Abby’s Greatest Fear & the One Gift that Freed Her

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things: Episode Summary Episode: Abby’s Greatest Fear & the One Gift that Freed Her
Release Date: January 28, 2025
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Produced by: Audacy

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1. Addressing the Present Crisis in Los Angeles

The episode begins with the hosts acknowledging the ongoing devastating fires in Los Angeles, emphasizing the widespread fear and loss experienced by the community. Glennon Doyle expresses heartfelt sympathy:

Glennon Doyle [07:01]: “I just want to say to the folks that are horrifyingly been affected by these fires, you know, this is just so difficult. It’s a really, really, really, really devastating time for so many people.”

Abby Wambach reflects on the historical and cultural significance of Altadena, connecting it to the late author Octavia Butler:

Abby Wambach [08:07]: “I just learned that Octavia Butler is buried in Altadena. It feels bespoke.”

2. Glennon’s Journey Through Grief and Fear of Death

A significant portion of the episode delves into Glennon Doyle’s personal struggle with the fear of death, a fear compounded by her upbringing in the Catholic faith. She shares her internal battle with the belief instilled by her faith that being true to her queer identity could condemn her to hell.

Glennon Doyle [10:24]: “I have had this very large fear of death, and I've been working on it for the last couple of years. I had the distinct honor to work with and through and learn how to embody the grief of losing my brother Peter this past year...”

Glennon discusses her Catholic upbringing and the internalized homophobia that stemmed from it:

Glennon Doyle [11:50]: “I was born and raised in the Catholic faith tradition... I still needed to be gay, because I was. It was like, almost this choice that I had to make because between, like, I'm going to be gay, and if that happens, like, this is just who I am.”

3. Abby’s Insightful Intervention

Abby Wambach recounts a pivotal moment where she helps Glennon reframe her fear of hell through a metaphor involving St. Peter, the gatekeeper of heaven:

Abby Wambach [16:50]: “During the time that Abby has been healing from this pinpointed fear of hell... I have watched Abby grieve the loss of her brother.”

Abby presents Glennon with a uniquely crafted St. Peter medallion, symbolizing Peter’s role in heaven and offering Glennon a new perspective:

Glennon Doyle [32:57]: “This was the most important gift you could give me. Not just the medallion, but the story that can help me reshape my belief system.”

The medallion serves as a tangible reminder of love, existence, and the possibility of redefined beliefs about the afterlife.

4. Re-examining Conditioned Beliefs

The hosts emphasize the importance of questioning and reassessing deeply ingrained beliefs, especially those rooted in fear and misinformation. Glennon highlights the significance of understanding the origins of these beliefs:

Glennon Doyle [25:37]: “This has taught me to re-examine some of these conditioned beliefs, some of these deep things that are in us and why they're in us and who taught them to us.”

Abby elaborates on how societal and familial teachings contribute to these fears:

Abby Wambach [17:16]: “These beliefs... they're hard to disprove in yourself. And so, like, I don't know if you are wondering and if you have some overall, like, big fears. To me, what has helped is to understand when they got embedded in me.”

5. The Power of Stories and Imagination

A compelling discussion unfolds around the influence of stories and the narratives we internalize. The hosts argue that the stories we tell ourselves shape our perceptions and realities:

Abby Wambach [40:21]: “Stories ruin lives. Stories divide civilization. Stories could blow up our planet.”

They advocate for creating positive, empowering narratives to counteract harmful ones. Glennon underscores the importance of curating optimistic stories for a healthier mindset:

Glennon Doyle [43:12]: “How are we out here trying to curate the most optimistic, positive, motivating stories so that, like, we can actually enjoy what's happening here?”

6. Embracing Change and Personal Growth

The conversation circles back to embracing change and personal evolution. Glennon shares her experience with therapy and understanding her internal belief systems through internal family systems:

Glennon Doyle [31:37]: “I started therapy... to work on my shadow side. And it led me down this wild path that I feel like was preparing me for my brother's death.”

Abby encourages listeners to expand their perspectives and consider alternative possibilities beyond binary choices:

Abby Wambach [48:23]: “Tell yourself you're going to give yourself 24 hours. You're not going to make that decision today. And instead, you're going to dream up what is C, D, and E and F.”

7. Conclusion and Final Reflections

In closing, the hosts reiterate the themes of love, existence, and the transformative power of reimagining one’s beliefs. They emphasize the importance of support, community, and the continuous journey of personal growth.

Glennon Doyle [36:01]: “It was so incredible. And so, of course, I call my mom... But I will say what this has taught me more than anything is to re-examine some of these conditioned beliefs.”

Abby Wambach [50:32]: “He'll take care of it. We love you, POD Squad, so much.”

The episode wraps up with a positive note on upcoming projects and a reminder to listeners to engage with the community and continue their personal journeys.

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Key Takeaways

• Coping with Loss and Fear: Navigating grief and existential fears requires support, introspection, and sometimes reimagining deeply held beliefs.
• Reframing Beliefs: Challenging and redefining conditioned fears, especially those rooted in upbringing and religion, can lead to profound personal liberation.
• Power of Stories: The narratives we internalize shape our reality. Creating positive and empowering stories can transform our perceptions and experiences.
• Embracing Change: Personal growth involves embracing change, expanding perspectives, and continuously re-evaluating one’s beliefs and fears.
• Community and Support: Sharing struggles and supporting each other can lighten the emotional load and foster a sense of belonging and understanding.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Glennon Doyle [07:01]: “This is just so difficult. It’s a really, really, really, really devastating time for so many people.”
• Abby Wambach [08:07]: “I just learned that Octavia Butler is buried in Altadena. It feels bespoke.”
• Glennon Doyle [10:24]: “I have had this very large fear of death...”
• Abby Wambach [16:50]: “I have watched Abby grieve the loss of her brother.”
• Glennon Doyle [32:57]: “This was the most important gift you could give me.”
• Abby Wambach [40:21]: “Stories ruin lives. Stories divide civilization. Stories could blow up our planet.”
• Glennon Doyle [43:12]: “How are we out here trying to curate the most optimistic, positive, motivating stories...”

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This episode of We Can Do Hard Things offers a raw and honest exploration of fear, grief, and the transformative power of reimagining one’s beliefs. Through personal anecdotes and heartfelt discussions, the hosts provide listeners with valuable insights and encouragement to confront and overcome their own hard things.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

I know it's real. Just to Symbiotica. Thank you for making my wife so happy.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life changing difference. That's why I think ALMA is so cool. ALMA connects you with real therapists who understand your unique experience. You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships or anything else. And what stands out to me about Alma is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through ALMA say their therapist made them feel seen and heard. You know, I love that that level of connection isn't something you can get from scrolling through online advice or following social media. It's about finding someone who truly understands your journey and is dedicated to helping you make progress better with people, better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com hardthings to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's hello a l m a.com hardthings welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We the three of us talked about what we might like to share with you today and here's where we came to. It is a tough time in Los Angeles, where Abby and I live right now. We actually live in a town right outside of Los Angeles. So as you know, we have been protected from the fires in our home, but not from the just fear and devastation of all of it because so many of our people are suffering. And we've been talking a lot about what all of this means and the loss of life and the loss of things and we just thought maybe it would be a beautiful time to rewind a few weeks and talk about a happier time, which was our holiday experience as a family together. And that. That just might feel like a really cozy, warm, wonderful thing to do today. You know, I have been thinking a lot about my team will start laughing because of the amount of times that I say this, but I'm obsessed with words. So whenever I can't understand something, I just try to go deep into the entomology of a word. I recently learned that I was saying the etymology of a word, which is actually the study of bugs. So entomology of a word means where.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wait, do you have it correct?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Entomology is words. Etymology is bugs.

[Glennon Doyle]

Are you sure?

[Abby Wambach]

Never.

[Amanda Doyle]

But I'm pretty surprised by this, so I'm googling. Yes, I'm pretty sure it was always etymology, so maybe entomology.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think you might have it backwards, because I took a course and this is neither here nor there, because this is studying an Abby. And. But entomology is the study of bugs. I was.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, so etymology is the study of words. The irony of this conversation, this has gone.

[Glennon Doyle]

Check it out.

[Amanda Doyle]

You can remember entomology sounds like ant. Oh, that's.

[Glennon Doyle]

Are we sure? Did you confirm?

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, I know that etymology is the study of words, so.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. All right. So good. Let's just land there. This conversation has gone houry before anyway.

[Amanda Doyle]

And it's like the origin. The origin of the words.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, the etymology of the word crisis. Stay with me. Okay. The word crisis. The origin of the word crisis means to sift. So listen, this is cool. Crisis. Not good, bad, terrible. We try to avoid that. But it is cool for me to think of what crises tend to do, which is if you picture a little kid with one of those sieves that they take to the beach, you know, and they, like, scoop up all the sand. And the reason they scoop up all that sand is because they hope that the sand will filter out the bottom and there will be little treasures left inside the little sea glass and the shells and all of that. And I. Bugs. Bugs. If you're into entomology. Yes, babe, thanks. And I do know through so many experiences that we wouldn't ask for it to come. But what crisis does tend to do is put into sharp relief the treasures of your life. All of the things that you hold so dear and love. The most important things. And that's what you're seeing right now all over Los Angeles with people just holding their people so tight and rushing to take care of each other. And you know, the people who have had their things saved because their houses were spared. One of the interesting things is you are watch, watching these people ransack their own homes, bring everything they own to these shelters because they want to give the things that they do have. You can see it playing out. People valuing community and love above things. It's just. You can see the treasures that crisis brings, even if we don't. Even if we'd prefer a different process. So, anyway, let's talk about love and family and treasures today.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, Steve? Yeah. I just want to say to the folks that are horrifically been affected by these fires, you know, this is just so difficult. I mean, there's nothing you can say. It's a really, really, really, really devastating time for so many people. And just love you guys and we're with you somehow.

[Abby Wambach]

Do you guys know how in the episode that we did with Jessica Yellen, Jessica's still here, by the way, in our house with her little Bruno and sheltering here. How we talked about Altadena, the city, the historically black neighborhood in LA that has been burned to the ground. And we talked a lot about that city. And then right after that, we were talking about Octavia Butler and Adrienne Maree Brown and all that Octavia Butler taught us about. She wrote about the future in like a dystopian way, but it was absolutely applicable to life now. And I just learned that Octavia Butler is buried in Altadena.

[Glennon Doyle]

What?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. I just didn't tell you that. No, I know.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow.

[Abby Wambach]

I know. It feels bespoke.

[Amanda Doyle]

What's so wild about that? The Altadena and Butler thing is that her whole world that she created through her fiction was post apocalyptic worlds. That was the point of her work. It's gonna be really wild to go back and reread her work with like, you know, she has people who live in Altadena in her fiction and just like what that is gonna mean for people who have experienced this kind of apocalyptic scenario and how to live after it.

[Abby Wambach]

She has this little hero in her. In the Parable of the Sower, which I think is one of her most famous books.

[Amanda Doyle]

That was in Altadena. I mean, that was based there.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And I just remember this little one had a set of principles of her new religion isn't the right word, but way of seeing the world. And the first one over and over again, I think was God has change. God is change. God is change. And there is obviously something there that is embraceable. Even though change is Unembraceable. Like, it literally sifts through your hands, like the crisis conversation. But the idea that love is change and that there is truth in the falling apart, that there's a way to find love in God, even in the midst of it all slipping through your fingers, I feel like we're kind of seeing that. It's hard to explain. And if you're not here, the horror is so stark, that the bright moments are just so much brighter. Like, it's like a night sky, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. I woke up this morning and the moon was. I don't know if it was full, but it was shining, and you could see it over the ocean. And it was just. It was amazing. And actually, I read you the quote that John Mayer said about the fires.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's just the proof of existence is so important.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I think that that's one of the reasons why we wanted to talk about this holiday thing. Should I tell my story?

[Abby Wambach]

Please, babe.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. So I don't know if anybody is, like, totally aware of this, but I have had this very large fear of death, and I've been working on it for the last couple of years. I had the distinct honor to work with and through and learn how to embody the grief of losing my brother Peter this past year, which obviously has been incredibly hard and brutal in moments. And also, it's just been, like, the most kind of enlightening thing, and it's gotten me to sit with that fear of death. Now, I wish I could say, like, I no longer have the fear of death. I'm still a little uncomfortable with it, to be perfectly honest.

[Amanda Doyle]

Still not your favorite thing.

[Abby Wambach]

Still not.

[Glennon Doyle]

Still not excited about it when you.

[Abby Wambach]

Were in through all of your thoughts. And I already know this answer, so I'm just asking it, like, I'm an interviewer, but, like, what have you identified as the source of your. What you would call outsized terror of death?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I was born and raised in the Catholic faith tradition. And I think that from the time that I started to know that I was queer, lesbian teenager, I started to kind of wonder, what does this mean? And it was interesting because even though at the time everything and people in my life were telling me that I would go to hell, literally, the church was basically telling me in all of the ways that I would go to hell, I was still believing that on some level and knowing that was a possibility in the outcome of my life, I still needed to be gay, because I was. It was like, almost this choice that I had to make because between, like, I'm going to be gay, and if that happens, like, this is just who I am. Right. And so all along, throughout my life, I've just harbored this misbelief. I think I need to categorize it more as a misbelief that if I were to do this thing, if I were to be gay and live in a gay life, that, in fact, I would go to hell. And so that was something that I've carried with me and that has created some serious internalized homophobia inside of my own body. Fear of myself, all the things. And not too long ago, you had a conversation with me that kind of pretty much changed my life.

[Abby Wambach]

Do you remember we sat down on a bed and I said, I have something to report.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I have something to report. And what Glennon proceeded to tell me, and by the way, I actually have, like, a little bit of, like, I can't believe you didn't tell me a year ago.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Vibe.

[Abby Wambach]

I knew when it was time.

[Amanda Doyle]

Report as soon as you know.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, No, I knew when it was time.

[Glennon Doyle]

I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready yet because I had to go through a grieving problem. Anyways, you'll understand, folks, when I get to the part of the story, and I'll get there, I promise. Glennon sits me down and do you want to tell them how you explained it to me, or do you want me to tell it?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I'm happy to do that. I mean, I can tell you to my best ability how I reported it to you. I. I said, I have something to report. It's an important report. And you said, what's the report? This is something that we say to each other every once in a while because I'll be thinking about something.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's really funny that that's something you say to each other, like, breaking news.

[Abby Wambach]

It is. It feels like breaking news to me, like, because sometimes it's something I been like, noodling in my head for a long time, and then it feels like it's ready to. The way I can describe it is it feels like it's ready to be reported. Like, it takes a while for it to be ready to report it.

[Amanda Doyle]

And I had to fact check it. I had to see if I had.

[Abby Wambach]

Concurring sources, you know, that I didn't.

[Glennon Doyle]

And there's a difference between, like, hey, you know, the weather is this outside. It's important. So she's like, I have something to report. And I'm like, oh. And so that's my knowing. I'VE got to sit down and be completely, completely ready to listen.

[Amanda Doyle]

Focus in. Okay?

[Abby Wambach]

Right. And it's usually something that's a little bit weird. Okay? So here's what I reported. I reported this. You. Your biggest issue this last although so many years has been your terror of death. We have identified that the distinct terror of death is not just a terror of death, it is a terror of hell. Okay? It is absolutely not a mystery why you are scared of hell. You are a small child.

[Amanda Doyle]

Quite logical to be afraid of hell burning for eternity. Seems like you're just acting very reasonably. That is not an outsized fear. That is an appropriate sized fear.

[Abby Wambach]

And the. Please, like the poor pod squad doesn't need to hear me go off again about the utter insanity of. Of teaching small children that there are fires of hell waiting for them if they don't nail this. Okay? How do you nail it?

[Glennon Doyle]

We don't know.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay? Just be alert.

[Amanda Doyle]

One can't know. Just keep your head on a swivel.

[Abby Wambach]

It's unfreaking believable. Okay? That is one of the reasons why I love talking about this. I think it's important that people see in real time a case study of someone who's being very honest with you. Because people don't tell this story or they haven't had the access to the work that will help them untangle this story to as a fine of a point as we can put on it. But this is what happens, okay? You have a fear of hell. That fear of hell was placed inside of you purposefully by many, many confused adults and systems and cultures, okay?

[Amanda Doyle]

Who were also afraid of hell. So they were just like, we don't.

[Abby Wambach]

Know, but be like us right now. Here's what I am saying to you. If we are going to live our lives in fear of a magical fairy place that has been decided probably was meant as a poem.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay?

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

I like to consider myself an amateur poet. I know a poem when I see one. Okay? I have read the Bible. I have read it. I have read it front to back. Which by the way, I'm saying in this voice because many of the freaking ministers I've met with that asking my questions, I feel like they haven't. That's all I'm saying. I've asked some pointed questions. Now what I will say is I know a poem when I see it. I know when we talk about the fires of hell and the. All the. Lots of those things are metaphors anyway. Some people decided it was literal. They taught it to you. I have Some other poetic ideas. If we're going to accept this thing that's going to control our lives out of fear, based on some imagery and some poetry, I have an alternative poem to submit to the court.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. Great, great.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. And it is as follows. During the time that Abby has been healing from this pinpointed fear of hell passed to her by the Catholic Church and her family passed from the Catholic Church via her family to her, I have also watched Abby grieve the loss of her brother. Right. So these two things have been tied together for the past year. Just tied together. Losing Peter, fear of death and hell, just. That's been her path. One side of the path is each of those things. I, because of my contempt for and delight it. I am equally appalled by and intrigued by religion. I can't stand it and love it in equal measures. I want to obliterate it and want to be obliterated in it equally. It's a confusing thing, but I feel like some people really understand that because of that. I know a lot about the imagery and the. I just love to read about it. I'd love to study about it. Okay. Peter. Abby's brother Peter. Judy Wambach is Abby's mother. And she is just as Catholic as our Grandma Alice. Like, she just named all of her kids after just, you know, saints and various virgin mothers of God. And Abby's real name is Mary, and we've got the Peters, and we've. All of them are just named after saints in the Catholic Church. Okay. Peter was Jesus's bff, Saint Peter. Yeah, well, he wasn't Saint Peter yet.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right, right.

[Abby Wambach]

He was a dude.

[Glennon Doyle]

The Apostle Peter. No longer talking about my brother.

[Abby Wambach]

Right, right, right. Abby's brother.

[Amanda Doyle]

We don't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

We don't know.

[Amanda Doyle]

He could have been.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right?

[Abby Wambach]

St. Peter, Jesus's best friend. They're so tight that when they all ascend to heaven, Jesus assigns Peter the role of being the gatekeeper of heaven. Okay? St. Peter's whole gig, to the point where his image, his. His little icon is a set of keys. Okay? St. Peter's role in the church is I decide who gets in and out of heaven. I guard the gates of heaven. I hold the keys to eternal life. Okay? So I tell Abby what I'm here to report to you is that you no longer have to fear any. You can celebrate the future moment at which you approach the gates of heaven, because guess who's going to be there. Peter is in charge of heaven. There is no way. If there is a line 40 miles long that guy's gonna see his little sister, and he's gonna say, get your ass. He's gonna have a keg there. He's gonna this.

[Amanda Doyle]

If heaven is a club, your brother is the bouncer. You are so getting into that club.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, exactly. And if I were God, I would put Abby's brother in charge of, like, he is the most open. Like, everything was a party. Everybody was invited. Everybody's in his. Do you want to talk about this? I feel like now I'm talking too much. You go and you, you, you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. So when she reported this to me, that Jesus's bestie, his name was Peter, who eventually became St. Peter, and Jesus gave him essentially, like, the keys to heaven. And so Glennon just was like, so do you understand what this means? This means your brother is, like, the bouncer of heaven. And I was like, peter lets everybody in. She said, yes, Peter lets everybody in. When I tell you that in my body, it was like, a full body. Yes. And, like, I don't know if this is a part of grief or whatever, but there's just been so much confusion in my body. I'm a justice person. This doesn't make sense. All of it. And for the first time, I was like, oh, okay. This is something I can grasp. This is something I can hold. This is something I can carry with me that brings me not just like, an ease of pain, but, like, actually brings me joy and kind of a weird, like, the relief of death or hell. It just, like, kind of blew it all up for me. I was like, oh, wait. And I've. I know that this is something that has been programmed into me, but in my body, it was like the first time my body breathed or took a breath. And, yeah, it was so incredible. And so, of course, I call my mom. And trying to picture my mother in the light most favorable. Mom, I love you. And I know that you were also just scared for me, and I know that you were taught this, too, and I know that that's probably not your fault. But when I was younger, my mom said, I'm scared that you're going to go to hell. I think that that's a real possibility here. And so I called my mom and I said, did you say, I have something to report? Yes. I have to tell you something that Glennon just. Glennon told me. And so I tell her the whole story, and she said, oh, I don't believe in hell.

[Abby Wambach]

A little fucking late, Wombach.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I was like, wait, mom, what are you talking about? She said, oh, yeah. No, I kind of don't. I don't believe in hell. I don't believe in heaven. I kind of just think. I think we're all just like, I don't know, I just don't believe in it. And I just, I didn't have the heart because she's going through a really hard time with losing my brother too. I didn't have it in me to be like, what the fuck, mom? But I will say I think what this really has taught me more than anything. And we'll get to like the little gift that you gave me, Glennon. But what this has taught me is to re examine some of these conditioned beliefs, some of these like deep things that are in us and why they're in us and who taught them to us and go talk to those people if they actually believe that shit or not still.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly.

[Amanda Doyle]

Toad.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

It made me feel. At first, I was like, are you kidding me? Like, Abby's been suffering with this for decades and based on faulty information a bit. You know, I mean, it's still all still there, but it made me. We're gonna be talking to Sonya Renee Taylor soon about having these important conversations with our kids based on, like, sex and faith and money and all. And I feel like it has done a major disservice to all of us to consider them the talk. Because we as parents, we're just growing, too. And the snapshots of the conversations we have are just snapshots of who we are at that moment. And we are changing and evolving. And how many of us have given our kids the money talk, the sex talk, the faith talk, at a time where. From which we have changed and evolved and our children are holding on to that version of what we said one day when, you know, I think about sex and the ideas I used to have about sex when I was in the fundamentalist Christian church, which would have been when I was having some of those early conversations with my kids. Like, what? It has to be an evolving conversation that we reveal new thoughts and new doubts and new ideas forever so that we release them from a particular version of that thing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, but you're assuming that even that those talks were being honest about what our actual thoughts are at the moment. Like, I think most people aren't even being totally clear and honest about. This is a snapshot of me and what I think right now we're thinking, well, I mean, I'm gonna confuse this kid that we're choosing to raise us in the Catholic Church, but half of it, I think, is bullshit. But I really like this part, and this is why I'm taking them. Like, they can't possibly handle that information. They can't possibly handle, like, all of these doubts and the fact that we live in this paradox where we say we believe something, but we really actually, in our hearts, only believe half of it. And so we, like, fix our faces to try to look as believable as possible and say the thing we think will be simple and digestible and understandable to them. And then we walk away. And they're like, well, when they're older, they'll figure and navigate all the complexities, but they're navigating all the complexities now. They're wondering all those things now. So I think that having those evolving conversations are so huge, but also not putting too much pressure on yourself to have the answer for the talk or have it be simple at all.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Just to be like, I don't know. It's so weird. Church is so important to me. I love it. I love the sense I feel. I love the community. I love the way it helps the poor people. I hate the way there's only a dude at the top, and I hate the way it's whatever. And I don't believe this. And I do believe this. Like, why are we so scared of saying those things?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, we need to be more religiously, like, fluid. Yeah, I think too, like, one of the things that this period of my life has taught me is that I started therapy, like, two years ago to work on my shadow side. Thank you, Suzanne Stabile. And it led me down this, like, wild path that I feel like was preparing me for my brother's death in a way. And now my brother's been dead for over a year. And I can't believe how important it is to do therapy for me that to have done continuous therapy to get really focused and understand some of these childhood belief systems that were programmed into me that I believed that I've carried. I've been an adult for a long.

[Amanda Doyle]

Time, and you're not new here.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I've gone through all the things, atheism and agnosticism, like, I've done so much work, but that still, like, these beliefs that are very young, that come into your body very young, they're hard to disprove in yourself. And so, like, I don't know if you are wondering and if you have some overall, like, big fears. To me, what has helped is to understand when they got embedded in me. And so this leads to the whole point of this story. On Christmas Day. Glennon. My present from Glennon. Well, one of my presents from Glennon, she got me this St. Peter medallion, and she had it specialty made. And there's three black diamonds for my brother's kids and one sparkly, normal looking diamond for Peter. And it's St. Peter, and he's holding the keys. And so now I wear this almost every single day. And it's so beautiful. Can you tell me? I can't read. What's on the back? What does it say?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, Peter was the one who took care of everyone in Abby's family.

[Glennon Doyle]

Relax, I'll take care of him.

[Abby Wambach]

And also, he was the dude that just always kept a very centered nervous system. Like, whenever anyone else would get upset, he just handled everything. And so whenever anyone got in a jam or stuck, he would say, well, what Would he say, babe?

[Glennon Doyle]

He'd say, relax, I'll take care of it. Or what do you need? Yeah, yeah. He was like, the guy that, like, would pull over the side of the road and, like, fix your tire for you for a stranger, and would do all, like, the gardening and clean the pool and paint the pool for my parents at my parents house. And he was the guy that showed up and did whatever needed to be done.

[Abby Wambach]

So it's engraved on the back. It just says, relax, I'll handle it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Because I could Abby telling Peter how scared she was about heaven and him just saying, relax, I'll handle it. Like, leaning on the keg holding the keys to heaven.

[Glennon Doyle]

And what's also exciting about this is like, do we get to drink in heaven?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my God. I don't know.

[Amanda Doyle]

When you were saying about the poems, I was like, I've really been counting on the kingdom of God, the heaven. Like a vineyard. Like, it better be a vineyard. If I find out that's some poem, I'm gonna be pissed.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. So, long story short, this was the most. One of the most important gifts you could give me. Not just the medallion, but the story that can help me reshape my belief system. And one thing I also know about Peter, and obviously he would probably wish to be alive no matter what, but if he were gonna be dead, I do think he would like to have the power of. Of being the one that, like, gets to decide who's in and P. S. Everyone. He'll let everybody in.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, right?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, he won't.

[Amanda Doyle]

He's like, you're on the list, Abby.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Also, so is everyone else.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Like, he's just. He was just the best guy. And I don't know, I'm just so grateful, Glennon, that you waited for the right time. Because had you had told me that a year ago, before his services and a month after he died or two months, like, I might have not been in the place to really land it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it felt like any earlier than that, it felt like it would have been like I was just trying to distract you. Or like a patronizing thing. Like there had to be a little bit of space.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you remember the look on my face?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. You were freaking stunned. I was like, oh, I am nailing this report. This is the exact impact I needed this report to have. You looked like you were. I mean, look, it's one of the reasons I love you so much. To me, it felt like the most important moment in the world.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was.

[Abby Wambach]

And to you, I Could tell on your face that you thought it was one of the most important moments in the world. And I feel like if anyone had been watching us on the couch, they would have been like, they're batshit crazy.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. All to all to all. Yes to that. And I don't know, like, I think just, like, in terms of thinking about how much devastation and loss has happened already in 2025 with the fires in LA. And I don't know, this just brings it very focused to me that material things, quote, unquote, don't matter. But this makes me feel like. I think one of the things when you lose somebody is this contemplation with existence. Like, what is it? And so I've been, like, concerned with Peter's existence and if we will forget or if I will forget memories. And so this piece of jewelry that I will wear all the time is, like, proof not only of existence, but of love, of, like, how I felt about him and how he felt about his people. And that, like, one day I want to believe. I like to believe that maybe one day I will meet him again. And it was just really profound. And I'm so glad that you have the brain that you have.

[Abby Wambach]

We have a very exciting trip coming up.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, I can't wait.

[Abby Wambach]

Pod Squad. We are going to stay in Park City in a big house with all of the people who we worked with to produce Andrew Gibson's documentary, which is called Come See Me in the Good Light. Okay, so we've been working on this documentary all year, and it's going to Sundance. Yay. Yay. And we all wanted to stay together. And so Abby and I found this big, beautiful house that all the. I mean, I think it's pretty much all lesbians. Mostly all lesbians. It's gonna be a very gay, cozy house. We all want to have our own spaces, but we all want to feel connected.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

So we went with Airbnb. If you're traveling with family or friends this winter, like we are, consider an Airbnb. Those extra rooms and a full kitchen make all the difference. And if you're going solo, you can still find a place that feels like your own little sanct, no matter where you are. So next time you're planning a winter getaway, give Airbnb a try. Trust me, it's an experience you won't regret.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Isn't it cool the idea of like stories? To me it feels like, okay, so if I were in a movie where I was like suddenly animated and I was in one of those like superhero movies and I had to have like a superpower, I would be like this story person. It sounds so ridiculous.

[Amanda Doyle]

Captain super stories because like watch her plot twist.

[Abby Wambach]

I know it sounds crazy, but it is. It's like stories ruin lives. Stories divide civilization. Stories could blow up our planet. Stories.

[Glennon Doyle]

That is what turned us. That is what separated us as homo sapiens from our ancestors. Meaning making stories. Myths and meaning making.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, we can rail against bad stories. Like the amount of times that I could tell Abby. Oh come on. Here's all my proof that this is just poetry and imagery. Here's all of the studies, here's all of the papers I've about why we decided there was a hell and this is just a thing made up thing about people. None of that ever worked except being like, okay, I see your story, I see your health story and I'll raise you a better story. That shit worked. There's some kind of, Fine, I'll just tell more beautiful stories that can reduce fear and division in a way that I haven't seen. Battling against a particular story works.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, I think it's like two parts.

[Abby Wambach]

It's.

[Amanda Doyle]

We accept as truth and fact and as self evident the story that we have internalized. We don't see that as a story.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

We just see that as real and anything else as this pretend story trying to make us feel better about the reality that is already inside of us. And so when you can see another story and you think, well that's absurd. Peter at the bouncer of Heaven. That's crazy. And then you're like, is that any more crazy than burning fires of damnation?

[Abby Wambach]

Like that the maker of the universe, who loves us more than anything. Right, Right. Sends us to.

[Amanda Doyle]

And then you start to be like, whoa, whoa, wait. So I'm choosing to believe one story is real and one is not. That's a choice. And then, like, which one is serving me? Why it really is. Which one brings me joy? Which one feels like it could be more real? Then you see, oh, this is like a conscious thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

That is why. That is the exact reason why there is a power in the art. And honestly, I think it's an art of positivity. Not like the kind of. How would you say, this toxic positivity, but the kind of positivity where you're, like, trying to see the world in the light most favorable, and you're trying to see people in the light most favorable, and you're trying to curate. Because the way your perception of your reality is the story that you're telling yourself.

[Abby Wambach]

Yep. It is a curation.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so how are we out here trying to curate the most optimistic, positive, motivating stories so that, like, we can actually enjoy what's happening here? Because I've. I mean, Look, I lived 44 years with this belief that I potentially. I mean, I guess it. 30 years that I'm gonna go to hell. The first 14 went pre gay. I was totally on the. I was going to heaven, and then I'm going to hell. It's lunacy. So, like, what we talk to ourselves about and the stories we tell ourselves matter.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's not to be wildly full circle.

[Glennon Doyle]

But Octavia Butler, that's why she wrote science fiction.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's why she chose that is because it was so wildly imaginative. She said, at its best, science fiction stimulates imagination and creativity. It gets reader and writer off the beaten track, off the narrow, narrow footpath of what everyone is saying, doing, thinking, whoever everyone happens to be this year, we are so on the footpath that we can't even see it as a path. We're like, this is just what we do. And then when you bring stories into it, imagination into it, crazy ideas into it, it illuminates that you were walking this path to begin with, and you're like, do I want to be here?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Do I want to be here? So, yes, I am all in Captain super story over there. I think it's a great way of doing it. You could just like, touch everyone's Head. You think you're not good enough. Oh, that's a story.

[Abby Wambach]

I have a better story. Have you heard this story?

[Amanda Doyle]

You think you deserve a cheater? Oh, that's the story.

[Glennon Doyle]

But that's. See, that's why it's so important to get in touch with yourself, because so many of us. And by the way, like, this is me for much of my life where I'm just like unaware of what my story even is. I just think that I'm like living life, but I actually don't understand that, like the software and the coding that's been happening all along is in fact the story that's happening behind the scenes kind of at all times. And so dissecting that with internal family systems with my therapist, and it's like, oh, what's that part? And so being able to separate my own consciousness and my own self into all of these parts, figuring out how old these parts are, figuring out what's the story, what's that wound, what is it limiting me? And how can I alter and protect and let this very young part know that, hey, 44 year old old ass Abby has got herself now and knows.

[Abby Wambach]

More and is programmed better. And I do think it's cool to. You know how we've talked about when you're in trauma in any way, you can't see, you just can't see outside your little reality. And I think that we are all on some level in a bit of trauma which limits our vision, it limits our story. I've mentioned this before, but remember when I watched our neighbor trying to back out of the driveway and he spent 40 minutes going forward and back, forward and back.

[Amanda Doyle]

I don't think you've drawn this story.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't think I've heard this story.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, well, I'm so sure it wasn't me.

[Amanda Doyle]

That sounds like me.

[Abby Wambach]

No, well, I'm sure I was watching because that's all I do. But he just kept trying to narrowly, he needed to get out of his driveway. Okay. But the only thing he could think of doing was. All I can describe it was go a little bit to the left, a little bit to the right, a little bit to the left, a little bit to the right. But from my vision, I was watching from above because our houses are kind of like, if you think about like townhouses, they're kind of tall. Anyway, I could see right there's like.

[Amanda Doyle]

An alley in between. He's trying to get out of his. Yeah, okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. So I was watching it and from my thing, I could see all he had to do there was a trash can. Like, all he had to do was move the trash can, get out of his car, move the trash can, and he would have wide open spaces. But he was trying to navigate within this. Left, right inside the trash can. And I just kept looking at going, that is me. If I could just. I spend all day going left, right, left, right. But if I could just see a little bit higher, I could see there's infinite other possibilities. You know, there's always. When you think, is it A or is it B? Is it A or is it B? I don't know if it's A or B. It's never A or B. It's always F. Right, right, right. And when you can take a breath and get higher and see. So that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Or you can be like Lennon and just hit the trash can.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, that's true.

[Amanda Doyle]

But that's better than being like, well, I guess I live here now, in this driveway. Option D. No kidding. Better to move the trash can. Second best. Cream the trash can and get your.

[Abby Wambach]

Ass out of there. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Have you seen those videos with the little kids? They're like toddlers. And the little kids are, like, hanging on the bars. They have up. They're hanging on the bars and then they're just, like, bawling.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because they're like, I can't get down from here. I'll never get up. Like, the mom comes up and, like, straightens their legs and they're just standing. They can let go of the thing, but it doesn't occur to them. They're like, I'm going to die on this bar.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. And so that I. I want to challenge everyone in the POD squad today, whatever that little decision you're trying to make, like, is it A or is it B? Tell yourself you're going to give yourself 24 hours. You're not going to make that decision today. And instead you're going to dream up what is C, D and E and F. What if I could see this from such a wide perspective that I could actually see the trash can? What are the out of the box possibilities that aren't option A or B? Because, like, to come back to why I started talking about this, it's very interesting. When you're in, say, particular religious trauma, your car situation is you're going back between, like, am I going to go to heaven or am I going to go to hell?

[Glennon Doyle]

Am I?

[Abby Wambach]

Is it heaven or is it hell? Is it heaven or is it hell? And, like, anybody looking at you from above is Thinking that is not the question. The question is why are you an extremely smart person who thinks that there's a lake full of fire or a bunch of angels and those are your options? There is a bigger question, is what I'm saying. There's a bigger question, like, perfect, we examine that and. And if. If you land which P s. I am not judging because I am so weird. And there's a part of me that thinks maybe all this shit is realish.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, I give it like a 30, 70.

[Abby Wambach]

If we're gonna believe in the version that has angels and laps of fire and shit, let's make up our own story about it. Okay? Let's just continue the story and make it wider and more beautiful.

[Glennon Doyle]

And the story we're going on from here is Peter. My brother is at the gates. He will meet you there with your beverage of choice. If it's weed, whatever. He's letting you into a great party.

[Amanda Doyle]

Relax.

[Abby Wambach]

He's got it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Relax.

[Abby Wambach]

He'll take care of it. We love you, POD Squad, so much. Thank you for listening and we'll see you back here next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30, 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.