple, straightforward solution that your organization can actually adopt. Adopt and digest, rather than all the bells and whistles that the organization won't know what to do with another dashboard or another Ferrari in the parking lot.
- [24:41]
B
You just killed so many dashboard dreams right now, Orey. I hope you feel okay with yourself.
- [24:45]
A
I'm just using dashboards as an example. Right. Like, sometimes dashboards are used effectively just like any other tool. They can be amazing. They can be an amazing tool. Right. Like, the tools are agnostic. The tools are neither good or bad. It's how we use them.
- [24:58]
C
Exactly.
- [24:59]
A
If you don't have an idea of how you're going to use it or what are you trying to solve with it, don't go build the tool. Answer that first. Maybe the tool is the right tool. Could be a dashboard. It can be a new project management system, it can be a data lake, whatever.
- [25:15]
B
I really feel like, required listening. You already tagged this in, Becky, but your episode last year where you talked about the difference of just like, counting things basically and tracking things that that matter. I think putting this together, it's like, we have less time. We are really focused on solving the problem. This is a place where you can actually buy time. What are we tracking? Where Are we wasting our time? Like, this is a huge unlock, so I don't want to miss the power of what this can do for this year. These shift conversations. We're trying to push everyone into action, and we're part of this, too. Can I just say, we're trying to act all coy. We track data that we don't use all the time.
- [25:50]
C
Dude, we're horrible at this. Can we just say up front, like, egg on our face, we are the worst at this. Worries team is actually helping us reframe it.
- [25:59]
A
Yeah, you're not the worst at this. There's like one organization that I could think of that's been worse than you.
- [26:05]
C
Just one great.
- [26:09]
B
No, you're not.
- [26:10]
C
You're not.
- [26:10]
A
You're gathering great data. No, we're. We have. And we'll continue to work through the process of making smarter decisions using it. Translating. Going from information to data, to insights, to decisions, and then to activities like that. Cognitive is really, really powerful. Just like any other organization, you're going through a maturity model, right? If you haven't looked at it, I think we have on our website, like the five stages of data maturity, right. And so that it enables you to spend less time on bullshit activities and spend more time on the things that actually matter and treat your employees really, really well and have, you know, some revenue at the end of the year to give out bonuses, because those are the things that motivate people and like, those are the types of things that. That work. So we'll get there.
- [27:05]
C
You know, we are gonna get.
- [27:06]
A
We are getting there. Exactly.
- [27:07]
B
So as we think of a one good thing in these convos, something to start. What about leaders planning this year ahead? What's a good homework or playbook that you would give everybody kind of as a next step?
- [27:19]
A
I think a really good exercise to do. And we recently did it here at Sew in and it was really revealing because we didn't have straightforward answers. We had to talk about it. We have to. We had to get together and debate and argue and, you know, nothing was thrown but pretty close, you know, was around. What are the few things like how do we narrow our. The things that we do? Our value proposition for being able to do a lot of things, because smart people can do a lot of things. Smart and passionate people can solve a lot of different types of problems, especially in a space like ours where there are a lot of generalists, and I'm a big believer in generalists, by the way. But getting very, very specific about what can you do best Right. What are you positioned to do that makes a huge impact and that nobody else can do and that you enjoy and that you're really, really good at? And narrowing that down to us, you know, I attribute a lot. Look, our entire space had really rough 20, 22, 23, 24. We've had so far a really good 25, and things are looking really good for 26. And I attribute a lot of that to my partner in crime, Sophie Blondeau, who, you know, who always forces me and keeps reminding, like, sure, yeah. But does this align with the three things that we do best? And if you can't answer that, like, what are the three things that you do best better than anyone or that you're best positioned to do? You know, it's really hard to become excellent, to become really, really, really effective. So, yeah, I think, I think we're all passionate people. Our space is filled with incredibly clever, incredibly dedicated people. And the downside of that is we want to do a lot. You know, we want to influence everybody. We want to solve everything. And it comes from an incredible place. It's not effective. You end up doing a lot of things kind of well rather than doing the few things that you are best positioned to do really, really well and then make an impact on that. So I think, I think, yeah, exploring that, that's been, for me, in 2025, that's been a really, really good exercise to do. And, you know, we landed on. We only do three things for the organizations that we partner with. You know, we. We help them create data driven strategies for their organization or for a specific project that they're doing. We help them implement data and technology tools because we know that 90% of data projects fail not at gathering data or things like that, but they fail at implementation, like we mentioned earlier. Right. Like we all build lots of dashboards, but who's using them?
- [30:11]
C
Yeah.
- [30:12]
A
And then the big one is impact measurement. And we've decided that moving forward, that's all we're going to do. We're only going to do these three things. And there's lots of other things that we could do. There's lots of other things that are needed, but they're not at the intersection of what we do best, what we enjoy, what's needed, and where we're most effective.
- [30:33]
C
I think that that was the prettiest bow that you could have put on this conversation because I do think we are all unique, you know, in what we do in each of our missions. There may be 2 million cancer charities out there, but yours in your hometown is doing something unique that no one else is doing. So let's double down into that. Instead of answering all the questions that are before us, find out what that super nexus is and your data is going to lead you there. And I don't, and I want to be really clear that the data is not just the quantitative pieces, the qualitative pieces. You have taught us this, Ori are just as important. The conversations that you're having, the context people are sharing, the stories and the humans behind it. That is going to power your data, that's going to make it palatable and human.
- [31:24]
A
So Ori, hold on Becky, that's actually a really important point. When we sometimes forget we think of data, we only think of numbers. 90% of the information that we digest is visual. So in this conversation, for example, we can read through the chat, GPT or whatever, AI and let it analyze what keywords were more or less prominent. But guess what? The eye contact, the twitching of the face, you know, the non verbal communication, that is just as important, if not more important sometimes, you know. So I just want to highlight how important your point now was. I kind of wish it was my point, but that's fine. You're so spot on. It's so true. Right, so well done. That was a really, really great point.
- [32:18]
C
Well, and that's just what makes us human. We know that. We know the two things that AI cannot replicate is our empathy and creativity double down into that. We can pull that, we can call that and I think we can make our missions more vibrant than ever. So if you have further questions orey, where can people reach out to you? How can they connect with someone if they're really interested in this work? I know you have a lot of great tools on your website.
- [32:43]
A
You can website, you can Find us on LinkedIn. You can send me an email at oricarmel@sewinCo. Yeah, I mean it's not going to be hard. If you want to find us, you can, you can find us. Send an email to Becky and John and they'll connect.
- [32:56]
C
We will, we'll give you Ori's cell phone. No we won't. Yeah, but yeah, I mean you are so open and you do so much for the sector and I just. We learn so much from you and thank you my friend, for not only what you do for the sector, what you've done for we're for good. For the human. You are. To all three individuals that we are for good. We could not.
- [33:15]
A
Can I put an even better bow? Yeah, Congratulations. I know you guys had a huge couple of months with the big announcement. You should be incredibly proud of yourself. All three of you. Julie as well. She's hiding somewhere in her. And. Yeah, congratulations. It's been a huge year for you guys. You should be incredibly proud. Congratulations.
- [33:38]
C
He really is like our dad. Thank you.
- [33:40]
A
I know.
- [33:40]
B
I feel so grateful for you.
- [33:42]
C
We share it with everybody, so win for all.
- [33:45]
A
Thank you. All right.