← We Can Do Hard Things
We Can Do Hard Things
CARE-FRONTATIONS: Three Keys for Giving & Receiving Criticism (Best Of)
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- [00:00]
Glennon Doyle
I'm always looking for small ways to upgrade my day. And that's exactly what Masterclass has become for me. I can learn from the best minds out there in just a few minutes, whether it's in line at the coffee shop or winding down at night. I took James Clears class on building habits and wow. I mean, obviously he's a big time author and one of the biggest takeaways I got is that you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. I've actually implemented a morning habit stack and I feel way more productive without burning out. With plans. Starting at just $10 a month, billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes from the world's best thinkers, creators and leaders. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at Masterclass.com/hard things. That's 15% off at Masterclass.com hardthings Masterclass.com hardthings there's just something about summer. The sun's out longer, everything slows down a little, and suddenly a getaway feels not just nice, but necessary. A couple summers ago, my friends and I escaped to the mountains and found this incredible Airbnb cabin. Big windows, warm breezes, and views that looked like they belonged on a postcard. We grilled outside, watched the sunset every and actually had room to breathe. Way more than a hotel could have offered. Summer is the perfect time to travel, whether it's a weekend at the lake, a beach trip with the kids, or a mountain retreat with friends. And with Airbnb, it's easy to find places that feel like a home away from home. More space, more privacy, and way more room for memories. When I was growing up, summer trips meant cramming into one tiny hotel room. But now with Airbnb, everyone gets to stretch out, relax, and still be together. So if summer's calling, book one of the most loved homes on Airbnb. It's the best way to soak up the season in total comfort and style.
- [02:14]
Abby Wambach
Oh yeah, me. Okay, we've just been sitting here staring at each other.
- [02:18]
Amanda Doyle
Hi.
- [02:19]
Glennon Doyle
I'm going to see.
- [02:20]
Abby Wambach
I usually kick this off. Welcome to we can do hard things. We are thrilled and delighted.
- [02:26]
Amanda Doyle
Okay, God bless you and keep you. And all the rest of you too are here.
- [02:30]
Abby Wambach
Do you know that people say God bless you because in the olden days when people sneezed, they thought that evil spirits got into your body during the sneeze. And so people would say God bless you to make sure that the evil spirits didn't settle.
- [02:45]
Glennon Doyle
This is such horseshit.
- [02:47]
Amanda Doyle
Really? I thought it was because your heart stopped when you sneezed, which now that I just said that out loud, I'm.
- [02:52]
Abby Wambach
Embarrassed I said it because that can't be true. You know, sometimes when I say things out loud, I do wonder if I should check them first because my dad used to tell me a lot of things that aren't true just to embarrass me later. Like one time he told me that Spam was called Spam because it was used only in the Spanish American War.
- [03:15]
Glennon Doyle
Oh, like the meat.
- [03:16]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. And I did say that. Spiced ham. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know I said that during a Jeopardy. Jeopardy. Game during college. And everyone was like, you are an idiot. And I was like, oh no, that's true. It's the Spanish American war. So anyway, what's up? How's everybody doing?
- [03:34]
Glennon Doyle
I'm good. I just had a really. I've had a morning. You. You have thrown your back out a touch.
- [03:41]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [03:41]
Glennon Doyle
Pod squad Glennon has been laid up a little bit and I'm good. I'm just running around. Sister, how are you?
- [03:47]
Amanda Doyle
I'm doing great. I'm excited about what we're talking about today.
- [03:51]
Abby Wambach
What are we talking about today?
- [03:52]
Amanda Doyle
We're talking about criticism, feedback, what happens to us when we get it, what we might want to pay attention to, what we might want to throw directly.
- [04:04]
Abby Wambach
Away in terms of present. Wonderful.
- [04:08]
Amanda Doyle
Yes. And so we decided to talk about this because of a situation that happened this summer. So John, my husband, grew up going to this place in Connecticut in the summertime for a couple weeks. His parents are New England people so they wanted to be closer to their families for a couple weeks. And it is this little coast town. There's nothing fancy about it. In fact it is. The little beach looks directly across to a power plant. A giant. That's the view. A giant ass smoking power plant which my mother in law used to pray to to in thankfulness for why they could afford their little cottage. And in thankfulness that it kept away anyone who was snobby or self important.
- [04:57]
Abby Wambach
Nice.
- [04:58]
Glennon Doyle
Cool.
- [04:58]
Amanda Doyle
The point is it's not like what people are looking for on postcards, but we love it. And so we spend some time there every summer. It's like 500 houses, but probably like 200 families because everybody's aunt and grandparent and cousin is there. So it's this little bitty town and we love it because it's like 15 blocks and so it feels like a place for the kids to have independence. They just go on their bikes in the morning and they don't come back till it's time. And it feels like a good place to practice making mistakes so that they can make them on a smaller level instead of a bigger one.
- [05:40]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [05:40]
Amanda Doyle
Anyway, we're up there and Bobby has this very close friend there and I'm gonna call him Charlie. They play all the time. I should back up and say Bobby was a kid who when he was 4, playing basketball at the park, would try to like get people to be thrown out of the game for double dribbling. Like he's always been a very. Just intense, this is the way things should be done type of boy. Unless it's something I tell him.
- [06:11]
Abby Wambach
Right. Do you remember when his father, he comes by this naturally. Do you remember when his father John busted into the kitchen?
- [06:18]
Amanda Doyle
The first time he met.
- [06:19]
Abby Wambach
The first time he met your family, you met Tish because Tish was cheating at Chutes and Ladders. Tish was three.
- [06:25]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [06:26]
Abby Wambach
Okay.
- [06:26]
Amanda Doyle
He called her out.
- [06:27]
Abby Wambach
He called her out, came into the kitchen, told me that Tish was cheating.
- [06:31]
Glennon Doyle
John is a fucking hero.
- [06:33]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [06:33]
Glennon Doyle
So cheating is not okay. Never. Okay. Especially at three.
- [06:38]
Amanda Doyle
The first time he met her and she was three and he came in just exasperating.
- [06:43]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [06:43]
Amanda Doyle
Well, first she came in and was like, John won't play. Right. And then he comes in and he's.
- [06:48]
Abby Wambach
Like, Tish won't play. Right. Yeah.
- [06:50]
Amanda Doyle
So anyway. Yes, he comes find us very naturally.
- [06:53]
Abby Wambach
Okay.
- [06:54]
Glennon Doyle
I love it.
- [06:55]
Amanda Doyle
Bobby is now 10. Right. He should be picking up on a few more social clues. So should have his 40 year old father, but that's fine. So he is playing with Charlie. He loves him, but he starts to be kind of mean. My son, if he thought something was a strike, he and Charlie wanted it to be a ball. He would like perseverate on it and say it was. Why would you say that? You're wrong? You know, kind of just. It started to make Charlie feel bad, unsafe. Like Bobby was being mean to him. Exactly. So this thing happened over the summer where the dad came to John and was like, I need to talk to you about something. This is not going well with the boys. And Bobby is being mean to Charlie and we need to work it out. And so John tells me, I write to the parents, we talk to Bobby, our family goes over and talks to his whole family. We come up with a plan. We come up with like words that Charlie can use if Bobby's slipping into it.
- [08:02]
Abby Wambach
And. And.
- [08:05]
Amanda Doyle
To me it was just so wonderful. I Felt so thankful to be given that because I feel like at home that wouldn't have happened. I feel like at home it would have been like those parents would have said, don't play with Bobby anymore, just ignore him, just. Or they would have said something to other people. And well, you know that kid, we don't want him hanging out. And so it just felt like such a great example of being able to deliver something with the believing in being able to invest in that it could be better. And I just received it as such an investment in us. I felt so grateful for it and it really turned out really well and I feel like we got closer for it and so I just thought it would be interesting to talk about like when it works and when it doesn't work and.
- [09:09]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [09:10]
Glennon Doyle
Can I ask a few follow up questions? Like what do you think is the difference between the community that you spend a few weeks during the summer at and maybe your home community where in your mind it wouldn't have worked? Like what, what do you think made it successful?
- [09:26]
Amanda Doyle
I think because we are all invested in that being able to be there for a long time. It's a small place and so if you are deciding to write someone off, you're writing them off for the next ten years. It reminds me of our Dr. Becky Goodinside situation. They came to us with this idea of like, we know that Bobby is good inside and he is just acting in this way that isn't working and we actually want this to work.
- [10:05]
Abby Wambach
First of all, the small town, big town is, is huge. Huge here because it's like when you're in a huge city, it's in a small town, you don't flick off somebody in your car because you're going to run into them at the grocery store in an hour. In a big city, you're like, whatever, I'm never going to see you again. I mean, granted, it's probably better than anyone else.
- [10:24]
Amanda Doyle
Thank you. Next.
- [10:24]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, yeah. Everybody's dispos. There's no accountability. Because in a small town it's not just that, oh, we want to like be together, we don't want to write anyone off. It's like, no, no, no. If I don't figure this out, it's going to make my life harder too because I'm going to have to avoid this person. It's the stuckness that forces relationship because you have to go through the hard stuff together so you don't make your life in that small place of living hell. But what I'm interested in is the way you're saying it now is different than what you said the dad said to John.
- [11:02]
Amanda Doyle
Okay, what did I say? Because now it's been a long time.
- [11:04]
Abby Wambach
So you said that he said Bobby's being mean to my kid. And yes. So like. But the way you're saying it now made it sound a lot more open. And we know Bobby's a good kid. It sounds like it was presented differently than just like Bobby's being.
- [11:18]
Amanda Doyle
Oh, that's funny. So I have interpreted it differently in light of how it eventually went down then it was presented. Yeah. Okay, so that's interesting because that's the way I remembered it.
- [11:29]
Glennon Doyle
There's a progression here. This is good.
- [11:31]
Amanda Doyle
So yes, Bobby is being mean to Charlie.
- [11:34]
Glennon Doyle
And so how did John receive it and how did John like relay that information to you? Was John pissed? Like was he defensive? Were you pissed? Were you defensive?
- [11:42]
Amanda Doyle
So he said thank you. And he was frustrated with Bobby and I think he felt like icky, but he was grateful. And then I felt icky just at the big picture ness of it, you know, I was like, oh God, we're being called out by somebody. And for being mean, especially very off.
- [12:05]
Abby Wambach
Brand for your family. Exactly, exactly.
- [12:09]
Amanda Doyle
This is devastating to our case. But then I felt seriously so grateful because I. It's so clear to me that this is something that had it happened anywhere else, we wouldn't have had this opportunity. This opportunity to hear it from people who genuinely like us. Hear it from people who genuinely want Bobby and Charlie to be friends and who are willing to make this investment. Cause it was a risk. Like they didn't know what's going on.
- [12:42]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, total risk. And one of the reasons why you were probably open to hearing this or you weren't immediately defensive too is that you recognized some truth in what the people were saying. I've had both experiences where somebody said something to me about my kid and I was like, uh huh. I've seen that, like that soundtrack sounds that tracks. Yeah. And then I've also had the experience where I was like, no, that's about something else. Let's just note that one of the elements here was what was being reported to you. Rang true to you about your kid?
- [13:17]
Amanda Doyle
Yep, you're exactly right. It was not a shock to me. We suck at a lot of things as a family for for Real do. But we have really tried to be intentional about being open eyed to all of our imperfections and challenges. And I've been like this a bunch in my life. When you're like holding relentlessly to this myth of perfection. When someone else gives you feedback, it feels like a threat to your identity, and so you have to reject it.
- [13:48]
Abby Wambach
That's fragility. That's parental fragility. No, my kid's perfect. So I want to. I so badly want to be a good parent and have a good kid that I will not do what it takes to be a good parent with a good kid. I will not stay open to feedback. Because the way that we see our kids, you know, I've read recently, like, the more you stare at something, the less you see it. So we have these stories about our kids and we filter out every single bit of evidence that doesn't fit our story.
- [14:15]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [14:16]
Amanda Doyle
And it applies to us.
- [14:17]
Abby Wambach
Takes a village.
- [14:18]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah, it applies to us, too. I mean, the same exact thing. If I am, like, desperately trying to be perfect and someone calls me out, that is devastating to me. Whereas if I know my flaws like I actually used to. To when my friends would joke with me about, like, oh, Doyle's never going to text you back, I used to feel like a sting and a hurt by that because I didn't like being that. I didn't like being labeled as that. But then when I came to actually just understand that that is true about me, I receive that kind of joking with me as actually feeling good. Because it feels like I am a person who's known and loved, even if that's true.
- [15:03]
Abby Wambach
So sweet. Yeah.
- [15:04]
Amanda Doyle
But that took, like, an acceptance by me to be like, you're exactly right. I am a person who is never going to touch me back. And actually, in the science of this stuff, it's really interesting because I think we come by it really honestly, that initial kind of, you know, freak out when we get criticized. And neuroscience shows that our brains go out of their way to make sure that we always feel like we're in the right, even when we're not. So when you receive criticism, your brain tries to protect you from it, and it receives that as a threat to your place in the order of things, how people perceive you. And so if you think about the hierarchy of needs, you would think that would fall into self esteem, but it actually falls into the much more essential needs of a human, which is safety and belonging. So when someone tells you that, it hits to the core of you. That is the immediate, like, ick.
- [16:02]
Abby Wambach
And that's important for people because it feels narcissistic to feel like, why am I so upset about this criticism? Because I have to be liked by everyone. Why do I have to be liked by everyone. But actually, what's happening is much deeper. What's happening to you is not a desperate need to be liked necessarily. It's a desperate need to be safe. So your very security in the order of things is being threatened, which is why it's like straight to fetal position.
- [16:26]
Glennon Doyle
That's good.
- [16:26]
Amanda Doyle
Exactly. I recognize myself so much in that. Even more. I think this is fascinating because it's one place, Glennon, where I think maybe we cannot trust ourselves. We're always saying, like, trust your instincts, trust yourself, trust your knowing. But actually, what happens to our brains when we receive criticism is that, first of all, we're shocked by it and we're in opposition to it. So that's what you just said of. That is not correct. That's wrong. Second, we don't even recall it accurately. We do not remember accurately what has been presented to us. And then we never forget it.
- [17:05]
Abby Wambach
Is this. This is why whenever we get in an argument with criticism, Abby, it's like half the thing is like, but you said this. And you're like, I didn't say that. And I'm like, but you said this. It's because we're adding the story to what was said. We don't even remember it Right.
- [17:19]
Amanda Doyle
Exactly. Our brains don't remember or retain our mistakes as a feature of our inner landscape. So when we get a criticism, it comes out of left field for us. So it's shocking. A, and then, B, when you hear information that conflicts with your self image, your instinct is to change the information as opposed to changing yourself. So your brain is going to work really hard to manipulate what that information means. That information really isn't that. It's really not about my thing. It's really about this person's thing. Our brains have totally separate wiring for when you receive something that you. That you view as negative or bad than something that's positive. So the circuits handle negative information way more thoroughly than positive information. Our brains are wired to do that. And so almost everyone remembers negative things more strongly and in more detail than positive things.
- [18:20]
Glennon Doyle
That's right.
- [18:20]
Abby Wambach
That's really true. Oh, my God. Every time 40,000 people can say something nice, and one person says something negative, and that's the only thing that sinks in. When we travel, we don't want to feel like a tourist. We want to feel like we belong. That's why we've always loved Airbnb. It helps you unlock the real local side of every place you visit. And it's not just about where you stay. Airbnb experiences. Let you connect with people, try new things and see a city from the inside out. Food, tours, hikes for Abby, art walks for me, even live music for both of us. It's all there and it's all real. We actually got to host one of Airbnb's experiences with Angel City fc and it was so fun. Abby talked soccer, we connected with Angel City fans and we gave folks a chance to see the game and the community upstairs close.
- [19:20]
Glennon Doyle
Even if you didn't know a ton about soccer going in, we made sure everyone felt welcome. We broke down the basics, shared some laughs, and created something that felt both fun and meaningful. Tune in on June 24th to hear all about our first Airbnb experience. Summer's here and honestly, I want to feel good. I want to feel clear, energized and confident in my skin. And that's why Symbiotica has become a total staple in my summer wellness routine. Routine Last year I hit a wall. I felt sluggish, foggy, and my digestion was just off. I wanted something simple but effective. A friend introduced me to Symbiotica and now it's part of my daily ritual. Everything's in liquid form, so it absorbs fast and actually tastes really good. And I have a new favorite. Symbiotica just launched Shilajit Liquid Complex. I've taken it in the morning instead of coffee and it's like flipping a switch. I feel so alert and my mood is instantly lifted. Plus it's infused with Brazilian honey and Peruv cacao. Tastes so good. Be the first to try Symbiotica's new Shilajit Liquid Complex at Symbiotica.com Glennon and get 20% off plus free shipping. That's Symbiotica.com Glennon for 20% off Symbiotica's new ShilAjit Liquid Complex Owning a small business means wearing all the hats all the time, including recruiter. That's why I rely on LinkedIn jobs. It works as hard as I do. I've used LinkedIn to find some of the best people on my team. It's easy to post a job, share it with my network and get a steady flow of qualified candidates all in one place. I especially love the new feature that helps write job descriptions. Huge time saver. And when you post on LinkedIn, you're not just getting resumes, you're getting insightful candidates. Based on LinkedIn's data, 72% of small businesses say LinkedIn helped them find high quality talented. And I totally get why you can even Boost your post for more visibility or add a hiringframe to your profile pic, which actually helps you get twice as many qualified applicants. More than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring because it works. Post your job for free@LinkedIn.com hardthings that's LinkedIn.com hardthings to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. What is definition wise? What do you all feel like is a criticism? Because I have, like, an issue with the whole idea of criticism, even though I got a lot of it as an athlete for so many years. But when we were talking about this, we got into the conversation of, like, is it even necessary? Why are we so concerned with criticizing other people? Are we supposed to be doing that?
- [22:20]
Abby Wambach
Well, let's go back then to a sister situation and talk it through, because that was a situation that was necessary. They're parenting. There's these two kids in their backyard. They're seeing this dynamic, and they're like, these kids need help with this dynamic, right? So they go to John. John goes to you. Then what happens next?
- [22:42]
Amanda Doyle
Then I immediately write to both of them and thank them for giving us the feedback and to tell them what we've already done, which was to talk to Bobby about it. And two separate conversations where we explained that his impact was not consistent with his intent and what all of that meant, and then actual things that he could say and do differently. And then I asked them if we could come over to their house. And our family came over and met with their family, and we talked openly about it. Bobby apologized to Charlie for the way that he acted, and then we just talked about strategies. Like I said, this isn't going to be changed overnight. This is a habit, and I don't expect it to. And so let's think of, like, some things that, if you're comfortable, you can say to Bobby when he starts to do it. And then Bobby can know that if you're over at this house and you start to act that way, you will be asked to leave. Because I'm asking those parents to ask you to leave when you do that. And if you're at our house, you.
- [23:55]
Abby Wambach
Can expect you will also be asked to leave.
- [23:58]
Amanda Doyle
You will also be asked to leave.
- [24:00]
Glennon Doyle
How did Bobby receive all of this?
- [24:02]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [24:02]
Glennon Doyle
Because I think that the. The way you approach criticism, there's two parts. There's the telling and then the receiving. And, like, both are so crucial to having it be successful.
- [24:11]
Amanda Doyle
You're right, because I could have been defensive, and I could have been like, oh, they're so sensitive. What the hell? Like, kids are kids, you know? But I think truly that criticism has. It's a weird word. So I think it's about more like whether you choose to invest in something or whether you don't. Because super easily in my head when I heard that, I was like, these people could have chosen not to trust us and not to invest in us. They could have told their kid not to hang out with our kid. They really could have. It would have been awkward because it's a small town, but 100% could have done it. And I think if you are choosing to invest in something, the way that that feedback works the best is when the person who receives it knows that the person giving it has the person's best interests in mind and is invested in that person. So I. When I got that, I knew, okay, their investment in us and these boys relationship is actually a huge best interest of me and my son. Because if this kid is feeling like this, there's probably a lot of kids who my son is friends with.
- [25:27]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [25:28]
Amanda Doyle
Who he doesn't want to make feel this way.
- [25:30]
Abby Wambach
Right.
- [25:31]
Amanda Doyle
And I don't want him to wake up in five years and have no friends because we have failed to coach him out of something that isn't working for him and his friendships.
- [25:43]
Glennon Doyle
What an incredible opportunity for. For somebody to learn like this, you know?
- [25:48]
Abby Wambach
I do want to say one thing, though, for all the people who are listening who have not had this evolved of experiences with other families. I'm going to tell you a very quick story, and I'm going to say it quickly, and it will not go further than this podcast, okay? When one of my children was younger, that child was a sensitive little being. Okay? And there was a kid at this child's school who was being mean to the kid. So let's say I am. I am the parent, the other parent in your scenario. I was Charlie's parent.
- [26:24]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [26:24]
Amanda Doyle
Oh, okay.
- [26:25]
Abby Wambach
Okay, okay. Right.
- [26:26]
Glennon Doyle
No, Glennon was Charlie's parent.
- [26:28]
Abby Wambach
There was a kid that was being awful to my kid, okay. And it just kind of got reported to me in a few different ways, and then it continued, and I was less evolved than I am now.
- [26:42]
Amanda Doyle
Okay.
- [26:42]
Abby Wambach
Because I want everyone to know I was a teacher. I understand that all kids are good inside. Okay. I understand this. But something happens to me when it's my kid that I lose all of my intelligence.
- [26:58]
Glennon Doyle
Yep.
- [26:59]
Abby Wambach
Okay. I just lose it. I have no sense in me. Okay.
- [27:04]
Glennon Doyle
What happened, honey?
- [27:05]
Amanda Doyle
Well, your brain's wiring.
- [27:07]
Abby Wambach
Yes. My kid is not safe. Like, it's right. I did let myself marinate, okay. In all the negative ways that no one would say is healthy. You know, all the horrible things that. This family's awful. This family's awful. I did the opposite of what Charlie's mom did. Okay? And then I did march my child over to these people's home. Knocked on the door, the mother answered. And I'm just gonna tell you that the conversation got so heated that this woman had to kick me off her front porch. Like, she had to kick me off her effing property with my sensitive son, who I was trying to save from meanness and bullying, walked behind his mother so that we could mean bully another mother and a child. And I still. I've never told. I mean, besides Abby. I don't think anybody knows that story.
- [28:13]
Glennon Doyle
Chase does. Yeah, Chase knows that story.
- [28:16]
Amanda Doyle
This is why he hasn't told you anything.
- [28:18]
Abby Wambach
So, anyway, I just want to give a shout out to things that happened when we were less evolved. And also a shout out to that feeling of like, I know all the things, but I also. That, like, I want to throw down. Want to throw down.
- [28:34]
Glennon Doyle
Mama bear comes out.
- [28:35]
Amanda Doyle
But that's a difference. Like, that, I think is important because what you just described, you weren't looking to invest in that. If we take the positive what is positive and helpful feedback quiz that I just said about best interest in. You have the person's best interests in mind, and you're investing in it, and you bringing the thing to them is a form of investing in either that person, a project that you're doing, the relationship. Neither of those things were true.
- [29:06]
Abby Wambach
No.
- [29:06]
Amanda Doyle
You didn't give one shit about that family, and you had no interest in investing. What you were looking for was justice and accountability.
- [29:13]
Abby Wambach
Justice and accountability. Fists of fury. I wanted them to say, we are wrong. You are right. We will have a town square in which we will.
- [29:24]
Amanda Doyle
A truth and justice reconciliation.
- [29:26]
Abby Wambach
That's right. I mean, truly, that was. Must have been my end goal. It was accountability, justice and punishment.
- [29:34]
Amanda Doyle
Right. Which is not the same as feedback. Feedback is very different. And so I think that's actually a good point. If you're looking for that, that's awesome in some circumstances, go get it. But that is not what this is. So I think it's helpful to ask yourself, like, if I'm looking to give someone feedback, are those two things true? And if not, maybe don't give it to them. Because I think people, when they receive it, they know whether those two things are true.
- [30:05]
Abby Wambach
That's right.
- [30:05]
Amanda Doyle
And if they've done work on themselves enough to A, not be totally shocked or B, even if they are shocked, look at as an opportunity and a trust in them that they're going to handle it right. Then I think it's helpful.
- [30:20]
Glennon Doyle
So this is like criticism in the form of parenting. And I know that it gets a little bit more dicey and interesting when we talk about relationships.
- [30:31]
Abby Wambach
Like partnerships.
- [30:33]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. Because I think that I know for me criticism in business, like I can take criticism when it, when it feels professional all day long. Yes. Okay, cool. But when it comes to like my most important relationships, I go into a wicked like shame spiral death trap. I don't know what the fuck that's about, but like, that's the one thing that I've done the most work on in our marriage.
- [31:02]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [31:03]
Glennon Doyle
What is the difference between like the parenting criticisms?
- [31:07]
Abby Wambach
Community, because sister's talking about community criticism.
- [31:10]
Glennon Doyle
Community criticisms versus relationship.
- [31:12]
Amanda Doyle
It's like anything if you have a neighbor and you need to work something out with your neighbor. If there's a teacher at school where you actually need to work something out, whatever it is in your life other than your most intimate relationships, I think that best interest and investment situation works. And. But yeah. So criticism and relationships, the way that they talk about it. First of all, the got the Gottman research that where this researching couple can see a married relationship and observe it for just a few minutes. And with a 90% accuracy rate, they can predict whether the the couple will remain married or be divorced. So amazing. They have these four categories that are called the four horsemen that if they observe any of these four things, that's what predicts it. And one of them is criticism. And the way that they talk about criticism is that criticism goes to the heart of someone's character. So it isn't that I never call you out on things, it's that when I do, I come to it with like, this is what your behavior means about you as a person, as your character. Whereas if you just have a complaint, that's totally different. And a complaint is an emotional bid. I have an emotional ask of you through this complaint. I would like you to be home early because I really want us to be able to have dinner together. I want more time with you. I am craving the connection. Whereas criticism is you only think of yourself. You never, you never prioritize our family. You're all about you. Therefore you're always late.
- [32:52]
Abby Wambach
So it really has to do with similar to the community. One I'd like to give an example of like what you're saying is if we have a criticism, which maybe we'd call more of a carefrontation.
- [33:05]
Amanda Doyle
Yes.
- [33:05]
Abby Wambach
With a community member. Right. Criticism feels like you're doing something that is wrong when really all of that's subjective. A carefrontation is like we together are having this issue that, like, I feel like we both want to work out. It could be you, it could be me, it could be the, the. The connection between us. But there's like this thing that I bet we both would want to figure out, and then it's assuming goodness. Okay. I think that, that, like, when I think about the situation with that I just told you about, there was no assumed goodness. I was like, they are bad. They are bad. And that was because of my thinking over time. You know, when you perseverate on something, you perseverate on something. And then. So for me, it's not just about saying the thing. Like you go to the teacher that you're having a problem with and you're like, I know that you are working your ass off and that you are trying to meet the needs of all of these kids. And my kid just has this thing and I. You actually have to believe it a bit.
- [34:08]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [34:09]
Abby Wambach
Because if you say it and they say the wrong thing and you actually are believing bad intentions, you switch over like that.
- [34:16]
Amanda Doyle
Well, it's what you said in Untamed about the cup of coffee. Like, when you get bumped, whatever's inside spill out. And so when you're dealing with someone and it's sensitive as a situation, as a carefrontation, you're going to get bumped. So you got to be careful of what you have in your cup.
- [34:35]
Abby Wambach
Exactly. And if what you have in your cup is actual disdain and contempt, even if you're trying to say the right things, it's going to come out. So all I'm flagging is, for me, prior to the carefrontation, there actually has to be some, like, thinking about the other person's perspective, because that's not completely always natural to me. It actually has to be intentionally done to bring. Be able to bring compassion to the situation.
- [35:06]
Amanda Doyle
And that's why I think, you know, to be totally realistic, this actual magic, it's not forcing every situation into this magic formula. It's saying if you don't have this magic formula of actually believing in, it's in the other person's best interest, believing that the other person is good, wanting to invest in it, your situation, getting better together, then that's awesome. If you don't have that, it's just something else. In that case, you're doing a different thing. You're going to try to procure change. You're gonna go to the principal instead of the teacher because you have a situation. You're going to go to the parent and say there's new boundaries now. My child can only play with your child if this other person isn't present. You're doing a different thing. I feel like part of our problem is that we're not actually honest about our intentions and we bring something to someone and they don't handle it the way we think they should handle it precisely because the ingredients of the formula weren't there. So of course they're not going to handle it.
- [36:11]
Glennon Doyle
That's right.
- [36:13]
Abby Wambach
Foreign.
- [36:20]
Amanda Doyle
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- [37:19]
Abby Wambach
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- [38:23]
Amanda Doyle
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- [39:30]
Abby Wambach
So what we're doing right now is we're saying there are situations that are ripe for a carefrontation.
- [39:39]
Amanda Doyle
Yes.
- [39:39]
Abby Wambach
Okay. And those situations are situations in which you have a problem with another human being, whatever that problem is. You have gotten to a place where you assume that that other person is good and doing their best, and yet this problem persists. And you have decided that you trust yourself and this other person in the scenario enough and you want something in the future.
- [40:07]
Glennon Doyle
There's a future. That's right.
- [40:08]
Abby Wambach
You want something.
- [40:10]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah. You're invested.
- [40:12]
Abby Wambach
You're willing to invest the time, energy, ego displacement, all of the things that this carefrontation requires.
- [40:20]
Amanda Doyle
And you think the carefrontation is in the best interest of the other person too?
- [40:23]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [40:24]
Abby Wambach
Ah, okay. Okay.
- [40:25]
Amanda Doyle
It isn't just getting something for yourself in the. In those three things I think are. That is a recipe for really good exchanges.
- [40:36]
Abby Wambach
Okay.
- [40:37]
Amanda Doyle
If you're on the receiving end of that, expect yourself to be feel totally icky and shitty. Expect yourself to need a minute to even entertain that this might be true, because your brain is not predisposed to receiving this kind of information. And then ask yourself these kinds of questions like what would happen if this person hadn't brought this to me? And possibly think of it as how would it have been easier for this person to not bring this hard thing to me? And what would that have meant for me? Because I think often like we miss what a gift that is because the person doesn't have to do that they could handle it all on their own. And when they're handling it all on their own, guess what? It's not usually working out in your best interests.
- [41:37]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [41:37]
Amanda Doyle
When they invite you into that process, it's a trust, it is a building on the relationship. And so I think if you can kind of consider that this person hasn't brought me a problem, this person has invited me into a better outcome for myself and my people.
- [41:58]
Glennon Doyle
And the way the person brings a criticism or feedback, I think that that will show what their intentions are. Right. If somebody comes in like you did, Glennon, that person knows immediately, oh, there's no intention for possible future relationship here. So that's going to be dealt with a different and it's going to feel different, you're going to receive it different. And so I bet that this dad who showed up, up with John, and I bet you he was kind and honest and truthful in a way full of contempt. Yeah. And I think that the way you deliver hard criticisms can show what your future.
- [42:36]
Abby Wambach
So let's talk about that, because I agree, like when you were talking about that, it made me think of Dr. Yabba Blay and how she told me once that if she's offering feedback, that should be such a freaking gift because she only offers feedback to people that she cares about and that she trusts to take it in. Because otherwise why would you waste your.
- [43:05]
Amanda Doyle
Time unless you're looking for justice and accountability, which is a totally different thing.
- [43:09]
Abby Wambach
Right, Right.
- [43:10]
Amanda Doyle
But if you are actually bringing something where you're opening yourself up, up like that and you're saying this hurt me, then that is a risk that that deliverer is making.
- [43:23]
Abby Wambach
Yes, they're making. They're placing a trust in you, making themselves vulnerable. Okay, so we have the prerequisites for carefrontation. If we don't have those things, then we're not going into the carefrontation. But there's, there's not just the prerequisites, but there's the language, the script, what you actually say in a confrontation. So can we just talk about that for a minute? Like what kinds of things make it easier for the other person to feel the vulnerability instead of the accusation?
- [44:02]
Amanda Doyle
Well, there's whole separate kind of scripts. If this is like a business situation, there's a tremendous data that even using just this sentence, when you're delivering business feedback, saying, I am giving you this feedback because I have very high expectations and I know you can reach them just that in a business setting, the. The data shows that your feedback is received like, exponentially better than if it's given in another way. And when you.
- [44:36]
Abby Wambach
Because that's saying you're good, you're good at your job. The reason I'm coming to you is because you're good at this, not because you're bad at this. Right. That's the difference in criticism. It's like, I know that you are so good that this thing feels out of character instead of, this is part of your character.
- [44:52]
Amanda Doyle
Which, by the way, goes exactly to the relationship issue. If those people had come to me and said, your child is me, that would have been very, very different than, we have an issue in which.
- [45:09]
Abby Wambach
We.
- [45:10]
Amanda Doyle
Love these boys, friendship, and Bobby is being mean in this way, and how can we work on it? So it's exactly the same thing. It's exactly the same thing in relationships. Everything works out the same way. If I could easily not bring my concerns about my relationship to my partner, and that would be less conflict. But when I bring my issues to my partner, it's because I. I am invested in a better outcome. I want better for us. I believe that they're good, and I believe that they can do better.
- [45:54]
Abby Wambach
Right.
- [45:55]
Amanda Doyle
And that we deserve better.
- [45:56]
Abby Wambach
So you start with, if you are actually assuming good intention, the other person's good, and that the thing you're bringing to them is out of character and not matched with their character. That's what you're going to start with. You're going to start with some personal version of what you said about work.
- [46:11]
Amanda Doyle
Right?
- [46:12]
Abby Wambach
Right.
- [46:13]
Amanda Doyle
You're going to be talking about the actual behavior, about how you feel when the actual behavior happens because of what you want. You're gonna. You are going to phrase it as an emotional bid. This. I want a deeper relationship with you. I want this time with you because I love you. And so let's deal with this behavior.
- [46:42]
Abby Wambach
Yes. Instead of, you're selfish and you don't love this family, and that's why you're never spending time with me.
- [46:48]
Amanda Doyle
Right. And I think that everything goes back to this idea that that family could have not brought that thing to us and written Bobby off, and our relationship would have been over. Same thing with supervisors who just are like, ugh, it's not worth it. I'm not investing in that person. And we'll just, like, weed them out in a couple years. And same with the relationships. Intimate relationships don't die because of conflict. Actually, conflict has nothing to do with predicting whether relationships will last. You can be super high conflict and last super low conflict, and last. They die because of A lack of connection. And so the bringing the feedback to someone is a desire to connect on something to make it better, whether you're in a relationship, whether you're in a community, whether you're in a business situation.
- [47:48]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, I think that this is important for me because I'm kind of one of those people that I've brought more criticism and feedback to this marriage, more than I've ever brought to any relationship in my life. And I think what I got wrong before is, like, I just wanted people to be themselves, and through being themselves and it not matching with what my needs were and me not voicing those needs, and that's when the connection ended up falling apart, and I wouldn't be able to build a relationship. I actually believe this. Most people don't like conflict. You and you, sister. You guys are conflict pro.
- [48:27]
Abby Wambach
Yes, I feel like conflict is connection.
- [48:29]
Glennon Doyle
But I do think that there's a way to get into the heart of what criticism really is, because at the end of the day, I struggle with this. Criticism feels like such a big word. Conflict feels like such a big word. It makes. I'm like. I feel. I'm sweating right now, just, like, talking about it. And, like, my point is, is, like, who. And I think this is important in relationships. Who made the person who's bringing the conflict judge and jury?
- [48:56]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, this is so interesting to me, too.
- [48:58]
Glennon Doyle
Like, why does it. That person to. To. To be right in this scenario or whatever it is?
- [49:05]
Amanda Doyle
Well, exactly. Well, that. That is precisely why the stance at which you come to it is important.
- [49:16]
Abby Wambach
Let's give an example.
- [49:17]
Glennon Doyle
Okay.
- [49:18]
Abby Wambach
Should we give an example?
- [49:19]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [49:19]
Abby Wambach
So let me just explain to you why Abby just said that, because we went on a long walk yesterday, and we were talking about criticism and relational stuff. Carefrontation in community. Got it. I really do. Like, I understand what you're saying, and all of that makes sense. The intention, the script, all of it. To me, the marital or relational romantic carefrontation is a little bit more complicated or deeper or something, because the community carefrontation feels like it's easy. It's like this behavior that's not working for us. But what we've discovered lo so many times in our romantic relationship is that a lot of the criticism we have for each other really does come down to identity and who the other person is. For example, I have a discomfort that wells up in me every time Abby's bigness manifests in a social situation. So what I mean by that is Abby is really comfortable with being, like, the center of attention.
- [50:31]
Glennon Doyle
Or louder.
- [50:32]
Abby Wambach
Louder. Or being the one who's talking the most or, like, reflecting attention to her. That makes me very uncomfortable. Okay. Why? Well, we know from all of our other pods that I must have learned at a young age that the way we stay safe is we don't draw too much attention, that it's selfish, that it's. It's, you know, what makes us unsafe. So sometimes when we're in a social situation, my criticism of Abby would be, can you please give someone else a chance to talk? Can you please just not take up so much space? Can you please just not be so loud? But actually, and ps, I did that for three years.
- [51:12]
Glennon Doyle
This is a tough time.
- [51:13]
Abby Wambach
Okay.
- [51:14]
Amanda Doyle
Like, how'd that work out for you?
- [51:16]
Glennon Doyle
Well, tough times.
- [51:17]
Abby Wambach
Not great. Not great. What I'm trying to say is, in a marriage, I actually do feel like families have a Venn diagram, and you do have to give everyone talk time and all the things. But basically what I'm saying is, I have a problem, and you're the problem. And so you have to change as opposed to saying, I have a problem. Why do I feel those things? Marriage is such a mirror in a way that I'm not sure that every community situation is where it's like, wait, I could criticize you to death for the rest of your life about being the center of things and being. Having this bigness. Or I could be like, glennon, why is it so important to you that you and Abby are, like, small in situations? What is this bringing up in me? Like, instead of being critical, I could be really curious, and then that curiosity and inward could heal me in some way. Like, does criticism, Is it an effort to not have to heal ourselves?
- [52:32]
Glennon Doyle
I think in some ways. I think in some ways it is. And I also think in other ways, what I've told you and what my dreams are for my best self. For my best and highest self. And one of my insecurities is that I talk too much. I have a need for attention. It's an insecurity of mine because I get.
- [52:51]
Amanda Doyle
Because she's been bothering you about it for three years.
- [52:56]
Abby Wambach
I've worked hard on that.
- [52:57]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. But I get my worthiness with attention, and that's been something I'm trying to actually work on. So. So she's breathing into a little bit of what I'm wanting to see as my best self. And I think this is an and both situation where you're right. This is bringing up something inside of you that you're thinking, maybe this is actually my problem. So this is where I get a little bit confused with feedback and criticism is like, who made the critic the judge?
- [53:26]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. She's like, what makes you the person who decides who gets to talk talk and who has talk time?
- [53:31]
Amanda Doyle
I think that that is a great point because I think it actually, it isn't just related to couples. I think that you've identified what is a prerequisite before you have any kind of carefrontation. I mean, what you are talking about right now reminds me exactly of what we talked about in episode 128 where we're talking about Untethered Soul with the idea of instead of saying that thing is bothering me, we ask ourselves what part of me is being bothered by this? So we really, really need to do that in any situation before we make it somebody else's problem. In that situation with Charlie and Bobby, if it had been something where, okay, Bobby was just winning at the baseball games more, and that was really upsetting to Charlie, and that was really upsetting to Charlie's parents, they would have to ask what part of themselves is being bothered by this? And that would have been ego. And that would not have been Bobby and our family's problem.
- [54:42]
Glennon Doyle
Right.
- [54:44]
Amanda Doyle
Similarly with what you're saying, you have to ask yourself what part of yourself is bothered by this. And if you determine that that's something that you need to work on internally and not bring to your partner, or if it's something that you are struggling with so much that you have to present in a way that just says, listen, I know I have an issue with this. I am still trying to work out what part of it is mine to process through and what part of it might be something that we need to work on together and what part of it might be your issue. But I just want to say, I know you can sense my anxiety around this. I feel it too. And I just want to call that out because I want to share what I'm going through with you. I don't want you to receive my anxiety as a criticism of you.
- [55:34]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, that's good.
- [55:36]
Glennon Doyle
Because I think in the end, when we talked about this on our walk, like, I think in the end as we grow older, like I can see myself as an 80 year old woman and, and still talking and like enjoying and inserting as much like energy and fun life as I can and Glennon being 80 also and looking over at me and just kind of like shrugging her shoulders going, that's who she is, that's who she's always been, you know.
- [56:06]
Abby Wambach
That'S what we want to get to. That's what, like.
- [56:09]
Amanda Doyle
Exactly. And we should talk to Melody Beatty about this when we have a conversation with her. It could also be a codependency issue. The fact that you are uncomfortable with the way Abby's being and the fact that you believe that Abby is a reflection of you.
- [56:22]
Abby Wambach
Oh, totally.
- [56:23]
Amanda Doyle
You need to change that. As opposed to being like, that's my wife. You might love it about her. You might think it's annoying. I think it's a little bit annoying. But that's a different person than me.
- [56:34]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [56:34]
Abby Wambach
And by the way, that's a different person than me. And by the way, what I also want to say is it's unbelievable. And maybe this will be relatable to anyone on the pod squad, because that is what her doing. That is what makes our. Our family beautiful and fun.
- [56:51]
Amanda Doyle
Yes.
- [56:51]
Abby Wambach
It's like, none of my kids would want it to change. Craig wouldn't want it to change. It's the beauty of our family. Right. If it were up to me, what, Abby and I would just sit silently waiting for someone else to talk all the time.
- [57:03]
Amanda Doyle
You're literally a killjoy.
- [57:05]
Abby Wambach
I would kill a literal killjoy. I will kill it.
- [57:08]
Amanda Doyle
I will edit it out to a palatable level.
- [57:12]
Abby Wambach
Because this beautiful thing that's like, wait. It's just that what we come back to again and again, that the thing that we are attracted to, that we fall in love with each other about, that's what I wanted. That beautiful bigness and exuberance and, like, light and all of that. I chose it because I needed it, and I need it for myself. It's like what Dr. Becky said. Instead of saying, why are you acting like that? Instead of me trying to smush it in Abby? What I should be saying is, how do I grow this in me in real life? I mean, everyone's like, please, God, how would you talk more? But I'm talking about in real life, not on the podcast.
- [57:52]
Glennon Doyle
As long as I'm not stifling the kids in any way. That was an important criticism that you brought. Early on to our marriage, I was such a talker, and I'm better now, but I would, like, interrupt our children.
- [58:03]
Abby Wambach
Nobody talked for two years. Nobody else talked for two years.
- [58:06]
Glennon Doyle
I would interrupt them, and she eventually had to sit me down and say, listen, like, our dinner time is so important for our kids to tell us about themselves and their lives. So there's also really important beauty that can come out of that. And I think that the way that you approach it, I have some trauma around abandonment. And so any criticism, no matter what it is, she has to come to me with. Okay, I don't want to leave you. I want to spend the rest of my life with you. And I need to talk to you.
- [58:36]
Amanda Doyle
About this really hard thing which is a perfect segue into our attachment episodes that we're going to be doing, because all of that is about attachment styles. And so criticism fits perfectly in that. I. I can't wait to continue the discussion there because what we need and demand and the way we react to being called out or called in has everything to do with attachment.
- [59:03]
Glennon Doyle
So.
- [59:04]
Amanda Doyle
So hold that thought, Abby. We'll get there.
- [59:06]
Abby Wambach
We'll get there.
- [59:07]
Glennon Doyle
That makes sense.
- [59:08]
Abby Wambach
Good job. Okay, so do we want to hear from our pod squatter of the Week?
- [59:13]
Amanda Doyle
I sure do.
- [59:14]
Abby Wambach
We haven't had them for a while and I miss them.
- [59:16]
Glennon Doyle
I miss the pod squad.
- [59:18]
Amanda Doyle
Hi, my name is Susan, and as.
- [59:20]
Abby Wambach
I finished the podcast, your daughter's song started playing.
- [59:25]
Amanda Doyle
And I was looking in the mirror, getting ready for bed, putting my breathing strip on my nose to help me breathe better while I sleep, smiling at.
- [59:34]
Abby Wambach
That, and I just began moving.
- [59:38]
Amanda Doyle
I was once a dancer and I just began moving with my robe and.
- [59:42]
Abby Wambach
Looking at myself in the mirror with pride instead of criticism and appreciation instead of shame.
- [59:53]
Amanda Doyle
So I just had a beautiful moment.
- [59:55]
Glennon Doyle
Of truly seeing myself for the beautiful.
- [59:59]
Amanda Doyle
Self that I am and no one there that I needed to please or get appreciated by.
- [60:10]
Abby Wambach
I was just there to appreciate my true self.
- [60:12]
Amanda Doyle
So thank you.
- [60:18]
Abby Wambach
Let's just end with that. Let's just all hope for one moment of pride instead of criticism and appreciation instead of shame. Thank you, Susan. Pod Squad, we love you. We've got no criticism for you. We think you're effing perfect. See you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Shot, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.