A (2:29)

Hey, thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here.

C (2:31)

Before we get into these questions that are really thought provoking, I'm sure so many of us have had these questions many Times we want to get to know you. So I want you to kind of take us back. Take us back to little Jacob. Like, what was he like? Why did. How did he fall into this work? Give us some of your backstory.

A (2:48)

Yeah, for sure. The opposite of being quiet a lot. Like, I was always talking. I always had something to say. And so much that in school, I went to this magnet school that I had to, like, wait for, I think, two, three years to get into it. So my sister was there, so I got on the list, and it just took forever. But my mom made sure I knew that, like, that was the best school I was going to be able to go to in Augusta. So I get there in fourth grade. I remember toward the end of the year, like, honors day is coming up, and my teacher's asking me, like, you got all A's and B's except conduct, right?

C (3:23)

And I'm like, I can relate. I always got a check mark on the listening. Well, too much talking.

A (3:30)

Yeah. I think that kind of describes who I was as a kid. Like, I knew I needed to, like, learn. Like, I. When I was gonna get in trouble if I did it. And I enjoyed learning. And I knew I was lucky to be at the school that I was at because it was definitely better than the one that I came from, but still, like, why are we learning any of this stuff? So then I would start taking drugs or talking and having fun. And so I think just always been a kid that was curious, always had a lot to say, and always was trying to push it back on things that I didn't feel like, made sense. So as a kid, you know, I did it in ways where they would just take away my condo grades. Now I've done it. And one large way is just to, like, starting the organization.

B (4:09)

Yeah, I love that. That energy, like, is definitely how you show up in the world still today. My friend and I would love for you to connect the dots for us, because I think there's a lot of people listening. We definitely have a lot of founders in our audience, but I think we're all captivated by the story. And I'll say the spark, which is kind of just, like, alluding to, like, this path that you've had, but, like, catch us up from, like, leaving school to, like, starting Inner Spark, and you can give a lens to what the programs and stuff look like today.

A (4:35)

Yeah, for sure. So Inner Spark, we like to say, where have a school is transformed from the inside out by making them a place that kids actually want to be. I Feel like we hear a lot of. A lot of talk around, like, chronic absenteeism is a big thing right now. Like, kids just not coming to school. And in Los Angeles over the past 20 years, there's 50% decrease in enrollment. So it's like kids are just leaving. And then even the ones that are there, they're not coming to school as much as they used to. Like, really high literacy rates. I think, like, the last NAEP score was, like, the largest group of eighth graders that were illiterate since they started doing the test. And then, like, youth mental health issues are higher than ever. And there's a lot of different folks working on those issues. But then there's this author researcher I really like named Peter Gray. He talks about this study where out of all the places kids spend substantial amount of time, they're the most dissatisfied with school. And so it's like, all right, well, if they don't like the place where they're supposed to learn how to read, they're supposed to learn how to do math, they're supposed to learn how to communicate. Like, how can we expect them to do that stuff at scale if they don't even enjoy the place where it's supposed to happen? And we make them go there from 5 to 18, basically. And so Waiter Spark does is like, everyone else needs to keep working on those interventions because we do need kids that can write and do math. Like, I believe that just as much as anybody else. But we think, as so many people, like, philanthropy included, is skipping over the foundational step of, like, the environment in which all that is supposed to take place. So we partner with schools by going deeply and just to help the schools develop these systems where they can learn and adapt to the kids and the families and stop trying to make the kids and the families adapt to the schools. But then we also work with Loyola Marymount and we do professional development with three schools, trying to help them develop those same systems as well.

B (6:23)

Yeah, I mean, I'd hear you talk about, like, the depth that you go, and I definitely want the conversation to allow you to speak to this, because I would say in the general marketplace, just living in a capitalistic society, it's like, everybody loves scale. Like, we talk about it. Like, it's such an alluring thing from, like, more sites, more numbers. But I feel like your commitment to, like, going deep and recognizing, like, the transformative impact that happens when you stay in one place and you make a lesser, deeper impact, like, changes the trajectory of how y' all show up as an Organization. So I guess maybe walk me into your mindset around that, how you think about it. And then, yeah, if you want to share about the programs and the depth you've got, like, that's a great way to bring that home.

A (7:07)

Yeah, we kind of. I've learned this over the past, like eight years. We have been in a lot of different schools at any given time. And the most, like, there's so much friction within the org of like trying to do these low touch things across LA and trying to staff them, trying to get the curriculum, just trying to make sure it's flowing. And then you look back, you're like, what do we even really do? Yeah, the number of kids that we work with is super high. But what did we learn? Like, what changed? Who really knows? Because all of our time was spent just trying to make sure these things were staffed. And so, you know, when I think about scale, there's this pressure to scale and being all these different cities that you've never been, you don't know the neighborhood, you don't know the community. So that it could feel like your impact is spread across, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. And there's a lot of people doing that. So I just don't want to do what everybody else is doing. It's not novel. So what we want to do is just really be able to learn, like, what are the enabling conditions that make school a joyful place that kids want to come to? And then the, the way to scale it is by learning what that model is through two schools. And then we could take that and then we can go train other schools on how they could do their own version of it, because they know their kids, they know their communities more than anybody else. So we don't need to have a learning lab, you know, in every one, in every state that we're running, because we can never do it well. But within the lab, just so people can see how it works. It starts with this role called a Dreamweaver. And so their role is to like really get to know the kids, really get to know the families. And then they're using that information to basically help the school adapt. So one way they'll do that is through our weekly class that all the kids in the school come to for once a week called Igniting a Spark. And so we have a curriculum in there that's like super exploratory, like all project based. Yeah, the kids have a lot of freedom within the curriculum. But what the Dreamweaver will do is one Thing the kids are saying right now is they want recess to be longer. And it's like, okay, well we can't do that. But what we can do is show what happens when one we listen to you and to when you have more time to move and more time to play. And so for two months they could just take the fifth grade classes and be like, okay, well our curriculum will put that to the side. And we're going to spend these next two weeks working on more play and more movement stuff. So perhaps they will then like bring in because they're getting to the families at the same time. So there are families that like teach dance. Maybe like one's a coach. There's all, there's a lot of different ways you can move. And so they can help bring them in over the next eight weeks. So then now you're connecting the kids or the families or you know, they can bring in different nonprofits to come teach stuff. So they would do that for, for eight weeks. And over those eight weeks we're like studying what happens with the engagement, like what happens with the droid, what happens with attendance, what are the kids telling us? And basically using that to build a case for like here's what happens when the kids tell you you want to do something, you try this out. And then we take that to the principal who knows all this is going on by the way. But then we'll take it to the principal and we'll be like, hey, we know you can't make recess longer, but we did this experiment for the past eight weeks. Here's what we learned, here's what changed here and here are ways in which you could help to kind of scale that across the school so that then perhaps we could see these same change has happened school wide. And then the third part of the lab is we have a student led after school programs. So the kids will teach the kids research one day a week and then they'll work with either someone has expertise in engineering, health, justice or art. They'll pick whoever what they want to do within that and then they'll use what they're learning from that from the resident to address unmet needs in the school. So then maybe they'll start to come up with their own move nights with the families or maybe they'll design like something within the school that allows the kids to move or play. But then that really just allows the kids to come up with their own solutions to the stuff they're seeing that help the school adapt. And so that's like what's going on in the lab and the experiment could go straight, left, right, like it doesn't really matter. We're going to take the learning to the principal. We're going to share the learnings externally because what we really because again, we're trying to develop a model that helps schools adapt. We're not just trying to show that we have all the answers. And I think nonprofit is going to fall into that, that problem a lot.

C (11:07)

What you're talking about is building with community, not for it. And I love that you have completely shifted the paradigm to give power and agency to kids and allow them in their self expression to kind of say what works for them. And I also think that you are someone who tells the truth. And you shared recently on this really incredible LinkedIn post which we're gonna link up in the show. Not that you didn't hit your year end fundraising goal and instead of reframing it or softening in any way, you like, really told the truth. So I want to talk about like this transparency and fundraising because in this sector we feel so much pressure to only share our wins. Tell us more just about this experience and what would you share with other nonprofit leaders about listening and about like embracing that transparency even when it's not pretty?

A (12:07)

Yeah. In a time where there's so much like you don't know what to believe anymore. Whether it's AI, whether it's the news, like anything, it's so hard to tell what's the truth, what's not. Like when people can feel like you're being transparent and you're just being honest, it creates a level of connection and trust that they're not really getting too many other places. The world wouldn't look the way it is if everyone's annual report was true. Like too much is going on outside, whether it be you pick a thing, it could be housing, it could be food, it could be education, it could be mental health. Like these problems are so big, but you look at everybody and report like everybody's crushing it. Everybody's doing exactly what they told the grant maker they were going to do. So I also just don't want to contribute to this kind of, I think it's like a nasty feedback loop that really only makes the problems worse and it kind of changes folks perception of what's actually happening in the neighborhood and in the community. Like one example, I met this really, really cool woman at this conference. I didn't know who she was at the time and then we just kept talking. Come to find out she's like a major donor. And we met with her maybe, like, four times, listening, figuring out what she wants to know about me, what she wants to know about the org, getting her advice on certain things. And I was just strategic planning at the time. So she has a lot of experience in it. So it was also great. We ended up changing some of our model because of stuff she said and some stuff she recommended, and we didn't do it because it doesn't feel like the right thing to do. But, like, sharing all of that with her. She's giving us a gift next month. And she was like, usually it takes me 18 months to go through this process nonprofits, but this is, like, way faster than usual. And I think a lot of it is just because we were being honest with her from. From the jump.

B (13:49)

Thanks for modeling that. You know, I think that there's probably unspoken pressure. People listening probably feel that pressure to show up to perform. And I just feel like you're naming what. What we see, too. This is not the season for performance. Like, what's most helpful is to just tell the truth. And there's so much misinformation that, like, we're all dying to know what the actual truth is. So I think that that is not only a superpower, it's the way you build trust in this moment. And so thank you for modeling that. Thanks for leading that. It leads us into, like, authentic partnerships, which I think you are a, you know, proponent of, too, when we talk about community partnerships all the time here at the podcast. But I'm curious what your experience has been like, of the difference between, like, authentic partnership and something that just might look good on a proposal. Like, what are some of the hallmarks of real partnerships and transformation?

A (14:46)

Yeah, I think it's almost like a relationship, when there's a relationship. One, like, more recent one is even with our partnership with the Ideal Institute at lmu. You know, I didn't think you can easily fall in the trap of just, like, doing whatever it is the university does or, like, letting them run everything. Yeah. Just attaching their name to whatever you're doing so you can. You can look nicer. But with LMU or the Ideal Institute, they do professional development, and so do we. And so I was talking with Shannon, who runs the institute over there. We just talked maybe, like, three, four times. Just, like, really getting to know each other and getting to know what they do well and what we do, what we do well. And, like, through that conversation, we start to find out, like, oh, the thing they do really well is like school wide professional development and they train administrators, which is something we haven't done. But the thing that we do really well is like more intense coaching and then these learning cycles where we can share, we can take the teachers through the learning cycles, then we could quickly be sharing what we're learning. And so it's like, oh, put that together. That's actually like a really strong partnership and allows them to do what they do. It allows us to do what we do and, and we can learn from one another because eventually, you know, we want to be able to do school wide pd. Now we get to learn with someone who's been doing it for maybe like two decades and they get to learn from us who are doing this more like kind of tight, quicker feedback, feedback loops. So I think one is just like being able to build that partnership where you get to be who you are as an individual and as an organization in service of like the, what you set out to do. And then another one that kind of comes to mind is even our partnership with ISAB Inglewood, which is the first lab school. Like that's where I did the pilot of STEM to the future, like 2017. So to still just be in relationship with them all these years I think is really important. And it is not us trying to impart ourselves into school, it's us trying to be a part of the school.

C (16:32)

I think this approach is just so different and so nuanced and, and that is what I really, really love about it. And you had this sort of radical. I hate to say that it's radical because I feel like everybody should be doing it.

A (16:47)

It's okay.

C (16:48)

Yeah, but I'm, I'm like you talked about that we should be coming out of grants and partnerships with more questions than answers. And so I want you to like double click on that, tell us what you meant by that and how people can utilize like short feedback loops to build more trust than what could be built in this. Like glossy. I'm, I'm using this because John, I used to make John use UV coating all the time in our early days, like glossy annual. Like how do we get to having more questions? What do we do with them and what do we do with the feedback loop when we have them? Because I'm, I'm guessing this is going to deepen partnership. This is going to open communication, this is going to inspire trust. All of these things. Tell us what you've learned.

A (17:34)

The way I think I would explain this is probably give you all a scenario kind of see how you respond? There's a funder, right? And we could do like, do it two different ways, but there's a funder and they fund, they work in my housing. So they want to give people house. And first funders, like a reimbursement funder. So they're going to, they're going to pay, essentially they're going to pay you for every person that you can get housed. You know, on the spectrum of folks that are unhoused, there's going to be a group of people who are easy, it's all hard, but easier to get house. And then on the other end of the spectrum, there's going to be a group of people that are more difficult to get housed. Where do you think folks are going to spend most of their time if their money is tied to. So that's one example. And so we have, we've like neglected a whole group of folks and we haven't learned anything from there. So we'll come back to that. Then you know, that people could be like, okay, well that's reimbursement. That's, you know, only so many grants. You like that? I was like, all right, fine, regular grant. We know most foundations, like they're going to, the bigger the number in the grant, you're more confident, you're going to feel that you're going to get the money. And so I feel like either you're going to say you're going to just making up numbers, you're going to house 100 folks and then you're going to either spend your time trying to house the easier folks or if you don't do it, at the end of the day when you have to fill out your grant report, you may or may not say you house 100 people, whether you did or whether you didn't. But I think like when the goal becomes we need to change an individual, that's like not something a nonprofit can do. But I feel like the way found it, like none of us could do that. Just another way to think about it, and I'm gonna come back is like, you know, you can't have a goal for your partner, your kids or whatever to like love you more. Like you can't control that. You can just be somebody that's easier to love and they got to do whatever they want to do with that. But I feel like a non profit, it's like the way we kind of talk to funders, the way we talk to supporters is like we can make people love us. And like that's just not how it works, like, that's out of our control, but with the feedback loops, you know, if we're sticking on. On the. On the housing thing, instead of being like, we're going to house a hundred people, it could be like, hey, for these next two months, we know that a part of getting people in stable housing is building trust with them. So these next two months, what we're really going to do is focus on this process of building trust with. With folks, and then we'll take what we learn, and then we'll share it with. With folks who are working in the same space. Maybe it's housing, maybe it's other stuff. Like, whatever it is, this process of building trust is going to be relevant to people in your. In your field and outside of your field, because we know trust is a key component of relationships. And then you could go on from there. And now, like, you're not reporting back, like, hey, we made 100 folks. You know, they're highly trustful of us, like, whatever. But what you can do is like, hey, we went through this process of trying to build trust. Here's what worked, here's what didn't, here's what we're going to try next time. And as a result of that, now we're going to go do something else. Across those three schools that we're in, the facilitators are coming up with their own family communication system. And so the goal wasn't like, hey, Everybody, we need 80% of families opening a newsletter or whatever y' all saying, the goal is to develop a family communication system for your school that works, that allows us to, like, sure. Here are three different family communication system that work at these three different types of schools that we could share with people. But more importantly, here's a system that anybody could use to be able to learn. How do you build a system that's actually responsive to the families at the school? And then that's the thing you can scale because that people can take. And, you know, now we're creating, like, real research and development because through these systems, different, unique things can come out of it that are responsive to that specific group of people.

B (21:21)

Jacob, I'm completely obsessed with how you just walked us through that. And I just think this is the way, man. Like, it. It ties into some values that we uphold here. Like, from playing the long game is one of them. And I just think that's this kind of work. Sometimes you've got a really round number. I'm bad about round numbers. I love a good round number. The team knows this. I always pick these, like, goals that look great, even though they're probably not backed by, like, what actually matters.

A (21:47)

And.

B (21:48)

And so I think it's a recalibration. And I love that you're leading with this, my friend. Like, what a. What a great takeaway.

C (21:54)

I just say this as well. I think about those grant reports I used to complete back in the day, and they're so finite, and there is no room to talk about anything other than the thing. But I. I wonder, Jacob, just about this feedback loop piece of, like, adding another sheet of paper on the back that says, what we learned, you know, what went right, what went wrong, what we learned about it, what our hypothesis is, what our next steps are. Here's how we're going to do it. That would, in my mind, completely reframe an entire grant experience. And so, anyway, I just think that that was really, really genius, and I wanted to point that out to everybody.

A (22:41)

Yeah, I think that should be the grant application. I agree. Not, you know, what are you gonna. What outcomes are you gonna achieve? But, like, what are you trying to learn, and how are you gonna learn? If I had money to be giving away or I was a funder, that's how I would structure it, because I think through that process now, we're actually getting tangible things that one will have a impact on this group of people that the nonprofit is working with. But it can go so far beyond that because you're just learning, and, like, you can. You can control what you learn, and then you could share and other people can do stuff with it. So, to me, I think that's, like, what the grant application should be.

C (23:13)

Becky, I feel a big question coming into the community. I hope there's some funders listening who can give us some feedback on this,

B (23:19)

and hopefully some funders that are doing this that we could point lights to, you know, because I know, you know, there's. There's disruptors out there, too. Well, Jacob, I want to ask you about a moment of philanthropy. This is like a. The storytelling segment of our podcast. Since the first episode, we just are obsessed with these moments in life that, like, where we see generosity in action or we see philanthropy, and the moments that stick with us, whether they're big or small. What's one that you would take us back to?

A (23:45)

It actually happened recently. I remember during our annual campaign, we were trying to set these daily goals to help generate momentum. I think it may have been, like, I don't know, thousand dollars or something that day. And then when I Woke up the next morning. It was like, way past that. And I was like, a lot of people must have gave yesterday. And then I went to go look, and it was just one person. And I was like, who? I didn't know. I had never spoken to. She was just subscribed to the newsletter and liked what we were saying and connected with her. And then she gave. And then I sent her like, a thank you video because, again, there's so many different people doing work that she could give to, like, to choose us and don't even know me. Was. Was that said a lot. So I sent her a thank you video. And then we met like, a few weeks ago. And she was like, sending me really giving me really good advice in that call. And then I send her, like, this monthly email. She sent me some more really good advice. So, like, you know, it's only been three months, but it's about to start our give first giving circle. And so she even was recommending that and she was doing all these other recommendations. So that was like a more recent one. But it really stands out because I can already feel like helping each other and like getting to know each other and like building a relationship, which based on trust. I think that's super important too, because back to the conversation we had earlier, like, in a world where so it's hard to trust anybody or anything, like, those type of relationships mean a lot, and they go far beyond. And some funders do this at the foundation level. But that's also something I feel like a lesson to learn is giving the check isn't the job like, there's so much more to it? So I feel like foundations need to set themselves up where their program officers can do more than just write a check, but actually build relationships with the. With the nonprofit.

C (25:27)

Okay, you took the words almost right out of my mouth. The reason that I love that story that you just shared so much is because, one, I love a story about a lurker. Someone who's been on the fringes of a community or an organization. Maybe they're following your email, maybe they're on your social media, but they're not necessarily active and open. And this is a beautiful example of consistency is key and showing up and telling your true story and built trust over time. And then the currency that she gave, she did give actual physical current, which it sounds like it was a nice and generous gift. But I think the currency of her staying and pouring in and giving her expertise and opening networks like that is a compound multiplier for how I Want people to start looking at their community. It wasn't about the gift. The gift was the signal. And what you did was deepen the relationship. I think what I'm just basically saying is, Jacob, way to go. And I hate to say this because it means that we're wrapping up, but we're going to move into the one good thing. So we'd love to know what your one good thing could be. It could be a piece of advice or something that would help organizations move the needle today. What's bubbling up for you?

A (26:44)

You own the learnings. There's so many other things like that we can't control, like the outcomes. You don't own those. So much of that is so far beyond your. Your control. And like, to draw a straight line from your work to changing someone's life is like, way too simple. And these problems that we're working with are way too complex to have these super simple solutions. But what you can do is to be able to focus on learning, focus on sharing the learning and making sure what you're doing is actually like, responsive to the. Whoever your nonprofit is set up to partner with. And like, there's a way people could do that. Like, the main framework we base our stuff off of is called human learning systems. That's like these idea, these feedback loops. So I mean, that would be a good place, I think, where people could check out and start, but that really can start to shift your nonprofit and just be more authentic and true. And I think the, in the time we're in, like, that's what the community needs. And I think that's also how you're going to be able to build people who are going to support you in the long run.

C (27:42)

Amen.

B (27:42)

Own the learnings. I mean, that's merch right there too, Jacob. That's such a solid mantra. And I, I will say, like, practically speaking, I'll say we just came out of the We Are for Good summit and did like a debrief as a team. And I feel like that's something different than just like, looking at metrics. I feel like we took time to be like, what is this telling us? Like, what did those experiences, like, teach us so we could take the what's being taught and actually integrate it. Like, that's really not about the metrics as much as like, our growth through it. And so I love that practical application that we're kind of seeing over here too. So, my friend, how can folks connect with you? I know you're going to have a lot of people listen and want to like seek you out. Where do you hang out online? Where does Inner Spark show up? Point us to all the things.

A (28:27)

The newsletter, which is I know I referenced it. It's not like the typical newsletter. It's basically like this conversation, but a newsletter newsletter form. But that folks can subscribe@innerparklab.com podcast I'm on LinkedIn to Jacob Adams. Yeah, Instagram too. At Interspark Lab. One of the main. One of the main folks. Many places we're at.

B (28:52)

Awesome.

C (28:52)

Awesome. And we'd love to give anyone who comes onto the podcast and who is powering a mighty mission a chance to say, what do you need right now? What can this community do to support Inner Spark? How can we help your kids? What would be a one good thing that we can do for you?

A (29:08)

Amplification, I think is really key for us right now. I spent like the first seven years really just heads down trying to figure this thing out and now it's like, okay, well people need to know who we are. So if you listen to this, send it to 5, 10 folks. If you subscribe to the newsletter, forward it 5, 10 people. And then, you know, we'll, we'll take it from there so your folks can just listen and spread the word. That is plenty. So good.

C (29:32)

Amazing.

B (29:32)

You got new super fans in us, my friend. And thanks so much. Just the way you show your work very deeply.

C (29:38)

Keep going.