← We Can Do Hard Things
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- [00:00]
Glennon Doyle
Pod Squad. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Congratulations, because we're bringing back our best of conversation with the one and only Samantha Irby. Because in this moment, I keep thinking if we don't laugh, we will only cry or rage or go numb. And also, you can also laugh while you cry or rage. And I recommend that if we lose our ability to laugh at the absurdity of being alive right now, they've won. Because maybe laughter isn't an escape from reality. Maybe laughter is resistance. Maybe it's survival. Maybe it's how we refuse to let this moment take our joy, our weirdness, our delight, our ability to point at the chaos and say, this is ridiculous. Sam understands something. Holy humor is not avoidance. Humor is finding the absurd thing and holding onto it long enough to make the next five minutes bearable. And in this conversation, she gives us exactly that. We talk about the lava beneath, the jokes, the grief, rage and heartbreak funny people often carry under the surface. Sam shares her life changing strategies for interacting with humans, her lowercase F friendship theory, and why not everyone has to become your soulmate. And her deep commitment to Jomo, the joy of missing out, plus her belief that nobody is actually having a better time than you are. Except maybe Abby. Abby's always having a better time than you are. This one is medicine. Weird, hilarious, irreverent, deeply human medicine, which feels like exactly what we need right now. Here's Sam Irby. We hope you enjoy.
- [01:48]
Abby Wambach
Hello, sweet world. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. I think today we'll call this We Can Do Funny Things. Because we have one of the funniest people in the universe here, someone the three of us love to high heavens. First of all, I'll just tell you we have Sam Irby here. I know.
- [02:08]
Rachel Elizabeth
Laugh out loud author.
- [02:10]
Abby Wambach
All right. Samantha Irby writes the Bitches Gotta Eat blog and is the author of wow. No thank you. We are never meeting in real life. And Meaty. She has been a writer and or co producer for TV shows including. And Just like that, work in progress, Shrill and Tuca and Bertie. Sam Irby, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.
- [02:38]
Samantha Irby
Thank you for having me on your incredible show. I am very intimidated. I'm going to do my best to sound like cool and relaxed, but I'm nervous.
- [02:51]
Abby Wambach
Okay? So, well, let's get the cool out of the way right away because what I want to start with, Sam, is our friendship origin story, which is my favorite story in the world. Okay, so Sam and I did an event together. At the end of the event, I Loved her so much. I sent her my phone number, an email. Months and months later. Lo so many months later, I am sitting in France at the World cup, okay. Next to my wife, as you do. Right. I'm at the soccer, as per usual, but it's a big soccer, okay? Like the biggest soccer.
- [03:28]
Rachel Elizabeth
It's the biggest soccer.
- [03:29]
Abby Wambach
Like the super bowl of soccer. The Oscars of soccer, if you will.
- [03:32]
Rachel Elizabeth
Yes.
- [03:33]
Abby Wambach
The Grammys.
- [03:34]
Rachel Elizabeth
I mean, also, it's just the World Cup.
- [03:36]
Abby Wambach
The Grammys of the soccer.
- [03:37]
Rachel Elizabeth
The World cup is. It's a standalone event, okay? This is what. Everything else compares.
- [03:41]
Abby Wambach
So, like, the Tonys. Like the Tony. Oh, my God.
- [03:44]
Samantha Irby
Just go with the story.
- [03:45]
Abby Wambach
And I get a text, okay? And it says something like the following. Hello, Glennon. I'm sorry to escalate our friendship on text in this way, but I'm an emergency. I'm sitting in a room full of people, and I may have told the people that I am very good friends with you and Abby, and now they are calling me on it and asking me to call you. So can you please answer your phone and act like we're good friends?
- [04:16]
Rachel Elizabeth
I mean.
- [04:16]
Abby Wambach
I mean, do you remember Abby sitting there and being like, well, now she's our favorite person in the entire instant.
- [04:21]
Rachel Elizabeth
Instant.
- [04:23]
Samantha Irby
I try to lead with honesty, even when it's humiliating. I don't even. I remember it exactly. I was in the work in progress writers room, and someone mentioned you two and, like, to be cool, I was like, oh, you mean my friends? And they were like. And then I had to text you and be like, please, could you act like we're best friends so that I can impress these people who think I'm a huge liar. And you did, and they were impressed. Of course. It was amazing.
- [05:03]
Abby Wambach
Of course. We were sending pictures like, we can't believe you couldn't come with us. Here's your extra seat. This game sucks without you.
- [05:11]
Samantha Irby
Yeah. Yeah.
- [05:13]
Abby Wambach
I've loved you ever since that moment. Okay, so, Sam, we want to start this interview with one of our favorite questions, which is this. It was a question that Rachel Elizabeth asked, and it was this. Did you have a happy childhood or are you funny?
- [05:31]
Samantha Irby
I'm funny. Take that to mean what you will. But, no, no. Let's say I'm very funn.
- [05:48]
Abby Wambach
Got it.
- [05:48]
Samantha Irby
Yeah.
- [05:49]
Abby Wambach
Isn't that, like, the best question, though?
- [05:51]
Samantha Irby
It's a really good question, and it's totally. I know it's a trope, but it's totally true. Whenever you meet anyone you think is funny, you just want to get to the point. Where you're like, okay, what's your damage? Like, where did this come from? Do our damages match? Or can I learn something new about another way you can be fucked up? You know, it's like, I have my way. What's your way? How did you get here? And usually it's some, like, terrible trauma, but because you're talking to a funny person, they make it funny. And you're like, oh, what happened? Who died? Who got hit by a what? And then you're, like, cracking up. And then later, it's like, oh, man, I'm really glad that I got to know that person. But also, am I an asshole for laughing at all the stuff they told me in a funny way? People say that to me. They'll be like, you know, when you talk about your childhood, it makes me really sad, but also, I really laugh. Is that okay? And I'm like, yeah, please, I want you to. I laugh. It's the only way that I'm okay is if I can, like, laugh about it.
- [07:02]
Abby Wambach
What went down that you had to get funny for?
- [07:05]
Samantha Irby
Well, I think so. I grew up super poor, but in a, like, weird sort of poverty where I was surrounded by a lot of people who had money and parents. And when you're a kid, you don't really have any idea of who has what. You just know, like, what you don't have. For me, I had to find a way to sort of. I was gonna say rationalize, but that's not the way to, like, see what I lacked and not feel bad about it. Right? So it's like, I don't have all of this stuff. My mom was really sick, and then she went into a nursing home. And then I bounced around in, like, foster homes and stuff. And it's like, I. This has to be funny or it'll kill me. I think that's my philosophy to this day. It's like, even in the most bleak of circumstances, I have to find, like, the joke in order to keep going, because I am not a traditionally hopeful person. Right. I'm like, oh, I guess I can make it. And so the laughter sort of keeps the. I guess I can make it going.
- [08:24]
Abby Wambach
It's so interesting because some people have. A lot of us have the, like, it'll get better. So the optimism we get through because we tell ourself it's gonna get better. But your theory has always been, no, I can just make the next five minutes more bearable.
- [08:39]
Rachel Elizabeth
Yes.
- [08:40]
Samantha Irby
Yeah, I can laugh at this thing. So. Both my parents died when I was 18. Not together, which would have been cheaper, more emotionally. More emotionally economical for me. At my mom's funeral. So, like, I was, like, 18. I didn't barely have a brain at 18, right? I couldn't deal with grief, but I also couldn't deal with people, like, looking at me because, you know, everyone's always looking at you. You're the star of the movie. And so we were at her funeral, and it was, like, really sad. And my sisters and I are sitting in the front row, and the minister who was performing the service didn't know my mom very well, but he knew my sister because it was at her. The church she went to. And my sister's name is Carmen. And he kept referring to my mom as Carmen.
- [09:42]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
Oh, my gosh.
- [09:43]
Samantha Irby
And when I tell you, I was screaming, laughing. Like, by the end, by, like, the fourth time, I was, like, falling over in the pew, laughing, and my sisters were laughing, and I was just like, okay, this is how we get through this, right? Like, it's terrible, and we're gonna have to, like, sort through her stuff and figure out how much debt she was in and all that stuff. But to get through that moment, we just were, like, crying, laughing at this dude. And, like, Carmen. I mean, I felt bad for her because, like, he kept rip. Carmen. I was like, shouldn't you climb in there? Like, pointing to casket? She was just like, I want to beat your ass. After this funeral, you have to find the one absurd thing and just, like, cling to that till you get through to a good place.
- [10:43]
Rachel Elizabeth
Can I just say, your. Your laughter, the way you laugh makes me happy.
- [10:49]
Abby Wambach
Me too. I feel happy.
- [10:50]
Rachel Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [10:52]
Samantha Irby
Wow.
- [10:52]
Glennon Doyle
What you just described at the funeral, this is my whole question about humor. And is humor a way to deflect and hide from reality, or is it actually the most real reality? Because it's like, everything's absurd all the time. Even the very sorrowful things are outrageously absurd. So are we, like, using it as a shield of armor to protect us from reality, or is it actually the most active engagement with reality is to be like, this shit is funny.
- [11:23]
Samantha Irby
For me, I feel like it's the most active way to interact with reality. Although I would say, okay, sometimes with humor, I use it to protect myself. And I think, like, that developed early, right? Cause I was like, I've always been a little fat kid with buck teeth, right? And nobody is charitable to you when that's who you look. And so I. My. My defense mechanism was always like, let's beat them to the joke. Where I grew up, I Grew up in Evanston, which is just north of Chicago. It's where Northwestern is. I don't know if it still exists, but when I was growing up, there was this, like, community donation place called Eska. And all of the fancy people would, like, donate their clothes there, and those of us who were not fancy would get clothes from there. And because I was, like, a fat kid, I would always be, like, wearing someone's, like, dad's golf shirt to school, right? And one day, this girl's like, I think that's my dad's shirt. And I could have, you know, like, in the movie version, I would, like, you know, melt into a puddle, and there would be some sort of lesson. But I was like, he has great taste, and. And the pits still smell like him. You know, like something disgusting but funny. And she was disarmed. And I didn't feel bad for being poor. We just, like, had that moment. And so it has served to protect me in that way. But I think as an adult, what you said about engaging with reality in a more real way, I think when you were always looking for the absurd thing, you can't ignore any part of what's happening, right? It's like, okay, this sucks, but I'm gonna dig through all the suck to see what's funny about it. I think it makes going through life less scary, you know? And I'm, like, a super anxious person. If I look in the rearview mirror and a car is coming too close, I feel like it's chasing me. I mean, like, anxious for real. But my way of dealing with that is just to really receive all of it and then pick out the part that'll make me laugh. We'll see how successful that continues to be as the world crumbles. But so far. So far, it's worked. It's worked.
- [14:10]
Glennon Doyle
I have a quick follow up to that. So in the shirt situation.
- [14:13]
Samantha Irby
Yeah.
- [14:14]
Glennon Doyle
The funniness gets you through that moment, right? Because you're disarming her. You're disarming you. You're taking it away. But is the underlying, oh, I want to die.
- [14:26]
Samantha Irby
Yeah.
- [14:27]
Glennon Doyle
You still have to deal with the underlying stuff, right?
- [14:29]
Samantha Irby
Oh, yes. You know, like, underneath that, it's like, I hate my mom for being poor. I hate my body for not fitting into cute things. Like, no, under the surface, I don't know that anyone would think I was, like, a. A flighty, frivolous person. But under the surface of the funny is like, you know, molten lava of rage, right. And disappointment and hurt and all of these things that Like I was born into are not my fault. Like, that's always there. But if I engage with that all the time, I couldn't get out of bed, right. Like, I would just be like, oh, why was I put on earth to suffer? So I'll make the jokes, but it's fueled by the rage, lava within.
- [15:20]
Rachel Elizabeth
It's like the stereotyping of comedians in the world.
- [15:23]
Glennon Doyle
Right.
- [15:23]
Rachel Elizabeth
Like, how so many comedians have this low level rage running underneath all of their jokes. To me, it's their way of coping. But I also wonder for you, how are you actually, like, dealing with that stuff that's actually underneath it? Like, what are things that you're doing that's good?
- [15:42]
Abby Wambach
Is it always a deflection or recovery?
- [15:44]
Rachel Elizabeth
Yeah, because you got to look at it, you got to present it, you got to turn it over and actually deal with it in moments, even if they're private.
- [15:52]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [15:52]
Glennon Doyle
What's happening with the lava?
- [15:54]
Samantha Irby
Well, sometimes the lava gets worked out in my work. Like, that's the beauty of writing about myself, is that I can sit in front of a computer and sort through it. I just. Well, I shouldn't say just. For the past year, I've been going to therapy, which is interesting. Well, you could tell therapy is interesting in general. So I chose a cognitive behavioral therapist. And I don't like therapy. Let's just say that my therapist, the things she tells me are sort of the antithesis of what I do, right. So I fuel myself off my negative thoughts. Like, my jokes come from there, my writing comes from there. My therapist is always like, let's reframe those negative thoughts. And I'm like, girl, I have.
- [16:52]
Abby Wambach
Are you gonna give me a book deal? Are you gonna give me a book deal?
- [16:56]
Samantha Irby
I just signed a three book deal, girl. I need these thoughts to be magnetic.
- [17:04]
Rachel Elizabeth
It's so complicated. Cause your livelihood depends on it in some ways. How do you deal with that?
- [17:09]
Samantha Irby
That's so much.
- [17:10]
Abby Wambach
Are you becoming positive, Sam?
- [17:12]
Rachel Elizabeth
No.
- [17:13]
Samantha Irby
Wait until you read. I just finished writing one and it's snarkier than ever. I have a whole chapter snarking about therapy and why I'm paying. I'm paying all this money to argue with the woman. I mean, we don't argue. But in my head, I'm like, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. I'm not thinking positively about that. So it's like a huge waste of time. And I should probably find a different kind of therapy. But one of the things we're working on is boundaries and knowing when to say no. So as soon as she gets me to the point where I learn how to say no, I'm gonna tell her no, get out of therapy.
- [17:56]
Abby Wambach
Okay, so is there anything that's been helpful? Have you experienced anything in that room that has been helpful for your lava?
- [18:05]
Samantha Irby
Yes. Okay. So one thing I like to do with her is come up with strategies. And I've come up with two life changing, earth shattering strategies. I'm going to give them to you. I haven't written about them. No one knows. Okay. My first one is a strategy I call I like it. So I have found, and I'm sure you guys know too, when you say you could say anything. Oh, man, that episode of 911, I love that show. That episode of 911 was really great. There's always going to be somebody who's like, you watch that? And it's like, you know yes. And like people expect you to apologize for what you like. It's like strangers are like expecting you to justify your taste. And I have found that if you just say I like, completely kneecaps them. Right?
- [19:10]
Rachel Elizabeth
That's right.
- [19:11]
Samantha Irby
It's so weird. Once I started doing it, I noticed all the ways I had to get something from a strip mall and this lady was like, oh, that's where you go. I don't have any allegiance to the strip mall, but I don't like this lady making me feel like an asshole. So I was like, I like it. And then she was like. And I was like, yeah, I like it. That's strip mall. Just can't say anything. They're just like, so that's strategy one, strategy two. This one is a little harder and it's more recent. But when people act like in a way that shows you that they don't like you, telling them that you don't think they like you is. It changes everything. It gets you out of things.
- [20:03]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
Oh my gosh.
- [20:03]
Samantha Irby
So I had this interaction with this person that I've known for a long time. And this is a thing about like sort of being funny. My humor is always projected internally, right? Like, I don't pick on people. I don't make fun of people. I don't care what anybody does. I am the villain of all my stories. So I pick on myself. I think, punch you punch in. I do punch in. I'm like a T. Rex, my tiny arms punching me. Just picture me with my little arms, my little rock em sock em robot arms punching myself. And sometimes that gives people, they take license and like sort of punch me too. And it's like, well, if this is a single person game, like, you can laugh at it, but I don't want you to, you know, rag on me all the time. So there's this woman who, every interaction, she was just like, low key, putting me down, but also being like, ha, ha, we're friends, right? And she asked me to hang out. This was a while ago. She asked me to hang out. And I was like, oh, no thanks. And she was like, why? And I was like, because I don't think you like me. And she was like, what? And I was like, yeah, I just don't think you like me. And she was like, I'm surprised to hear that. And she didn't say, I do like you. She said, I'm surprised to hear that. And I was like, I'm surprised you picked up what I was laying down. I was like, I bet you are surprised to hear that. Cause you just thought I would keep taking it and keep letting you, like, you know, piss in my face and tell me it's raining, and I just don't think you like me. And she. The way we ended it, she was just like, oh, okay. And I was like, okay, bye. Wow. It's worth all the money just for those two strategies alone. Yes. Because my therapist is very like. I mean, you guys know when you make things for people and you feel a duty to your audience. I want to be open to people. I want to engage with people. I want them to keep, you know, engaging with. That is buying the things that I'm
- [22:31]
Abby Wambach
trying to sell engaging with.
- [22:35]
Samantha Irby
But at some point, you just have to be like, okay, okay, I got to set a boundary here. I got to say no to this. I got to do whatever. It has been very helpful in at least in like, changing the dynamic of people who talk to me. I mean, I'm sure that there's a deep dive that I'm missing here about, like, maybe the way I talk about myself should change. I'm not ready to conquer that.
- [23:03]
Abby Wambach
No, we're not there yet. You're not letting anybody else punch in. And I love that.
- [23:09]
Samantha Irby
That's step one is just to find ways to, like, deflect. So that has been helpful. But having the rest of therapy, I don't know. We're gonna keep going, but I don't want to get too fixed, right?
- [23:26]
Rachel Elizabeth
No, but I think that that's a really important thing to say for those that are listening, because you don't have to like therapy to continue to go and actually get something out of It.
- [23:37]
Samantha Irby
Yeah.
- [23:37]
Rachel Elizabeth
That's really courageous to know. I don't like this, but I've gotten a couple things out of it that I feel really good about. And I'm gonna keep going. Cause like, maybe there'll be a third thing.
- [23:47]
Abby Wambach
Or go like, take what you need and then be like, I think you've taken me as far. I don't wanna be fixed all the way. I'm outta here.
- [23:54]
Rachel Elizabeth
I don't wanna be fixed all the way.
- [23:55]
Samantha Irby
I am trying to picture her face if I say I don't wanna be fixed all the way. And just imagining that is gonna make me keep going. Cause I don't wanna see it when she's like, don't worry, you're not even close.
- [24:14]
Glennon Doyle
There's not an imminent threat of being fixed.
- [24:18]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [24:18]
Samantha Irby
Cute that you thought that. Cute that you thought you were improving in any way. But you need to keep seeing me. Don't worry. Yeah.
- [24:28]
Glennon Doyle
My therapist's favorite phrase, once a session. There's so much fertile ground here.
- [24:34]
Samantha Irby
So much fertile ground.
- [24:36]
Glennon Doyle
So yeah, yeah, don't worry about it.
- [24:38]
Samantha Irby
How does that make you feel?
- [24:39]
Glennon Doyle
I'm happy for her because I feel
- [24:42]
Samantha Irby
like she's very excited about all the
- [24:44]
Glennon Doyle
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- [26:55]
Glennon Doyle
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- [28:38]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
Yeah.
- [28:39]
Samantha Irby
So Shrill is based on Lindy West's memoir of the same name, and Lindy and I are very close friends. TV writing is so weird. It was my first TV job and we're in the room and we wanted to take the character from this place of being kind of meek and putting up with a bad dude and putting up with a job that sucked to this point where she was like bold. Well, not all the way bold. You know, we wanted to do more than one season, so a little bit more bold and vocal and sticking up for herself. And so we were brainstorming ideas for Like, a big pivotal experience she could have that would change her. Now, everybody knows, like, in real life, it takes years and years and years and years of, like, looking at tumblers of fat bodies, looking at. You know, it's not just an overnight kind of thing. But Hulu wasn't going to give us, you know, 700 episodes for the first season, so we had to figure out a transformative experience she could have. And so Lyndy and I were talking about all of the different things we had been to that sort of changed our ideas about fatness. And I talked about there used to be this dance party for fat girls in Chicago that would meet, like, once a month. And I would go to that. Clothing swaps, like, lots of different, like, websites and stuff, but there's no way to show that on tv. And Lindy had gone to one of. I think Essie golden started this party called the Chunky Dunk. It may not have been Essie golden had a pool party, and there were other pool parties, and Lindy had gone to a bunch of them. And it was like, let's do that. We have to do that. We want to see that. Showing women who look like us that they are beautiful and making this thing. So we. We landed on a pool party and we figured out what was gonna be in the other episodes. And then when it got to the time of, like, assigning, the showrunner assigned me the pool party episode. And I was like, okay, I'll write it. You know, I was so excited. And so when I was writing it, I was just like, I wanna see almost like a real life Candyland. Like, just beautiful, bright. I didn't want it to be at the dingy hotel pool in, like, a rundown Sheridan or whatever. No shades in Sheridan or some, like, sleazy hotel. I really wanted it just to be, like, almost like a dream, because we deserve that, right? So I wrote it, I turned it in, the writer's room ended. Then I came back home to Michigan, and they all went to Portland to shoot. And so Lyndee was like, you gotta come out for your episode. And I was a little nervous because what you imagine is rarely what the real thing turns out to be. I also did not understand, like, television budgets and that kind of thing. So I was like, I don't know what it's gonna look like. I just hope. I hope it's good, you know, I flew out to Portland, and my biggest concern, though, other than how it looked, was I was like, oh, it's just going to be like Hollywood fat People, it's going to be a bunch of, like, size eights and tens and not size 32s and 40s, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, just it's when you aren't in charge of anything. Like, I'm a very let go and let God kind of person. But also I knew what it could mean if we could do it the right way, if we could do it our way. So we drive out to this country club, and they were like, sam, go look at the pool. So I went and looked at the pool and, like, I almost burst into tears. It was. The set was so beautiful. It was just like all these beautiful floaties and, like, the stands they set up, like, everything looked so gorgeous. And I was like, okay, okay. And then Lindy was like, let's go talk to the extras. And they had everybody inside, like, the ballroom of this, like, beautiful country club. And we go in, and I walked around the corner, and I just saw all of these gorgeous women of all sizes, all abilities. Like, there was a woman in a wheelchair, and there are women on crutches, and there are, like, non binary people. And it just was, like, so beautiful. Everyone's in bathing suits, which was so great. The costume people were designing things on site for people just so they. No one was in a utilitarian, you know, like, basic bathing suit. Like, everyone's in gorgeous caftans and beautiful bright colors. They had hair and makeup for everybody, and it was just like. And there were so many people. And I was like, oh, this is astonishing. Like, I true. I didn't have words. I thought what was gonna happen was. What happens always is they were gonna, like, throw, you know, three size tens in a pool and be like, there's your party. But it was really gorgeous, and everyone was, like, so cared for, and it was really beautiful. And the entire time, I was just sitting in the video village just, like, watching the monitors. I can't believe they let us do this. Like, that was really. My overall feeling was like. It felt like we were getting away with something. I cannot believe they let us do this and then they let us be in it. I don't know if you saw my brief by the pool. And I was like, okay, if I never work on another episode of TV again, it'll be fine. Like, we really did something special. And then it came out, and it just looked so gorgeous.
- [35:16]
Abby Wambach
Magic.
- [35:16]
Samantha Irby
It's so beautiful. And everyone did such a great job. It is like, one of my crowning achievements was getting to work. I have a quick follow up. Yeah.
- [35:26]
Rachel Elizabeth
Who Decides because you say they let us do this. Somebody chose to actually do it in the vision in which you wrote it.
- [35:35]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. Who's that?
- [35:36]
Rachel Elizabeth
You say let go. Let God. But like, somebody in that role in the TV world, it's an important role because you said they got it right. Who is that person?
- [35:44]
Samantha Irby
So Lindy was executive producer, but, you know, there's like many ranks. So I think Lindy was step one in being like, this gotta be good, it's gotta be right. And then Hulu Whoever, the executives were at Hulu Whoever, like, green lights the money. So, you know, TV crew people, they're like hardcore. They're dressed in black, they have lots of carabiners and hats.
- [36:09]
Abby Wambach
They're gangster carabiners.
- [36:11]
Samantha Irby
And in Portland, they like look like Portland, like messenger bike bros. And so I was walking back to the car after the second day of shooting. This guy comes up, he is just like covered in tattoos, real gruff looking, and he's like, are you Sam Irby? And I was like, oh, yes. And he was like, I just wanted to tell you what an honor it is to have worked on this episode. And I was like, okay, that's great. This person who, I mean, I don't know his relationship to fat women, but like, he. I wouldn't guess that he was like a guy who would be in touch with us and our issues and he appreciated it. That was like the very beginning of like, oh, okay, we're doing a thing. It's sort of. It was apparent if you think about it too long. It's like a shame that this was the first event of its kind and that it was so meaningful. Like, the hope is that we can make so many more shows and episodes like this that it's not an anomaly and we don't need to celebrate it. But it was very cool just in that moment to have him acknowledge it. And then since it's been out, to have people be like, that meant so much to me. It's very cool.
- [37:42]
Glennon Doyle
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- [38:53]
Abby Wambach
Speaking of dudes and carabiners, I find this part of you very interesting, okay? You approach friendship in a very different place than a lot of people I know. You can be friends. Well, you're friends with a dude who wears a Budweiser belt buckle unironically.
- [39:12]
Rachel Elizabeth
What?
- [39:14]
Abby Wambach
Right.
- [39:14]
Samantha Irby
Yes.
- [39:15]
Abby Wambach
Like, so this is hard for me to do because, I don't know, I weed people out, I guess. I believe that people's belief systems, as might be manifested in their belt buckles, are parts of their character. Right? So I want to learn from you in this. Tell me how this works for you. Cause you can be friends with anybody.
- [39:35]
Samantha Irby
Yeah, I can. For me, it's like, are you funny? And can you take a joke? Right. That's like, the primary thing is, like, can we have a laugh? Cause all I'm trying to do is be laughing all the time. Like, you know, I'm not a clown, but I like, let's clown around. Let's have fun. So if you can be fun and if you think I'm funny, let's go back and say, if you think I'm funny, you're halfway through the door, right? I'm like, oh. I'm like, oh, you're delighted by something I've said. Come on in, murderer. You know what I mean?
- [40:18]
Rachel Elizabeth
That is totally me. That is you. If somebody laughs at a single joke, I'm like, I have a best friend.
- [40:23]
Samantha Irby
Yes, we are soulmates. Oh, you think I'm funny? Let me give you my pin. You know what I mean? I have the kind of personality that just. I don't know, I can just get along with a lot of people. I think I have been fortunate enough that I haven't ever tried to befriend someone who was so different from me, like, politically, that it's been a problem. Like, I don't have any friends who hate gay people or trans people. I don't have any friends who are, like, hardcore conservatives. I have a lot of, like, friends that I think you'd be like, what do y' all bond over? And then I'll be like, well, I watch wrestling. And then, like, it Explains that. Friendship, right. You're like, oh, you have a very narrow, like, way of connecting with this person. And sometimes for me, that's all it takes is we can have a shared interest in one thing and we don't have to get into other things, you know?
- [41:28]
Rachel Elizabeth
That is so good.
- [41:30]
Samantha Irby
Yeah, it's.
- [41:31]
Abby Wambach
Don't you wish? Don't you wish?
- [41:32]
Rachel Elizabeth
No, that is exactly how I feel.
- [41:34]
Abby Wambach
I know.
- [41:34]
Rachel Elizabeth
And you have a barrier to entry that is so long.
- [41:38]
Abby Wambach
That's why I asked. And I'm okay, I'm trying to learn.
- [41:40]
Rachel Elizabeth
No, I think it's so beautiful because I can. Can connect with somebody on one thing and in a lot of ways I can ignore a bunch of the other shit that I'm seeing that I'm like, well, I like them in this way. Yeah. And this is fun.
- [41:52]
Samantha Irby
Me too. I think so. I'm not gonna guess Glennon, why you have your rules, but I am gonna. So if this is kind of a guess, I'm gonna say that I don't need to have, and this is not shade. An intimate, like, soul relationship with everybody. Right. Like, I don't need to get to the depths of, of people. If we're just like having a laugh or like, we can talk about, you know, this one thing. Sometimes those narrow friendships, like, branch out and grow, but I don't go into things being like, okay, I'm going to meet this person and I'm going to hang out with them and then I want to know everything about them. Some people you don't, you know, you don't want to know. You don't want them to know everything about you. So I think because I don't look at everyone as like a potential, like, soul friend because I'm just like, well, this is just my buddy who I do this with, then it's easier to like, let some of that other stuff fall away. I feel like you want to have deep friendships with everyone.
- [43:05]
Rachel Elizabeth
Yes.
- [43:05]
Abby Wambach
I think that's what I'm usually if someone's in my house watching wrestling. Sam. Which wouldn't happen, but okay, I am thinking I'm side eyeing that person, thinking, is this person one of my soulmates or not? And then when they roll their eyes at the wrong commercial, it's over.
- [43:20]
Samantha Irby
You know, it's really something. And I respect that because, like, the quality of your friendships is probably really great because you love.
- [43:29]
Abby Wambach
Yes. Everyone I'm friends with is on this podcast right now.
- [43:35]
Samantha Irby
Well, so that's the thing is. Well, and I think it feels like rude to call someone an Acquaintance. But that's essentially the difference, right? It's like, we're friends because I know you inside and out. You know me inside and out. Our acquaintances who were just like, oh, Bob, yeah, he's a good time. We don't need to know Bob's soul. And, like. But it feels rude to call Bob an acquaintance. Cause that just is, like, a rude word. So we need, like, a capital F, friend, and a lowercase friend.
- [44:09]
Rachel Elizabeth
Yes.
- [44:10]
Abby Wambach
Yes, we need different words for friends. Yes, we need different words for friends. Because I don't want to say, bob's my friend, because I don't want that to reflect, right? The next thing, Bob says this, and then you're like, wait, why are you friends with that dude? Different words. But don't you think it all goes
- [44:24]
Glennon Doyle
back to your view of life? Like, Sam, your view of life is, I want to find the absurd. I want to experience the absurd. I want to be part of seeing. Being part of this, experiencing this. And so you intersect with people who can bring that out of you or share that experience with you. Glennon's view of life is very different than that. She's like, I'm going to have a very narrow but deep experience of life. And I don't actually want to participate in any extracurriculars, Right?
- [44:53]
Samantha Irby
I do not want any depth whatsoever. I told you, that's where the lava is. We can only dip a toe in there before, like, things get dangerous. So I try to stand near the top of the volcano where it's, like, smoky and sexy and fun. But I only get into the lava with a few people. And I'll tell you why, Sam.
- [45:21]
Abby Wambach
That makes perfect sense.
- [45:22]
Samantha Irby
I'm not gonna put it on them. I'm gonna say that I have, like, that fear of when people really get, like, down and see what's in there, that they're going to be like, oh, bye. And that's one of the hazards I think of, like, being a funny person, not just in life, but in my career, is that sometimes people don't think that lower level exists. And then they are surprised when they get a glimpse of it. And I'm like, all I do is write about depression. How do you think that manifests itself for real? So I think, like, having lowercase F
- [46:02]
Rachel Elizabeth
friends,
- [46:05]
Samantha Irby
it, like, feels good to the ego. It's good to know people. It's good to have people around. But also, I'm not in danger of finding out any of their dark shit, and they're not in danger of finding out any of mine. And thus Rejecting me on account of that darkness.
- [46:24]
Rachel Elizabeth
That's good. It's a safety measure.
- [46:25]
Abby Wambach
So good. I get that. I get that. Do you sometimes feel responsibility to just always be funny and always be doing the thing with other people? No, I. Yeah, like, entertaining them.
- [46:38]
Samantha Irby
I do. It never bothers me until I have a problem and I talk about it to someone who wants funny Sam, and they're like, oh, just laugh it off. And I'm like, no, no. This is the part where you find out that I gotta go to bed for three days about it. Sometimes it takes, like, a little distance. I can always laugh at things. Maybe not in the moment or the next day. Eventually I'll get there. There have been people who can't deal with the in the moment. Like, I'm not over this yet. And then, you know, that's never gonna be your capital S friend. Always going to be a lowercase. Never call that person when you have a problem. Never expect more from them than the surface that you're getting. And I think sometimes, like, people divide themselves into those categories. For you, my friend John, who I met, like, on the Internet forever ago. This was, like, 10 years ago, maybe. I had posted that I was in the hospital and we were just Internet friends then. And he came and visited and was the only person who visited. And I was like, oh, you want to be here during this stuff? Okay, we are real friends. But I never put that pressure on anyone because I know not everybody wants that. I like to do a little sorting of my own and then let people. People do. Sort themselves into their capital F or lowercase F. You know, I love that.
- [48:16]
Abby Wambach
Speaking of capital F, friends, can we talk about your lady a little bit? So your lady. Is it Kirsten or Kirsten?
- [48:26]
Samantha Irby
It's Kirsten. Thank you for. You got it right. Oh, my God, she's. Now she's going to be your lady, since you got her name right, because no one ever guesses she's gonna be like, glennon said what?
- [48:38]
Abby Wambach
Bye.
- [48:39]
Samantha Irby
Okay, I knew it was coming.
- [48:41]
Abby Wambach
Okay, so you two. Didn't you meet? Did she reach out to you?
- [48:47]
Glennon Doyle
She slid into your DMs, didn't she?
- [48:50]
Samantha Irby
Tweeted me. And this was like, back when I was still, like, looking at people saying things to me on Twitter who I didn't know. Now I'm not even on Twitter anymore. But she tweeted that she loved the book, and then we got into one of those, like, tweet conversations. And I'm not a private person, but I do not like to conduct a Public conversation. Like, if we're gonna talk. She kept responding, and I was like, bitch, get into my inbox. I mean, both of them, but get into my inbox. So. Then we started DMing. And then I was like. It reached a level that I was like, is this. This isn't casual anymore. But with women, at least with this woman, it was never like, oh, I want to fuck. It was just like, I'm talking to you all the time. And I was like, okay, I know. I'm kidding, girl. You know? Okay. And then so we just. We graduated to talking a lot. And then at a certain point, I was like, listen, this is getting romantic. Are we. Is this romantic? And she was like, yeah. And I was like, okay, great. And then we. Then we started sort of talking.
- [50:18]
Glennon Doyle
That was brave of you. That was a very brave thing to say. Is this getting romantic? How did you muster that up?
- [50:27]
Abby Wambach
I think that's showing the lava.
- [50:29]
Samantha Irby
That's showing the lava.
- [50:31]
Rachel Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [50:31]
Samantha Irby
Well, we had been talking for so long that I was like, I don't know. And it's hard to know when people, like, want you or want the book you or, you know. And so, like, we had talked past the point where I thought, oh, she's just, like, a fan. This is something else. And. But it was also so much talking that I was like, I cannot be talking to a person who doesn't want to buy me dinner.
- [51:01]
Abby Wambach
I need an ROI on all of this talking.
- [51:04]
Samantha Irby
I'm like, my thumb is getting fractured from texting this person. What are we doing? So then that. I am not brave, but in that moment, I was brave and was like, yes, what are we doing? And, like, I said it in a way that was like, if she was like, oh, we're just talking, it would be. I could, like, laugh it off and, you know, in case I had shown vulnerability too soon. So, yeah, we just started talking. And then I lived in Chicago. She lived in Michigan, and she came and we went to brunch, and I brought a friend because I was like, what if this person. I know.
- [51:45]
Abby Wambach
You did not. You did not. Sam.
- [51:49]
Samantha Irby
So bad. It was some. She roasts me to this day. But my friend left, and then we went to coffee after the brunch, and I was like, okay, this is. This is a.
- [52:02]
Abby Wambach
Did you know, like, that day? Did you. Or was it a slow burn? Or was it, like.
- [52:07]
Samantha Irby
It was slow because she. So she was coming out of a marriage, and she had two kids who were, like, 5 and 7 at the time. So I certainly wasn't rushing to get into that.
- [52:24]
Glennon Doyle
You're like, call me when they're 18.
- [52:26]
Samantha Irby
I still am like, call me when they're 18. One is 16, and I'm like, two more years. Get your ass out of here. No, he's actually, like, really lovely, but I still am like, TikTok, kids, our real life is going to be as soon as you guys leave. So it was. It forced us to be slow. Like, I didn't meet the kids for a year. We really took our time and we lived in different places, so it was good that we really took our time. And I also was really cognizant of, you gotta do your relationship grieving. You gotta do all. I needed her to do all of her stuff and make sure that she was on board. And it was good. We took a long time. And then I was like, oh, your health insurance is better than mine. I'm moving to Michigan.
- [53:22]
Glennon Doyle
Are you done?
- [53:23]
Samantha Irby
I was like, blue Cross, Yes. The U Haul. Let's get married. Yeah.
- [53:31]
Abby Wambach
So what is your life like now? Like, you're in Michigan. You've got the two kids. You do not consider yourself a step parent, is that correct?
- [53:39]
Samantha Irby
I consider myself an adjacent adult who can pay for things and drive to things. My step kids are great. They're really great. They're funny and they're, like, charming. They're all the stuff you want. They've always been good kids.
- [53:59]
Abby Wambach
The problem.
- [54:00]
Samantha Irby
I shouldn't even say it's a problem. It's me. I am not parental. I am not unconditional. I'm very. Oh, you didn't wash that plate after all the money I spent. You know what I mean? Like, the worst. The worst things that you like. You know how, like, when you're a kid, you're like, man, when I'm older and I'm around kids, I'm gonna be so cool. Like, I'm not. I have to stop myself from being like, do you know how much that chair that you're standing up on cost? And I don't say it, but I feel feel in my soul that I want to say it. So
- [54:41]
Abby Wambach
it's so refreshing that you're telling the truth about this. Thank you.
- [54:45]
Samantha Irby
I don't know how parents do it. There was a reason I didn't have kids because I knew that I would just be the worst version. I'd buy the kid everything and do all this stuff, and I'm sure I would teach it to read. But I also would be like, I'm taking that iPad if you don't do exactly what I say. Right now. So I don't think of myself as a step parent because I don't, like, tell them what to do.
- [55:13]
Rachel Elizabeth
Parent.
- [55:14]
Samantha Irby
Yeah. I don't parent. I don't tell them what to do. I don't say, you should study this. Like, we hang out, we watch movies. I'm like their cool aunt who has sex with their mom.
- [55:26]
Rachel Elizabeth
That's great.
- [55:28]
Abby Wambach
Okay. One of my favorite things that you write about is your belief in not fomo, but Jomo. Not the fear of missing out, but the joy of missing out.
- [55:41]
Samantha Irby
Okay.
- [55:43]
Abby Wambach
And I feel like, especially, you know, activities. You said you have finally learned that no one else is ever having a better time than you are. Like, everything sucks, and everywhere everyone is sucks. Never, right?
- [55:54]
Samantha Irby
Never. I would disagree. You are a person who. I mean, I know you love to be in the mix. You love to go to stuff. You love to be there. You love to talk to people. I am in awe of a person like you, but not. I would never want to be that. Or you.
- [56:16]
Abby Wambach
Yes. Or you. Exactly, exactly.
- [56:19]
Samantha Irby
Because the mix. Do it. But I never.
- [56:23]
Abby Wambach
No, the mix is the thing that should be avoided. Yes, the mix.
- [56:26]
Samantha Irby
Yes.
- [56:27]
Abby Wambach
Okay. But it's not that. It's just the joy of missing out on the event you have taught us about. The joy of missing out on having a take on everything. Okay. This is one of my favorite. So Sam's talking about or writing about the idea that she's supposed to have an opinion or a take on every single thing that happens in the world. And this is one of my favorite that ever was said. One of the reasons I give a lot of disclaimers is because we give so much weight to what people say who maybe we should not be listening to. I do want to remind people, don't ask me about the news. I don't watch the news. I haven't read a history book since 1997. I am keenly aware of what I know and what I don't know. One of the things I don't know is anything smart or important that needs to be told to other people. Just take a moment with that sentence.
- [57:19]
Samantha Irby
It's true. It's true. We live in this time of, like, racing to get your take out. And I am always considering the source. And the source is rarely a person who is smart or thoughtful or. You know what I mean? Every time I see an infographic, I'm like, who said that? Where'd they go to school? What's their qualification? I shut the fuck up. I just don't. I am not interested in anything like regular people think they know about big things. You ate at a breakfast place. That was terrible. Tell me about that. I don't want to hear their take on global politics or whatever. Let's leave that to the expert.
- [58:13]
Abby Wambach
It's so freeing.
- [58:15]
Samantha Irby
If you can prove to me that you read a book on the subject that you are pontificating on, then maybe I'll listen. I probably won't, but maybe I'm just. This thing where, like, because someone said it loud, we gotta listen is bonkers to me. I don't know anything. I can tell you I had a Starbucks this morning that was delicious. You could believe that I went to high school in like 40 years ago. How old am I? 42. However many years ago, I graduated at 17. Someone else. I'm not even smart enough to do the math. To tell you how old that I graduated high school.
- [58:57]
Rachel Elizabeth
Your class of 98.
- [58:59]
Samantha Irby
Don't listen to anything I say that I wouldn't. I wouldn't attempt to say anything smart about anything. I can only tell you about my little ant of an experience in terms of, like, this giant world.
- [59:17]
Abby Wambach
Well, I think that aunt of an experience on this giant world has helped so many of us just find the absurd to make the next five minutes a little bit more tolerable. That's what you do for all of us.
- [59:35]
Rachel Elizabeth
And what she just said, though, is so profound about Consider the stores. Like, that is actually really important. We take everybody's word at face value. It's like, oh, this thing was written on my Twitter feed. I say shit to you sometimes. And you're like, who wrote that?
- [59:51]
Samantha Irby
And I'm like, I don't know.
- [59:52]
Rachel Elizabeth
We're all susceptible of believing everything we hear and read. Like, so. I love that.
- [59:57]
Glennon Doyle
But I think the reverse is also equally important. That in this age where everyone is called to be an individual expert on myriad things happening in the world, that it is okay to be a listener.
- [60:10]
Samantha Irby
Yes. Yeah. Yes.
- [60:11]
Glennon Doyle
Not everyone needs to be speaking all the time. It is okay to take your moment and learn your thing and just be a receiver as opposed to a distributor of news.
- [60:24]
Samantha Irby
So smart. No, that. That is it. Just listen. Shut up and listen is the.
- [60:30]
Abby Wambach
Oh, that's our next right thing.
- [60:31]
Samantha Irby
Less. The less sophisticated way of saying that. Shut the fuck up and listen.
- [60:42]
Abby Wambach
And with that, we can do hard things. Love bugs like shut the fuck up. We will see you next time on We Can Do Hard Things. Sam Irby, thank you for this hour and thank you for who you are in the world.
- [60:57]
Samantha Irby
Thank you for having me. What a joy. I'm glad I didn't miss out on this. Yay.
- [61:02]
Glennon Doyle
Also, next right thing, find one person to share your lava with. Oh, just find one. We only need one. You can have friends with all the belt buckles you need, but one for the lava.
- [61:17]
Samantha Irby
I love this so much.
- [61:18]
Rachel Elizabeth
Sam, you're awesome.
- [61:19]
Samantha Irby
You guys, I love you.
- [61:21]
Abby Wambach
Bye, y'.
- [61:22]
Samantha Irby
All.
- [61:23]
Abby Wambach
We are proud to say that We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by us, Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram.