Becoming Full of Yourself | Austin Channing Brown

Summary

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Podcast Summary: We Can Do Hard Things

Episode: Becoming Full of Yourself | Austin Channing Brown

Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Austin Channing Brown
Release Date: August 26, 2025

Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation with author and justice advocate Austin Channing Brown, centered on her new book, Full of Myself: Black Womanhood and the Journey to Self Possession. The conversation explores what it means to "become full of yourself" as an act of liberation and justice, especially for Black women and marginalized people. Brown shares stories of her personal journey toward self-possession in the face of systems that ask her to diminish herself. The hosts and guest examine the intersection of personal healing, embodiment, systemic injustice, and what it really means to reclaim one’s full humanity.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Purpose of Full of Myself and Centering Black Women

[05:02]–[09:22]

• Self-Help vs. Justice Work: Austin emphasizes that although her book is marketed as self-help, it’s inseparably tied to her racial justice work. She rejects the tradition of “universal” self-help that ignores the impact of systems (patriarchy, racism, homophobia).
• Centering Marginalized Voices: The book's methodology centers Black women, not just as a lens but for the benefit of everyone: “I am convinced that everybody in the room actually learns more when Black women are able to have a conversation amongst ourselves with others present.” (Austin Channing Brown, 07:09)
• Amanda reflects on her own journey and discomfort, acknowledging her tendency to universalize, and recognizes the importance of simply listening as Austin shares her truth.

2. The Journey Toward Self-Possession and Embodiment

[11:03]–[18:14]

• Emptying vs. Fullness: Austin recounts a pivotal experience of being fired from a church job—a result, she says, of becoming a “cultural fit” by unconsciously shrinking herself to meet white expectations in her workplace, including code-switching and changing her demeanor.
  • “I had worked so hard to empty myself. I had worked hard to be a person who was a cultural fit.” (Austin Channing Brown, 11:59)
• The Dangers of Belonging: Abby and Austin discuss the trade-off between belonging to oneself vs. belonging to a group that demands assimilation.
  • "Do I want to belong to this community or do I want to belong to myself?" (Abby Wambach, 14:38)
• Community as Armor: Austin stresses the necessity of finding community for true justice work and self-belonging, to resist isolation and burnout.
  • "The first thing you should be doing is not speaking up. The first thing you should be doing is finding your community." (Austin Channing Brown, 17:13)
• The Trojan Horse Analogy: Amanda likens being rooted in oneself and one’s community to being a “Trojan horse”—present within a system but not loyal to its norms.

3. The Micro-Moments of Embodiment and Resistance

[22:22]–[29:56]

• Cost of Authenticity: When Austin dares to “bubble up” instead of code-switch, she receives feedback that she’s not “gracious,” “happy,” or is even suffering from “group think”—demonstrating how resistance is pathologized.
  • “That’s what the status quo does when you do not meet the status quo. It has names for you.” (Austin Channing Brown, 24:23)
• Insider Information and the Power of Marginalized Lenses: Austin coins the phrase, “Black people, especially Black women, are told we have an attitude problem when what we actually have is insider information.” (Amanda Doyle quoting Austin, 27:11)
  • “I know white people better than white people know white people. And white people really don't like that.” (Austin Channing Brown, 27:24)
• Masks and True Selves: They discuss how dominant groups are often blind to their own behaviors, whereas marginalized people are hyper-aware out of necessity.

4. Rhythm, Embodiment, and Being “Enough”

[31:24]–[38:03]

• Dissonance and Rejection: Austin describes being asked to read at a church and receiving constant critique, ultimately realizing, “My best was not what they were looking for. They were looking for their best wrapped in my body.” (Glennon Doyle quoting Austin, 32:09)
• White vs. Black Church Rhythms: Austin illustrates cultural differences using sermon delivery styles—pointing to the broader issue of how employers or communities prize conformity over authentic diversity.
  • “When you invite me on stage, this is the way that I am going to do it. This is what I bring. This is the whole point of diversity.” (Austin Channing Brown, 34:38)
• Failure, Burnout, and Self-Loss: The hosts ask what happens when you don't love yourself enough to resist assimilation—Austin points to burnout, loss of self, and eventual ejection or escape from harmful systems.

5. The Messy Truth of Reclamation

[42:12]–[56:16]

• Misery and Healing: Amanda and Austin discuss how reclaiming one’s true self is both liberating and painful—a process full of anger, sadness, and discomfort, yet ultimately honest.
  • “It feels horrible...and yet that feels more honest than pretending that I've been okay.” (Austin Channing Brown, 43:00)
• Therapy and Saving Yourself: Austin recounts a powerful therapy moment where her husband wishes he could save her from her pain, and the therapist replies:
  • “Austin is gonna save herself.” (Austin Channing Brown, 51:50)
• Risk and Decisions: Every act of embodiment involves risk—risk of rejection, of not getting the job, of being marginalized. But it's also a path to freedom.
  • “The risk of not emptying, the risk of full embodiment is frightening and freeing. But it’s moment to moment.” (Austin Channing Brown, 54:42)
• “Fair” vs. “Just”: In a job interview, Austin explains she would not confront drunken students alone at 3am as a Black woman; she’d call security. She explores the difference between everyone being treated “the same” (fairness) and what is actually “just,” given the realities of inequality and risk.

6. Universal Application Without Erasure

[56:16]–[59:28]

• Who Is the Book For? While this is "for Black women," Austin agrees her book can benefit everyone by centering the most marginalized, letting understanding radiate outward.
  • “If it’s true here, it’s true all the way through.” (Glennon Doyle, 57:08)
• Beyond “Self Help”: Amanda points out most self-help books are written for privileged readers—Austin’s is more like “us help,” because the solutions radiate out from the most marginalized.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I am convinced that everybody in the room actually learns more when black women are able to have a conversation amongst ourselves with others present.” (Austin Channing Brown, 07:09)
• “I had worked so hard to empty myself. I had worked hard to be a person who was a cultural fit.” (Austin Channing Brown, 11:59)
• “But the expectation was that I would use whatever marginalized status I had to support them without the expectation of being supported in who I am.” (Austin Channing Brown, 13:08)
• “My best was not what they were looking for. They were looking for their best wrapped in my body.” (Glennon Doyle quoting Austin, 32:09)
• “Black people, especially black women, are told we have an attitude problem when what we actually have is insider information.” (Amanda Doyle quoting Austin, 27:11)
• “Austin is gonna save herself.” (Austin Channing Brown, 51:50)
• "If it’s true here, it’s true all the way through." (Glennon Doyle, 57:08)
• "Your book is us Help is all I’m saying." (Amanda Doyle, 57:56)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [05:02] — Austin explains the difference between her book and traditional self-help, and why centering Black women matters.
• [11:03] — Austin tells the story of being fired for not assimilating, opening up the discussion on “emptying” oneself.
• [14:38] — Abby and Austin on the “belong to yourself vs. belong to the group” dilemma.
• [17:13] — Why finding community is essential before speaking up in justice work.
• [22:22] — Amanda asks about the real micro-level costs of resisting assimilation; Austin details workplace pushback.
• [27:11] — “Attitude” vs. “insider information”—Austin’s lens on how Black women’s perspectives are often dismissed.
• [32:09] — Realization that “doing your best” isn’t enough when systems want you to replicate their standards.
• [41:36] — What happens when you lack self-love or a sense of fullness in oppressive systems.
• [43:16] — Therapy moment: “Austin is gonna save herself.”
• [47:46] — Distinction between what is “fair” and “just” in institutional settings.
• [54:42] — The ongoing, difficult, moment-to-moment process of becoming “full of yourself.”

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Conclusion

Becoming Full of Yourself is more than a book about building confidence; it’s a radical invitation to personal and communal liberation. Austin Channing Brown powerfully articulates how reclaiming one’s fullness challenges systems of oppression and benefits every person—especially when those most at the margins are put at the center. The episode is a heartfelt testament to the messy, courageous, and necessary work of embodiment, belonging, and justice, illuminating truths that transcend the boundaries of race, gender, and personal story.

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Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

Austin Channing Brown is an author and speaker providing inspired leadership on racial justice in America. She is the New York Times best selling author of I'm Still Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness. Arisa's Book Club Pick, her latest book, Full of Myself, Black Womanhood and the Journey to Self Possession is available now. Okay, Pod Squad, first of all you should know that before we begin, our guest today is one of my favorite people on the entire planet.

[Austin Channing Brown]

True.

[Amanda Doyle]

Is that not true?

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's true.

[Amanda Doyle]

That is true. So the person who is here is the artist, the justice champion, Austin Channing Brown.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Hello, my loves. I'm so glad to see your faces.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's been too long. Austin has a new book out. The world is very lucky. Okay. And Austin's new book is called Full of Myself, and it is, I think, the book for right now. The book for right now. It is the liberation story of a woman reclaiming her full humanity in a world trying to keep her from that. And I sent Austin an email this morning asking her if I could open up the interview with this story. So when I got an early copy, that's the best perk of my job. I sat down on the couch, as Abby knows, with my dogs and my tea, and I didn't move from the first page until the last. Everyone else carried along with their day around me.

[Austin Channing Brown]

We did.

[Abby Wambach]

And so did she.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Because your writing just blew my mind in this book, which you know, because every 10 minutes I would stop and text you pictures of your own pages with just like, wtf? Question mark, question, question. And you're like, please. Okay. So because of my love for you and because of my lifelong attempt to re embody myself, I related so freaking deeply to this book. And so after I finished the last page, I wrote you and told you that.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Mm.

[Amanda Doyle]

And you wrote back in true Austen fashion with a very loving email that said something like this. That's wonderful, honey, as you do say to me. And you said something like, I definitely believe there's healing and learning in this book for everyone, but can you, Austin, share with us what was the but in that email?

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah, I think it's really easy to read this book in the genre of self help. Right. Self help for women. My publisher would actually love it if I would just get on here and say, this book is for all women.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's my job.

[Austin Channing Brown]

They'd be very happy with me. But the truth is, this work is just as connected to my justice work as everything else that I've done. And for me, the work of becoming full of ourselves is still justice work. Right. There was a whole era of women's self help books that in their introduction said, listen, I know patriarchy is a thing, and I know racism is a thing, and I know homophobia is a thing, but we're not going to talk about any of that. They set the expectation right from the top that even though we know there are all kinds of injustices in the world, we're not gonna talk about any of that. And this book is the opposite. I want to frame what it is we're experiencing as women, as black people, as marginalized people, as queer people. Right. That we are not just timid, we are not just lacking self confidence, we are not just quirky. Right. That becoming full of our is a justice issue. We have to swim against the status quo in order to become full of ourselves.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Austin Channing Brown]

And that I do not want to get lost in any conversation I have about this book. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Before we move on from the email, I just sat with it because, you know, you were saying to me that's this is great, like, I hope this helps you with your eating disorder treatment also.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's for black women and it's about black women. And it was so kind and so beautiful. And I just felt like this email is proof of Austin's being full of herself. Like in the behind the scenes moments, I imagine you felt something in your body when you read that email. This is what I wanna get to your embodiment in that moment.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yes. Because it's really important. Well, first of all, I have gone through all kinds of eras, seasons in my justice work. Right. Who I was when I was doing this at 21 is not who I am at. Right. And one of the things that I have been convinced of or is sort of my lifelong desire to prove with my work is that the world has so much to learn when black women are centered. So often when we do racism work, in particular racial justice work, we center the white folks in the room. We try to make sure that you all can catch up. We try to answer all your questions. We have tissues prepared for you. Right. Like everything gets centered around you and your experience. Experience. And over the last few years, my deep desire has been to see what happens when we censor the voices of black women. And I am convinced that everybody in the room actually learns more when black women are able to have a conversation amongst ourselves with others present. Right. Than would happen if I just tried to communicate to you and you alone. And I think that is what I'm subtly, not subtly, trying to show with this book. I am thrilled that you read it and thought, oh my God, me and my own embodiment. Right. Is being spoken to in this moment. But I don't want to lose the fact that you are also queer. Right. I don't want to lose the fact that you are also a woman living under patriarchy. I don't want to lose the fact that for years, instead of being called a writer, you are called a blogger. I don't want to. Do you know what I mean? Like, I want to bring all of the ways that all of you have had to swim against the status quo to the forefront. And I hope it touches things personally, but I want it to be able to travel with you on your journey in the totality of your humanity.

[Amanda Doyle]

So is the difference then we're having this conversation. And what a white lady like me might do in those moments is say, okay, let's all talk about our different embodiments. And then you go, and then I'll go. And then we'll find how they're the same. Right. Because P.S. that was my first version of the scenario.

[Austin Channing Brown]

So, so great.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm learning so much. Second, the second version of that is you just keep talking and if I will find myself somewhere in there, but you just keep going.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's right. That's right. And by doing that, you actually uncover more.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Right. You make connections between your Ed. Your ED does not become a quirk of yours.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Austin Channing Brown]

It does not become this individualistic failure of yours. Right. Your ED is connected to the expectations of a nation that does not like women. Right. And so that tie to justice work, that tie to systems, that tie to the status quo, that matters.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Austin Channing Brown]

To the work that you're doing and the way that you understand yourself. Mm.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, can you talk to us now about what it means to empty yourself for people who are listening right now and are saying, okay, wow, that was the beginning of an interview. Now. Now they're with us, Austin.

[Austin Channing Brown]

We're like, wow.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Now tell us what you are talking about. Take us all to a moment.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Okay, so one of the first stories in the book is about me being fired. Just ruined what little self esteem I still had at the moment. Okay, friends, my whole life, I have been the good girl, right? I have been the girlfriend that parents love more than the boyfriend loves me. Do you know what I mean? Like, I am the straight A student. I'm the right. I do not fail. And yet I was sitting in this mega church where I was on staff, being told, being listed, listed the number of ways that I was failing before being fired. And I could feel myself getting smaller and smaller and smaller because I had worked so hard to empty myself. I had worked hard to be a person who was a cultural fit.

[Amanda Doyle]

What does that mean?

[Austin Channing Brown]

So at the job I worked at, all the women did not sound like this. They sounded like this.

[Amanda Doyle]

They sounded like me.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, okay.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Right. And so every morning, they would greet each other, not like, hey, Glennon. Which is what I would do. Right. They'd be like, hi, and without even thinking about it, friends, not on purpose, not like consciously trying to fit in. I would model back what they were doing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Right. And so I no longer talked like this. I found myself talking like this all the time. And I didn't even notice it until my husband was walking with me one day and he heard me do it, and he was like, who is that? And I said, I don't know. Damn good question it. I have no idea who that is. Right. Because I didn't hear it happening. I was the fish in water.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Right. But there were expectations that I would change the way that I speak, that I would change hair, that I would change my look, my dress. Right. There were expectations that I would think like them, that I would support all the opinions, that I would use my blackness to pat them on the back for any justice adjacent. I can't actually call it justice work. Justice adjacent work. Right. But the expectation was that I would use whatever marginalized status I had to support them without the expectation of being supported in who I am.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my God, that is fucking good.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Right?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. You became a cultural fit.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Except I couldn't do it, which is why I got fired. Right, right, right. There were some things that was happening subconsciously, but when I got put in a room and was asked to defend our community, not talking about Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman, I couldn't do it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right, right. And that was the moment.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That was the moment. That was the moment I knew I was going to be fired. That was the moment.

[Abby Wambach]

And this moment happens to all of us.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And the question is, do I want to belong to this community or do I want to belong to myself or do I want to still keep belonging to myself? Because this is the shit that happened as the only queer one on a lot of my teams growing up.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yes. And that.

[Abby Wambach]

It comes down to a moment.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

But we are so quick to stop belonging to ourselves and stick to the belonging of the community. How did you, A, realize that moment was happening and B, decide, okay, I belong to myself and my integrity first.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's right. A couple things. One, I want to say that that is such a. A major aha. Because most people skip over it when they get to that moment. There is no pause.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right, right.

[Austin Channing Brown]

There is no pause to even ask the question, who am I going to belong to in this moment? And usually what happens is all the perks of belonging become more important. That's right. The promotion, the leadership development, the increase in money, the invitation to. To the, I don't know, golf trip. Yacht thing, whatever. You know what I mean? Right. But it comes with perks. Right. And so often we prioritize those perks over belonging to ourselves. Right. And so I think, in all sincerity, what was really helpful for me was to have a different community to belong to.

[Amanda Doyle]

Of course.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah. So within this larger structure, I have my own multicultural team who is trying to lead justice work. We are putting on workshops, we are leading trainings. We are talking about the culture of our church. We are talking about what we would like to see change. And now I have a responsibility to them, not just to myself. Right. I already have a community of belonging to.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right.

[Austin Channing Brown]

And often when we try to start doing justice work, we try to do it as an isolated being. And it's a quick way to burn out. It's a quick way to become isolated. It's a quick way to become depressed. I tell everyone, when you enter into justice work, the first thing you should be doing is not speaking up. The first thing you should be doing is finding your community.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. You told me that a decade ago.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yep. Who are you doing this work with?

[Glennon Doyle]

Because that's a defense. From what I hear from you, finding your community basically defends you and makes you immune to the threat of the withdrawal of belonging in community. If you're not going to follow the rules over here.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah. What essentially happens is you become proud of being the troublemaker.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, exactly.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Right. You're not even seeking belonging in the community. Yeah. That isn't the goal. You don't care about the yachts. You don't care about the golf trips. You don't care about the leadership development. You've already made peace with not getting the promotion. Right. At this point, you do kind of want to hold on to the job because Benefits. Right. But your sense of belonging is not at all wrapped up in this place. Right. Your sense of belonging becomes rooted in this community of people who do see your full humanity and are willing to fight alongside you.

[Amanda Doyle]

So you're like a Trojan horse, almost. You're a Trojan horse. You're in there, but you're like the Jesus thing. I am in this world, but I am not of this world.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Exactly.

[Amanda Doyle]

My loyalty is not here. My loyalty is out there. I am here actually to fuck all this up.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That part.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Most of the time we don't know that going in, though.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right, Right.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Because there's the really pretty mission statements and there's the. Right. Everybody knows the language, or at least they used to, you know, when it was for, like. Right. When it was cool when it was trendy, right? And so you would. You would get sucked in, right? Because you would be like, oh my gosh, I see what you could become. And you believe in this too great. And then you discover that the true desire, right, is that you would empty yourself, that you would use your marginalized identities to applaud them. Right? And when that doesn't happen, you need a place that you already belong to. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Austin Channing Brown]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

Can you take us to the micro of that? Because that is freaking perfect. The incredible part of this book in particular is that you have always been a genius at explaining to us the macro of what's going on in this book. You're taking it into the moment and into the body and explaining how it happens moment by moment in a way that we can feel it in your body, which is the genius part of this book. Because in a moment of fascism, the only way to resist is by being fully in your body. Right? We know this. Yes. Let's take it to the moment where you walk into your white church. If you Austin, don't bubble yourself up. If you don't wipe up your voice. If you don't become. Let's just say you dared to say hello.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Tell us what would happen for real.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yes. Well, let me tell you what does happen. Because the moment my husband said that, I was like, shit, Right? I was like, that has got to stop immediately. Right? Right. And what happens is I get a performance review that says, you don't seem happy here. Right. I get pulled into an office and my supervisor says, you know, Lisa said that she had an interaction with you, and you just weren't very gracious. You know, like, I just really. I really think you need to open your heart and just, you know, be more gracious to people who are really trying. You know, I get called names, Right. I get called troublemaker is. Is number one. And I'm so sorry that I can't think of, like, one that I was actually called. But I definitely remember being told that I was suffering from group think. Right. There were things that I was suffering from. Right. That were problematic in the way that I was thinking and the way that I was seeing. And that's what the status quo does when you do not meet the status quo. It has names for you.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Austin Channing Brown]

It turns you into a problem. You are the problem. And if you would just be kinder, nicer, more bubbly, and it depends on the culture that you're in. Right? Right. That was one culture. But there was a whole nother white culture that I found myself in that was the opposite. It was very, like hippie, very, let's all do everything together. Let's eat together, let's work together, let's go to church together, let's live in the same neighborhood, let's live in the same house. Right? And I was like, I won't do all this. That seems like a lot. That seems like an awful lot of togetherness. You know what I mean? Yeah. Right. So white culture can definitely change. Right. It isn't that it's the same everywhere. The problem is that it thinks that it's always right. And therefore if you don't conform to it, then you are wrong. Not what you're doing is wrong. In the words of June Jordan, you are wrong. And you have to say to yourself, wrong is not my name.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay? So one version of this is you're sitting with your coworkers and you dare to tell them that you actually don't think that Hillary's going to beat Trump. We're in like our hopeful, positive, of course this is going to all work out vibe.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

You dare to say, I don't know about that.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah. I'm living in the Midwest. I'm looking at a lot of banners, I'm looking at a lot of flags. I'm a black woman on the Internet. The people at your picnic, your Sunday dinner table are saying something real different in my DMs. Okay. They're tweeting something real different to me. Right. And so I'm, yeah, I'm having this discussion with co workers who I love and adore and trust. Very encouraging, loving environment. But when I say, I, guys, it's summer of 2016. And I'm like, I think he's gonna win. And laughter. Full body, red faced laughter. Now I have experienced laughter that was mean, right? Laughter that was like laughing at me. This didn't feel like that, but it was that. My notion, my assessment was funny.

[Amanda Doyle]

And negative. It was negative, Austin. Oh, listen, you wrote this sentence, which I just put the book down. You wrote, black people, especially black women, are told we have an attitude problem when what we actually have is insider information.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Oh.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like if your publishers don't put that on a billboard in Times Square, they're not doing it right. This is a sentence and a half. Tell us more. What do you mean by insider information?

[Austin Channing Brown]

I know white people better than white people know white people. And white people really don't like that because white people really want to be able to hide. Right they really, really want to be able to hide. And my radar. Right. And by mine, I mean the radar of black women. Right. To be like, something's problematic here.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Something's off here. Even if it's as simple as you have opted into the belonging of the status quo.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That what black women are not saying is, oh, actually, white women are wrong. Right. Oh, actually, you are wrong. What we are saying is all of this is wrong, and even you are not being honored by it. There is actually a better way that we could do this. But you don't believe that I know what I'm talking about.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. And is it like. Is there a version of it that's like you can only know someone by how they treat someone who has less perceived power in a culture than you? Because, like, for example, our kid said to us recently, what do you think of so and so was a parent in the community? And I said, it doesn't matter what we think of them because they treat us a certain way because we're famous. So I can't tell you. I can't tell you what that person is like. I will never be able to tell you. Ask somebody else's parents. Is it like that? It's like people. We put on an act for each other, and then the mask comes off. When you're with anyone who has less perceived power, and that's why you have insider information.

[Austin Channing Brown]

It is who that person is could fluctuate. Right. Sometimes it's perceived power. Sometimes it's a belief that everyone here is the same, that there is no outsider. Right. So there's a person of color in the group. But we thought everybody here was white. You know, ultimately, it is virtually impossible not to be who you actually are. And you can put on a facade and you can wear a mask, and you could try your damnedest to appear something, but until you start to work toward being that person, we can all see you. Mm.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, that's unfortunate.

[Abby Wambach]

It reminds me of. It's like the bully on the playground doesn't think they're a bully.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, like.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

The person in the friend group who's the. Doesn't think that they're the. It feels like this. It's like when you are in the outside looking in, you see it all. When you are in the inside, you can't see everything.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's right. Yeah. And how much more freeing is it, right, to be in the group that says, austin, you are a little bossy, and I can be like, I know. What is that? About. Right. Because now we're not confused. There's no mask. And now I make a decision, am I going to work on it? Right. Or in our friendship group, are we all just gonna, like, laugh at me and turn into action, you know? Exactly. But there are so many people who are so afraid of going to that place where the biases exist, where the places in us that is selfish and that can be mean and that is frightened and that is scared and has all these hurts and all these wounds. It is so much easier to just not go there. Right. But it's also keeping us from both our full humanity and the ability to recognize the full humanity of other people. Yep.

[Glennon Doyle]

It made me think of this, Austin, when you were talking about how, you know, you're always the good girl, you don't fail, you get straight A's, you achieve, you know, give me a challenge, I achieve it.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you are in this moment, and I'm wondering if you can take us back here where you are asked to read a reading for the service, and you're doing it, and you're being critiqued left and right. And a little bit more of this, a little bit less of that, a little bit. And then you say, under those watchful eyes, it dawned on me that my best would never be good enough. My best was not what they were looking for. They were looking for their best wrapped in my body.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my God.

[Glennon Doyle]

Their definition of good, their definition of right, their definition of leadership. I could see it so clearly, and I had no desire to reach it. I did not want to be rhythmless.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Tell us about that. At every level of these, there's this, like, incredible political, worldly betrayal.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

And there's also this. Feels this. When I read that, I felt so heartbroken for you. It felt to me like you arrive at this moment, you've done everything right. You're ready to. And you realize doesn't matter.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Nope.

[Amanda Doyle]

Tell us what it means to be out of rhythm.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Okay, so I'm so sorry. This is, like, very churchy today, friends.

[Amanda Doyle]

I don't feel like it is.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Okay, great. I just feel like there's a. I just feel like white church, black church just offers a lot of rich opportunities. Talk about how we got here. Fertile ground, if you will.

[Amanda Doyle]

Let's.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Fertile ground. Let's do it. There's lots here. The garden is plentiful. So if I was at a white church, right. And I heard someone preaching on Exodus, on Moses, right. It would probably sound like. And Moses really Struggled with his own leadership, you know, and he had to work up the courage. He needed a good partner in Aaron, you know, but he was ultimately able to stand up to the king and set everybody free. Right?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Austin Channing Brown]

And that would probably be a really good sermon. Fiery. But if. Right. But if we win, if we went to the black church, it was sound something like this. And Moses set the people free. Despite what the king said, despite what the king wanted, despite the systems and structures, despite slavery, despite hardship, the people were free. Are you free today? Do you believe in freedom today? Do you believe in tearing down the system today? Right. Sounds completely different. Do you hear the difference in rhythm?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Austin Channing Brown]

There is a literal difference in cadence and rhythm, in voice and pitch. Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

And embodiment.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Embodiment. And I love the way I have learned to do it. That doesn't mean the other way is wrong. It just means when you invite me on stage, this is the way that I am going to do it. This is what I bring. This is the whole point of diversity. This is to experience a different kind of spirituality, a different way of understanding the Bible, a different way of reading, a different way of being, and hopefully speak to a different part of the audience. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Because like, your way is you.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And when you do, you. You give me permission to do me.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's why they can't have it.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's why they can't have it.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's bringing too much freedom. And it's like, well, DEI didn't work is the line now. But that's cause we didn't try it.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah. There was no I.

[Amanda Doyle]

There was no I.

[Austin Channing Brown]

At what point was the equality? Did I miss the equality? We didn't allow. That was the inclusion. At no point did I feel included. Friends.

[Amanda Doyle]

We didn't allow them to bring their full selves. We allowed empty shells of people that we would fill up with our way. We didn't allow people to bring their full selves and mess with the rhythm enough to create something new.

[Austin Channing Brown]

We just did the D. That's right. Good. That's all we did. And now I'm standing on stage, which is usually my happy place. Right. I love being on stage. I love a microphone. I'm in my happy place being told that the way my body would do this naturally, even as something as simple as reading a Bible verse, which I've been doing for a really long, right is wrong, that I cannot get it right. And Amanda, you're absolutely right. For me, it was clear as day that I did not want to reach the standard being set. For me, the standard was actually beneath me. My own standard was actually higher. My own standard was harder. My own standard required more bravery. My own standard, right, would have been what was different and unique and potentially really valuable to my community. And I didn't want it. I didn't want it. I love myself and I love the history, right? I love the legacy. I love the deep spiritual connection that I have to my own community when I am fully embodying it, even without all of them being present, right? In fact, it feels like more of a gift because there are also individuals in this audience who haven't been able to experience it in years. And here I am and I can offer them this gift.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Austin Channing Brown]

Yep.

[Glennon Doyle]

What happens if you don't have that?

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because that really means you'll never be us enough.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's right. And by the way, it's true. And so what usually happens is burnout. Or like me, you get fired or you change yourself so much you don't recognize yourself anymore. Right. Like Abby said, you begin to choose belonging over choosing yourself. Or you get to a point where you have to get out and you know that you have to get out. And everything becomes about figuring out how do I extricate myself from these spaces.

[Amanda Doyle]

And Austin, in reading the gorgeous way that all of this unfolded in the book, it was like you were understanding that this was happening to you in the structure you were in at that job. And it was like all the alarm bells and you figured it out. You're wise enough to know oh, my God. I'm being separated from myself. I am dissociating to stay in this group. I am. But then the really tricky part comes when you refuse to dissociate, which is that you are stuck in your body, which begins the real healing. Because what's in your body is your trauma.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah. And it feels horrible. It's angry. I am sad. I am woozy. I feel sick to my stomach. I like, I feel horrible. And yet that feels more honest.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Than pretending that I've been okay. Because I haven't been okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

So then we get to that moment. You're in the misery of the reclamation, which is half misery, half freedom. And you go to therapy.

[Austin Channing Brown]

There's a lot of tears. Yeah, there's a lot of tears. There's a lot of therapy. On the other side, there's new decisions.

[Amanda Doyle]

Tell us.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Right. There's new decisions. So one of the interviews I have afterwards is to be a resident director at college, which means I will be responsible for roughly 418 and 19 year olds who are away at college for the first time, living in a dormitory. So as you can imagine, during that interview, there are a lot of situational questions. Okay. What would you do if someone put a frog in the community bathroom? What would you do if two college students started arguing in the middle of their dorm? What would you do? Here's a real situation that I had. What would you do if one of your students, who really loves animals, decided to rescue a dead squirrel and put it in her mini fridge so that she could bury it appropriately at a later date? You know what I'm saying?

[Amanda Doyle]

Like, situations, inevitable.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Thanks. Inevitable situations. Friends FAQs, if you will. One of the situations they give me is what would you do if a group of students were drunk? If athletes were drunk outside the dormitory at 3am making all kinds of noise. And I know that the answer I'm supposed to give, right, this question is about confidence and this question is about not avoiding conflict. That's why this question is being asked. If I give the answer, I'm going to cower in my bed and pretend I don't hear it. I'm not getting the job. Right?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Austin Channing Brown]

The right answer is, well, of course I'm going to get out of bed. I'm going to confront the students. I'm going to make sure everybody is safe. I'm going to take their IDs, I'm going to confront the situation. But I am a black woman. I am five, six. And we are talking about me being outside at 3am on a predominantly white campus. They didn't say male athletes, but I assumed male athletes who are not sober. This sounds like a terrible idea to me. Right. But now I have to make a decision. And when I give my honest answer, which is what I would like to do. Here's what I would like to do. As a black woman who's going to confront drunken male athletes at 3am I would like to call security, have them meet me and confront the students along with folks that they will easily recognize as authority figures. Me and my pajamas does not seem like the best idea. Right. But that's not the answer they're looking for, and I know it. And so I have this moment where I have to decide, am I going to empty myself right now and give the answer that I'm supposed to give, or am I gonna risk losing this job by giving the honest answer and prioritizing my safety, not just the safety of the students, but prioritizing my own safety as a black woman on a predominantly white campus? And in order to still get the job, I need the people at the table to not say, oh, but our students would never. Oh, but our. Our student body is. They're just so wonderful. It would never be that way just because you're black. Mm.

[Abby Wambach]

Or they say in their head, like, maybe you answer that honestly. And they say, well, then we're just gonna hire a white person.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Hello. Right. Or they say, that's unfair.

[Abby Wambach]

Yep.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Right. Which is where we are in America right now. So expecting one of my white male co workers who runs a different dorm to go out there and confront the students, That's a different standard than me asking for security. So. So that's inherently unfair.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right, Right.

[Austin Channing Brown]

And the inability to tell the difference between fair and just. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Can you tell us the difference between fair and just?

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's good. Right. Well, so in this. I don't. I don't have, like, a definition for you, friends, but in. In this. Right. Fair is to expect everybody to do the same. Same level for the same reward, but just. It takes into account this complex system that we actually live in.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Austin Channing Brown]

And in the complex system that we actually live in, we have to acknowledge that there actually are, in fact, people who are racist, that those who are racist are probably more likely to be so. When they are drunk. And that we are putting a black woman in a dangerous situation. A potentially dangerous situation. Right. And to ignore that reality, to ignore that possibility, that would be unfair.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yep. And that's insider information that you have.

[Austin Channing Brown]

That's insider.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's insider information that's. Let me see if these people think they know white people better than I do, because I'm going to tell them what would happen out there, and we're going to see if they know or.

[Austin Channing Brown]

If they go, do you know?

[Amanda Doyle]

Right, right, right, right. So then what happened?

[Austin Channing Brown]

I got hired.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Austin Channing Brown]

I got hired.

[Glennon Doyle]

Which story did you tell Austin? Which answer did you actually give the people?

[Austin Channing Brown]

Oh, yes. I absolutely told them that I would not feel safe doing this by myself. And I made sure to actually answer the question. Like, this is not about fear of confrontation. Right. I. But I am a black woman, and I need you all to recognize what that means for me on this campus. Right. And not only did they give me the job friends, they were consistent in that support my entire time working there. And this is actually a really important point for me because it is a really strange thing to say that one of the best workplaces I ever had was at a predominantly white. Predominantly white, teeny, tiny Christian college. Were they historically German? I don't know. But. Right. Like, this is not the place that should be one of the best places that I ever worked. Yeah. Because I existed on a team that could see me, that honored me, that celebrated me. My second week on campus is when Ferguson exploded. And my teammates, who I have known for two weeks, bring me dinner because they say, austin, we recognize that you are not only working right. At this new job with all these new. Right. Doing trainings and whatnot, you are also paying deep attention to what is happening in Ferguson. And we at least want to make sure you don't have to think about what to eat tonight. Mm hmm. Right. And I share that because there are probably other places on that campus, y', all, where I would not have felt safe, where I did not feel safe.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right, Right.

[Austin Channing Brown]

There were many other communities on that campus where I could not have worked. But it feels really important to say that that department, that staff, was able to create so much safety for me. That is one of the best places that I ever worked.

[Amanda Doyle]

So safety. So this is the beginnings of you figuring out. I mean, when you went to therapy after all this time, and you were really struggling with some painful childhood trauma.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And your beloved hubby, Tommy, he confesses to you and the therapist that he really wants to save you from your pain. And tell us what your therapist says to him.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And then how you do it, because I want everybody who's listening to get some breadcrumbs of, like, how this reclamation of self begins.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yeah. So we're on a zoom Right. But I can see her leaning into the camera, and she's smiling. She's got this big smile, right? And she says, tommy, that's so sweet. Like, that's. It's just. It's amazing. But Austin is gonna save herself. And she's, like, still smiling. She's like. And Tommy is like, wait, what? Meanwhile, I am like. Like, my brain is exploding, right? And so she starts laughing because she's seeing two completely different reactions from us. Like, wait, what? And I'm like, can I do that? Is that an option to save myself? And the truth is, is that saving of myself has had to happen slowly. It has had to happen one decision at a time. It has had to happen with realizing the inherent risks of that embodiment. Right? I could have lost that job. Right? That was a risk. I had no idea if they were going to say yes or no, that it comes with inherent risks of rejection moment by moment by moment, right?

[Amanda Doyle]

What do you need to feel safe? Because your therapist kept saying to you that part of reclamation is asking yourself, what do I need to feel safe? What is that today?

[Austin Channing Brown]

I think this is one of the parts of the book where, like, I can give stories all day long, but the answer for me is probably gonna be different than the answer for you. Right? And what it is that we're focused on, you know, what I needed to feel safe in that job, is a completely different question from what I need to feel safe from. Childhood trauma when I walk into a bathroom, right? That context matters. The level of trauma matters. Right. The kind of trauma matters. And that is what makes being full of ourselves so damn hard. Yeah, it's so hard because we're doing it on multiple levels. And that is actually a really important component to this book, Right? Because I am also talking about motherhood, and I am talking about being pregnant, and I am talking about childhood trauma. And I am. Right? Because as. As a black woman, what is often assumed is that my life is easy except for racism.

[Amanda Doyle]

Just that one little part. It's just over.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Just that one little thing.

[Amanda Doyle]

On Tuesday morning, I would just totally.

[Glennon Doyle]

Isolated from everything else. So it'.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Fight exactly on the side. It's on the side. And if I would just stop playing that card, like, everything would be great. Right? And what I wanted to say in this book is that actually black women are also not only struggling with grief. We are also struggling with ed. We are also struggling with depression. We are also struggling with grief. We are also struggling with childhood trauma. We are also trying to raise families. We are al. Right. We also have all these other things that are happening and an unjust system on top of it all. And so the risk of becoming full of ourselves. Right. The risk of not emptying, the risk of full embodiment is frightening and freeing. But it's moment to moment. Right. I wish that I could be like, okay, well, we're gonna like, do this mantra really fast. Everyone do this mantra trouble before you fall asleep and your life is going to change. Right. It doesn't work like that. It really is in the decisions. Am I. I love the way that you put this, Abby. Am I going to remain true to myself and to the community who knows me and loves me and sees me? Right. Or am I going to let go of myself in order to belong to this status quo which will I value?

[Amanda Doyle]

Oof, Austin. Oof. This book is what's needed in the moment. And I take your point about who this book is about and who it's for. And I understand, but I am stubborn. So I am also going to say.

[Austin Channing Brown]

I do think it's for everyone. Yeah, Right. I do believe it's for everyone. I believe it's for everyone because it's centered and marginalized. Right. In a marginalized body.

[Glennon Doyle]

That it's not in spite of it, it's because of it. That is such an important point. Because it's like you can get on the dartboard, but if you're right in the center, if you're in the bullseye, then it's like radiates out to the whole thing.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that's what you're saying. If it's true here, it's true all the way through.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Yes. Yeah. And this is the problem with a lot of other, like, self help women kind of books. Right. Is that there is a level of privilege and a level of bias and a level. Right. That does not radiate out. Right. And so people who are marginalized pick it up and they're like, I got nothing. Like, this does not apply to me. This is not my situation. I don't have access to any of this. These are not decisions that I could make. These are not options that are open to me. Right. And it becomes a really limiting experience. Maybe a great read, but a limiting experience.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, that's why it's called self help. It's not US Help.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Right, Right. It's expressly for the self.

[Amanda Doyle]

We're like, we're not actually trying to help. Damn everybody else. Your book is us Help is all I'm saying.

[Austin Channing Brown]

I hope so. I really hope so.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's so beautiful.

[Austin Channing Brown]

And I think it's crucial, right, that you don't give up your ground on your own justice work. Yes, you could, all three of you could opt into whiteness and just live there. You could. But you know the pain of marginality. You know it, you have felt it, you have experienced it, you have been harmed by it. And so when you can sink into that work of your full humanity as justice work, right. I just think it makes it more possible to free yourself, to save yourself, and for that freedom to radiate out to those around you.

[Abby Wambach]

What a dream.

[Amanda Doyle]

I think we'll end on that.

[Abby Wambach]

You are.

[Amanda Doyle]

Go get this freaking book, okay? Go get full of myself. You will not regret it. You can thank us later. Austin, you're a genius. You're a prophet. I am so deeply grateful that you're my friend. I love you so much.

[Austin Channing Brown]

Same.

[Amanda Doyle]

We love you, POD Squad. I'll talk to you after you've read the book and not until then. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. Episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we be would so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott and Bill Schultz.