← We Can Do Hard Things
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- [00:00]
Glennon Doyle
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- [00:53]
Abby Wambach
We Can Do Hard Things for a While. You know how important acceptance is when it comes to personal growth. And you know who else is big on acceptance? Discover. You see, Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. That's a whole lot of places and a whole lot of acceptance, which is great for Discover, but even better for you. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. Learn more at discover.com credit card.
- [01:34]
Amanda Doyle
Welcome to we can do hard things. I am telling you right now, Pod Squad, you are not going to want to miss this conversation in the next hour. You're going to learn what we learned. Which is the only way to have a good relationship with others in the world is to start by building a good relationship with yourself. A million people have told us this. No one has ever told us what the hell it means to have a good relationship with yourself. And today I freaking learned it. Okay, you will learn it too. It's absolutely revolutionary. The person who we're speaking to today is absolutely revolutionary in this hour. She teaches us about self sovereignty. She teaches us how to come home to ourselves, how to analyze whether or not we have a solid relationship with ourselves. And she teaches us how to go out into this wild world and maintain our gentleness while being powerful in a way we couldn't without gentleness. Dr. Tama Bryant is a psychologist, professor, sacred artist, minister, and author of the new book Matters of the Heart teaches how to create healthy relationships, heal trauma, and overcome stress and oppression. She is a professor of psychology at Pepperdine University, where she directs the Culture and trauma research laboratory. Dr. Bryant is an ordained elder in the African Methodist Episcopal Church and leads the mental health ministry at First AME Church in Los Angeles. She was the 2023 president of the American Psychological association, the APA, and she is the host of the Homecoming podcast. Dr. Tama Bryant, welcome.
- [03:20]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Oh, my goodness.
- [03:23]
Glennon Doyle
Dr. Bryant. Oh, this is so exciting for us.
- [03:29]
Dr. Tama Bryant
I'm so excited. So thank you all for your. Yes, I have been really looking forward to today.
- [03:36]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah, us as well.
- [03:37]
Abby Wambach
Huge fans over here.
- [03:39]
Amanda Doyle
Our only request of you is you do have 48 hours for this talk. I know, exactly.
- [03:44]
Glennon Doyle
I'm so sorry.
- [03:46]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Let me grab some green tea and some almonds so I can make the marathon.
- [03:52]
Amanda Doyle
I mean, we have been sitting with your work for a while and inspired by your work and moved by your work and helped by your work. And when we were thinking about how do we somehow in 50 minutes, design this talk with you in a way that is most helpful to our pod squatters, we thought, okay, well, your new book is so beautiful and so important and all about. Oh, thank you. All about relationships with others. And it makes sense that your first book was all about relationship with self. And it feels, of course, very intentional that in order to have a good relationship with others, you must first establish a good relationship with yourself. And so we were hoping that we might be able to start with you by asking. I would also like to have a good relationship with myself. But the thing is, when I ask myself, myself feels great about it, but I don't know if I can trust her. So could you help the pod Squad with your incredible wisdom and your six questions, teach us how to even know if we are in solid relationship with ourselves?
- [05:10]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, it's a beautiful question and such a great way to start because it is counter to the culture, you know, counter to our societal messages. Teach us to pay attention to everything else and everybody else and to neglect and abandon ourselves. We get rewarded for that. People like it when you have no needs and no self, and then when you'll just shift according to the winds and what people demand of you or want from you. And so to check in with myself is to first actually slow down and begin to tell myself the truth. Because we often do public relations, not just with other people, but sometimes we don't even know the condition of our hearts because we're so used to the automatic, how are you? I'm fine. How are you? I'm blessed. How are you? I'm good. It's like without any reflection. And so to slow down, to take What I like to call sacred pause and to say, how am I living? Because how I'm living is actually the fruit of how I'm feeling, not productivity. How am I living? But how am I living in terms of my care for myself? How is my sleep? How am I eating? Am I eating because I want to live, or am I eating in order to medicate my pain? Has my drinking increased? Because my anxiety has increased? How am I living? And then that will start to tell me the condition of my heart.
- [06:53]
Amanda Doyle
I can't believe you just said, am I eating because I want to live? I have a major history of eating disorders, and I was just trying to explain to my therapist that I think I figured out that my anorexia is a hunger strike. It's like all of this, no, thank you. It's like a voting no.
- [07:15]
Dr. Tama Bryant
You know, it is a no. And it is an attempt at control and an uncontrolled circumstance. So it's like, in this way, I have voice. In this way, I have agency. And this way, I'm in resistance, right? That I'm in rebellion. And so then to shift my rebellion and my voice to what is the new thing I want to say in the midst of all of this.
- [07:45]
Glennon Doyle
Your work is so beautiful and so important to me. And I feel like with Homecoming, the first book, and now Matters of the Heart, it's like this incredible synergy to really, like, full circle it. And I feel like there's so many of us who have lived in, you know, what you call warrior mode or, you know, survival mode. This is the thing that is on top of our insecurities or our traumas or our fears and that we've lived so long like that we think that is who we are. Like, we don't. Especially if things happen in our childhood, which to many of us, it started so early that there is not really. It's hard to even know there's a thing under the thing that's right to get to. And then we show up in our relationship as the same warriors, and then, of course, that goes predictably awful. And then we think like, well, I'm with the wrong person because this isn't working. So in Homecoming, if it's okay with you, can I read those six questions you asked? Because when I heard them, I was like, all right. Okay, I understand what she's talking about now.
- [08:56]
Abby Wambach
And, sister, before you read that, I want the Pod Squad, unless you're driving or doing something active while listening to this, want you to close your eyes because I did this exercise While listening to a different podcast that Tama was on. And it really did hit me. I just close your eyes and be really present with Amanda reading these questions.
- [09:16]
Glennon Doyle
Unless you'd like to, Dr. Tama.
- [09:18]
Dr. Tama Bryant
No, I would love for you to read them. That would be beautiful. Yeah.
- [09:22]
Glennon Doyle
Okay. Does the state of your life, internally or externally, fall short of what you imagined? Did you attain what you thought you wanted only to discover that you still feel empty and unfulfilled? Do you have a sense of powerlessness or hopelessness? Do you lack the energy or motivation to pursue the things that used to matter to you? Do you feel there are no words to capture the ache in your heart? Do you find yourself crying often? Or does it seem impossible to cry? And I will add a seventh one, which is also in a different part of your book, which is do you miss you?
- [10:26]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes, yes, yes, and yes. This is the way we come home to ourselves, is to finally tell ourselves the truth and to recognize that we actually are grief worthy.
- [10:48]
Abby Wambach
Oof.
- [10:49]
Dr. Tama Bryant
The things that we lost, including parts of ourselves, are deserving of our grief as we then alchemize that to the motivation to get ourselves back. I am deserving of the girl I never got to be.
- [11:09]
Abby Wambach
Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
- [11:11]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So, right. All of the times, you know, for all of the times curled up in a bed, for all of the times sleepless, for all of the times tearful. And then that being named as problematic or you're too sensitive, but that's your gift. That's your art. That you didn't totally harden, that the heart is still there beating and pumping and speaking and feeling. And so we get ourselves back. We get ourselves back. And the point you made and the framing is so important that sometimes the violations and the dishonoring happen so early that we really believe the wound itself is our true self. Right. So sometimes we are reclaiming a self we never got to be. Mm. Right. Maybe we never got to be free. We don't know what that looks like, but we get to make it up. We get to create it. No matter how early the scarring and wounding, there is a self which is the soul, which predates the earliest wound.
- [12:30]
Amanda Doyle
I believe that. I believe that. Do the answers to these questions, for example, does the state of your life internally or externally, fall short of what you imagined? Are the answers to these questions in a well inside of us that we use a million things to avoid, to take the edge off? Quote.
- [12:55]
Dr. Tama Bryant
That's right.
- [12:57]
Amanda Doyle
And is it all I always think is inside of that well, just all potential energy? It's like we avoid it, but if we surrender to it, to that grief you're talking about, is that where the alchemizing comes from to sit in it and then it's the potential energy that becomes the kinetic energy to change.
- [13:20]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes, yes, that is so beautifully described. Because we spend so much time running and so much time distracting ourselves. And even our minds can be the distraction where we justify our current circumstance and convince ourselves that this basement life is the penthouse, that this must be the best it can be. So let me just accept it and dress it up and be grateful for it when it is actually a fraction of the life that I can have and that I'm worthy of. And so we stop running. And many times for us, because the traumas and hurts build on themselves. The idea of feeling it can seem to people that it would be too much. Right? Which is why we keep trying to outrun it and say, I don't think about it, I'm good, I don't think about it, I'm fine. Because if I actually was still enough to feel it, then that would be overwhelming. But what we don't realize is in my busyness, I'm still bleeding. In my busyness and distraction, I hurt myself, I hurt other people. I don't live to the fullness of my capacity. And so the out running, it actually is not working. So then we get to honor the gift of finally living in truth. That I'm going to finally tell myself the truth. And that's liberating. People see it as painful, but it's liberating to live in truth.
- [15:12]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, you don't have to run. Is it acceptance when you say, when I accept me, I have nothing to prove? Is it just accepting that all of these things happen? Accepting that this is who you are? Is all of this warrior stuff, is all of this armoring up just an effort to try to prove something else? Because like what are we doing when we're doing that? When we're putting all the things on top and we're saying, I'm not gonna show that I'm gonna. Inside of me feels scared, but outside of me looks strong. What are we doing when we're doing that?
- [15:53]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, we are following one of the biggest desires, which is to be safe. It's self protection. I am running to keep myself safe. Because in my own skin doesn't feel safe. In the presence of others doesn't feel safe, nowhere feels safe. And so if I am excellent enough, if I am busy enough, if I am pretty enough, if I'm productive enough, then that might keep me safe. If I'm religious enough, then that might keep me safe. And so it's all in the pursuit of safety, right? What do I have to do for people one, to not bother me. And then what do I have to do for people to accept me? Even if that means abandoning myself, I will do it for the illusion of their acceptance. Now, when we talk about healing and when I talk about healing and coming home to yourself is not just accepting the truth of what other people did to me, but it is also accepting with grace what I have done to myself.
- [17:10]
Abby Wambach
Yes, right.
- [17:13]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Because we have voice and agency. And if we are honest, there are times in our lives when we didn't believe we were worthy. And so we dishonored ourselves. And I also get to accept the gift of this moment, the gift of my power, the gift of my voice to make a different choice. So that's where it gets liberating, is like I was living in alignment with the lies about me. I was living as if it were true, that I was nothing because I was treated that way or discarded or looked over or underestimated. And when I come out of alignment with that, when I actually say, as an act of resistance, glory in my own truth, Ah, now I can breathe. Now I can be still. Now I don't have to fight people all the time. Now I'm not defensive. But now I can actually get some sleep. Now things shift because I'm at home with myself. And the beautiful part is when you're in the presence of someone who's at home with themselves, it's contagious.
- [18:29]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [18:30]
Amanda Doyle
Yes, it is, right?
- [18:31]
Dr. Tama Bryant
You start to feel more settled too, because, like, they're just there. So you get to see a glimpse of that because many of us have not seen it, because so many people are walking on that balance beam of pretending and performing.
- [18:59]
Abby Wambach
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- [21:07]
Glennon Doyle
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- [22:17]
Amanda Doyle
I want to ask you about a concept and a chapter in matters of the heart that my sister and I have been talking about a lot. It's from the chapter called Gentleness Healing harshness and releasing warrior mode. Podsquad. I'm just gonna read you this right now, and I want you to think about it in terms of the moment we're in in this country and how. I do not know how we're gonna be gentle, but I think that what Tema is telling us is that it's never been more important and that in order to be effective, we have to find this gentleness. Okay. Gentleness is reflective of being at peace with yourself. Even when you don't agree with others, you can be at home within yourself, so you are not easily agitated or offended simply because someone has a different opinion. I know Abby's laughing because if you could just reverse this, Tama, if you could just put not in front of all of it, then you would know me. Okay. Gentleness is not based on fear, but in clarity of who you are. Are you clear enough about you that you don't have to convince others? You are not easily moved, provoked, or irritated? You are not a puppet in your gentleness. You are a person with intentions, voice. You are rooted, not reactive. You can breathe, speak, and act out of the gentle essence of who you are. Okay, that tracks. My question is, how do we do that in the world right now? How do we. We were at an event, and the only things people were asking was this beautiful woman stood up and said, I have been a kind, funny, soft person. I know that's who I am. And now I'm angry and hard and scared all the time, and I feel like the world is stealing myself from me. How do I hold on to who I am? What would you have said to her?
- [24:28]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, that's a beautiful moment of self awareness and self recognition. And the first thing I would say from the standpoint of liberation psychology is that there is nothing wrong with being outraged about outrageous things.
- [24:46]
Abby Wambach
That's right.
- [24:48]
Dr. Tama Bryant
It's madness. This is foolishness. This is chaos. So it's a false teaching to say, notice I said not easily moved instead of not moved. I'm not easily disrupted, and I am moved, passionate, compassionate, fired up about the state of things. But it's not in a reactionary way. It is a grounded way, because what we see happening is not spontaneous. It is strategic, and it has been planned for years. So us then kind of just spontaneously trying to do something will be like chasing fires. So we want to first slow down to nourish ourselves and be gentle with ourselves, because the intention of it is to keep us off balance and panicked, as panicked people don't organize panic. People don't make good decisions, panic, people don't move strategically. And so we get to practice sovereignty, that we will not be puppets. Right. So that gentleness with myself and compassion with myself is also understanding my response and seeing that as something that's actually praiseworthy. I'm glad that people are outraged about outrageous things, because the opposite is to either be okay with it or to be numb. Right. So then we think about how do I care for myself and give myself gentleness, especially during times like this, Right. That I'm going to take an extra long bubble bath, that I'm going to surround myself with gentle people, people who are good for my nervous system, and I'm going to be that for those that I love. Can we become sanctuaries for each other and for it to be a sanctuary? Yes, we want the vocal leaders of movement who will give directives, but we also all really want soft places to land. And so who will I be that for? And who is that for me? That's the gentleness.
- [27:24]
Amanda Doyle
That'S beautiful.
- [27:25]
Abby Wambach
I mean, something that you just said that really landed for me, because so much of what we're experiencing right now, whether it's looking at our phone or watching the news or even talking to people, we have kind of a rule in our family that we're not talking about politics around each other or the children. And because so much of that is nervous system activating.
- [27:53]
Amanda Doyle
And you mean the daily things, like whatever he's done today, whatever is happening.
- [27:57]
Abby Wambach
Today, like the onslaught of stuff that is everybody's experiencing right now? Because the way that that happens and that I experience it comes straight up into my head, and then my head starts to get all jumbled, and then I'm just. And so trying to bring that energy down to the ground. And the grounding that you're talking about is something that I've been reading your work and listening to you on podcasts, and I'm just, like, grounding myself into my sovereignty. And I think that it's such a lesson because it's dramatic. Everything is so dramatic. And the drama lives up high in me. And so if you're listening, try to remember that and bring it down into your core and down to the ground and go for a walk.
- [28:42]
Amanda Doyle
Can you tell us more about sovereignty? What do you mean by sovereignty?
- [28:47]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, it is empowerment, voice, agency. It is to rehumanize in resistance to every force that tries to steal your humanity. To deny your humanity, to be sovereign is to take sacred pause and to choose. I have the capacity people will make and systems I should say that, right? It's not just individuals systems will place all kind of pressures, expectations, shoulds on you. Then you get to pause and decide, just because they said it is so, does that make it so for me? Just because I am being pressed to run in a million directions and the messaging is that that is the only way to survive. Do I want to believe that? Do I believe it? And how do I want to create space in my life for an authentic truth instead of a rehearsed, problematic, dysfunctional life that is scripted, that has been written by people who do not honor me. So I get to say no. That I like to call it the holiness of no. What do I want to say no to? So I can say yes to truth, yes to liberation, yes to wellness, yes to wholeness, yes to breath, yes to rest. To say yes to those things, I have to say no to some other things. And so being empowered to do that. And sovereignty. Some people talk about body sovereignty is especially important for assault survivors. And I'm a sexual assault survivor. And so to come home to your body, right. I'm not just reclaiming my heart and my mind, but also my body and how I treat my body and where I go with my body. And to honor that right, because in a moment of violation, the message from offenders is what you want doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what they want. So now if I live my whole life now doing with my body what other people demand of it, and never honoring the truth of what I want, what I need, what I desire, then I'm out of sovereignty. Then I have continued to live based on that moment or those moments. But instead I get to choose. I get to choose and care for this body.
- [31:48]
Amanda Doyle
It's so interesting because even though I love it and I'm in it, but it's what bothers me about the resistance word. Cause it's like if I'm resisting all the time, then the other thing is always the boss of me. Like the. The thing I'm resisting is the agent of my life, Right?
- [32:06]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. Let me. Sure. Let me tell you, it's a both. And so there is liberation or decolonial work, which is around what you're disrupting. Right. And then the other aspect of the work is what I am building, what I am creating, what I am imagining. And both pieces are necessary. So you are correct. We don't want to live our whole lives trying to be the opposite of what other people want. But it's that I want to live in my truth. So to live in my truth, that is going to mean pushing past the voices that are trying to put their truth on me. Like that is a part of the process, but that's not the end of the process. Now I'm about dreaming, creating, manifesting, living, soaring, shining. But I will say, you know, resistance is a part of it. And I. It's just a matter of if that becomes the only thing. Right? If that becomes the central thing, then we never got to live.
- [33:22]
Amanda Doyle
Yes.
- [33:24]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, it's so interesting because what you're saying, like the work that you do on the micro personal level feels exactly the same to me as what you're describing on the macro level. That like we are living either in reaction to triggers, in which case we are given the false choices. You can do this or this, these are your only two choices. Or we can take the sacred pause and say, absolutely not. Those are not my two choices. I am going to start from inside and work my way out. So like, when you're talking about the chaos, that is very, very intentional. The flood of our nervous systems, that is very, very, very intentional. The difference between resistance and reaction is like they're very intentionally triggering in a very strategic way so that we think our false choices are, I need to bury myself under this and put my head in the sand because this is too much, or I need to react to every single thing you do and flap in the wind and expend all of my energy in a non productive way.
- [34:34]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, both of your points together remind me of the continuum of acts of resistance. Right, so you know, going to a protest march, signing a petition, advocating for something, contacting your political official, all of those can be acts of resistance. Resistance is also being loving. Resistance. Resistance is also our rest. What Tricia Hersey writes about resistance is, in spite of all of this, we're going to have this joyful moment and the family is going to turn on whatever this movie is and eat this popcorn and we're going to laugh because we will not be consumed. And does that mean we're permanently checking out? No, we're filling our tanks because we and our families are worthy of joy, are worthy of rest, are worthy of tenderness. So, you know, you don't often think about tenderness as an act of resistance, but it is right. To be gentle with ourselves is to refuse to treat myself like a machine. So these social messages have taught us that our busyness and our labor is our worth. And so if I'm just going to sit on this couch and look out the window, that is an act of resistance against the machine and against turning myself into a machine. So all of these things are ways that we honor our wholeness, our wellness, our humanity, and prevent ourselves from being caught up and prevent ourselves from being devoured.
- [36:20]
Amanda Doyle
Devoured, consumed. It reminds me of one of my favorite writers, Cole Arthur Riley, always says, if you are not in your body, then someone else is.
- [36:31]
Dr. Tama Bryant
I love that. I love that it's true.
- [36:34]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah. If we don't say what you're calling self sovereign, then who's in our bodies? The news trump wellness culture. Whatever it is, something's in there directing your steps. If it's not you, something's in there.
- [36:47]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [36:48]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So to take it back, to take it back. And that also requires the courage to do some evictions. Who and what do I need to put out so I can actually inhabit myself, so that I can reside with me.
- [37:08]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah, I love that. I know that you're in the church and so when you start using that language, I get very excited because I can't get it out of me. I was in the evangelical. Jesus is my first language, but it feels like exorcisms to me. All of it. Wellness, beauty, white supremacy. One at a time. It's just all exorcism, exorcism, exorcism. And it feels that dramatic to me.
- [37:32]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And it is important that we nourish our spirits. Right. You know, we think about what do I do for my mind, what do I do for my body, and then on that soul level, what speaks to me and what helps me to get free? I like to say get free and stay free, which is an ongoing process.
- [37:51]
Amanda Doyle
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- [39:03]
Glennon Doyle
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- [42:04]
Amanda Doyle
Sissy, give an example from you so that we can actually not talk about it theoretically.
- [42:09]
Glennon Doyle
Okay. Well, I mean, the gentleness chapter, I have to say, I was very mad at you for that. Like, that was very. That was like a real. A real kick in the butt for me, because I've really struggled with that a lot. I have, like, an aversion to it even when people that. I don't really know how to describe it, but there is something in me that. When even people have gentleness towards me or I am supposed to, I know I'm supposed to be expressing it, except with my kids, it's almost intolerable. And so when you were describing how, like, holding onto gentleness is holding onto me, I realized that there was something there that I was, like, not connected to. So I am much quicker to when I am scared. An example is when I'm scared about something. When I feel alone in something, like, for example, parenting or I'm carrying something I'm scared of, my reaction is anger, judgment, you're doing this wrong. So I immediately go to anger when it's. There's actually something under it, because I think those things feel too gentle and soft for me to touch. I mean, I don't know if that's.
- [43:33]
Dr. Tama Bryant
The kind of example, but that's a beautiful example. And I want to honor the warrior in you. She showed up for a reason, and she has stayed for multiple reasons. And so I honor your fight, and I also honor the ways you have tried to protect yourself and protect those that you care about. And I understand why you have come to believe that gentleness is weakness. And the idea that gentleness is not safe and the idea that somebody has to be willing to fight and speak. So for some reason, that has been your job. Yeah. So now, in this season of your.
- [44:31]
Glennon Doyle
Life.
- [44:33]
Dr. Tama Bryant
You get to retire. The warrior in you is actually allowed now to rest because they have been on call for a long time, and that has meant the other parts of you never fully got to develop. And, you know, the warrior's not gone. Like, if you need her, she can show up. She can show up and get things done, but she actually doesn't need to be in charge 24 7. And while your inner warrior has done some great Things. It also has cost you some things. The discomfort of accessing your heart. And so it can be lonely and exhausting to fight all the time. And it also can cause us to mistake some people for enemies who really didn't mean you any harm. So then it's about tolerating the discomfort of being different. And let me also say, for you and for many of us, whenever we're trying to shift something, it's going to feel fake.
- [46:06]
Glennon Doyle
That's a good call out. Because then when you're like, well, I'm doing this horseshit thing, it's okay. You're supposed to feel like that.
- [46:15]
Dr. Tama Bryant
It's supposed to fake.
- [46:16]
Amanda Doyle
Okay.
- [46:17]
Glennon Doyle
Okay, that's good, right?
- [46:20]
Dr. Tama Bryant
You're faking it till you make it okay. Until it becomes more true. Right? I was doing work with a parent of an adult child, and the adult child really wanted the parent to say they love them. And that's just not in the wheelhouse of this person. It's not how they were brought up. So you kept saying, like, it feels fake. I'm like, it's only fake if you actually don't love your child. Right? You love her. It's just uncomfortable to say it. So you feel like this must be like some little fake TV program where I'm like, I love you. Right? Yeah, Ashley. So I lean into it because I'm changing, and what feels familiar to me is who I had to become. It's actually not the truth of me.
- [47:08]
Glennon Doyle
It feels fake because you don't recognize it in your authentic self, but you don't recognize it in your authentic self because you never had the chance to show up. Up that way.
- [47:16]
Dr. Tama Bryant
You never got to be that. And you probably have resentment for people who are, like, all soft, because then you're like, somebody else must be doing their work.
- [47:25]
Amanda Doyle
Listen, Disdain.
- [47:27]
Glennon Doyle
Disdain is.
- [47:27]
Amanda Doyle
She can't take it.
- [47:30]
Glennon Doyle
I'm like, gross. Yuck. Ick.
- [47:35]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Because you're like, how dare you? Right? How dare you get to walk through or think that you can walk through the world like that. And it's your turn.
- [47:46]
Abby Wambach
And, yeah, it's gonna be like, you're like Bambi. Like, that's like the awkward, icky, weird feeling because it's a part of yourself that you haven't connected with in a long time. So of course it's gonna feel weird and maybe even fake.
- [48:01]
Amanda Doyle
Reckless. It's gonna feel reckless. Okay, so for Amanda, and for any pod squatters who are Amanda, like, there are many.
- [48:11]
Dr. Tama Bryant
There are many.
- [48:12]
Amanda Doyle
So sorry, everyone, for the warriors out there, can you give Them just an actual practical thing to do. Because I'm picturing my sister, I don't know, like in a conversation or in a meeting when she's about to try to act fake gentle. Because eventually the gentle will become real. But what is a thing that we can do when we feel a trigger and we would like to try the other fake thing. How do we get our bodies, like our traumatized self, to quiet down so our self, sovereign self, can make a choice?
- [48:47]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. So one of the skills, well, of course one thing is breath. Because when we're panicked and triggered, we're not breathing, right. And we're like, danger, danger, danger. All the alarms are going off. And so now I'm going to bring the fire, right? So one of the things that's important to start to do is allow yourself to put the situation on a scale, right? On a scale 1 to 10, how dangerous is this? Or how disrespectful is this? Because many times for warriors, they don't comprehend a 2 or 3 or a 4. Everything is a 10.
- [49:27]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [49:28]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And so now you're drained and you're fighting people with the venom of years of violation. And what they did was actually like a two. Now you're exhausted. Yeah.
- [49:42]
Glennon Doyle
For words it's a zero or a ten. There is no.
- [49:45]
Amanda Doyle
But I'll tell you, you didn't do it or you did it, but now it's a 10. But now it's a 10. After you come to them with the venom of a thousand witches, right.
- [49:55]
Dr. Tama Bryant
They started to attend. So to give myself and that sometimes we think, oh, I'm doing that for them, or I'm letting them off easy is do I really want to use all of my resources on things that are not drama worthy? Like there are enough legitimate things to be fighting, right. And somebody saying something off the wall is probably a one or a two, right. I mean, depending on what they said and who they are in relationship to you and what they have the power to do with that opinion. But to begin to scale it so then I can scale my response. So I start to make a decision that I am not going to bring the fullness of my rage to minor situations. I'm not. Not because I'm protecting them only for me. I'm conserving myself, right? So what is sustainable? And then it will help for me to have curiosity because often I'm responding with an intensity because I think I know the whole story. I am making meaning that may not be the fullness of what's happening. So let me Become curious about, like, I think I know why they did that and what else could be a reason why they did that and what else and what else? And so when I'm curious, I'm not so stuck in my script that is often based on these past triggers.
- [51:37]
Glennon Doyle
I hear that because I have a stories, like, I have stories in my relationship that is like, well, those are the three stories. So any data falls into one of those three baskets, and there is no other story, and those are them. So I get that a lot.
- [51:52]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. And let me say, you know when you talked about, like, being in a meeting, you know, as opposed to, like, fake gentle.
- [52:02]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [52:03]
Dr. Tama Bryant
You know, for me to think about it as grounded, let me think about it as clear. Let me think about it as sitting in my sovereignty. Right. So that is more maybe empowering language than, like, let me think about how to be fake gentle. Right.
- [52:27]
Amanda Doyle
That is better.
- [52:28]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right. How can I be grounded in myself in this moment? And this may be designed to get a reaction out of me. Do I want to give them that? Maybe, maybe not.
- [52:44]
Amanda Doyle
It's more powerful. It's not less powerful. It's more powerful.
- [52:49]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. Because that's the thing. If we equate it with weakness, it's like, do I want to be weak in this moment? No, it's. Do I want to give them my power in this moment? Do I want to give them all my energy in this moment? And how do I want to move effectively and strategically to shift the tide? Especially if I'm in a meeting, then I'm trying to get a different result. So then it may require what a lot of business people do is a meeting before the meeting. Right. So now when I come out of here, I'm going to talk to you. I'm going to talk to you. I'm going to talk to you, and we gonna shift the tide. So the next time we come to the big meeting. Oh, it's gonna be a different story. But they don't need to know that right now. Right now I'm just going to nod and listen. Yeah.
- [53:34]
Glennon Doyle
Because it's really about aligning yourself with your intention as opposed to what feels like a compulsive response is what often feels like. It's like it used to be. And I'm starting to work with this now. But it used to be, like, I would feel. This is why I love your work about, like, body work. Feel it in my body rising up, and I'm like, here it is. It's out. But now that sacred pause when you're talking About I've just started to be able to feel it in my body rising up, and I'm like, okay, that's not like a green light for it's coming out. It is a sign of, like, I need to triple check that what is going to come out is actually aligned with my intentions for myself. Like, I don't really care about who's on the other end of it, but like is what I want. That's coming out to be. As opposed to something that I'm going to be like, damn it, right now.
- [54:38]
Dr. Tama Bryant
They took me out of myself.
- [54:41]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [54:41]
Dr. Tama Bryant
You know, and now I got to either repair that or now I'm embarrassed, or now, like, I'm digging in even more and I don't care that everybody's upset.
- [54:50]
Amanda Doyle
That ship is sailed. Now.
- [54:53]
Dr. Tama Bryant
I'm going to stick with it. I do want to say it was beautiful that you mentioned the exception of your children.
- [55:00]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [55:02]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right.
- [55:02]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [55:03]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So then when you're being gentle with them is authentic, right?
- [55:08]
Glennon Doyle
Yes. It's the only place in my life and I'm. I thank God for it all the time. That it is like I have an endless capacity to receive their softness and give softness and joy. And it is a sliver of my life that I'm so grateful for because I don't know if I'd be able to. I feel really sad for people. I can look at other areas of my life and be like, that's hard for me to deal with, like, what has happened in my life in that area. But I feel really thankful that there's this one. So I know it's like a laboratory for something.
- [55:43]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. That it's possible for you, that it exists for you. And it's. With your children. You feel safe. So now it's. How do I spread that? Cultivate that in other spaces to feel safe with other people.
- [55:59]
Amanda Doyle
I'm really grateful that you brought up safe again. Because what I'd like to do is if we could circle back to the beginning. And so much of your work is in the new book. It really is like a bunch of different ideas about how people keep themselves safe. And then those ways that we keep ourselves safe actually keep ourselves completely isolated from the person we're trying to reach. Right. Because it has struck me over the past couple of years that life is absolutely not safe. Love is not safe and friendship is not safe, and work is not safe. And whatever I was going for in terms of control and safety. I need a different word. I think we all need a different you. I mean, you're the way that you speak the languages of science and spirituality and all, it's just, what is the goal? Like, what is a better thing we're aiming for other than safe? Because safe is not life.
- [57:02]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, it is to be fully alive and to be give and receive love that we can do. Am I living the fullness of myself? Am I being the truth of me? Am I living in alignment with my values and my purpose? And then, you know, when I show up in spaces and in my heart, I already know I am loved. Doesn't matter. May not be with these people, right? May not be in this meeting or with strangers, but when I have that as my foundation, then I go out in the world in a different way, that I am not starving for it, I'm not searching for it. I'm not contorting myself. I already know that I am known, accepted and loved, including by myself. Once I have that, that changes things. Now I still want to, like, spread that and create that in the world. But sometimes when we are not living in truth and don't have that foundation of love, like, our outrage alone will not sustain us. People who have led major movements were often people of various faith traditions. Because you have to have the capacity to believe for what does not yet exist. Whatever the root of that, your. Your hope, your faith, your possibility, that then can come from a great sense of love, even for humanity. Right? Because I love humanity. Then I'm going to keep working to make things better so that everybody can have the right to live the fullness of themselves and to experience being known, accepted, loved.
- [59:13]
Abby Wambach
Sister, can I say something to you? And I just want to ask you a question. So I want to honor this maybe idea that you want to, like, engage in your gentleness and work. And I know that you work with us on a daily basis. What can I do? And what can Glennon do to make you feel safe, more safe, so that you can Bambi your gentleness around even in the workplace if you wished.
- [59:39]
Amanda Doyle
And also, does even that question make you want to jump and strangle her or.
- [59:44]
Glennon Doyle
No, I'm dealing with my nausea over the question because it's beautiful. So beautiful. And I think just patience, like, I think they'll probably have some moments where I'm just like, not responding and need a minute to let the electricity settle so I can figure out what I actually want to communicate and say. So maybe just a little bit of grace and patience in. I'm going to try to be responding less quickly. And I think that it's so interesting and beautiful. What you just said, Tama, because it's like when you love yourself and have clarity over yourself, then you don't have to fight all these small battles, right? I feel like so much of what we do, whether it's in our relationship or I'm worthy of love, I'm worthy of being paid attention to, I'm worthy of all these things that I'm not getting or whatever it is. It's like so much of that is our effort to try to prove these things or get these things for ourselves. But I think what your work is saying is if we give those things to ourselves, we don't have to spend our whole lives begging people and shaming people for not giving them to us. And doesn't that open up a whole vat of energy and possibilities for the bigger fights we could be having for the world? It's beautiful.
- [61:28]
Dr. Tama Bryant
I want to appreciate the question and appreciate you sitting with the answer. So the answer you gave, if you don't mind you saying, was what you're going to do, which is to take pause, and the question was, is there anything you would like them to do?
- [61:47]
Glennon Doyle
I think maybe accepting some awkwardness and slowness, which is a difference in my responses, or like, if you're asking me things, I might need a little more time to access what the answer is under the thing. Or if things happen and I feel charged, I might just say, like, give me a minute on that one, because I don't want to answer out of charge. I want to answer out of more clarity. Yeah, that's what I.
- [62:25]
Amanda Doyle
That's good.
- [62:26]
Glennon Doyle
That's what I think.
- [62:28]
Abby Wambach
Granted.
- [62:29]
Glennon Doyle
Thank you.
- [62:31]
Amanda Doyle
Okay, Pod Squad, I know that you're going to. I would. If I had just listened to this, I would want to go by all of Dr. Bryant's books. So please, please do yourself a big favor and get homecoming and get matters of the heart. Your work is revolutionary and everyone knows that. So I'm not telling you anything new, but I am deeply, deeply grateful for you and your work. Thank you.
- [62:55]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Thank you so much for having me. It has been so beautiful spending time with the three of you and also following your work and your compassion and your authenticity. I think it frees people and that's a part of the big draw to be able to see three folks who are themselves the truth of themselves in conversation. So bless you for your work and thank you for the opportunity to share.
- [63:26]
Amanda Doyle
Thank you. We can do hard things, Todd Squad. Gently. We can do hard things gently, yes.
- [63:31]
Glennon Doyle
And maybe only gently can we do hard things that might be.
- [63:36]
Amanda Doyle
Okay. Bye POD Squad. See you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott and Bill Schultz.
- [64:52]
Glennon Doyle
Sam.