Can You Change Your Partner? With Dr. Alexandra Solomon

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Can You Change Your Partner? With Dr. Alexandra Solomon"

Podcast Information:

• Title: We Can Do Hard Things
• Host/Authors: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle
• Guest: Dr. Alexandra Solomon, PhD
• Release Date: March 25, 2025

Overview: In the episode titled "Can You Change Your Partner? With Dr. Alexandra Solomon," hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle delve into the complexities of relationships, specifically addressing the perennial question of whether and how one can change their partner. Joined by Dr. Alexandra Solomon, a renowned clinical psychologist and relationship expert, the conversation explores the dynamics of "acceptors" and "changers" within partnerships, the influence of family of origin, and strategies for fostering mutual growth and understanding.

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Introduction of Dr. Alexandra Solomon

Glennon Doyle kicks off the episode by introducing Dr. Alexandra Solomon, highlighting her expertise in relationships and her framework of relational self-awareness. Dr. Solomon brings a wealth of knowledge from her experience as a couples therapist, author, and podcast host, aiming to provide practical tools for enhancing relational authenticity and curiosity.

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Defining Acceptors and Changers in Relationships

Glennon Doyle ([07:10] - [10:05]): Glennon introduces the concept of "acceptors" and "changers" in relationships, questioning the inherent imbalance when one partner seeks to change while the other tends to accept. She posits that this dynamic often leads to one person feeling like the constant initiator of change, while the other remains stagnant.

Amanda Doyle ([07:38] - [11:34]): Amanda expands on this by introducing the idea of dialectics—embracing the coexistence of stability and change within a relationship. She explains that healthy relationships require both partners to hold space for consistency and growth. Amanda emphasizes the importance of recognizing and valuing each partner's unique contributions, whether it’s pushing for growth or providing stability.

Notable Quote:

"A relationship needs both stability and change. Our relationships are healthiest when there are elements of consistency and steadiness and elements of growth and change."
— Amanda Doyle ([10:25])

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The Serenity Prayer Applied to Relationships

Glennon Doyle ([04:13] - [05:19]): Glennon shares her perspective on how many couples unconsciously adopt the "get better soon" mentality, pressuring partners to improve without understanding the deeper implications. She introduces the Serenity Prayer as a framework for relationships:

"Dear God, grant me the courage to change the things I can about Abby, the serenity to accept things I cannot change about Abby, and the wisdom to know the difference."
— Dr. Alexandra Solomon ([05:19])

This prayer serves as a foundation for discerning what aspects of a partner or relationship are within one's control to change and which should be accepted.

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Impact of Family of Origin and Personal Wounds

Amanda Doyle ([16:05] - [17:09]): Amanda discusses how individuals' behaviors in relationships are often influenced by their family of origin. For instance, being raised in a setting that required vigilance and responsibility can lead one to adopt the "changer" role, always seeking to improve or protect the relationship. Conversely, those who grew up in environments where their efforts were minimized may become "acceptors," striving to maintain peace and stability.

Notable Quote:

"A lot of times, the things that I judge in him are the things that actually would really benefit me if I'm doing it."
— Amanda Doyle ([07:42])

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Communication Strategies and Couple Therapy Insights

Amanda Doyle ([29:32] - [33:48]): The conversation transitions to effective communication strategies within relationships. Amanda highlights research indicating that when partners consistently validate each other's concerns, retrieval of negative behaviors diminishes over time. She also touches upon the challenges of entering couple therapy, especially when one partner perceives it as a judgment rather than a collaborative effort to improve the relationship.

Glennon Doyle ([33:18] - [36:53]): Glennon illustrates how daily minor conflicts can reflect deeper relational dynamics. She shares personal anecdotes about her marriage, emphasizing the importance of understanding underlying fears and wounds that drive seemingly trivial frustrations.

Notable Quote:

"What we know also from the research is that intent gets you nowhere. It's all about impact."
— Amanda Doyle ([29:46])

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Personal Reflections and Growth

Abby Wambach ([25:11] - [29:01]): Abby reflects on her own journey within her marriage, acknowledging past behaviors that contributed to relational strain. She discusses the transformative impact of mutual acknowledgment and the shift from defending behaviors to understanding their roots.

Glennon Doyle ([49:17] - [52:18]): Glennon shares insights from her couple's therapy experience with her husband John, illustrating how both partners can embrace their roles as changer and acceptor to foster a more harmonious relationship. She emphasizes the significance of self-awareness and personal growth in shaping relational dynamics.

Notable Quote:

"It all starts with you, and it can end that way, too."
— Glennon Doyle ([58:45])

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Conclusion: Embracing Mutual Growth and Understanding

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts and Dr. Solomon summarize the key takeaways:

• Mutual Recognition: Both partners must recognize and appreciate each other's roles—whether as changers or acceptors.
• Deepening Understanding: Understanding the familial and personal wounds that influence behavior is crucial for empathy and effective communication.
• Collaborative Efforts: Relationships thrive when both partners work together to balance stability and growth, validating each other's feelings and fostering an environment of mutual respect and support.
• Therapeutic Interventions: Couple therapy can serve as a valuable tool for breaking negative cycles and building a stronger, more connected partnership.

Final Notable Quote:

"We can do hard things."
— Dr. Alexandra Solomon ([59:52])

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Key Insights:

1. Balance in Relationships: Successful relationships require a balance between accepting your partner as they are and encouraging mutual growth.
2. Understanding Underlying Motivations: Recognizing the personal and familial backgrounds that shape behavior can lead to greater empathy and reduced conflict.
3. Effective Communication: Validating each other's concerns and fostering open dialogue are essential for diminishing misunderstandings and building trust.
4. Role of Therapy: Professional guidance can help couples navigate complex dynamics, allowing for healthier interactions and stronger bonds.
5. Personal Growth: Individual self-awareness and healing are integral to contributing positively to the relationship.

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This episode of "We Can Do Hard Things" offers profound insights into the intricate dance of relationships, encouraging listeners to approach their partnerships with compassion, understanding, and a willingness to grow together.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. And today. Today we are really going to try to do something hard and happy and figure out with a remarkable guest we have today how to deal with the question that many of us circle around in our relationships, which is how do we know what to accept and what to try to change? How do we know what we should try to change because we want something better? And how do we know when we're tipping that point of really asking our person to be someone different than they are? So what question the actual hell is going on? And to tell us what the hell is going on is Alexandra H. Solomon. PhD Dr. Alexandra Solomon is internationally recognized as one of today's most trusted voices in the world of relationships. And her framework of relational self awareness has reached millions of people around the globe. A licensed clinical psychologist in private practice, couples therapist, speaker, Author and professor, Dr. Alexandra Solomon is passionate about translating cutting edge research and clinical wisdom into practical, practical tools people can use to bring awareness about what the hell, curiosity and authenticity to their relationships. She is the host of the Reimagining love podcast and author of Love Every day. Taking sexy back. How to own your sexuality and create relationships you want and loving bravely. 20 lessons of self discovery to help you get the love you want. She is also a friend of the pod circle. Thank you for being here, Dr. Solomon.

[Abby Wambach]

Hi.

[Amanda Doyle]

This is a thrill. So happy to be with all of you, truly.

[Glennon Doyle]

Same When I was thinking about this topic, which I think about with some frequency, my favorite card I ever saw in the card store on the front it says get better soon. And you open it up and it says, I know you're not sick, but I think you could be better.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, just soon. And like, don't delay.

[Glennon Doyle]

Just really soon. Get better soon is my message to you. And I just feel like a lot of us are walking around our relationships with the get better soon outlook. We just think you could be better. And so just a little, just a little, just a little bit better. I am so excited to talk about this idea of what do we accept? What do we change? Can we accept while we change? Can you kick off the way a person like you would talk about it? That isn't. I think you could be better.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Wait, is Dr. Solomon gonna bring us the wisdom to know the difference? Is Dr. Solomon?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

So we are today bringing the serenity prayer from all of my 12 step meetings to relationships. I wake up every day, look at my partner and I say, dear God, grant me the courage to change the things I can about Abby, the serenity to accept things I cannot change about Abby, and the wisdom to know the difference. Bring us the wisdom to know the difference. Doctor.

[Abby Wambach]

I don't think that that applies to, to people, but here we go.

[Amanda Doyle]

Here we go. Well, let's see how far we get. This is one of these questions that I think each of us carries into our relationship. I've been married to Todd Solomon for 26 plus years and same every day. I'm like, where is that line? And so I think what we can do is operationalize it, try to understand it, help us have some tools, understand where those questions come from inside of us, given our history. So, and I want us to be careful that any easy answer isn't going to be an answer that sticks anyways, right? I think so much of my work, so much of this idea of relational self awareness is not that we get to answers, but just that we create ever more capacity inside of ourselves to sit with complexity, mystery, paradox, humility, accountability, right? All of that. Because the bottom line is the people that we love most, our Partners we're talking about today. But also our kids are like these forever teachers. When my husband does some behavior, I'm just like, where does that come from? He's a teacher to me. I have a moment. In that moment, I have a chance. I'm gifted the chance to look at my judgments, my fears, perhaps my longings. A lot of times, the things that I judge in him are the things that actually would really benefit me if I'm doing it. That man goes and lays down and takes a nap, and I'm like, there's no time for napping. But that judgment of him is actually a massive invitation, as Glennon looks at Abby, to look at what? So those are some initial thoughts. It's just that it's less about figuring out the answer and more about being able to stay with the curiosity of the question.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Cool.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love that when you talk about also this dynamic, that there's usually one person in the relationship that's the acceptor and one that's the changer. Can you talk about that kind of imbalance? Is it not that just one person needs to be changed and so the other person's the changer? Or is it possible that that is also at play?

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Oh, sister, shut up already. I'm just being very honest.

[Amanda Doyle]

So in. In our field, we talk a lot about these things called dialectics, right? Like, there's an entire methodology of therapy called dialectic behavior therapy. Well, dialectic is a space where two things are true at the same time. These, like, both and spaces. Our mental health is stronger when. When we can sit with our own. Both ands. You know that beautiful Walt Whitman line that I know you all love too, like that I contain multitudes. The more that we are willing to be really compassionate and curious about our own multitudes. That's one level of a dialectic is I am both nervous and excited. I am both loving to be connected to people and loving my solitude. Okay, fine. So that's one level of the dialectic. But then we fall in love, and we build these partnerships, and they are these relational dialectics. A relationship needs both stability and change. You know, our relationships are healthiest when there are elements of consistency and steadiness and elements of growth and change. The problem with a dialectic is because there are two facets and usually two people in a relationship, it's really easy for a couple to sort of do in the therapy world. We call it, like, splitting the ambivalence. You know, one partner holds all of one facet, and one partner holds all of the other facet. And then when we get kind of split around that, it's really easy for us to judge the other one's way of being. And in my world, and also in your world, most likely your pod squad is full of folks who are the ones who are always like, what's the next podcast? What's the next edge? What are we working on? How are we evolving? Right? The ones who are really embracing change and growth and healing and peeling back another layer of the onion and so, so easily. Then we look at our partners and we're like, what are you doing over there? You know, and it looks like nothing, but in fact, in fact, that ability to hold steady, to hold onto everything that is bountiful and plentiful and good in this relationship right now as it is, that's a really important energy.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Can you say that again? Because I think we're speaking to a lot of these changing folks who are peeling back the onion. Say it again, slower. For those partners who are the accepting folks, it's a very important part of a relationship.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. Yeah. And I listen, I tell you what, because I, you know, I'm sitting with college students right, in my office hours. I teach at Northwestern, so I've got that generation and that relational moment. I'm sitting with couples in their 40s, 50s, 60s. So this, and this is a transcendent theme, you know, across all relationship stages, which is that the one who's always looking for the next edge, the next layer, can we go deeper? Can we expand further? What else is possible for us? That feels like such the right way to be. And it is. Listen, it's a beautiful, beautiful way to be, but there's something equally beautiful, essential, and like elemental about being able to hold center and just be. Like, when I look at you, I love who you are. I love what we've created. I love the track we're on. I am holding center. That's not a lack of effort. That's not a give up stance. That is a quality of relationship that is quite essential.

[Abby Wambach]

I love it.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

It's like, it reminds me. Okay, so it's like there's yin yoga and there's yang yoga, and it's like yoga where you're doing all the stretchy, hard, pushy yoga where everyone's trying to get more flexible and everyone's pushing the boundaries and trying. Crow is like one kind of yoga, but there's yin yoga, which I used to feel like, why are we just sitting here? What the hell's going on?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, it's my favorite.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

And the teacher said, this is the other side of yoga. This is where we do not stretch further. We appreciate what is. And it is as equally important as the other kind of yoga. So it's like two kinds of yoga in the relationship. One person is stretchy, pushy, and one person is rest in what is. And they're both equal.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. What is the back and forth that the two of you are giving each other? Like, is it really obvious in your relationship who tends towards which pole?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, it is. Glennon is definitely the pusher, the changer, the always trying to. I wouldn't say optimize, but always trying to go deeper. I am this. The. What would you call me? I.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Well, I used to think you were lazy, and now I think you're enlightened. And I'm not at all exaggerating about either of those words. I used to think, wait, it's just accepting is just like not doing anything. It's not creative. It's not alive.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like complacent.

[Amanda Doyle]

Stagnant.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, stagnant.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

And now the healthier I get, truly, the more therapy I do, the more untriggered I become, the more I see how Abby lives and accepts as utterly what I need. And absolutely beautiful.

[Abby Wambach]

And on the converse, I mean, this just happened yesterday. The kind of person Glennon is is so fascinating to me, and it inspires me because I see so much progress and growth and deepening in her that I want also for myself. And I always say that she's, like, one or two years ahead of me in the personal development stuff that she's trying to achieve, and whether it's therapy or whatever, but it's so important for me. I need a model in that way. And also I can do these things and create kind of a center. And I think that it's also providing an opportunity for you, Glennon, when I am in those like, this last year has been a big growth year for me and a big change year for me, and Glennon has held the center. She has been so steady and so stable for me that it has given me the courage and the space to be able to actually reach into these kind of corners, darker corners of myself.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Is that what's healthier? Because you can become polarized. I'm this one, you're that one. But when you think of it as just a cycle of creation, like, I always think of Abby as Sunday. I'm like, let's make the clouds, let's make the water, let's make the whatever. And then Abby's like, let's stop and look at it and call it good. That's the Sunday of creation. Right. So it just feels fairer to get it out of our bodies and into what is needed. And then we each get to step into, like, pushing and acceptance. And now we've derailed you.

[Abby Wambach]

Sorry.

[Glennon Doyle]

Please go ahead.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, sorry.

[Amanda Doyle]

No, there's no derailment because I think what both of you are speaking to also, I call that the power couple potential. When a couple can really move from the polarization to that awareness of, thank goodness, thank goodness we've got somebody who's got an eye on the horizon, and thank goodness we've got somebody who's holding steady. That's the power couple potential. How beautiful that there's no redundancy, there's complementarity. And in fact, Abby, what you were speaking to is that then, like, from that place of more true acceptance, now you guys have been able to even play with a different way of doing it where Abby has been able to grow and Glennon has held center. But I think so often I'm glad that you're speaking to Glenn. And when you were saying, like, back in the day, the way you perceived Abby in the worst of moments of this was laziness. Because that is. I mean, that's so often what happens. Right. Is the change partner views the acceptance partner as lazy, and the acceptance partner views the change partner as constantly pushing and nothing is enough for you. And I think the core wound then inside of the acceptance partner is a fear of nothing I do is enough. And that very likely has old family of origin layers. Right. Like, it may start to feel like, this is how it was in my family.

[Abby Wambach]

Bingo.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. So then the change partner, they're not doing it intentionally, but they are, like, again and again tripping that wire inside of the acceptance partner of feeling like, I'm not enough, Nothing I do is going to satisfy you. And then the fear of, like, I'm going to be left, I'm going to be abandoned, you know, and then of course, the change partner way of being is also informed by family of origin stuff very often. So when couples get locked in, it's. So I think for all of us, when we're in pain, we get really, like, myopic. You know, we just focus on our own feelings and really quite sure of our perception of our partner. And so the way that we're talking about it now, I think invites us into that bigger perspective about the cycle and the pattern and the way that these two ways of being can really play off each other for better or for worse.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Yep, that's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Self fulfilling prophecy too, a little bit, huh?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, right. It's a co created dynamic that then ends up confirming each partner's worst case fear for sure. Yeah. Amanda, in my relationship I'm also the change partner Like, I tend toward that pole. And it for sure is family of origin stuff for me. You know, I grew up as the oldest daughter in a family system that struggled, and it was. I was constantly on the lookout for what was the next thing and what might happen and felt so much responsibility. And so that is certainly the underneath layers that get missed. Right. When all the acceptance partner is doing is just viewing their change partner as itchy and as you said, demanding and controlling and nothing is enough. Yeah. It is missing that scared young kid who needed to be vigilant for actual, like, survival. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And are both people just trying to do their best to love each other in that situation? Because for me, I know that when I'm standing on the bow looking for stuff, I'm like, this is my greatest act of love, even though it is not experienced as love in my relationship. And I know that, and I think John is probably like, my greatest act of love is metabolizing the needs of this relationship, holding steady, loving through it, whatever. I mean, we're evolving to the place. This is like a little while back where we were very entrenched in this. But it feels like you're just trying to love each other. But it's the thing in a relationship that is causing the most angst, right?

[Amanda Doyle]

It is, for sure. Because I think so often what the change partner is seeing in our minds, it is, this would be good for everybody. This would be a win for everybody. So it does, right? It feels loving and it feels obvious and it feels possible. And it feels like, this is what I do to love you.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, well, and I have, like, a follow up to that, because I'm thinking here about the wounds, the things that kind of propel us into ways of being, whether it's in romantic relationships or friendships. To me, I mean, sister, I think what you said is really important. It's like a way of loving, but I think it's like a way of being seen on, like, a really deep level. Here I am offering you this way of being, whether it's through holding steady or being the one on the bow of the Titanic looking for icebergs, though they look like and feel like very different occupations in a way, and very different roles. I feel like it's important that we talk really in depth about the wound, like, the real why of that all. Because to me, that's something that Glennon and I have had to do a lot of work on. Like, oh, what are these wounds? We do a lot of parts work, but the wound of it and the why of it. Glennon, have you been told your whole life, like, oh, you're too much. Right?

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

I don't know. That's what I interpret everyone as saying to me. They might not be saying that. Or, like, too critical, needy, troublemaker vibes. Like, why can't you just not notice that? Why can't you just be happy? Why can't you just leave it the way it is? Why? You know, that sort of vibe.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah. When I'm just thinking about the strife of otherness, because that's what this is. It's like not accepting that we are different. And I think it's amazing because these two qualities are the most essential ingredients to having a successful relationship.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

So I don't have a question, but I think it's important to, like, discuss the deeper wounds of it before we kind of keep going on in our conversation.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right? Yep. Well. And I love the way that you're saying that, Abby, that it is when the change partner is expressing what if? Or, here's what I'm noticing, or here's what I'm feeling, it truly is like a desire to feel seen. And if. And if my history is that nothing I ever did was seen or noticed in my family, then when the acceptance partner rolls their eyes and says, here you go again, it is a wound in that exact same spot, inadvertently. Right. But in that exact same spot. So. So many of the claims or requests or desires expressed by the change partner are really just like, I want my voice to be heard. And the thing about hearing somebody's voice is sometimes the request, the request may sort of like, wither on the vine, you know, it may not be that it goes anywhere or actually has to change as much as just it has to be validated that what you are bringing up makes sense. The fact that you notice that makes sense. And sometimes it's just in the validation of it that then the change partner can be like, okay, I'm not crazy. I'm seen, I'm known, I'm safe. I know.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

We just talked about that. I said to a business partner, okay, because I think this plays out not just in relational, like, romantic relationships, in business relationships, in whatever. I have a business partner who was driving me batshit, honestly, because every time I pointed something out, I said, did you see that? Did you see how that. What happened? Did you see that email?

[Abby Wambach]

Did.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Did you see how that person said that she is amazing and loves me, but her fear is Glennon's gonna go batshit? I noticed that too. But what I have to do Is say, oh, that was no big deal.

[Amanda Doyle]

Not a big deal? Not a big deal.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

No, no. Or like, what do you mean? It was fine.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, to, like, see, saw and counteract.

[Amanda Doyle]

Your strong action to attempt to keep you from.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

I had to say to her just yesterday on the phone, I said, I think that when I notice something, you get scared. And so you think the best thing to do is downplay it. And I need you to know that that is making me insane. It makes me feel gaslit. It makes me feel like you're not on my side. It makes me feel like crazy. It completely invalidates my. And so what I am saying to you is, I promise you, if you stop doing that, if you admit Glenn and I also saw that that was fucked up, then I will be able to move on. I will not blow things up. But I need you to not pretend that you don't see what I see just because you're afraid of what I'm going to do.

[Abby Wambach]

And that's happened in our marriage.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

I mean, and Glennon was able to actually verbalize how lonely it was being the person on the bow of the Titanic and how when I would placate her or even gaslight her just to keep the peace, that was infuriating. So I actually had to do some work on to actually say, yeah, I noticed that too. Oh, I. Yep, I saw that too. And it was like, it was a total game changer for us, for sure.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

It's unpolarizing.

[Amanda Doyle]

It makes it unpolarizing.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Then I get to go, oh, okay, cool. What are we gonna do? Like, I get to be the big, accepting, nice one, too.

[Amanda Doyle]

Totally. And, Glennon, I'd be curious to hear you speak to this, because what research has shown is the more when you raise a concern, the more the other person validates the concern. Then actually, over time, with repeated examples of that, the less likely you are to bring a thing up. If you feel like, I don't need to bring it up.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

I don't need. So that's what the research. So that's right. So you are less likely to do this thing with your business partner the more she says, yeah, got it. Noted it. I saw that too. Then, yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like you're fighting for your existence.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

And when someone, like, honors your existence, when someone's like, yep, yep, that's a real thing. You're like, oh, then I don't have to go around the. Spend my life proving that these things are real. I could just live my life because.

[Amanda Doyle]

We've all decided these things are real well. And I feel my heart like so full of compassion for both roles, you know, because the one who's saying not a big deal, like they truly are, like their intent is to help the other person feel okay. Like the intent. But what we know also from the research is that intent gets you nowhere. It's all about impact, you know, so even though the acceptance partner's heart is just so in such a beautiful place of just wanting their person to feel okay, it's misguided and it is actually ineffective. Right. To your example, Glennon.

[Abby Wambach]

One of the things that I think that has been probably the most eye opening for me is I was so afraid that if I started pointing out all of the things that Glennon brought up, that everything would feel on fire and untenable. And for sure what you just said is true that because I have now kind of started to acknowledge the things that I feel are actually fucked up and a little bit fiery. The things that she would just blanket name all these things, but now she just doesn't. She doesn't acknowledge some of the things that are less big of a deal because it feels like dramatic, you know, some of these things. And so it's like this great equalizer that it's happened. And now I find myself being like, God, that, that felt weird. And she's like, oh, interesting. And we're able to actually not get triggered. We're able to actually see things more clearly. Because when you're not being acknowledged, everything is high intensity and you have to be on high alert with yes, but now it's not yes.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Every time she says that felt weird, I want to lay down on the ground and cry of happiness.

[Glennon Doyle]

Such a burden. Relieved.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. I can think about just. I'm like flashing on sessions with couples, you know, where one partner is saying, you know, making a criticism, even like one that's really difficult, like criticizing something about their partners family dynamic, you know, your mom is like this. Your mom. And the partner has been kind of defending, minimizing. Da, da. And then the moment when the partner says, oof, my mom, when she made that comment today, and you just see the other partner lay down on the ground and cry. And it doesn't mean that we're cutting off mom. It doesn't mean that mom's a terrible person, but it just means we're moving into a place where observations can be made and contained. And the more space there is to make those observations, then the less likely it is that anything has to blow up or lead to some big, dramatic thing, and the relationship then can hold the observations.

[Glennon Doyle]

What do we do? It seems to me there's, like, a couple of planes that this whole dynamic can go on. One is the, like, I feel ostensibly higher level, right? Where it's like, I feel like our relationship. Maybe we should go to therapy and work on this thing. Or I feel like we. We can really open up this space in our parenting, or we can really, like, the kind of executive level, let's level up situation. And then there's, I feel like, a lower plane where this works out, which is just like the daily criticism, nitpicking. Why did you leave five minutes before you should have been there?

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Why?

[Glennon Doyle]

Why are you on the phone when the person walks in the house? Why are you like, Is it hypothetically?

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

What's that hypothetically?

[Glennon Doyle]

Just totally theoretically. But sometimes the lower level feels like you're doing the higher level thing, which is like, I want to be the type of family that. So are they the same thing that's happening on both? Like, is the one that's the, like, nitpicking one on the lower level, the change pusher on the higher level?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. I can see that in therapy, we call it an isomorph. Like, here's the one version of it, and here's the next version of it. So, yes, these are isomorphs of each other. And the higher level one, or, like, not higher level, like, more important, but it's like the more macro one about therapy. If I'm in a relationship where I've been suggesting for a long time that we do some therapy together, and I feel like I've had that door shut in my face again and again and again. I'm so much more likely then to be irritated by the fact that you are on the phone to be irritated by that. I say, whenever I have, like, an audience of people in front of me, I'm like, go to couple therapy. The first time your partner asks when I have a couple. And at the first session, it's really clear that one's been asking for so long and the other is finally there. It's really. It's not impossible. We just have more. We've got more work to do. You know, we gotta really roll up our sleeves and, like, spend so much time kind of taking these bricks out of the wall. And obviously both things have to happen. The one who's pushing for couple therapy needs to also say things like, rather than doing the if you love me, you would. Doing the. It would mean so much to me, and here's why. It would mean so much to me. Like, keeping it really personal. Not like a good partner would or you should. Should. But really, like, I get scared about X, Y or Z, or I love us so much that I want us to be stacking the deck in our favor. Or can we just try? Or can we look together and, you know, find a provider together? And I know obviously couple therapy is fraught with all kinds of things that have to do with privilege and access, but even short of that, can we listen to this podcast episode together? There's a way in which it just puts a relationship at risk. When one partner is saying, what if we just stretch a little bit in this way and the other partner has got their arms crossed and doesn't want to do any of it? That distance is going to grow. You know, it's going to be like the pebble in the shoe that just becomes such a wound. And then to your point, Amanda, is it just. Then it plays out. Then it plays out. And it's really hard to cut them any kind of slack because if I'm not getting this bigger, ask this. That feels so vital and feels like it's something we both need and would benefit from. If I'm not getting that, then of course every little thing you do is going to feel like the bane of my existence. Tell me how that lands.

[Glennon Doyle]

It does. And I think that it's funny, when you were saying, I think sometimes the little. The quote unquote, little things are really about. I'm so afraid that. Also, I'm so afraid that our kids won't feel important to you. So I need you to do this. I'm so afraid. They seem like little nitpicky things, but they really. Those little things are really tied often to big things that are fierce. That's interesting, but it's viewed as just kind of being bitchy, you know, like little tiny things.

[Amanda Doyle]

Foreign.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

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[Glennon Doyle]

When you say the person's arms crossed and they're just like, I'm not going. Other than your kind of, you know, run of the mill asshole who's not willing to do it. People who actually love each other, what's going on in the person who is like, no, I'm not gonna go. What have you seen with someone who has been like successfully through it and worked their way through it, who initially was like, that's a no for me?

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, one thing that happens in couple therapy is when a couple is held well by a couple therapist, there's nowhere to hide for either of them. So I think what happens, the person with their arms folded feels like what this therapy is going to be is the therapist and my partner telling me all the ways in which I'm doing it wrong.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

So who would want to go into that situation? Like, I've got my partner right here telling me what I'm doing wrong. Why do I need to be paying a therapist to also tell me that? And the one who's pushing for therapy often feels like we need to go to therapy so that therapist can help me finally drill into my partner's head, you know, and so then what we hope happens in couple therapy is that there's just this like relational frame. I call it like the golden equation of love. Every model of couple therapy is built on my stuff plus your stuff equals our stuff. Right. Every model of therapy has got some way of moving people out of this simple, linear story of if you'd stop, this would get better. If you'd do more, this would get better into a more robust story of the more you do this, the more I do this, the more I do this. What we were talking about before, right? And then we both end up co creating this thing that hurts us both. And so that oftentimes is the point where you see that reluctant partner's shoulders drop and you see them lean in a bit more. It's just like, oh, this is not about me being wrong and hard headed and not getting it. This is about a way that we are each contributing to this dynamic.

[Abby Wambach]

Can I just say one really quick thing, because I think this is important, especially for anyone listening who might feel that they are wanting the more change in the relationship and maybe take their partner to therapy and their partner's a little bit, you know, hesitant to do that because I. Not that I've been anti therapy at all, but I remember a time in my life where I was very stubborn and kind of set in my quote, unquote, set in my ways. And my biggest issue was that I feared that my partner didn't love who I was now. And because I was a person and still am in some ways that really, like, I needed to have that as like the known factor in order to even move my body into any kind of a changing mindset. This is familial, old stuff for me for sure. And I think when I found Glennon, I found a partner in me that was able to reinforce that knowing over and over again. Because it's like a test. A lot of us acceptors who are like, stable and grounded, it's almost like this weird thing that we're like, it's self fulfilling prophecy in a way that we're like testing our partner to see if they really do love us without needing to do anything different. And I don't know what the fix for that is, but I know that for Glennon, it was the continued reinforcement that she did love me, but she did want us to grow.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

And.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, but.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

And change doesn't have to. I don't think of change as something's bad. So you change it. I think of change as the way of life.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

But I also think that for the changers out there, I feel such empathy for the acceptors. I really do now. And to the changers out there, if you think you're taking your person into couples therapy so that you can change their shit, I just have a warning for you, okay. Like, if you go in and you're doing it with an open heart and an open mind, bringing the serenity prayer to your marriage, you might eventually find out that it is largely you, you who cannot see the beauty and gorgeousness and what you need in your life with that person who you married on purpose for a reason because you knew in your heart they were an acceptor.

[Glennon Doyle]

Or even more beautifully, they are the ones that let you see the places you need to heal.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Right?

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's not your fault that you can't stand your partner. It's. Oh, the fact that you can't stand your partner in this way is shining this, like, beautiful light, as painful as it is on this place that's like, you actually can choose to not live from that space of that pain. You can change that whole thing. And that's something that I think is a great segue into this, like, kind of, what do we control? What do we accept? What's our line? Where we're like, this is me, this isn't you. Because when something happens that triggers you, it's very hard in that moment to know, okay, is this something that I ask to be different? It has upset me if God, just use the random example phone, something that's actually not a big, big one in our lives, but like using the phone at the dinner table, whatever it is.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

What's the analysis? The kind of flowchart decision where it's like, this is upsetting me. Is this my stuff? Do I need to find like a piece with this stuff that has something to do with, like, why can't I be at peace while this thing is happening that's bothering me? Or is this Something I need to ask to change. Ask my partner to make this modification, or is this, like, this is who that person is, and I can rail against the machine for the next 30 years, or I can just be like, my person does that. Like my John. It's physically impossible to put the top on the compost. I was upset about it for a while, and then I'm like, you know what? Now it's like a fun exercise. When I walk back and put the top on the compost, I'm like, look at me accepting reality. And I get really bad at myself.

[Amanda Doyle]

So proud of yourself.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I don't make a snarky comment like, well, I guess I'll just shut this compost.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you want to smell the coffee beans? I just put it on, and then I walk away and feel so proud.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Oh, sissy.

[Amanda Doyle]

Such a badass. Such a badass. Years ago in our marriage, my husband developed this thing called the alley tax. I'm alley in my personal life, and he calls it the alley tax. So, like, the fact that there's going to be a parking ticket from every. Like, the idea of Todd getting a parking ticket just would never, ever happen. I get a parking ticket. The fact that right there are things, the whatever, the toothpaste. I mean, any number of things where he just. It's the alley tax. It is the price he pays for loving me. And it is, you know, this whole acceptance change thing we're working on, it is like, in being accepted in that way, right? From that place of knowing I'm accepted in that way that sometimes motivates me to do better. Like, I don't want to get a parking ticket. I don't want to have him pay that tax. I want him to feel proud of me, you know, doing things that I know matter to him.

[Abby Wambach]

That's good.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Okay, so how do we know. How do we know if it's their behavior that has to change or if it's our annoyance about the behavior that has to change?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. What is our work and their work and couples work.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, Amanda, you had said a while ago something, I think, that was so important about, like, the little thing. It's a little thing, right? It's about whatever it was looking up from your phone when somebody walks in the room. It's little, it's micro. It happens in two seconds or less. But it is tied to this deeper meaning, Right. It says something to me about how we. What we convey to our kids about our values or who we are. So I think that couples get locked in about this. Change it, accept it, change it, acceptance. We get locked in on that when we haven't gotten to the deeper roots of it, and then when we can get to the deeper roots of it of like, tying this annoyance of mine to something from my family of origin, a role I played, a way that I hated to feel, something I yearned for but didn't get, that often becomes a compassion opener that then motivates our partner. I have this example from years ago, a graduate, I was teaching this to my grad students. And one of my grad students, like, her eyes filled up with tears and she's like, ah, I get it. Okay. I have this boyfriend, we moved in together, we live in Chicago. We have this tiny ass apartment with this little closet, and he wants to stack the closet floor to ceiling with paper towel. It makes no sense to me. Like, why would we use our space in that way? So we would go round and round. Change it, don't change it, accept it, don't accept it. Until he said to me, listen, when I grew up, he had grown up in a space where he was, you know, incredibly poor, didn't have the things he needed. And he said, when I open that closet door and I see it stacked with paper towel, it's like the little boy in me who didn't have what he needed when he was little, feels safe. And she was like, okay, it is now my mission to keep this closet full because it's a way that I can tend to my partner's younger self. You know, that's just a really powerful example to me of like, okay, all right. Dissolved. Power struggle. Dissolved.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Wow. Because that suddenly is like this thing that the person is doing. That makes no sense. That makes no sense. You don't put your only closet full of paper towels and then you're like, oh, actually that makes perfect sense. That's exactly what you should do with that closet. So you have to figure out the sense making and the pain under the thing that's bothering you because it could be very. It could be an intentional thing that is happening and it could be a.

[Amanda Doyle]

Really endearing thing when looked at differently, when understood differently. Listen, it's very hard to be understanding when we feel criticized. Yeah, right. That's a really hard moment. My partner's criticizing me and somehow I'm supposed to not only not get defensive, but also get curious and explore with them about what might be the family of origin wound that's guiding their behavior. So this, I think, has to happen, you know, in pieces oftentimes. Not in the moment when we're in tension or we're in conflict. So I'm a huge fan of teaching couples, like, to pause, just pause, step away. And in the stepping away, asking each of them to, like, look at their part of the dance, their part of the activation. Like, what does. What does this moment remind me of? What is the ghost in the room from my past? And then when we come back together, can we sit shoulder to shoulder and look together at it and kind of add those pieces? Well, for me, I think there's something going on here around the way I used to feel when I was younger. Well, for me, there's something going on, you know, and that doesn't make the problem go away, because there are times where you still have to make a decision about how are we going to do this thing going forward. But you've at least opened up a sense of. You've put the problem outside of the two of you. Right. It's no longer me versus you. That's a game changer. And now we're collaboratively looking together at what's gonna create more ease.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, God, that's so beautiful. I'm always astounded by how good my husband is at this, and I'm wondering if this is, like, a general acceptor quality, which would be very convenient if it was that, like, I tend to take things personally. And, like, in our couple therapy, when it comes out, the thing that I'm so upset about, it doesn't even make sense, actually does make sense in the context of, like, my fears or things that happened to me prior. And he's able to say, oh, wow, okay. I can see that this thing that used to be like is directed at me, but it's not at all about me. And I can accept that about you and adapt to it, which is really another amazing thing about the acceptor way of being.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Yeah. They seem less defensive, in my general opinion, than the changers.

[Amanda Doyle]

Not initially, right? Not initially. I think initially they can be, but. Yes. But you know, what makes me think is that when the change partner is also a woman, then, you know, because, Abby, you were speaking. I wanted to go back to what you were saying about, like, the couple therapy. The one who's more resistant to couple therapy being so afraid that that means that you don't love me as I am, and that then what's so helpful is for the change partner to convey, I love you as you are, and I want more for us that what we would call, like, reassurance for somebody who's been socialized as a girl or a woman in our culture, that can feel like nails on the chalkboard. You've gotta be effing kidding me. I now need to not only be in the bow of the Titanic watching for the shoe to drop, making sure everything's okay, but also reassuring you that you're okay. It just ends up feeling like more emotional labor. So I think that, Amanda, you're spot on that sometimes the change partner has a harder time relaxing into. Okay. I can see it from your perspective because it sometimes feels like, are we making an excuse for this? Am I now being expected to reassure you? It can feel like more work on top of more work where I don't think it lands like that for the acceptance part.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Abby Wambach]

The way that I'm kind of thinking about it differently right now for the first time is it's almost like if you have these three buckets, you have the acceptor, you have the changer, and then you have the relationship. And both people are filling this bucket of the relationship one way or another. Rather than. I think in my past, I thought it was we. You could get into these roles of, like, you versus me, and, like, trying to get the other person to be more of an acceptor and trying to get the person to be more of a changer rather than saying, no, like, we just need to keep filling this bucket. Because I also think that the changer doesn't want to be changed in a way. I think that, like, they like who they are and it's like, oh, and not quite like. So it's like trying to create a bigger bucket of the relationship is what we're trying to do, not trying to wholeheartedly change who the individuals are in the relationship.

[Amanda Doyle]

You're inviting us to put space between, like, the self and just, like, the needs of the relationship. Right. That my desire. I'm more than just my desire for change. I also want to accept and be accepted. The acceptor is more than just the stick in the mud. The acceptor also is curious about things and is evolving in their own way on their own timeline and their own. Yeah. And that both of those. That they have the ability to bring both those qualities to the relationship. When you frame it out that way, it's just so much more neutral. The stakes get lower. We're not fighting for proof of who we are, proof that our way is a good way.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

The changer's like, I'm afraid our fire is going to go out. And the acceptor is like, I'm afraid you're going to set everything on fire.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

And basically, if both people are like, we're going to kindle this fire together. We're going to watch, we're going to kindle, we're going to both do it together, then neither person has to be polarized into their fear as much. Is that fair or is that just change you're trying to change the other person to do some.

[Amanda Doyle]

No, I think it's beautiful. I think it's beautiful. And also what it does then is it gives the acceptor. Like, I think also about. I think sometimes the acceptor doesn't change purely because it freaking sucks to change because somebody else told you to change.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

You know, and if. And if you grew up in a family where you were constantly being tweaked or told or demanded or, like, forced to apologize, go apologize to your sister, then staying as you are is actually an act of sovereignty. It feels inside of the acceptor.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Like, damn it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I feel that.

[Amanda Doyle]

And so then the changer does have to actually back up to give the acceptor the gift of being able to step back sovereignly into a change without the change or being like, see, I told you. Isn't that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I'm glad you finally went to couple therapy so you could figure out that my change was good idea for you.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, and I think that this is also really difficult for people like that are in more of a marginalized community. Like, I had to literally sovereignty. Talk about sovereignty, step into my own self. Because in the 90s and the early 2000s, like, queerness was not popular or loved. And in many places it's still not. And so there is a part of me that was like, this is who I am and I am not, and I cannot bend because otherwise I will die. It feels like life or death. So it's also learning that, like, you are not always in those places where you needed to literally, like, get yourself out of in order to survive.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, Abby, you're inviting anybody who's listening to add that layer of what the culture has told you and taught you that also then informs. It's a, I mean, just such an important layer to weave in. Also, that, like, that acceptance piece is a resistance and a protest and a demanding of, like, I, I, I will not go back into any way that I've been told I have to be. Yeah, that's really important.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

That's helpful.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, this is so beautiful. I'm so grateful for this conversation. And I think John and I have been working on this for a few years in therapy. And I. I feel like we have just arrived at the point where it's like, oh, what you were just talking about. He's like, there is change that I want to have, and I'm getting it. Not because you said it, but because I want it. And then the reverse is true. There is this way of being that is accepting, fully loving and accepting. I'm like, oh, I want what you're having for me. Because really, I only criticize and change this relationship and you to the extent that I am constantly always criticizing and trying to change myself, I want to practice that with me, by me, for me, on myself.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

Cool.

[Glennon Doyle]

And he's doing the same with the change stuff, and it's just a really kind of full circle back to. It all starts with you, and it can end that way, too. And it's. It's just the hardest beautiful thing.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's the hardest beautiful thing. And as you're saying that, it makes me think about grief. You know, like the grief for. For the years when you couldn't accept yourself. I think about that with my own. Of everything. I step into every iteration, then highlights often the grief of the way I used to live and the way I used to talk to myself or those places. So I think that's right for both you and John in that work. It's like, also like having that space for grief, like the partner who wants to be like, see, I told you so. That desire, that urge is just a reflection of grief. Right? The grief of the years that I felt like you couldn't hear me or wouldn't hear me or didn't hear me. So to be, like, tender with the grief while also being appreciative of the new possibility, it's hard.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

We can do hard things. I've heard we can do hard things.

[Glennon Doyle]

We can do hard things or accept hard things or just whatever the hell. Thank you, Alexandra Solomon. You are the best. And lucky for you, podsco squad, Dr. Solomon is coming back to talk to us about. What the hell do you do when you feel like work is getting in the way of love? Love, Work, work, love. What to do. See you next time.

[Dr. Alexandra Solomon]

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to we can do hard things. Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this. Just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Walmart Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, and Bill Schultz.