← We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits
We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits
701. 93% of Funding Gone Overnight: A Case Study in Crisis Leadership - Jennifer Rupp
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Hey, friend. Before we get started, we wanted to invite you into our global gathering. Four times a year, we bring the We Are for Good community together for one day, one focus. And this Impact up, it's all about storytelling. Impact up story is happening on Thursday, May 14, and we'd love to have
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you there because the stories you choose to tell have the power to change everything, and we want to help you tell them better. So join us online from noon to 1:30 Central Standard Time for a free virtual session, including a keynote with storytelling phenom Afdel Aziz and a roundtable conversation with four amazing nonprofit leaders. Then that evening, in nearly 50 cities around the world, we're gathering with local meetups to keep the conversation going in person.
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You can find a meetup near you or join us virtually@weareforgood.com impactup what starts here ripples.
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Everything in the world says if you lose 93% of your funding, you're not going to be here in December of 2025. And I didn't have a lot of hope at 4am on April 3, 2025. But when we celebrated or commemorated the anniversary of it, all, 56 of us said that's what we have now because of each other and because we've lived this and walked this road together. You know, we have hope.
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Hey, I'm John.
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And I'm Becky.
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And this is the We Here for Good podcast.
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Let's get started.
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Becky, I see you with that smirk. What's up?
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Hi.
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I do. We have got somebody pretty incredible on the podcast today, and we're talking about the arts. Gosh, it's like a good day on the podcast.
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I met my new friend here a few weeks back, and it's my honor to introduce you to Jennifer Rupp. She's the executive director of Michigan Humanities. And I want to ask you a question, friends. What do you do when 93% of your budget disappears overnight? Jen didn't panic. She acted with conviction. And as executive director of Michigan Humanities, it's one of 56 state humanity councils serving 83 counties in the beautiful state of Michigan, one of our family's favorite. Jen had saw this coming. So she pulled down funds in time and made the hard calls, shrinking from eight staff to three, going fully remote, and began this work of reimagining what Michigan Humanities could be. On the other side, y', all, this is a story of legends, but this is not just a survival story. Jen spent her career at the intersection of democracy, story belonging. Can you feel the kinship that's happening in this room. She has run everything from an international performing arts nonprofit to building free and inclusive public humanities programs, all while uplifting untold community stories. And at the heart, she just believes that when division is the crisis, connection is the strategy. We are going to double click deeply on that idea of connection. We're excited to hear the whole story and there's just so much here that is applicable to wherever you're listening from today. Jen, welcome to the podcast. We're just a little excited to have you here, my friend.
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Well, I am super excited to be here. Thank you so much.
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We are storytellers like yourself, and we like to know the human behind these larger than life kind of storylines. Would you take us back to some formative moments of growing up and what led you into this work?
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That's a really good question. And I always get the question of kind of what is. What has been your path to get to where you are today? When I speak to undergraduates at universities that are in humanities programming or, you know, future nonprofit management professionals. And I think like all of us, it was a really windy, twisty road to get here. I've always been drawn to the arts. I wanted to be a teacher from the time that I could remember playing school with my stuffed animals in my bedroom and was just always drawn to working with people. And so went to college and got a degree in public history, which is, you know, telling people stories. It is creating oral histories, it's curating museum exhibits, it's capturing towns histories and preserving that. And just one of those stories where you get out of college and you're ready to tackle the world and then they say, you know, you really need a master's degree and a PhD with that. Well, that wasn't right away in the plan. So kind of found myself in corporate America for a little while and then found myself having two small children and kind of really looking at what do I want to do with my life living in the small town that we lived in. I. There was one day I was just kind of leafing through our lovely little local paper and there was a job posting for the executive director of the historical society. And I was like, oh my gosh, like I can do that. I went to college to do that. You were born for that, you know, and it was one of those part time executive director jobs. Air quotes. But definitely, you know, as they say, baptism by fire. Got my start in nonprofit management. I had no idea what a budget was, what a 990 was, what a financial statement was. But you know, What? Let's do this thing. Let's, you know, run museums and run volunteer programs. And I found myself running three historic sites, two town events that incorporated over 400 volunteers. And so really got energized into doing that work, did that for about three years, and then was approached by another nonprofit after I had co led a really big fundraising campaign in our town to save our local landmark. And they approached me and said, we're looking for someone that has a passion for arts, is a good fundraiser, and would be interested in a full time executive director position. So again, one of those things where it was like, sure, this sounds great. I was the only staff and didn't really know at that time what that would truly mean. And so kind of walked into an organization that was running an $82,000 deficit. It was spending a GR a year ahead of its time. You know, all those questions that I know now as, you know, 20 years in the business to ask when you interview for a job, but then just kind of found myself saying, okay, well, we're going to solve this. We're going to figure out how we're going to get the organization in the black, how we're going to increase, you know, individual donations. You know, the paradigm shift for performing arts just isn't there yet. Right. We know performing arts can't charge market value for their product. People just aren't going to pay $95 for a local symphony ticket, even though that's really what they need to charge in order to have the money that they need to be able to run their organizations efficiently and pay their performers what they deserve. And so I really kind of looked at that and said, we need to think outside the box. We need to figure out how we can become sustainable without relying on foundation funding. When we hear about arts organizations kind of struggling or going under, it's because a lot of their eggs are all in one basket and they're kind of at the whim and very vulnerable with foundation funding. And so how do we shift the paradigm on arts funding? And it's concentrating on people, and that really is the business of nonprofits. We're in the business of people. And how do we help people really connect to organizations and feel like they have autonomy with, you know, how that organization is engaged in community, how it operates. And so through that, I launched a fundraising campaign that concentrated on the people that are passionate, those 3200 individuals that came to our concerts every year that I knew were passionate about the cause. And so all of that was just trusting your gut. Trusting your heart because your brain is going to convince you that it can't be done. But when you rally and you put the power of people and the power of passion behind your mission, you know you're always going to be successful. So after I did that, I saw a job posting for a program officer position and I thought I could give money away instead of raise it. Like that's. I would love to do that. I would love to be on the other side of the table. And so that's kind of what got me to Michigan Humanities. You know, it was exciting to think about taking what I had learned in a local nonprofit and an international nonprofit and saying, wow, now we can apply this statewide. And I'll get to talk to Nonprofits in all 83 counties and hear about the work that they're doing. And if, you know, we can't fund them, we know the funding world is pretty small. We can make those connections to get them the support that they need. So, yeah, I started there in 2017, and then in 2021, I was presented the opportunity to serve as interim president and CEO. And then I appointed applied through the national search and In March of 22, here, exit.
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Yeah, Jen, I mean, what a, what a journey. I, I think each of us has our own winding journey in this work. And I, and I thank you for your work in the arts. My mom runs a fine arts academy. I've just been in it my whole life. And I still remember my arts elementary teacher having this sign on the wall that said, like, art enables us to find ourselves and lose ourselves at the same time. And just think that is the joy of where we can self actualize. And I just, I value that you have come into this with a spirit of building differently, but leading through a crisis is totally another animal. And I want to get back to this crazy stat. I mean, take us inside that moment with you a little bit. You lost 93% of your budget. You went from eight staff down to three. You went fully remote. What happened and what made you move so quickly?
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Right. So I did not have getting a personal email from doge on my 2025 bingo card. I woke up on the morning of April 3rd to my phone just buzzing off the hook on my nightstand and, you know, opened up and just saw email after email from my colleague saying, check your spam folder, check your spam folder. This is it. And so opened my spam folder and there it was from an undisclosed Microsoft account. It wasn't even a formal government email that notified us that all of Our grants had been terminated as of the day before. So effective April 2nd. So we had no recourse. We were locked out of our grant portal. We couldn't access any of our documents, our reports. It was terminated.
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So, Jen, to give context, it was, it was in response to an executive order that was stopping the funding of this grant. Is that right? Is that what it was connected to?
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Yeah. We had kind of watched DOGE go through a lot of the federal agencies. Everybody did, right? They went through the Institute for Museum and Library Sciences. They were at the National Endowment for the Arts. Then they went to the National Endowment for the Humanities, which is where we get all of our funding from, where kind of, you know, an arm of them. And so DOGE entered the National Endowment for the Humanities in late March. And so we had seen what had happened at the other agencies that they were trying to cut costs and looking at these executive orders and kind of looking through the work that we did and trying to kind of weigh compliance. And I know by now a lot of people have seen the DOGE videos of those testimonies of how they used AI to kind of go through and make those decisions. It was really hard. It was hard to watch those videos even a year later. So we weren't left with a lot of answers at that time. We just had these emails that said, we're sorry, your funding has been terminated. How our federal awards work is that when we are awarded our grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities, the money sits in the treasury. We can only draw down what we can spend in 48 hours. It is not like when you think about, you know, oh, this nonprofit got $1.5 million, that's not sitting in our bank account in Michigan, it's sitting in the treasury in Washington, D.C. and so it literally would be like if someone cut off your bank account and said, you can no longer access any of the cash that we tell you that you have. Like your balance is sitting there showing you how much money you have, but you no longer can access it. And so for an organization like mine, where we, you know, we're very dependent on that federal funding, for 52 years, that has been the model. We are charged with stewarding federal funding to the underserved and under resourced areas of Michigan that the National Endowment for the Humanities can't always reach. And so that effectively stopped that work. And so it was probably 4 o' clock in the morning that we're all sitting on email. I think by 7:30 in the morning, I had sent an email to my board, just letting them know, we don't have a lot of information. We don't know if these grants are going to come back. And as of, you know, 367 days, we still have not received any federal funding. We're still sitting here today with no federal funding. So, you know, you take kind of that first 24 hours, that is shock. But then, you know, you have to pivot and, you know, you have to kind of look past the crisis and figure out, especially as a statewide organization and as a federal affiliate, we have hundreds of hundreds and hundreds of partners in the state. In a normal year, we would grant out over $600,000 to of small organizations. And so, you know, I had to kind of take a breath and say, we have to be standing at the end of this, like that's our responsibility. Because when it's time to rebuild, we have to be there to help. We are the leader in public humanities in the state of Michigan and people are going to be counting on us. So that began the process of immediately saying, okay, how much cash do we have on hand? What programs do we have to stop immediately? Which unfortunately was all of our grant programs. There was no way I was going to grant out money to small nonprofits and then have to claw it back. I never wanted that to happen. And then it was deciding, you know, how are we going to message this to the community? It was really important to me that we could be as transparent as possible with our community, with our board, with my team. You know, in a time of crisis, it does no one any good to be kept in the dark. All it does is increase fear, anxiety, all of those what if questions. So from day one, I decided I'm gonna be as transparent with my team as I would want someone to be with me so that we're in this together. And I look back now and I hope that it built a lot of trust. You know, we do really vulnerable work. And so it's really important to me to take care of the team. And we had really open conversations about what are our non negotiables through this. And so, yeah, it's been a really, really hard year. And you know, every nonprofit we know goes through life cycles, right? We ebb and flow there, you know, becomes times where you kind of hit that high point. But then a couple years later, you're facing kind of that time to innovate and reimagine. And so that's kind of how I viewed it. I was like, okay, well, this isn't how I would have planned this life cycle, but this is what we're being handed. And so we're gonna, we're gonna make this work. And so that's, that's what we have been trying to do. We've been trying to persist over the past year and come out of this hopefully stronger, even more intentional with the work that we're doing and hopefully deepening our relationships with a lot of our partners during all of this.
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I mean, Becky, this is something I've heard you say a lot in the last couple of years especially, but I think it's so present and you're doing this so well, Jen, is that you're telling the story of now, you're telling the story of what's being experienced. Because the headlines are exhaustingly difficult all the time, but they're also headlines. And I think you're giving light. We've had other conversations that bring to light what's the downstream impacts of that? What does it actually mean to a community that this is filling in gaps for people? Could you kind of give lens to what that looks like in terms of programs like what fell, what was dissolved, like a sense of that, or even what was canceled?
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Yeah. So we were just coming up to opening our spring round of our humanities grants, which are $20,000 grants that they're big grants, especially to some of the smaller organizations that we work with. And especially that time frame in Michigan is kind of the quiet period. Museums really open their doors when the weather turns nice through the summer and the fall. That's when they really ramp up their programming. That's when gate receipts are higher. And so a lot of our grants that we do in the fall and the spring kind of shore up some of those, some of those operating expenses. So that was something that was felt really quickly within our community. We have always been a funder that is not a one off funder. I've always believed and something that has always frustrated me in the nonprofit world, that funders will fund a project and once the grant is done, they walk away. And I think that sets up nonprofits for a lot of trouble. A lot of times you'll build capacity within a small nonprofit and they will all of a sudden have more people coming into their venue or they'll, you know, have all of this capacity built through marketing and social media and they're getting more money in the door. But if that project isn't sustained or there aren't resources for several years following that, that capacity can sink a nonprofit really fast if someone's not there. So you know, we have been someone that has funded organizations multiple years in a row as projects have launched, as they've grown, as they've started to kind of wind down in that life cycle where they're like, okay, this is now sustaining. We don't have to have a lot of outside help to make this happen. So we had organizations that were counting on that spring round of funding. We were faced with cutting programs. We do a statewide read program called the Great Michigan Reed, where we distribute over 10,000 free books and have over 300 organizations that partner with us, where we bring the entire state of Michigan around one book. We tour the author around the state, we have discussion questions, literature guides, classroom guides. And we were looking at having to do that with 60% less funding. And so, you know, that program, we had to pivot pretty quickly that was going to look different. Like, these were immediate questions. You know, we bring in traveling exhibits. What does that program look like if we only have $25,000 to run it on, which is a quarter of what we usually have? And when we were making that decision, we didn't even have that. You know, we were looking at, we don't have, we don't have money. Yeah, it was, it was a big shift for us to really kind of pull back and do some really core introspection into what programs do we have to have survive. What programs can we put on the back burner? What programs do we know, unite people? What programs will allow people to come together, connect, gather, talk? Because we knew that if you can bring people together, that brings empathy, mutual understanding, it humanizes people. And at a time when we are so polarized, that was really a priority for us. How can we get people to come together? And so Great Michigan Reed was a non negotiable. Museum on Main street was a non negotiable. These were core programs, legacy programs for us. Each program has run for over 20 years that we knew partners were familiar with, comfortable with, and could easily pivot with us. And so we were so, so happy to be able to pivot the Great Michigan Reed with all of our partners. And everybody kind of grabbed our hand and they helped us, they helped us do it. And we're actually wrapping up that program with our final author tour in two weeks. So that's been great.
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We're still able to do that. Like, I want to live something you said, because I was thinking it the whole time and then you said it. And I was thinking that every program that gets gutted, taken away, minimized, I want everybody to Think about that's less human connection. That is less sharing our humanity, learning about our differences, learning about our commonalities. I just think books, the arts, music, like these things bring people together. Food, hello. You want a big table with a lot of people because we want everyone to feel like they have a space. And so I just, I want to commend you for fighting for the things that you could fight for when you were put in an impossible position. And I wonder what you would say to other nonprofit leaders out there about what this season taught you about crisis leadership, that you couldn't have learned any other way than like walking straight through it. What would you say?
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I would say you have to trust your gut in your heart. You ultimately know as the leader of your nonprofit what needs to happen and what is most important. What is mission fit? You have to stay true to your mission and your values. That is the guiding light through everything. If you stray from that, if you try to pivot in a way that tries to shove your circle programs through a square hole because you think that's what that funder wants, it's just, it's not going to work. You're not going to stay true to why your non profit has been there the entire time and why it's successful. You have to trust your heart, your brain will talk you out of it. There were so logical brain, right? That logical brain at 4am placed some really nasty tricks that is like, you can't do this. Everything in the world says if you lose 93% of your funding, you are not going to be here in December of 2025. But you know, my favorite John Lennon quote is, in the end, it'll be okay. And if it's not okay, it's not the end. And so the whole time you have to hang on to hope. That is the antidote to all of this, is hope. And I didn't have a lot of Hope at 4am on April 3, 2025. But at the when we celebrated or commemorated the anniversary of it on Friday, you know, all 56 of us said that's what we have now, like, because of each other and because we've lived this and walked this road together, you know, we have hope. So lean on colleagues, ask questions, be transparent with your team. But in the end, you, as the leader of your nonprofit, you know deep down in your heart what needs to be done.
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Dang, what a, what a beautiful answer. And it comes with a different kind of gravity because of what you've had to walk through, my friend too. Like as you kind of talked about this network of people working on humanities throughout the state of Michigan, like, I feel like y' all have just locked in together, and it's such a core to your way you show up is creating belonging, creating gatherings of bringing people together. I know you're working on something pretty cool right now in the background for a gathering. What's the vision for that? And what do you think the nonprofit sector typically gets wrong about how we bring people together?
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So we're working on an initiative. It'll be a three year initiative called the Great Michigan Gathering. And you guys are kind of getting a sneak peek into that. And so a lot of folks always say to me, you do community reflective, community conversations. You have to get people talking. We need to have the great conversation about democracy.
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And.
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And I really started thinking about this during 2025, and it hit me in the car as I was driving to a team meeting after we had been remote for a couple months. And I thought to myself, we have to work on getting people just to be in the same room together again before we can have super hard conversations. Like right now, we have keyboard warriors. We don't have people that are able to sit across, you know, the table from one another. When people ask me why public humanities are important, I say it's because we have gone from front porches to back decks and fenced in backyards. We have built our world where fence row conversations aren't a thing anymore. You don't see your neighbors walking down the street every evening with their families as you're sitting on your front porch. We have isolated ourselves to our back decks and we're fencing in our yards. And so we're automatically not in community like we used to be. And so we've got to get back to that. We've got to learn how do we come together in our communities? How do we build those villages again? Because that's where that support system comes in. And so, you know, I was thinking, we have hundreds of nonprofits that do this work all across Michigan, even organizations that don't work with us yet. There are people doing the work of gathering people together and building that community. What would it look like for Michigan humanities in a very reduced capacity? Right. Because during that time, I had to reduce our team by over 60%. We're no longer in a physical office together anymore. So how can we leverage all of these relationships and networks that we have built and stewarded over the past 52 years? How can we uplift the entire state in one movement of Getting people together. And it's going to have to be a multi step process. We can't just say, all right, we're going to get everybody together and get everybody talking. We're going to have to move through some phases. There's going to have to be a year where we really concentrate on awareness and connection. Right? We have to be aware of who we are and what our values are and what our community stands for. And then as we kind of move out of that phase, we need to move into this understanding and sharing piece. Can we understand other people's journeys and stories? And in return, are we willing to be vulnerable and share our stories and histories and paths with other people to create that humanizing? And then from there, in year three, I think we'll be ready for that truth and growth piece. Like, then I think we can really start putting the rubber to the road and having those hard conversations about what does it look like to rebuild, to reconnect, to, you know, bring back this resilience? Because I think there's going to be a lot of repair work to be done. But that is not work that we can just jump into right away. And the other thing that I, that really hit me as I was thinking back to, you know, the pandemic. When there is a crisis and we come out of a crisis, or when we're in a crisis, where do people lean? They lean on arts and culture organizations. During COVID we leaned on music, on Zoom Productions. You know, everybody was watching movies or reading more or baking more. Right? That's arts and humanities and culture. So I really envision, when we get through this, people are going to be turning to organizations like Michigan Humanities, like a lot of these community organizing groups right now that are, that are just kind of starting to say, where do we go? How do we do this? And so the Great Michigan Gathering is my hope for building those resources in community over the next three years so that they're ready. It's not our job as Michigan Humanities to insert ourselves into community. It's our job to connect communities together that are doing similar work and help people on the ground with facilitation training, with resources, with how to have these kinds of conversations so that they can build these networks within their communities. And so, yeah, that's what we're going to do. And we're going to take our two core programs. Those are going to be at the center of it. Museums on Main street will be this year and Great Michigan Reed will be in year two. And then in year three, we're going to launch Community Conversations and a new traveling exhibit that is meant to build this momentum and build this movement of gatherings so that we can get back to a place where we know how to be in a room together, we know how to be around a table together, and we can get back to civil discourse.
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I just think building this in real time out loud. And I will say co building this in real time out loud with your staff, with your partners, with your community members, with your concerned citizens. To me that is game changing and I want to commend you for it because John is right telling the story of now, who also allows us to reflect back to it and say this is how far we've come. And I hope you know, Jen, that just by virtue of being here, you give people hope. The fact that your doors are open still gives us hope. The fact that you were able to coordinate this great Michigan Reed is hopeful and the fact that you keep going is so supremely hopeful. And so I just want to commend you because John, it's really giving me vibes when we talk to Katie Heighten over at Essential Partners. And if you all haven't gone back to that episode, it's 6:27. But this is a nonprofit that does nothing but go in to highly contentious environments and build trust across divides through listening. And the dialogue is never about winning, ever. It's about understanding and you don't have to agree to make progress. And that is what you're proving right now, Jen. And I think what will be the beautiful arc of this story is one that you stayed and you got busy immediately and the people that have led you to really this first year, that first really tough season. Thank you everybody. But the second part of this is that whatever comes on the back end is going to be so community built, it's going to be so beautiful because so many more hands are going to be involved and are going to feel like I shaped that and a time where it could have collapsed. I raised my hand. You made some lemonades out of this. And I can assure you that it is going to put hope and possibility and resilience into the hearts of so many people who listen to this episode. So thank you for what you're doing. And of course we celebrate story around here because we believe that it is the lifeblood of connection. So I want to pass the mic back to you and ask you what's a moment of generosity in your life you'd like to share?
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C
We did a program when I first started with Michigan humanities back in 2017, I got handed a program called Third Coast Conversations. And it was community conversations in 18 different communities around Michigan that all centered on water, Michigan's relationship to water. And it wasn't too long after the Flint water crisis. And we were doing, we were doing work in Flint and we were working with a group of youth who really wanted to mobilize and do something to help their neighbors in Detroit whose water had been turned off. And so these youth led community conversations. They went to city council meetings, they mobilized, and they got neighborhoods full of houses, got their water turned back on. And for me, that is the power of people. That's why we do what we do and why it all comes back to if you can connect and talk and rehumanize the issue, that's when change happens and that's when you can really make an impact in your life community. So that, that one has always stuck with me. And when I maybe start to get a little dark or have a little self pity about, you know, what's happening, I just remind myself, like, you have to remember those really passionate youth in Detroit that were not going to stop until they got their neighbor's water turned back on. And yeah, that, that, that story will stick with me for, for the rest of my life.
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A
What a conversation. What a story. Thank you for coming into this house. We got to ask you for your one good thing. What's a piece of advice or maybe a mantra that's lifting for you today? You want to share?
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So I'm going to go back to something we kind of already touched on because this was instrumental early in my, in my nonprofit career was to kind of flip that funding triangle. 85% of your money comes from individual donors and we spend 10% of our time on those folks and we spend 85% of our time chasing that 10% at the top of the triangle. The minute you flip that, the minute you spend 85% of your time on where 85% of your money comes from and you mobilize those folks and you bring them into your nonprofit family, that's where the heart work happens. And so that's my piece of advice when I am guest lecture for fundraising or I'm talking to young professionals, chase the people, don't chase the money. That will always lead to more success and sustainable success. And it's hard work. It's really hard work. But brave hearts to the front, that's what this work calls for.
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B
I can see why you're so successful, my friend. I can see why you have built a Nurturing community. And we just want more people to find. So tell people how they can connect with you, how they can connect with the organization. And, and then at the end, we kind of want to know, is there something this community could do to help you right now?
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C
Well, you can find us. Our website is michiganhumanities.org we're also on Instagram and Facebook and of course, we would love for more people to find us on those platforms, you know, to share, to share our stories. But also we do a lot of story sharing for our partners. So that just increases all of their. Their lift if we have more people following us. I love when people connect with me through LinkedIn or just drop me an email through our website. I am always willing to jump on zoom calls or phone calls or chats to just brainstorm with folks. So that's a great. That's a great way to connect as well. And then, you know, right now what, every state has a humanities council. So if you're in Michigan, you can help Michigan humanities by either, you know, donating through our website, uplifting what we're doing, going to events at the humanities organizations in your town, and, you know, do that in your state as well. Every humanities council right now can use lots more friends. And so just being on here and being able to tell this story, you know, there are many, so 56 similar stories in states and territories all over the United States. So donate, help us tell our story. Uplift the people that we have helped uplift for the last 52 years. And you know, we're going to do this and we're going to do it together.
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A
Hallmark of a community builder, that she's lifting all the other.
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B
She literally lifts everybody else. I really do think that was a beautiful call to action. I'm totally going to give to the Colorado Humanities Council just because you asked me to. I just, just think that this is a great call to action for all of us. If you can't make a gift show up to an event like your attendance and your word of mouth helps.
- [39:18]
A
Such a rich conversation. Jen, always a delight to see you. Thanks for being here.
- [39:22]
C
Thanks so much for having me.
- [39:25]
A
Hey, friend. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you find yourself looking for a place to stay connected and keep learning between episodes, I hope you'll come and join us inside the We Are For Good community. Yeah, it is free. It's full of incredible nonprofit leaders like yourself, and it's now an app in the Apple App Store and Google Play Store. So you can take this community with you wherever you go. Head over to weareforgood community.com to find us. We cannot wait to see you inside.