Brandi Carlile Has Returned to Herself

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Brandi Carlile Has Returned to Herself"

We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle, Brandi Carlile, Catherine Carlile, and Abby Wambach
Date: October 23, 2025

Episode Overview

In this emotionally intimate episode, Glennon Doyle welcomes acclaimed musician Brandi Carlile (joined at times by her wife, Catherine Carlile) to discuss Brandi's new album, "Returning to Myself." Together with co-hosts Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle, the Pod Squad explores themes of self-discovery, vulnerability, the tension between introspection and community, and the creative process. Through stories, laughter, and tender introspection, Brandi shares what it means to return to oneself—and how that journey is at the heart of her latest, most personal album.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power and Pain of Self-Returning

• Brandi’s Album Inspiration

  • Brandi describes the album as her most personal work:

    "I'm proud of all of my albums... but I've never loved one so personally... I don't care enough to change a single thing about it. It's got me in some places that I haven't been had access to for a really long time."
    — Brandi Carlile [04:20]

  • The album began with a poem titled "Returning to Myself", written in a moment of intense aloneness in a barn in upstate New York. The solitude was “miserably and utterly alone... It’s a nightmare for me.”
    — Brandi Carlile [09:06]

• Returning as Aloneness and Necessity

  • Glennon asks what’s “in the aloneness” for Brandi, prompting reflection on discomfort and distraction:

    “None of the things I like to do with my hands... I feel I'm wasting time... I feel dormant.”
    — Brandi Carlile [11:32]

  • The lyric: “Returning to myself is a lonely thing to do, but it’s the only thing to do.”
    — [11:49]

Community vs. Self

• Community or Self: The Tension

  • Glennon reflects on how Brandi and Catherine have taught her about choosing community over self, shifting her own focus outward.
    — [09:14]

  • Brandi acknowledges her discomfort with being alone, and explains her comfort with "being alone with people." She distinguishes her style from her British wife Catherine’s social grace:

    “You can come in. There's the fridge. Like, I am playing Zelda right now.”
    — Brandi Carlile [10:37]

Creative Process & Song Meanings

• "Returning to Myself" (title track)

  • Written out of total solitude, inspired by heavy weekends with Joni Mitchell at the Hollywood Bowl, and the realization of being consumed by another artist’s journey.
    — [07:25]

• "Woman Overseas"

  • A song about Catherine, inspired by her ability to deeply connect with others but often not reveal herself:

    "Even married to her, even I am sitting next to this puppeteer... socially graceful and charismatic. I’m proud to walk into every room with her because she just wins the day... but does Kath feel loved?"
    — Brandi Carlile [15:55], [16:41]

• "You Without Me"

  • Sparked by watching her daughter Evangeline’s first soccer lessons and realizing the bittersweetness of watching loved ones thrive independently:

    “That's the you. That’s the one without... me.”
    — Brandi Carlile [23:12]

• “The Long Goodbye”

  • Memoir-like reflection on time, aging, the sweet spot of mid-life and the fear of rushing the ‘second half’:

    "I'm okay having lost those years... I'm writing about my journey, the chaotic, dangerous middle, then the love of my life and my family. I’m so jealous for those years... Don’t speed up the second half of life."
    — Brandi Carlile [41:30]

• On Identity and Separation

  • Glennon probes the album’s repeating motif:

    “Every song is sort of about... can we be known? Are we all alone in here?”
    — Glennon Doyle [49:48]

  • Brandi agrees the ache comes from the illusion of separation, and the songs revolve around our longing to overcome it.

On the “Great and Mighty Me”: Critiquing Self-Focus

• Brandi pushes back on a culture obsessed with individual self-optimization:

  “At least if we’re going to do it... we can remove the blockage at the end of the road so that it’s circular and comes back out into the world again... there’s too much influence to just serve the self... If it bothers you, cut it off... that is seen as growth and evolution... I’m like, no, if you don’t understand, keep asking the question.”
  — Brandi Carlile [54:22]

Vulnerability and Artistic Boundaries

• Brandi on including vulnerable songs:

  “Anniversary... one of those ones that, like, makes my skin crawl... I felt so self-conscious and uneasy... Right up until the final day of turning in the master... I had to make myself calm down by telling myself I didn’t have to put it on.”
  — Brandi Carlile [46:48]

• Catherine’s reaction:

  “She just wrote back: ‘These are two of your best songs. We don’t have to talk about it.’”
  — Brandi Carlile [65:13]

Relationships, Friendship, and Finding Home

• Brandi and Glennon share tender stories about the meaning of home, the sound of visitors (“car wheels on a gravel road”), and learning to be themselves in the presence of others:

  • “My most comfortable place... is being together. Somebody’s coming to be with me.”
    — Brandi Carlile [55:32]

  • Glennon, on her own growth:

    “I have people I can be alone with... people I can still not change for, not perform for. That’s real friendship, a real community.”
    — Glennon Doyle [58:49]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On self-acceptance and creative integrity:

  “Whether that's right or wrong. That's exactly what I meant.”
  — Glennon Doyle [05:24]

• On the meaning of ‘Returning to Myself’:

  “Returning to myself is returning myself to my family.”
  — Brandi Carlile [13:36]

• On art and healing:

  “My gift is like: I’m an unhardener of hearts.”
  — Brandi Carlile [62:08]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–02:35 — Lighthearted opener and Glennon on childhood & power
• 04:12–09:14 — The making of the album, “Returning to Myself” poem, and the barn story
• 10:05–11:49 — Inward vs. outward: Brandi’s way of being
• 13:36–16:42 — The story of “Woman Overseas”
• 21:33–26:17 — The origin of “You Without Me”
• 27:19–30:53 — “War with Time” & growing up
• 31:22–36:14 — The song “Human” and the wildfire sun metaphor
• 40:53–45:23 — “The Long Goodbye,” aging, and the value of midlife
• 49:48–52:14 — The existential core: Are we alone? The “jail of separation”
• 54:22–55:00 — Brandi’s critique of wellness/self-obsession
• 55:19–59:14 — Car wheels on a gravel road: Home, performance, and friendship
• 62:08–66:13 — On being vulnerable in music, “permission to be just a smidge human” in queer relationships
• 67:21–end — Parting words: The only thing to do is to return to ourselves

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Tone & Style

The conversation is raw, intimate, and honest, with moments of laughter, gentle ribbing, and profound vulnerability. The group’s friendship and deep mutual respect create a safe container for reflection and warmth.

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Summary Takeaway

Brandi Carlile’s return to herself is, paradoxically, a movement both inward and outward—a cyclical journey where deeper self-meeting allows for richer connection with others. Through unflinching honesty, music, and community, Brandi, Glennon, and their tribe reckon with the ache of separation and the joy found only through both solitude and radical togetherness.

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Memorable sign-off quote:

“You are free to return to yourselves. I know it's a lonely thing, but it's the only thing.”
— Glennon Doyle & Brandi Carlile [67:21]

Transcript

[Brandi Carlile]

I don't know if it's just like my dykey ness, but like I say, I'll say to like my, you know, seven year old, be like, you look so beautiful, I can hardly talk to you right now. And Catherine's like, that is not the.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right thing to say.

[Brandi Carlile]

Stop talking.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hey, pod squad. I'm sitting in my basement and waiting for Brandi Carlisle and Catherine Carlisle to arrive at my house. They're about to get here. They're about to come down here. And Brandi is about to sit with me and talk to me about her new album, Returning to Myself, which is the most personal portrait of Brandi Carlile's mind and heart that I've ever witnessed. And as Brandy's fan and more importantly, dear friend, I'm so excited for you to meet this side of Brandy. Kath's going to be here, Abby's going to be here, and I just don't think that you're going to miss. Want to miss this conversation because Brandy's about to get more vulnerable and raw than she ever has. And the Carlisle's are people who have changed our lives and who have become family to us. Brandi Carlisle's new album, which is my personal favorite that Brandy's ever written, is called Returning to myself, and it is out tomorrow. When I was little, I was really, really cute. Are we recording? Okay. I was a really, really cute little kid. And then I. And I actually remember the energy of that power. I only remember energetic things. Like, I remember that. The power of that. I remember like a leaning in of attention of a whatever, like a power in the world. And when I got so the kids would say chopped, like, I just, just the acne was so severe and the hair and the. All the things I got. So it was like a dramatic turn. And I could feel energetically the pulling way.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, whoa.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like the power of a beautiful little kid. And then losing all the power. And like, I even felt it. I. I feel like I felt it even from my parents. Like a, wow, what are we going to do?

[Brandi Carlile]

So I don't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

Anyway, Kath sent me the new album a long time ago and I have avoided listening to it. And the reason I avoid listening to your music when it's new is that I always feel like I have like a vase inside of me that is very full. And my job is to make no sudden movements to make sure that the vase doesn't spill out. And your music makes things spill very much so I knew I was going to need some time. I also are Mutual daughter Tish had told me repeatedly, like, when she came home from the studio with you, she said something about this being the best album. And I stopped her and said, do you seriously think this is going to be Brandy's best album? And she said, no. What I'm saying to you is this is the best album ever. And she's not, like, super dramatic about things that she says. So I was like, okay. Anyway, this last Thursday, this last Saturday morning, I Woke up at 7am and I was by myself upstairs and spent hours listening to every song. Although I. All the way through, then over again. And I think that she was right. I think it's the most incredible expression of you. And I'm not musically knowledgeable, so I just want to talk to you about the lyrics and what it all means and, like, what you were thinking.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

What are the thoughts that were. That created this album?

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so fucking. Do you know that it's so fucking good.

[Brandi Carlile]

I mean, I know I'm really, really, really in love with it. You know, I'm hesitating to, like, lean on cliches like, proud of it and stuff like that, but the love I feel for the album is kind of. It's jarring to me, so I want to listen to it all the time. And, you know, I feel awkward saying that, but, like, I think it's good for me because I've. I'm proud of all of my albums and stuff, but I've never, like, loved one so personally that. It's not that I don't care what anyone thinks about it at the end of the day, but it's that, like, I don't care enough to change a single, like, thing about it. And it just. It's got me in some places that I haven't been had access to for a really long time.

[Glennon Doyle]

We have a word for that in writing, which is the word stet. Have you heard about that?

[Brandi Carlile]

No. Tell me.

[Glennon Doyle]

So when I first started writing, I would get all my edits back from my editor, and I would be like, oh, that is correct. And I would just change everything because, like, I thought that mine was wrong and they were right and they knew.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then over time, I would get it back and I'd be like, no. Then I learned the word stat, which in publishing means. I said what I said. It means leave it. Like, even if it's a mistake, it's my mistake. And that takes, like, being so personal in your writing that you're like, whether that's right or Wrong. That's exactly what I meant.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. I take responsibility for it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

No matter what that means.

[Glennon Doyle]

So why did you choose Returning to Myself as the first song? Why is that? What does that mean? Because it feels like what you had to do to write the album.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is Return to Yourself.

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, it was. The first thing I wrote when I put pen to paper was a poem called Returning to Myself. And I didn't know I was starting an album or anything. You know, it was like, I came here to do the Hollywood bowl with Joanie. And the lead up to that was just incredibly challenging for so many reasons. But, like, the main reason was that Joni had returned to herself in such a way that she just chose very difficult music to play at the Hollywood Bowl. She had a point that she wanted to make. She had a stand that she wanted to take. There's even a last stand of sorts for her, you know, because she's already back to painting. But basically, it was hard work for all of us to catch up to where Joni was when she wrote Hejira and learned those songs. And Hijira is an album all about this. This pilgrimage, you know, this kind of, like, journey into self. And so I'm sitting next to her and I'm seeing these lyrics come across the screen. I'm seeing her rediscover her lyrics. And I just had a really profound experience of being totally consumed by the life of another artist and am reading these lyrics about returning to oneself and feeling uncomfortable about it, like, convicted by it, and just kind of almost offended in a way.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know that feeling, like, justifying your way of being.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I don't agree with this, you know, and. And meanwhile, I'm, like, not eating, and I'm just drinking coffee all day long and, like, not sleeping, and I'm just thinking about guitar chords. And so I. I put. I put this trip to go to New York at the end. End of a work trip. I was calling it, like, I was going to end the Hollywood Bowl. I was going to get on a plane, fly to the east coast, meet this guy called Aaron Desner, and write. Write some songs with him. And I didn't know if the songs were for me or if they're from him or somebody else or. Or whatever, but I'm not. I'm not a big co writer. I've never done it. And I want to shake myself out of this, of this way of doing things. So I'm like, end of a work trip, I'll finish the Hollywood Bowl, I'll go meet this nice fella. And when I landed in New York City, it wasn't New York City, it was upstate New York. And I didn't even pay enough attention in my life to know where I was going to be landing. And I ended up driving this rental car out to this middle of nowhere and to this guy's like, barn. And I realized, to my horror and yours, that I had to sleep there in a barn. Yeah, well, it was very nice barn, but it was like I thought I was going to be, you know, in the city at, you know, at a hotel. And, you know, he went to bed, and I went up to this room and realized that I had flown to the east coast by myself without even an instrument. I didn't know what I was doing there. And I was still taken aback by the weekend. And I just sat down and wrote the poem, returning to myself. And I was just so miserably and utterly alone. Miserably and utterly alone. It's a nightmare for me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Why? And, like, what is it? Because I'm. I. You and Cath, truly and deeply have taught me, like, if there's two ways of being Turning inward and outward, like inward to self or outward to community in life. And truly, you two have taught me to live a little more in community. In lots of ways. A lot of the way I do, things have changed. Has changed since I watched how you guys live. Trusting people, losing yourself and other people in a beautiful way. What does. If there's, like, a consciousness that's always shoved either outward or inward, do you feel more comfortable outward? And what does it mean to turn? Like, because you once told me, I don't self reflect. What does that mean? That's all I do.

[Catherine Carlile]

What do you do then?

[Brandi Carlile]

I think I just kind of have a primal, carnal way of being. Like, I. I know how to be alone with people. You know, I sit how I'm gonna sit. I drink what I'm gonna drink. I do what I'm gonna do. I lean where I'm gonna lean, you know, Whereas my wife, she's British, so it's like, you know, if somebody knocks on the door, it's like, yeah, it's.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, you're performing.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, well, and she has a hosting. It's like, do we have the right biscuits? And let's go put the kettle on. And, you know, she's gonna have makeup on and, like, this whole thing. And I'm just like, you can come in. There's the fridge. Like, I am playing Zelda right Now.

[Catherine Carlile]

Or.

[Brandi Carlile]

Or it might be like, let's open a bottle of wine and lean in. What is going on in your life? You know, I have to hear about this new person you're seeing or whatever. It could be a really intense connection, or it could be just a total alone with someone thing. But I don't like alone. I don't. I don't know why. I'm just really uncomfortable with it. And I'm actually now getting to a point because I'm in my 40s, where I'm fascinated by why I'm so uncomfortable with it.

[Glennon Doyle]

So what's in the aloneness? Like, you're sitting in the barn.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you're stuck with yourself with no other distractions. You're not in the city.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

What is in there?

[Brandi Carlile]

I don't know. Like, none of the things that I like to do with my hands and distract myself with. I feel like I'm wasting time. I feel like I'm not getting any juice from anything, and I'm just kind of, like, dormant.

[Glennon Doyle]

So when you say in the song returning to myself is a lonely thing to do, but it's the only thing to do, what does that mean?

[Brandi Carlile]

It was the only thing I could do.

[Glennon Doyle]

So that just means, like, this night, apparently, this is the only thing I can do.

[Brandi Carlile]

No video games, no fishing pole. Just like, you know.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Just a moleskin and a pen and a bunch of sharp pencils. I love sharp pencils, you know.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, so when you say I love you and you and you.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is that Catherine and Evangeline and Elijah at one point?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. I love you and you and you. And returning to myself is returning me to you.

[Brandi Carlile]

What does that mean?

[Glennon Doyle]

What does that mean?

[Brandi Carlile]

I think I've come to the conclusion that I had success in music kind of later in life than a lot of other artists do, and I just got, like, fire hosed with opportunity in a way that really triggered this ambition in me where I just wanted to do everything and be everywhere and take every opportunity, live every day like it's my last. I really don't have a problem staying in the moment. It's a superpower. But I do tend to believe that it only thing that matters is the moment. And so I think I just, like, did everything that I ever wanted to do in, like, six years and realized that maybe returning to myself is returning myself to my family.

[Glennon Doyle]

What is a woman overseas about? Like, you don't know? I mean, I'm deeper and deeper. Kathy just gave me a look. I'm deeper and Deeper, more obsessed with each song. So just don't get straight in. But. Okay. That song is about Kath.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. And I'm. It starts with a line that says, a woman I know, like I went abroad to see. And then the end says a woman no one knows. This is the last line.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

So what are you saying with that song? It's so beautiful. Are you saying that you know Kath and no one else does, or are you saying that you don't know Kath? What are you saying?

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, you know that feeling where it's like you've just, maybe you've sat down with somebody like yourself who's just really engaging and charismatic, who just asks like a lot of questions and the next thing you know, you've just been talking and then you leave and you're like spiraling because you're like, I just talked for two hours.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Brandi Carlile]

And I didn't ask a question. And what was, what is it about that woman? Like, why didn't we go there in, in terms of her, you know, why didn't we scratch the surface of her? How did she trick me? What was this? What is this voodoo? Like, how did I get drawn into this self revealing, over sharing, overly emotional inside out place? Who, who is she? And I mean, I don't mean to over expose my darling wife, but she does that and she does it so effectively, you know, and interested is interesting. So she's very interesting because she's very interested. But I know there's more in there and I, I really felt it in a glaring way when, when we lost her dad. Because every time we go somewhere to sit down for dinner or we go to somebody's house in the evening, I would be like, okay, Cath's going to talk about losing her dad. But she would turn on the, she would flip on the Cath switch and we'd only hear, you know, this poor person would get tricked into this over this, you know. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[Glennon Doyle]

Of course I do.

[Brandi Carlile]

And so I just, I, I wrote the song, I guess, out of like love and frustration and just like, you know, you gotta, gotta open up. And even married to her, even I am sitting next to this puppeteer, you know, who's just so incredibly, socially graceful and charismatic and I'm proud to walk into every room with her because she just wins the day.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, she does.

[Brandi Carlile]

You know what I mean?

[Glennon Doyle]

Everyone knows what you mean by that. Yeah, yeah. But it is interesting because I don't think you ever leave Kath's presence without feeling absolutely loved and amazing about yourself.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's true.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then there is the question of I wonder if Kath felt loved.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's what I'm saying.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's what I'm saying. Amazing about herself. Like. Like, I wonder.

[Podcast Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

But it is quite dominant and that's why it's spelled a woman overseas S E E S because it's like that is a environment that is controlled by a really emotionally intelligent person.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's witchy.

[Brandi Carlile]

It is.

[Glennon Doyle]

I respect it.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, it's kind of hot.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Never change path and now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard.

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[Glennon Doyle]

Me without you? Can you talk to you without me? You without me? I'm sorry, can you talk me without you?

[Brandi Carlile]

A lot of people think say me without you, which is in I think that's interesting, too.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, tell us the origin. How did that start, and what does it mean? What is it about?

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, it's funny how many songs in this album start with you and Abby and Tish, but that one did. Don't you remember?

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, I know human. What? How did that one start? Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. Well, I came here to work with Elton, and you and Abby took. Started taking Evangeline to her soccer lessons. You know, because we do things in a community. We do life together. We're, like, very real friends. And I was gonna take her to, like, she'd done, like, one practice. She was totally. You know, Abby was, like, doing the pep talks, the whole thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

She was like, got so invested so fast, and she wouldn't come to Vegas with me to go do the Pink shows. And I was. I was, like, telling you backstage at Tish's show, actually, of all places, I was telling you. Yeah. And I watched her walk over to the team, and she had this, like. Her shoulders were different, and she was like, you know, she gave me, like, a thumbs up, and she just walked away from me. And then she had this whole other personality while she was, like, addressing these kids, and it was so vulnerable, but, like. And I was like, there you are. That's. That's the you. That's the one without, you know, without me. And you're like the you without me. And you stop me and you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Are you serious?

[Brandi Carlile]

You.

[Glennon Doyle]

You. I remember we talked about this. I didn't know we.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, you stopped me and you. And you said, well, like, wow, think about that. And I went straight back that night and got in bed and just wrote that whole song.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so amazing because. And it's so parallel because I. When I see Tish doing music that is clearly you without me. She is always. I have no idea where can you fathom. But it's the same like you with Eva and soccer.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

It feels to me like, you know, the Geppetto and Pinocchio. Geppetto's like, he's a real boy. You just watch, like, your person come to life and be something that you who didn't contribute.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

To them.

[Brandi Carlile]

And you're like, I would be so terrified to do that. What is going to happen to you?

[Podcast Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yes.

[Brandi Carlile]

And I can't even reach you, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. You're in a world where I cannot go. Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

And it almost. It almost doesn't matter how small. The thing is, like, the people that have come up to me with the you without me stories now that's my favorite part of about my job is the way that my meaning universalizes and becomes someone else's meaning. It's. And it's like I get such joy out of hearing, you know, a dad come up to me and be like. I was on the dance floor last night with my little girl and she like, asked for some time and she joined another group of little girls. And I watched her try to move her body and look like everyone else and take this big risk, you know, right in front of me. I couldn't reach her. She didn't even want me there. And I don't know what this feeling is. And I'm like, that's the you without me feeling.

[Glennon Doyle]

And the dream is like one of the lines in that song that makes you want to jump off a cliff is the part that's. Give me a quick thumbs up before you go. I mean, we just dropped Tish off from college and when I listened to that song, all I was thinking about was when we closed the door. I mean, Tish and I are not unemotional people. So it. We were emotional and it was all of us. And I kept thinking, please just give me that little thing, like, I'm leaving. Just please, like make eye contact. Or like just the little thing that's.

[Brandi Carlile]

Like, just turn back. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Something.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that's some. She did.

[Brandi Carlile]

What'd she do?

[Glennon Doyle]

It was just a look in her eyes. It was like an extra. Bless you, Kath. It was just like an extra second of like, I understand what this moment is. And like, mom, you can do this. It wasn't like, tish, you can do this.

[Podcast Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was a moment of. I understand. I'm marking this for us. I'm clocking this between the two of us with this tiny gesture. And you've got this. To me, is what it felt like. Yeah, I've got this.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, I could see her doing that. I feel like the thing with. I mean, your guys relationship is so unique with all of your children. But there's this thing with you and Tish that I can really identify with where you have such a spiritual similarity, you know, the power of synthesis, understanding what's potent and what's important about a really big thing. Debilitating empathy, you know, like a calm, quiet sort of wisdom that doesn't really have a bunch of judgment in it in all of these things. But then. And you're both artists, you're both writers, but she's this different kind of artist to you, so you're gonna see her singing as this, like, scary superpower.

[Glennon Doyle]

Mm. I do.

[Brandi Carlile]

You know. I bet. I bet you do. I can't.

[Glennon Doyle]

I do. Can you tell me the story of war with time? Because Tish did, and it blew my mind. The airplane.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, that. Oh, that's just one of the stories with Angela.

[Glennon Doyle]

Then tell me the whole thing, too. Whatever. You want to talk about that?

[Brandi Carlile]

No, that's a cool. That's a really specific story that I remember from. You know, I didn't go on an airplane Till I was 17 years old, and that's like. That's quite an age, I think, too. And I was alone, and I was just flying to Idaho. But it was like that feeling of when a plane takes off and it lands. Nobody can. Nobody tells you about that. Like, you can't be warned about it. And, you know, it was also pre 911 when I flew for the first time, and then, like, the second or third time I flew, I was going to the east coast. And that's like a whole other thing. And it was, like, right when JetBlue had put, like, TVs in the backs of seats, and I. That was a whole other thing, everyone. It was like, this amazing technology. You can see, like, live news, live tv, and there was a plane that was landing somewhere east, and the landing gear hadn't had turned and stopped, and so the wheels weren't facing the right direction, and this plane, like, circled around and. Until it had to land, trying to figure out a way to get the landing gear to go back. Well, the news had picked up on it and was sensationalizing what was going to happen to the plane when it landed. They were doing, like, cartoon, you know, reenactments, preenactments, if you will, about what would happen to the plane if this thing was a stopper and showing the plane breaking apart and tilting one side and the wing breaking off and ending in, you know, a fiery death. And. And, like, about halfway through their campaign of, you know, morbid attraction, they had realized that the people that were up in this plane could see what they were doing because it was a JetBlue flight. And I saw something in the media that I'd love to see now where it collectively took accountability for what it was doing and changed the whole sentiment to kind of that post 9 11, like, galvanized, you're gonna be okay. We're all behind you. You know, kind of, like, messaging. And I just remember staring at a screen in the airport wondering what was gonna happen to that plane when it landed. And it was absolutely fine. It shot like, you know, flames out to the side. But the impact, like the takeaway lesson for me was how damaging the collective of people can be and then how healing it can be if it wants to be. And it was just such a message for like a 19 year old, 20 year old, I don't know how old a kid, you know? And I also made me feel like I'm not home anymore. Like I'm in the big world now, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

Is that the moment? That's what a war with time is about.

[Brandi Carlile]

It happened. That's what I mean about the broken wheel, you know? But when I landed in New York City for the first time, I just was so grown up. It was like, this is it. I've arrived as an fully functioning adult. And I think anybody that lands in a really big city for the first time feels that way. But New York has a specialness to it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

And I just have this thing where it's like, that was the moment for me, like, that was the turning point. And I know that, like, our kids are gonna have it wherever it is and whatever it is. And I want that, but, like, I'm never gonna want it consciously. So don't even ask me. Yes, just do it. You're smiling with so much recognition.

[Glennon Doyle]

I understand 100%. What. I think that one of the things that the kids and I have been talking about is how we haven't. I'm sure that it's out there, but we haven't felt a lot of music right now that really feels timely. It feels like of the moment. And this album really deeply does to me. And what do you. What does the song Human? What are you trying to tell people with that song?

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, the reason I sent you that song when I first wrote it, as you know, because I think I feel like I know you so well and I think, you know, and everybody's always known that you have this kind of canary in the coal mine thing about you where it's like you feel the weight of the world and the pain of the world and really sort of like unquantifiable ways that I think could be, you know, insurmountable at times. And I was just feeling that way too that night.

[Glennon Doyle]

And.

[Brandi Carlile]

I started thinking about. This was before the fires too. Just, only just. I started thinking about, like, the destructiveness of fires and how relevant and prevalent they are, you know, and there's nothing good about them. It's just like there's no silver lining, if you will, but in the Pacific Northwest, when the fire wildfire smoke Comes north, we get these wildfire suns, and they're just like big, beautiful, bright red bulbs of apocalypse. And they're so beautiful, and you can look right at them for once. And there's just something about that that is, I guess, the only byproduct of something so destructive that you can just sink your teeth in and go, okay, there's one good thing. And it's like, I feel like while we're fighting, while we're working, while we're problem solving, while we're living through a profoundly difficult time in human history, we have to remember that we're here for such a split second, just like the blink of an eye, that whatever tiny thing makes us happy and. And feel good and remind us of how innocent we molecularly are. Like, at our core, we have to do that thing, and we have got to find a way to be human and soft and. And. And filled with joy in whatever environment we're in.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

And that's why I sent you that song, because it was the night before the election, and I just felt you.

[Glennon Doyle]

You could feel from.

[Podcast Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Halfway across the country, I kind of could.

[Brandi Carlile]

You know, and the responsibility that you feel for other people and that you take for other people. Like, you get on the phone and you. A woman overseas with somebody for an hour until they're empty and they're light. You know, you do that.

[Glennon Doyle]

I told the story about the forest fire sun.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And wildfire, so. The wildfire sun. Well, the first thing you said was, have you ever seen a forest fire? I'm like, freddie, is it a screensaver you can send me? Obviously, I haven't seen it.

[Brandi Carlile]

So I sent you a wildfire.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Then you sent me this one. But I told that story from stage on tour a lot. And I realized halfway through, I was telling it like. So Brandy was saying, yes, all this. This is a bad paraphrase, but, yes, all this horror is happening. But have you ever seen a sun in the. In a forest fire?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then I realized halfway through that I need to change it, because that's not what you were saying, and that's not what that moment is. It's not a But it's like that thing doesn't happen. It's not like, look over here or look over there. It's like, no, no, no. That. That sun doesn't happen without the fire.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like both together.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's not even.

[Brandi Carlile]

It's like, look over your end. Look over there.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because you're not.

[Brandi Carlile]

You're.

[Glennon Doyle]

What? You weren't saying wasn't spiritual bypassing it wasn't. I know it's sad, but there's other happy things you can look at instead. No, it's a way of looking at it that's like there's actually some shit that wouldn't even be so beautiful if it weren't on fire.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. Oh, thank you for recognizing that. I'm always worried that, like, people think I'm Pollyanna or something looking for, like, a silver lining, and I'm really not. I'm just saying we have to feel all the things within the moment. We have to meet the moment in every way, but it can't eclipse, like, our very short lives.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right. Yeah. And now it's time for our ads.

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[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, can you tell us a little bit about the long goodbye?

[Brandi Carlile]

The long goodbye? Well, it's like a memoir in three and a half minutes, isn't it?

[Glennon Doyle]

It sure is. It'll getcha. It'll getcha.

[Brandi Carlile]

Did it get you?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, it got you.

[Brandi Carlile]

Which bit got you the most?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, first of all it got me from before I listened to it. Tish just told me the concept and.

[Podcast Sponsor/Ad Reader]

It ruined my life.

[Glennon Doyle]

Just the knowing the concept of the song. Which can you Describe what can you describe in your own words what the concept of the long goodbye is?

[Brandi Carlile]

It's really similar to. Well, it ends with the same sentiment that human sort of begins with, which is just that, like, you know, I've had this life where the first half of it was really chaotic and really formative, and that for some reason, it's awarded me some perspective in the second half of the. My life and more peace. I think everybody thinks of their childhood is like, the peaceful time, you know, don't grow up too fast, you know, don't squander your youth. I'm like, give me every line, you know, let my hair get thin. Let it all happen. Because actually, this is the sweet spot, you know, and recognizing that right now is me, like, dragging my feet on the ground to slow the second half down. That's the bit I want to slow down. And so I'm okay, you know, having lost those years or let those years sort of be behind me. And I'm writing about. I'm writing about that journey, and I'm writing about the chaotic, dangerous middle bit where anyone can die, where you can lose yourself to the hormonal takeover of your brain or whatever or substance, and, you know, all of the danger that we kind of, like, feed off of in that elbow of life. And then I'm writing about my, like, the love of my life and my family and how, like, I'm so jealous for those years. Like, I want all that time back, you know, to be with Kathy. But I would have screwed it up. We would have screwed it up. We would have fought over something small and wouldn't know each other, you know? So I'm just saying, like, don't speed up the second half of life. Don't pine for your youth, you know, don't worry about going up too fast. Worry about being worried about growing old. Like, there's nothing to worry about. Like what?

[Glennon Doyle]

The only thing we have to worry about is worry itself.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yes, exactly. I. I just think that, like, one of the most profound things that I've ever seen, and this actually occurred to me when I was writing a long goodbye. In the end, when I say, let it go, keep it light, let it snow, let the wind blow all night. It's only life after all. It's a blink of an eye. It's a long goodbye. Is Meg and Andrea. It's that moment in the doc when the, you know, the old filters on the phone, that's just. Everybody needs to see that. Everyone needs to see that. Who. Who is thinking about Aging as a problem.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. All Andrea wanted to do is get old.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How lucky are we if we can take that from Andrea and. And just change the way we think right now?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Like, I just want to get old. Thanks to Andrea. That's such a gift.

[Glennon Doyle]

So huge.

[Brandi Carlile]

And Andrea left behind so many gifts. But, like, that's. I think that's my favorite one.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. I just want to get old. And then talking to Andrea about bodies, when Meg was talking to Andrea about bodies and body size and body shape and how it looks an image, and Andrea said, I don't care what my body looks like. I just want to have a body. Yup. Same that hit.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, that really hit. That is like, I want that moment in that documentary for everyone. Like, I wish. I wish those two sentiments specifically. Like, on everyone.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. What is. What is your favorite song on the album? And also I want to know what Anniversary is. How do you. How do you. What was the origin of Anniversary and what is it about to you?

[Brandi Carlile]

Nobody sits down with the songwriter. It's like, what is Anniversary about? It's like, it's so. It's such a friend conversation. No, it's just.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's.

[Brandi Carlile]

We're having such a friend conversation. I love it so much. My favorite song on the album is impossible for me to choose.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Brandi Carlile]

It is impossible for me to choose. Every one of those songs, to me, is like, cuts like a knife. Like, they are so important to me, those songs. And that's new. I am 44. Katherine just reminded me I'm not 45. I'm 44. I've never felt about songs the way I feel about these 10 songs. Like, I won't take any shit about him either. Like, I won't take any criticism. Good for you taking it. I'm not gonna read any reviews. I don't want to know. So I don't. I don't have one.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Brandi Carlile]

I could tell you why I love each one, but, yeah, I don't have a favorite because some of them I. I'm uncomfortable with. You know, Anniversary is one of those ones that, like, makes my skin crawl. Why that I wrote it and I didn't like singing it and I. I felt like, so self conscious and uneasy with it as a concept. It was really the inside part out, and I just didn't really know that I wanted to do that. And in fact, right up until. As a writer, I think you can probably relate to this. Right up until the final day of turning in the master, I told myself, I don't have to put it on there.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

I don't have to. I can take it off and do a cover or I can just be a. Nine songs. There's nine song albums. Right up until the moment that I said approved on the master. I had to, like, make myself calm down by, like, telling myself I wouldn't. Didn't have to put that song on there. It's so weird.

[Glennon Doyle]

What is it about it?

[Brandi Carlile]

It's just. I don't know. I don't like how stream of consciousness it is. Just really don't want you to see that far in to my thinking.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's so interesting.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

So wonderful to see that far into your thinking. It's so good. I promise. I'm not saying it's a good experience for you, but it's a good experience for us. Wow. Okay. So when I was listening to the album, I kept thinking what I wrote down all over my whiteboard, like, A Beautiful Mind situation by the time Abby had woken up is I was thinking about this thing that happened that I've told the Pod Squad many times when Tish was, like, seven or something. I woke up in the middle of the night and she'd run into my room. She used to do that in the middle of the night and, like, stand above me very creepily until I woke up. It was very strange. Yeah. And so she was doing that thing, and she had this, like, terrified look on her face when I opened my eyes and I said, what's wrong? And she said, I woke up and I'm all alone in there. And it was dark, and I'm all alone in there. And I said, that's fucking sleeping. That's what sleeping is. Go back. And she said, no, Mom, I'm all alone in here. Like, I'm all alone in here, and you can't get in and I can't get out. And it was like her first existential crisis. Like, she had returned to herself enough to notice that what's inside of us is, like, this separation from each other. And that was terrifying for her. And I felt like, as I was listening to every song, that every song is sort of about that. It's like, can we be known? Are we all alone in here? Like, Woman Overseas is about Cath, but it's not really. It's about you, whether you know her or not. And, like, Joni is, like, about, do you know her or not? Are you separate? Or Eva is like, the separation or Nobody knows us. It's like, over and over again, like, are we all alone in here? Do I know you? Do you know me? Do we ever really know each other?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, when you return to yourself, it's like, you remember, I'm all alone in here. Like, I'm just like a little cup of the ocean.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I'm stuck. Isn't there's like a line in there about, like, too much truth and if I'm something about being in jail, if.

[Brandi Carlile]

I return to myself, couldn't I find myself in jail?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, it's like the jail of separation. Am I making this up?

[Brandi Carlile]

No, you're not making it up. It's true. It's all really true.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so interesting. So when I'm listening to the long goodbye and it makes me want to, my every ache in me is just like. I'm thinking, okay, the way I can handle this being true, which is that life is a long goodbye. Relationships are a long goodbye. Like, we. We make. We get together and then we're like, I guess we'll do this life thing, which is we'll walk each other to the end. We'll walk each other home. As Ram Dass used to say, then I have to believe that the reason that ache is inside of us is because being that separate is actually not the ultimate truth.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, right. That, like, it's not.

[Glennon Doyle]

The long goodbye ends with, like, the first real hello, which is no more cup, all ocean, like, all back together.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that's why I think that's.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's no more cup, all ocean, all back together. Yes. That's what I believe.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you just do the all ocean now.

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, no, I'm not. I'm evolving. You know, I withdraw. You know, sometimes my cup is tequila. Sometimes I'm, you know, I'm cheeky and carnal and self serving in ways that I don't mind. But that is the ultimate truth for me, and I know that. But I do feel like we live in a time, in an age where the pursuit of the self is seen as a virtue. And like the evolution that's like, you know, closest to enlightenment is this inward journey. And the parts of that that I know are true bother me, but the parts of it that I know are not true bother me more.

[Glennon Doyle]

Tell me more. Because that's it. It's like, yes, you can find God and truth and self, and yes, you can find God and truth in others.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

But it can't be either or, right?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

So what part? I mean, there's a line that's like the great. I don't want to bow to the great and mighty me. That. Is that what you're saying? That the emphasis, the cultural emphasis on individual, on self, that there's something missing there? Yeah. Feel true.

[Brandi Carlile]

What is it? Evolving, turning inward. It's an easy way to be. Only kneeling at the altar of the great and mighty Me. It's like that, that in some ways the journey into self, it just ends with, you know, it ends in there. It's a dead end road. You know, at least if we're going to do it, and we probably should do it, we can remove the blockage at the end of the road so that it's circular, it comes back out into the world again, you know, and actually I think that's what the philosophy, you know, is getting at. But it's just that I feel like there are too many voices. There's too much noise, there's too much wellness, there's too many. There's too much influence to just serve the self. If it bothers you, cut it off. If you don't understand it, stop having the conversation. You know, it's like. And that is seen as growth and evolution in like the day and age that we're living in. And I'm like, no, if you don't understand, keep asking the question. You know, not to the point where we're getting into territory of like self harm, you know, by like maybe going back to a toxic person or going back to a toxic place and trying to re. Engage and trying to reengage. That's different. That's where we are veering into, into something that, that's hurting us. But I do believe that the pull toward others, toward the sacrificing of the self, of the identity, it frees us. It frees us from our ego. Because self and identity are like the problem. That's the cup, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. It's like, which. What self? What are you talking about? Are you talking about ego? Are you talking about personality? Or are you talking about like the soul, the part that is connected to everyone else? The whole I and the father are one self, which is a different self.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, yeah. I am this. I am this. I am this. And I'm like, I am yours. I am yours. I'm yours.

[Glennon Doyle]

Shit. Okay, you know how you tell that story about how when you were little, or it might have been last year, I don't know. But when you hear the sound of.

[Brandi Carlile]

Gravel car wheels on a gravel road that you can see car wheels on a gravel road. My favorite, my favorite songs of all time.

[Glennon Doyle]

And tell us why. Tell us the gravel. Because I want to tell you what gravel means to me after you tell yours.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, okay. Well, I want to know. I just. I've always had a dirt road. I've always lived on a dirt road. I still live on a dirt road that I could probably afford to pave, but I don't. I love the sound of car wheels on a gravel road because they just. Somebody's coming. Somebody's coming. And, like, what's it going to be? Where are we going to go? What are we going to do? What are you going to say? Are we going to, like, eat together? We're going to fight? Are we going to, like, watch a movie? Or are you just going to sit quietly and read your book? But we're going to be together. Somebody's coming to be with me. You know, something new is about to happen. That's car wheels on a gravel road to me.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I grew up in a house with a long gravel road.

[Brandi Carlile]

Okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

Forever. Long gravel road. And the sound of gravel, of car wheels on a gravel road to me makes me clench and makes me, like. So for me, when I heard car wheels on a gravel road, it meant I gotta. I'm. I'm. I can't be myself anymore. Like, I. I automatically had a feeling of, I have to get up. I have to do something. I used to, like, be relaxing, and then I'd get up and look. Try to look busy. Like, in my family, it was like, you. You don't lay around. Like, I was raised by a football coach. It was just like, no pain, no gain. You're out.

[Catherine Carlile]

You didn't lay.

[Glennon Doyle]

Nobody laid.

[Brandi Carlile]

Okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

But whenever you. I hear you tell that, I'm like, oh, my God. Like, will you say, somebody's here? And I think somebody's here. Wow. Like, my performance self has to come out. It's just so interesting to me that you can have two such different responses. Yeah. To your most comfortable place. I guess mine would be alone, and yours is like, what's gonna happen? And I'm like, yeah, what's gonna happen?

[Brandi Carlile]

Okay, but when. Okay, so let me go. I want to. I actually want to get into this. So when you would hear the car wheels.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

On a gravel road, were there ever times where you were like, oh, God, okay, look busy, brush my hair, put on clothes, wake up and be that Glennon. You know, like, snap out of the aloneness, that space that you go into when you read and when you're like, you know, using your amazing fucking mind. Like, was there ever a time that that company Surprised you, though, and you were like, I didn't want this, and I'm so glad they're here. I'm so glad to be with this person now. Was there ever a time when you were surprised by how you felt when that face ended up at your door?

[Glennon Doyle]

Only when I have been in recent learning how to not perform.

[Brandi Carlile]

Okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I think that Abby and I have now found, like, a little ragtag group of people that when I hear the equivalent of their tires, I feel like I can just continue. Okay. That I don't have to change.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that feels like maybe the most amazing thing that's ever happened to me somehow is finding people that, like, when you say I have people I can be alone with, what I hear is, oh, I get that now. Like, I have people that I can still not change for.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Not perform for.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I guess that's real friendship, a real community. So now I think I get it, but I just think of what you have taught me and you and Kath have taught me about finding love and community and space with others. And in an outward way, that has truly changed the way that Abby and I do things.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I just always think about the gravel as the difference. Like, you're learning to be comfortable with stuck in a barn, and I'm learning to be comfortable with people are coming and I'm not stuck in a barn.

[Brandi Carlile]

Get me to a bar instead. Well, I mean, we've stayed at each other's houses before, you know, like, we've spent at nights with each other, like, in succession. You've been to my house and stayed. I've been to your house and stayed. And so we've had, like, pajama hangs and stuff like that, you know, and watch TV and. And so, like, we have found ways to, like, drop down with each other, like our two families. But I'm always conscientious about the temptation, even that I feel about wanting to extract the Glenninness from your mind. Like, when I'm. When I'm with you, it's like in that mind are some of the most powerful and interesting sentiments, like this perspective that's going to be expansive. It's like you. I could. Talking to you is like Binging, my favorite show. And so I have to, like, fight the temptation to not switch you on and pull from. From you, you know, And. And it makes me wish that, like, because sometimes I do. It makes me wish there was, like, a thing where it was like, what Glennon likes for fun is A, B, and C. Because Then I could do that for you.

[Glennon Doyle]

That makes sense. And give back.

[Brandi Carlile]

You know what I mean? If I could take you fishing, then I wouldn't feel so bad about like calling you to talk through my family member who's an alcoholic and that I need to have a refresher and how to deal with that. I wouldn't feel so bad about calling you to like work through a problem, you know, because I would be able to take you fishing or like play Monopoly with you or whatever it is that's like. Glennon does this for fun, but what you do for fun is like, it's like, what is it?

[Glennon Doyle]

It's a good question. And you did say to me the other day, which I have been thinking about non stop it possibly you're. You didn't say it this way. You can never say it this way. But it was something like, maybe you're so upset because you're not obsessed with. You're not obsessed enough with anything else.

[Brandi Carlile]

Except maybe you're not obsessive enough, which.

[Glennon Doyle]

By the way, I can't stop thinking about. Really. You have this album like you're surviving this time.

[Brandi Carlile]

This is what Kaf says do.

[Podcast Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because you are making this album, which I'm looking at and thinking, that's so fucking weird because this album is everything everyone needs to hear right now. And it will be so healing. And I know that I'm not like, it will be. It's going to hit everybody where what they need to hear in this moment. And you were obsessing and making it during this time. And there's just something so beautiful about that. I did, I told Abby about that. I'm like, oh, I just need to start writing again maybe.

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, you're doing it too. It's like my tools are so simple. Like, I know what my tools are. And you're right. Like I, I feel like I'm helping. I'm helping. I'm using my tools and I'm doing my gift and I'm helping because like, my gift is like I'm an unhardener of hearts. I'm a. I'm this, I'm that. And like I know what my purpose is and I've got my tools in my right hand and my left hand and so I'm going to work. And yeah, there is something really single minded and focused about that. But you're doing that too all the time. And so is Abby, you know, your mind expanders.

[Glennon Doyle]

Unhardener of hearts. That's so good. What do you want? What? That we haven't talked about. Do you want people to know about this album or you right now or anything?

[Brandi Carlile]

I mean, this is why, you know, I wanted to come here. This is why I wanted to talk to you. It's like we could talk about credits and who played on it and who produced it, and we could talk about technical stuff and recording studios and vintage guitars all day, you know, and I'm gonna do that for the rest of my day. But this is where, you know, we come to. To talk about this. About this angle on the album. And so I'm really only interested in talking about what you're interested in.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you think that this whole returning to yourself is something that you're going to continue? Are you just going to be like, that's good. Onward. That was a nice experiment, that one.

[Podcast Sponsor/Ad Reader]

And.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, yeah, that one.

[Brandi Carlile]

This will be the only album probably like it. Like, when I feel. Yeah, yeah. I. I mean, I've never. I've never been an observational songwriter. I am self revealing in my. In my songs, but there's only ever like two or three or four of them on an album, you know, because I'm in a family band and. And it's. That's a really beautiful way to be, and I love being that way. But this is that one time where it just isn't like that. And. And I don't. Yeah, I don't think that this continues.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, so, you guys, what Brandi is saying is that you need to pay close attention to this album. Right. We will not pass this way again.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. This is the last time I'm getting in that barn.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Next time I'm in that barn, I'm gonna have a fishing pole. I'm gonna have a Zelda game. I'm gonna have at least four other people.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love you. I love you guys so much. Thank you. It's a gift that. To reveal as much as you did. I just have one last question. Was it tricky? Like, was it uncomfortable at all to. To write as honestly as you did? Like, I'm thinking in particular about you and Kath.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, well, Catherine, that's a really good question because first of all, you have so much in common with Kath. I know you're going to totally understand this, but Catherine is such a writer.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, she is.

[Brandi Carlile]

And she's such an artist that I sent her two of these songs, the ones that are right on the edge of. Okay. And I said, we'll probably have to talk about these, you know, but she just wrote back, these are two of your best Songs we don't. We don't have to talk about it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, my God. She just really respects you as an artist.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. And I really respect her as an artist. And I. When I listen back to those songs now, I hear how enamored I am with Kath. It's just. It's about being enamored. It might come off in another way, but it. It is what it is.

[Glennon Doyle]

It doesn't.

[Brandi Carlile]

I said what I said.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's a. It's a real. Also, it's a real gift to the lesbian community because we're just always having to act perfect.

[Podcast Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, we've, like, we have the most perfect non human marriages ever so that we don't let down our tokenism as proof it can work or whatever the hell that thing is.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

So. God, it just felt it. It is. It is a permission to be just a smidge human.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

In relationship, too. It's a gift.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, I think so, too. I. I hope that I can't control how people take it, but I hope they take it that way and they. They know that there is a glimpse into the. I don't like the word normal, but into the, like, relatability of, like, all relationships so that all relationships can be valued equally.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. I also think, you know, you did it if the person. Even if you're telling the truth about them, but the person seems even cooler after the song's over. Like, Kathy seems even cooler after that song's over. It's like. Like a witchy energy of, like, which is what she is. But that's how I felt. I was like, God, she's so cool.

[Brandi Carlile]

She is cool, man. Yeah, she's as cool as they get. She's too cool.

[Glennon Doyle]

She's over there saying, oh, God.

[Brandi Carlile]

Is your mic muted because it's red?

[Glennon Doyle]

No. They would have told me that. Okay. All right, we're done. You guys are free to go. You are free to return to yourselves. I know it's a lonely thing, but it's the only thing.

[Brandi Carlile]

It's the only thing to do.

[Glennon Doyle]

Bye. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us. We can do hard things on Instagram and we can do hard things show on TikTok.