691. The Volunteer Strategy Gap (And How to Close It) - Nicole R. Smith, CVA

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Are For Good – Episode 691

Title: The Volunteer Strategy Gap (And How to Close It)
Guest: Nicole R. Smith, CVA, Executive Director of AL!VE
Hosts: Jon McCoy & Becky Endicott
Date: March 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this energizing episode, Jon and Becky welcome Nicole R. Smith to shine a spotlight on the critical gap between the intention to value volunteers and actual organizational strategy. Nicole, a career nonprofit leader and the first-ever Executive Director of AL!VE (Association of Leaders in Volunteer Engagement), shares her journey, insights, and practical solutions to truly elevate volunteer leadership. Together, they unpack how investing in volunteer engagement is a force multiplier for nonprofit impact, create a case for structure and systemic support, and offer tangible steps for embedding this mindset into all levels of organizational strategy.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nicole's Journey and Philosophy (02:35–06:14)

• Early Roots: Nicole grew up in a faith-based family where volunteering was simply “part of life.” She credits these formative experiences—and the adaptability of moving frequently as a military child—for shaping her passion.
  • Quote [02:54]:
    “You go to work, you volunteer, you eat. Pretty basic.” – Nicole
• Path to Volunteer Leadership: Her professional journey weaved from radio at Clear Channel (now iHeart) to running a nonprofit dance organization, then into marketing, and finally discovering her calling in volunteer engagement—a field she didn’t even know existed as a career path.
  • Quote [04:01]:
    “Nobody's running around going, ‘I want to be a volunteer engagement professional.’ But that's my goal.” – Nicole

2. The Volunteer Leadership “Strategy Gap” (07:39–09:09)

• Theory vs. Action: Nicole pinpoints a prevalent disconnect: most organizations verbally value volunteers but lack infrastructure, support, and actionable strategy to back that up.
  • Quote [08:16]:
    “Is there a budget line item to support your volunteers?...What support do you have for the person who's leading your volunteers?...And then all of a sudden, it’s crickets.” – Nicole
• Afterthought Syndrome: Volunteer engagement, she warns, is too often an afterthought instead of being strategically integrated from the outset.
  • Quote [09:09]:
    “The theory of knowing that volunteers are vital, but not turning that theory into actionable steps to make sure that they remain as such.”

3. Capacity Building: Structure and Support (09:49–11:57)

• Service Enterprise Model: AL!VE offers a “Service Enterprise” program that necessitates leadership involvement, demonstrating that unlocking volunteer potential is most successful when leaders are engaged.
  • Quote [09:49]:
    “If leadership is not involved, then everything good or bad trickles from the top down...we try to get in at the top level.” – Nicole
• Holistic Inclusion: Volunteers need to be woven into every aspect—fundraising, engagement, strategy, stewardship—reflecting their diverse impacts and connections.

4. The Role of Volunteer Engagement Managers (11:57–14:09)

• Organizational Backing: Nicole emphasizes the necessity of explicit, top-down support and recognition for the volunteer engagement professional. She advocates tying volunteer engagement directly to staff job descriptions and annual reviews.
  • Quote [11:57]:
    “It is imperative...having that top-down support is so important because...[it’s] a ripple effect...also vice versa.”
• Consequences of Neglect: Poor support can lead to toxic volunteer cultures and high turnover.
  • Quote [13:00]:
    “How come you can't keep volunteers? Well, because y’all keep being mean to them and they’re walking out the door and I can't say anything about it.”

5. Volunteers as Organizational Superpower (14:09–16:24)

• Multiplying Impact: Volunteers not only expand the team but drive philanthropy, community engagement, and brand ambassadorship.
  • Quote [14:56]:
    “If they are on fire and understand what's happening, they are everywhere...in the community, and it's like such an unlock.” – Jon
  • Quote [15:15]:
    “My easiest planned gift I ever received was a volunteer in the hospital... she wasn’t just watching from the sidelines, she was intimately involved.” – Becky

6. Structural Elements for Sustainable Volunteer Engagement (16:24–22:38)

• Key Must-Haves:
  • Dedicated support and professional development for volunteer managers
  • Investment in volunteer engagement infrastructure (e.g., databases, scheduling tools)
  • An organization-wide culture that values volunteers across all departments
  • Clear role acknowledgment and consistent advocacy
  • Quote [16:24]: “Your volunteer engagement strategy is only as strong as the person who is leading them. So if you do not have a strong leader...you’re going to have a toxic volunteer program.”
• Cultural Shift: True volunteer engagement is everyone’s responsibility, not just one person’s job.

7. Reframing Volunteer Value & Metrics (22:38–29:34)

• Beyond Vanity Metrics: Nicole argues that while tracking hours and number of volunteers is a start, organizations miss the wider impact—capacity expansion, leadership development, job creation, community belonging.
  • Quote [24:59]:
    “For every dollar invested in strategic volunteer engagement, organizations have seen a three to six dollar return on it.”
  • Quote [29:15]: “Those are the things that the numbers can't tell that story about...the connections that the volunteers make with each other who make them whole as people.”
• Volunteers as Multi-Currency Donors: Volunteers provide not just cash, but skills, networks, advocacy, and stories.

8. Action Steps: Where to Start (30:20–32:01)

• For Unsupportive Cultures: Find an ally, aim to get executive buy-in, and directly address misconceptions or past negative experiences.
• For Supportive Cultures: Invest in your volunteer engagement professional—offer development, tools, and leadership opportunities.
  • Quote [31:49]:
    “How do you expect somebody to lead without the tools? How do you tell somebody to go build a house and don’t give them the tools to do it and then... be like, man, you did shoddy work.”

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Notable Stories & Memorable Moments

The Power of Community in Volunteering (32:47–35:59)

• Nicole recounts her time at “Back on My Feet,” a running group where people from all backgrounds ran together, supporting each other through life’s ups and downs.
  • Quote [34:54]:
    “I feel like so many times people will go in somewhere to volunteer and they feel like they're saving people...and it’s like, you know, no...That doesn't mean that they don’t have something to give to this world...In that moment, I needed somebody to stand by my side, and he did.”

Transformative Kindness (36:01–36:50)

• Nicole shares an experience of being $1,000 short of moving into her first apartment, and her supervisor’s gift—along with the charge to “pay it forward”—became formative in her approach to generosity.
  • Quote [36:34]:
    “I'm going to give you $1,000, and the way you repay me is when you’re in a position to do so that you do it for somebody else.”

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Practical Takeaways & Advice

Building a Strong Volunteer Engagement Structure

• Support and invest in professional development for volunteer leaders.
• Value volunteers as core capacity (not “extras”).
• Measure what matters: impact, community, personal growth, not just hours.
• Culture trumps policy: Make volunteer engagement everyone’s responsibility.
• Story, kindness, and acknowledgment compound impact.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:35] Nicole’s early journey & calling
• [07:39] The strategy gap and misalignments in volunteer engagement
• [09:49] Capacity-building and leadership’s role
• [11:57] The necessity of supporting volunteer engagement professionals
• [14:09] Volunteers as organization catalysts
• [16:24] Essential elements for building sustainable volunteer structures
• [22:38] Reframing volunteer value and overlooked metrics
• [30:20] Action steps for organizations at different stages
• [32:47] Nicole’s story on the lived power of community
• [36:01] A story of transformative generosity
• [37:10] Nicole’s “one good thing” challenge

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Standout Quotes

• “Volunteers are the most important advertising that money can't buy.” – Nicole [12:54]
• “What you focus on develops, like a camera. If you are not intentionally focusing on that, it's being left in the background.” – Nicole [21:40]
• “A volunteer has all of the currencies...stories, skills, networks, not just cash.” – Becky [23:38]
• “Do a random act of kindness—and I’ll even raise you, do it for somebody who you think probably doesn’t deserve it, because they probably need it more.” – Nicole [37:10]

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How to Connect with Nicole R. Smith & AL!VE

• Website: volunteeralive.org
• LinkedIn & Instagram: @nicolearsmithnet

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This episode delivers an impassioned call to action—shift your volunteer strategy from afterthought to powerhouse, invest in your volunteer leaders, and recognize the multi-dimensional value volunteers bring. Nicole’s drive is clear: When you strategically support volunteers and those who lead them, you unlock capacity, spark community, and multiply your mission’s impact.

Transcript

[A]

That is one of the biggest disconnects is the understanding and the theory of knowing that volunteers are vital, but not turning that theory into actionable steps to make sure that they remain as such.

[B]

Hey, I'm John.

[C]

And I'm Becky.

[B]

And this is the We Here for Good podcast.

[C]

Let's get started.

[B]

Hey, Becky, what's happening?

[C]

My cheeks hurt. I'm smiling so big.

[B]

We've got a friend in the house. We're talking about one of our favorite topics, which is volunteers. I feel like volunteers are just a level of this work that just gets us reconnected to our purpose. It multiplies our team. It brings all the warm fuzzies, and also sometimes helps us get things done too. And it's something that's so misinterpreted and so misunderstood also that we, we want to shift some power around. We want to, you know, take today's conversation to redefine what volunteer leadership looks like from a supporting role to a strategic powerhouse. And speaking of a powerhouse, we kind of brought one of our own into the conversation today. I want you to meet our friend, Nicole R. Smith, cva. I got to put all of your details out there, so get the search engine optimization working, but I got to meet Nicole in person in Orlando at Impact Up. She was co hosting alongside our friend Arum.

[C]

Hi, Arum.

[B]

Ansel. And they have just cultivated a beautiful community of change makers there locally that are thick as thieves. And Nicole has taken on this incredible executive director role, the first in alive's history. And alive, for those of you tracking, is the association of Leaders in Volunteer Engagement. They are this national professional association dedicated to enhancing and sustaining the. The spirit of volunteering. The stuff that I was kind of leading into today by supporting and advocating for leaders in community engagement. So Alive is not just an organization, it's also a movement. So, so excited to unpack what that looks like. They're, you know, redefining job descriptions. They're influencing compensation. Thank you for doing that. Building capacity and ensuring that leaders who mobilize volunteers have that backing. They have the credibility and the influence that they deserve. So today we are really exploring what it means to elevate volunteer leadership, not just for the sake of the volunteers, although that's a good reason to do it, but for the long term sustainability of our orgs. And, you know, what's that opportunity that exists today? So, Nicole, it's an understatement to say we're excited you're here. Welcome to the podcast.

[A]

Thank you. I am thrilled and honored and so Excited to be here with y' all today.

[B]

We've known you a long time, but I want to know more of your story. I wonder if you would take us back for our listeners too. Like, take us to little Nicole. Growing up, what were some of the formative experiences of your life that led you into this aligned work that you're doing today?

[A]

So I would say grew up very faith based. So volunteering was built into our structures. It was like, what is your ministry or what is your calling? Or what is your, you know, what is your. And so I found several ways to match my love of what I do with being able to give back. So I am a dancer, so I was over several dance ministries and, you know, worked with people, you know, giving time on weekends and performances with kids. And it just was a natural, normal part of life. It's just something that you did. You go to work, you volunteer, you know, you eat. It's, you know, pretty. Pretty basic.

[B]

Sounds like a T shirt.

[A]

Yes. But like a lot of people who end up becoming volunteer engagement professionals, it was never something that I was like, oh, this is what I want to be when I grow up. Up. Right. Like you ask a kid today, they want to be a firefighter, a doctor, or a lawyer, but nobody's running out. Little kid is running around going, I want to be a volunteer engagement professional. But that's my goal. That's my goal.

[C]

Can we cultivate that? Yes. I want that to be a goal

[A]

that is like my goal. I want to make it so memorable and people understand what a beautiful profession that this is, that people, that little kids will run around wanting to be volunteer engagement professionals when they grow up. So I. My dad was in the military, so I moved every three years. I. So I learned how to be adapt, how to be adaptable and all those things. And I actually, after graduating from college, I landed in the business side of radio. I worked for iHeart before it was iHeart, when it was back when it was Clear Channel.

[C]

Nicole.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

I remember those days. I totally. We have a separate conference early 2000s. Yes.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I was in radio then, too. Yes, totally.

[A]

Those are some great days. So I worked on the business side, so I wasn't in front of the mic, but I was part of helping all the things that were taking place behind the mic happen. And in between all of that, because of my love for dance, I started my own nonprofit dance organization. And so we would teach dance, we would perform, we would do all of these things. So that was another aspect of nonprofit that I was familiar with because I was running my own organization. My mom was my first volunteer. Isn't that normal? Like, moms are the best, but also, people bring their families when they volunteer, right? Like, it's just that natural thing. So doing all of that, I was like, I'm going to go off and be a dancer. And then I got over that, and I was like, okay. I applied for a job in the marketing department of a nonprofit or arts organization. And from there, the volunteer engagement manager position became available. And I was like, oh, I could do this. It's just like organizing things. I could do this. And about two weeks into it, I was like, what did I sign up for? This is nowhere near as easy as I thought it was going to be, But I have fallen in love with it. I have found my calling, and I am just like, I could talk about it for days and hours on end and just shout it from the rooftops. And because I just so passionately believe in it so much.

[C]

I just think our stories are so interesting in the way they shape us. They shape our lived experience, our passions. You went from performer to producer to the fact that you're now not just. I think it's not enough just to lead volunteers, but what you do, Nicole, that I think is so nuanced is you understand why someone shows up. You help them understand their value while you're there. While they're there, and then you help them to keep coming back. And to me, that's a thriving volunteer program. So I want to talk about this leadership gap that exists for the sector behind our volunteer strategy. And no one knows this better than you, and we have positioned it as one of our, you know, our big trends and our shift for the year that volunteers are your core capacity. So we want to keep building on that. And I want to know, where do you most commonly see organizations misalign, like, their words and their actions around their volunteer strategy kind of dispel some of those myths that are actually creating some harm and not creating that really healthy journey that I talked about at the beginning that you are cultivating from the very beginning to the point where they come back. Talk to us about some of that misalignment.

[A]

Yes. So if you talk to just about any nonprofit organization and you ask them about their volunteers, they will be like, our volunteers are vital. We can't do it without our volunteers. Our volunteers are. They will, like, sing the praises of the volunteer. But if you ask them, is there a budget line item to support your volunteers? Oh, what infrastructure do you have to support the volunteers. What support do you have for the person who's leading your volunteers? And then all of a sudden, it's cricket. When was the last time your volunteer engagement manager was in a strategic planning meeting?

[B]

Ooh, ooh, That's a really good table. Who's got the mic? All the things.

[A]

And I think, you know, people don't. I don't think anybody's doing this intentionally. It's just one of those things that people are just not thinking about. Right. Volunteer engagement tends to be an afterthought. We're going to put all this together and then, oh, let's just see if we can get some people to come in as opposed to how do we design it in such a way that it's built in for people to be there, as opposed to it's here and now we have to go find. And so I think that is one of the biggest disconnects is the understanding, understanding and the theory of knowing that volunteers are vital, but not turning that theory into actionable steps to make sure that they remain as such.

[C]

Yeah, that's real.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, Nicole, love that you're putting this out there, making this conversation. Main stage. I think it's revolutionary. I think in this time. I keep saying this in every episode, but I'm like, in this moment in time. But it's so true that we're in a really unique inflection point and we are missing one of our greatest assets if we are looking at just dol. Common sense and not looking at the people, power, the connections and what they're telling us and listening and amplifying their voice. So I know you look into a lot of research through alive. Like, what are you seeing right now that org leaders really should be paying attention to regarding these opportunities?

[A]

Well, I think right now everybody is looking for capacity opportunities. They're looking for different ways to build capacity, and how can they do that? And ALIVE actually has a program that literally takes organizations through what it looks like to insert structure, infrastructure goals, helping to build strategic plans around what volunteer engagement looks like. And the thing that I love about this particular program, it's called Service Enterprise, but it has to be done with leadership involved. It has to be done with leadership involved. Because if leadership is not involved, then everything good or bad trickles from the top down. So we try to get in at the top level so that people understand that across the board and that it trickles down throughout the organization.

[C]

What a holistic way to include every single part of the organization in this Process, which by the way, volunteers are not this monolithic thing that just stands on the side and waits to be called in. Thriving volunteer organizations are built into everything. They're built into the fundraising engine, they're built into the engagement engine. They should be built into strategy, into stewardship on every single level. Because these are the people who want to be, be here because they believe so deeply. And we should put that belief at the center of what we're doing rather than off to the side. So I, I want to talk just about the importance of the role of volunteer engagement manager. Like someone who's actually doing the work. Not like we gave it to an intern or oh, we have a board member's wife who might be able to come in and manage it. It's like someone that is dedicated to it. So talk about the backing and the support they need, like especially from the executive leadership. What has worked well in your experience?

[A]

Oh, it's imperative, it's imperative because there is nothing like trying to implement a process or a policy. And the person especially, you know, if you are at an associate, associate or coordinator level and you're trying to do these things and you're trying to essentially manage up and they're like, well, no, that's okay, we don't have time for that because it just gets squashed and it's stopped right there. And I have to tell you, it is so disheartening because we're trying to do things to help to build capacity and come up with all of these ideas and it's just swatted down, just. But then volunteers are vital to the organization. But are they though? So having that top down support is so important because having it written into people's job descriptions. Right, Your annual review, part of that is based on how you've engaged volunteers. Now I'm not saying that every department will, every department should, but not necessarily every department will. You know, you can't, it can't always be, but in certain aspects, like how you're engaging, how you're bringing that person, and I think this is something that I said at the summit is volunteers are the most important advertising that money can't buy. If you are doing things well, they are going to tell others, they're going to invite their friends, they're going to invite their family, those people are going to invite their friends, they're going to invite and please, like it's, it's, it's just a ripple effect, but also vice versa. So having that support is vital because I've heard and have Experienced so many times that somebody goes to talk to a colleague about maybe a way that they handled or interacted with a volunteer and instead of getting the support, they. They sided with the. The person who just caused three volunteers to walk away from the organization. And it's like, well, how am I supposed to keep recruiting volunteers if you all can treat them any old way and they're walking out the door? You know, it's like, well, how come you can't keep volunteers? I was like, well, because y' all keep being mean to them and they're walking out the door and I can't say anything about it. So I don't know what you want from me.

[B]

Yeah, I. I love this conversation because it's honestly bringing me back to some of the most amazing volunteers Becky and I got to know in our career. We worked adjacent to a healthcare system for a decade, and volunteers are like a lifeblood heartbeat. Physically help run the hospital. Like, if they don't show up, you cannot do it. But what we noticed is that in building relationships. And I'm gonna go back to what we said recently in other episodes, like the simple things. Make eye contact, bring them into discussions, use them as strategic partners, remember their names, their hobbies, check in on them, those group of volunteers. I have chills thinking about the network that happened, the connection that happened, that turned into massive philanthropy in the dollars side as well.

[A]

Yeah, that's not.

[B]

But that was just one storyline. The belief, the backing, the telling patients, telling people walking through the hospital, like, if they are on fire and understand what's happening, they are everywhere throughout the organization, in the community, and it's like such an unlock.

[C]

Can I just share that? Asking. My easiest plan gift I ever received from someone was a volunteer in the hospital. I didn't even get through my spiel and I was going to have her pledge it out. And she was like, becky, I am going to do this because I have been watching this in action on the front lines and I'm going to pay it off this year. It was a wild moment, but I think that speaks to the fact that she wasn't just watching from the sidelines. She was intimately involved in that situation. So I'm going to give a shout out to Vanessa.

[B]

Vanessa.

[C]

I know you know Vanessa. Yes. Who taught me that.

[B]

Well, I mean, so you've got a table right here ready to turn the mic and be like, we really want to help build volunteer engagement that strengthens our sustainability. Like, Becky and I have witnessed it. We believe in that. I'm curious from your perspective, Nicole, what are structural elements that every organization really needs if they want volunteers to be that core capacity that we're talking about, that sustainable core capacity?

[A]

Well, I think one of the very first things you need to do is get some support for the person who is overseeing your volunteers. There are a lot of people who are leading volunteers for the first time. They, they fell into it like I did. Somebody leaves and it's becomes other duties as assigned and it just swapped in there. And people believe that like, oh, I've volunteered before, I can do this, listen, I can make a budget, but you don't want me running a finance a financed. So there is a skill to it. There's trainings and skill and support and all of these things that are existing that are out there that your volunteer engagement professional can access and have for help. Because your volunteer engagement strategy is only as strong as the person who is leading them. So if you do not have a strong leader, if you have somebody who is unable to have difficult conversations with volunteers, you're going to have a toxic volunteer program. People are going to keep leading, you're going to have a lot of turnover, all of these things. If that person gets training and support on. Yes, this is going to be a difficult conversation, but this is how you handled it. You're nipping things in the bud. If anything, you're pruning the toxic but keeping the rest right. I think one of the greatest things, the greatest challenges that I have seen for volunteer engagement professionals is most people, they're, they're, they're very kind. They want everybody to be happy and they don't want to have that conversation, but they don't realize that that conversation is what is poisoning their program. But they don't want to have that conversation. I don't want them to feel bad, okay? Yeah, but all the other people are. Or they want to have the conversation. But how do you have a conversation with somebody who won't have a conversation with you? I want to have this. They just shut down or they don't like. So what does that person do? Get them the support that they need. And I know I am very biased because I am out alive, but it's like there's training and support and other groups that you can talk to. Like how, how have you worked with volunteers that do this? How what has happened when you do this? We, we have like a presenter boot camp. And it's like because you have to constantly be in front of people, right? You're either speaking to volunteers or you have to speak in front of your colleagues for whatever reason. But maybe you're not used to speaking in front of large groups. Well, eventually, as a volunteer engagement professional, you're going to have to do it. Where do they go to learn that? But I feel like people get thrown into this role with no life support and they're drowning. And then when it doesn't work, it was like, oh, well, you know, maybe it wasn't meant to be. No, like if they would have just had a life jacket or a life preserver, they could have gone further. So that's the first thing I would say. Get support for the person who is leading your volunteers, get them connected, get them into a group that that's what associations are for, to help people out in their industry, which is why we exist for that reason. And then the second thing is invest in the infrastructure. So now you have somebody who understands and they can, they're having the conversations, they're doing all these things, but now they're organizing and scheduling and tracking hours and recording data in an Excel spreadsheet. Get them a database. Right. And then the last thing that I would say and it kind of ties back into the understanding, like from the top down, is that organizational culture, volunteer engagement is not just the job of the volunteer engagement manager, it is the entire organization's responsibility. And it goes back to like you were saying, John, like just a simple, like just saying hello or remembering a name or if I schedule a volunteer to meet with you and you're going to be five minutes late, call them and let them know you're going to be five minutes late. Don't just not show up. I mean, it takes a village to raise a child, but it also takes a village to cultivate a strong volunteer engagement culture within the organization. And at one of my organizations, it was so funny. It took me about three years to get there. Every time we did something, I'd be always be like, remember the volunteers? Remember the volunteers? Can the volunteers come? Can the volunteers come? Remember the volunteers room? And I remember the day when we were having like an all staff something. It was a celebration of an event that we had done and there was a lot of volunteers that were involved. And I got the invite to say, hey, Nicole, send this out to the volunteers for them to come. Before I ever had to say anything, I was like, I'm so happy for you.

[B]

My legacy accomplice.

[A]

Like, I still, like, I'm still like, oh my goodness. And it was like a light bulb went off and they, and they understood you know, because as the volunteer engagement professional, you're always advocating for that, for that person. Because that volunteer engagement professional is the bridge between the community and the organization. Because a lot of people in the organization, you know, if they're sitting in the office all the time, they don't have the opportunity to be out. The volunteers are the ones out in the community doing said thing, coming back, reporting back, helping with that, out, that outreach. Well, who's coordinating all of that? Who's telling them where to go, what, when to be there, making sure they have water so they're not passing out because it's 100 degrees outside, or not scheduling them because it's 100 degrees outside. You know, it's a vital bridge that if not taken care of, it could break. And now there's that break between what the community. Because nobody think about it, Nobody ever. And that's. And it's okay. But you never hear about the volunteer engagement manager, but you always hear about the volunteers. But somebody's doing something behind that. And so if as an organization you're not focusing on developing that, well, what you focus on develops like a camera, right? What you focus on develops. So if you are not intentionally focusing on that, it's being left in the background and it's not going to develop.

[C]

I think there's a lot of things here that I don't want listeners to miss. And the thing that it's brought me back to, Nicole, is that one of the things we can all agree on it is, is that it is good to be a major gift donor. It, it is good to be a major gift donor. You get that VIP experience, you get that hand holding, you get the most thoughtful gifts. Your impact reporting is so intentional. And I just keep thinking we are giving all this attention to somebody who holds one one currency, which is cash. And that's not to say they don't have other currencies. However, a volunteer has all of the currencies. And so if we could flip that on its head and say, what do we value here? We don't just value their donation, which most volunteers donate. The stats don't lie. But they are also going to bring in hands on experience, real world learning stories that they're seeing on the ground. They have a network effect in the way they move through the world, whether it's in their digital communities, whether it's in their physical space. I can tell you the two places my parents volunteer at, they wear the merch, they tell everybody about it. Yeah, I think that this is currency that really has to be lifted. Because if you are providing an experience that helps someone step into the brightest light for your organization, you're going to get all those things anyway. That plan gift basically asks for itself at the end. You know, you don't have to convince them. I will never forget Vanessa telling me, you don't have to convince me. I see this every single day. And my answer is yes. And that to me is the great unlock. And I want to talk about metrics for a second here because we just talked about like the vanity metrics of the things we know we want to track. And I want you to help lead our listeners and our leaders through what we should be measuring and evaluating in terms of volunteer engagement. But I also want you to tell people what they're leaving on the table. What are the metrics we don't see, that we don't think about, that are not intuitive, that you have noticed have provided a very big unlock.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I'll start with just the ones we do see really quick. Right. The things that we see, but we may not understand. Well, for any organization that is working with their volunteers in a very strategic manner, for every dollar invested in strategic volunteer engagement, organizations have seen a three to six dollar return on it. So that's no small pennies. Right. And organizations that we have worked with saw a 60% increase in volunteer hours, which is. Well, and first of all, and you know what that is too sometimes just, that's just learning how to put systems into place so that they track their hours so that they could have been doing that all that time, but they just weren't tracking it. And now you see that. Right? And then 80% have increased just in volunteers in general. Putting those things into place, processes into place, cultivating all those types of things. But then there's the things that people don't think about. Right. It's. Well, because our volunteers are engaged and they are passionate about what they are doing. We had one volunteer that used to work at the post office that was just like, give me anything to organize. I was like, you want to organize the closet? She was like, yes. And I know to some people it was just like, oh, that's menial. But we could never find anything whenever we went into the closet because everything was everywhere because we didn't have time, she went in and mailbox that thing. But because she did that, it created capacity for me to get other things done. That is a measure that we often leave on the table. And sometimes people want very intentional, like high stakes. I want to look at data and come up with reports for you. And some people just want mundane. I just want to click a button and I don't want, I want it mindless because all day I've been doing intense stuff. So again, like you were talking about earlier, knowing your people and what they want. But in any case, it has created capacity for me to get mission critical things done that I may, it may have taken longer to do because I had to stop to organize a closet because in order for me to schedule the volunteer to go where they needed to go, I couldn't find it because from the last event we just threw everything in there because we didn't have time. So things like that. And then there's like leadership development. A lot of times volunteers will come if they're in between jobs, if they are looking to learn a new skill and they come into an organization, they learn skills and they end up elevating their skills. And then they want to get more involved because their confidence has built. And now you have volunteers leading volunteers and there's. That's the just all beautiful. Some of them end up getting hired at the organization because they've been there so long and they've been doing such great work, a position becomes available. So now that is not only elevating, it's creating capacity, but now it's also creating jobs for people. There's a lot of those things that people leave on the table that they don't really think about that are so valuable. And it's things that the numbers can't tell that story about. And the last thing I'll say is just the effect that you have on the community, right? Not only so much what you're doing in, in the community, because that's part of the mission, that's what you're doing. But the connections that the volunteers make with each other who make them whole as people. I'm going to try not to cry. So one of the organizations that I worked with, the lady, she used, she and her husband used to go to the theater all the time. And then he passed and so she couldn't go to the theater for a really long time because it always reminded her of him. And I don't remember what happened, but somehow she ended up coming to a volunteer orientation and got back involved and she was able to connect with other women who had lost their husbands and they became great friends. Not so it was great for their soul. Yeah, it was great for their own connection. They were giving that to the community, but they were finding community themselves. That's something that 345,000 hours doesn't touch. You've just changed somebody's life. Yeah, right. By also changing the community. Those are the things that people leave on the table that they forget about when it's just about sterile numbers.

[B]

Yes. I mean, you can feel us through the screen, like affirming what you're saying, because community is everything. It's one of the rally cries here. And that I love that you're lifting. The community of volunteers is its own dynamic that you can't value, but it is a superpower waiting to be unleashed for meaning and purpose in people's lives. So I love that so much. I guess as we start to round out, which I'm grieving that we're rounding out, I'm like, what's. If somebody listening is like, I want to invest in our volunteer structure, this function in this next year, where do you go first? Is it that? Is it a person? Is it a tech? Is it policy? Is it culture? Or maybe it's all of it. But where would you say start here for someone wanting to get into this?

[A]

If, for whatever reason the volunteer culture isn't great at the organization, find an ally and see how you can get in front of the executive director to have this conversation. Listen, play this video, reach out to us, listen, that's I'm all about, like, woo, let's talk. Because I've seen the value in it and believe in it so passionately. And most people, the attitude that they have towards volunteering is because either they don't understand it or they had a bad experience in the past. Right. And that's why I'm like, well, you had a bad experience because you didn't have a strong volunteer engagement manager who had support and systems to know how to work the organization so that you wouldn't have had that experience. And then the other side is if the culture is already there and that's really not the biggest barrier, then invest, Invest in your volunteer engagement professional. Get them the support, the trainings, the everything that they need. Build them up as a leader to be able to lead others. Because like I said, they're only as strong as a volunteer engagement professional. How they say, like, you're only as strong as your weakest link. And I'm not saying volunteer engagement professionals are like the weakest link, but how do you expect somebody to lead without the tools? How do you expect, how do you tell somebody to go build a house and don't give them the tools to do it and then, and then be like, man, you did shoddy work.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

You gave me a pencil and a pencil sharpener. Like, not a screwdriver. Like, what. What. What was I supposed to do? So there. Choose your own adventure. But those are the two things I would say.

[C]

I just think you understand what it takes to create not just thriving cultures where the bottom line feels strong, but thriving cultures where there's so many hands that are helping move the mission along that it feels like it belongs to all of us. And I think that feels like a big shift for volunteers. And you've listened to the podcast enough, Nicole, you know we value story here. We're wondering if you would lift a story somewhere in your life where someone has shown you extreme kindness, generosity. Could be a story of philanthropy, could be a volunteer that changed your life. What's a story that's bubbling up for you?

[A]

I have two, so I'm going to. I'm going to say them quick. So the first one, one of my favorite organizations that I've ever worked for and volunteer for, it's called Back on My Feet. And what we would do is we would go out and work with people who were experiencing transitional housing. And so we were like, well, if you feel better about yourself, then your confidence builds, and as you are trying to find a job and all those types of things, but the better you feel, the better, like, everything else will go. So we would get up super early in the morning, like 5:30, 6, 30 in the morning, and we would all go run for, like, anywhere between one to three miles. And it was one of the best organizations, because what I loved about was the epitome of community, right? You had people who were doctors, lawyers, students, people who were maybe down on their luck. They might have been in transitional housing or rehab, whatever. But when we all gathered that morning, none of that mattered because we all had a shared goal, and it was to go run and come back, start together, finish together. We all have a common goal. And so there was one particular person that I was running with, and he was, like, working up his way to mileage, right? So he would maybe run one mile and then walk next to. And then the next time it would be run two miles, Just. Just working his way up. And so he was a little bit slower than the rest, which is no big deal. So there was often days that, ike what I could tell he was struggling a little bit. I would slow down and I would run with him. And like, I'm here, you know, I don't have to talk to you, because I couldn't Talk to you, because I'm running. I can't talk and run at the same time. But, you know, I'm just going to stand back with you because I'm here for you. We're going to do this together. And so I remember one day in particular. I don't know if I had steak the night before. I don't know what happened. I love where this is going. Just I don't know what was going on that morning. And that particular day, he stood back with me. He was like, you've always stood by my side when I was struggling. Today, I'm here for you because I can see you're struggling. And it was like the epitome of what community is, because I feel like so many times people will go into somewhere to volunteer and they feel like they're saving people and like, oh, I'm here to do this for you. And it's like, you know, no, somebody might be down on their luck, but that doesn't mean that they don't have something to offer. That doesn't mean that they don't have something to give to this world, A talent or something that they make this world a better place to just because they fell on hard times. And in that moment, I needed somebody to stand by my side, and he did. And I will never. You see, I still get teary because it was just like in that moment, I mattered too. It wasn't just what I was giving. It was like, hey, I see you too. And so anyway, so. So the other one.

[C]

Good luck following that one.

[A]

My. I'll never forget one of my. My old supervisor. I was a little bit younger. I was a single mom, and I was really excited because I was getting my own apartment for the very first time and going through all this stuff and you know how apartments are and how they get all crazy and they're like, oh, yeah, there's this other fee that you need. And when I say I already had the mover set, everything, everything, everything turned out. I was $1,000 short. And I just. I was devastated as I was talking to my supervisor, and she was like, well, this is what we're going to do. She's like, I'm going to give you the thousand dollars, and the way you re repay me is when you are in a position to do so that you do it for somebody else. Those are the people who have shaped me.

[B]

What a beautiful story. I mean, yeah, this conversation is just, like, threaded with, like, the work that really matters. And it just. It hits differently. Thank you for Stepping into it. Nicole and I want to ask you for your one good thing. It's something we ask all of our guests at the end. Like, what's a piece of advice or maybe something that's bubbling up from this convo that you want to leave us with today.

[A]

Do, like a random act of kindness and I'll even, I'll even raise you. Do it for somebody who you think probably doesn't deserve it because they probably need it more than somebody else.

[C]

You know what, John? I've just been sitting here thinking about, because you can hear it in Nicole's voice, but, like, when she talks about her volunteers, her whole face and carriage changes. Like, her body reacts into it. And I just think if we could take some of that energy, all of us and how we know how good it feels to be seen, if we can put some of that energy into volunteers, I actually think it's one of the biggest force multipliers in our work, hands down. Hard stop. I mean, you literally just gave the case for, you know, a dollar turning into three to six dollars. And I think that love, that appreciation is going to compound and bring more to your organization. More volunteers, more story, more gratitude, more funding, more funders, you know, and partners to come in. And I just think if you want to know my one good thing, it's start there. If you can infuse that into your culture, it's going to shift everything. So I just want to thank you, Nicole, for modeling that in the way you show up, in the way you go about this work. How can listeners connect with you? Where do you hang out online and how they can connect with your work and all you do for volunteers?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. If you are a volunteer engagement professional or, you know, somebody who is or work with somebody, you know, go to volunteer alive.org you will find everything there. You'll find everybody that you need to connect there, including myself. But I am also on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn and, and Instagram, and my handle is nicolearsmithnet across all social media. I just, I'm passionate about supporting those who need it because I feel like volunteer engagement professionals are like a hidden gem.

[C]

Yeah, they are.

[A]

And they need, they need to be, like, brought to the surface so they can shine.

[B]

You've definitely done that today and every day, my friend. Thanks for being here. We think the world of you. Such a good time rooting for you.

[A]

Thank you.