← We Can Do Hard Things
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- [00:00]
Glennon Doyle
Finding a great mentor who can really help me level up isn't easy, but my dream mentor, Amy Poehler. So when I heard she had a class on Masterclass, I got so excited. Even though I don't really think I'm ever going to become an actor. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 world renowned experts for just $10 a month. Billed annually, membership gives you unlimited access to every instructor whether you're watching on your phone, computer, smartphone, or even listening in audio mode. One class that has totally changed the game for me was James Clear Session on Building New Habits. I've always struggled with consistency, but his practical, easy to apply strategies helped me finally establish a daily routine that actually sticks. I've been using it every day and it's been a game changer. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com hard things that's 15% off@masterclass.com hardthings masterclass.com hardthings no bull is a footwear brand for training and for daily life. Built to support you in your pursuit of physical, mental and emotional strength. Noble is known for their best in class award winning footwear. It's the shoe for everyday life. If you change up your workouts but want one pair of a stable and reliable shoe, you can trust the Noble drive to get the job done. No matter what your choice of movement is or how you choose to take care of yourself physically, mentally and emotionally, you can trust no Bull has the footwear options you need. Exclusively for We Can Do Hard Things listeners, no bull is offering 30% off your order. Visit www.noproject.com hard things for 30% off your entire order. That's www.n o b u l l p r o j e c t.com hardthings for 30% off.
- [02:09]
Abby Wambach
It is getting very close to book release time. Our new book, We Can Do Hard Things Answers to Life's 20 Questions comes out on May 6th. You can pre order We Can Do Hard Things anywhere you get your books or you can go to treatmedia.com you can also join us for a virtual event that we're doing on publication day. You guys were doing a live virtual event because since the tour sold out so quickly, lots of you were sad to not be a part of it and we can't stand your sadness. So we're hosting a virtual event to support those who could not get tickets and to support our beloved local independent bookstores. All the proceeds from this virtual event are going to these local bookstores. They show up for us. We're showing up for them. May 6th. If you pre ordered the book from an independent bookstore, you don't have to buy it again. To come to the event, please register for the event by uploading your indie order@treatmedia.com and just click the option that says, I've already pre ordered from another indie. Okay, we'll see you there.
- [03:24]
Amanda Doyle
This is so exciting, Terri. Thank you for being here, Amanda. I'm Amanda.
- [03:30]
Terri Cole
I know who you are because you mentioned me and then like 40 people texted me immediately. People were like, holy shit. So anyway, thanks.
- [03:38]
Amanda Doyle
Of course. This is Glenn and Abby.
- [03:40]
Glennon Doyle
Hi.
- [03:40]
Abby Wambach
Terry.
- [03:41]
Terri Cole
Hi, Grace.
- [03:41]
Amanda Doyle
Hi. In fact, when we were doing this and setting up, I was like, well, let's be sure to reference our other podcast we did with Terri. And we had all thought we had done another podcast with you because we had talked about you before.
- [03:54]
Glennon Doyle
Lo and behold, it's the first time.
- [03:56]
Abby Wambach
So pleasure.
- [03:57]
Terri Cole
Thank you. Pleasure to meet you.
- [03:59]
Amanda Doyle
Hello, Pod Squad. Welcome to we can do hard things. You have heard us talk about codependency on this pod before. Episode 142, Codependence how to stop controlling Others with Melody Beatty. And then More recently in October 24, we did when you're tired of holding up the whole sky. If you are like me, then when you heard us talk about codependency and being codependent, you thought I am whatever the opposite of that is, because I am not dependent on anyone. Everyone is dependent on me. If you're doing all of the things for all of the people, if you're a fixer, a handler, if it gets done because you do it, if your first thought is, it has to be me, and your first response is, I've got it. And if you are also deeply in your most honest places to your bones, exhausted, depleted, and a tiny bit resentful about the life force you are trading to make everything around you go, well, then I would really, really love if you would listen to these two shows that we are doing with Terri Cole because they are going to change your life. Terri has discovered a new kind of codependent, coining the term high functioning codependent. Terri Cole is a licensed psychotherapist and global relationship and empowerment expert, and the author of Boundary Boss and most recently, Too Much. She has a gift for making complex psychological concepts accessible and actionable so that her clients, including parents, celebrities, and Fortune 500 CEOs, achieve sustainable change. You can find Terri through her blog courses, her podcast, the Terri Cole show. And@terricole.com Terri Cole, thank you for being with us today.
- [05:55]
Terri Cole
Oh, my God, thank you for having me. I'm so excited.
- [05:59]
Amanda Doyle
Okay, Terri, we are going to jump in because I feel like, I just feel very passionately about everyone knowing about what you are here to teach. You say that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like. Codependency. Can you tell us what high functioning codependency looks like?
- [06:19]
Terri Cole
Well, what it is, is when you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the situations, the relationships, circumstances, finances. I mean, we could keep going of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace. So we have to really look at that distinction because we're all mothers and lovers and sisters and daughters. And obviously we want the people in our life that we love to be happy. We want all people to be happy. But when you are a high functioning codependent, it's more than that. So now it moves over into actually feeling responsible for those things and it's not good for you or your relationships. As we all know.
- [06:59]
Amanda Doyle
You tell a lot of stories in your book that I just had to laugh out loud because they felt so like they could have been inside of my own head. I think we need to lead up to your varsity story of your sister because that is like. Can you tell us about the salon? What happens when you're sitting in the salon?
- [07:19]
Terri Cole
Yes.
- [07:19]
Amanda Doyle
See if you can pick up on some elements of yourself.
- [07:22]
Terri Cole
All right, so this is a story about what I deemed auto accommodating. So I was in a busy my hair salon in New York City and it was Saturday. I don't usually go because it's so slammed, but I'm laying in the bowl, right? And I've got something on my hair. I'm going to be there for 30 minutes and it's busy. And now there's somebody online and now there's another person online. And the more people who are waiting in their little robes for a sink, the more stressed out I became. I was like, I don't need a sink. I could be sitting anywhere. I should tell them that, you know, So I can't. I finally get to the tipping point where I can't not say anything. So I raised my hand and I called the girl over and I was like, you know, I could move. Like, I don't need to take up a sink. And she's like, yeah, lady, we do this every Saturday. Like, we're okay, we got it. You're good. And what I realized in that moment. So I was like, what else could you have been doing, Terr? Instead of sweating some shit that is nowhere near your side of the street. This is someone else's side of the street running the sink flow at the salon. Not you, but the cost. Like, why do we even care, right? That's one example of what I could have been doing. I could have called my mother. I could have been meditating. I could have been listening to your podcast. I could have been doing a million other more valuable things than trying to control something that was not mine to control. And after that, I actually did a quick video on that that went viral and people were like, oh my God, me everywhere. Like so many people felt identified with that experience. So I called that auto accommodating.
- [09:02]
Amanda Doyle
And you're telling yourself in that situation, I am just being considerate of others. But what is actually happening? What is what you cannot tolerate in that situation that makes you automatically accommodate when it's none of your business.
- [09:16]
Terri Cole
I'm worried that the people online are frustrated and mad at me because I'm hogging up a sink that I don't need. They can obviously see no one's doing anything to my hair. So what's actually happening is I don't want the people online to feel frustrated at me, get mad at the nice assistant. I don't want anyone to be in trouble. I don't want there to be a conflict. I don't want any prow. I just want peace. Can we just have peace? And I think that if I make a move to move myself, right? Because I'm the all knowing and the all, I am the solution to all problems. FYI, when I'm an hfc, right, that I'm just going to fix it by telling the girl I'm going to move and it's all going to be great. Now obviously that's not great because what really is happening in there, I'm making assumptions about what needs to happen with the sink flow that's done in my business. I'm calling over an assistant who's busy doing something else to tell her that I think I have a better plan for the sync flow than what they got going on. I think you're asleep, little girl at the wheel. So I'm just. You're not doing the right thing. So I'm going to step in and get it figured out for you. That's what it could look like. I don't know. She didn't seem like she cared at all. She was just like, yeah, we're good. Bye. So she didn't do anything. But how much time do we spend in our lives trying to control things that are legitimately not on our side of the street? And when people say, maybe you're just nice, Terri, or maybe I'm just being nice, like, all HFCs want to defend their behavior so badly, they can't wait to tell me that they're just good people. Hello. And I say, that may be true. I do believe you are good people. And if you can't not do it, that is a compulsion. That's not you being nice.
- [11:10]
Glennon Doyle
Some things, like, in my body, I can put myself in this circumstance a lot where I'm the nice one. I'm accommodating. I can read a room. And if something is going wrong, I'm like, this is for sure me. And something that I'm curious about is the deeper why, right? There's this belief that we are the one that can control the need to control. And to me, I'm just, like, having a full body. Like, oh, shit. Is this just all a ploy to avoid myself?
- [11:46]
Abby Wambach
Or is it worthiness? Is it worthiness because you're saying, like, are you not worthy of the space to take up the sink? Are you not worthy of the space to take up your own life? So you're fixing other people. No.
- [11:56]
Terri Cole
Here's the thing. Everyone's gonna have a different driver, right? Because we all had different familial experiences, right? I hate to say we gotta go back to the scene of the.
- [12:06]
Abby Wambach
Oh, God, Terry. Again, we do. My poor parents.
- [12:13]
Terri Cole
My mother just stopped listening. But here's the reality is that's where these seeds are planted. So to get back to Abby's question, like, your question was, why? Why do I feel that way? Why do I feel compelled? Well, let's look at family systems. Let's look at your downloaded hfc, or relational blueprint. This is all unconscious stuff. It's a paradigm already in your unconscious mind of what is the right thing to do. How are relationships? How am I supposed to behave? How do I behave in public? How do I behave with other people? Then mix in. You're an empath, right? So if you're feeling all the feelings, right, HFCs, most of us, if you're active now, I'm in recovery, but I'm still a massive empath. So I still know the temperature of every person in every frigging room. And I still know what conversations are going awry where I still want to dive in. And I Just don't. It's just like drinking, right? I stopped drinking when I was 21. Right. It's not like I don't ever want to drink. I just don't. So when you're in recovery, you just slowly but surely stop those over functioning, and they're really controlling. Because when you think about any kind of codependency, right, Whether it's Melody Beatty, codependent, no more codependency, whether it's high functioning codependency, at the core of these behaviors is an overt or covert attempt or desire to control other people's outcomes. So anytime, like a little trick that you guys can use is anytime you think in your mind, oh, I don't want them to think, or you say, oh, I don't want them to feel immediately, just back your hiney up to your own side of the street. Because what they think and how they feel is their side of the street. And your side of the street is what you think and how you feel.
- [14:04]
Amanda Doyle
You know, it's so interesting about the drinking analogy because as you were saying that I was like, that feels similar to me. I don't drink anymore, but I have very good reasons to drink and very good reasons to still drink. I just choose not to. But when people, whether it's the salon or whether I get on an airplane and I see that, you know, those two people want to sit together and they can't because the people won't move. And I cannot physically not absorb their anxiety and their discomfort. And so me doing the thing where I jump up and say, you can have my seat, is to get rid of the anxiety. That is their anxiety. But is my anxiety because I can't keep it on them. I have to take it.
- [14:55]
Terri Cole
Yes. Okay, here's the thing. You don't have to. So that's what recovery is about. So we're gonna talk about how not to. But think about. Gabor mate talks about why we wanna change people's feelings. It's like you're having a stressful feeling, you're in pain, you have a problem. That problem is causing me pain. I want my pain to end.
- [15:17]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [15:17]
Amanda Doyle
Yes.
- [15:18]
Terri Cole
Right. So that's kind of what you're saying. But here's the thing. When you're an empath, and it's so interesting, Amanda, because you know it. I don't need to tell you, you're an hfc. Like, I just. You know it from everything, how highly functional you are, how highly capable you are, how you don't love vulnerability. All of those Things come into this. So one of the things that was really helpful and can be if you guys are identifying anybody, listening, identifying with this, is to really understand your energy and to do energy work. Now, I say that even though before I became a psychotherapist, many years ago, I used to be a talent agent. Like, if you had said energy work to me 20 years ago, I'd be like, okay, that's not even a thing. That's not even real. And then it is a thing. And it is real, by the way. And so zipping up your energy, learning to protect your energy, meditating, and having an actual dedicated practice, like, the top thing that can help an HFC in my experience, is a dedicated meditation practice. Because what happens is at least what happened for me. And I've taught. I'm a meditation teacher. I've taught thousands of people to meditate, is it buys you about 2 seconds of response time. Mm. And that's all you need to not get up and give your seat.
- [16:43]
Abby Wambach
That tracks.
- [16:44]
Terri Cole
Two seconds to go. Oh, this is uncomfortable. Okay. I'm gonna take a deep breath. That's not my side of the street. It's okay. Does that make sense?
- [16:52]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [16:53]
Terri Cole
Yes.
- [16:53]
Glennon Doyle
Can you explain some other ideas of energy work?
- [16:57]
Terri Cole
Sure.
- [16:57]
Glennon Doyle
Because there's lots of different modalities. What are some of them that you would recommend?
- [17:02]
Abby Wambach
And what do you mean by energy?
- [17:03]
Terri Cole
Yeah, I mean your energy. Right. So go into a room, and if someone's in a really bad mood, does that affect you?
- [17:12]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [17:13]
Terri Cole
Correct. They could say no words, and you're like, take your poisonous energy away from me, please. So we know that energy is a real thing. How we can protect and take care of our energy, especially when you're an empath, first of all, is learning how to clear or clean your energy. That's through. There's different baths that you can take by putting in, you know, put in witch hazel, and I put in lemons, and I put in essential oils to clear. And as a therapist, there was all these things I used to do, because being an empath and a therapist is a lot. Because you're trying not to walk around with 45 charts on your back every day, is that there would be. I would put water in my office. I'd have water, and I'd have red clear stones, and that water would supposedly. And listen. Can I factually tell you what happens? I do not know. Did it make me feel better to think I was doing something to protect my energy? It did. So I would clear that water every day. But there's Also energy work that you can do, which is super simple. One of my best friends actually is a very skilled energy practitioner. Her name is Lara Riggio. Anyway, she taught me years ago, I'm talking 25 years ago, how to zip up my energy. So there's three things that I think for HFC is that are probably the most important energy things. Zipping up where you just. It's so simple. You take your hand, put it on your pubic bone, zip up your center meridian, right? You're just tracing the center meridian. And then when you get to your mouth, you're going to lock it in like that. And we're going to just going to do that three times. Super simple. And now you are containing your own energy. And this isn't to ward off people. It's just the people who think that you have what they need, when you don't, it makes them not think you have what they need. So there's that weaving your aura again. If you had been Talked about auras 15 years ago, I would have also thought that was stupid. But I don't because of what I've been doing for so long. So anyway, it's super easy. You're literally just crossing over. It's almost like doing figure eights physically in front of your body, all the way down to your toes, all the way up, all the way sort of behind your back. So what this does is this doesn't let a lot of sort of negative energy come in to where you are. And the third thing is you can hold points. When you're an HFC or anyone who's highly empathic, we can be overwhelmed with energy. Just too many people's energy, too much energy. And there's this position where you can just sit on your couch and do it where one hand is and the back of your head and the other hand is right here, like where your hairline. Just breathe. And I don't know what this signals. Lara could tell you better than me because I'm not an expert on this. I'm just telling you guys what I actually do to protect my energy. And this is stuff that you can find out about. And it can be super simple. What I love about my friend's work is that it's everything is like a two minute video.
- [20:14]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, that's nice.
- [20:15]
Terri Cole
Because here's the thing, no offense, if I can't do it in like three minutes, I'm not that interested in doing it, you know?
- [20:19]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, so true.
- [20:30]
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- [21:33]
Glennon Doyle
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- [22:39]
E
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- [23:35]
Amanda Doyle
So we have the salon, we have the plane. Can you tell us. I'd love for you to tell us about your sister. And then I want to get into some of, like, the signs and life impacts of how all of this shows up. But tell us how you discovered yourself in this role through your sister.
- [23:54]
Terri Cole
Yes, this is really how I discovered and coined the phrase, basically through this experience. So I have three older sisters. I'm the youngest. I know two of you are youngest people, but did you know? I wanted to ask you, Abby, you could be the youngest chronologically, but you could also be the designated oldest child.
- [24:10]
Glennon Doyle
That's correct.
- [24:11]
Terri Cole
As I was in my family system.
- [24:12]
Glennon Doyle
That is correct.
- [24:13]
Abby Wambach
My sister's the designated older child. That's such a helpful term because we're never figuring that out. And everyone always says, you're the younger one, Right? To me, I'm like, is that just because I'm shorter? And they're like, no, that's not why.
- [24:28]
Terri Cole
It's helpful to know that, though, because you're like, why am I feeling so responsible for all the people and all the things? But it is also something. Well, we can talk about this another time. But you can also sort of correct that because it makes the birth order out of whack. Anyway, moving into. I'm the youngest of four sisters. One of my sisters had a history of, like, bad relationships, addiction. I mean, we all had a history of addiction. But hers was not getting into recovery yet. So she was an active alcoholic. She was in an abusive relationship with a guy who was actually doing crack. And they were living in the woods with no running water and no electricity. So, like, there's no amplification required.
- [25:05]
Abby Wambach
Like, right.
- [25:06]
Terri Cole
That's an HFC's nightmare. Where now my own life at that time was very busy. I had just married my husband. I had became a bonus mom to three acting out teenagers. I quit my job as a talent agent, became a therapist. Like, all these things are happening, but that shit is all on the back burner. Because the only thing I can think about is getting Jenna out of her situation. So I was talking to my therapist, and this is probably. I don't Know, however many millions weeks in a row it felt like. And I just said, bev, what am I gonna do? I've done everything. And trust me, I had done everything to get her out. And she was like, terri, let me ask you something. What makes you think, you know, what your sister needs to learn and how she needs to learn it in this lifetime? I just thought, well, I mean, at the time, I said, well, I think we can both agree she doesn't need to do it with this piece of shit in the middle of the woods without running water. Like, you know, I got extremely.
- [26:02]
Amanda Doyle
Feels reasonable to me.
- [26:03]
Abby Wambach
That's my girl, Terry.
- [26:06]
Terri Cole
And she was like, you know what, Tara? I can agree, because I'm not God. She's like, I don't know what your sister needs to learn and how she needs to learn it, but do you know what's happening for you? And I was like, clearly, no idea, so help me out. And she said, you've worked really hard to create a pretty harmonious life. And she said, and your sister's dumpster fire is really messing with your peace, so you really want to fix it? Fix her so that your pain can end and you could get on with, like, your happy life.
- [26:39]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [26:42]
Terri Cole
She is not lying. So what does that look like? Cause I didn't know you guys. I had no idea that I had any other choice than to just be balls to the wall, loyal to the end. Try until I'm dead. Like, never, ever, ever give up. It really felt like it was my job to do it. My family expected me to do it. Like, there was a lot of pressure to get this thing right, you know? And she said, you need boundaries. And that was the beginning. That was literally my introduction to boundaries, where I was like, wait, what? What is that? And she's like, you don't need to talk to your sister about this guy. Because my sister would, you know, we would talk, and she would be like, I always feel so much better after talking to you. And I'd be like, I always feel like a toxic waste site after talking to you. Like, I never feel better. I only feel worse and more worried than I was before. And so the boundaries came where I just said, hey, I love you, and I can't keep talking to you about this guy who treats you so badly. And when and if you ever want to get out, I'll always be your person. I'll always be here. And less than nine months later, she called, and she was like, hey, are you still my person? I was like, putting on my sneakers Picked her up, she got into school, she got into recovery. My husband and I helped her in an appropriate way. Right. Not doing it for her in the way that we could. And here's the important part of the story and the painful part too, is that I could have forced it and sort of saved her. Done an intervention, whatever. There's a million things that you could do. But in the end, at the end of that story, my sister's baby sister is the hero of her story. In this case, my sister is the hero of her own effin story, which she should be. She gets all of the self esteem that comes from doing it. And my anxiety. I learned from my therapist that I could not center the solution on myself, which is what I was doing. And that was painful. Right. I literally thought it was all love. I thought, I'm like Mother Teresa. I'm just a lover like that. I just care about people. That's what that's about. And then you gotta be like. And want to control the crap out of them too. Oh, well, that's slightly different. Not as good as the other thing, but more true. And that was the beginning of me understanding that a there is such thing as high functioning codependency. That was sort of the beginning of being like, what was I doing? What was happening for me? I was obsessed with. With liberating my sister from this situation. And then I got permission from my therapist that I could stop, that I could let the chips fall where they may, because she told me and she said the thing that convinced me to cease and desist on the never ending trying to get her out was my therapist saying, tara, I'm not saying you shouldn't save your sister. I'm saying you can't. It's like actually not even in the realm of possibility. And I was like, well, then let's not do it. That makes sense to me.
- [29:56]
Amanda Doyle
Was there a grieving process with that? Because I think we hold onto the control so much because it's awful, but it's only less awful than grieving that we can never save our people.
- [30:08]
Terri Cole
Yep. But the thing though, I gotta say, Amanda, it became so clear to me that it was an illusion. The illusion of power, the illusion of being in control of my sister's outcome. And so the grief was the guilt. There was first a massive amount of guilt where I was like, how could you be like, out here with Vic and the boys and having a normal day? Like, you don't even know what's happening with. You know, I would make myself feel terrible, but Then I would talk to my therapist about it, or I would journal about it and be like, what makes you think? You know, just keep holding onto that. So I think the guilt was there, but there's something on the other side when you get into acceptance and surrender to the truth. Right? The truth of what is, we don't want to stay on our own side of the street, Amanda. Because then we gotta deal with ourselves. Right? It was so much easier for me to be obsessing about my sister than it was for me to be a new bonus mom to these kids to figuring that out. I mean, I was figuring it out, but my anxiety about me messing that up, like, how am I gonna do this wrong? You know? And I'm sure I did and didn't. Like, I mean, they're great now. They're grown. I have seven grandbabes. But at the time, you know, it was like, no terrible twos, only terrifying teens. We just skipped the whole beginning part. Yeah, I know. Abby. I see you, Abby.
- [31:34]
Abby Wambach
It's really.
- [31:34]
Terri Cole
Something is scary.
- [31:38]
Abby Wambach
Can I ask a quick question? I feel like this is a codependent question, but can you talk to us about how people in a family or friendship or sisterhood or whatever feel in reaction to the HFC? Because I feel like people who are HFCs feel like I am just loving everyone so well, and everyone loves me, for sure. I want you to give us access to the brains of everybody else.
- [32:13]
Terri Cole
Okay. This is what I think we should do. And you guys tell me if you agree. I think we should talk about traits and behaviors so that people listening can go, this is me.
- [32:23]
Abby Wambach
Great.
- [32:23]
Terri Cole
Because I feel like it can still be amorphous sometimes. It's sort of like, is it. Am I caring? Am I codependent? Right. This is always the question. Caring or codependent. So what are the predominant traits? Feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems. We've established that. Going above and beyond. Right. A lot of times, even when it's not asked for, but we kind of think that thing should happen. They didn't ask for the new thing, but we got it anyway because their spinner was old and gross. So. It's a gift. I sent you a gift. All right. Always ready to jump into damage control mode. Right? So the great things about HFCs. And don't worry, when you get into recovery, the great things just get amplified and the shitty things get less. So don't worry, you're not going to suddenly change. You're still going to be an amazing problem solver. Because this is part of our makeup. Right? We are great in a crisis and we're ready to help. You are hyper independent. Anybody feeling hyper independent don't really like to depend on other people. I know. Amanda for sure. You for sure?
- [33:26]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [33:26]
Amanda Doyle
We're gonna need to circle back to that one because I have like 14 questions.
- [33:29]
Abby Wambach
I feel like I'm a low functioning codependent and sister's a high functioning codependent is not low.
- [33:36]
Amanda Doyle
It's just different.
- [33:36]
Abby Wambach
Medium.
- [33:37]
Terri Cole
It is different.
- [33:38]
Abby Wambach
Okay.
- [33:39]
Terri Cole
But the desire to control Glennon is still there.
- [33:41]
Glennon Doyle
She's. I think that she's a hiding. Like she's a hidden high function.
- [33:45]
Abby Wambach
Just in my brain. It's all just in my brain.
- [33:47]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [33:48]
Abby Wambach
I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt. Please, go ahead.
- [33:49]
Terri Cole
What else are the behaviors? We're giving unsolicited advice. We are the auto advice givers of the world. We have such good advice, we can't stop telling you what it is, even when you don't ask. Being overly self sacrificing. So let's just say you were in a situation. Two people were going to work. Your partner walks out the door and there's a flat tire in their car. Immediately you just yell out the door, take the other one. I got it. I'll Uber. No worries. Like, we're just problem solving. And there's a certain amount of self abandonment. Like we are as HFCs, always willing to take one for the team. Whatever the team needs. I got it. We ought to accommodate, which we already talked about. Another behavior is anticipatory planning. So we know we're gonna be with that difficult person. So we think, what am I gonna do? All right. Make sure I have the booze they like to drink. Make sure Uncle Bobby doesn't sit next to Uncle Jimmy. Cause they hate each other. So I will put them separate sides of the table. Right. Instead of having a conversation with the uncles that's like, if you two can't be adults, you're not invited to Christmas. Get out. Instead, we just twist ourselves up and light ourselves on fire to make sure everyone else is comfortable and warm, no matter what's happening for us.
- [35:04]
Amanda Doyle
We might plan exactly what we might say in 14 different scenarios. We might.
- [35:09]
Terri Cole
We might.
- [35:10]
Amanda Doyle
When we're in the shower. Okay. Terri, it's our business.
- [35:13]
Terri Cole
That's right.
- [35:14]
Glennon Doyle
It's our personality.
- [35:14]
Terri Cole
What's wrong with being prepared, Terri. For anything? We want to be prepared for anything.
- [35:20]
Amanda Doyle
But we also feel responsible, Terri, for the flow of every conversation that's happening around us. And make sure that certain people are getting to speak and make sure when things get dull, that we spice things up. Might we do that?
- [35:32]
Terri Cole
Yes. Actually, a friend of mine, many years ago, was away with my childhood girlfriends, and one of them is an interrupter, which I can't stand. And she wasn't even interrupting me. She was interrupting someone else. And I was like, okay, can she. Whatever. And then she's like, you know, why are you the conversation police? And I was like, why can't you ever read the room? Why don't you let someone finish what they're saying? How about that? Anyway, so, yeah, there are those things, Amanda, that we might do and we might think is righteous because we might think it is wrong for that person to interrupt that person. But you know who. That's between that person and that person. And my friend had a good point to make.
- [36:12]
Abby Wambach
Oh, God, that's a hard one for me.
- [36:15]
Amanda Doyle
Glennon is now taking off her flannel shirt for everyone at home she's beating.
- [36:19]
Abby Wambach
To sweat because that's a hard one for me. Abby knows conversations where people are interrupting other people and other people don't get to talk is extremely upsetting.
- [36:31]
Terri Cole
Yep.
- [36:32]
Abby Wambach
Maybe not for everyone.
- [36:33]
Terri Cole
It is. And those people who are not getting to talk have to be the people who care enough about talking to assert themselves. So they talk.
- [36:41]
Abby Wambach
I see.
- [36:42]
Amanda Doyle
They need to be their own hero.
- [36:43]
Abby Wambach
They need to be their own hero.
- [36:44]
Terri Cole
They do. They need to be their own conversation police or just assert themselves. All right, back to the traits. Moving on to. One of the last ones is over functioning and under functioning. So this one is very important for us to understand the dynamic of. I say this kidding, but it's not a joke. In my 20s, I could take a perfectly functional boyfriend and turn him into an under functioner in two weeks or less. You get it. You're just like, I got it. It's good. I got it. Don't worry.
- [37:14]
Amanda Doyle
I got it.
- [37:15]
Terri Cole
You know, there's a point when people just stop asking because it's really not satisfying when you're with someone who never lets you do anything or doesn't think you're gonna do it right. And listen, I'll agree with you, Amanda. I know what you're thinking, and it's true. They're not gonna do it right. That is accurate.
- [37:32]
Abby Wambach
That is accurate.
- [37:33]
Terri Cole
And life isn't perfect. Life is messy as hell. We know this. So part of it. I remember I was living with a boyfriend many years ago, and I called my mother, and I was like, he doesn't know how to vacuum or brown garlic. He you can't stop burning the garlic. It's so annoying. She was like, first of all, your father never touched a pan or a vacuum, so let's just start there. Secondly, Ter, let him can vacuum. She's like, listen to me, if you need everything done your way, you will end up like me, doing it all and doing it all alone. I was like, damn. She's like, just let him vacuum and let it be quote unquote wrong. I was like, okay, yeah.
- [38:16]
Amanda Doyle
That part of your book where you said that the question is not. Or maybe this is my notes from your book. I don't know. You tell me. But the question is not. You don't ask yourself who can do it better and more efficiently. Because if that's the question, then the HFC doing things will always be the answer.
- [38:36]
Terri Cole
Correct?
- [38:37]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [38:38]
Amanda Doyle
So what question do you ask yourself instead of could this be done better by me? What do you ask yourself instead?
- [38:47]
Terri Cole
Well, part of. With all the over functioning and overdoing the two things. These are two questions that you just put in your back pocket before you do anything. Do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful?
- [39:00]
Abby Wambach
Ooh, the without that. The second part's important.
- [39:04]
Terri Cole
Do I even fucking want to do it?
- [39:07]
Abby Wambach
Oh yeah.
- [39:09]
Terri Cole
Because as HFCs, if you want me to do it, you, Amanda, want me to do it. I want to do it because you want me to do it, right? It's very rare until we're bitter. Because here's the thing. This behavior is a one way ticket to bitter land. Literally, no other stops. It is impossible that you will not become a martyr if you continue with this behavior. And trust me when I tell you that There is no 68 year old martyr out there. We all know one. When they were 20, they weren't like, oh my God, I cannot wait to become a martyr when I grow up. Nobody is planning on becoming a bitter martyr. They're not. But what happens is these repeated self abandonment. What we're driven by is not pure love, it's control. It's something else. So people can't even be sufficiently grateful, right? Because our motive is messed up, Right? If they're grateful, they're not grateful enough. Because we sacrifice so much for whatever it is.
- [40:19]
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Terri Cole
Simple.
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- [43:21]
Terri Cole
Let'S go back to what Glennon had a question about with the cost to others or whatever you want to say.
- [43:26]
Amanda Doyle
Amanda no please. The effect on the Non HFC would love to hear that.
- [43:32]
Terri Cole
First and foremost is their autonomy. Right? People have the right to succeed and fail to thrive and flail. Flailing is people's rights. You know what? When we're in hfc, we do not want any flailing in our vicinity. We do not like it at all.
- [43:52]
Amanda Doyle
This is a no flailing zone.
- [43:54]
Terri Cole
People take that flailing outside. I do not want it. We can't tolerate it. Is exactly what Abby, what you were saying before, this feeling. Right? And what you were saying on the plane, this feeling that then drives the behavior. So moving on to the cost, and then we're gonna talk about what you can do. So we're not accepting people where they are, right? Because we want them to be somewhere better. If they're in pain, if they're suffering, if they're in a bad relationship, we can't just accept them. And let's talk about what is the real flexibility when it comes to love. It's not fixing people. I can tell you that. It's not people as projects. I can tell you that. The real flex is someone having a dark night of the soul and you being like, I'm willing to be in the foxhole with you during your dark night of the soul. I will be here and not fix you. I will be here and ask, how can I best support you right now? I'll just lay with you. We can watch a movie. We can do nothing. But I won't shy away from your pain. And when we immediately want to fix someone and we immediately have a great idea for someone, what we're really doing is we are centering ourselves in that person's problem. We're like, I have the answer for you. Sometimes we need to flail. And loving the people in our lives means we will tolerate how uncomfortable that makes us feel to actually be present for those we love. Anyway, I digress. I got it on a soapbox. Moving back to you.
- [45:31]
Abby Wambach
Do not digress. You are so good at this.
- [45:37]
Amanda Doyle
Wow.
- [45:39]
Glennon Doyle
Okay.
- [45:40]
Terri Cole
Why? Thanks. All right, people is projects we don't love, right? Nobody? Have you ever been on the receiving end of it? I'm sure we all have. How does it feel? Because HFCs travel in packs. So whenever my HFC friends can't wait to auto advice, give me, I want to punch someone in the face. I literally. Now we have all the language. When you get into recovery, you go, oh, hey, I'm not looking for input, but I would love if you could just compassionately listen. That would be amazing. Because what is holding space really it means I won't make a stupid suggestion you're not gonna take to make myself feel better at your expense. I mean, that's a very ungenerous way of looking at it. Cause obviously that's not.
- [46:22]
Amanda Doyle
Can you say that one more time though? I do feel like it's worth repeating what y'all is holding space. We might not know what it is, but we can tell you what it isn't. Terri, go ahead.
- [46:32]
Terri Cole
I don't even know what I said. I really can't.
- [46:34]
Amanda Doyle
Okay, I think you said it is not offering space some dumbass advice that you're not even gonna take in order to myself to make myself feel better at your expense.
- [46:45]
Terri Cole
Yes, that's exactly what I said. Thank you, Amanda.
- [46:48]
Abby Wambach
Because you do kind of end up feeling. I feel so annoyed when I share something really vulnerable and somebody just offers a quick fix back. As if the problem is that I wasn't smart enough to figure that out. When really the problem is just that I'm a human being who's having feelings.
- [47:06]
Terri Cole
Uh huh.
- [47:07]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [47:09]
Terri Cole
Briefly though, let's talk about the most important thing we can change. If we're auto advice givers, and this is. It's a simple change. Maybe not easy. Before you tell anybody, even your kids what you think, you're going to ask them what they think they should do. And then you're gonna stop talking. So you have a little kid who comes home from school. I had a fight with Bobby today at school. You're not gonna be like, in this family, we don't fight or whatever it is you could say as a parent, you're gonna go to the principal, you're not saying anything, you're gonna say, okay, tell me what happened. Then they tell you what happened. Okay, I wanna know. What do you think? How should you handle this situation? And just stop. Because listen, parenting is what teaching kids deductive reasoning, critical thinking, consequences for actions, right? How are kids gonna develop these skills if we're endlessly centering ourselves as like, I know the answer. Well, no shit, you're a grownup. How about, I'm seven. Maybe, maybe I could learn those skills. You're not winning, mom. You know what I mean? What is winning is having your kids say, you know what? I think I should go in tomorrow and punch Bobby in the face. Now you go. Now this tells you you're learning so much about your child. You're not going to condone or encourage them to do that. Well, why do you think that's the right thing to do? What do you think then would happen? Let's learn expansive questioning, allowing people to talk. Glennon, you said you don't like it when someone's like, blah, blah, blah, just do this. What if they said, is there more you want to say about that? Then what happened then? How did you feel? All right, so what do you think? I mean, is that not love pouring on you? Give someone the floor, kids, partners, whoever, and let them. And I promise you guys, pod Squad, if the only thing you took from part one was that you were gonna stop auto advice giving and you were gonna start asking expansive questions, that shit would change your entire life. I swear, it would change your relationships. Because the intimacy that we build when we're actually interested enough to listen to our people changes the depth of those relationships.
- [49:37]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, because if you're trying to step in and fix the problem, there's this undertone of non trust in your partner. Kid, whatever. And over time, that erosion of the belief that your partner might not have in you becomes so prevalent, and then you're just like, fuck it. I give up. I'm not even gonna try.
- [50:01]
Terri Cole
Yes. That's such a great point, Abby. And it's like, I can't do it, right. In Boundary Boss, my first book, I told this story of my husband, who's like a very mellow Pisces. We've been together 27 years. He's an artist. Anyway, he had a situation where a rep embezzled a bunch of him, and I'm an Aries, and I was not at all evolved at that point. And I was so pissed, and I couldn't wait to get legal. And I was like, we're gonna do this and we're gonna. So I could see. Finally. It took a while for me to see how much my response was not helpful. Again, centering what was happening to Vic on me as the solution, even though this guy's 10 years older than me and lived a whole frigging life before me. And finally I said, hey, babe, just tell me how can I best support you in this situation? And he very calmly said, you can have faith that I'm gonna figure it out, and then I'm gonna figure it out my way. And I said, great, I have total faith. And the PS on that story is he got every dime back from that rep, and he did it. No, legal didn't cost us a penny to do it, because he's a much better person than I am. Anyway, that's a story.
- [51:11]
Abby Wambach
But it's like a worthiness thing too, right? I feel Like, God bless all the HFCs out there who. Like, when you said, zip up your energy so that people don't think that you have the answers, that's scary for someone who has developed their entire identity and worthiness on the earth through this idea that what they have to offer other people is this thing that takes a lot of gumption and, like, bravery.
- [51:44]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [51:44]
Abby Wambach
Because what do HFCs like? If someone's listening right now, who's an HFC and you're telling them their job is not to love their people through, then what the hell are they here for?
- [51:55]
Glennon Doyle
What is their worth?
- [51:57]
Terri Cole
Okay, so that's such a great point. And let's finish your sentence. They think their job is to love their people through control.
- [52:05]
Abby Wambach
Right?
- [52:08]
Terri Cole
Is control love?
- [52:09]
Abby Wambach
No, it's not, is it? It's the opposite. Abby taught me that early. Because love implies trust. So we only control things we don't trust, which means we have to do one or the other. Correct.
- [52:26]
Terri Cole
Well, here's the thing. I want you guys to get that when we get into recovery from being an hfc, this doesn't mean that we never tell the people we love what we think. It doesn't mean this is off limits forever. People are like, oh, so you're, you know. You know, online how they just love to misunderstand what you're saying.
- [52:42]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [52:42]
Terri Cole
So that's what you're saying. I can never, ever, ever. I'm like, no, it's literally not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying telling people what to do can't be the first stop on the bus if you want to have good relationships. That's it. That's all we're saying.
- [52:57]
Glennon Doyle
That's good.
- [52:57]
Terri Cole
What if we just create space to be heart connected with someone while they're struggling with someone? Because here's the thing. As HFCs and you guys, we know this. This isn't just important things. I'm telling my hairdresser not to take the 405. Cause there's construction.
- [53:15]
Abby Wambach
Like, totally.
- [53:16]
Terri Cole
I can't even let you drive the way you want to drive. Do you know what I'm saying?
- [53:21]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. Yeah.
- [53:22]
Amanda Doyle
You're getting in the correct lane at the grocery store. And I'm super pissed because I am counting the number of things that you have, and that is a. And underline you sob. And this is messing with my entire worldview.
- [53:35]
E
So it's everything.
- [53:36]
Amanda Doyle
But I think I'm so excited that you agreed to do two episodes with us, because I really am so happy to in our next episode, talk about recovery and really talk about what is happening inside the hfc. Because I think we talk about it a lot of like, okay, so you're trying to control the person. The person isn't feeling love, they're feeling control. And you're not having intimacy. But if you're the HFC who is pouring all of your energy, all of what feels like love coming out of you on the other person, but you're not getting any loop of intimacy back, it isn't just about the other people. You are living your whole, whole life without a flow of love, even though in your mind, you are pouring more love out than you even have to give. So I want to really talk about the way we kind of reroute our life force to come from a more stable place and to come back to a more stable place. Because that is the opportunity cost of all of this, right?
- [54:48]
Terri Cole
Yes. There's so much, though, on the other side. You guys will see when we get into it, there is so much nourishment, there's so much relief, there's so much peace, there's so much relaxation. And these are all things when we're active HFCs, we really don't have. We're endlessly seeking peace, but we don't have it because we're doing it at the expense of self. And so we're just pissed. We're just low grade annoyed all the time. Just waiting for someone to cut me off in traffic so I can be, like, right on the edge of exploding again. We think we're loving our people up, and in our minds we are. But the experience. Back to Glennon's question about how do other people experience us? It's dehumanizing. They experience us as people a lot of times that they're afraid of.
- [55:42]
Amanda Doyle
All right, y'all come back for our next episode with Terri Cole. We're about to fix you.
- [55:48]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [55:48]
Amanda Doyle
Isn't that right, Terri?
- [55:50]
Terri Cole
Correct. Three Aries and a Gemini, guaranteed.
- [55:54]
Amanda Doyle
If you just trust us, we're gonna fix you. Okay, great. See you next time.
- [55:59]
Terri Cole
Bye.
- [56:05]
Abby Wambach
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things. Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen. Listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.