B (3:36)

That's beautiful.

C (3:37)

You're on to something that is so much deeper than any of us can truly imagine. You've been writing about this for so long now, Susan. And here we are setting friends and at the intersection of the answer, where meaning and purpose come together, where human interaction and delight and rejuvenation. And so I'm so glad we're talking about this with you, Susan, because I just think there's a lot of distractions in the AI and technology space and we're leaning on that lever which has helped us speed up our work in some ways and has disconnected us even more. And so I want to know, like, what are you seeing leaders underestimate right now about what people are craving?

A (4:26)

Well, clearly people are craving to find connection, right? And they're realizing it's not going to be through a chatbot, it's not going to be through social media. Right? I mean, yes, I'm, I'm not anti social media, I'm not anti AI. But those are basically tools to the end goal. And that is human deep, meaningful connection where we listen more than we speak. Although I'm not doing that right here. But in other words, that, that needs to be the holy grail, not, you know, reaching out to a chatbot for, for your company, for your support. The other thing that's challenging, especially with young people and chatbots, is there's no friction. They will ask a question, the chatbot will almost always agree with them and, you know, tell them how wonderful they are. And when they go out in the real world, that's not the way it truly is. I mean, I guess maybe for some people, but certainly not for me. But the thing is, is without that friction, you know, and. And it means we're high. Like we're hiding away from potentially disagreeing with people, which is okay. It's okay to respectfully disagree. But if you never put yourself in those positions, you don't learn, you don't advance, you don't expand your mind. So if you are only talking to a chatbot, you're just. It's like talking to yourself, right?

B (5:48)

Yeah. So I think, you know, we were really enamored with the word of dialogue as something that we think that the more we can lean into that, like, that's such a powerful reframe. And I want to counter that first, since we're kind of talking about some of the problems here we've also seen people solve with just adding more communication. I think if I talk more, more updates, more messages, more tools, more. Why does more not equal this? Trust or belonging either?

A (6:14)

Yeah, well, I go back to something I learned years ago. We have two ears and one mouth for a reason. So we should be listening twice as much, not talking twice as much. And listening is probably one of the most underrated portions of connection. We tend to think of connection as people reaching out, sending articles, which I love doing. You know, when I think of a friend and I send that off. But I also have to remind myself it's time to just sit back. And I do believe the leaders now, certainly in the nonprofit space, but everywhere. Throwing more spaghetti at the wall is not going to lead you to the answer, but perhaps putting out a question and then taking in the answers is where you want to be. Because we're all drowning. You know, I joke sometimes with people I know and many women in like perimenopause and menopause, you tend to get brain fog, right? So somebody will say to you, oh, I left you a message. And you're like, okay, was it Instagram? Was it blue sky? Was it LinkedIn? Was it WhatsApp? Was it Signal? Was it email? Was it voicemail? Was it postal mail? And you're like, there's just so much. So there's no way by adding more volume to that, you're going to get your message across. You're going to connect in a meaningful and viscerally personal way. And we know that nonprofits, if they are going to, one, fundraise, two, complete their missions, need to be able to communicate pervasive, important, critically important information. And by blasting it out. No, no.

C (7:52)

Thank you for saying that. Because More. Adding more to more is just going to feed this problem. And you have been looking at this issue since before COVID which I think is really, really. And I'm really curious, since you've launched your book, which I just want to say this to our community, how many books do you think we've dropped on this podcast? Over 660 something episodes? Hundreds, right?

B (8:15)

A ton.

C (8:16)

I would put Susan's book In the top 10 most influential books that I have read. And I don't say that just because you're sitting in front of me and I love you, even though those two things are also true. But I think that when you are so programmed to think about your business all the time, and I'm just like, we need to stop. We need to remember what it looks like to look at someone intently, grab their hand when they're going through something, shift the tenor of that speed of life right now and slow it down. And I want to know from you, Susan, how is your understanding of connection evolved since that book was first published to where you're looking at it right now today?

A (9:03)

Wow. Wow. Well, when I wrote the book, I started writing it in February of 2020, and March of 2020 was when the pandemic started. So the night, the eight to nine months that I wrote was like experiencing the pandemic in real time. And, you know, if you both and your listeners remember, if we go back to those, that crazy, crazy month of March and April, May, we kept thinking it was gonna be done right, and then it just kept going. But when the book came out, everybody, when they saw the title, assumed it was in response to the pandemic. And I spent this summer taking the book and updating it. And I have a new talk and I'm sharing it with you all here first, it's called Exclusive.

C (9:48)

No kidding.

A (9:49)

Da da da, da da. It's called how to Meaningfully Connect in a World that's Gone to Shit with an asterisk. Beep. And the reason I bring that up, in answer to your question, is in 2021, AI was just a. I mean, it was happening. But ChatGPT hadn't been launched, that came three years ago. So it still was kind of an amorphous thing for lay people or, you know, people who aren't in the tech space. And the vitriol, yes, existed, the political vitriol, but nothing compared to where we are today. So we tend to put, and I may word this wrong, but we tend to put connection, like all the other problems lead to lack of connection. As opposed to what does lack of connection lead to? Right. We all hear that if you aren't meaningfully connecting with other people, it's like smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. But other than that, we don't really think about the fact that our democracy is imploding. Well, maybe that is directly a cause of the lack of communication. You know, teens are. Higher rates of suicide, higher rates of gun violence. Is that, again, emanating from this lack? So think of the lack of connection as the actual problem.

B (11:04)

That's much of the work that needs to be done. And I think of the outgoing Surgeon General's prescription for America. You know, how beautiful that was, of just like a call back to community and back to care. I just think the nonprofit space is uniquely designed to help step in at this moment as a theory of change. But, you know, is what kind of what you're leading to, but also just like, in how we're building relationships. Like, that's the way forward. So I really want to move to, specifically to this shift that we're lifting of from communication to connection. And if we name this moment as, like, the reconnection era, what does that require nonprofit leaders to shift in their focus for this year? What would it take to be ready to be unlocked from your purview?

A (11:48)

Well, first and foremost, take a deep breath. Okay. We're coming out of a horrendous year of uncertainty, of budget cuts, of USAID being shut down, the fear of lawsuits, everything. It's been a, as we would say in Yiddish, a mishigash, or to quote my late father. But once a leader can step back. And again, primarily thinking about nonprofit leaders, I would say really, really focus on the relationships within your organization, your funders, the people, the populations you serve. And this sounds so trite, but really prioritize trust. And the best way to prioritize trust in my book is listening, listening, listening, asking questions, being curious, and letting your team and your. Your employees help guide you. Right. Again, this goes back to that. That image, I think, that we. We conjured up at the beginning, where it's not about just throwing more out there, but let's take the first quarter of 2026 to kind of just reassess where we are and help not only you reconnect with your own teams, but help them connect with one another. That would be my thought start.

C (13:08)

I mean, I feel like Susan's just starting to quote all of the trends for 2026, because I do think they all connect, is my point. Like, when we say that like our trend this year is trust is the work right now. Like we have to reestablish that Again, trust and connection go hand in hand. I mean, if you're not talking to someone, and I'm saying listening, talking, having that feedback, and it's not enough to just listen. You've got to actively listen and implement. Because once people see their words and ideas implemented into the culture, something shifts, the cohesion tightens. And so we've talked about this return to local and the power of not going so big and so deep virtually. But how do we just get a couple of people in value aligned community together for heartfelt conversations in this smaller, more intimate community? And I want to know how you see that showing up inside these nonprofits. Like what you said, starting inside. That's what John and I always say. When we start a movement, it's got to start at the most internal that it can with your staff, then maybe your volunteers, then into your donors, then into your lurkers and just the outlying community. How can you see nonprofits flex this return to local concept?

A (14:30)

Well, we, we're certainly seeing it with some of McPherson strategy clients where they're doing smaller local salons, gatherings and not fancy. Right. Like not rehearsed, not polished brass tacks like roll up your sleeves. We're seeing a lot more focus from companies wanting to implement volunteer programs because people want to feel like they're making a difference. And I, and, and I know we've that, that has existed. It's not a new concept. But when you look at where the private sector is investing in terms of helping the nonprofit sector, it is very, very much focused on getting their employees involved with causes. You know, I think you may have inter interviewed her and if you haven't, highly recommend Emily from Grapevine.

C (15:22)

Loving it.

A (15:23)

And interestingly enough, giving circles are now being adopted by corporations because it's a great way to connect employees around a particular cause, something they care about. The nonprofit gets funded, of course, and people feel like they're belonging to something. So it's, it's outside the nonprofit, of course, because it's coming from the private sector. But giving circles didn't used to exist in the private sector, right? Yeah. And then the company can take it the next step and help these folks volunteer and in many cases, skills based volunteer. So if I was running a nonprofit right now, I would be looking for those opportunities to be a recipient of that and show how as a nonprofit leader you can help build community with employees who are local.

B (16:11)

I love that we're Having this talk with you, Susan, because you model this. Can we just say that the way you gather people in your home to have important conversations. Yeah, like, this is what it looks like. It doesn't have to be fancy. It's just, hey, come over and let's all talk about this thing so we can move forward together. Which connects me back to dialogue. I know I teased this earlier in the conversation. We love the idea of moving into dialogue, not as like a value statement, but as like a day to day leadership practice. How do you encourage someone to step into more brave conversations? You do this so naturally. What's. How does that translate into a leadership practice?

A (16:50)

Vulnerability. Right? None of us are perfect. We've all freaking, you know what, in beginning with an F in our lives, and every single other person has two. So we can only expect from others what we expect of ourselves. And I think that needs to also be the guiding light. When you're asking others to show up, when you're asking others to perform, when you're asking, you always, always, always have to put yourself in their shoes in the sense of it may be a bad day or somebody may be hurt in their family or somebody they know might have ended up in the er. The thing is, we've all experienced that, right? So it may sound trite, but empathy, empathy, empathy, compassion, caring. I had four surgeries this year and it was horrible. Like, horrible. But when people, people are like, oh, but you're so, how you're so strong. I'm like, no, I'm not. That's just the face I put on podcasts, right? So I think. But there's a realization that we're all human.

C (17:52)

I just think that what you're saying has resonance. And I would. The only thing I would add to it is be gentle and vulnerable and kind with yourself. I can speak so kindly to everybody else, but why I'm not kind to myself and my children see that. And so I do think that this is such a moment to have these conversations in vulnerability because we're going to shift. So let's move into action. This is the very last thing you've been on the podcast many times to know. We wrap up with a one good thing, but we want a one good thing plus a little homework for everybody today. So for our leaders who are listening, for our nonprofit and impact professionals who are planning the year ahead, what's the homework, Susan? Or the playbook or the starting point you give them to take this conversation and move it into action.

A (18:43)

Okay, here's my thoughts. Connection isn't a nice to have. It needs to be your operating system. I mean, for years, it's always been relegated to, you know, the monthly happy hours that companies sponsor or the annual meeting or the sales conference. It needs to be embedded every single day. And when I say connection, I don't mean just throwing out an email and saying, I connected with my employees, but that outreach, that listening, that asking the questions, start there. And not to be redundant, but listen twice as much as you speak.

B (19:22)

Susan, you've done it again. And we want more people to know you and connect with you. So where's the best place for folks to connect with you to follow your work at McPherson yalls memo, y'.

A (19:32)

All.

C (19:32)

I forgot to say, the McPherson memo is something people should subscribe to. We'll put the link in the show notes.

B (19:38)

Yep. It's like every other week. But so much lifting of good that's happening in the world. Yeah.

A (19:43)

And there's the connected newsletter on LinkedIn, which I'm pretty sure one of you or both of you are going to be featured in this coming year.

B (19:50)

I saw.

A (19:50)

Thank you so much. Yeah, well, we'll get to you too, John. We just have to break it up a little bit, right? Yes. It's exciting. We have almost 15,000 subscribers.

B (20:01)

Wow.

A (20:01)

Super, super beautiful. And it's really. I. To me, that is an example of connecting because it gives us an opportunity to showcase others who have made building connections a part of their lives, part of their professional lives. So it's just a really, really interesting look at a wide swath of individuals. You can find me on all the socials. SusanMcP1. And that's because in 2007, when I joined Twitter, there was another Susan McPherson, so I had to shorten it. SusanMcP1.

C (20:35)

She's cornered the SEO market on SusanMcP1. So please go find Susan, I think. Thank you for taking on such a heady topic. That is connection. That is dialogue. That is local. We believe they all fit together to create a nuance of authentic community and connection. So thank you for coming in. Just adore you. Amazing human.

B (20:59)

I see you.