Yada Pang (3:05)

Oh, so good to see you always. Love, love, love to be in conversation with you too.

John (3:10)

It is a freaking gift. And I just got to say, the panel that Becky was talking about, I mean, there was truly, like such a beautiful energy in the room of just people sharing what they're struggling with. But you as panelists, really working together to solve for the room and to speak a lot of truths. And there is a moment, there's a powerful concept that you shared about really allowing air to come in between the logs when you're building that need for space and to keep the fire burning. So will you share a little bit about that analogy? I feel like we all kind of gasped and we're all, like, scratching this down because it was so powerful. How does that concept apply to nonprofit leaders facing this urgency of funding right in this moment?

Yada Pang (3:50)

Oh, my gosh. I love that y'all created the space for this. And I have to give a huge shout out to my own coach. I hope a lot of us have coaches out there. But Nita Karaj, I was struggling, you know, as someone who's a consummate builder who's built, you know, over almost a dozen, you know, nonprofits in this space. Like, I was really struggling because of this urge that we all have to do more in this moment. And I think this concept that we talked about of air between the logs comes from this really beautiful poem by that's called Fire by Judy Brown. And it uses this image of a fire to show how space is just as essential as the logs or the fuel. Right? And so the line that really sticks out for me that we talked about is the space between the logs is what makes the fire possible. And in other words, like, to me, like, if we pile, if we pile too much wood on so much work, all these ideas, too fast, too much wood too fast, the fire suffocates, right? So when there's the right amount of space between the logs and you can see it. We all know it because we draw it as kids. You can draw. That's when the fire can really breathe and can grow. And so I share that because it is, I think, a powerful metaphor for this moment, for leadership, for funding, where urgency, especially right now, is our constant companion. You know, this need for urgency, and there's another grant deadline, there's another program we have to run, there's a crisis to address. It's every day. It just keeps coming. And so this instinct that we have for survival is sticking more logs, more hours, more hustle, more doing, but without the space. And by. I interpret space in this poem. The air between the logs to be space to reflect, space to strategize, space to breathe. If we're not doing that, we're burning out. If we're not doing that, our teams are burning out. If we're not doing that, creating space, air, then the mission that we're trying to advance is at risk. So I think for our nonprofit leaders who are facing this funding crunch right now, it's real, it's serious, it's scary. The analogy is a reminder that to rest is. Isn't a luxury. It's part of what keeps the fire going.

Becky (6:00)

So if you came here wondering if Yatta was going to point you to 42 different ways to go raise a bunch of money, she's saying, breathe, rest. And I think, just as someone who is Type A, I have a lot of problems with trying to put too much into a small space. And I think our just immediate gu reaction when we're feeling stressed or when we're seeing that, oh, we're going to be short on our KPIs or whatever it is, is, I need to do more. But, John, have you noticed that almost every expert who's come in to talk about Hold Fast has said, you need space. Like, we talk a lot about the white space. You need to pause, you need to look around and reevaluate. You need to start thinking about bigger questions. And so I really like that we're level setting with the fire analogy right now, because I hope it is giving friends some room to breathe and to feel like you should be breathing. And there is this sense right now, Y. I'm sure you're hearing it in your work. We are hearing it on the daily over here of organizations just scrambling, trying to find whether it's diversified funding or new funding or unearthing, you know, funding that was supposed to use in one way for a different way. And I wonder if you can kind of speak to that pressure that orgs are feeling to add more logs to their funding strategy. Do you think that instinct think might actually be working against people? What are your, what are your feelings about that?

Yada Pang (7:31)

I think it's really important to give leaders some real clear hope right now and strategy because I mean, this is about like people's lives, right? I mean a lot of the non profits, I mean, as leaders, you know, I think about, I know you all think about too, like people have jobs, people are taking care of multiple family members, you know, multiple generations. You're serving communities that are relying on you. And so we need to, to be there for them. So I just, you know, I think the rest metaphor is really important. Not just as like, hey, every quarter, let's take a couple days off kind of a rest, but let's rethink how we engage in relationship with funders because I think the urgency in the crisis can actually diminish trust. Trust as opposed to building the trust. And so I just wanted to get like really practical about what I mean or what it means to me when I think about rest and the air between the logs. I think about like really tangible practices like pausing the hustle, you know, creating strategic breathing room. What does that mean? Maybe that means for a non profit leader, prioritizing fewer, better aligned funders instead of chasing every opportunity locks, right, Chasing every opportunity space between the logs, doing, you know, prioritizing fewer, better aligned funders. What does that do? It's going to create the space to be in deeper relationship with your funders who really understand you and who understand your mission. It's going to give you a chance to reclaim some time for strategic thinking rather than scrambling in that frenetic energy. We talked last time about Covey and the spending time in the important, not urgent. How do we create space for that? We need to make some choices as funders. So I think, you know, we really want to think about what's adding fire, you know, versus smothering the fire. And so I think that's a real practical invitation I would offer to leaders, you know, right now. And I think, you know, another piece that I would offer is, is really leaning into the storytelling, you know, as space that a lot of folks right now, they want the data, the analytics, the metrics. And I think even more important is the storytelling because it brings in and centers our humanity, right? It creates more spaciousness, more spaciousness, more opportunity for that connection. And so I think sharing these stories can really slow down the frenetic energy that some funders may have or that certainly the groups have and build this relationship that's not just rooted in crisis after crisis, but really inviting funders to be a part of this story that we as nonprofit leaders are building in our communities, not making it a transaction. So I think I want to make sure folks know that for me, air isn't about not doing anything. It's really about recentering, intentionality, relationship, even your breath versus that frenetic kind of pace that we're allowing to guide us right now. Or again, stacking more logs even, I think in times of scarcity, for me anyway, at just fund, we rely on grants too to operate. And it's a practice that I am and being disciplined to cultivate where I'm choosing to create this space, choosing to prioritize fewer relationships with funders who really understand what we're doing to create that opportunity for me to have more time for the strategic thinking, the deeper relationships, the kind of the pause instead of the like, frenetic or yeah, we'll build that. Sure, we can do that. You know, yeah, I can. I'll take that money and we can do that. Sure. You know, really just thinking about where is the alignment and where, you know, how can I connect with people who really are working towards the same vision, the same North Star?

John (11:17)

It's so good. I mean, these conversations just keep striking me because they've got the organizational application. But every time we talk like we are humans that are experiencing this, like this applies for how we show up and move through this world as people, you know, too. And I think these principles of alignment and moving slow and creating space for reflection are so important in our own lives. So I love that you're just pointing to that. And when I talk to you, I always think about trust. I feel like you're the keeper of trust because Yalls tagline has always struck me that I think it's money at the speed of trust. It's like, I think it's a powerful saying, but it's also true, has the benefit of being right. And I'm curious, like in times of urgency, you painted a picture of how it's easier to go. We can do that thing. Yeah, we can scope creep a little bit over here. How does somebody pour into not losing, holding fast and building trust? What are some of those hallmarks of trust building activities that people could really lean into and not forsake Whenever you feel overwhelmed in the moment, how do you still build trust with funders and relationships?

Becky (12:25)

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John (12:34)

Yeah, you're right. Our partners make it possible for us to keep showing up with free education tools series, summits and resources because they believe like we do, that investing in people and community creates real, lasting change.

Becky (12:46)

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John (13:03)

Yeah. Big gratitude to our ecosystem partners at Donordoch, Feather, RKD Group and Whiteboard. They're not just partners, they're walking alongside us to build something better and more inclusive.

Becky (13:14)

Head to we are for good.com Rex to explore our go to tools and humans doing this great work. Lock arms for impact and put more fuel back into this community. That's weareforgood.com RECS now back to the show.

Yada Pang (13:38)

Yeah, I think it's such a good question and I think, you know, one without trust, everything is like an emergency or a crisis, you know, and I think I had a donor that I worked with a long time ago in building Solidaire Network, which is this amazing network of individuals and institutions moving money in solidarity with social movements. And she said, you know, I don't want to feel like an ATM for movements, you know, I don't want it to feel transactional. And I think that's the real cost of frenetic energy and living in this time, this space of urgency and rapid response orientation is that it can be really transactional, which is going to lead to a short term relationship, which means you get to work even harder to build more relationships with more, more funders versus taking the time to get out of the reflex. Because when you, when you're in an urgent situation, your back's against the wall. I mean, you know, you're desperate for funding, your reflexes to perform, to prove, to please and, and it really undermines the conditions for trust. It, you know, from funders. So I think in that hustle, sometimes trust can get edged out and you gotta really think about trust as the space between just leaning back into that metaphor. It's not often just the ask, right? It's the, it's the air between the ask, if you will. It's like that conversation that's not just about money, right? It's the honesty about what's not working. It's the courage to say, we're going to need more time or we need more flexibility or this isn't aligned, you know, or it's the. It's the. It's the space to say, this is actually what we need to make this work. You know, X isn't going to really get us to where your goal is and to what we really need to. To work towards that common goal. We're going to need. Why there's, There's. When you create that trust, you can have those kinds of conversations, so you really have that space for honesty. It's not just the transactional, here's what we need or here's what we can give, and you say, okay, but it's really around. Here's what we're seeing. Here's what we're learning. What are you seeing? What are you learning? I love the funders that we have at Just Fund because they're sitting at an intersection where they're either funding intermediaries, they're funding infrastructure, they're funding the spaces where I want to break through. Right. So. And they're seeing a lot of different entities like mine. Right? Like just one. So it's like, what are you seeing?

Becky (16:04)

What are you learning? What are the big.

Yada Pang (16:05)

You know, they can kind of point the way for me where maybe I don't have to spend so much time trying to crack the nut. They're already seeing opportunities that I can kind of follow, so.

John (16:15)

Good.

Becky (16:16)

Okay, that is so good. And we're talking about permission and agency and these things that I think historically we didn't feel like we could bring to the table. And, and I hope your friends, you're listening and hearing a funder say, no, no, the partnership is stronger when we're both radically candid with each other. And I actually would even push further and say it feels safer when we can say this. I'm nervous to say this to you because I know that we had talked about this, but the reality is this is our, you know, this is our vision now. This is where we've understood our focus needs. And so I think just that funder power dynamic can be very stunted, and you've positioned it in such an abundant way. And I. I want to take this a little bit further for people, because I think when a. When a funder asks you maybe to shift your work a little bit, maybe in exchange for support or, you know, shifting that focus, it can feel a little squishy. But I think when you have such trust built between you about what's possible. It creates, again, a different dynamic. So talk a little bit about how people can hold fast to those values that they believe in that lead their organizations while still feeling like they have power within a dynamic with a funder.

Yada Pang (17:42)

Yeah, I mean, that's such a great. Such a great question. I mean, I think that the number one thing for me is to be prepared before that question comes up. And one of the practices that we have and that I've had for the many nonprofits that I've launched into the world is like naming your non negotiables, you know, knowing what your team will budge on or not, you know, what won't you do for resources, you know, are you. Where. Where can you be flexible? So I think, you know, we all know values are strongest when you know, you've named them before they're actually tested.

Becky (18:17)

There you go.

Yada Pang (18:18)

So I think that's really important. The other thing I would say is like one metaphor that's been coming alive for me this year is making sure that I'm not an island as a leader, which is why I love being in community with you and so many other folks, of being in a connected space. Right. And in this case, like with funders, that means being connected with your board and your team and making sure that you can role play. You can really talk about these real scenarios and you can know that people have your back if you walk away from a particular grant. You know, you can't hold a boundary by yourself. I mean, it's hard. You can. It's really tough. So it's much easier if you've got people kind of behind you and you're in conversation with your board. Hey, I just want to let you know this is what the funder is asking us to do. I'm not feeling comfortable. I'd love to get your thoughts. What do you think? Right. And really kind of being in community and so you're not kind of standing out there on. All alone on an island. The number one thing I love to do when a funder comes to us is to, you know, and asks us to kind of shift purpose is to respond with curiosity. You know, that's the first thing. Get curious. Can you tell me why this is important to you? You know, well, here's what our community is saying they need and how we've learned to show up for them. And, you know, we'd love to explore how our priorities could align in this moment. But really getting curious, like, tell me more, because, you know, that program officer has also Got a ton of pressure from their institution. Right. And having to fit their new KPIs, their new key performance indicators, their new organizational key results, their new strategic plan. Right. So if we can understand and get curious, that's where trust building like really lives, you know, in this kind of like honest dialogue. Not, you know, instant. Sure, we, yeah, we can do that. Just like getting curious, really learning. What are you, what, why are you asking me to do this? I'd love to hear why you think this is a good idea.

John (20:13)

Yeah. And you think about just like conversations that are one sided when no one's asking you a reciprocal question, like it's not building a relationship you and I think getting curious is such a great door opener. Obviously it's taught us a lot in podcasting of just hearing people's stories, not trying to go in without a bias to just listen. And so this is bringing up this idea of mutuality and really centering dignity in funding conversations. Where do you go in terms of what are some practices that organizations can really lean into to find mutuality? It's not just one sided. We're partners in this. We're on the same side of the table here, trying to create whatever impact.

Yada Pang (20:53)

Love it. As usual. I mean, I think, you know, we often we're approaching funders because we need something from them, but what we sometimes forget is they need something from us. Right. So it's not just, hey, funder, we need the money to do this thing. That funder is also trying to accomplish a goal. And, and if we can reorient around that, that we are together working towards a common goal. You've got a North Star. What is it? What are some of the other strategies that you're experimenting with to get to your North Star? How do we fit into that strategy? Here's where I think we could really help you as you're trying to learn more. Right. Because they're trying, they've got to report back on impact. But what are you trying to learn? I think those kinds of, again, that curiosity really helps recenter that conversation on a shared purpose, on mutual respect, on what you're, you know, that human connection that you talked about, John, earlier. And I, I think it's really important for us as nonprofit leaders to lead with relationship, you know, and like you said, John, you start treating funders like people because that's who they are. You know, they're not just prospects and same thing for them as they do with us. Right. We're not just a grantee, we're people trying to solve a common problem. So I think prioritizing that relationship over transaction can be incredibly powerful. And y'all said this at the beginning. Ask funders, you know, why do they care about this work? What's their why? Right. We need to hold fast to our why so we stay rooted in our values. But getting curious about their why is really important. You know, so you're, you're inviting folks into a partnership, two people who are bringing different resources to a partnership to accomplish a common goal. And the other thing I think is important, and it's hard in this moment, but we gotta slow the tempo down. You know, it doesn't help to say we need this money and we need it now. I know you do. We, we do. But I think, you know, and that urgency to even respond if a funder is like you asked Becky, asking to shift the strateg strategy. Right. Well, can we just pause on that for a moment? Can we talk a little bit about why that. That shift is really important. Let's reflect on that together a little bit. So you give you, you slow down the tempo to create some opportunity to co create right together what we're trying to do versus, like instant compliance, you know, maybe that's interesting. Can we talk a little bit more about that? So I think, you know, mutuality needs that breathing room too. And that and, and, and speed, I think, can sometimes be our enemy around that.

Becky (23:22)

I just think this whole notion of slowing down and not feeling like you have to pile in, pile on. I just think there is something to this. And, and I think about the energy that that's going to bring if you just really are trying to run to that conversation. We want to be steady partners, want to be steady with you. They want to be there in the right moment with the right gift to the right project. And I think it's really natural for us to get into those scarce sort of thinking. And I, and rejection is going to be a part of this, and we know it is. And I'd say yada. There are people out there saying, oh my gosh, if I don't land this right now, I'm so worried my organization is X and we are letting those narratives take over. What is one thing you would encourage our listeners to hold fast to right now, even in the face of rejection or red tape or having something that maybe white want to shift in our support or maybe it's just that scarcity. How do you tell someone to hold fast?

Yada Pang (24:27)

I mean, it's kind of, it's, it's to me the most important thing, and we've touched on this already, is to really hold on to your why, you know, because it's really easy to lose sight of what we're doing. I've done it. We've all done it, Right? Like, yeah, that could work. Yeah, I could see how that could work. And we rush into a partnership when we've lost tethering to our why. You know, I think about, like, when we're deeply rooted in our why and a big gust of wind comes, we're not gonna get unrooted and flow with the wind, right? We're rooted, so the wind can move us back and forth, but we're still rooted. And our why. And I think if we're. I would say, look, if you're listening to this right now and you're feeling the pressure of scarcity, of rejection and this other layer of red tape that Becky talked about, I would just say pause for a moment, you know, and take a breath and remember your why. Why did you step into this work in the first pill in the first place? You know, who are you showing up for? You know, what change is going to keep you going even when things get really tough? That's our purpose, and in that purpose, our power, right? It's our clarity, it's our compass. So I think that's what we need right now, is to make sure that urgency doesn't push our why into the background that we protect, that we speak it, that we share it. You know, we. We don't hide it. We share with our team, share with our board, share it here, right? Who are we showing up for? Why do we step into this work? What's the change that keep us. That keeps us going? Because, listen, that. That why is what's going to keep. Keep us going. There's a lot coming at us, even not in this moment of where people are feeling a lot of fear and a lot of stress and more strain. It's just the nature of our. Of our work. So if we can. If we can just know that rejection is going to happen, you know, scarcity is going to be there. But if we stay close to our why, we can move not only with urgency, but with integrity.

John (26:35)

I mean, y'all download this episode so you can go back to it. Can we just, like, put this on repeat? I feel like the wisdom you're sharing walking through is so. Meets this moment so beautifully. Um, okay. We've kind of carved out space in this series, yada, that we want to give homework to our listeners. And spoiler we always write this stuff for us too. So let's, let's be honest about this. What are some questions, maybe an exercise or reflection questions that you could leave us with today that we can kind of like process, take a hot second, create space to think through. Where would you guide us in that after this episode?

Yada Pang (27:10)

So I wrote down some reflection questions for all of us and I actually did them this morning. Oh great. It took me about 20 minutes of quiet time where I didn't even sit at my desk because I knew that the ding, ding, ding of the email and the slack. I just went to my coffee table and sat on the floor with my coffee table and I have these reflection questions for us, which is my invitation to you right before your week fills up again. Just 20 minutes. What originally called me to this work? You know, what was it? Was it a moment in time? Was it a person? Was it some kind of a feeling? Was it a need that you saw? What originally called me in to this work? And the other question that I would invite you to think about, which I love so much because it gets us into our bodies and that somatics of the all knowing, our body knows. Where do I feel most alive and aligned in my work right now? Right. What is happening in those moments where I feel aligned and alive? Who am I with? What am I doing? Right? Where in my work am I feeling most alive and aligned? So those are the two reflection questions. And if you want a bonus, I would say at your next team meeting or your next board meeting, bring one of those questions and invite five minutes of quiet reflection with people that are on that island with you or that you've connected with. Right. Who really love you and care about you and want to see you successful, who share your, your mission and your vision. Because that's going to be again, what we keep on coming back to is this. Why?

Becky (28:50)

Okay, John and Julie, get ready. We're doing this in team meeting on Monday. So it's coming towards you. I think they're so simple. But I actually think if you get back to what you were saying before, these are rooted questions. These are rooted in our spirit and our essence of being. This has been driving us the answer to these two questions for decades. I think it's time to go back to it. In the chaos, while the wind is like churning us every which way. Time to get regrounded. Thank you. Yach.

Yada Pang (29:22)

You know what? I just. You made me think of a third one that I actually did on my own. I did that. That I think in this moment. What does it, what does it look like for me this week to lead out of trust and not fear? Just this week, you know, because there's so much fear right now. I'm feeling it. You're feeling it. But what, what would my leadership look like this week if I'm leading out of trust and not fear? So if, if you get through those first two ones in 20, you know, in less than 20 minutes, you might slap on that third to really think for a minute around how my leadership looks different if I'm trusting versus reacting.

Becky (30:00)

Okay, that was worth the bonus for all of this. Please do that. And I would also say community, like, come ping us on social or send us a DM or something and let us know how these this went with your team, with yourself, what the response was. I actually think that this could be a really cool, activating exercise for all of us. So, Yara, you've been on the podcast long enough to know how we wrap up these conversations. Can you put a bow on this topic today and drop a one good thing as it relates to this conversation? We'd love to hear what you have.

Yada Pang (30:35)

One good thing is you are already enough. There is nothing you have to do right now to earn your place in the work that you're doing. Not to a funder, not to your board, not to anybody. If you're feeling that pressure right now to contort, to Chase, to prove, I just want you to breathe and to remember your why. And you're enough.

Becky (31:00)

My gosh, is the freaking founder of my dreams like the funder, like, who gets it? Thank you for putting humanity at the center of everything.

John (31:10)

Yeah. What a grounding conversation on so many levels, my friend. And I want to connect everyone listening to your work and to you. And I went into JustFun US, which I'm going to spoil is yalls website and realized that I undershot what y'all funded by like $60 million. So can we give you some credit? The just fund is funded over 375 million. So updating my intro to just be like the work that y'all are doing is incredible. Could you connect our listeners to Just Fund and to how to find you online too?

Yada Pang (31:40)

Yeah, I mean come like you said, John, come to justfund us. I mean we are the nation's first and only common grant application platform. That is the cornerstone of everything that we've built for you. We are building a technology here that's by us for us, that is rooted in what we need in this moment, which is for more money to move and how do we get more money to move? We have to change the way we get. So we have been building and will continue to build a platform with equitable technologies that make it easy for funders to just know that they're adopting best practices. Right. And aligning their grant making practice with their core values through a technology that's for them, for you. And what I love about our funders who come in here, 212 of them who are using the Common app and other technologies that are really beautiful and powerful, is that they're doing this because they want, they want to make funding easy. They want to make distributing funds and seeking funds easier. And they understand that our communities will win when we do that.

Becky (32:45)

Please go check it out. And P.S. the reason you were $60 million off, John is probably because we had that bio the first time we met Yara. So she's raised that much money since she's last been on the podcast.

Yada Pang (32:57)

It's moving. Money moves. Like you said, John, at the speed of trust, we, we all, I think, have come to understand that, know that, feel it, it, live it. And as trust builds, so money can move faster. And it's happening.

Becky (33:10)

I'm so proud of you. Keep going. My heartwired friend, thank you for coming in to teach yet again and giving us the exhale that we need to rest in the right ways as we find that space between the logs.

John (33:23)

So much gratitude. Thank you, my friend.

Becky (33:24)

My friend, thank you.