(BEST OF) Pet Love: The Closest We Come to Unconditional Love?

Summary

Podcast Summary: (BEST OF) Pet Love: The Closest We Come to Unconditional Love?

We Can Do Hard Things – Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle

Date: June 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

This heartwarming and hilarious episode brings back a favorite: the exploration of "pet love" as perhaps our closest communion with unconditional love. Glennon Doyle, her wife Abby Wambach, and her sister Amanda Doyle share deeply personal and relatable stories about the animals in their lives—from dogs to a newly beloved hamster. Through listener calls, confessions, and musings, they celebrate the everyday magic and absurdity of loving pets, discussing how animals disrupt our routines, expand our hearts, comfort our sadness, create absurd family rituals, and teach us about presence, joy, grief, and the wild power of ordinary love.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of "Pet Love" in Our Lives

• Glennon, Abby, and Amanda open up about how pets have cracked open their hearts during hard times and acted as anchors to the present moment.
  • “Sometimes, when everything feels too big, the thing that brings us back to ourselves is very small… A creature who needs us to stop spiraling long enough to feed them, walk them, hold them, laugh at them, and remember, oh, I am still here. I am still capable of love.” — Glennon (00:13)
• They pose the central question: Are beloved animals the closest we come to unconditional love? Their resounding answer: “Yes.”

2. Amanda’s Journey to Becoming a Dog Person

• Amanda recounts her initial resistance to getting a dog—describing herself as a "Type A, spreadsheet religion" person barely keeping up with her own life.
  • “If you’d ever told me I would intentionally elect to cohabitate with an animal, except under, like, resigned duress, I’d say you have me confused with someone a little easy breezy.” — Amanda (08:03)
• A series of "signs" (neighbor suggestions, kids’ persistence, and family traditions) eventually lead her family to adopt Seamus, a golden retriever.
• The adoption process, filled with home inspections, references, and nervousness, felt “like dating.”
• Seamus ends up melting Amanda’s heart and bringing surprising delight:
  • “It feels more like a reason to go play in the pool…somehow when you add lovely, soul-affirming things to your life, it makes the rest of it less heavy.” — Amanda (14:05)

3. What Animals Teach Us: Essential Selves and Presence

• Amanda’s therapist highlights the “armor” we all wear, but animals live as their “essential selves.” This transparency in pets is magnetic and healing.
  • “He is just his essential being all the time…there’s no armor. And that is disarming.” — Amanda (15:35)
• Abby & Sissy chime in about the unique ability of pets to interrupt life—both for good (forcing us into play or presence) and occasionally for chaos (peeing, messes).
  • “They are a walking invitation, a walking reminder to play and to rest and to get fresh air.” — Abby (24:10)
• Pets love us for our being—not for our productivity.
  • “The dogs are the only beings that I feel love me more the less I do.” — Abby (24:06)

4. The Absurd Joys and Rituals of Family Pets

• Detailed and funny tales about family pets: Honey the French bulldog (the “unrequited love” object), Hattie the golden doodle (“spreading love everywhere”), and Seamus (“spreadsheet-ruiner”).
• The spreadsheet metaphor: Despite all the effort and expense, the “deposits” animals make aren't quantifiable but make the answer always yes.
  • “There’s nothing quantifiable, nothing makes sense about the spreadsheet, but just their being and their delight make it a resounding yes, even though the spreadsheet says no.” — Amanda (25:38)

5. Pets as Disruptors & Companions in Grief and Growth

• The Hamster Saga: Tish persuades the family to adopt a hamster, Biscuit. Despite previous anti-rodent stances, the family bonds over the absurd rituals (like bath bonding time).
• These creatures become both “grand animals” and vehicles for unexpected family growth and unity.

6. Presence and Spiritual Lessons from Pets

• Animals cement families and anchor individuals into presence. They help children (and adults) practice for grief, experience joy, and find company in loneliness.
• Glennon ties in spiritual wisdom:
  • “There’s no spiritual tradition that at the heart of it doesn’t say, the way is presence… And dogs and animals, that’s what they’re forcing us into: loving presence.” — Abby (44:09)
• “Bring your presence back to this moment because I’m licking your face… I need you to pull on this rope. None of these other things matter.” — Amanda (45:05)

7. The Reality and Grief of Loving Animals

• Listeners call in with their love for their pets and concerns about loss, asking how to handle the inevitability of grieving a beloved animal.
• The Pod Squad dives deep into pet loss as "death in training," helping families and children learn to grieve and honor loss.
  • “We do not love because it lasts forever…We love because the process of loving something changes us.” — Abby (52:31)
  • “Maybe that love doesn’t even really ever end.” — Sissy (53:00)

8. Pets, Mental Health, and the Healing Power of Non-Judgment

• Listener Kelsey shares how adopting kittens helped her recover from career burnout and eating disorder struggles.
• Glennon and Abby affirm the unique safety of pet love, unconditioned by appearance or societal judgments.
  • “Dogs are the only beings or animals who don’t… Dogs have not been affected by the world in ways that make them treat me in certain ways that makes me feel unsafe.” — Abby (61:10)
• Pets bring us back to the basics: eat, play, rest.

9. The Untaming Spirit and Children’s Empathy

• Listener story: A child visits the zoo, asks “Where are their mommies?” and incites a “toddler uprising”—an illustration of untamed empathy and natural justice (“raising their little troublemaker hand, asking the tough questions”).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Dogs will destroy your capitalistic productivity religion.” — Abby (26:09)
• “They put the ‘be’ in being.” — Sissy (26:41)
• “Do not ask your children to strive for extraordinary lives… Make the ordinary come alive for them. The extraordinary will take care of itself.” — Amanda, quoting William Martin (44:45)
• “Maybe the pet is the center—the dog is the center. Because every kid gets what they need. The dog turns out to be the center of the wheel.” — Abby (56:23)
• On grieving pets: “For me, it’s an opportunity to resist [replacement and avoidance] and trust—show them ritual, give a container to grief... we sit and we don’t know together, and we feel sad together.” — Abby (54:00)
• “Ask the hard questions this week. Raise your little toddler hand. Find the moments of ordinary and let the extraordinary take care of itself with your tiny little furry or scaled or feathered friends.” — Amanda (65:14)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:13 – Glennon sets up the theme: pets as anchors in overwhelming times.
• 08:03 – Amanda’s former anti-pet stance—“You have me confused with someone easy breezy.”
• 11:42 – Amanda unexpectedly becomes obsessed with Seamus.
• 15:35 – Amanda on pets as “essential selves,” stripping away armor.
• 24:06-24:47 – Abby on dogs loving her “more the less I do.”
• 25:38 – Amanda on pets ruining the “religion of the spreadsheet.”
• 31:10–35:38 – The Absurdity of pet rituals & hamster bonding.
• 44:09–45:05 – Presence as the spiritual lesson from animals.
• 52:31 – Loving despite impermanence: “We do not love because it lasts forever.”
• 61:10 – Pets are a judgment-free safe place, especially for those recovering from trauma.
• 64:22–65:14 – Final listener story and closing wisdom: embrace the ordinary, ask hard questions.

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Episode Tone & Style

Warm, lively, vulnerable, and humorous—filled with self-deprecating wit, gentle teasing, nostalgia, and a lot of gushy, sincere love for the non-human "people" in their families.

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For Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In...

This episode is a must-listen for anyone who has ever loved a pet or wondered why pets matter so much. The hosts dig into the real, sometimes messy, always magical relationships we have with animals, how they hold our families together, heal our hearts, and teach us about loving, living, and letting go. From dog pee stories to child-driven hamster negotiations, the episode laughs, cries, and reflects its way through what it really means to do “hard things”—sometimes with four legs and fur.

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“We Can Do Hard Things” is an independent production by Treat Media. Subscribe and join the Pod Squad for more raw, uplifting conversations.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

Hello, beautiful Pod Squad. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. We are bringing back this conversation today because so many of us are walking around with our hearts just cracked open,

[Amanda]

trying to stay awake, trying to stay

[Glennon Doyle]

useful, trying not to go numb. And sometimes, when everything feels too big, the thing that brings us back to ourselves is very small. A little paw on our lap, a face waiting at the door. A creature who needs us to stop spiraling long enough to feed them, walk them, hold them, laugh at them, and remember, oh, I am still here. I am still capable of love. Today we are talking about pet love and whether our beloved animals are the closest we come to unconditional love. I think the answer is yes. I talk about how Seamus arrived in my life and ruined my religion of the spreadsheet. Glennon talks about why Honey and Hattie are the only quote people. People who truly understand her and what each of them teaches her about love. And Abby tells us how Tish's hamster biscuit somehow snuck past every boundary and straight into her heart. This one is funny and tender and absurd. So today, let's love the world. Let's love ourselves and be loved by the beings who ask almost nothing from us except presents, snacks, and. And the good spot on the couch.

[Abby]

Hello to our favorite people in all the world. You.

[Leah (caller)]

How do.

[Sissy]

You just burped.

[Abby]

Okay, our dogs are here, so bear with us a little bit. There is a reason for that. There is a reason that our dogs are crawling on our lap right now. Here's what we're talking about today. As many of you may have noticed, Sister. Hi.

[Leah (caller)]

Sissy.

[Amanda]

Hi.

[Abby]

Has been on a mission, I feel like, since we started this podcast. I think Sister has been on a serious spiritual mission since this podcast began.

[Tish]

Yeah.

[Sissy]

We're talking about everything.

[Abby]

Yeah. We have forced her. We're forcing her to talk about her life.

[Sissy]

Yep. To diagnose and treat our own selves.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's.

[Abby]

It is a whole thing when you have to start digging in. And anyway, Sister decided along the way that she would like to have more life in her life.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Abby]

This is a question. Where is the life in our lives? Sister decided that she might. Even her achieving Type A Alpha self would also like to have some delight and joy.

[Amanda]

Yeah, right.

[Abby]

Am I saying that correctly? Well, I mean, no, I'm not.

[Amanda]

I think it's just. It's less, like, aspirational and more just desperation. More just like. It's not working for me. So what am. Am I desperate enough to consider alternatives? Because. Yes, because I might. I might have reached the bottom of the where this particular life is going to take.

[Abby]

Okay, so, you know, on this podcast, that's fair. We are less inspirational and aspirational and more. Desperational.

[Amanda]

Desperation. Hashtag. Desperation.

[Abby]

Hashtag. We are less committed to wellness and more committed to just less dying slowly inside.

[Amanda]

It's less.

[Abby]

Yeah, okay.

[Amanda]

It's just that's.

[Abby]

But you felt open. Open to possible avenues of more delight. Would you say that you felt your little Grinch heart preparing to expand three sizes?

[Amanda]

Yeah, I thought, you know, clearly the calculations that I've made heretofore have only gotten me heretofore. So I am open to the idea that maybe out of an abundance of data suggesting there might be another way.

[Kelsey (caller)]

Okay. Okay. Right.

[Abby]

Okay. So at that point, here we are going along on our lives, and then your whole family comes to our family in California for the holidays for two weeks. Right. And what I would say about your children when they arrive.

[Amanda]

What would you say about my children?

[Abby]

Well, one thing that I would say about my unbelievably fantastic niece and nephew are that when they see our dogs.

[Leah (caller)]

Yeah.

[Abby]

All they do is lose their little damn minds for two weeks. Hattie, who is our little goldendoodle type dog, is. Is thrilled by this. She has people to play with her. It's just so happy. Honey, our French bulldog, well, she feels otherwise.

[Sissy]

Oh, maybe. I mean, I think that she's more

[Amanda]

just like reigning queen. Like, she's like, I grace you with my presence.

[Sissy]

She's also smaller than Hattie. So you can pick Honey up. And so this is where Alice and Bobby, they'll just. They'll take her. They'll maneuver her. They play with her as if she's the not live dog. More like she's a doll.

[Abby]

Right. And then so we watch. So Honey's on depression. Watch when they're here.

[Sissy]

She's getting poked and prodded for a couple weeks. She loves it, though.

[Amanda]

But just so everyone understands the context, like, my kids are so obsessed with your animals that we bought Alice a special locket a couple of years ago, and I told her she could pick any member of the family, any family picture she wanted to put in there, any. Anything that made her the happiest, and she unequivocally and very quickly said, oh, I will have a picture of Honey. So the bulldog and anything in life that brought her joy and made her feel connected and loved, and she picked your dog. So now she has a locket with your dog in it.

[Sissy]

Amazing.

[Abby]

And so when you were here, we ended up talking a lot about the possibility of one day you all getting a dog. And, and you've always felt open. Well, you felt a teeny bit open to it because John's. Your husband has been raised, was raised with German shepherds and dogs. But I think you had this real feeling that you're still in the chaos of young children. Like the chaos, the freaking dripping with children. No minutes, no bodily autonomy, no sanity moments. And tell us how you felt about the idea of adding a dog to your family.

[Amanda]

Well, it felt like, you know, someone who's doggy paddling just to stay afloat, about to drown, and then say you handed them a dog. And that's how it felt. It felt like, oh, good, so I'm barely making it. Why don't you put a dog on top of my, you know, not so buoyant body? But that's how I felt. But I, I did feel resigned to it because it was probably our third date. The first time that I had met John's mom and she, the first thing she said to me was, well, Amanda, I hope you know that if you marry John, you're going to have to have a dog. Like, it was like out of the gate. So. Wow.

[Sissy]

I think.

[Amanda]

Oh, it was meant in like just love. Of course.

[Sissy]

Leading with that, though. I'm just saying like, that, that's like a, that's like a non negotia.

[Amanda]

Yeah, it has felt like that. So I was kind of resigned to it. But if you would ever have told me that I would, you know, intentionally elect to cohabitate with an animal except under like resigned duress.

[Abby]

Right.

[Amanda]

I would tell you, you have me confused with someone who is a little easy breezy. So it didn't feel so much like an election. It just kind of, kind of felt like, well, that has to happen. What happened was I, I kept telling my kids, since they were two, oh, eventually, in a few years. In a few years when you're old enough. And at one point, maybe when they were quite young, I said, apparently to Bobby, when you're 10. Because it felt millions of miles away.

[Abby]

Exactly.

[Amanda]

But then, unfortunately, what happened was he is nine and a half right now and he reminded me of that. So don't. It was coming.

[Abby]

Note to listeners who have young children, you never put a number on a promise.

[Sissy]

Yes.

[Abby]

You keep it ambiguous. You are not going in five minutes. You're not going to be there in five minutes. You're not going to get a dog when they're 10. You're not. You, you're going to do it sometime, right?

[Sissy]

Maybe sometime.

[Abby]

Maybe some time.

[Tish]

Maybe.

[Amanda]

We'll see.

[Abby]

We'll see. We'll see means hell to the no, right? Okay, but I feel this like, little creaking of the dog door open. Because I can see a little bit with you. When I see a little. You're usually a yes or a hell no. So when I see any wavering, I feel, oh, there's hope. There's hope.

[Sissy]

Hell hath no fury like Glennon Doyle, whom witch has now found a little slice of a door ajar.

[Amanda]

I believe the door was a tiny bit of jar. And I'm like, okay, it's happening. Because if not now, when? It's not me, who?

[Kelsey (caller)]

Right?

[Amanda]

So it's out there. It's out there. It's coming. So it's time. It's not like they're going to be seniors in high school. We're going to be like, well, now you get a dog, right? So, so we. We started actually talking about it. And then my sweet neighbor, who's amazing, who. She found me my kids therapist. She found me their, like, educational diagnostic people. She found me my therapist. She just like the. She giveth unto me good things and

[Abby]

she brings a lot to the table. God, I love friends like that. You just know. You can call them and they're going to know everything and they're just like,

[Amanda]

with a light hand. But just, you know, I'm struggling with this, okay, I got your person and I'm going to help you out. And so she texts me out of the blue. She knows nothing about the context and. And she says, I have the perfect dog for your family.

[Abby]

So this is the moment where you think, if you're waiting for a sign, here's a sign. Okay?

[Amanda]

And of course, because what I do in those situations where I'm given signs is I say, look, an eagle. And I try to run in the other direction.

[Abby]

I know, you called me and you're like, my friend said, I have the perfect dog for you. What do you think? I'm like, what do you mean, what do I think? What are you waiting for the dog to actually arrive in your bed with a bow around it? Like, yes, this is the sign.

[Amanda]

So I ignored that text from her. And then like a week later, she said, are you just gonna ignore the text where I said, I have the perfect dog for you. And so I said, okay, tell me about the dog. So she fosters and love, love and so many shout outs to all of the doggy foster people in the world. I mean, it's such a beautiful gift to. To protect these little ones after their, you know, going through these big transitions. So she is fostering this dog. She loves this dog. She thinks he's perfect for our family. We say, okay, can we meet the dog? We meet the dog. We start spending a lot of time with the dog.

[Sissy]

It's like a relationship.

[Amanda]

It is, it is.

[Sissy]

You're dating so cute.

[Amanda]

And I become, much to my surprise, utterly obsessed with the dog. I love him. I love him so much. We go through this whole process where we try to adopt him. I am sweating so much. I am. I have to write a letter to the.

[Abby]

You have to have a home study adoption.

[Amanda]

A home study to come to my house. I make my kids. I'm like, be normal. Don't no one be weird. Everyone act the way loving normal people would act.

[Kelsey (caller)]

I'm.

[Amanda]

I'm so nervous. And we do the whole thing and they ask us lots of questions. They referrals. They call.

[Abby]

Oh, my God.

[Amanda]

Yeah, they have to like, call for character references.

[Abby]

Who did you use character references? Did you have neighbors or like. Because no one called me.

[Sissy]

Nobody called us.

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah. So I. Yeah, a friend and a neighbor used. And then they said yes.

[Abby]

And now who do you have?

[Amanda]

Now we have Seamus, the golden retriever. He is one year and seven months old. He is so precious. He had an original owner that could not care for him anymore. And so then he went to my neighbor's house and then he came here, and he is. Is amazing. I love him.

[Abby]

And so we have both seen flashes of delight in you since this little dog came. Can you tell us? Because actually, because I think we wait until our lives are under control to add absurd, delightful things. We think joy, absurdity, delight, unproductive. Just nonsense is for when everything else is under control. So we have that feeling where we're like, I'm treading water. I can't add a dog. But it didn't end up feeling like somebody put a dog in your hands while you were trying to not to drown. What does it feel more like?

[Amanda]

I mean, it feels more like

[Kelsey (caller)]

a

[Amanda]

reason to go play in the pool. Oh, you know, it just feels. It feels. This is. It reminds me of the friendship episode when it's like, who the hell has time for friends when you don't even have time for the bazillion things in your life and it's all too much and it's like, oh, wait, no. That's exactly why we need friendship. Because somehow when you add lovely, soul affirming things to Your life, it makes the rest of it less heavy. Yeah.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Amanda]

So. And I just feel like. I don't know. It's so interesting at therapy yesterday, and my therapist was talking about how we as people, it's like we each have these essential selves, but then we have all this armor we put around us. And then the people in our lives, they have their essential selves, but then they have all the armor. So when we're bumping into those people, it's just armor bumping into armor. Like, we're never, like, getting to the essential. And I realized. I'm sure there was a bigger lesson for me in my life for it, but I just kept thinking about Seamus, and I'm like, that's it. That's what's so mad. He is just his essential being all the time. He's just what? He is just going about being exactly who he is at all times. And it's silly and nonsensical, but. But there's no armor around any of it. And that is disarming.

[Sissy]

Yes.

[Amanda]

It puts you in a different place. And I think there's certain people like this in our lives, but very, very rare. Like, Abby, I actually think you are, of all the people I know, the most, regularly, essentially, yourself. Like, I think that's what is so magnetic about you. Like, that's why you're irresistible to anyone around you, is because you are your essential being all a vast majority of the time. And I think it's just there's. I think, animals and the very rare people like that that we interact with. It's just so magnetic, because maybe that's

[Sissy]

why I connect so well with dogs.

[Abby]

Maybe. I don't know.

[Sissy]

I'm just joking. I think that, like, that's such a beautiful point to see, because, you know, dogs, to me, have. Or pets have this unique ability to interrupt what's going on in your life and. And both good and bad. Right. Like, there's some times where I'm pissed that honey, like, peed on the wood, the floor.

[Abby]

She does pee a lot.

[Sissy]

But, like, at the end of the day, the interruption is almost always, like, really welcomed.

[Abby]

Yeah. Because whatever else you were worrying about or doing was kind of bullshit.

[Sissy]

And, like, they don't talk to you. So you have to actually create this dialogue of, like, what they're thinking, what you think their experience is. That's what I do. I'm like, oh, she's cold.

[Abby]

All we do is talk about what they're thinking. And for sure they're not thinking any of the things.

[Sissy]

She's feeling this.

[Abby]

Yeah, look at her. She's so mad at us that we left.

[Leah (caller)]

Look at her.

[Abby]

She's so, so.

[Sissy]

She's so sad. Look at her. Oh, my God. Hattie just looked at us in this really funny, sad way.

[Amanda]

I the projection of emotions on the dogs is hilarious. John walked in the other day, that was on the floor. I'm so worried about, you know, Seamus's emotional stability, and it's because he got left after a year and a half of his life. So I'm on the floor saying,

[Glennon Doyle]

we're

[Amanda]

never gonna leave you. You have a home here forever. You can just lay down that burden of worry about. And John walks in and he's like, yeah, you've never had dogs before.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Tish]

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[Abby]

When Craig and I got Theo from the shelter, Theo now lives right with Craig down the street, also our dog. We went and found Theo. The and Theo we knew belonged to us, but then we had to leave because they had to do all the checks. And then they told me, we need another day because we're going to clean him all up. Do you remember this?

[Kelsey (caller)]

Oh, yes.

[Abby]

You were so upset and I was so upset. Don't you clean him first? I don't want him to learn that he has to be like, fancy and clean before his family takes him. We will take him down dirty.

[Amanda]

Thank you.

[Sissy]

That's right.

[Abby]

And then we went and got him and we were like, ew, why didn't

[Sissy]

you guys clean them?

[Abby]

And now with Honey and Hattie, I just feel strongly that both of these dogs are the only people who truly understand me.

[Sissy]

People, by the way.

[Abby]

And also they have taught me. They teach me everything about unconditional love. Okay.

[Sissy]

Oh, yeah.

[Abby]

Because in different ways. All right. Hattie, the golden doodle thing, Amazing.

[Amanda]

She's.

[Abby]

I'm staring at her right now. She teaches me about unconditional love because she loves everyone unconditionally. It doesn't matter, like if you've been gone for one second or a week. It doesn't matter if you're. She just is in so much love, so much affection. Just her energy is, I love you. I love you, I love you. And so I learned how to be unconditionally loved from her. And with Honey the bulldog, I learn how to love something unconditionally. Who doesn't give a crap about me.

[Amanda]

It's like it's a gift of unrequited love.

[Abby]

It is. It's like she really only loves me because I'm warm.

[Sissy]

It's conditioned.

[Abby]

The conditions are, are you a warm body, like.

[Amanda]

Like temperature wise? Exactly.

[Abby]

Just like, do you have sweatpants on that are soft and cozy?

[Amanda]

What are you bringing to the table, Doyle?

[Abby]

That's it. Or are you. Do you have food for me?

[Sissy]

Do you feed me?

[Abby]

Other than that, she's a cat, so I have to learn how to love her unconditionally. Not based on how she treats me. So it's like absolute opposites, but they're both teaching me. And the one thing that I'll say that I appreciate so much about dogs is that in this world where it feels like I'm always earning my worthiness based on how much I do, how busy I am, what I can give you, whatever, how we all feel, what I'm bringing to the table, what I've done for you lately, that feeling of I always have to be producing to feel like I have, you know, earned my right to exist on the earth. The dogs are the only beings that I feel love me more the less I do.

[Sissy]

Oh, yeah. Well, because you're sitting on the couch.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Sissy]

Whenever you're on the couch, they're right there.

[Abby]

Their best day. For me, they're heaven. They're like, you're the best dog mom in the entire world. Would be if I sort of woke up. Not really. Didn't shower, sat back on the couch, didn't move all day, and then went to bed again. That would be their. This is the best person in the unit. And there's something that is so healing about this. Like, they are a walking invitation, a walking reminder to play and to rest and to get fresh air.

[Amanda]

Right. Cause they're going. Right. Because your couch story assumes that Abby is taking them out for a walk at that point.

[Abby]

That's right.

[Kelsey (caller)]

But.

[Amanda]

But it's true. And I do. I get it. It's because I feel like as a person who lives by a spreadsheet and where it's hard to stop or slow down, I feel like what Seamus is proving is that nonsensical things are important. Like when you actually do the spreadsheet, when you're like, okay, their food and care costs many, many dollars low.

[Abby]

So many dollars.

[Amanda]

They require a commitment of a lot of time and structure and planning the. And then unlike the deposits column.

[Abby]

Oh, God.

[Amanda]

There's like, nothing quantifiable, nothing makes sense about the spreadsheet, but just their Being. And they're just kind of the delight that they offer makes it just a resounding yes, even though the spreadsheet says no. So my religion of the spreadsheet and there being logical, quantifiable things, it kind of ruins my religion because I'm like, this thing doesn't make any damn sense, but yet I need it very much.

[Abby]

Dogs will destroy your capitalistic productivity religion.

[Sissy]

I think that, like, what is so valuable to me about a dog is that they constantly are this mirror of, like, oh, just be here. Right. Like, they're not living in their past. They're not living in their future. They're just, like, right here, right now, all the time. And, like, yes, sometimes it's annoying when they, like, want something right now, but at the end of the day, it's,

[Tish]

like, such a good for me.

[Sissy]

They put the be in the being. Like, they do. They're just, like, right here, right now, all the time. And that is when I'm at my happiest.

[Abby]

And then cats.

[Sissy]

Oh, don't get me started with this.

[Abby]

Listen, so Abby does not appreciate a cat.

[Sissy]

I'm allergic. I'm allergic to cats.

[Abby]

She just says she is. So we definitely can't get one.

[Sissy]

No, I'm very allergic to cats.

[Abby]

Okay, well, the cat dander makes me sneeze. Are you physically or spiritually allergic?

[Sissy]

Physically.

[Abby]

Okay. So I appreciate a cat. Okay. And I think it's because in life, Abby's more of a dog. But cats, they are badass with their boundaries. They are not trying to please anybody. Right. We had cats growing up.

[Tish]

They're always judging.

[Abby]

They're always looking exactly.

[Sissy]

And judging me. And all I want to do is be like, what?

[Amanda]

Cats are the loveies. They're the lovies of the animals.

[Kelsey (caller)]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Do better people.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Kelsey (caller)]

Better. Yes.

[Abby]

And I appreciate that. So they're not trying to please, but they're also cozy.

[Amanda]

We.

[Abby]

We grew up with cat after cat after cat. Do you remember when Gummy Gumdrop, I got to name that cat. So she had a litter of kittens in my closet, and something happened. Gumdrop decided not to feed one of them. It was like this little runty runt, and Gumdrop was, like, over it. I now understand Gumdrop's resistance and protest.

[Amanda]

I mean, it's hard not to feel that way about your second. It was like her sixth.

[Kelsey (caller)]

Exactly.

[Amanda]

And she's like, oh, hell, no.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Five is my limit.

[Abby]

Yes. And so there was this one kitten that was not thriving. And do you. I think you and me, or me and a Friend.

[Amanda]

No, it was just. It was just you. And you had a friend over that night that they were born. But you made it your life's mission to bring this little kitty along. And she wouldn't have lived.

[Abby]

No. With an eyedropper.

[Amanda]

You had an eyedropper of milk, and you fed that thing every single day.

[Abby]

And you kept.

[Amanda]

And remember, it wouldn't grow. It wouldn't. It was, like, perfect. It was like kitten size for its whole life. And so it was perfect because it was. But it was bat shit crazy.

[Abby]

Oh, yeah. She lost some brain action, I think, in the beginning.

[Amanda]

She was amazing.

[Abby]

Do you remember how wild she was? She would attack everybody but me. Dad couldn't feed her because she'd just go crazy.

[Sissy]

A foreshadowing for your life.

[Abby]

Yeah. Some kind of metaphor. And we named her Miracle. Oh, sweet Miracle.

[Amanda]

I loved Miracle. I loved Miracle. But it's true, Abby, what you were saying. Because I feel like there's so many points where, theoretically, throughout our day in our lives, we appreciate little moments we could be going around being like, oh, look at that smile. Oh, look at that. We could see anything as beautiful and special. But this having a vehicle of like a furry, precious, lovely thing, kind of like, it forces you.

[Sissy]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Your attention into the moments that you would otherwise.

[Sissy]

That's right.

[Abby]

And it gives everybody in the family this. I feel like in our family, the dogs are also like a pressure release valve. You're just staring at each other all day, and you're like, we want to

[Sissy]

talk about real stuff.

[Abby]

We're talking about stuff, Looking at each other, judging each other, trying to figure each other out.

[Sissy]

Like, how are you feeling? Feeling kids.

[Abby]

And also, like, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with. And then the dog comes, and everybody gets to shift, literally, their gaze from each other. Yeah. To the dog. And it's just this release valve of intensity to joy.

[Sissy]

Yeah.

[Abby]

Or stress. I mean, honestly, our dogs are always peeing, always going in the trash. I mean, it's also. It's not all roses.

[Sissy]

No, it's not all roses, but it's worth it. Totally.

[Abby]

Even.

[Sissy]

Even the peeing and the. The trash eating and the barking with Hattie. It's worth it. Like, the amount of times that we look at each other and the dogs are on our bed.

[Abby]

Yeah. We have our bed.

[Sissy]

We have no boundaries. And we're like, I love them so. Like, in our. Our teeth are. We're like, I love them so much.

[Kelsey (caller)]

What is that?

[Abby]

What the fuck? Why do we want to eat them? That's so weird.

[Sissy]

We have a beast in our bed. We have a beast in our bed.

[Amanda]

And we're happy. It's an animal.

[Abby]

And you should know that we have trained them to sleep with their heads on the pillow between us. They sleep like human beings. It's a row of Doyle wambach. Like, it's Abby, then Hattie, then Honey, then me. And then during the night, I move Honey over to the other side of Abby because she snores so loud.

[Sissy]

Oh, it's so funny.

[Abby]

And now we have a new animal.

[Sissy]

Well, here is where things get a little wild.

[Amanda]

You're even surprising yourself.

[Sissy]

The absurdity of dogs for us.

[Abby]

Gateways.

[Sissy]

Is there a gateway? And I've always been anti. I've always been pro dog anti everything else.

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Sissy]

Especially rodents.

[Amanda]

Especially.

[Sissy]

Especially snakes and rodents.

[Abby]

Okay.

[Sissy]

Those. And I. I send all of the rodents and snakes. Love. But they're just. It's just not for me. It's just not my jam.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Sissy]

Well, Tish, she comes to us recently and she said, you know what? You know what? My life is missing? My life is missing a hamster. And she knows us as parents very well. And so she is, you know, informing and educating the three of us.

[Abby]

And she's also telling us why she needs it. Tish is the one who, like, six years after the divorce will still explain that perhaps she forgot her book report because of the trauma of a broken family.

[Sissy]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Okay.

[Abby]

So she told us that she was feeling, like, lonely, and so she needed a hamster. She played all of our buttons.

[Sissy]

Yeah. She approaches us and she has what. What feels like a little bit like of a.

[Leah (caller)]

A report.

[Sissy]

Like a school report. Like, here is how long hamster lives all. And also benefits.

[Tish]

She fibbed on that.

[Sissy]

She said only one year. And this one loses two. We get to the freaking. We decide, okay, we're gonna do this.

[Abby]

No, no, no. First you said, absolutely not, of course. And then four days later, we're at this pet store.

[Sissy]

No, we say, absolutely, you can do this at Craig's house.

[Abby]

Yeah, that's right. Craig and I are texting back and forth, like, negotiating the crap out of this. Exactly.

[Sissy]

And so we've decided as a family that that hamster is going to live at Craig's house. Well, I don't know how this happened.

[Abby]

I don't know either.

[Sissy]

Tish decides that she needs the hamster now, and the hamster is now having to live in our house because of the divorce problem.

[Abby]

Because of the divorce.

[Sissy]

So we go to the freaking store, we get this hamster Biscuit the hamster. We get all the things.

[Abby]

The whole damn family goes.

[Sissy]

And now the hamster's living at our house.

[Abby]

And how do you feel about the hamster, babe?

[Sissy]

Okay, so here's the deal with, with Biscuit, new rodent.

[Abby]

I call her Beatrix.

[Sissy]

We call her Beatrix.

[Tish]

I freaking love this thing.

[Amanda]

I.

[Sissy]

When, when Tish goes and and is at Craig's house, I sit and I watch her. This thing is a, a nocturnal. I didn't know hamsters were nocturnal. Like I actually don't know what the point of her is because she's up during the night and not at all during the day. So there's like one hour between, by the time we go to work, like in bed, that she might.

[Abby]

9 to 10.

[Sissy]

9 to 9 to 10pm That I just sit there and I'm watching her and Tish does bath bonding time.

[Abby]

So Tish and the hamster. So what I'm trying to. What we're trying to tell you Pod squad, watch out for dogs from 9 to 10. First of all, we used to go to bed at 9. Okay? Now from 9 to 10, I am in my bed reading. And if you need to find Abby, you have to go to Tish's room. Even when Tish is not here, even when she's at Craig's, Abby is sitting cross legged in front of a cage that's on the floor. I love that thing in the dark.

[Sissy]

I just want it to come out for me.

[Abby]

And she's staring, waiting for Biscuit to peek her little biscuit head out. Unless, of course, Tish is home. When Tish is home, Abby stares with Tish from 9, 9:30. And then Tish brings the hamster into the only bathtub that is a. That exists in our home, which is in my bathroom. And Tish and the hamster sit in our bathtub for half an hour. What are they even doing in here?

[Sissy]

There's bath bed. It's called bath time bonding. But like, what's so fun?

[Abby]

Does it flow? No, no, the water.

[Sissy]

No water. No water.

[Abby]

There's no water on it.

[Sissy]

It's just an enclosed space. So as to the hamster doesn't like crawl into the crevice of a room and go away forever. So this is a safe place.

[Abby]

But I do think it's a perfect example of what pets do to a family. Because my one sacred safe space, right when I get into the bathtub, now there's hamster shit in it.

[Kelsey (caller)]

Literally.

[Sissy]

No, Tish cleans it up. No, she cleans up a. And B, here's what I'll say about this little hamster. And I think the real reason why I love it, it's because

[Tish]

this child

[Sissy]

worked really hard to convince us she did. And I love this child.

[Abby]

Yes, you do.

[Tish]

So much.

[Sissy]

I love our children so much that when she comes into our room and talks about the love that she has for this biscuit, it's like, it's a grand animal.

[Abby]

She's our grand hamster.

[Sissy]

She's our grand hamster.

[Abby]

And I love our first granddaughter.

[Sissy]

I love this thing as if it's my own, because it kind of is.

[Abby]

And because we've watched her. I mean, Tish, you know how she is. She would not. She came into our room each night and talked about how she's fostering trust between her and the hamster. She would never pick her up because she. She needed to earn the hamster coming to her. It was very. She was trying to go in that room, the hamster for who the hamster was.

[Tish]

Don't you go in that room?

[Sissy]

She said, yeah, so don't you go in that room. I'm like, gosh, don't you go in that room, Abby. Like, all right, well, and then, of course, I got to get in there just to see.

[Abby]

Yeah, you do sneak in.

[Sissy]

Well, because I think that all animals are going to love me the most.

[Abby]

You do. You do. Yeah.

[Sissy]

I don't know. I. I understand. That's unhealthy.

[Amanda]

It's so good. It's so good.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Tish]

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[Sissy]

We went all out.

[Tish]

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[Amanda]

All right, we have some questions from the pod squad about their pet.

[Abby]

Great. Let's hear some pet cues from the pod squatters.

[Leah (caller)]

Hi, my name is Leah. I'm calling in because I'm really excited about something. My dog Stella and I are going to go to our first group class to work on some issues that she has. We've been doing a training program for a while now and we've done some private lessons, but this is our first group class and I'm really scared and excited about it. I just love Stella so much. She's such a sweet dog, but she just has a lot of issues. Whenever we go outside, she. Stella just feels all of the things. She is so affectionate and loving, but she gets so scared and anxious when we go outside. But we're working through it because I want her to be able to go out into the world with me. And I just wanted to call and tell you about that because she's on my island and I love her a lot. I'd love to hear more about your guys relationship with Honey and Hattie and any other pets that you've had. Thanks. Bye.

[Abby]

Leah is Stella's emotional support human.

[Sissy]

And you know what she. You know who Stella reminds me of?

[Abby]

Who?

[Sissy]

My beautiful wife.

[Amanda]

She just feels so much. She's so lovely. But then she goes out into the world and she's so nervous. It's scared.

[Kelsey (caller)]

Yeah.

[Abby]

I'm glad that Stella's getting some group therapy. I just wish she would still just be able to go to her private lessons.

[Amanda]

I feel like it's so. I love that she said that she's on my island because we have received so many messages from people that are saying, you know, my animal is the closest thing to me and I think that that is beautiful. And I feel like there's kind of a cultural. Kind of like in the Friends episode where we talked about, you know, you get a divorce and everyone's like, oh, I'm so sorry. But then you break up with your best friend and the world is like moving right along. I just want to say out loud that there's so many people for whom their connection to their animals is their deepest, most profound.

[Abby]

The love story of their life.

[Amanda]

The love story. The love story of their life. That's right. It's a real thing. And I feel like we kind of belittle it a little bit. But there's honestly, when you look at like the actual research, people should not be belittling it. Dogs actually, and animals, pets that you love, they actually increase your oxytocin, they make you less stressed out, they increase the way that you socialize in the world that like people socialize more in the world who have animals that don't. They handle stress better, they have lower blood pressure. I mean, when's the last time a friendship did that for you? I'm just saying you might want to check.

[Abby]

Well, it's like if we're basing our all over health and wellness on physicality, then it. All those things you just said scientifically, the animals make us make our lives Better. But also, there's no spiritual tradition that at the heart of it, doesn't say, okay, the way to the way is presence. Yes, that's it. Like, that's it. That's what everybody's saying in all of the. In love and presence. Presence and love. Loving presence. That's what every spiritual tradition tells us is the answer. And dogs and animals, that's what they're forcing us into.

[Sissy]

That's right.

[Abby]

Is loving presence.

[Amanda]

It's that William Martin quote. Do not ask your children to strive for extraordinary lives. Such striving may seem admirable, but it is the way of foolishness. Help them instead to find the wonder and the marvel of an ordinary life. Show them the joy of tasting tomatoes, apples and pears. Show them how to cry when pets and people die. Show them the infinite pleasure in the touch of a hand and make the ordinary come alive for them. The extraordinary will take care of itself. Yeah, like, that's what I feel like they do. It's kind of like when you're doing meditation. Bring your breath back. Bring your breath back. Bring your breath back. It's like, that's what I feel like Seamus does for me. You know, I'm so busy seeing the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And him being there is like, bring your presence back to this moment because I'm licking your face. Bring your presence back to this moment because I need you to pull on this rope like it doesn't matter. All these other things.

[Abby]

The meditation thing is so interesting because I was actually. This happens to me all the time. I'm meditating. Just recently meditating upstairs. And Hattie, she's thinks she's a guard dog, so she's sitting by the window and she's freaking out. She's freaking out. Okay, so I'm trying to meditate, and Hattie is looking out our window and freaking out because she thinks that the person who's walking by our house is attacking us. So she's distracting us from this beautiful meditation because she thinks she's under attack. And of course, you know, in meditation, Pema Chodron always says, the obstacle in the path is the path. So when my dog interrupts me because she's freaking out because she doesn't think she's safe. In my meditation, I try to think, okay, not like, you're so annoying. You're messing up my meditation, but this is my meditation for the day. How is Hattie interrupting me? Because she's scared my meditation. And to me, the answer is, I'm saying to Hattie, why are you freaking out? You're totally safe. We're in this beautiful moment. I've got this. And the God of whoever, all of our understanding, the universe, is looking at me and saying, why are you always freaking out? We're in this beautiful moment. You're safe. You don't have to guard your house. I've got this. You're safe.

[Amanda]

And why. Your God is saying to you, why do you. I send all of this into your life. And you interpret every passerby as a potential threat, intruder and threat.

[Abby]

And you're always barking, Glennon. You are always afraid, so you're always barking when you could be just laying around in the sun in this house. That is safe.

[Leah (caller)]

Wow.

[Sissy]

I tell you what, my meditations go quite different.

[Abby]

So good. All right, let's hear from this next caller.

[Sissy]

That was good.

[Abby]

Thank you, baby.

[Leah (caller)]

I was listening to your podcast last night as I was driving home from the 24 hour vet emergency for, you know, another crazy dog emergency. And it got me home at 4 in the morning without crashing. So it definitely kept me awake and entertained. But my question for you is, how do you deal with hard things with pets? You know, we get gifted these incredible animals into our lives that become part of our family. And I don't have kids, so I definitely have the fur babies. And you just fall so deeply in love with them. And you also know it's. It's a short, short time. And so, yeah, I guess I was just curious as to what your relationship is with pets and how you hold on to that connection, knowing that it's shorter than most human connections. What do you do with the grief around all of that? Like, what. What do you find helpful? So anyway, I love you guys. You're wonderful, and please keep doing all the beautiful work that you're doing. Thank you so much.

[Kelsey (caller)]

Bye.

[Sissy]

I think Sissy's crying. Are you crying over there?

[Amanda]

I just don't. I've never been through bad guy.

[Sissy]

She just got Seamus. So.

[Abby]

Yeah, I mean, that's the question. That's the question. Right? I'm. I'm thinking about the first experience that we had with animals and death was usually, I feel like most parents who are resisting fur animals because they feel like they're treading too much water. We start with fish. That's what our family did.

[Amanda]

We started with fish. We were like, that's the reverse gateway. Yeah, because, you know, I bought three years of non dog time by having fish.

[Abby]

Right, exactly. So it's like, it's a hold off. It's a dam. It's a. Yeah. So we bought fish. We had three little beta fish that were in different little. What are they called? Teeny aquariums. They were in each of the kids rooms. This is when we were like, real heavy, like Jesusy. I am not kidding. The fish's names were Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. I did not name them.

[Sissy]

Oh, my gosh. Are you kidding me?

[Abby]

No. I haven't even told you this whole thing. So Emma had Jesus, Tish had Mary, and Chase had Joseph.

[Amanda]

Did Jesus just appear from Mary without Joseph? Was it two aquariums and then it's like Mary unto her.

[Abby]

Exactly.

[Amanda]

Jesus is given.

[Abby]

So weird, you guys.

[Amanda]

And you had to move him unexpected.

[Abby]

And Mary the fish was like, dude, I swear to God, I did not have fish sex.

[Sissy]

I did not have fish.

[Amanda]

Jesus side eyeing Mary for the first couple days.

[Abby]

He's like, all right, Joseph the fish is like, I freaking knew it.

[Sissy]

This is my favorite thing that has ever happened on our podcast.

[Abby]

Anyway, so we've got Jesus, Mary and Joseph was going fine for a little while. And my friends had their kids over and they were all running around upstairs in the kids bedrooms, all the little ones. And I hear screaming from upstairs. And Emma is little. Her little voice is screaming, mom, Jesus is dead. Jesus is dead. Okay? Over and over again. So we run upstairs and poor little Peyton, Emma's friend, has poured the whole fish food into the aquarium. And so Jesus has indeed gorged Jesus self so much that Jesus is in fact, dead and floating. And for sure, Amma's waiting for it to resurrect.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I mean, for sure. Let's see if this promise is real.

[Abby]

Yeah, for sure. Amma's like, this story is not yet over,

[Amanda]

right?

[Abby]

It's the Friday. It's the Friday. First the pain, then the waiting, then the rising.

[Amanda]

Right?

[Abby]

But in fact, Jesus, the fish was not gonna rise. And so this was the first real conversation that we had to have as a family about religion, about. Yeah, that was tricky. But, you know, really just talking about what is the point? I mean, I remember saying Chase, like, what is the point? They just die. We love them and then they die. And it was speaking to this larger point of, like, what is the point of loving at all? And I really remember the five of us just coming to the idea of we do not love because it lasts forever. Because if we did that, we would all be fools. We would all be wrong. We would all be wasting our time because it will never, in fact, last forever. But we love because the process of loving something changes.

[Tish]

Us.

[Sissy]

Yes.

[Abby]

Because the process, the doing of it, the loving and being loved, creates this growth in us that leaves us different and better and wholer and more beautiful when it ends, after it ends. Right.

[Sissy]

Maybe that love doesn't even really ever end. I still love the dog that I had from years and years ago.

[Abby]

Yeah, you're right. It doesn't. You're right. It doesn't end. The relationship doesn't fully end.

[Amanda]

Everything we love will transform in some way or another over the lifespan, but it's so compressed with our little animals that, again, with the presence, it's present in your head the whole time, you know?

[Abby]

You know, I think that

[Sissy]

it's like death in training. And we get to practice, hopefully throughout the whole of our life with these pets to start learning about death and understanding the relationship we personally have with it so that we can prep for the death of our parents or our loved ones. I just think, yeah, it is. I mean, I don't know if there's a more beautiful lesson you can teach. And it's just so interesting to me that for us, these dogs and this hamster are going to help us and teach our kids.

[Abby]

Exactly. Because it also. I don't know how to do it. I certainly don't know what's right and wrong. But I know what feels tempting to me when an animal is lost. What's tempting to me is what's tempting to me with everything that my kids go through that's painful, which is it's okay. And look, an eagle. And here's a new one. And don't feel any of it. And moving on. You know, all of these things we do where we're replacing the animal really fast, or we're like, you know, distracting them, or we're telling them that it went to live on a farm somewhere, or we're lying and lying and lying so that they don't feel the loss of loss. And for me, it's an opportunity to resist that and to trust that, to show them ritual right to, like, give a container to grief, to give a vehicle to it. Okay. Yeah. Now we sit sadly, and we don't know. We don't know. We say we don't know. We don't necessarily, if we don't believe it, make up a bunch of stories about what is happening. We don't know. And then we sit and we don't know together, and we feel sad together. And then we create some sort of ritual to help us move through our grief.

[Amanda]

And I think that the same, you know, it is practice for human loss, but it also is its own real loss. That is a very real loss. And I think, you know, I didn't grow up with dogs, but John was one of five kids. And it's so interesting how when that family gets together, I feel like a lot of the portion of the conversation revolve. They're all different ages. They span this gap, but they have the glue. Reminds me of untamed Elmer's. It's like the glue that connects their experiences through these various times where they were different ages and different stages is what dog was at the center of their family during. During any time period. And they get together and they talk about those times with the dog. And so. And this is, you know, 40 years later, you know, the dog we had then. Then the dog we had then. And silly. They actually tell stories all the time about it. So I feel like it's a really acknowledging the glue that is the these animals in our families and how that continuity can still be alive years later.

[Leah (caller)]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Is really special.

[Abby]

And it's like the center, like, we think of pets as like the app. I'm thinking of a wheel. A wheel right now when you're talking. And I'm thinking of how we think of pets as like, you know, they're on the outside with us, but maybe the pet is the center, the dog is the center. Because it's like everybody gets to have their own separate relationship with the dog, too. And every kid gets kind of what they need. You know, a kid who needs to play and be engaged. You know, a kid. I remember the cats. Like a sensitive kid who, like, feels so much at school.

[Tish]

School.

[Abby]

And can't connect with people at school, but then comes home to their safe place with the dog. It's like the dog turns out kind of to be the center of the

[Amanda]

wheel because it's the only part of the wheel that is consistently its essential nature. You know, when I get with my, you know, son, I love him so much, but I bring so much fear and anxiety about his future and what's going on here and what's going on there that there is inevitably some of my armor pushing his armor at all times. As sad as it makes me feel like, but with the same with my husband. But the dog is the only one in the family who is strictly as essential nature. So when that's the case, people can come and get what they need and have this genuine connection. Yeah.

[Abby]

All right, let's hear from Kelsey.

[Leah (caller)]

Hi, guys. My name is Kelsey. Kelsey. I am a nurse, and my first Year I worked in a pediatric ICU that was emotionally traumatizing, physically traumatizing, and threatened the eating disorder recovery. I had worked so hard to maintain. And it took everything in me to quit that job. It was like the first time I did something despite knowing that everybody would look at me differently and possibly think I failed. So that is the best decision I think I've made in a very long time.

[Kelsey (caller)]

I love my job now.

[Leah (caller)]

I'm getting my master's in psychiatric nursing and I'll be a psych NP in a couple years. But I just wanted to ask you guys, do you have pets and if you do have any, like, changed your mental health at all? I just adopted kittens, and it's been the most mentally well I've been in a long time. Love you guys.

[Abby]

We love you too, Kelsey. First of all, this is such an example of some. The bravest thing. The bravest thing is sometimes doing the thing that everyone else will think it's a failure, was weak, was wimpy. That is some brave stuff, Kelsey. And then you can hear the joy and the freedom in her voice after that decision. That's so awesome.

[Amanda]

Good for you.

[Sissy]

Yep.

[Abby]

Yeah. I think that my dogs are. I would say, for sure Lexapro and Honey and hattie are the three most consistent helpers of my mental health. 100%. And I. I think also your wife. Oh, sorry. Yes. Also you. There's something that. For. It's interesting that. That Kelsey has an eating disorder recovery story, because I think one of the things that's scary about people is that people all have. Are all conditioned. People all have their own conditioning, their social, gender, all of it. Beauty, conditioning. And so when you are recovering from something that has so much to do with the way you view yourself and the way the world. The world treats you based on how you look, your outer shell. It's not fake that you're always dealing with other people's shit. You are always dealing with other people's shit. People react to you in certain ways based on how you appear in the world. And when you are someone who is recovering from an eating disorder, that stuff is not only triggering, but it's obvious. It's way more obvious than it is for other people. It's like. It's like seeing the Matrix all the time. So you can see how people react better to you when you look a certain way or not as well to you when you look, you're worth more because you look the way that the world has told you to. Whatever it is we see it all and feel it all. And dogs are the only beings or animals who don't. There's none of that. Dogs are not socially conditioned to me. That's why my dogs feel like such an incredibly safe place for me, because they have not been affected by the world in ways that make them strong. Treat me in certain ways that makes me feel unsafe.

[Sissy]

Right.

[Abby]

So, yes, Kelsey. And. And also, you know, people, like people who have anxiety or conditions that make us overthink everything and get lost in our minds. Dogs are the immediate fix for that. Or cats. Or because they bring us back to like, okay, I just need to walk and I need to eat and I need to play and I need to sleep.

[Sissy]

Mm.

[Abby]

And then that reminds you. Oh, yeah. So, like, really what I need to do is I just need to sleep, I need to eat, I need to play.

[Amanda]

That's it.

[Abby]

And I probably need to drink more water.

[Sissy]

Yeah.

[Abby]

They bring you back to, like, the immediate small thinking that, like, big thinking screws you with. Okay, let's hear from our pod squatter of the week.

[Kelsey (caller)]

Hello, my name is Leah. So I know Alice has the sea turtles and Kish has polar bears. Apparently my 4 year old son has all the animals in captivity. I recently brought him to the zoo against my better judgment, because I was trying to do this progressive parenting thing where I let him make his own choices rather than like just pushing all of my beliefs on him, which I still think that some of them are valid, but I still want to give him the space in the room to, you know, find his way, whatever. Well, I'm a single parent, and he saw all the animals, particularly the lions and the tigers. And all he could ask very loudly was, where are their mommies? And I'm going to bust out their cages and I'm going to bash through those cages. Where are their moms? To which every other child looked at them, looked at their parents and said, we're all are their mommies. And so I created an uprising at the National Zoo where many, many toddlers were both confused, sad, mad, crying about where all the animals and mommies are. So we are doing our part to untame ourselves as well as apparently untame all the animals in captivity. Thank you for everything you do.

[Abby]

Oh, the uprising at the zoo. Hell yes to that little troublemaker. Okay, so how. First of all, I'm obsessed with. Because I was trying to do this progressive parenting thing where I let him make his own choices. Yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah. First of all, yes to blah, blah, blah. Okay, I hear you. I feel you on a molecular level with the blah, blah, blah. I also try to do the blah, blah, blah. And it feels very blah, blah, blah to me. But I would like to say to this parent, you're blah, blah, blah, trying to allow your kid to have their own vision and their own voice and their own instinct and trust. It is effing working. Because you thought it was just that, like, you're trying to take them to the zoo, even though you don't believe in zoos, but here they are showing up at the zoo and saying f this, raising their little troublemaker hand, asking the tough questions. Asking the tough questions.

[Amanda]

Your little one is looking at the zoo saying, I thought it would be more beautiful than this.

[Abby]

I can imagine a truer and more beautiful version of this. And so that little troublemaker says the thing, excuse me, I'm having feelings. And then all the other toddlers are like, hell, yes. I too was having those feelings f this system. And we're all gonna band together and turn it over so the zoo becomes liberated. Yes to you.

[Sissy]

My gosh.

[Abby]

Yes to all of you people that are actually trying the yada yada, the blah, blah, blah. The blah, blah, blah. It's effing working, y'. All. Keep it up. We love you so much. Ask the hard questions this week. Raise your little toddler hand.

[Tish]

Do the blah, blah blahs.

[Amanda]

Find the moments of ordinary and let the extraordinary take care of itself with your tiny little furry or scaled or feathered friends.

[Abby]

We love you. We'll see you next week. We are proud to say that We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by us, Treat Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram.