← We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits
We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits
683. Why Most Capacity Building Fails — and What Works Instead - Leona Christy, Catalyst Exchange
00:36:36
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- [00:02]
A
I came to the social sector after a detour through the corporate sector. And when I came here, I realized that the folks here cared deeply about our work. And our missions were so important, they were so difficult, and yet we were doing it with a fraction of the resources and support that corporate folks were getting. And it drove me nuts.
- [00:29]
B
Hey, I'm John.
- [00:31]
C
And I'm Becky.
- [00:32]
B
And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
- [00:34]
C
Let's get started.
- [00:38]
B
Hey, Becky, what's happening?
- [00:39]
C
Hey, John. We are on a journey in 2026 and we want to help you reimagine capacity. So it is my joy to introduce you to Leona Christie. She is the founder and CEO of Catalyst Exchange. And today we're going to be talking about how capacity building really strengthens not only the people, but the fundraising and the long term impact when done well. And we gotta give a shout out to Susan McPherson over at McPherson Strategies for making the introduction to Leona, because we really want to talk about Catalyst Exchange. They're an organization that's transformed how schools and nonprofits strengthen their systems and their people and their impact. You've got that one, two, three, punch. And her personal story and her professional vision are both rooted. This belief that strong orgs don't have to make change, they're gonna, they just need to sustain it. So now Catalyst Exchange is serving partners across 50 states. They're helping schools. John, you know how much I love the education system. My mother's a teacher, my sister's a teacher. And they are helping also community based organizations build lasting capacity and collaboration. They are pioneering this dynamic marketplace that connects orgs with trusted experts, strengthen local networks through place based partnerships. And they're also equipping leaders to respond to disruption in real time. Can we all give an amen to the disruption that comes in this work all the time? So, Leona, we are so excited to see how you are building this more resilient, equitable future for the sector. Welcome to the podcast. We're so glad you're here.
- [02:17]
A
Becky, John, thank you so much. It is such a pleasure to be here today. And I have so much gratitude to both of you for holding space to have this very important conversation about capacity building in this moment. We know nonprofit and public sector leaders are under more strain than ever before. And it's critical that we have the conversation about how do we support them so that they can make it through not just this moment, but can also thrive during whatever's next. So thank you for having me.
- [02:49]
C
Beautiful transition. I mean, I have to connect it Back to our 2025 mental health survey that we took last October of our community, community. And no one could have prepared themselves for what was going down in 2025. That is indisputable. But people are tired, they are overwhelmed, they are overburdened, and they need a different way. So before we get into it, Leona, we want to get to know you. So take us back to little Leona. Where'd she grow up? How'd you get into this work?
- [03:20]
A
Oh, Becky, this is a long story. So. So there are two parts to my story that I will share here. The first thing for you to know is that I grew up in India. My dad was a government employee, and he believed deeply in the power of democracy, in the importance of public service, to the extent that When I was 10, he made me sign a contract where I had to promise that when I grew up, I would work in either the public or the nonprofit sector. Of course, 10 year old Leona signed the contract, but then forgot all about it till many, many years later, which is when he reminded me about it and took a couple of detours through the private sector before I realized that what I wanted to do was what he wanted me to do as well. So that was one part of my journey, the journey that brought me to the social sector. And I truly do believe that the work we do here is the most meaningful work imaginable. Right? It is easy to sell soap. It is easy to design an app. The work we do here in the social sector, in terms of making sure every child has access to opportunity, that we are creating thriving communities, that is so, so hard. And so I won't pretend it's been easy, but I'm so glad that I'm doing the work that I'm doing. The second part of my journey is my immigration journey. Like I said, I grew up in India and I moved to the US when I was 27. And so I moved here as an adult, and that's a whole different experience. I came here after having had a reasonably successful career, friends, family, feeling very comfortable in who I was. And then being an immigrant meant that all of that was taken away from me. Right? I had to almost start afresh. And that experience of feeling very invisible in those first few years left me with this clear understanding of what does it mean to be on the outside, to have big ideas, to know that so much is possible, that you can do so much, and yet not have the opportunity to do so. Right? So those are the two kind of big experiences that I would say, has brought me to where I am right now.
- [05:47]
B
Leona, you have us literally in the palm of your hand with your story. I mean, how cool that you can see your parents legacy and how they rooted you in giving back. But I love that you came full circle with this lens because I love talking to founders specifically, because you saw something in the world and you've led us into this a little bit. You saw something in the world that felt inequitable, felt that there was opportunity, that there was someone being missed, and you stepped into it. So, like, connect the dots of like, how you started Catalyst Exchange and like, give a little bit of the background of like, what led you to try to solve this problem.
- [06:24]
A
So, John, like I said, I came to the social sector after a detour through the corporate sector, right? And when I came here, I realized that the folks here cared deeply about our work and our missions were so important, they were so difficult, and yet we were doing it with a fraction of the resources and support that corporate folks were getting. And it drove me nuts. It's kind of like trying to build a skyscraper with a shovel and speed, right? It doesn't matter how great your vision is, how passionate you are about building that skyscraper. The reality is you're not going to be able to do it. And that's incredibly frustrating. Right? And so that's kind of what was been playing in the background of my mind as I was looking across. And one of the challenges that I see is that you have philanthropy that funds programs, but doesn't fund the organizations, the systems, the people behind it. Right? And so you have this very fragile sector where the people working to bring about real change are just not equipped to do it. And so that was the problem I was trying to solve. And if you break that down into its constituent parts, there's a huge resourcing problem. How do you access the resources you need to build capacity? There's also, however, a set of other problems. How do I know what kind of capacity to build? What do I do first? What do I do next? What conditions are necessary for me and my team to be successful? Who do I work with? There are so many folks out there. How do I know who's good and who's good for me and my team? Right? So these were all the questions that I was wrestling with in my mind when the idea for Catalyst came up. And this is a cliche, it was literally a middle of the night idea which then over many, many months, over a few years, in fact, became what it is now.
- [08:37]
C
It's because our subconscious wakes us up and has to, like, ding us on the head.
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B
Exactly.
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C
These great ideas are there. We need to activate them.
- [08:45]
A
I thought it was a midlife crisis, Becky. That sounds better.
- [08:50]
C
Oh, my gosh. I relate. I just feel like anytime I hear someone telling me their immigrant story, I just want to say welcome. We're so glad you're here. You know, my grandparents came through Ellis Island. Society is so much stronger when it's diverse, when it has different points of view, when it has different lived experience. And I think this is a great metaphor for what you've done over at Catalyst Exchanges. You've taken a step back and you've looked at it differently. And we need a different lens on this work so intensely. And I want to, John, I want to, like, give our listeners some impact of what has happened with Leona's group. So under your leadership, Catalyst Exchange has supported more than 1500 organizations, connected them with a network of over a thousand expert providers, fueled $27 million in capacity building investments. All very impressive. Right. But, but here's the linchpin for me. And with all with a 94% project success rate. So it works, this works when we attack it in a different way. And so for our listeners who might be wondering how this actually happens, can you break down what's behind this numbers? What does success look like on the ground? How did you do this?
- [10:11]
A
Yeah. Thank you, Becky. It's. It's truly been a journey getting to this moment, and I won't pretend it's been easy. Let me first paint a picture for you on what this looks like for a specific leader. Right. So let's call her Sam. And Sam, in this moment, as we've. We've talked about in the abstract, is under tremendous pressure. Right. The world is changing and shifting all around her. Resources are constrained, so she knows she needs to make big shifts, but doesn't necessarily have access to resources, doesn't know where to start because these problems are not happening sequentially in an orderly way. Everything is changing at once. And you have to both take care of the external world as well as what's happening with your team. Right. Because team members under immense pressure as well. So as we think about Sam and the supports she needs, the first thing that our team brings to the table is something we call capacity advisors. So capacity advisors work with leaders to help them get clear on what's needed, help them feel understood. Right. I think of it as part strategic advisor, part therapist, and I grew up Catholic, so part confessor as well. Right. So the whole idea is that as you go through that conversation, it kind of settles some of that feeling of, of confusion, of feeling alone, of feeling anxious about the future. So that capacity advising is really important, and it also helps people get clear about what success looks like and what are some of the steps needed to get there. Right. So then the capacity advisors identify specific projects. Now, those projects could either be funded by Sam's organization itself, but in most of cases, we have funders who have funded something we call wallets. So wallets are kind of like if your uncle gave you a debit card and told you you could spend that much money on whatever was most important to you. And that's very different from how philanthropy operates in general. So when these wallets are set up for organizations, the leader, Sam here has the ability to say, here's what's most important for me, here's what I want to work on. And that sense of agency is really important for project success because no matter how much data we have, the reality is the person in that seat knows more about their needs and their context. We just need to create space in that capacity advising conversation for them to fully show up and say, these are my biggest challenges right now. Right. So the first thing, like I said, was the capacity advising. The second is the wallets. And then, like you mentioned, we have this national network of vetted technical assistance providers, experts. They go from large firms to independent consultants. They've all been through a process through which we understand what their expertise is. And again, we encourage leaders. So Sam in this case would have the opportunity to look through options and determine for herself who she thinks is right, given her context. Right. And so that means that even that match isn't someone, usually a foundation, saying, hey, I think you should work with these folks. It's the leader themselves saying, here's who I think gets me, gets this work. And that's really important as well. And then the last thing I will say is that both during and after the project, we go back in and collect data on what happened. Was the project successful? Which means there's also accountability in the system, which helps us learn about what's working and what isn't.
- [14:15]
B
I mean, how dang refreshing is this process that you have made so much.
- [14:19]
C
Trust based, like philanthropy going on here?
- [14:21]
B
Yeah, I think that too, like centering agency in this is sadly disruptive, you know, but is so the bar is so low.
- [14:30]
C
Right, Right.
- [14:32]
B
But you know, we talk about all the time that there's, there's answers in community. We need to Be building with community, not for community. And that's. This is in practice. You know, if you're listening and you're like, what does that actually model and look like? You're doing this at scale, which I think is really encouraging. And you're also doing this locally. And I wanted to talk for a minute about how you're strengthening local networks through place based partnerships. That's certainly something that's on the top of mind here at We Are for Good. It was the catalyst for us creating local meetups across the country. Because there's so much good to be had in not thinking of community on these virtual screens that we spend half our life on. But like, who's our neighbors? Who's working on the same problem and thinking about the same things and going to the same coffee shop with us? You know, like, break it down. What does that look like of these local partnerships that you're putting in place?
- [15:21]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, place based partnerships, for folks who are not familiar with that term, is when networks of organizations come together to say, how can we bring the best of what we know, the relationships we have everything together to make sure every child, every human in this community has access to opportunity, has the ability to thrive. That's really important, especially because so many of the challenges that we face in communities is they're not one single problem. It's all interconnected. Whether it's education, health, economic mobility, housing, these are all interconnected. So when nonprofits come together and say, how can we work together? That's powerful in and of itself. So a huge shout out to all of the PBP's that are there across the nation doing this really hard work. Now our work is one step removed. It is to make sure that those place based partnerships are equipped to have the kind of impact that they're building towards. And so that looks like a couple of things, John. First of all, it looks like supporting the backbone organization. So in many communities where there are these kinds of place based partnerships, there is a backbone organization which is really thinking about how do we bring all of these folks together, how do we align them, how do we make them work together? So the first kind of role we play is in supporting those backbones in these communities across the nation. And then the next level is when we support the network members that this backbone is then bringing together to address challenges that are there in the community. The questions we are asking here is that by supporting lots of organizations that are all working in the same place, that are all supporting the same community, can we ensure that the sum is greater, that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts? Right. What happens when all of these organizations become stronger? What happens to the ecosystem there? This is going to be a little bit of a detour. But I talk about painkillers and vitamins often. Right. So as you think about capacity burning, sometimes the kinds of challenges that organizations and leaders face require painkillers. Right. You need to solve the problem for them because it's hard to tell them, you know, you need to do this for the future when they are struggling today. Right. And then you have vitamins, which is really around. How can you support organizations in thinking about tomorrow in building their capacity and strengthening their work and their teams for the future? I think of our community based work as vaccines. Right. You're going in ahead and you're building that kind of group immunity, group resilience and strengthening that then ensures that that community can face whatever challenges comes up in the future in a more collaborative, in a more aligned way and that they're prepared.
- [18:48]
C
I just think it's a brilliant system that completely upends power and shares power instead. And of course, when you're sharing power, and I love that you've talked about this issue that we talk about all the time on the podcast, which is the people who have the solutions to the problem are the closest to the issue. And so they should have the most power, they should have the, the most voice, they should have the most agency. And I love how you have built these containers around it. And the reality is capacity building builds a really, really strong capacity building lays a foundation for fundraising, it lays a foundation for resilience. It lays a foundation for building flexible and responsive systems. And so you've seen the full spectrum of what capacity building looks like across thousands of organizations. I want to know, what do you see as like the hallmarks of effective capacity building in this moment right now? That's one. And then what are. I also want to know, like, what are people getting wrong? Yeah, I want to know what's the good and give me the wrong and let's start to work toward the good and unwind the wrong or the bad.
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B
Right.
- [20:02]
A
I love that. So here's the unfortunate reality, and it's so ironical, Becky. The need for capacity building is greater now than ever before. And yet the reality is a lot of capacity building as traditionally practiced, it's inaccessible, it's ineffective, and rather than reducing inequities, it often exacerbates them. Right. And a big reason for that is because it's disconnected from what's needed on the ground. It's very often funder driven and one size fits all. So it's designed based on what someone somewhere thinks this organization needs and delivered by a bunch of folks who have very little connection to that community, to that work, and whose best practices are often derived from the experiences of a small number of very well funded organizations. And so of course, if you take that and then try and replicate it across, you're not going to see very much in terms of real change happening on the ground. Right. So if that's what the current state is, largely what are we trying to change to? Right. And so there are three things that I think are especially important. I think there are lots of shifts that are needed. But let me just kind of focus on the three things that are most important. The first is capacity building needs to be mission driven. So I think, John, it was you who said earlier on in our conversation that capacity building tends to be very narrow. That's right. Right. Now when people think capacity building, they think a strategic plan that maybe lives on a beautiful deck on a desktop somewhere, or it's an evaluation project. It's very funder driven. Right. But if you change that lens and say, let's make it mission driven, the question then becomes, what do you need to strengthen? What do you need to build so that you can accomplish your mission? And that just scrambles the equation and allows you to come to a deeper understanding of what's needed. So that's the first one, mission driven. Right. The second is it needs to be responsive to what organizations need. And we've talked a little bit about it before. If you need a painkiller right now, it's not going to be helpful for me to say let's talk about vitamins, let's talk about your fitness routine, let's talk about your diet. Right. So it needs to be responsive to what the organization needs, to the context of the organization. And the third thing that I would emphasize is that it needs to be timely. There's so much capacity debt in a sense that we all carry. And then being able to address all of that isn't easy. So it needs to be timely as well. And so these are the three things that I would really emphasize as we think about how does capacity building need to change. The one other thing I will name here is also that, so this is what capacity, how capacity building needs to change for it to work for organizations. I think if we then went one level further away and asked ourselves, what do we need for capacity building to work for communities. I think a big part of it is resourcing. The reality is resourcing for capacity building is very skewed and inequitable across the sector. Large national organizations which have access to all kinds of funds are still able to access capacity building support. The nonprofits that are community based, that are working closest to communities, those are the ones that could benefit the most from capacity building, but they very often do not have access to resources. And so as we think about how does capacity building need to change for it to work for communities and for the sector as a whole? That's the one thing that I would add as well.
- [24:26]
B
I mean, let's keep going on that thread because, you know, we asked our community in the fall, like, what's top of mind for you? And raising money is always the top, it seems like when we ask this because I think resources are limited or there's a perception that they're limited too. So let's talk about that. For the someone listening today that feels like they are scrimping and trying to make it work, how would you walk into this? What advice do you have for the type of resources that may be available that we're not thinking of?
- [24:56]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think the first thing is to just acknowledge that they are in a really hard situation and that the lack of resources makes it difficult. Right. I want to make sure that we don't reinforce our situation where we say, well, if only you were more resourceful, if you were more creative, if you worked harder, you would be able to solve some of these deep rooted challenges or needs that your organization has, that your community has. So I think the first thing is to just acknowledge the fact that resources are necessary and do all that we can to influence philanthropy, to think about resourcing these organizations and think about resourcing capacity burning. So that's, I think, almost table stakes here. Right. But beyond that, while we're waiting for some of that change to happen, I think there are some things that I would encourage folks to think about. The first is that sometimes talking to someone who has expertise can be really helpful. Right. And so we have something that we call office hours, where leaders have the opportunity to speak with someone, whether it's a capacity advisor on our team or somebody who brings expertise in a very specific area. And that initial conversation can surface up some ideas and solutions that folks might be able to implement right away. Now, it's not going to solve everything. If only that was possible, but at least it'll give them a starting Point. So that's one thing that I will say. The second thing is I do think sometimes what happens with philanthropy is they need to see a clearer link between capacity building and the mission. And so if folks can, if leaders can make the case to their funders for how their investments, whether it is in stronger talent systems internally, a better way to communicate to their constituents, a different way of engaging with their stakeholders, if they can help paint that picture of how that capacity building will actually translate into stronger outcomes in the field, that makes the case stronger. And there are of course some foundations that offer capacity building grants. There's still far too few. The ones that I will name, for instance, the Kauffman foundation in Kansas has been offering capacity building grants. What we've also seen is for the place based partnerships that we work with, sometimes the backbone organizations has grants that they offer to their network members. So these are not huge grants, but they allow you to get started.
- [27:55]
C
Right.
- [27:56]
A
And the last thing I will mention is that sometimes this work is about surviving through to the next day when more resources might be available. And so as you think about how do you do that, a big part of it is strengthening that connection to your mission. Because when things get hard, it is that sense of purpose, that sense of meaning that allows you to get through it, to get to a point where when help arrives, you are there and able to take it.
- [28:34]
C
I love it when we have a guest on and it's like they're not even fully aware, but they have cascaded down so many of our trends for the years. And I see that you've taken on at least three of them, three of the 12 in this conversation. I mean, I think the advice, advice about telling the story of your data is metrics with meaning. You have to tell the story of what do the metrics mean, what is happening underneath the surface. We may have this many donors or this many dollars, but here's what's happening to our staff to get to that point. And the other one I heard you talk about was merge to multiply that. We have to talk to other nonprofits. We don't necessarily have to merge our organizations. We have to talk about what's working, what's not working. If we are, you know, cause adjacent. If we are working on the same projects, it is only going to help our constituents for us to have a bigger conversation. I just think this conversation is such a powerful reframe for capacity building. And so I really encourage anyone to share this episode with a friend. But we gotta get back into the Story piece. And we value story here in this community so deeply. And we are curious if there is a moment of maybe it's philanthropy, maybe it's generosity, maybe it's kindness that happened in your life that stayed with you. Is that a story you'd be willing to share with us?
- [30:01]
A
There's so many moments of generosity and kindness, Becky. And as an immigrant, I will say that for all the rhetoric that's there right now, I wouldn't be where I am if so many people at so many levels hadn't made me feel welcome. And I think, you know, those little acts of kindness and generosity are so, so important as we think about what's needed to keep us human, keep us whole. I have two stories to share. One is, like I said, we have, as we think of moments of generosity, people usually think about big philanthropy and big dollars. And I'm not here to say that's not important. We do need those dollars for the sector. Yes, we do. But it's so much more powerful when folks who don't have that much still give because they see it as part of their work, their role. It hurts to give, and yet you're giving. Right. And so as I look at our work across the nation, again, what stands out for me are some of the place based partnerships that we work with, where you have the backbone, organizations that are nonprofits themselves who say, we will set aside some of the dollars we have so that we are strengthening the organizations that we work with. And to me, that's really powerful. So that's one example. I think the second thing that I will name is even in philanthropy, there are specific program officers, and these are often women of color who are working really hard to expand the narrative around who deserves dollars. What does risk look like, what does impact look like? And they often do it at some level of personal risk and personal cost. Because these organizations, these large philanthropies, typically have one way of looking at things and it's hard to be the one person who is push for something else, and yet they do it. I won't name names, but if you are listening, you know who you are. And there's just so much of gratitude that I have, and I know others have for people who have done that, who have taken on risk and cost because they believe in something that's larger than themselves.
- [32:52]
B
I feel like you're bringing us back full circle to we each have agency, you know, to take action, to do the next thing. Thanks for signing that contract when you were 10, because it puts you on this trajectory in the cosmos.
- [33:05]
C
Exactly. I was just thinking, like, I only gave my kids a cell phone contract. That's the only contract I've ever had.
- [33:12]
B
My kids, which for that too, that's.
- [33:14]
C
Probably more intuitive and generative.
- [33:18]
B
Leona, we end all our convos asking for one good thing. What's something that's lifting for you today that you would share with our community?
- [33:25]
A
I'll say two things. The first thing is we need to show up. When things are as hard as they are right now, it is so, so tempting to say we'll just retreat, we'll just let somebody else take care of all of this. And yes, rest is important, but retreating and leaving the field isn't a solution. And so we need to show up. And showing up is hard. Right? So that's one thing that I will say. The second thing, and this is a recent practice that I came across, I ask myself whenever I'm going through a rough patch, what do I have today that I would have done so much for 10 years ago? And likewise, what do I have today that I would kill for 10 years from now? Right. And so moving that frame of reference of time allows us to see how despite everything that is going on in the world, despite all of the challenges we still have, and this is true for every single person, every single person has something to be grateful for and really finding that provides the fuel for starting to take care of everything else. So those are the two things that I would name as being very important for me personally, show up.
- [34:59]
C
I mean, I think that's. That is the call. The kind of the rally cry for 2026 is it's, it's time to show up as, and I would even say as your authentic self. I just think that you have come in and done more than talk about building capacity, Leona. You've talked about how you can remain in this and still remember ourselves. So people are going to want to connect with you. Tell us where you hang out online, tell us what social channels you are in and how people can connect with Catalyst Exchange.
- [35:31]
A
I am on LinkedIn and Catalyst Exchange is at catalyst-exchange.org and if you go there, there are ways that you can connect with resources. You can get onto our newsletter list. You know, we will then also reach out to folks and let them know when there are opportunities and ways for them to access resources and engage with our team. So those are the two things that I would recommend folks do. Wonderful.
- [36:02]
B
Okay, you got it. We'll find you on LinkedIn. And my friend, thank you for the way that you showed up in the conversation, the stories that you brought us into feel such a kinship. And I know this community is going to be so excited to know you. So thanks for being here.
- [36:16]
A
Well, thank you both for creating space for these conversations. It truly felt like I was sitting with longtime friends and we were over a cup of coffee talking about the state of the world. Yeah.
- [36:32]
B
Raising my glass to you, my friend.
- [36:33]
C
I'm so glad we have gotten to know you. And let's keep talking.