Gather At The Well: Is Your Workplace Actually Toxic? Self-Study, Burnout + the Courage to Stay or Go - Elandria Jackson Charles, Lindsey Fuller, and Naomi Hattaway

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Gather At The Well – Is Your Workplace Actually Toxic? Self-Study, Burnout + the Courage to Stay or Go

Podcast: We Are For Good Podcast – The Podcast for Nonprofits
Host: Lindsay (The Teaching Well)
Guests: Elandria Jackson Charles, Lindsey Fuller, Naomi Hattaway
Release Date: December 2, 2025

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode is a deeply reflective and practical exploration of workplace well-being, the difference between discomfort and toxicity, the internal and external roots of burnout, and the hard but hopeful questions around whether to stay in a challenging work environment or make the leap to something new. The conversation centers especially on the nonprofit and social impact sectors, where passion for the mission often collides with systemic dysfunction or personal depletion. Through stories, tangible tools, and somatic practices, the hosts and guests model what it means to “gather at the well”—to nurture wellness, connection, and clarity for nonprofit professionals and everyday changemakers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Why This Conversation (00:03–04:45)

• The nonprofit sector is rife with burnout, moral injury, and questions about organizational versus individual responsibility.
• Lindsay frames the episode as a dialogue distinguishing between discomfort that can lead to growth and structural harm that leads to depletion or trauma.
• Highlight: “I don't want to have to heal from employment. I don't. I no longer consent to that.” (A/Lindsay, 02:24)

2. Self-Study as the First Step: Tuning Inward (07:07–13:15)

• Self-study isn’t just reflection; it’s a tool to design recovery and catch misalignment early.
• Naomi shares how her own journey through early menopause heightened her awareness that emotional stress manifests physiologically.
  • “My burnout…looks like overdoing and overcompensating. For some people it means pulling way back…mine means do even more.” (C/Naomi, 09:13)
• Alandria advocates for a daily inquiry: “As soon as you open your eyes…ask yourself, what is the best fuel to support my dreams today?” (B/Alandria, 10:25)
• Lindsay introduces a practice: “Notice, externalize, mindfully act.”

3. Recognizing Burnout in Real Life (13:15–16:06)

• Burnout isn’t a permanent state; it comes in seasons—sometimes linked to major life stages (postpartum, menopause, caretaking, late diagnoses).
• Naomi: “There's another stage…where your parents or those that cared for you are aging…that can desperately impact the way you show up for work.” (C/Naomi, 14:55)
• The “sandwich generation" phenomenon—caring for both children and aging parents—adds unique stress.

4. Reclaiming Agency & Structuring Well-Being (17:53–23:31)

• Both guests offer strategies:
  • Block out calendar time intentionally (“Don’t try to schedule a 9am with me.” – B/Alandria, 18:07).
  • Rethink how meetings are conducted (walking meetings, less video, shorter blocks).
  • Name and fiercely protect breaks (“My incredible executive assistant renamed my lunch as self-care in parentheses…and I felt so vulnerable.” – A/Lindsay, 19:51)
• Naomi shares: Naming open days as “empty days” instead of “CEO day” or “out of office” transformed her rest: “Just the naming of it as what it needs to be is so powerful.” (C/Naomi, 22:12)

5. Somatic Practices for Perspective & Regulation (23:31–25:46)

• Lindsay leads a “zoom out” body-mind practice to create space for clarity before big decisions.

6. External Factors: Decoding the Workplace (28:38–34:18)

• Naomi distinguishes misalignment, dysfunction, toxicity:
  • Misalignment: “Feels like confusion…competing priorities. Fixable if core values are shared.”
  • Dysfunction: “Broken systems. Structure is the problem, but intent is still good. Burnout is likely, but culture isn’t actively harmful.”
  • Toxicity: “Active harm—power abuse, manipulation, gaslighting, silencing dissent. Creates trauma, hypervigilance, crisis exits.” (C/Naomi, 28:38)
• Alandria’s systemic vs. self framework:
  • Systemic: “You feel you’ll experience harm if you bring your full self. Values touted but not lived. Toxicity is permitted or rewarded.”
  • Self: “Constant energy depletion, sacrificing other areas of your life, inability to rest or sleep.” (B/Alandria, 31:59)

7. The Myth of Consulting as the Cure (34:18–38:50)

• The guests push back on the notion that self-employment is an easy fix for organizational toxicity.
• Naomi: “If you’re not willing to address your internal challenges…all you’re going to do is set that same stuff up in your own business.” (C/Naomi, 35:46)
• Alandria: “Being out on your own exacerbates some of the things. You can literally end up replicating…the toxicity.” (B/Alandria, 38:23)
• Advice: Before leaving, engage in self-inquiry, talk to a coach or therapist, and—when possible—exercise your power by providing clear feedback to your organization.

8. Discernment: Stay or Go Checklist (39:11–41:10)

• Naomi’s Questions:
  • What is it costing to stay?
  • Why are you staying? (Commitment, guilt, exhaustion, mission-attachment)
  • Can the situation change? Do you have the power to impact it?
  • Who benefits from your staying, or might benefit from your leaving?
• Alandria’s Questions:
  • What is your gut, truly, telling you?
  • Can this space actually hold your brilliance?
  • Which version of yourself (the one who stays or leaves) would you be most proud of?

9. Practices & Affirmations for Clarity (41:10–43:54)

• Lindsay’s “Visual Confirmation Practice”: T-chart method on “What’s pulling me to leave?” vs. “What’s calling me to stay?”
• Affirmations:
  • Lindsay: “I trust my body to tell the truth before my burnout does.” (A/Lindsay, 43:54)
  • Naomi: “Leaving can be my best leadership. I can honor what is and still choose what’s next.” (C/Naomi, 43:55)
  • Alandria: “I was made to walk in peace and clarity. Stepping away makes room for my brilliance.” (B/Alandria, 44:03)

10. Closing with Critical Hope (44:11–45:45)

• Alandria: “If it’s not good, then God’s not done yet. Period.” (B/Alandria, 44:39)
• Naomi: Hope is remembering “I don’t have to do it all. Someone else has done some of the parts already, or is planning to.” (C/Naomi, 44:59)
• Lindsay: Hope that “we have self-determination, and our spirits are such powerful compasses inside us…when we grow our capacity to tune in and listen, a path emerges.” (A/Lindsay, 45:39)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Self study is not something you do once and you figure out. It’s something we have to continuously engage in.” – Lindsay (A), 14:14
• “If you’re not willing to address your internal challenges…all you’re going to do is set that same stuff up in your own business.” – Naomi (C), 35:45
• “Can this space hold the full scope of your brilliance? And which version of you would be most proud—the one who stays or the one who leaves?” – Alandria (B), 40:44
• “Hope isn’t naive...it is choosing to believe that repair and rest are still possible, even in the mess.” – Lindsay (A), 44:11

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Timestamps of Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Welcome, episode framing, guest introductions | 00:03–02:27 | | Settling + somatic breathing practice | 02:28–04:45 | | Self-study – practices & stories | 07:07–13:15 | | Burnout’s seasons & role of life stages | 13:15–16:06 | | Calendar, routine, and boundary strategies | 17:53–23:31 | | Somatic “zoom out” body practice | 23:31–25:46 | | Breaking down misalignment, dysfunction, toxic | 28:38–34:18 | | Consulting/freelancing – myth or solution? | 34:18–38:50 | | Discernment checklist – stay or go? | 39:11–41:10 | | Affirmations, reflection practices | 41:10–43:54 | | Critical hope – closing round | 44:11–45:45 |

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Summary Flow & Usefulness

This episode is a must-listen for nonprofit professionals, educators, changemakers, and anyone reckoning with workplace harm or personal depletion. It reframes “burnout” not as an individual flaw, but as a phenomenon with personal and systemic roots—one requiring both self-study and collective action. The conversation is practical, validating, vulnerable, and aspirational. Listeners walk away with concrete practices, profound questions to aid discernment, somatic exercises, and most importantly, a sense that critical hope—and a better way of working—is both necessary and possible.

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Useful Links:

• weareforgood.com
• theteachingwell.org
• Connect with Naomi Hattaway and Alandria Jackson Charles on LinkedIn for further resources and coaching.

Transcript

[A]

I'm Lindsay and it's time to Gather at the well. We're on a mission to microdose wellness, create human centered systems and retain our greatest asset, our people. We believe it's time for podcasts that teach moving beyond thought leadership and towards change leadership. Join us and our friends at We Are For Good as we model the way with concrete examples from the field and gain tangible tools because it's possible to build adult work cultures we don't need need to heal from. Let's get into it. Welcome back. Welcome back. Glad to have you at Gather at the well. I'm Lindsay, your host and joined today by two incredible leaders in the field. Today we're talking about something that so many of us are quietly carrying the tension between our work and our well being. If you've ever wondered, is my workplace actually toxic? I'm going to add the question should I jump into consulting work or felt that slow creep of burnout that makes even the things you love start to feel heavy? This conversation is for you. We're exploring that line between what's uncomfortable and what's truly harmful and really how to cultivate some discernment between staying to repair and choosing to release. And we'll be looking at both sides. The internal study of how burnout shows up in our bodies and our stories and the external study of how workplaces can either sustain or deplete us. All right, so these queens that have joined. Naomi Hadaway is an expert guide to organizations and individuals navigating workplace transitions. Known for her leaving well framework that blends strategic visioning, organizational development and community care. Let me say we also have already run our mouth multiple times together. When we are together on panels and or in podcast episodes, it feels like the conversation that never wants to end. So. So I'm so grateful you're here. And Alandria Jackson Charles, hey. Founder and Chief Joy Officer at Ayoka Partners where she helps Black women leaders and their organizations reimagine leadership through rest, sabbatical care and joy infused coaching. I was so hyped to meet you in these LinkedIn streets. Folks commented on my podcast post and were like, you should know. We had like a 20 minute conversation. I was like complete. Come on the show. We need you. So welcome to you both.

[B]

Thanks so much.

[C]

I'm excited for this conversation.

[A]

Same it's time for some good trouble. All right, so together in today's episode we'll be exploring some big questions and topics. All the juicy things that listeners have been messaging me about is your workplace actually toxic or are you just exhausted? Maybe both. We'll get into it. How do you tell the difference between discomfort that grows you and harm that drains you? This is one that constantly is coming up for folks. It's like everyone and their mom is burnt out or in a toxic, oppressive workplace. Is that actually true? How do we know? How do we know when to stay and when to go? And how do you find hope inside of hard things? Because, Lord, the world feels hard. All right, it's going to be a good one. We're going to pop in. But first, let's take a moment to get settled. And offer a quick, somatic getting us into our body before Truly, you are in for a treat. We'll just take three deep breaths here. First, adjusting your vertebrae to be aligned in an alert but relaxed posture. Breathing in through your nose and out through your mouth. Beautiful. With an exhale longer than your inhale. And that noisy out breath that tells the parasympathetic nervous system it's time to relax. All right, so let's jump in. Throughout the series, I have been exploring the power of the pause recovery not as a reward for burnout, but as a design principle. And Truly, I say it so much, but we spend so much of our life working. I don't want to have to heal from employment. I don't. I no longer consent to that. So I'd love to hear both of you kind of presence yourself. How are you arriving to the conversation today as humans, not just as professionals? Alandria, I'll kick it off to you first.

[B]

Great. So first, let me say it is a true pleasure to be here. Your listeners already know what a treat you two are together. So I'm just really excited and grateful to be in conversation today. I'm arriving feeling rooted and grounded. I actually spent some time in nature this morning, and I've been reminded of how the elements help bring you back to yourself. So just sitting by running water, having the sun literally just shine on my face for an hour and a half was incredible. And so I'm feeling very nourished.

[A]

Come on, that sounds exquisite.

[B]

It's awesome. I live 10 minutes from a state park.

[C]

And you use it.

[B]

And I use it.

[C]

That part. I live 10 minutes from something and we don't use it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think for me, I'm arriving in a place where I have really been prioritizing little things like making my coffee the night before so that I can't set it on a timer cause I don't have an alarm clock. But like, all I have to do in the morning is step out of bed. I put my slippers next to my bed, so I put my feet directly into my slippers. I go hit the button on the coffee pot, and then I spend some time outside. I've been doing morning pages lately, and that is, I don't know that I would say as rooted and grounded as your showing up, Alandria, but I am feeling. I'm feeling very good about just my energy. How about you, Lindsay?

[A]

Yeah, I'm on this kick with y'.

[C]

All.

[A]

I was, I mean, herding cats this morning, getting all the kids to school, if I'm being completely honest. But one of the things we've been talking about a lot at the teaching well is nature deficit disorder. And just how many folks in this country are actually vitamin D deprived and are not getting enough time outside? And so I've really been in a microdosing wellness practice of not wearing my sunglasses during my morning commute. There's about an hour loop of dropping kids off because I was reading that when we always are covered when we're outside, then actually we're not benefiting from the harmony of our circadian rhythm. And it's just all the things. So I've been letting the sun hit my face and it is helping with my nighttime rest as well. So I'm playing with the sunlight too. I'm feeling good.

[C]

It's good.

[A]

Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you for both presencing yourself. If you've been tuning in and. Or I know in conversations with both of you, I've mentioned kind of the practice of self studies.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But wanting to really explore this idea of how do we tune in to the information from our body, from our brain, from our mind, from our spirit and attune to that data to say what is needed in this season to actually restore myself. So I'm curious what your thoughts are around how we can leverage self studies as more than just reflection, as like a tool for designing recovery, for noticing when our systems are out of alignment before we hit full burnout. Naomi, I'd love to hear from you first. How has self study shown up for you in this season, and what has it helped you see or shift?

[C]

It's such a good question. I have realized, as I've done some reflection, that I've lived most of my life in a posture of being of service to others. And one of my love languages is acts of service. And so it's really about the actions behind the existence of the things that matter to me most. Which are love and respect and support. And to me, the actions of service then undergird or underline or really show that I do either love, respect, cherish, or support you. And I have done so much of that, whether it's parenting, nonprofit work, volunteering, running for city office, I didn't win. But doing all of these things in an effort to be of service to folks. And then I went through menopause, which pretty early in 2018, and I all of a sudden was more aware of my body. I was way present to how my body was reacting to my service. And I started realizing like, oh, when I feel in my head that I, like when I would say I'm feeling bitter today, I'm like, oh, it's showing up in my blood pressure. When I feel like I am annoyed by someone, it would show up like my, my brow forever furrowed, you know, like I just was more able to stop and realize, like, oh, this is actually living inside my body. And so my self study then also expanded when I built my consulting agency. And I was like, oh, these feelings that I had then are now starting to creep up again with my clients. And I know it's not my clients. And so that's something I'm excited to dig into today is like, is it the workplace or is it you? Because for me, my burnout and I'm. I've been transparent with folks. I'm. I'm in a phase of it right now, but it looks like overdoing and overcompensating for some people, it means pulling way back and doing not a lot of anything. My burnout looks like do even more. And so I've been really trying to prioritize myself in that self study of rewiring my system. So I'm out of scarcity mode. So that idea simply of setting my coffee up for myself means all I have to do to give myself what I need. That hot cup of coffee in my hand. It's less about the consumption, it's more about taking the moment. I create my grocery list now around what I want and not around what my kids might have needed. Um, so it's just been an interesting thing to also practice no and literally what that feels like on my tongue. Because I have been born and raised to always say yes. And so it's like, how does it feel to say no? And what's my instant reaction when I say no? Because often I'm the one that self sabotages my no. It's a work in progress. It's a work in progress.

[A]

Lord, you done struck a nerve already. Come on, Alandria. I see you nodding your head vigorously.

[B]

The first thing I want to acknowledge, Naomi, is the ebb and flow of burnout. Like, you said it very quickly, but you're like, I'm in a season. I just think that's so powerful to like, name. I'm in a season where this is true. Now I have tools and I'm doing the things to get out of it. And so I just want to thank you for just saying that. So the reason I was nodding so vigorously is because I gotta do my own self study if I dare to support other people, to find rest, to lead with joy. And so one of the practices that has been hugely, hugely helpful for me, that I just can't recommend enough, is a daily inquiry. And so it is. As soon as you open your eyes in the morning, ask yourself, what is the best fuel to support my dreams today? And there's something about asking that question and answering it in a way that centers you, prioritizes you, which, by the way, is going to benefit others. It's inevitable when you're cared for, when you center yourself, others are going to benefit. And so let me just give an example because I know we want to be practical. So imagine if the answer is communing. That could mean communing with yourself. Is it meditation? Is it journaling? That could be communing in nature. I just talked about spending time at Sweetwater Creek State Park. That could be communing with others. You could be like, oh, I'm going to join this virtual event that's going to be really dynamic. I'm going to learn a lot. I'm going to be with values line. People might be like, I'm going to go to book club tonight. And so there's something about having that intention that allows you to anchor yourself throughout the day, where you're making choices about where you go, how you spend your time. That is, again, I'm not ashamed to say, revolving around you because those that you lead and that you love will inevitably benefit from it.

[A]

Yeah, this is rich. The stress management sequence that we teach in the teaching well is notice, externalize, mindfully, act. And I, I want to just bring that forward for a moment because what we see in a lot of our clients, whether they are in schools and district offices or in nonprofits, is that first, we are in the service industry and social impact sector, so disconnected from our well being, so disconnected from our bodies, because the mission pulls us out of ourselves to do something greater than Ourselves by design. Yeah. It is very difficult for folks to understand somatics. Right. Mind, body, spirit, and to reorient, to combat the numbing that we've been socialized, conditioned and celebrated for engaging in. And so once you can notice that you're in your burnout season, then you've got to externalize it because we're like, then especially for women, we just keep it in our head.

[B]

Yeah. Push it down.

[A]

And you said like I'm feeling bitter. Okay. Well, you know, resentment, bitterness, a lot of the unpleasant emotions are actually repressed and we need to either journal them to your point Alandria, or we need to speak to someone and talk therapy or we need to be in a social environment where we're safe to with psychological safety to express ourselves and then we get to mindfully act. And so the tools, when we talk about a self study, it's actually moving through those three phases. Can I notice where I am and what my body and brain are communicating, what my spirit is telling me? Because that's often with workplace trauma. I'll say when I've known I hit my boundary is when my spirit was like, mm, mm, not today, like time to go. Right. And then how do we engage in that work? The other piece I just wanna double click on is this notion of seasons of life. We see so many first time moms working in schools who come back and are expected after six weeks to just be ready to teach 30 tiny humans. And, and they're in postpartum recovery, their hormones are spiking, their mental health is shoddy, they're having separation anxiety from their baby, they're physically healing. But it's not just that stage. Perimenopause, menopause, the amount of clients, myself included, late stage diagnosis. For me it was ADHD where I'm like, I'm sorry, I have to completely relearn who I am and grieve so much of my life where I didn't receive support. So I just pathologized myself as this is my personality flawless. But like actually it's the way my brain is designed. Self study is not something you do once and you figure out. Right. It's something that we have to continuously engage in.

[C]

The other Lindsay, really quickly before you go on, I think there's another stage there that's very invisible and it's the opposite side of caretaking where your parents or those that have cared for you are aging. And we just, we don't talk a lot about that. And that is something that can really so desperately Impact the way that you show up for work if you're also doing that. So it's. It's caretaking of any kind around that. It's. It's a lot.

[A]

Yeah. We talk about the sandwich generation right now, where we're bidirectionally caregiving. Right. For our elders and young ones often. Oof.

[C]

It's a lot of that question about is it work or is it your environment?

[B]

Naomi, I'm glad you brought that up because I just spent time with a friend of mine who's caring for her aging parents, and she described, you know, lovingly just what awaited is and how she's having a hard time balancing herself in the context of that. But Lindsay, when you were talking about the seasons, you know, it just made me realize, like, how important it is to stay curious about what you need and what tools. What worked last season might not work this season. So continue to evolve and adapt your toolkit to meet you where you are.

[A]

Exactly. And I think that one of the other ways, because it's so resonant, I think all of us probably identify as service leaders as one part of our identity. And something that's really shown up for me is also this idea that I am the expert of myself. I compost the idea of trying to be an expert in any field. I don't need to prove that I'm a forever learner. I'm a teacher, so by design, that's my role. But I am an expert on myself and I've really been encouraging my team. We just invested in every teammate getting a hundred different, like biomarker, physical health screeners in the teaching. Well, and none of it's going to be reported back to the organization. It is a gift to the squad for their service to others. Because so many of us are like, I don't know, I feel off or I'm struggling with fatigue even though I'm doing all the things, or I've changed my supplements. But something. And I'm like, you know what? If this many women are saying something feels off and the system doesn't equip us to actually evaluate what's going on inside of our bodies, then let's invest and let's do that at the organizational level so that we can continue to serve anyway. Here, you know me with human centered policies, I'm like, spend the money on the people. All right. I'd love for us to shift a little bit. Alandra, you've really been focused on coaching clients. You've spoken some to exercises that you might bring forward around the self study, especially when they first wake up and intention set. I'm curious though about calendaring. Like how do you help your clients systematize, plan for, schedule out wellbeing routines to actually rest and restore?

[B]

Yes, love that question. So I'm going to say back what I've said before is center yourself. So I feel like there are a lot of times where there's agency that you have to control how you spend your time that you just give away to others. So I'll just use a personal example. When I was at my last organization, I blocked my calendar from 9 to 11. Oh, you're not going to meet with me before 11am and of course like I was a fundraiser, so there were times where there were exceptions and that was the only time I get it. But as a default, don't try to schedule a 9am 9am meeting with me. That is the way I need to start slow and get into my day so that I can show up fully and powerfully for the rest of the afternoon. So I just think that a lot of times I am being a mirror and I'm reflecting back to the leaders that I work with. It's like, actually this is already yours, you're just not claiming it. And so I think time blocks is something that's hugely important also. And this is like something that the medium, like the way you engage with people, people are all, they're like, it has to be video. Does it. You know what I look like? Like we can, I can walk and talk. I can walk and talk. Right? And so again, it's that agency piece where you actually have choice that you're not making. And so find those little moments. And then the last one I'll say is the breathing room. And I mean that literally and figuratively. In between meetings. Give yourself time to transition. Don't go back to back. There should be at least a 15 minute buffer, if not 30 minutes between every meeting. And use that time to breathe deeply like Lindsay. You grounded us. And a lot of times we're doing this short, shallow breathing throughout the day. Take a deep, long inhale and exhale and imagine how different you can show up to your next responsibility.

[A]

It's that my incredible executive assistant, Emily was like, you know, one of my first noticings is that you've named your lunch breaks Protected Work Time. It literally says Lunch and Protected Work Time. And I was like, ugh, you don't know me. And then she's like, actually, I'm paid to know you. I'm like, no, you're right, you're right. Sorry. No, you're right. And she's. She renamed them all good as lunch and focus time, which and self care is in parentheses. And I'm like, oh, I feel so vulnerable. But she's like, it matters. It matters how you regard it. And that's a really good example of, of course, at the teaching, while we prioritize protected lunch and protected work time, I, and this is the tension we're exploring today, renamed those calendar holds to indicate to my brain, you're still expected to be on. No one told me to do what. No one asked me to do that. That's not normative. I don't want to model it for the team. I didn't even realize I had done it until someone came in and looked at my calendar. So I want to encourage all of you, if you are in a season of chronic fatigue or burnout and you don't have a coach get you a trusted colleague or friend who can look at your printed calendar for a standard week, and you should have them ask you some questions around how you have structured your time and are leveraging or not your agency and wellbeing asterisks. I understand for the teachers and principals in the building, time is not your own during the workday. And yet you deserve protected work time. You deserve to be able to sit down and eat lunch and your after school and before school hours, preps and professional development time should be really well respected. Right? So it looks different depending on the industry, but there are still some themes we can draw across. Naomi, I feel like you have a bar to drop or three, maybe two.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

I think.

[C]

I think that going to what both of you are saying about your calendars, I earlier, and I just shared this with a group that I'm in. I earlier this year, when I was really starting to feel the onslaught of my burnout, I was like, you know what? The Naomi of me in the autumn is going to want some protected space. And while my calendar is clearer, I'm going to block those out. And I blocked a couple of them out and said CEO day so that I could make sure that I gave myself some time to work inside of my business. Some of them I blocked out and said out of office. Oh, oh, oh. Some of them I blocked out and had all these. To your point, Lindsay, like all these labels, really what I needed to just call them is empty days. Like, they're just days. And yesterday was my first one, y', all. And it there it was so Good. Did I do a little work? Yes. Did I answer client emails? Yes. But just the naming of naming it as what it needs to be is so powerful. And I think there is something, and I'm not in the teaching world, so this is, like you said, Lindsay, less available. But even when you're thinking about having the 15 minutes of breathing space, that means sometimes we need to name to the person. I'm going to change this hour to 30 minutes because I myself need some breathing room on the other end of it. And so I trust and believe that we're going to be able to get all the things done in 20 minutes or 30 minutes that we need to. If you're used to an hour and that feels like a really big abruption, change it to 45 minute meetings. And that even just signals to the other person what they may need the permission slip for themselves too. But it also helps for us to name what I realized during my burnout. Like, oh, this feeling in the back of my neck that's also tied to emotions and my blood pressure to name that. Then to my husband or to my kids, helped them also be more aware when they needed to say something to me of like, you're acting like that again. Oh, you know, it's a, it's a noticing. So the theme of noticing and protecting our time is just really so powerful.

[A]

Ooh, I love that this gets me hyped. We've had some powerful reflections around the self study, and in a moment we're going to transition to studying the workplace conditions. But before we do that, I'd like to offer a somatic practice. This practice is called zoom out and there are many ways to do it, but I'm going to first just invite us to get rooted and comfortable in our seat. If you're driving, keep your hands on the wheel and gaze to the horizon. But for those of us that are stationary, I'd love for you to notice if you can release one or two places in your body where you might be tightening. Beginning deep breaths in through the nose and with each other, each out breath, loosening a place of your body. It might be wiggling your legs out, unclenching your fists. Inhale again, exhale. And maybe you're rotating your neck or unhinging your jaw. One more inhale and maybe drop, dropping your shoulders or softening your eyes. And as you resume a regular cadence to your breath. Let's zoom out. For this practice, you're actually going to want to imagine that you are floating just above yourself, observing yourself seated or Standing. Take stock of what you're wearing. Does the desk or chair, table or furniture around you look like Float just a few feet higher and notice three things in the room. A picture frame, a plant, a piece of art. We zoom out for perspective taking.

[C]

Get.

[A]

Curious about your work environment. If you are a nonprofit staffer inside of an office, a consultant in your home, or a teacher in your classroom, notice how you are orienting to the space. Do you look relaxed, at ease? Are you in your gift? Or do you look stressed, constrained? Is your brow furrowed? Are paper scattered everywhere? Take small stock of how you are in this moment, in this role. How are you doing? Are you in the right place? Zooming out can be a perspective taking practice that you do just before coaching meetings, before you talk to your supervisor, and certainly before you make any drastic decisions around your employment. Sometimes it feels urgent, like we want to make a quick decision. But often we need to zoom out. Take two more deep breaths here, in through the nose and out through the mouth. And one more just like that, Gently floating back into your body, into your conscience and into your power. Whenever it feels good, you might flutter your eyes open, stretch, or move in a way that serves you. And from that place, we might get back into it. All right, so we've been talking about the internal work the body signals, the way burnout whispers before it screams. But often it's not just what's happening within us or the ways of being we've patterned into those are important to recognize, sometimes intervene on. But it could also be the ecosystem around us, the culture, the expectations, the supervisor Lord, and the quiet harm baked into how we work. So as we move into the next part of the conversation, I want to invite us to both hold duality, right? Two things can be true. It might be the system. It could also be the self, practices, beliefs, habits that are driving us into the ground. It's probably a bit of both. Naomi, you've seen communities and orgs up close, also leaders as they get ready to transition. How do you differentiate misalignment, dysfunction, and toxicity without diluting real harm?

[C]

I mean, how much time do we have left? This is powerful. And I actually have some notes because I wanted to make sure to be able to name these as different, because they really are. And I hadn't really thought about that until I saw this as a question. So to me there's some difference. And so one of the ways to name that is I think that misalignment feels like confusion. So that's different than dysfunction, which really is like Trying to swim against the current or swimming through sludge. Toxicity is dangerous. And I think if I can just break those up a little bit, I'm going to share in each of those three, what it might present like how it shows up and how it might be fixable. So misalignment. Misalignment might present like normal friction. So that looks like competing priorities or unclear communication. But the key here is that folks on the team still for the most part share core values. It also could show up as confusion about who's supposed to do what or conflicting timelines or just general lack of clarity around like what are we doing this? I think misalignment is fixable and I think that orgs still function. I also think that in misalignment people necessarily aren't being harmed, they're just not moving in sync. Dysfunction starts to slide a little bit farther to the right though. If we're looking at the right being the harm, that looks like broken systems and lack of patterns that or that you're seeing patterns that prevent good work. So structure might be more of the problem here, but the good intent is still present. This shows up in really terrible and chronic communication patterns, decision bottlenecks, power structures that haven't been addressed and lack of accountability. This feels maybe like frustration, burnout. But the culture isn't actually harmful, it's just being neglected. Then we go into toxicity, which is active harm and that is power abuse. That is manipulation. It's systemic devaluation of people and that's going to human centered policies. Those aren't going to be present in a toxic work environment. This will feel like retaliation, gaslighting, silencing of dissent. That's a huge one to be aware of is like if you're bringing up something that you don't agree with or that you want to have someone think about a different perspective and you're constantly silenced. In my book, that is, that's toxicity. This then creates trauma responses, hypervigilance, fear based decision making, people leaving in crisis. The other thing I think that's important here is that a lot of this is pulling up unresolved shit from our own past. So the thing I always talk about when people are leaving is the reason it feels so terrible is because we've been left before. We've either done the leaving or we've been left. And that abandonment cycle can often then breed the toxicity and we can be a part of that too. It's not just organizationally. I don't believe that toxicity in a workplace is fixable without removing the source, which is oftentimes problematic leadership personnel. So that would be my. I could talk for another two hours on this topic. I'm so glad.

[A]

And we will listen. I'm gonna bring you back because I now wanna do an entire episode just on the. The spectrum that you just illustrated. And I need to be rocked and coddled because it was so accurate and incredible. Landry, I saw you. I'm like, what are your. What are you thinking here? How would you layer on, like, what are the patterns you see that tell you it's systemic, like culture or power or it's personal, like role fit or season for someone?

[B]

Yes. I'm gonna be honest with you. I think it's really hard to tease apart sometimes. Right. Because we are a byproduct of a system that is not set up to protect us and in some cases meant to harm us. And so I did my best to try to tease apart, like, what I think is systemic versus what is the self. And so on the systemic side for me is you feel like you will experience harm if you bring your full, authentic self. So there's something about you showing up fully that makes you feel unsafe. On the value side, it's systemic if the values are not aligned with yours. But the little asterisk is. Oh, by the way, people will tout some values. Are y' all practicing them?

[A]

Hello.

[B]

So when. When there's that disconnect between what's on the website and like, what you're seeing.

[A]

Day to day, Landria, it's the equity statement for me.

[B]

Point blank period. Um, and then Naomi talked about the toxicity. Right. So is the behavior permitted? And lo and behold, if it is rewarded, being toxic is seen as right. Like you doing the thing. And then like, I started, I couldn't tell where this one fit. But like, your best is never enough. And so that is a systemic thing. But I also think that's where we started to get to self and the narrative and like the story you're telling yourself. So on the self side, I think is your energy is constantly depleted. Like, you literally can't find a way to feel energized or excited. You can't dream, you can't imagine beyond your, like, current present day to day. And this one is one I experienced myself. You're sacrificing in all the other areas of your life in order to show up in this space. Everybody else is suffering, Relationships are torn, tension. Because you've chosen that this work role is it. And where you're going to give it all. And then this one, I think the sleep, restful sleep, you're not sleeping. And so that was something, honestly, when we were talking about self study that I thought about is like, that's one of the early signs that something's not. Something's not right. You're off, you can't sleep restfully. You're waking up in the middle of the night feeling anxious, worried. So that's my list.

[A]

This is really rich. So I'm going to layer on a piece here before we begin our downward descent. So if you go into these LinkedIn streets, y' all. The thread I see for many consultants. Okay, first of all, the billboard, the headline in LinkedIn is Become a consultant. That's one of the first things I noticed as I came in. But when I started to really listen to what are these consultants saying? And many were like, I'm seeking autonomy. And another thread I heard was I'm escaping toxicity. So I'm curious if both of y' all think is becoming a consultant, a freelancer, working for yourself, is that the answer in this phase of being.

[C]

Well, I'll raise my hand as a current burnt out consultant that I don't know that it fixes anything. I think that there is. We've talked about this a little bit, all three of us, about the power dynamic. And I think that we so often attribute power to someone who has it by role or by their decision making. But we have some autonomy and we have some power. And so sometimes that is the choice and the decision to leave. But I don't know that I would just blanketly say to leave, to go, then do your own thing, because that brings in a whole new host of things. And also, if you're not willing to address your internal challenges around toxicity and boundaries, all you're going to do is set that same stuff up in your own business and then where are you? Not to mention you have to find your own clients. You have to like, there's a lot.

[A]

More operations for me.

[C]

Oh my gosh. Like, it's so much. I think that what I would encourage folks to do before you take the plunge. Although there are some situations where leaving is the best thing to do and you need to do it stat and you need to do it yesterday. So I don't want to gloss over that or bypass that. But if you're like sitting there and thinking there's gotta be a better way than this, I would recommend a coach or a therapist or your good old journal first and really go through maybe re. Listen to this episode and go through like, what is my body telling me? What am I able to notice? And is this something that by leaving this place that I will have more of the thing that I seek? Or going back to Alandria's recommendations at the beginning of the episode, are there places that I can prioritize myself that would help to balance some of this? Now, there are really hellaciously toxic work environments. The other thing that I would recommend people do is consider. And this won't always be safe for you to do, but consider if you also have an obligation to tell someone about the thing that you're experiencing. A lot of times when organizations have people simply leave and they don't do any telling, and so then it just perpetuates. Now there's also punishment and all sorts of things that happen when you tell. And so, you know, that comes with a grace note and some salt that you need to, you know, pull into your own exact situation. But sometimes you can exercise your power by speaking up about the thing that you're experiencing. And sometimes it is a leaving.

[A]

Yeah, my book's going to be outlining the exact survival guide. So I hear you. It's. It's nuanced and it's case by case. First of all, teachers are the most incredible employees in the world because they are accustomed to multitasking. They listen, they could tie a shoe, catch some vomit, teach with rigor, and build belonging like they are unmatched. Educators are incredible. But I'm also watching as all of these like boot camp programs are popping up that's like, just leave the school. And I'm like, wait, let's fix the system. And it's gonna take a while for sure, right? And I'm like, wow, how have we gotten to this place where we are telling folks that the easiest route is to leave and become self employed? When I know, I mean, I have a private practice. Many teaching while teammates do it is not all roses and skipping through meadows when you are self employed, it's really challenging and takes a tremendous amount of consistency. Discipline, organization and follow through. The initiative that you have to take constantly to seek out your own opportunities can land you in a special type of burnout of its own. Right. Alandria, I'm curious if you'd like to layer on.

[B]

I think the one thing I'll just say double stamp is being out on your own exacerbates some of the things like you can literally end up replicating and making worse the toxicity that you experience in a workplace. I spent close to My first full year in business, figuring out ways to swim against the tide because my brain was so wired. Like, you must get up, you must get to the computer. You must work all day.

[C]

No, you don't.

[B]

This is my business. I get to decide how I spend my time. And so I think, yeah, you just. You gotta be so super uber conscious of what you're bringing into the new thing that will actually muck it up if you don't take the time to process and heal from previous experiences.

[A]

All right, well, look, let's give the people what they want. I'd love for us to just brainstorm a little bit on a couple of elements we would add to a discernment checklist. Right. So what feels paramount when cultivating discernment around if we should stay or go from our current role? Naomi, I'm going to start with you. What are a couple of things you would put forward?

[C]

So some of these things have already been talked about. So it's. It's really putting them into a list and finding the things that speak to you as you hear this. So one of the things that I always ask is, what is it costing me to stay? So Alandria pointed this out. Like, how is this impacting your relationships? The fact that work sometimes and oftentimes comes first? Is this compromising your values and your integrity, your own professional growth? So that's the first question on the checklist. Is like, what is it costing you to stay? Why are you staying versus leaving? This is a big, like, gut check around. Is it commitment that makes you either want to stay or go? Is it conflict avoidance, which is sometimes what we are dealing with? Is it guilt? Is it exhaustion? Is it health? Are you so obsessed with the mission that if you leave, you think no one else can take your place? Those are some questions to ask. Then. This is to your point, Lindsay, about, like, can the situation truly change and do you have the power by staying to see that change begin? And then this is often for the person in decision making roles who benefits from you staying and is it really time for you to leave? And could someone benefit from you leaving? So those are. That would be what I'd add to the checklist.

[A]

I'm big. I emoji ing Landria. What you got?

[B]

All right. On my checklist. So what is your gut telling you? No, really telling you. Take the time to slow down, be still, sit in the silence and hear. What is your fear telling you? How can you check it? Can this space hold the full scope of your brilliance? And then which version of you would be most proud. The one who stays or the one who leaves.

[A]

These are really, really rich questions and I want to double click on the Everyone needs therapy. I'm the Oprah of therapy. Everybody needs therapy. Everyone should have a coach. Coaching and supervision are not the same thing. Check out previous episodes from the Teaching Wells perspective. Everybody deserves a coach and a supervisor. They have different functions. And then therapy, we need it. All right, well, this is beautiful, beautiful work. I want to offer just a little bit of homework. This is a practice that I've been doing with some of my leaders that I coach, so superintendents, nonprofit, CEOs, principals. This is called what I call a visual confirmation practice. So when you are feeling unsure, unsteady, if you can trust your own inner wisdom. I often love again, when I think about stress management, notice externalize mindfully act. This is an externalize practice. It's asking what's pulling me outward to leave, what's pushing me inward to stay. You would journal this into a T chart. I taught first grade. That's my business. So draw you a little T chart. You know what it is? Google it. Okay, on one side it's leaving, on the other it's staying. And I want you to pause at the and really start to journal out what are concrete things. My team, I want to stay. Or I have clients that super motivate me. I love my students and my reading data has improved so much. I know I am moving kids towards or beyond grade level. Right. Whatever it might be for you, journal them out. And then I want you to pause at the end and consider what the visual tells you as a reflection of your own inner knowing. In one side, it might be significantly longer. There could be a case where you're actually split three bullet points and three bullet points walk away from the task. And then later what you might notice is you feel compelled to return to the list and add more on one side. That is information that's useful in your somatic clarity seeking. Because often when you run back and you're like, yeah, but actually I should leave because. And you add eight more. Your body may have made a decision that your mind is still grappling with. And so we wanna try and attune somatically to find that greater alignment. Hope this practice is helpful. I also love to do this with things like job descriptions. Green, yellow, red, color, code it and look. Oh, I am qualified to go for my promotion because I've got so much green here. You might need that external visual confirmation. I'd love to Invite each of us to share an affirmation with the audience, a phrase or reminder that's anchoring you in this season. For me, it's I trust my body to tell the truth before my burnout does. Naomi, passing it to you so good.

[C]

Mine would be that leaving can be my best leadership. I can honor what is and still choose what's next.

[B]

Mine is I was made to walk in peace and clarity. Stepping away makes room for my brilliance.

[A]

Oh, so good. All right, y', all, before we close today, I want to bring us back to a ritual that's become a part of gather at the well. We always end with critical hope because hope isn't naive. It's not pretending things aren't hard, not toxic positivity. It is choosing to believe that repair and rest are still possible, even in the mess. So I'd love to hear from each of you. Where are you finding your critical hope right now? Alandria, I'm pass it to you first.

[B]

So my critical hope is anchored in the goodness of God. So I'm a woman of faith, and I deeply believe that if it's not good, then God's not done yet, Period.

[A]

Tambourine. I love that. Naomi, what you got in terms of a critical hope?

[C]

Mine is really reflective of this time. So as we're recording this, it is two days after election. Elections. And it's my critical hope is really just reminding myself that I don't have to do it all, that someone else has done some of the parts already or is already planning to do those things, and I don't have to do it. And so the election cycle really reminded me of that. Like, I don't have to do it all. I can go vote. I can show up for that, and someone else has the other pieces. That does mean, you know, the cycle has to on some. Some of the times I have to do more. But the Deepa Iyer social impact ecosystem is such a good reminder that we all have roles to play and we don't have to play all of them at the same time.

[A]

Come on. Yeah, more of this. I think my critical hope in this moment, if I were to fuse both of yours, is that we have self determination and our spirits are such powerful compasses inside of us that when we grow our capacity to tune in and listen, often what we're grappling with, the turmoil, what we're stressing with, what we're ruminating about all night long, a path emerges. And I think, Naomi, when I see the voting results, young people came out in force. They're complete and all of the studies are showing they're not consenting to workplace abusers. So I have hope that the next generation will transform the way that we see, situate and liberate within our greatest contributions, career wise. That's my. That's my hope. Well, we're so grateful for all of you tuning in. Follow up with Naomi and with Alandria, connect with them on LinkedIn, go to their websites, support their work. They are brilliant and they're also available to support folks all of us are with Tuning into your own wisdom, figuring out if staying or going is best for you in this season, and ultimately consenting to a work environment that doesn't harm you. Wishing you all the best. Get some good rest and go be hydrated. All right, y'. All. Thanks for coming to play at Gather at the well, the podcast that teaches. If you like this conversation, come visit us [e-mail] and hit us up on our socials. We're always looking for supporters to replenish the well. If you want this podcast to stay in the game, you or your company can donate on our website. Remember to visit the podcast page to download a copy. Couple of useful tools to get your life and heal up your org.