Cameron Esposito: How to Save Your Damn Self (Best Of)

Summary

Summary of "Cameron Esposito: How to Save Your Damn Self (Best Of)" Episode We Can Do Hard Things Podcast | Released March 2, 2025

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Introduction

In this heartfelt and candid episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosts Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach engage in an in-depth conversation with comedian, actor, and author Cameron Esposito. The discussion delves into Cameron's personal journey navigating gender identity, the challenges of being a queer individual in the entertainment industry, the power of friendship, and the path to forgiveness and healing. Through laughter, tears, and profound insights, the trio explores what it truly means to confront and embrace life's hardest moments.

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Guest Background: Cameron Esposito

Cameron Esposito is introduced as a multifaceted artist—a queer, gender non-conforming stand-up comic, actor, writer, and host. Known for her headlining tours, roles in television and film, and her popular podcast Query, Cameron brings a wealth of experience and vulnerability to the conversation.

[04:44] Abby Wambach: "Cameron Esposito is a queer gender non-conforming standup comic, actor, writer..."

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Childhood and Gender Identity

Cameron opens up about her early experiences with gender non-conformity. From a young age, she grappled with understanding her identity, often feeling neither fully aligned with being a girl nor entirely detached from it. Her childhood included moments of navigating traditional gender roles, such as auditioning for male roles in school plays, which led to significant internal and external conflicts.

[06:27] Cameron Esposito: "I think there is something going on because I can place people who are like me, so there's something going on."

Cameron recounts how societal pressures and early bullying influenced her perception of self, setting the stage for her future endeavors in comedy as a coping mechanism.

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Comedy as a Coping Mechanism

For Cameron, comedy became a sanctuary—a space where she could express her true self amidst adversity. Performing stand-up allowed her to channel her pain and experiences into humor, providing both relief and a sense of control. However, she reflects on the limitations of this approach, especially during personal struggles such as her divorce, which led her to question the sustainability of relying solely on humor for emotional survival.

[24:17] Cameron Esposito: "I got super funny. And actually I have in the last couple of years like really wondered about the long term viability of that skill set..."

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Body Image and Self-Perception

The conversation shifts to Cameron's complex relationship with her body. She discusses the dichotomy between her outward appearance and internal identity, highlighting struggles with body dysmorphia and the societal expectations placed upon her as a woman. Cameron shares her strategies for reconciling these aspects, such as tailored suits, makeup, and physical activities that help her feel more grounded and authentic.

[12:55] Cameron Esposito: "I have a very complicated relationship with my body... I'm feeling like a confusing presence."

Cameron emphasizes the importance of physical expression and how engaging in hobbies like running, swimming, and dance classes serves as a bridge between her internal self and external presentation.

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Friendship and Connection

A significant portion of the episode centers on the value of genuine friendships. Cameron and Abby discuss their mutual realization of the need to move beyond performing for the public and fostering authentic, supportive relationships. They explore the challenges of vulnerability and the transformative power of connecting deeply with others.

[26:50] Abby Wambach: "It's important. It was like you and I figured out that, like, oh, we just take our trauma and pain and then we spin it up and then we serve it to lots of people."

Cameron shares her personal rule of not sharing anything online or on stage without first discussing it with someone she trusts, highlighting her commitment to authentic interpersonal connections.

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Forgiveness and Healing

The trio delves into the theme of forgiveness, particularly Cameron's journey towards forgiving the Catholic Church for past traumas. She recounts her experiences in Jesuit College, the shifting beliefs that led her away from the church, and her eventual return to engage in theology classes as an adult seeking closure and understanding.

[54:22] Abby Wambach: "It's like the antidote to the bite has to have some of the poison from the bite in it to heal it."

Cameron explores the nuanced nature of forgiveness—not as absolving wrongdoing but as a means to liberate oneself from the burdens of resentment and anger.

[55:23] Cameron Esposito: "I think forgiveness is... directional to me, and so I will no longer live that way towards you. Like, I'm gonna move onward."

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Current Projects and Hobbies

Cameron discusses her current endeavors beyond comedy, including her roles in television and her ongoing personal development. She highlights the importance of physical activities in maintaining her mental and emotional well-being, mentioning running, swimming, dance classes, and even theological studies during the pandemic.

[35:01] Cameron Esposito: "I love my hobbies. I run. I have a running partner... I take dance classes, which is really cool and new for me."

These hobbies not only provide structure but also serve as avenues for self-expression and connection with others.

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Conclusion: Embracing Vulnerability and Authenticity

The episode culminates in a touching exchange of gratitude and love among the hosts and Cameron. They emphasize the importance of vulnerability, authenticity, and the courage to confront and discuss life's hardest challenges openly. The conversation underscores the podcast's mission—to foster a community where individuals can share their struggles and support one another in living more freely and courageously.

[65:06] Glennon Doyle: "You don't get to be a part of this community if you're this or that... So I love that, that maybe one day I could find forgiveness in my heart."

[65:43] Abby Wambach: "We love you. We love you too."

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Notable Quotes

• Cameron Esposito [06:27]: "I think there is something going on because I can place people who are like me, so there's something going on."

• Cameron Esposito [12:55]: "I have a very complicated relationship with my body... I'm feeling like a confusing presence."

• Cameron Esposito [26:50]: "I have a rule I made for myself. I don't bring something to the Internet or to stage that I haven't told someone else."

• Cameron Esposito [55:23]: "I think forgiveness is... directional to me, and so I will no longer live that way towards you. Like, I'm gonna move onward."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of We Can Do Hard Things offers a profound exploration of identity, resilience, and the human capacity for growth and healing. Cameron Esposito's openness about her struggles and triumphs serves as an inspiring testament to the podcast's ethos: that by embracing our vulnerabilities and forging genuine connections, we can navigate life's most challenging moments with grace and courage.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Okay, go ahead, say it how you want to say it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Welcome, everybody. Welcome back, everybody. We can do Hard Things podcast.

[Abby Wambach]

Good job, babe. That was really good. I should let you do it more. Go.

[Glennon Doyle]

You don't. You don't.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. Sister's not here today, but the person who is here is very, very exciting to Abby and me. Because the person who's here today is an IRL friend.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. In real life, for those who don't know that, yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Acronym in real life. Friend. So we've been talking a lot about Abby and I's new commitment to figuring out what friendship is and to trying to have it. And the person who's here today is one of those people who is one of our guinea pigs, our friendship guinea pig.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, the one we're trying friendship out with.

[Abby Wambach]

We are trying friendship out with this person. So this person means a whole lot to us. But what I want to tell you is my first experience with our guest today, who is Cameron Esposito. I'll stop being so dramatically cryptic.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so cute when you do that.

[Abby Wambach]

I know, because I get so excited, you know, I'm like really nervous right now. My hands are sweating as usual. And I just want to tell this story because. And it's a little bit gross, but just it's important to me that I tell it.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I can't wait.

[Abby Wambach]

We were on the Together tour a long time ago. Someone said this comedian, Cameron Esposito is coming and you all are gonna freak out because she's totally amazing. And we were like, okay, that's great. Cameron comes on this stage. And for these events, we were all sitting on the stage together. Okay. So we were all lined up in couches behind Cameron, who was on the front of the stage. Cameron started to do her set, which is a fancy word comedians use, which I've learned since I've been friends with Cameron. Okay. Cameron started doing Cameron set. And you'll remember this night, I actually peed in my pants on stage.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's what we're talking about.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

So I could not real pee on a couch in front of 3,000 people.

[Glennon Doyle]

I wonder how that must feel for camera.

[Abby Wambach]

It was terrifying. And then I had to figure out, like, what am I going to do? Am I just going to carry on? Which I did.

[Cameron Esposito]

And.

[Abby Wambach]

And I know it sounds weird, but doesn't sound weird to people who have had babies. It just. It just happens.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I know.

[Abby Wambach]

Judging when Cameron's around, I think that Cameron's the funniest person I've ever met in my life.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep. She's. She's freaking hilarious.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. She's kind of like one of those prophet comedians who says all the true things. She's like a priest comedian, which we'll find out. How about we talk to her since she's sitting here and we could just be saying these things to her.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

Cameron Esposito is a queer gender non conforming standup comic, actor, writer and host as a standup Cameron has headlined tours and festivals nationwide and internationally. As an actor and host, Cameron has been seen across television and film, appearing in big budget films and beloved Sundance indies, and on a million streamers. Cameron hosts a popular podcast, query, with some of the brightest luminaries in the LGBTQ + community. Her first book, save Yourself, which I freaking love Y was an instant bestseller and is available in paperback now. And very excitingly, Cameron is now on the ABC series A Million Little Things. So, so exciting. Listen, she's got tattoo.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think we should talk to her now.

[Abby Wambach]

Let's start with this. So, Cameron, as you say right now, right now, today, your true bio is that you are a big gay adult.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. Okay.

[Cameron Esposito]

Well, sort of small.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, Small, big gay adult.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Right, right.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, but you.

[Cameron Esposito]

I think I'm Abby's height, but that's not true. And we found this out in a green room once because I had my arm around Abby and I turned, there was a mirror and I said, literally, I think I said, and we're the same size. I don't know why. That was the summary of our hangout. We'd been hanging out before the show. I turned, I said, and we're the same size. I think I am 9 inches shorter than Abby anyway.

[Abby Wambach]

You are, Kim, you are, you are. I just, I mean, I hate to break this to you, but you're actually my size.

[Cameron Esposito]

But I've got big dog energy. Yes. Not that you don't.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, that's right.

[Cameron Esposito]

Anyway, keep going.

[Abby Wambach]

You do.

[Cameron Esposito]

Keep going.

[Abby Wambach]

You have big dog energy, which is why you feel like you look like a big dog, but what you really look like, Cameron, is a big gay adult is what we're trying to right now.

[Cameron Esposito]

Big gay adult.

[Abby Wambach]

But you started your life not as a big gay adult, but as a little gay kid. Correct?

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Cameron Esposito]

I'm so glad we're starting by talking about this because for me, you know, a lot of stuff that I've been thinking about recently is also as a little gay kid, but also like a gender non conforming kid. Even when I wrote. Because some of this is from Save yourself that qualification as a little gay kid. But I think a lot of what I was talking about was gender. When I wrote this book, which was just a few years ago, that was not something that was on my mind. The same way I feel like when I came out 20 years ago, I was like, okay, well, first the word that I used was gay. And then eventually I was like lesbian. And then eventually I was like queer. And I still use all of those words. But I think the other thing that was going on when I was a little kid is that there's something going on with me that I notice and that other people have always noticed. That is not quite a woman and also a woman. I feel like gender fluid is a word that's making sense to me right now. But a lot of what I was writing about when I was writing about being a little gay kid is that I was like Robin Hood for every Halloween, and I collected Kens, and I was only ever Joseph when my sisters and I were doing the nativity play. And when I was in fourth grade, I auditioned for the male lead of the school play. And my school called home to ask my parents what they wanted to do about this big problem. And my parents said, was she good? They were like, yeah. I mean, obviously, I'm obviously talented, right? So they let me do it, but the school wouldn't let there be just me. So I had to split the performances with a guy. There was, like, a guy that they. So they were like, we'll do this, but not totally for real.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's so weird.

[Cameron Esposito]

But all of those were childhood experiences. And I think a lot of what I've been thinking about over the last even just couple of weeks or months, as things have been coming out in Florida and Texas about children and preventing teachers from talking to children about the actual world, I've never been different than this. And I don't even know what this is, but I've never been different than this.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think it's so. And if anybody wants to see some hilarious educational IG videos, go to Cameron Esposito's IG page, because. Thank you. Because these last weeks have been really weird in our community. And it's almost like part of my consciousness has to forget that Florida exists and that Texas exists in order to, like, live.

[Cameron Esposito]

I don't need to tell you two this because you've recently lived in Florida and I have not. But those are our people.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Cameron Esposito]

I mean, I travel so much for work, and I have traveled for. I've been doing this job for 20 years in some capacity. And I often think that there's this weird. Especially, like, in the last couple of election cycles, there's this, like, coastal elites versus, like, people that live everywhere else. And I will just tell you, queer people are everywhere. I don't need to tell you. But for any of the listeners that might not know this, because maybe your job doesn't put you in every situation. Queer people are everywhere. And, like, can't leave.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

Also sometimes don't want to leave. Like, that's where that person lives.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

And so I think when I think about these folks, it's like, yo, we are. We are there. Like, that's us, you know?

[Abby Wambach]

So it's interesting because you're talking about your childhood and knowing that there was something you were that was unique and maybe not as common in everyone else. You call it left of masculine you. You are often being mistaken for a boy. But it was also largely about your body. Just your body. Right. Like, people commenting about your body. Because I think it's interesting that you're talking about, like, I'm doing a lot of this right now stuff I wrote in Untamed that doesn't exactly feel right anymore. And lots of it's about gender and sexuality. Wait, what am I talking about? Because when I read your book, it's all in there. I'm like, wait, is she talking about sexuality right now? Wait, is she talking about gender? Wait, is she just talking about body dysmorphia that anybody can have? Because.

[Cameron Esposito]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

People who live in women's bodies are just open for debate. Everybody can just comment on your body.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

That's what happened to. To you, right?

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah. And I mean, you know, because we've talked about this as human friends, I have a very complicated relationship with Mabad. I mean, I think there's a couple different things going on, and some of this I'm actually experiencing in, like, such a hot way because I'm on a network TV drama right now, so I've done everything in comedy. But when you're doing something in comedy, you can kind of be like, ha, I'm joking. You know, even if you're like, the love interest, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, we're kissing, but, like, you know, take it or leave it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. It's not all. You can have, like, an armor, but you have to be earnest in acting.

[Cameron Esposito]

Exactly. And so on a drama, A Million Little Things is a drama. My character's supposed to be, like, hot enough that Grace Park's character, somebody I've been watching on TV since Battlestar Galactica and, like, think is amazing. My character has to be hot enough that Grace Park's character would want to slam them up against a wall for one of those classic TV makeouts that we all know so much about. Oh, my God, like, and my shirt has to come off and all this stuff. And I had to believe that that is true, which has been like, a really wild Thing because I think even. I don't even think we're used to seeing somebody that looks like me on tv, period.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Cameron Esposito]

But then especially that's not undercut by joking around.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, yes.

[Cameron Esposito]

And then the thing I've got going on with my body, which is that like I have a, you know, kind of a angular and sharp face and giant sticking up hair and then I also have like D cup breasts and some Italian ness going on.

[Glennon Doyle]

What does that mean?

[Cameron Esposito]

I think it's like I'm actually supposed to live in like my. Cause I'm Italian. I think I'm actually supposed to live in like Rome and be like airing laundry out the window. Like, like, hey, and all my children are supposed to be around. And like body wise, I'm supposed to be soft, but I want to be hard.

[Glennon Doyle]

Got it.

[Cameron Esposito]

I like do a billion push ups to be like, please.

[Glennon Doyle]

God damn it. I totally get this.

[Cameron Esposito]

Make my arms the way I want my arms to be.

[Glennon Doyle]

You know, I 100% get this.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah. And so this body stuff has been happening my whole life. I think maybe a reduction eventually could be something that happens. But I'm not really looking to have top surgery. I'm not really looking to be on hormones or anything like that right now, which some people are an awesome rad for them. It's not really something I'm looking to pursue. So it's just kind of like I feel like a confusing presence. But there's also no change or finish line that's going to un confuse people.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Cameron Esposito]

Nothing's coming down the pike that's going to make people unconfused. I said this in like Instagram recently, but it's like I'm still, I feel like a centaur, you know, it's like there's like half of this, half of that, and it's just like, here you go, accept this.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh my gosh.

[Abby Wambach]

Do you feel. And this is. I'm going to drive people nuts with this question, but I just can't stop asking it. I'm so badly trying to understand what is gender? Is it even a thing? Like I can't find it in me. Okay. I can't find it in me anywhere. I don't feel like a woman. I don't feel like a man. Like, I don't know what it means. It just seems like something that was like a role that was assigned to me and I was like, I can do this. I'm an A plus student. Like I can, I can be the femmes. Femme that ever femmed. But I have never. Not once. And I just told Abby this. I have never looked at a picture of myself ever, and been like that. That looks like me.

[Cameron Esposito]

Oh, wow.

[Abby Wambach]

Never.

[Cameron Esposito]

Oh, Glennon. Oh, that makes my little. I wanna. That's so. Oh, I have, actually.

[Abby Wambach]

Tell me. Tell me what that feels like. And like, what. What is gender to you? And is it in you or is it just on you? Are you performing it? Is it intrinsic? What is it?

[Cameron Esposito]

Such a great series of questions. Definitely on, right?

[Abby Wambach]

Def.

[Cameron Esposito]

Like, definitely on. Because I have been cultured as a woman, so I have a woman's experience, but then also definitely in. And that's what I think I will say there's something like. I mean, I hope this isn't othering, but, like, you and I, Glennon is who I'm talking to right now. We relate to each other in one way. And then Abby and I, we relate to each other in a different way. Like, totally across a room. Abby and I are gonna clock each other and, like, do. There's two options. You could do, like, a head tilt, or you could do, like, a bro hug, where we're gonna, like, kind of tap each other on.

[Abby Wambach]

The bro hug is so interesting.

[Cameron Esposito]

But I'm never gonna touch Abby's ribs, you know? But if I hug you, I'm gonna, like, hug, hug you in a totally different way.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

Oh, my gosh. Maybe Abby and I are, like, the same parts of a magnet.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

And you and I are on a spectrum. Maybe not so similar also doesn't mean we're so different. I don't think of it as, like, mask and femme. I don't think of it. It's not like there's, like, two. Right. You know? But I do think that there is something going on because I. I. Because I can place people who are like me, so there's something going on. I don't. Maybe it's limiting, but for me, it's like, I want there to be some stuff that feels like me. Otherwise, I feel too floaty in space. Like when you were asking about pictures, when I see Harry Styles or David Bowie, that looks like me to me. Okay, maybe the rest of the world doesn't think that looks like me.

[Abby Wambach]

I do. I think that. I think you're right.

[Cameron Esposito]

I think that looks like me. So what is that? That's still something. Right? Like, that's who I want to dress like. And in terms of pictures that I've seen that look like me, I actually like to wear makeup. I don't really know how to put it on. But I like to wear makeup, but makeup that, like, I literally have a makeup artist that I've worked with for a decade because makeup is a part of my job. And she and I really know each other well. And I've asked her to refer to lipstick as men's lip tint because it just makes me feel more comfortable.

[Abby Wambach]

Sure. Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

I like to have my cheekbones highlighted and. Well, well, not highlighted. Bronzed.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Cameron Esposito]

And I like to have my nose bronzed. And it's that stuff. It makes you more angular. And I like to have my eyebrows filled in, which, again, is like a way of sort of rebalancing the face.

[Abby Wambach]

Sure.

[Cameron Esposito]

It's odd to think that that makeup might make me feel more myself because I do identify as masculine center, but it does because it's like this sort of glam Bowie version of myself. And then I like to have my hair all big and sort of foppish. And I like to wear suits, but I like those suits to be sort of tailored. Yes, I am.

[Abby Wambach]

So I love. I think it's so cool that, you know, all of those things you have figured out how to match your insides with your outsides, you know, Because I think when people ask me, like, why is your hair always so different? Like, when Sarah Paulson talks about playing me, she says one of the things she's excited about is changing. Like, how can anyone change their hair so much? I think I'm just always trying to figure out, what do I look like.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

You know, I think that's really common, really human. I think part of the reason I figured this out is because I've been in like, the pressure cooker of having. It's just like part of my job to display. When I first started performing, I. I was just like in college and I was just doing improv, kind of like to survive because I was closeted and I was at a school where you couldn't come out. You could be kicked out of school for being gay.

[Abby Wambach]

Catholic school, right? You were in Catholic school?

[Cameron Esposito]

Yes. Yeah. And that. I never saw that happen to anybody, but it was literally. You were not protected by the non discrimination policy. There were 4,000 people in my class. My first girlfriend and I, we eventually went to like the commencement ball, the end of senior year, sort of college prom together. Really worried that we would not be able to graduate. And there were two other gay dude couples that made the same choice to do that. So there were six of us in my class of 4,000. And I also didn't know anybody else in other years at that time that were out, so there were like 12,000 undergrads and there were six of us. So anyway, comedy was a place that I could be seen for something that felt true even if all of me couldn't be true. And I didn't really know that it would eventually lead to like a job.

[Abby Wambach]

Being slammed up against the wall.

[Cameron Esposito]

I didn't even know it was like a profession.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

In Save Yourself, you said somewhere around the same time that my internal shame alarm started going off. I started leading a double life. I joked instead of crying. I shoved my pain way down and put a joke on top. Getting funnier and funnier by the minute. And then you say 11 was the age my self hatred became. How do I say that word? Sentient. Right. I wrote down on my notes. Glennon became bulimic. Abby became a soccer star. Cameron became funny. It's like, yeah, it's that idea that from 8 to 12 cultural scientists tell us, like, that's the age where you start to really internalize your formal indoctrination and you start to like split and you become something to survive. Do you feel like that's what happened to you? You became funny to survive?

[Cameron Esposito]

100%, yes. I didn't realize this until just a few years ago, but I think I was pretty badly bullied as a child. I thought that's how everybody was treated. I had glasses and braces and a bowl cut. And I was. Something weird was going on with my gender. And I was gay and I was, and I had crossed eyes, this child. There was a lot going on. And so I think I just made the joke first to sort of be like, I know what you're gonna say. Well, here's an even funnier spin. Right? And also to sort of have value to people when I wasn't like, I wasn't able to play the game of being sort of a girl that might be valuable for some other stuff that women are valued for.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Cameron Esposito]

It's all garbage, by the way. Like it is not like I think this should exist.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's true.

[Cameron Esposito]

But it was another way of making myself valuable as a friend or as a student, those types of things. So yeah, I got, I got super funny. And actually I have in the last couple of years like really wondered about the long term viability of that skill set because I took it to its end. I was funny. Funny Funny. And then I was funny for a living. And then I was having success in that area. And then I was married and that marriage was ending. And it was the first time in my life that I was not well. For a while it was private, so I wasn't able to talk about it on stage. And then it was really sad. Like, I was sadder than I was funny about it. That's actually a good thing because it changed how I make friends and how I use. I over developed that skill. So I never really told anybody the truth about what was going on. I just told them, like, here's the saddest thing you've ever heard. But we're all chuckling about it. It broke. My sense of humor broke for a while, which actually is one of the best things that ever happened to me.

[Abby Wambach]

That's how we started trying to be friends with each other. I wanted to talk about this. I think it's so important. It was like you and I figured out that, like, oh, we just take our trauma and pain and then we spin it up and then we serve it to lots of people. But we don't do the middle step, which other human beings do, which is talk about it with other human beings and have actual friends.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

You just perform it. And so we were trying to be like, you've recently reached out to me and said, I'm having feelings and I would like to talk to you about it instead of the Internet.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, that was the text. Can you talk to us about that?

[Cameron Esposito]

This is a rule I have now. It's a rule I made for myself. And who knows if rules are good, but I actually think this one is pretty good, which is that I don't bring something to the Internet or to stage that I haven't told someone else. Interpersonally, that's good. And I think part of that is, you know, when you do standup since public speaking, and I'm sure you get this all the time too, Glennon. And actually I even feel like I know how hard this is for you a little bit just from knowing you. People will talk about public speaking as being the most like, oh, my God, I can't believe you do stand up. Like, that's so hard. And I'm like, I don't know. Different people have different skills. Some people are a brain surgeon, you know, that's the first thing I'll say.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

The next thing I'll say is, like, that's not hard for me. Like, it's not that the skill of standup isn't hard. You know, any skill is something you can work on over time, but standing up in front of, you know, 2200. The largest audience I've ever performed for is 40, 000 people. That. That is, like, safe. Exactly. You know what's much worse? Talk to one person that you have to ever see again.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my God. No. Nope.

[Cameron Esposito]

That's. That is impossible. Talk to thousands of people that are gonna leave. Great, easy. Like, yeah, no problem. There's no intimacy there. There's some spiritual intimacy, but it's not something that you're gonna have to grow. You know, I'm not gonna have to show up and have these people know me.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right. That's right. Ugh is correct. I just wanna say this thing because I think it's. Abby and I were laughing so hard on the street last night. We were walking home from dinner. So that text. Cameron told me some of the feelings she was having. I wrote back and said, I don't wanna be the annoying meditation person, but I feel like maybe this is how I feel when I'm not meditating at all. What? So have you tried meditating? And then there was a pause in the text, and then Cameron said, well, the thing is, I'm in Canada, and they don't have that here.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Did you. Did you try the meditating and did it help?

[Cameron Esposito]

Yes, Yes, I did. I really appreciated the reminder. And yes, it did help. Again, you know, performing is stuff. People will ask what the experience is like, and I will say, you are on one is on drugs. The way that it affects my adrenaline and my. The chemicals inside my body is that I am. I am in an altered state. So, like, performing kind of makes you just want to. If you're a certain type of person, perform more?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, if you're a certain type of person, like everyone on this podcast.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

It just kind of makes you want to perform more. When I was texting about this, it's like I had been on this, you know, been working that day, and it's like the up is so intense, and I think I was trying to stay up. Like, what else can I do? You know, I have a day off. I'm like writing think pieces. I'm like pitching TV show. It's literally like, no, it's sit down.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Cameron Esposito]

Or. Or walk and listen to something and, you know. Yeah, come down a little bit. But I think once I'm in that state, the last thing I want to do is come down.

[Abby Wambach]

How is it going for you, the creating more friendships the reaching out to human beings. How do you feel more tethered to the earth when you do that? Does it help? What are the challenges?

[Cameron Esposito]

It really does help. I just said this. I'm repeating myself. But it's very hard for me. It's very hard to be known. It's very hard to be open to suggestion. If you're a certain type of person, I don't want people to know. I don't have it figured out. That feels embarrassing for some reason. We don't know why that is. That's not a healthy reaction to not having it figured out. And also, like, I want to move, you know, I want to move like fast and loose and have sparky flame out relationships and do a completely wild job and fling my body around the country in a plane. That's like what feels normal to me. Chaos feels calming and.

[Glennon Doyle]

Ooh, that really hit me.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah. Did it?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, that's. That's something.

[Cameron Esposito]

Chaos is so in my, in my, my experience, chill.

[Glennon Doyle]

Just like a whoop, let's go.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah. I just feel like I can relax. I'm like, oh, thank God. Finally the world feels like I feel. Finally. There's not like something I'm not doing or something I could do better. Everything's so impossible that it's like, ugh, I can really chill out.

[Abby Wambach]

Wow, Cool.

[Cameron Esposito]

So anyway, that is what I'm trying to instead have connection and friendship and have the ability to stay. The ability to like, not run toward or away, but just to, like, hang. I'm finding that a lot in my romantic relationship. I'm finding that a lot in having friends that I go back to again and again. I have hobbies. I'm finding that a lot and having hobbies.

[Glennon Doyle]

Give us a few of them because there's a, there's an S at the end of that. What are the hobbies?

[Cameron Esposito]

I love. I love my hobbies. I run. I have a running partner.

[Abby Wambach]

Wow.

[Cameron Esposito]

Like, that is so bonkers to me. But I. I have a running partner. I have a running partner. I run with. I have. I go swimming at the YMCA that is in my tiny mountain town that I live in outside of Los Angeles. I take dance classes, which is really cool and new for me, like ballet and barre classes, which is so gender challenging.

[Glennon Doyle]

I was just going to say, what outfit do you wear?

[Cameron Esposito]

Great question. I wear like a T shirt and sort of like, I guess yoga pants. But you know, when I was a little kid and I took a zillion ballet classes, like the boys would wear, they wear like black tight Pants and a T shirt. So that's sort of. That's what I wear, basically.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah, that's what I wear.

[Abby Wambach]

These are all body things. This is interesting. You choose things that get you back into your body. How is it going with, like, having to take your shirt off on a million little things and being this, like, confident in your body type person? Like, how is that all going for someone who struggled with body dysmorphia and eating and your boobs and all the things? Like, how is the experience of it right now? I can see you're moving around a lot. You're stretching.

[Cameron Esposito]

You're right. These are all body hobbies. We could also talk about theology. That's something else we could talk about in a minute. That's my other hobby. But, yeah, I am trying to utilize my body as, like, a better vehicle for my spirit these days. For a long. When I was using my body, it would be, like, alone. Like, I'm. Like. I hike in the woods.

[Glennon Doyle]

No one's there.

[Cameron Esposito]

You know, like, that's.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, interesting. Other people have to be around, huh?

[Cameron Esposito]

Well, I'm experimenting with other people being around. I did play team sports for a lot of years, but then after that, I don't know if. But then when Abby was continuing that trajectory, then that was no longer a part of my life. I think I felt like I just didn't want anybody to look at me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Cameron Esposito]

And nobody's looking at you. But I really felt like even if they terminate or scan past me but don't register me, I don't even want that. I really like using my body, and I really like moving around. I've got a ton of energy. I have been challenging myself to be with other people.

[Abby Wambach]

I don't know anything about bodies or food or whatever. Everyone knows that. I'm not an expert on these things. I'm still working on it every minute. But it feels like it must be a move towards health to be doing them with other people because, like, for eating. I don't like to eat with other people. I don't like to any exercise with other people. Abby always trying to get me to go to these classes. It sounds like the most vulnerable, horrific thing ever. I walk by myself.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

I do yoga by myself.

[Cameron Esposito]

I.

[Abby Wambach]

If. If I'm at a dinner, I'll, like, not eat and then eat when I get home. It's. There's something about the isolation of it that feels disordered.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

So maybe it's moving in the right direction to be, like, vulnerably sharing those bodily experiences with other human beings.

[Cameron Esposito]

That sounds right to me. I also will say to, like, be working on my strength a little bit more with these things as opposed to limiting food intake. Because I have had a massive history of disordered eating. And that can still rear its head where I think like, that the solution is eating less, eating different types of foods that are super restrictive. It's just a different way of, for me, of like being in touch with my bod. Because again, it's also not like three hours on a treadmill alone. It's sort of like what the class says we're doing.

[Abby Wambach]

That's so good. I don't need to say what we're doing. That's for sure.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

I should never be in charge of what we're doing when it comes to that stuff.

[Glennon Doyle]

I just think it's really interesting talking about the body and gender and how, Cam, both you and I are a little bit non conforming, gender wise. But I think it's really interesting because when I think of myself, I think of myself as an attention seeker. And by hearing you, you've just said that you're kind of like an attention avoider. And this gender thing is something that actually brings me maybe the most attention in my life.

[Cameron Esposito]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I don't know what the question is. I just wanted to make that point that, like, if you were to have like a lineup of like, people, if you're Terminator scanning, it's like people stop at the confusing one, which is me, and.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yes. Yeah, exactly. And.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I love that for some reason.

[Cameron Esposito]

You love it.

[Glennon Doyle]

You love it.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Except in a women's bathroom. I hate it. I'm like, oh, God.

[Cameron Esposito]

I mean, that's so interesting that you like. So this is a thing that I, when it was brought to my attention, it almost broke my brain. One thing that's true is I cry constantly. I cry all the time. I have a lot of emotions. I only found this out a couple years ago because prior to that I was allowing zero of them to exit my body. It's in your book. And then when I.

[Abby Wambach]

It's in your book that you didn't cry. And so now you cry.

[Cameron Esposito]

I cry all the time. Oh, that's wonderful.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

Thank you, my friend. All of my support on this. Yeah. Never cry. I basically, like, never cried one time until I was 35.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow.

[Cameron Esposito]

And then anyway, I cry constantly. My spouse, Katie is very gentle, calming energy.

[Abby Wambach]

Correct.

[Cameron Esposito]

And, well, one thing that will happen sometimes is that if she might hug me, if I don't even know I'm going to cry yet. This is true. Sometimes I'm laughing and I'm going to do a laugh to cry, but I don't know that's going to happen. But Katie knows that's gonna happen. Oh my God. And she'll do a little hug on me and it's terrible because it's like, oh, no, now this is gonna definitely happen. And I can't believe you noticed. And then something I would say to her when she would do this was, don't notice me. She like hugs me. I would go, don't notice me. But I would say it frequently, but I didn't even realize I was saying it. And then she's very noticing person. And so she mentioned this to me one time that I would say, don't notice me. And I was like, yeah, I mean that's it. That's it right there is like I feel over noticed in my life. I feel like for my whole life I've been over noticed about like being a little kid, people telling me I'm fat when I was like, also not fat, being a little kid. And like my clothes are the wrong thing or getting serred. But that feels dangerous because it feels scary. And I don't know when's this person gonna find out they've made a mistake and have they made a mistake and you know, all of this. And so I just feel over noticed. And I think that's again, when you think about someone like stand up, it's like, okay, fine, you want to see like, but you have to pay.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

And I get to be in charge and I can kick you out.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Cameron Esposito]

Like it's like it's a.

[Abby Wambach]

And it's not a conversation because you don't get to talk back.

[Cameron Esposito]

No, no, yeah, exactly.

[Abby Wambach]

It's a monologue.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yes. Your part in this is laughing, which is like actually a submissive posture in the primate kingdom. So I will, you want, if you want to notice me, come right in here. I will control and dominate you for an hour. And it will be like wizardry and also kind of spiritual. And then you can go home.

[Abby Wambach]

I find it interesting that I can speak to thousands of people and feel fine about it. I feel like I did you your service, I gave you good things. But if I'm sitting in a room with people, I feel like a burden to them. I'm like, I feel like I'm so sorry that you have to listen to me talk. I'm always ending conversations quickly because I Assume the other person just wants to leave. Like, I feel like, what. I don't. I'm on a stage because we've already decided what the transaction is, and you can't say you got into this accidentally.

[Cameron Esposito]

But if I'm 100%.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, okay.

[Cameron Esposito]

No, I love this. I'm just thinking about how I've never. Never one time. Well, I've been experimenting with this recently, but until about a month ago, never have has a therapist ended a session with me. It's always like, I'm, like, looking at the clock, and then I'm like, all right, well, I think it's time to wrap up. Like. Like.

[Abby Wambach]

What is that? Remember our first phone conversation ever?

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, my God.

[Abby Wambach]

We were on for five seconds. I was like, okay, so it's a good day. Baba, are you having a good day? She said, yeah, okay, well, this has been great.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I was like, wait, you're not going to do the thing where you're just, like, too nervous to keep talking? Like, we're going to have a proper conversation here? Like, you're not just going to get off and be like, oh, okay, that first call's over with. Like, no, I want to actually talk to you.

[Abby Wambach]

But isn't that weird to say, like, to believe that people want to talk to you? Like, you're not a burden. Like, in order to have a friend or be a friend, you kind of have to decide that you're not a burden.

[Glennon Doyle]

Huh?

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah. And the best way that I have found that out is that I now call people when I have something that I'd like to speak with them about or text them. That has created a situation where other people do that in my direction.

[Glennon Doyle]

Ooh, do you like it?

[Cameron Esposito]

And so I know it's not terrible, and instead I realize that it is someone trusting me, and it feels very. It's like an honor. You know, when you call me or.

[Abby Wambach]

Text me, I feel is an honor.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yes. And you. You have also called and texted me, and so I don't. For me, when it's going out, vomit, I want to die. But because I've experimented with that and other people have done it back, I know how it actually feels to receive it, which is like, oh, it's, like, amazing.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

Oh, this person wants me in their life, Brad.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And then you feel a little bit tethered to the earth.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. It's friends. That's what friends.

[Abby Wambach]

It's friendship. It's this friendship idea, which is confusing to me as gender. Okay, what if I told you the most Important part of spring cleaning is the sock drawer. Yep, you heard that right. It's time to ditch the worn out pairs and refresh your collection with Bombas. First up, if you're looking to kickstart a new walking or running hobby, Bombas Blister fighting, sweat, wicking athletic socks are your secret weapon. They'll take you from that first mile all the way to your first marathon. And if you have a wedding to attend this spring, Bomba's dress socks are perfect for loafers, heels, and any fancy shoes you're rocking. I love wearing my Bombas merino wool socks. They are so, so comfortable. It feels like I'm walking on clouds. And their underwear feels like nothing. While giving you all the support you need, Bombas is going international. Enjoy worldwide shipping to over 200 countries. Head over to bombas.com hardthings and use code hardthings for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B-A-S.com hardthings code hardthings for 20% off YOUR first purchase. Bombas.com hardthings and use Code hardthings. You can save every day by shopping at Whole Foods Market. Seriously, don't just go for their big sales. Walk the store and see the savings for yourself. In the meat department, look for yellow low price signs on Whole Foods market. No antibiotics ever. Chicken breast and ground beef. Quality, flavorful meats priced just right. Perfect for big dinners with plenty left over for tomorrow's lunches. There are so many ways to save at Whole Foods Market. Now, you know, I want to talk about you. When you were little, you wanted to become a priest, but of course you couldn't become a priest because of the vagina. Right?

[Cameron Esposito]

You almost said you couldn't become a creep. There was, there was a little bit of Freddy and slip in there. You almost wanted to be a priest. Of course you could be a creep.

[Glennon Doyle]

Anyway.

[Abby Wambach]

And so you became a comic where you could hide in plain sight. Right. They always say the best place to hide is in plain sight. So you decided to get on a stage so you could hide there.

[Cameron Esposito]

That's right. Exactly.

[Abby Wambach]

So no one would notice the real you. Okay.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

I just think it's so interesting and cool and I think you're kind. You're a priest. You are a priest.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

The way you use stages and the way you use your Instagram. I mean, everyone has to follow Cameron on Instagram. I, Cameron is probably my favorite fellow.

[Glennon Doyle]

Seriously. I mean, I, I, I've watched your videos over and over.

[Abby Wambach]

It's Subversive. And it's everything comedy should be. It doesn't feel like I'm being educated, but I am. And then during COVID Cameron signed up for a bunch of college divinity classes. Is this the case? Can you talk about the situation with you and faith and learning and teaching and the fact that you just didn't get the hell out and get as far away as you could?

[Cameron Esposito]

I love this conversation so much. First, I want to say when you were saying hiding in plain sight, that is so. Thank you for giving me that language that's so beautiful. And it's like, yes. I have recently been realizing it's like I created like a little avatar, like a little fighter, like in the video game of Life. I created like a little fighter who wears motorcycle jacket and holds a microphone to kind of go out in front of me. Like, there's the real me and then there's like this little. There's this. It's a dissociative like, huh, protection of my little self. And it's actually very sweet thinking about like taking care of myself like that, especially at a young age. But then still now, like where there's somebody being like, I got you actually, like, you hang out back there. I got this one. And then that high haired standup comic goes out ahead into the world and takes care of my more tender self. Very sweet, vigorous. I am hoping that other people know that. I'm hoping you two know that. That we do a little soft guy. And I think you do for a long time. I was hoping you wouldn't. Anyway, don't notice me, but, yeah, don't notice me. But anyway, yeah. I was raised Catholic and I loved it. My sisters were raised Catholic, couldn't give two shits. I loved it. I thought that Jesus Christ had some cool stuff to say. And I thought that philosophically going in the temple, flipping tables, I thought that was awesome. And I was really into a sort of leftist, socialist, revolutionary Jesus who also is accepted by certain communities, like the Jesuit community, for instance. So I went to Jesuit College and that's what I thought I was getting into when I became a theology major was like, we're gonna like fuck some shit up.

[Abby Wambach]

That's what I thought, Cam.

[Cameron Esposito]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

I thought I was joining the people who were ready to fuck some shit up. I didn't know I was joining the people who wanted to keep building the shit.

[Cameron Esposito]

Exactly. You go, oh, you're the shit factory.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, no.

[Cameron Esposito]

This was all colonialism. I didn't realize. I thought this was something else.

[Abby Wambach]

It's like you go to join PETA and you end up at the cattle ranchers convention.

[Cameron Esposito]

Exactly, exactly, exactly. Yeah. I started reading what the church had to say about women first. Even before I realized I was queer, I started reading what the church said about women, not the Bible, like the teaching, the stamped teaching that comes from the Pope and his friends. And I was like, oh, this is nothing that I agree with. And then also the spotlight papers were happening at that same time I lived in Boston. That's when the Catholic Church sex abuse scandal was really being talked about for the first time. And I was just like, none of this. And I left. Like, I like, left hard. I was truly like, I believe in all this. And then the next day I was like, actually, just as a correction to myself, none of it. I believe in none of it, and I'll leave it here. And then that's how I operated for a long time. However, stand up, as I've been saying, has always been spiritual for me. There's a feeling when I'm performing that I am actually connected to the audience, like physically, like, connected through breath. We're all regulating our heartbeats together in a room like that. One time I was performing at a show and I felt like, this is in the book. But I was like, we're trees. We're all trees connected through a root system. And then afterwards, after the show, I hadn't said this on stage. Reggie Watts, who's the bandleader for the James Corden show, was like, hey, man, I liked that set. But what I love the best is how you were all trees connected through the earth. He said that, and I hadn't spoken about it. So my point is, something spiritual is happening.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

[Cameron Esposito]

But in the pandemic, when everybody was baking bread, what I was doing was reaching out to like eight different master's level theology programs, looking at their course descriptions, writing to specific professors and being like, can I take your classes? Because I'm thinking about a career change. Maybe I'd like to be like a non Catholic priest. Almost all of these professors said yes, because when a stand up comic says, I'd like to take, I think that they were just genuinely curious.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, of course.

[Cameron Esposito]

Like, what are you talking about? Sure. So I took all these classes, and one of the most impactful for me, I took them at a bunch of different institutions on a bunch of different topics. And one of them was at my college, at Boston College, where when they called me, they used to call me and say, like, do you want to give? Do you want to donate to the school? And very early I said, I will donate to Boston College when you apologize for the way that you treated me and the other queer students that went there and continued to go there and they never called me again.

[Abby Wambach]

Shocking.

[Glennon Doyle]

They must have ticked off like non complying over there. She'll never, she's never gonna donate the gay grievances box.

[Cameron Esposito]

Exactly, exactly. But I went back to B.C. because the head of the theology department when I was a student there, who was somebody I really loved and was close to, was teaching a class called Literally Just Forgiveness.

[Glennon Doyle]

Whoa.

[Cameron Esposito]

And so I wrote to him and I was like, hey, I don't know if you remember me, you know, I was your student 20 years ago. Can I take this class? And he was like, oh, I just was listening to you on npr. I followed your career. I like think you're awesome, and please come take the class. And I did take it. And we're still in touch and are now good friends. And I will say that, like, it didn't bring me back into a place of being, like the church rules, but what it did do is help me realize that, like, these are all just people. And as an adult with all of my faculties and like the ability to support myself financially, you know, I was a dependent child when that was happening to me in college. And even I wouldn't have even gone and gotten like therapy on campus or anything like that because it was all not for me. And that is a terrible thing to do to a young person.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, it is.

[Cameron Esposito]

But, like, as an adult going back, I think I just got to see that these are people who are doing the best. And sometimes somebody's best is pretty bad. And it's a bummer for someone to not have the experience and exposure to be able to like, really live the word that they say that they're living. That sucks for them, for them. What a huge bummer for that person.

[Abby Wambach]

That's beautiful.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I mean, I gotta get there somehow. I just don't have it yet in my heart to forgive them for not just my experience, but like, for your experience and for all the millions of us, millions of us, probably billions of us in the history of humanity that has suffered at the hand of this. Just like we're here as a community to support you, to love you, and also you. You don't get to be a part of this community if you're this or that or this or that. It's just so hypocritical to me. So I love that, that maybe one day I could find forgiveness in my heart.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. There's a freedom to it. We just interviewed Ocean Vuong, and he was talking about how if you're carrying the weight of that constantly, then it's like, what do you get to do that's creative in your life? And so many people have. For marginalized groups, have talked about that. This, like, the. The opportunity cost of the resistance of that constantly is that you're always directionally moving against something because you're still just living your life in reaction to the man instead of choosing how you get to live your one beautiful and precious life. So I think that is probably what forgiveness is. It's not like I feel good about you anymore. It's just, I'm sick of holding you. You don't deserve it.

[Cameron Esposito]

I love that.

[Abby Wambach]

Right?

[Cameron Esposito]

Definitely. I think that for me, it was. I was consumed by hatred. So, I mean, congrats to those people, places, and things that I hated because, like, they got so much of my time and energy.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Cameron Esposito]

Like, that's such a win for them. This is. This is an evolving thing for me. I don't think I've hit some finish line here, but it is that thing of, like, what is forgiveness? Is it like, I send you on your way sweetly, or is it just like, oh, you're wrong. Oh, well, you know, like, is It Is, like, forgiveness, maybe? Really? Lightness.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, lightness. It's putting something down. It's directional to me, and so I will no longer live that way towards you. Like, I'm gonna move onward.

[Glennon Doyle]

I bet you. It had to be very healing to also take the class from the place that probably brought so many of these feelings inside of you.

[Abby Wambach]

I find that interesting, too, because we all wish we could find healing separate from the thing. And it's very annoying that sometimes it's like when somebody gets a snake bite, and then the antidote to the bite has to have some of the poison from the bite in it to heal it. That's how I feel about people who get hurt by the church.

[Cameron Esposito]

I think this is right. I can't even remember where I found this. I was really in this deep dive on forgiveness. This is like, what I was spending a lot of my pandemic on is like, what is. I was so angry at so many people, places, and things, and I was like, forgiveness. This is what I need to spend my energy on. I came across this, like, Buddhist teaching that was like, running away from something and running towards something. That's the same thing. So to need to leave and get the hell out of here, which is how I felt a lot of my life. Or to need to find the solution and get ever so close to that, which is the other half of how I felt in my life. It's like a panic. It's just like an utter panic and just a lack of acceptance. Right. It's like that things would need to be different. That's what I've been working on, is less running towards, in a way, and.

[Abby Wambach]

More deciding for yourself where you want to go.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah. And also more just like sitting. Just like sitting still. Because that's not even a decision. It's more like maybe there is no decision. It's kind of what I was talking about with gender. I guess this is what. I guess this is what my body looks like and it has this head. I guess that's true. I guess this is true. It's been true for 40 years. I guess it's true.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's so good.

[Abby Wambach]

So we were talking to our other friends besides you and Katie.

[Glennon Doyle]

Our two other friends.

[Abby Wambach]

Her two other friends. Okay. And they are like, OG Gays. They're like.

[Glennon Doyle]

What does OG stand for?

[Abby Wambach]

Old Gays. Right.

[Cameron Esposito]

No, are these original gangsters?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, that's exactly.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, okay. So they're OG OGs. They're original gangster old gays. And when I mean old, I mean, like, original. I don't mean old in age. Okay. I mean, like, they've been gays for a long time in the public eye. Like you. Okay, so we were talking, and they were talking about this sort of whiplash that they feel, because the way that they would describe it is, like, one day, and for their whole lives, they were, like, being persecuted as lesbians. And then, like, the next day, Old Navy was, like, sewing pride flags and everyone was queer. And they just say, like, where is the support group for, like, this. This whiplash that has happened to so many of us where it just happened overnight. And now we're all supposed to be, like, happily assimilated without any processing. And interestingly enough, they're talking about what if we didn't want the assimilation?

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, what if we. Part of our identity was the fact that we created this community and now everybody wants to be friends with the queers. What do you think about that? And then also I want to know, do fresh queries like me ever annoy you? And I want to know the truth about this, because I do feel like sometimes those of us who have come out in the pride flags at Old Navy era can sort of have a different energy. It's almost Like, Karen. Queer energy. Like. Like, queer ins, I would call it.

[Cameron Esposito]

Oh, no. Did you just. Is that from just now?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Yeah. Queer.

[Cameron Esposito]

Great. You just did it. I can't believe I was here when that happened. Just now.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

Just kidding. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

I mean, I love a smushed word. Smushed words together are my gender.

[Cameron Esposito]

Portmanteau.

[Abby Wambach]

That's my gender. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Cameron Esposito]

Mosi.

[Abby Wambach]

So you know what I'm saying, though? Like, Abby and I talk about that a lot. Like, I will say something, and she'll be like, listen, you just got here. You just got here. Like, don't. Do we ever do. Querens. Do you ever experience queer and energy?

[Cameron Esposito]

I'm gonna tell you this. Okay, here's the thing that I find the most annoying thing on the planet. This is, to me. Well, annoying is the right word. Cause there are things that are, like, less just or more angering. So I'll just say annoying is the right word. To me, the most annoying thing on the planet is the idea that we are somehow at a place that, like, being queer, being gay, being lesbian, it's, like, totally chill.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like.

[Cameron Esposito]

It's chill vibes. I know you have so many different types of listeners, so I mean this with love. This is often coming from the straight world that seems very surprised that this is still a thing. But I'm gonna tell you that it's still stressful to move into a new neighborhood. It's still stressful to be on a plane. It's still stressful to wear a wedding ring. I don't actually think we're done now. Less often am I being arrested for holding hands with my wife on the street. Like, that's a thing that used to happen, and that is happening less often often. So not that there is no change, but I do think that one thing that's very weird is like. Like, I feel like when marriage equality happened, and it's not just that, like, trans folks still are marginalized and murdered. It's not just. It's not like. It's that, like, marriage equality. Okay, so we have, like, basic, vague legal protections that, like, are not applied the same in every state, every city, by every landlord. Like, we didn't really get anywhere. No, we got somewhere. But when we got to that place, that place was still full of tricks.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Cameron Esposito]

So I think that's the thing that, when you ask this question, I feel like the thing that keeps us all. I like being in the fight because I do think it's part of what makes us special. Is like. Is the being in the fight, but, like, the queering of all things. When my straight sister is in a world where people don't talk about her child's father babysitting their daughter, like, then maybe we'll be at a certain place, but I think we're, like, out of place yet.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And it's interesting. It's like homophobia and racism, they have in our country have the don't notice me thing, too. And the way they do the don't notice me thing. Because racism and homophobia are legislated.

[Cameron Esposito]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

They're like, don't notice me because I'm gonna go on stage and create my avatar that looks like Pride Month.

[Cameron Esposito]

Mm. Right?

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Cameron Esposito]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

So it's like the queering of everything is only capitalism deep. It's not in any of our laws. So actually, Pride Month doesn't help us at all. It's like a red herring. It's like, look at us. We're so gay friendly, but we need the laws to be gay friendly, not Old Navy.

[Cameron Esposito]

And then here's one thing I just want to make sure to revisit to your question about Querence.

[Abby Wambach]

Querence. Yeah.

[Cameron Esposito]

Glennon. I. I didn't get to date the people that I wanted to date when I was in my. When I was, like, in adolescence and puberty. I, like, had a lot of boyfriends, which is like, I wasn't somebody who didn't get to date people, but everybody that I was dating, they were the nicest people. I love my friends. I was in love with my best friends. Just a series of best friends. And I wanted to be loved by them. Not necessarily noticed, but loved by them. And it was so heart wrenching, and it has been a formative part of my whole life. Is that, like, this feeling of wanting and not having a place for that to land that is receptive in the way that I would like for it to be. And I don't feel like you just got here, and I'm pissed. I feel like that sounds so hard for anybody who, like, I live 20 years that way. It sounds so hard to live longer than that. And I just, like. I mean, it is really hard to not be yourself.

[Glennon Doyle]

For any minute of time. That's so beautiful.

[Cameron Esposito]

Any minute of time.

[Glennon Doyle]

So beautiful.

[Abby Wambach]

Cameron, you are one of my favorite people to talk to on this entire planet.

[Cameron Esposito]

I basically am tearing up. This is really happening. I really. I love you and respect both of you very much.

[Glennon Doyle]

Same Z's, same.

[Cameron Esposito]

And I just want to say thank you for the work that you've been doing the last couple of years, especially because you are always, both of you, always putting yourselves out there. But it is so intense, the amount of visibility that you've both been visible for a long time. But it does feel like an increased number of magnifying glasses.

[Glennon Doyle]

It does.

[Cameron Esposito]

And that does seem, again, really challenging. And so just I see it and I love you.

[Abby Wambach]

We love you.

[Glennon Doyle]

We love you too.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you, Cameron. And we love you, POD Squad. We'll see you at the next We Can Do Hard Things Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen. Listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.