Jessica Yellen (9:28)

Thank you, Glennon. That was the most beautiful description and introduction. Thank You.

Amanda Doyle (9:33)

Oh my gosh. Can you talk to us a little bit about this new third way? Because often my experience in life is that I lose my mind. Like what I explained earlier. I believe this is my personal problem, right. I take it to therapy, I take it to all the places, I try to figure out what is wrong with me. And then when I start to talk about it, I realize, oh, no, this is a universal problem. And based on the mass exodus from news that has happened over the past year, it strikes me that perhaps a lot of people were feeling the way that I was feeling. Can you explain to me your take on that and how you think it needs to be done differently and how it can be done differently?

Jessica Yellen (10:26)

Yes. And I'll tell you, my favorite compliment comes from therapists who tell me, I prescribe your news to patients who can't take it but want to stay engaged. So you are not alone. There are a lot of folks out there who are feeling that way. My general view is the news exists to inform citizens. In a democracy, the news is the only private business explicitly protected in the US Constitution, the free press. Because the founders of America believed a free press is essential to have a well functioning democracy because you need your citizens to be informed. But if the news is panicking people or the news is giving people so much trauma fatigue that they're operating out of fight or flight or not informing them or all the other things, it's not doing its job and our democracy is not stable. Right? So I spent so long in the news noticing how my own nervous system was responding. I spent basically 20 years, 17 as a TV news journalist or writer, and I would talk to regular voters, and by the end of the time I was in TV news, they would scream at me. I was always interviewing undecided women voters and they would scream at me, saying, you know the news, you give me a heart attack, you panic me, and then you go to commercial break.

Amanda Doyle (11:49)

Yes.

Jessica Yellen (11:49)

I have no idea what's going on. It's like walking into a dinner party. Halfway through, you use this lingo, you have these names, you talk about terms, and then all of a sudden I'm watching a commercial and they say, I leave with more questions than answers. And people would say to me, I'd rather watch the crime channel. And I'd say, why? And they'd say, because at least at the end there's a resolution. And so I started to realize there's a fundamental problem here, that we need to re engineer the language we use in the news, the way we frame Things is designed, as you said, to panic people, not because people in the news are cruel or they want to be mean. I have a whole presentation on it. But the bottom line is the industry learned that's how they can drive engagement, drive up ratings and profits. Right. And so it became industry standard to panic folks or build on your outrage or rage, just negativity. And I started to think about, are there other ways to drive interest and engagement that aren't those negative qualities? Because those negative qualities drive rage, fear, disengagement, polarization, depression. Depressed people are more likely to engage with disinformation. It goes on and on. And I'm from LA and in la, I grew up around Hollywood. And Hollywood drives interest and engagement, sometimes through fear, but largely through compassion and empathy. And I thought, how can we use compassion and empathy to engage people in the news?

Amanda Doyle (13:23)

Wow. So before this recording Pod Squad, Jessica called me and basically said, because not only is she a beautiful reporter, but she also knows her friends well. And she basically said, in a nutshell, how are you going to stay calm? Like, don't forget calm, news has to be calm. So talk to us a little bit about witnessing mind and what you're going to bring to us some news. What can we bring? This is a mutual. The Pod squad will need to bring something specific. As you bring something specific, what does the listener need to bring to this sort of news to make the outcome what we want it to be, which is clarity, calm and efficiency in what to do next.

Jessica Yellen (14:18)

So I think of it as you said, as witnessing mindset, which means recognizing that what's happening in the world is real and it's not your experience in this moment. In most cases. Right. Like if you're in a wildfire. Yes. But in most cases, what we're going to talk about today is something that is happening out there, but what's in here for you is still safe and stable and calm. And constantly reconnecting with that knowledge is what helps me keep myself calm and helps me get through the difficult things. But the other piece of it is asking yourself, what story or what conclusions am I drawing about what I'm hearing that might not necessarily be the truth. So the first piece of that is anybody who's, you know, done yoga or done meditation or done mindfulness work knows the experience of being connected with self, with the calm self within. There's so many different terms used for that experience, but when you're feeling like you're not in your fight or flight body and you're in your vagus nerve is activated and you're chill and you're good. If you can kind of take a minute and moment and breathe into that. Right. And I start there. So one way I do that is, you know, inhale, hold, and then you exhale much longer than you've inhaled. Should we do it for a second?

Amanda Doyle (15:55)

Yes, we should.

Jessica Yellen (15:56)

Okay, I'm going to inhale for 4, hold for 5, and then exhale for 8. Hold 2, 1. Exhale as long as you can. It's the longer exhale that activates the vagus nerve. That's what I've learned.

Abby Wambach (16:32)

Through your mouth or through your nose? Does it matter? The exhale?

Jessica Yellen (16:35)

I think you're supposed to inhale through your nose and exhale through your mouth. But for this, I don't know that it's essential. It's length of time. I've also learned people have different ways so the audience can tell us. So when you get into that calm place, that's your landing pad, like, that's where you're living. And so when you feel that you're outside of that and activated, that's when you know you've been triggered. And it's time to, like, put the thing down and remind yourself, I'm here, my body's safe, I'm good.

Amanda Doyle (17:03)

Y.

Jessica Yellen (17:04)

And then come back into it. Because what we do with the news, importantly because we care, is we go on the ride and then all of a sudden you're inside, you know, the Treasury Department with Elon Musk, and you're going down the rabbit hole and you can't stop him. And like, no, come on, we're not in the movie.

Amanda Doyle (17:21)

Back out.

Jessica Yellen (17:22)

Where's my calm self?

Amanda Doyle (17:23)

Can I stop you right there? Because I want to just give an example of that. Because that feels so important to me. And what I want the pod squad to hear is not what you're telling yourself is all these problems might be happening to other people, but it's not happening to you, so you're fine. That is not what we're saying. What we're saying is, and I'll give you example, when I, as a queer woman in a same sex marriage who is raising queer children, hear news about rights being taken away, about the future of this country that might be threatened for my children and me and my family, I have to remind myself when I read and when I listen what Jessica is saying right now, in my home, in my body, I am okay. Right now, I'm looking at my child, they are okay. Not because I'm bypassing, but because the next moment is going to come and then the next moment is going to come. And what the world and those children are going to need is a clear, calm, prepared mother who is thinking clearly and thinking creatively. There is no moment where my clear headedness and calm does not make me a more effective leader. If I am panicked constantly, I will not be the leader and the mother that they need. When the moment comes for me to activate. So that just in terms of it is not bypassing, it is good leadership.

Abby Wambach (19:06)

It feels to me what you're describing is exactly what my therapist talks to me about, about my own personal work. Like that, the idea that something could be deeply, deeply wrong in your life, like you are committed to change it. But the only way you can really change those patterns is to have this kind of detached observation of yourself while that thing is happening. So you can say, oh, look, that's me doing that thing I really want to change. Like by taking the step back and actually not being on the ride with yourself while you're doing the thing is the only path to change it. And it feels like that's the same thing. Like looking and being like, oh, I can see with clarity Elon Musk is raiding the Treasury Department. What does that mean? And what can I do about that? I have a clarity. Whereas if I'm spinning in the hustle and I'm down the rabbit hole, I'm just as whacked out as Elon is. And I can't do anything about Elon.

Amanda Doyle (20:09)

That's right.

Abby Wambach (20:09)

In that moment.

Amanda Doyle (20:10)

That's right.

Jessica Yellen (20:11)

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Amanda Doyle (20:12)

If you're the pilot of a plane, which we all are, metaphorically, we are all leading our own lives. Some of us are leading other people who are passengers on the plane. We are all leading. It is the wrong idea to think that the pilot who is screaming and panicked and fired up and losing their mind is the strong pilot. Okay, that is not the pilot you want. Even when there are problems on the plane, even when it feels like the plane's going down, then more than ever you need a clear minded, calm, strong pilot. So that's what we're doing here, right, Jessica?

Jessica Yellen (20:57)

Yes. It's just the moment you get it. The reason I think this is such a revolutionary way to approach our reality is I spend so much time in social media and one half of my feed is all this, like, tools and tricks to, you know, be calm on the mat and how to work on your mindset. And it's all the therapy stuff, right. And then the other half of my feed is the world is ending, explosions, panic, blah blah blah. And often the very same mindfulness meditation. People that I look to for guidance on how to practice on the mat or how to be still in myself are then posting these wild, panicked, hysterical things about the world and politics and I'm like, how are you not applying the wisdom you've gained in this comfortable, safe meditation world into the world of action and change and stress out there? Isn't the whole point of having those tools that you can use them in the world and not just in your own personal life? Like Amanda, what you said is 100% yes, we use them in our own personal relationships. They also apply to how we interact with a world of information, ideas and political change.

Abby Wambach (22:20)

And I think people do that so well intentioned. Like we think. An indicia of my commitment and belief that this is wrong is the extent to which I am enraged by this happening. And like, as the truism goes, you should be outraged about outrageous things. Everyone should be outraged about outrageous things. It is the posture towards that outrage that is channeling it in the most effective way. Like, we have to be wiser and more grounded than we have a right to be in this moment. If we are actually committed to surviving and resisting it.

Jessica Yellen (23:09)

Yes, 100%.

Amanda Doyle (23:10)

And if we want to have our wild and precious lives.

Abby Wambach (23:22)

If you're anything like me, you probably take thousands of photos every year. And while I have more photos than ever, they are all stuck on my phone. I never see them in real life. Getting them out of my phone and into my house felt like it would take more effort than I had to offer. This is why I want to tell you how easy it is to create photo books. With Shutterfly. You can make a photo book about anything that matters to you. Your family vacation, a wedding, a graduation, any special life event that deserves to have a physical memory in your home. One that you can revisit anytime and relive. The best part is that it is E A S Y E Z. You can use Shutterfly's autofill tool to get a quick, quick start and then go in and add your personal captions and details to make it just right. Shutterfly also offers a free 24 hour designer service. A professional designer that will lay out your entire photo book for you in just one day. Make something that means something with Shutterfly. Enjoy. 40% off orders over $29 with promo code hard things. See site for promotional details.

Sponsor (24:27)

Okay, I'm excited to tell you today about MIDI Health. If you have heard our menopause episodes. You know how passionate I feel about women having access to information about their bodies and about something that so fundamentally affects their lives. Here's the deal. If you're over 40 and you're starting to experience some of the symptoms of perimenopause or menopause, if you're having hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, moodiness, all of this can be related to perimenopause or menopause, log on to Midi Health. I have done this.

Abby Wambach (25:02)

It is easy.

Sponsor (25:03)

In fact, I have recently been pursuing with MIDI Health hormone therapy to replace some of the hormones that are diminishing in my body. They're clinicians. They meet with you and they suggest specialized care for your health concerns. It's all through telehealth and 247 messaging and they call in your prescriptions to your local pharmacy.

Abby Wambach (25:23)

You deserve to feel great.

Sponsor (25:25)

Book your virtual visit today at Join midi that's join midi.com this is a message from sponsor Intuit TurboTax Taxes was waiting and wondering and worrying if you were going to get any money back. Now Taxes is matching with the TurboTax expert who can do your taxes today. Who gives your taxes their undivided attention as they work on your return while you get real time updates on their progress and who will find you every deduction possible and file every form, every investment, Every everything with 100% accuracy. All so you can get the most money back guaranteed. Now this is Taxes. Get an Expert now on TurboTax.com only.

Abby Wambach (26:17)

Available with TurboTax Live full service real.

Sponsor (26:20)

Time updates only in iOS mobile app. See guarantee details@turbotax.com guarantees.

Amanda Doyle (26:36)

It is about being effective for the next steps for the world. But it is also because we have a birthright to joy, to calm, to peace, to creative lives where we are waking up and figuring out what do we want to do with our time, energy, money, day, love. That we are not constantly in reaction, that we have agency and access to the lives that we want a hundred percent.

Jessica Yellen (27:05)

One of the key tools in that is asking yourself when you feel like you're on the ride to use language is what have I decided is true about this? That might not be true if you've written the script and you're already moving because you've decided an outcome, you're ahead of the story.

Amanda Doyle (27:23)

Ahead of the story. That's good. Also on the ride Pod Squad. Listen, even that language is helpful when you say that. Jessica I know what that means in my body. I know when I'm on the ride. It happens so fast. It's like a hijacking of me. I feel it, an intensity building on the inside. What does it feel like for you to be on the ride? Even identifying it is helpful, right?

Jessica Yellen (27:50)

Mm. And I can feel my nervous system calm down when you're saying that. When we say I'm not on the ride, like, I can see it. And one of the things that's valuable about having this conversation and hearing this conversation is you might not get it the first time. Like, your body might not respond, but those ideas are in your head. So the next time you hear this or the next time you suddenly feel so anxious with the news, there's a part of your brain that'll go, wait, I know something about this. And you might have just a moment of being able to distance yourself. Like, oh, I remember they talked about how I'm on the ride. Your intellectual mind might not understand what that means, but in that moment, you're triggered. It gives you almost like an air gap. A moment to step out.

Amanda Doyle (28:33)

Yes.

Jessica Yellen (28:34)

And the more you can lean into that air gap to notice that you're too caught up and triggered in that way, and that there is a way to relax out of it. That's your key. And the more you practice that, the more your muscle memory grows and you're able to do it in the moment.

Abby Wambach (28:52)

There's also, like, a kind of righteous, beautiful indignation you can have about it, because it's like what we're so fired up about and so outraged about is that they're trying to take control of all of us. But the irony is that when we submit to the ride, they're literally controlling us. The nature of a ride is someone else is operating it.

Amanda Doyle (29:19)

That's right.

Abby Wambach (29:20)

And someone else is deciding where you're going, how fast you're going, when you're going to drop, when you're going to go up. The saying, like, I am in charge of how I feel, the. And where I go, and the energy leakage that happens for me and the specific and strategic use of my energy is an incredible act of resistance to that control.

Jessica Yellen (29:50)

And may I add a corollary to that, which I hadn't thought about until this conversation, which is one of the reasons Elon Musk and all those people will talk about are able to do as much as they do in the world, and they're doing right now, is because, by all accounts, they're not very emotional about their work. They don't go on a ride. They stay at that witnessing space, and they can make calculated decisions about what to do. And that gives them a measure of power over people who get emotionally reactive. And so I'm not advocating to not care. That's the whole point of doing the news is to care so that you can know and take action, but to step out of the reactivity so that you have that powerful driver's seat sort of wise mind as you're doing it, which they have.

Amanda Doyle (30:44)

Yeah, it's to care enough. It's not that you don't care. It's to care enough to do the work in order to be effective. Even though it feels different, it feels different than constant outrage. Because it's interesting when you say that. I think, okay, the example I gave earlier about learning about queer rights being taken away and my ultimate fear being that that reaches my home. If I'm really honest, that's what I'm thinking in that moment when I'm losing my mind in my home. It has already reached my. My home. Yes, it is very interesting to be terrified that bodily autonomy will be taken from us. Let's practice now. Let's be in charge of our own bodies and our own nervous systems. If we don't want our bodies to be controlled by Donald Trump and Elon Musk. How about we start today? Right?

Abby Wambach (31:40)

Amen.

Amanda Doyle (31:41)

Okay, let's practice. And I think that as long as we're experimenting with this, we'll start with a mini discussion like this to reground us in why we're doing what we're doing. But now let's do some what. Jessica, when we talked about this episode, we thought let's start with three things that you think the pod squad needs to know and why.

Abby Wambach (32:03)

I'm going to have us do one breath. Okay, before we actually do that, can we do one more grounding? Breath. Jessica tells us four. Four in, five hold, eight out. Okay, let's do it before we go into the news.

Jessica Yellen (32:16)

Good.

Abby Wambach (32:21)

Hold.

Jessica Yellen (32:25)

Exhale.

Abby Wambach (32:32)

Glennon's showing off. She did it for like five seconds longer than I did.

Jessica Yellen (32:36)

Great. Exhale, ladies.

Amanda Doyle (32:39)

Thank you, Jessica. Thank you. Now let's get started by talking about what these are up to now. She said so calmly.

Jessica Yellen (32:50)

Calm news. Okay, Story number one is about Doge, which is Elon Musk's so called department of Government Efficiency. Please know it is not an actual department. So the headline of this is Elon Musk and his boys are inside the pipes of government. And insiders and lawyers are warning that they're behaving with cruelty to federal workers and compromising the privacy of millions of Americans and the credibility of America's financial system. That sounds scary. What it means and what's going on is Musk said that he wants to find waste, fraud and abuse inside the different agencies in government. The way he decided to do that is by plugging a bunch of computers into the different agencies and he's going one by one and then examining the guts of the agencies. We don't have information on exactly what they're doing, what they're using, what they're really looking at. But we do know that he's working with a team of people he brought in that were either 20 somethings. There's even a 19 year old who he's worked with before who are engineers. Others were sourced and hired by Peter Thiel, who is a venture capitalist, worked with him at PayPal and is involved in a lot of surveillance technology, drone technology. And they've sort of plugged these young men into workstations, going into the guts of these agencies around government. They have been taking down websites, demanding access to highly sensitive systems, grilling staff and also recommending things to be frozen, presumably people to be fired, we don't know, sending emails to all of the federal workforce. And it's very unclear what criteria they're using for any of this, what level of vetting they've had. The questions go on.

Amanda Doyle (34:57)

Okay, I have a beginner's mind question about that.

Jessica Yellen (35:00)

Yes.

Amanda Doyle (35:01)

How is Elon Musk getting access to all of this? How has that power been given to him? And is this is what we're seeing, the move from democracy to oligarchy? Meaning is this where a government just starts to be run by some business leaders who are very, very rich and get access because of that? What are we looking at here?

Jessica Yellen (35:25)

Great questions. And I'm going to start with your second question first, which is if you wanted to move into oligarchy, this is one way to lay the groundwork to do that. It could be a predecessor step to that kind of thing. We are not there yet. There are people who argue we are because they see what's coming. But I would argue they've written the script and going back to the script writing idea, I'm staying on the facts that are true today. And we can talk about where it could go and how it could go that way. Right now, today, what we know is that these people are gaining a level of centralized access to systems that no one's ever had before. And it gives them a measure of power and eyes and ears onto the system and control. That's a Potential consolidation of power could lead a lot of scary things, but we don't know that it's gone there or what they're doing. I'll pause on that. Ask if you have a question and then before answering your first one, I.

Abby Wambach (36:28)

Just want to ask also because I know the, the big one was the, the treasury payment system where it's literally every payment that goes out anywhere in the world, including like America's Social Security payments and every international one that they had access to all the like sensitive data of every American. Is anyone talking about the fact that Elon Musk runs data companies and is he extracting that data for his own personal use and is there any check on that? I mean all of his competitors payments are in there. Like, is it about the government or is it about his personal for profit? There seems a lot of conflicts there.

Jessica Yellen (37:11)

There's a lot of conflict and we don't know. Okay, we don't know. So that's part of the. We can write multiple scripts about where it goes from here. Peter Thiel, the man I referred to before, who has worked in a venture capitalist, who was Elon Musk's partner, helped hire some of these guys. He's the mentor, supporter of J.D. vance. He gave J.D. vance his entree to politics into venture capital and more. He is very big in the data surveillance world. And you know, Elon Musk has access to all manner of tools and Peter Thiel's built systems around data surveillance. And there's endless number of worrying scenarios that could emerge from giving them access to so much. But again, they've been so cloak and dagger. One of the things that happened when Trump came into office is he mandated that none of the agencies communicate anymore with the public. So every agency used to have a communications office where as press you could call and ask what's this and what's that? And they were pretty withholding. They didn't tell you much, but you could at least talk to them and they'd post things on their website and updates. That's gone.

Abby Wambach (38:22)

Did you just say that every federal agency is not allowed to talk to the public brief?

Jessica Yellen (38:27)

Yeah, they're not sharing knowledge in that way that they used to.

Amanda Doyle (38:30)

Wow.

Jessica Yellen (38:30)

I don't know how temporary that is. And if that's just for this like blitzkrieg, first hundred days, massive attack approach they're using to making change. But that's where we are right now. And so we don't know a lot about what they're doing. I don't believe that if they were talking to us, they'd tell us anyway, but we just can't know. So let me answer Glennon's question first and then we'll go to Treasury. You'd asked, I think, a version of under what authority, by what permission is he doing this? Trump made musk what's called a special government employee. That's a real thing. And they say that his team of people has been vetted. We don't know that they have proper classic security clearance, but the White House says they've been, quote, vetted and they've been made some form of employees and tasked with rooting out waste, fraud and abuse. And there are Republicans and supporters of Trump who say y'all who were worried about this are out of your minds. We have one of their view, one of the world's most talented engineers and CEOs who's volunteering his time and the best minds to go in and make our government more efficient. And we should be thanking them. So that's the alt view and how they would present it. What we don't know is what tools they're using once inside the system to look around, what they're doing with that and how they're making decisions. So I hear from federal employees that they're feeling like they're being surveilled. People are telling one another that they think that their computer work, computers are listening to them. So they're saying to turn it off at night if it's at home. People are telling stories. Those are stories I've heard. Other people are reporting that some of these Doge kids are grilling federal employees like on video conferences in rather rude manner, like justify your work. If you had to fire one person in your workspace, who would it be? And that even sometimes they're doing it on a two way video conference where the Doge kid who's questioning the federal worker has their video turned off. It's very eerie.

Amanda Doyle (40:39)

Big Brother. Yeah.

Jessica Yellen (40:41)

Yeah. So that's the human level. The larger scale is, you know, people who work in cyber tell me they're concerned because the musk Silicon Valley way to do things is move fast and break things and ask questions later. And in government, if you break things, that's someone's Social Security check. That's the payment that goes to the cancer research. That's on and on and on. And if they take the approach that we're just going to split people and just fire anybody who's ratted out by a friend or by a colleague or any other sort of arbitrary category where they're not being careful, you might rip out one of the key cords that you need to make the system work right.

Amanda Doyle (41:35)

So you all know I've been using Bokeh for, for a while now, and I'm into it. Okay. This is like the new toothpaste with lots of different flavors and it's kind of making my mornings and evenings a little bit more delightful. Bokeh is on a mission to inspire more mindful oral care. Their toothpaste is free from fluoride, parabens, SLS and artificial additives. It's powered by nature. It's a clean, safe way to keep your mouth and body happy. And they have delightful and delicious flavors like element. And they also offer cool ones like cocoa, ginger and lemon lavender. And they've got kid friendly flavors like orange cream, watermelon mint and new strawberry mango. For a limited time, Bokeh is offering listeners 15% off its best selling toothpastes on Amazon and bokeh.com with code Glennon15. That's Glennon15. Make the switch to Bokeh for the whole family.

Sponsor (42:33)

So many things in our lives change, but not our love for Vuori clothing. I love this ad. We're so glad that they continue to support the show.

Amanda Doyle (42:40)

It's true. Abby is obsessed with Vuori. I am a little bit too. Do you think you have a favorite item?

Sponsor (42:46)

They're T shirts. They never get less soft. They're just perfect for everything. For going to dinner, for actively going for a walk, for a working out, whatever you want to do. The best sleep in them.

Amanda Doyle (42:56)

You, you wear them to work out and you wear them out to dinner. That is true.

Sponsor (42:59)

I wear vori tops all day, every day.

Amanda Doyle (43:01)

You wear them under suits and you wear them to bed.

Sponsor (43:04)

It's everything. I mean, I love them, but it's not easy to find clothes that look sleek and feel comfortable. I mean, I can use them everywhere and anywhere I go. Vuori is an investment in your happiness, I promise you. For our listeners, they are offering 20% off your first purchase plus free shipping on any US orders over $75 and free returns. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet@vuori.com hardthings that's V U-O-R-I-.com hardthings. You won't be sorry.

Abby Wambach (43:39)

Can I just speak to. As a person who lives in D.C. it's a very personally difficult time for a lot of people. I couldn't tell you the number of people that I know that could have been making Much more money somewhere else, but deeply believe what they're doing. And they have countless friends who have been dismissed. They are getting emails that say if you hear of anyone within the agency that is against Trump's policies, you have to report them to this email address. It's a very scary time around D.C. in terms of people not knowing what's happening and feeling very much like the idea is if you don't pledge allegiance, you will be rooted out.

Jessica Yellen (44:26)

And that's super un American. And one of the fears is once these folks are in the system and have a measure of power, can this be unraveled? I will say, before we go into the rest, to give people some perspective, I think every case, like one case after another, these things have now been challenged that they've taken to courts. The courts have said no. They have paused a lot of what Doge is doing that's most concerning. Some of what they've done. It's going back to court, but paused. The Trump administration tried to halt federal funds for a lot of places. The court said, you can't do that at every step. The courts have said, no, no, no. We don't know if they will try to defy the courts. We're going to learn. But I also think it helps to understand that one of the theories about the Trump administration in this term is that Trump insiders believe they have very few days to actually force their will into the system. Because at some point soon, Congress is going to start to. Their factions will start to fall apart. They don't have a big majority. Their own teams are very like. They have a coalition that has a lot of factions that aren't well aligned that could start fighting soon. And so they feel like this is like, part of the reason it's massive attack is. Yes. To confuse us. Yes. To distract the press also because they're like, let's see how much we can get done while we can before things start to fall apart. So there's a future version of this where it starts to fall apart of its own weight in a way.

Amanda Doyle (46:04)

Okay, can I say back to you what I think I've heard you say in a way that is a new person to all of this way, just so I can see if I'm understanding it in general. So is this a bit correct? We know that during the Trump campaign this time, Elon and Donald became tight and Elon was contributing huge amounts of money to the Trump campaign with the plan and hope that as soon as Trump was elected, Elon would then become Trump's Special guy. What's the name?

Jessica Yellen (46:42)

He's called a special government employee.

Amanda Doyle (46:44)

Okay.

Jessica Yellen (46:45)

He's sort of acting like the CEO of the country.

Amanda Doyle (46:47)

Okay, great. What could go wrong? Okay, so. Ooh, Just went on the ride, coming back.

Jessica Yellen (46:54)

Sorry.

Amanda Doyle (46:54)

No, no, no. That was me. I'm catching myself.

Jessica Yellen (46:57)

Okay, good.

Amanda Doyle (46:58)

So now that plan worked. So now Elon is Donald's special guy, and so he gets to create a department almost. He gets to create his own team. And that team of Elon's is sort of infiltrating all the different branches of government with what they are saying is their express goal of kind of cutting the fat, making it more efficient. And he has what is unprecedented levels of access without any typical or measurable vetting or clear understanding of what the goal is.

Jessica Yellen (47:46)

Or oversight.

Amanda Doyle (47:47)

Or oversight. Okay, so in terms of witnessing, that is helpful. I understand in general what is going on with Elon. Thank you, Jessica.

Jessica Yellen (48:02)

You're still allowed to go omfg.

Amanda Doyle (48:05)

Yes.

Jessica Yellen (48:06)

Witnessing mindset allows you to have feelings about the thing.

Amanda Doyle (48:08)

Okay. I'll just say in general, it feels like it could be problematic.

Jessica Yellen (48:15)

I mean, we are on the wildest timeline.

Amanda Doyle (48:19)

Okay, let me ask you. I would like to do one more, because I think usually we will give people three things, but since we did such a beautiful introduction, let's choose one more and then call it a day. It's enough practice for the day.

Jessica Yellen (48:35)

Okay. One of the big concerns right now is will Doge behave in ways that are constitutional or not? And in a larger sense, is the Trump administration going to trigger a constitutional crisis? I'll tell you that J.D. vance and Elon Musk have actually challenge the legitimacy of courts to do their constitutional checks and balances. And that's triggering concerns that we might be at the start of a constitutional crisis. And I can explain that a bit more. Amanda had mentioned earlier that Doge, which is not a department, it's just calling itself one.

Amanda Doyle (49:16)

Okay.

Abby Wambach (49:17)

Because an actual department would have to have confirmations, and people would have to say, say, yes, we agree. That person should have access to highly sensitive information.

Jessica Yellen (49:27)

Yes. And you raise such an important point, which is all of this should be stood up by Congress.

Abby Wambach (49:34)

Yes.

Jessica Yellen (49:35)

So if they want some sort of new department that does this, that would have to be voted on by Congress. It's the executive's job to execute how that department does its work. But Congress has to have a say, and Congress has not had its say. Now, Congress is not stepping in to check anything Musk is doing. So that's worth noting, but that could change in Time. So this Doge entity, one of the first things they did is go into some of the key departments and including treasury, and they went into this payment system. Amanda mentioned to start looking around. We don't know what they did. This raised, as you might imagine, some significant alarms all over the place. And they were taken to court. A bunch of states attorneys generals said this is a violation of Americans privacy, because right, our pay stubs or tax stubs are in there and we don't actually know what they're looking at. Like, is it all Americans IRS payments? Is it just federal employees payment? We don't know. But they have the risk of violating privacy laws. They're putting payments to states at risk and it's risking the credibility of our financial system. In fact, five former treasury secretaries wrote an op ed this week saying that this is almost constitutional crisis. It's threatening America's financial stability. And a judge said it's true. The first get out, they said the kids who were in there have to get out of the system. Unplug your laptop, you know, and erase everything that you downloaded. That upset the administration. And J.D. vance, I still say tweeted, he posted on X. It's so hard to get used to that. A message that said essentially the last sentence of his message is judges aren't allowed to control the executive's legitimate power. He's saying, back off courts. You can't tell us what to do. And then the administration filed a lawsuit challenging the judge, saying, your ruling that we need to get out of treasury, that Doge needs to get out of treasury, is unconstitutionally telling us how we can do our job. It is our job to run Treasury. True. It is the Treasury Secretary's job to decide how the payment system functions. True. And the Treasury Secretary said it was okay for Doge to go in, so. So you are overstepping. They're going back to court on Friday and we'll see what the judge decides. This is a potential constitutional crisis, because if the judge says no, you have to stay out and they violate it and go back in, they are saying, we don't listen to the courts. They haven't done that yet, to our knowledge. We don't know that they've gone in overriding a judge's will. So we're not in the crisis now. We are looking at the possibility of that. I'll pause there.

Abby Wambach (52:38)

Constitutional crisis means basically like our Constitution, our form of government was set up for the purpose of, if you go back to our origins, preventing a tyrannical leader from taking over the government, because that's what we fought against to establish America. Right. So the idea of checks and balances, you have Congress, you have the court system, and you have the president. So when you say constitutional crisis, are you meaning that, like, will these checks and balances hold? That's what we mean by constitutional. Is the Constitution going to work the way it was intended to work, where one can't take more power than it is supposed to have?

Jessica Yellen (53:22)

Yes, exactly. And what the Constitution says is these three branches do different things. Congress writes the laws, sets the policy, the executive, the president's branch, puts it into action, takes those and interprets what they mean and puts them into action. And then when there's a dispute about that, the judiciary, the judges weigh in and decide. This is what it really means. And you have to do this and you have to do that. Now, it is precedent, history in America that the judges have the final word. There is a court case called Marbury vs Madison. And in that case, the Supreme Court said, when there is a dispute and the Congress and White House disagree, we, the Supreme Court, have the final say. And ever since then, we have followed that pattern. Interestingly, not the Constitution that says that, it's Marbury versus Madison. And we follow that tradition to this day. What could happen is they could say, for example, no, we're not getting out of the Treasury Department. And then that would be challenging that history making precedent in Marbury vs Madison, that the courts have the final say if it went to the Supreme Court. And if Congress doesn't want to act because they've been passive to date and the courts ruled and the Executive decides. I'm not listening to the courts. Then the question is, who has the controlling authority and how do you enact that? Will, if it's the courts that should be driving what the executive does, how do you force that on the executive? That would be the crisis.

Abby Wambach (54:59)

That's wild, because then there could be a crisis where the branches are fighting each other, but then there could be a crisis by abstaining from a fight. In other words, like if Congress doesn't stand up and do its job or the courts don't and they just passively let this happen, then that's like a different kind of crisis. Like it's not working the way it was supposed to, but it's because the others aren't stepping up to enforce the balance.

Jessica Yellen (55:27)

And there's terms for that like constitutional coup and people are throwing that term around. And I don't feel comfortable with that word at this point. I Don't think that's where we are. Others do. I don't. But, you know, we are in this weird position where because Congress isn't saying, hey, no, stop. The executive isn't overriding their will. They're not expressing their will.

Abby Wambach (55:50)

Right, Exactly.

Jessica Yellen (55:51)

Or maybe they're fine with this. Maybe they're in a wait and see mode.

Abby Wambach (55:55)

Yeah, I know we have to wait till Friday for this kind of standoff to happen, but there were like five more injunctions by court saying, like, you can't do these things you're doing. Trump administration, have they complied with any of those? Is there any clues as to if they're going to?

Jessica Yellen (56:13)

In my analysis, they have found clever, legalistic ways to try to end run the courts in some cases without explicitly defying the court.

Abby Wambach (56:25)

Okay.

Jessica Yellen (56:26)

So I think they've adjusted. I'm going to give you a quick example. The White House, I can't even remember how long ago now, said there's going to be a freeze on all federal grants and funds. That went to court. That was in a memo. It went to court. The judge said, you can't do that. So they rescinded the memo. Then they said, now that the memo is rescinded, we're going to freeze federal grants and loans. Because the judge's ruling was about the memo. And without the memo, we're just going to do it in a different way. But you see that they were recognizing the court's authority, I think, by saying no memo. And so it went back to court and the court just said, memo or no, you can't do this, and you're in defiance if you do. And so now we're waiting to see if the payments go out.

Abby Wambach (57:12)

Got it.

Jessica Yellen (57:12)

But I think by doing that, they recognize the court's authority.

Abby Wambach (57:15)

Okay.

Jessica Yellen (57:16)

In a sneaky, trying to test boundaries way.

Amanda Doyle (57:20)

So two things. First of all, can you, Amanda, do what I did with the first one with that? Can you say back to Jessica what you heard her saying, what you would report to someone who wasn't listening to this in a clear, concise way, what she just said?

Abby Wambach (57:33)

Yes. What I heard Jessica saying is that there is a lot of dramatic, even unprecedented actions being taken in the early days of the Trump administration that many of which have been challenged in the court system. So that is something that would suggest that the checks and balances are working to some extent to avoid a constitutional crisis where one branch is taking too much. So that is happening right now where there's an overreach by one branch and another branch saying, y'all can't do that. And that we are in a situation where it is still to be determined whether the acceptance of the authority of the other branch to say, you can't do that will be respected by the executive branch, which is the presidency.

Amanda Doyle (58:35)

Does that sound right, Jessica?

Jessica Yellen (58:37)

A. Yes.

Amanda Doyle (58:38)

Okay, great. Can I tell you just before we end what my nervous system story is about this? I just think there should be, like a nervous system story because there is a point at which you're talking where I start hearing, womp, womp, because no, no, no. And this is. I want to train. I'm going to train myself throughout this process. Because my nervous system story is there's a home invasion. We had a system, and now there's been a home invasion and there's no one to call because the people who are supposed to come fix it have the power or organization to hold the line and hold these home invaders accountable. And I'm scared about that because I just saw the ineffectiveness of the people who are supposed to hold the home invaders to account because of all that went down in the last election and the inability to hold a line and hold leadership and hold precedent. That is my nervous system story that now no one is in charge except for people that I don't trust. So is that a story that is untrue? What is your reaction to that?

Jessica Yellen (60:01)

I would say true, untrue. It's a fair feeling, right? It's a fair experience out of what we've discussed. But what I see is our systems haven't been working, and I think that's pretty clear now. And something's changing. Things have to change. And this is an invitation for moving into reform. And it's true that the people who are at the driver's seat right now have one vision of reform, and we don't know what it is, but maybe we are being called to awaken in a different way. And we weren't awakening and nothing before was awakening, and we needed a much louder knock at the door.

Amanda Doyle (60:48)

We also needed a vision for reform. We also needed that, and we didn't have it. And I'll tell you what, they're clear with their vision.

Jessica Yellen (60:58)

They're clear with their vision and they have a new language for what they do. And that's honestly part of the reason I'm so excited to talk to the two of you is you're so good with language, and we need new language around what is healthy and good and right to have a better world. Right. And to act in the political space and act in our own lives in ways that are not just, you know, good and kind, but powerful and effective.

Amanda Doyle (61:23)

And strong and new and new beautiful. Let's take one more deep breath and end with that. All right, ready everybody? All right, Pod Squad, thank you for that. We'll see you back here next week when we'll try this again, calm news the third way. Thanks, Pod Squad. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never, never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you, Baron, much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.