Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things: Episode Summary

Episode: Being the Boss of Yourself with RHBC's Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Release Date: March 12, 2025
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Bozoma Saint John, Chief Marketing Officer (RHBC)

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1. Introduction to Bozoma Saint John

The episode centers around an in-depth conversation with Bozoma Saint John (Bozema St. John), a renowned marketing executive known for her leadership roles at Apple, Music, iTunes, Uber, and Netflix. Amanda Doyle introduces Bozema as "a hall of fame, inducted marketing executive, author, entrepreneur, and in our opinion, a general badass" (05:22).

Notable Quote:

Amanda Doyle: “Bozema St. John is... the world's opinion.”

Bozema's impressive accolades, including being named the most influential CMO by Forbes and one of Billboard's most powerful women in music for ten consecutive years, set the stage for a compelling discussion on leadership and authenticity.

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2. Navigating Leadership and Workplace Challenges

The conversation delves into Bozema's departure from Netflix, exploring the difficult decision-making process involved in knowing when to stay or leave a position. Bozema shares her struggle with self-doubt and the inner conflict of determining whether issues stemmed from personal shortcomings or systemic problems within the organization.

Notable Quotes:

Bozema St. John: “You don't have to be the savior. You can save yourself too.” (10:27)

Abby Wambach: “It's hard to articulate whether the problem is you or them... It’s become very humbling.” (12:51)

Bozema emphasizes the importance of self-forgiveness and the courage to acknowledge one's mistakes as essential steps toward personal growth and effective leadership.

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3. Authenticity vs. Conformity

A significant portion of the discussion addresses the tension between being authentic and conforming to corporate norms. Bozema recounts her experience presenting at Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference (WWDC), where she felt pressured to downplay her unique identity to fit into a predominantly white, male-dominated environment.

Notable Quotes:

Bozema St. John: “If I walk into a corporate culture, I am the molecule. The matter has to change.” (33:45)

Abby Wambach: “I refuse to put on the jeans and button-down... because I am very aware of that.” (24:54)

Bozema highlights the systemic expectations for minority women to assimilate, underscoring the emotional and professional costs of such conformity.

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4. Representation and Being the Only One

Bozema discusses the challenges of being the sole minority woman in high-level meetings and the emotional toll it takes. She expresses frustration over being the only representative for her race and gender, which often leaves her feeling isolated and unacknowledged.

Notable Quotes:

Bozema St. John: “I want the credit. I deserve that.” (23:34)

Abby Wambach: “I am unforgettable.” (57:57)

This segment underscores the ongoing struggle for genuine representation and the desire for acknowledgment within corporate structures.

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5. Communicating Across Races

The hosts explore the difficulties in communication and solidarity between white women and women of color in the workplace. Bozema articulates the unique challenges faced by Black women, who often do not share the same advantages and support systems as their white counterparts.

Notable Quotes:

Abby Wambach: “The hardest part about communicating with white women is that they still think we're the same.” (37:31)

Bozema St. John: “Whiteness is the superior.” (28:22)

Bozema highlights how superficial alignment can sometimes marginalize the voices of minority women, emphasizing the need for deeper understanding and true solidarity.

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6. Empowerment and Self-Forgiveness

A recurring theme is the importance of self-empowerment and the ability to forgive oneself for past mistakes. Bozema shares her journey toward embracing vulnerability and recognizing her worth beyond societal expectations.

Notable Quotes:

Abby Wambach: “I keep telling myself, you are a miracle.” (49:58)

Bozema St. John: “You deserve that.” (23:33)

These reflections highlight the necessity of internal validation and resilience in overcoming personal and professional hurdles.

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7. Personal Stories and Resilience

Bozema opens up about her personal life, particularly her relationship with her daughter, Lael. She shares the emotional journey of becoming a mother after the tragic loss of her first daughter, Eve, illustrating her strength and unwavering determination.

Notable Quotes:

Abby Wambach: “Lael is my rainbow baby... a real-life warrior.” (51:29)

Bozema St. John: “When I named her Lael, I was promising God she belonged to Him.” (54:17)

These heartfelt anecdotes showcase the profound impact of personal experiences on Bozema's approach to leadership and life.

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8. Closing Thoughts

The episode concludes with affirmations of Bozema's impact and the hosts' appreciation for her contributions. Bozema's upcoming memoir, The Urgent Life, is teased, promising a deeper dive into her experiences and insights.

Notable Quotes:

Bozema St. John: “I deserve that.” (23:33)

Abby Wambach: “Nobody will ever forget your name.” (57:46)

The hosts encourage listeners to embrace their own miracles and continue facing life's challenges with bravery and authenticity.

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Key Takeaways

• Authenticity in Leadership: Embracing one's true self is crucial, even in environments that pressure conformity.

• Representation Matters: Genuine acknowledgment and representation of minority voices can drive meaningful change.

• Self-Forgiveness: Learning to forgive oneself is essential for personal growth and resilience.

• Solidarity Challenges: Building true solidarity requires deeper understanding beyond superficial alliances.

• Personal Resilience: Personal struggles and triumphs shape one's ability to lead and inspire others.

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Final Note:
This episode of We Can Do Hard Things offers a profound exploration of leadership, authenticity, and resilience through the lens of one of the most influential figures in the corporate world. Bozoma Saint John's candid reflections provide listeners with valuable insights and inspiration to navigate their own hard things with courage and honesty.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

So question first question. Yes, Glennon?

[Bozema St. John]

Yes?

[Abby Wambach]

Are you still being an African auntie? Are you checking your WhatsApp?

[Bozema St. John]

No, I don't check WhatsApp anymore.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm very, very disappointed because Lovey and I taught you about WhatsApp and the importance of it. If you are going to be a true African auntie, you have to check your WhatsApp because that's how the messages come.

[Bozema St. John]

Okay?

[Abby Wambach]

And I sent you a video from this morning. Wait, hold on, let me see If I can just play it here so you can see it, maybe you won't hear the sound. This was critical this morning. It was God talking to me this morning.

[Bozema St. John]

Okay, what did God say to you?

[Abby Wambach]

God said this. Can you kind of see? God said, that's my mother.

[Bozema St. John]

What?

[Abby Wambach]

And her shirt says, I can do hard things.

[Amanda Doyle]

No way.

[Bozema St. John]

This morning.

[Abby Wambach]

This morning I came in from the gym and she was in the kitchen and she was dancing around wearing a shirt that said, I can do hard things. And I looked at her and I was just like, where did that come from? And she was like, oh, do you like it? I was like, do you? Why did you do that? And she was like, oh, I just. This is just a shirt. I just put it on. We both freaked out when I told her what was going on this today.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, my gosh.

[Abby Wambach]

So I sent it to you on WhatsApp, and look at you. You missed the message.

[Bozema St. John]

Well, look.

[Abby Wambach]

What?

[Bozema St. John]

I deserve to miss that beautiful message because I did not check in, but.

[Abby Wambach]

I feel like this is what we were meant to do today.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yep.

[Bozema St. John]

It was destined.

[Amanda Doyle]

Destined.

[Bozema St. John]

I know it was destined because we have been so delighted all morning because we knew we were about to see your face and we haven't seen you for a while.

[Abby Wambach]

I know. I miss both of you so, so much.

[Bozema St. John]

First of all, I should tell everyone what's happening. There are a lot of people listening and they're like, this is a lovely conversation, but who's talking?

[Amanda Doyle]

What's happening?

[Bozema St. John]

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Yes, we have, over time, noticed, Bose, that the pod squad here on We Can Do Hard Things has 40 million questions about being a woman in the workforce or really being any kind of marginalized human in the workforce. And I want to answer their questions, but I am not really in the workforce. I am mostly in the bathtub.

[Amanda Doyle]

Confirm.

[Bozema St. John]

Right. So we decided, Abby and I, that there really couldn't be any more qualified human being on the earth ever, ever, to discuss and guide the world, really, through the minefield of work and womanhood. And that human being is Bozema St. John, who also happens to be a dear friend of ours. Can you introduce.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. Bozema St. John is a hall of fame, inducted marketing executive, author, entrepreneur, and in our opinion, a general badass.

[Bozema St. John]

Also the world's opinion.

[Amanda Doyle]

Bose has led global consumer marketing at Apple, Music and itunes. She was chief brand officer at Uber and global chief marketing Officer at Netflix. Bose is currently named the number one most influential CMO in the world by Forbes and has been named one of Billboard's most Powerful women music for 10 consecutive years.

[Bozema St. John]

Same.

[Amanda Doyle]

In 2021, Harvard Business School published a multimedia case study on her career titled Leading With Authenticity and Urgency, through which she developed and taught a program at the university aptly named the Anatomy of a Badass. Bose was named as an ambassador for the African Diaspora and special envoy to the President of Ghana. And in the spring of 2023, Penguin Books will publish her memoir, the Urgent Life. Bose counts her highest achievement as being a mother to her 12 year old daughter, Lael.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, you guys will welcome.

[Bozema St. John]

Do you listen to your bio and say, what is my life? What did I do? What?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, all of that. All of that. Yes. Yes. I am also in awe.

[Bozema St. John]

It's amazing.

[Abby Wambach]

All the things. It doesn't actually make sense because the stats are not in my favor and have never been. And so it is. Yes. It strikes me as awe inspiring too.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Honey, do you remember the first time we met?

[Bozema St. John]

Of course we met Bose.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

On the together stage.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, that's right.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. I walked into room and you were already there. I told Abby this morning, the first thing I noticed about you was your clothes. Abby said, is it okay to say that? Is that objectifying? And I was like, I don't know, it's both. So I'm just gonna. It's fine.

[Abby Wambach]

Totally fine. Yes.

[Bozema St. John]

I thought you were the most incredibly, beautifully dressed human I'd ever seen. And I was intimidated because of your fancy. Were all the words behind your name when you were on stage, though, talking. What I was telling Abby this morning that I was most struck by was you were so bold and strong when you were talking about work in the world. And then the conversation switched to your daughter and motherhood. And then this unbelievable vulnerability came forward, this softness. You just never see both.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Either the strong or the soft. Right?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, your strong and soft are both.

[Amanda Doyle]

So do you remember meeting us? Were we rememberable?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, rememberable. Yes, you were rememberable. You were rememberable because also, I had seen both of you separately before I saw you in person. Obviously, Abby, clearly, hello. The whole world had seen you already. I knew that. I was very excited about that. Glennon, I don't even know if I even told you this. I first saw you on Oprah's stage at usc.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Abby Wambach]

I was only able to be there for, like one session and it was yours. And I sat in the audience and then this sprite of a person came across the stage and I was like, oh, this is the most interesting white woman I have Ever seen in my life. Like, I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, her. That one.

[Bozema St. John]

This.

[Abby Wambach]

This one.

[Bozema St. John]

Aw.

[Abby Wambach]

And honest. You know, I hadn't heard such honesty before. So by the time we got to the Together live tour, Oh. I knew exactly who in the hell y'all were.

[Bozema St. John]

I did not know that.

[Abby Wambach]

And you did not disappoint. Aww. That's. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Still honest. Even backstage. Still honest. So I was very, very impressed by you both in person.

[Bozema St. John]

Thank you both. So one of our themes this year on this pod is how to know when to dig deep and stay and how to know when to stop digging and go. This is something that we have not figured out yet. Okay, just to preface you with that, But I keep thinking of it in terms of you because I've read some quotes that you've said recently. So you recently left Netflix, where you were the global chief marketing officer, and you said this. You have to know when time is up and keep it moving. And then you said, you don't have to be the savior. You can save yourself too. So chills. How did you know when it was time to leave Netflix? Like, how do you know when it's time to leave a place? What settles in.

[Abby Wambach]

It is so hard to articulate. It really is. Oh, it's hard to articulate because of that hard place of trying to figure out whether or not the problem is you or the problem is them. You know when they say, like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, it's not. It's not. It's not you, it's me. It's like, how many times do you have to say that before you realize that, no, no, that's actually not me at all. It's them. Yes. And then the disappointment in that, in knowing that you chose, you decided and they were the problem, to be able to admit that is so hard, you know? So then, yeah, you spend the time trying to prove that you actually were not wrong, that you chose right. This is what you spend your energy doing. So that's what happens to me too. That often I'm in a situation and I'm like, oh, yeah, no, no, no. I chose right because I'm good at choosing. I thought about it. I have followed my intuition. God told me, and I moved. I went. And then at some point, you're like, uhoh, I don't think this is right. Yes. But I've spent so much time then trying to convince myself that I wasn't wrong, that it must be me, that if I'm only Smarter. If I'm only more likable, if I'm only wittier, and if I'm only more amenable, then maybe I'm not wrong. Because how could I be wrong, right? I know myself. I take no shit. I could never be wrong in that. It's become very humbling. Actually, we were talking about, like, being strong and soft. It's like you can be self assured and also humble. And humble in knowing that sometimes you get it wrong, sometimes you get it wrong again and again and again and again.

[Bozema St. John]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

In that wrongness, it's okay, you still survive. You can be wrong. You know, I'm very comfortable in being wrong now. Very, very comfortable. I'm like, uh, oh, wrong turn again. And everyone will know.

[Bozema St. John]

And God is like the gps. That's like redirecting, redirecting.

[Abby Wambach]

You missed your turn.

[Bozema St. John]

It's so fascinating, Boaz. I've never heard anyone describe it like that, but it is. Like at some point, whether it's a marriage or a job, relationship, whatever, at some point you realize, oh, it's me either way. Because either it's me in this situation that's making it hard or it's me that made the decision before to go into this relationship.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, either it's me, it's me, it's me. It's not them, it's me. And that is such a hard thing. It is a hard thing to acknowledge. It's a hard thing to accept, you know, and then it's a hard thing to correct.

[Bozema St. John]

You have the moment where you're like, either way, it's me. Whether it was me that got me into this, or it's me that's making being in it hard. I'm choosing me. I'm choosing me. I'm getting the hell out.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, I'm gonna stop, forgiven, stop forgiving me. I'm forgiving me for making the wrong choice again. We're so hard on ourselves. And you know what? Beat yourself up. I should have known better. I've seen it before, I should have seen it again, right? And so then it's like the forgiving myself, and I'm talking about me. I constantly have to forgive myself for sometimes making the wrong call for myself. You know, it's so much easier, right, to, like, forgive other people so much. Not sometimes it's hard, but, you know, it's so much easier to say, oh, well, that person made a mistake. Like, if I look at my daughter and she makes a mistake, right? I'm like, oh, hon, it's fine. You're still an amazing person. Like, that was just. That was just. It was bad for the moment. Okay. It's okay. We're going to figure it out. Right. I encourage her that she can make mistakes and that she can turn around and do better. But yet for myself, oh, I could spend months, you know, saying like, but why did you do that? You knew better, you know, and that's what becomes so hard about the staying or the going. How fast can I forgive myself for making the wrong decision?

[Bozema St. John]

Ooh, that's good.

[Abby Wambach]

Will determine how quickly I'm able to get out and correct.

[Bozema St. John]

It's that thing about when you grab onto barbed wire. Don't just hold on forever. Like, don't keep making the mistake because you've put so much time into making the mistake.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Bozema St. John]

The quickest. We always talk about the squishing. The time. Like all of our suffering comes in the time between the knowing and the doing.

[Abby Wambach]

Ooh, yes. Right? Yes. Yes. I was having a conversation with a friend and I was like, you know that time, you know when you hit your shin and that moment between knowing you've hit your shin and when the pain sets in is like the worst.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Because you're just sitting there waiting for the pain to come. You're like, oh, I know this is going to hurt.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

That moment right there is what sometimes we're sitting in, you know, because you don't want the pain to come. And so then we're sitting there being like, ooh, I made a mistake. Uh oh, I hit my shin. How long can I wait before the pain sets in?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Bozema St. John]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Amanda Doyle]

I understand, like, from a personal perspective, you might view some of these choices that you've made as a mistake. But I have kind of another perspective that the world is only ready when it's ready. So corporate America might only be ready for a bosom of St. John in their minds. And then in practicality, Bozema St. John walks through the door and starts to fuck shit up and starts to do her work. And they're like, actually, I don't know if we're this ready yet. I don't know. Right. And so maybe it feels like a personal mistake or a personal decision that you've made that you don't think was great. Or in hindsight you may have chosen differently. But from the perspective of the macro, I think what you're doing is you're laying a foundation for those of us who will come after you, and getting the corporate world, or all of those tables you sat at a little bit more ready for people in certain ways. And I think that that's really important, not to get lost in this conversation, that your presence and representation at some of those tables. And this leads me to my question. You've been at all of the most powerful tables in the corporate world. How does it feel to so often be the one who looks like you at those tables?

[Bozema St. John]

The only one, I'm sure.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Probably the only one.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Yeah. No, look, Abby, thank you for that perspective, you know, because I do often need the reminder of that, too. And so I think both can be true. Part of the reason why I stopped looking at them as the cause or the reason why sometimes something didn't work or for me to figure that out is that I felt like I was giving my power away. And perhaps that's a survival mechanism that I was like, well, if I look at myself, if I say it's me, then I'm better able to feel like, okay, I can make something else happen. I can be the one who chooses because I chose to come, and I can choose to leave. And if I put the power over there, then it feels like I can't choose because I'm waiting for them to do the thing that's right. And so when I'm sitting at those tables and yes, almost always by myself, it is both frustrating to know that I'm probably doing the right thing for the future, but also that I'm the one who has to take the brunt of it. You know, that I actually, again, like, I've been. I've been thinking a lot lately, ever since I left my job, doing a lot of thinking, and. And I was just like, damn, the idea of hidden figures hurts so much, because to think that perhaps you were the catalyst for something, and then nobody remembers your name, nobody gives you the credit, and that's what it feels like. When I'm in the room, I'm thinking, this is gonna be so great for the people who come after. But will anybody remember me? Remember my pain, this moment, this choice I made? And if not, is that okay? Am I all right with it? Am I okay with the sacrifice? And if I'm being totally transparent and honest, I'm not. I'm not okay with it. I don't want to be hidden. I don't want to be forgotten. And, yes, people can say, oh, but how can you be? You're gonna be in the hall of fame, you're this and you're that and people know your name. No, no, no. I want the credit.

[Amanda Doyle]

Of course you do.

[Bozema St. John]

I deserve that.

[Amanda Doyle]

You said that for me. It makes me think about being in those rooms and the temptation of wanting to align and become them and to align with the men, the white men in those rooms. How easy and alluring that is.

[Bozema St. John]

We've talked about that, you know, and.

[Amanda Doyle]

I feel like this is the, this is the real fight, is to resist, to keep resisting the urge in that alignment. How do you do that?

[Bozema St. John]

And then that's what you're doing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

And then that's why it's not working.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, that's why it's that. Yes. Because, look, I think one of the most obvious places, and you know, it happens a lot, it happens every time. But one of the most obvious, I think for everyone who sees it, will understand it was the moment I took the stage of the Apple keynote wwdc, where no other black person, forget black, no other black person had presented the software before. I mean, Steve Jobs, stage right. You've got all of the known people on the stage, Eddie Q. And Craig Federici and Phil Schiller, they're the ones who present, right. And leading up to that moment, first of all, there was a lot of doubt that I should even do it, right? Because look, I'm a marketer. I'm not an engineer, I'm a black woman. Although nobody wants to say that out loud.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, they're like, she's a marketer, not an engineer.

[Abby Wambach]

That's what they're saying.

[Bozema St. John]

Those are the code words.

[Abby Wambach]

And that whole statement about like, oh, I don't know if they'll believe you. Yeah, I know why. But Abby, your point about the allure of just aligning to make things easier, that was my choice that day too, where it's like, look, everybody showed up in their jeans and button down shirt, like a literal visual. I walked into the green room in the back of the stage and there were. It was just a rack of jeans and blue button down shirts and pink button down shirts and khaki colored things. And I just looked at it and I was standing there in my curly afro, my very tight pink dress, my Louboutin stilettos with a little poof on the back too. How dare me, right? A little poof on the back. Just to add insult to injury. And I was standing back there and it was like, you know, Tim Cook went first to start the presentation and then Eddie went. And Eddie is supposed to introduce me. And I'm standing back there, and I was just like, whoo. One of these things is not like the other, you know, waiting for my turn. And when I went on that stage, I. I know it would have been easier for me, too, by the way, if I had just put on the jeans and the button down, If I had just tried to look like everybody else, maybe that would be one less barrier, you know, than even how I appear to be. Not even. I hadn't even opened my mouth yet. I had not even presented one idea yet just how I look. And so for all of us who are showing up in these spaces, of course you just want to align in that little moment of, like, just walking in the door, knowing everybody's gonna turn and look at you. If you didn't have that hair, if you didn't have on that crazy outfit, if you weren't wearing those daggone earrings, if your nails weren't painted a certain way, if you weren't wearing those shoes, clickety clack, clack, clack. Here I come down the hallway. You know I'm coming because you heard my heels clicking. It would be so much easier. But I refuse to do that, because I do know all the people who are walking behind me. I am very aware of that. And it still hurts. Both of those things can be true. So, no, I am not like some, you know, like, humble martyr out here. I want my roses. I want them now. I can. Yes, both can be true that I want it for them, too, but I want mine, you know? And that's why I choose. That's why when I'm sitting there and I'm like, oh, you know what? This ain't right. Let me just. Where's my purse at? Let me just pack my things and get up the hell out of here. Because I recognize that unless I do that, I will be that hidden figure. Nobody will know my name.

[Amanda Doyle]

I love you so much.

[Bozema St. John]

And it's amazing when you think about. I don't know how to put this into words. You will, but like how the corporate world and the whole world uses words that cover the racism and the misogyny. Uses words like professionalism.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Bozema St. John]

When what it really means is whiteness. So. Well, we just want you to wear this. We just want you to talk like this. We just want you to. Because it's professional.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Bozema St. John]

Without dissecting what they're actually saying by professionals.

[Amanda Doyle]

White maleness, not just whiteness. Right.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right. That's right. Or when we are creating strategies Right. Or telling stories, especially as a marketer. Right? That's my whole job, is to create narratives about things. And you have to make it for the mass market. Meaning that my story doesn't matter in it. But how can that be? You know, very early on in my career, I contemplated that. Like, I was like, so how am I supposed to create this narrative for white men when I've never been one? Mm, that's very strange. And I thought, huh, I must be smarter than all the rest of y'all, because if I can do it and you can't tell my story, oh, then I'm very fucking good. Because I could tell my story and yours. Oh, my God. That's where it started from, right? Because I was just like, oh, I could. I see. You're trying to tell me that I'm not as good as you, but actually I'm better because I can do both. You could only do one. And then at some point I was like, oh, but wait, but my story is actually really important too. So then how do I put my story into the thing? You know, how do I add my perspective onto the story to really tell it? It was so interesting how much resistance you can get when you're simply just trying to show up as yourself. It's still surprising to me. Most times I'm just like, but this can't be. Like, you can't really ignore me. Right? You wouldn't be that overt about it. But no, it's true. Yes, we hide it in all the words. No, it's gotta be mass market. It's got hit, you know, the majority. And therefore, your story is not important. Your perspective is not important. Please consider everybody else before yourself. And perhaps that's also what is striking me, because I've been conditioned that that's what I'm supposed to do. Whether it's for the opening the doors for everybody else, consider everybody else but myself. Or in the narrative telling or in the strategy setting, consider everybody else but myself. And I'm just at the point where I'm just like, no, I'm only considering myself.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

How about that?

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, that's what. Because that's what you're doing for the people that come behind you. Like, yes, that's the difference between freaking diversity. Because especially for a woman like you, when they hire you, they say, we want you for your perspective. We want you for your story, we want you for your whatever, of course. And then the second you get there, that's not what they want you for. No, they Want you for their sheets that says we have her.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And to appear to be different, but not actually be different. Yeah, so. And that was another thing that I've realized is that, look, I. I actually really do show up as myself. Really. You know, and so when that happens, people are just like, oh, but wait, I thought you would then just fit into our culture, you know, because our culture is our thing and you're supposed to fit into it. And what's so interesting to me is, although I love the arts, I'm really a science gal, you know, And I'm like, molecules are so interesting. When you think about matter, it's like in any matter, it could be DNA, it could be water, it could be anything. You add a molecule into the matter and the whole matter changes. It doesn't matter what you're talking about. So if you consider that the matter is a culture, whether it's society or it's a company or it's a family, you have matter. And then the one molecule that enters that matter changes is not the same. And so then you've got to contemplate, well, then, if that is true, because it's true in science, if I walk into a corporate culture, I am the molecule. The matter has to change. It's not even a choice. It has to change. So then why would I consider myself insignificant even if I'm just one? Because if you have a glass of water and you drop some red dye into it, regardless of how small that drop is, it changes. It is no longer the same.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

So that little drop can't be insignificant. So I am not insignificant?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Why would I behave that way?

[Bozema St. John]

That's why it's not working.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Bozema St. John]

At the end of the day. Bose is it that a lot of places want to say and get credit for wanting to change, but at the end of the day, that's the last thing that's wanted.

[Amanda Doyle]

They don't want it. They don't want the actual change.

[Abby Wambach]

They don't want the change. They want the change because the change is also too hard. I think they really do want it because we all want things. You know what I mean? We all want things. But just as in the name of this podcast, it's hard. It is hard. Like everything else. I don't think anything is just black and white. I do believe that there is a desire to change. A sincere one, a sincere acknowledgement that, like, oh, yes, okay, no, we are all the same here and we do need to have perspectives that are different. But then that difference comes and it's like, ooh, that's way too different. You just behave a certain way. You know, can you just not say the things? Can you not bring up that story when you're talking, you know, because we don't. That's just. That doesn't fit into the thing we're trying to say.

[Amanda Doyle]

Speaking of hard, I think it's important. What is it like communicating with white women?

[Bozema St. John]

An easy question. That's interesting. What's the hardest part? What is it like of communicating with white women.

[Abby Wambach]

The hardest part about communicating with white women is that they still think we're the same. That somehow that just being women means that we're the same. And that is not true. And again, I think it's like, intellectually we all know that, but practically, do we know that emotionally, do we know that? I don't think so. And so then the idea of our united sort of energy and our united mission falls apart because we're still working inside of a society in which whiteness then is the superior. And so it's like the superiority of the white women experience is completely a giant as compared to mine. And so then mine doesn't really matter. So the individual kind of struggles or other types of challenges that I have because there's so many other connection points in whiteness to white men that I simply don't have. Right. And so you would think, oh, well, look, I have the connection to women regardless of race, and then the white women have the connection to the men because of race. So then they're connected here to the men, and they're connected to me because of woman. So they're connected on two points, and I'm connected on one. I'm dependent on that one. And so I'm already at a disadvantage. And so just understanding that as a literal, practical thing, and that's just the bottom of it. Right. Everything else, like, builds on top of it. But that. That is the most difficult, actually. Getting the understanding, not just intellectually but emotionally, that we're not on the same playing field is very, very difficult.

[Bozema St. John]

And how would that play out? Because again, we're talking about alignment. So white women who say, I'm aligned with you because we're women, you're black, I'm white, but I'm aligned with you. Do you see it throughout work? Throughout.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

That really. The alignment goes the other way, really, when the shit hits the fan, the alignment, white women align with the power.

[Abby Wambach]

With the white men. That's right. With the power. You know, what's a practical one of that? Do you remember in the Obama administration, you probably read this where they said that the women band together to help amplify each other's voices, right. In meetings and whatnot. I thought that was such a beautiful thing. And it has taken root in corporate. Like, you can see it, where women say, okay, we're getting in there. You have an idea. I'm gonna support your idea. You know, it's like. And that's such a beautiful thing. But what is happening also Is that in those situations, it is not just my voice that needs to be heard, but my perspective and my story, which sometimes needs to lead. But I find that white women have a hard time following black women. And so then it's like that whole affirmation, like, ra, ra, ra, let's support each other only is also one direction. So there's the meetings before the meetings, but there are meetings after the meetings, Right? The meetings after the meetings are the ones that are just like, oh, I'm so glad you said that. And, you know, did you hear me when I supported you? And I'm like, so you kind of didn't. You did kind of. You kind of said my idea again. And then they heard you. That's kind of what happened. And it's like, oh, no, no, no. But we still got the. We still got the point across. Like, we, the women, we said the thing and we made the point. And I'm like, no, no, no. It was my thing. And then you took it and made it yours. And then you came back and said, oh, it's ours. Nobody remembers it. I said it because you said it. But that's the thing. It's like, again, I'm just like, ah. You know, it's like sometimes you just feel so frustrated because I'm just like, where is my voice? You know, it's like, yes, we are going further because the woman's story went forward, but it was taken forward by the white woman, and she didn't even acknowledge me.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And so then it's like, okay, well, here I am again by my damn.

[Amanda Doyle]

Self, having to be the kind of jerk afterwards in that post meeting going, actually, no, you stole my idea. That wasn't ours. And that makes you feel like a jerk, but, like, you're still having to do it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. And by the way, everybody thinks you're a bitch.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

You know how many times I've been called arrogant, selfish, a bitch? You know how many times? All the time. And I'm like, no, I'm not selfish. Not a bitch. I'm just asking to be acknowledged.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm just asking to be seen. That's is the lowest of things. I'm asking for the lowest. I didn't even ask you to call me a genius, which I fucking am.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

I just asked you to see me. That's it. That's it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Low bars here.

[Abby Wambach]

Now. I'm selfish. You know what I mean? Because I said, oh, no, it wasn't your idea. It was my idea. Oh, no. This is teamwork, though. Oh, really? Because you seem to be the only one in the team.

[Amanda Doyle]

You got to tell, you got to.

[Bozema St. John]

Talk about, share this. I just feel like people are going to feel so, so well. I was actually thinking about share the mic because when you said, is anyone hearing my story? That's what I remember you saying to me is you said, I'll never forget one sentence. You said, I'm just. I'm screaming into the wind. I'm screaming into the wind. I said, how are you? Or something, and you said, I'm just. I'm screaming, but I'm. No one's hearing me. I'm screaming into the wind.

[Abby Wambach]

Glennon, can we also pause just there for a second? Because that moment also just needs to be acknowledged, because when you and I talked, you said the thing that most white women don't say. You know, you were like, how do I. How do I help your voice? And I said, I was just like, oh, shit. She want to know how to help amplify my voice. It literally knocked me off my feet, you know, because I was just like, man, I've been in so many environments, conversations with very well meaning people. Again, I don't think everything is black and white. Things are very great, you know, people who mean well, they want to help and all that, but they just take your voice and then they put theirs on it and it changes. Then it's out and you can't get it back, you know? But what you said in that moment is what then led me to say, I feel like I'm just screaming into the wind. Nobody hears me. Then it was like, it almost became an easy solution after that.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, it did.

[Abby Wambach]

It was like, of course, of course, of course. You should just be heard. How do I put you on the platform so you can be heard that. But it was. It was such a fundamentally different question from everybody else, you know, so we have to acknowledge that that was not just because I answered, but because you asked the question.

[Bozema St. John]

And then that was a question that led to so low, so many questions. Because then you and Levy. Yeah, right. You and Levi came back and were like, you had a hole, you guys, in the, like, 12 minutes. You had a whole plan. Do you remember what happened next?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, man, this is when I feel like this. The ancestors or the spirits who are not yet here, they're the ones who are waiting. They just all came through. It really does not feel like, you know, our idea is just, you know, conduit, right, to let it be born, because it just felt that easy. It was like, as soon as we just stopped, you asked the question. It was like a portal being opened. You asked the question. We went back, we were like, okay, because I was exhausted again, frankly. Honestly, I was just exhausted. I was like, I want to talk to nobody. You. Y'all can keep talking. I'm be sitting over here resting my vocal cords. And from that moment, it was like, look, okay, let's figure out, like, how do we open up our contact lists and find the white women who have these enormous platforms? And how do we get them off of there? Yeah, how do we get them off?

[Amanda Doyle]

That's good.

[Abby Wambach]

We don't need them saying our thing. How do we get them out, though? But we still want their platform. And it was amazing to think that all we had to do was ask.

[Bozema St. John]

Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

Ask the right people who are willing to say, oh, okay, let me just move over. And again, I don't want to pretend like that was an easy thing either, because, look, I feel like Instagram or social media platforms, to some degree, feel even more sacred to people than their own homes.

[Bozema St. John]

Isn't that interesting?

[Abby Wambach]

You invite somebody over to your house to look in your fridge much quicker than you would say, oh, go ahead and just say whatever you want on my Instagram. What if they say something crazy? What if they say something you don't like? What if they say something that's offensive? You don't know what that person's gonna say. How scary is that? The bravery on both sides of this incredible movement that we made of white women being brave and vulnerable enough to say, look, I'm gonna get out the way. Here are the keys to the house. You just do whatever you want. And then the bravery and tirelessness of black women who were saying, okay, I'm gonna say it one more time. I'm gonna say the truth. And I'm gonna be unafraid of what people are gonna say about me. Cause they don't know me. They might judge me. I'm going to say it anyway. And, ooh, let me tell you, even for me, right? Somebody who's. I'm out. I'm talking. I'm saying the things. And all of the work that was going into creating this movement. I remember I called Lovey. It was like we had told everybody, everybody to go online at, like, noon or something like that. And I swear to you, it was like 11:55, and I called Lavina Panic, and I was like, oh, shh. I forgot. I'm supposed to do it, too.

[Bozema St. John]

I remember that.

[Abby Wambach]

I totally forgot. I completely forgot. But somehow that completely Escaped me. And then I was just like, how am I gonna do that? I'm so tired. I don't even know what I'm gonna say. I didn't even started thinking about it. And then I got afraid. I was like, what if I say the wrong thing? There's so much expectation, like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I was worried about my outfit, forgot what I was gonna say. And then after I was done saying what I want to say, I fell out, exhausted, completely drained. And so I continuously think about that too. When we're, you know, I think about, like, the corporate settings or these business settings where it's like, it takes so much energy to show up, to say the thing, bravely, to go back outside of that space and still continue without laying down and taking a break. You got to do that day after day after day after day. It is a miracle that we're still able to do this.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, I. Look, I had to give myself a pep talk the other day. I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, girl, you are just a miracle. You are a miracle. Like, the fact that you are where you are from, where you came from, withstanding what you've been through, it is a miracle that you're here smiling, with that clear ass melanin skin of yours, looking as good as you do, having a happy spirit, raising an incredible daughter, being an awesome friend. You're a miracle. So go ahead, keep your head up.

[Bozema St. John]

Speaking of miracles, can we talk about that daughter of yours? I think, you know, Instagram land is really big on love stories, and we as a culture tend to value most the romantic ones. But I swear to God, I have goosebumps already. And you all don't know what I'm gonna say, but I'm just saying that the love story of you and Lael has got to be one of the most beautiful ones being told right now. I mean, and for those of you who don't know, you'll have to go. We'll put all the links to Bose's social so you can see all of her genius, but also see this love she has. Just tell us about Lael and what are even like right now from where you are in the world and what are your dreams for her?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, Lael, I don't even know where to start with that, you know? Cause Lael is my rainbow baby. I lost a daughter before Lael. Eve. My first. And I lost her the day she was born, which was just devastating and crushing. That's to Put it mildly. And three months after I lost Eve, I was like, I want to have another baby. I want to be pregnant. My doctor was like, are you out of your mind? Sit your ass down and let your body heal. And I was like, no, I'm determined. No, this is what I want. This is what I want. And the thing is that, like, maybe looking back now is again, maybe reaction to trauma, right? Feeling like, ooh, I was supposed to be a mom. And then I'm not a mom. So now I gotta be a mom. I'm gonna do everything in my power to do that. As soon as I got pregnant, I was terrified. Like, sheer. I'm talking about, like, sheer terror. Trying to think of every way to get out. Like, okay, I made a mistake again. Like, I made a mistake. It's my fault. I wasn't supposed to do this. I don't know why I did it, okay? But I held on and held on and held on. Lael was born 2 1/2 months early. And I prayed every single day of my pregnancy and every single moment of my labor that she would be born alive, breathing, kicking, crying, anything. And I promised God, I was like, if she lived, that I would name her for him. As I said, La El, meaning belonging to God. And she was born on May 29, 2009, same day as my sister Elua. Yes. Ailua's birthday. And the doctor had prepped both Peter and I that because she was premature, because they'd given me a bunch of steroids to help her lungs develop so she could breathe. That's. Unfortunately, what happened to Eve was that she just couldn't breathe. And he said, she's probably not gonna make a sound. You won't be able to hold her. We're gonna deliver her, and then she's gonna go. So just be prepared for that. And Lael came out like lightning. You know, it was like a crack in the. In the air. She's like, wow.

[Amanda Doyle]

Scream.

[Abby Wambach]

And I. I mean, I was in such awe of her in that moment. I was like, I've delivered a warrior. A real. Like a real life warrior. And I refused to let them take her because I was just like, oh, no, no, no, she's fine. And when I tell you I did one of those like in the movies, you know, where you just reach down and grab the kid. That's what I did.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, my God.

[Abby Wambach]

I was like, now she's mine. Ripped her right out of my womb, put her on my chest. Took in the scent of her, her heartbeat, the thin, translucent Skin that she had and felt every inch of her. She was not bigger than one palm, but I felt it, all of it. And in the months that followed, you know, she was in the hospital for a while. I prayed every day. She came home right before her due date. And I thought, now I'm responsible for this warrior. To show her the way, to make her understand that her life is such a gift, you know, that she was so wanted, so needed, not just for, like, my own salvation and belief and faith, but that she is here for such a great purpose. I mean, we all are. But I believe it for her. I know she's destined for something great. I don't know what that is, and I won't try to force it. Whatever the path is, I will follow it. Because there was no math that says she should be here, but yet she is. And so my hope is that she's just going to walk in her destiny and fulfill it.

[Bozema St. John]

Well, we started this interview with you saying there's no math that says that you should be here where you are in this world. There is also no math that says the little warrior should be where she is. And yet you both are freaking warriors. Gorgeous warriors. A beautiful love story. When the urgent life is ready, will you come back here, please, to tell us the story? I just cannot wait, Boaz. I cannot wait. Please send me that book as soon as it's ready.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, I will. I will. And you already know, it's like, you know, the process of writing is so, so difficult. But this was. It's been a long time coming, you know, And I was ready. The moment I sat down, I was ready. I wasn't ready a moment before that, but as soon as I sat down, it was like everything just started coming. And so I'm telling all of it, you know, all of the pain, all of the triumph, all of the. All the things.

[Bozema St. John]

What a gift, Bose.

[Amanda Doyle]

Nobody will ever forget your name.

[Bozema St. John]

That is for Daniel.

[Abby Wambach]

You are unforgettable.

[Amanda Doyle]

Thank you for being with us and sharing your story, and please come back.

[Bozema St. John]

And the next right thing for all of you pod squatters is just to go back and listen again. And then pretend when Bose is giving her pep talks to herself, that it's for you because you are also a miracle.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right.

[Bozema St. John]

All right, Bose, go do all of your million important, hard things. We love you forever. We will always be in the corner and lay elves.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you.

[Bozema St. John]

We will talk soon. Thank you for this and the rest.

[Abby Wambach]

Of you, thank you so much.

[Bozema St. John]

Carry on, warriors. Bye. If this podcast means something to you. It would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss a episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. Much We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

[Abby Wambach]

SA.