Glennon Doyle (4:26)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (4:27)

Not from just this thing. All the things this person is a. Is a person who has figured out how to heal herself, and in doing so, because she's sharing, is gonna help all of us. So, Chanel, I don't want you to feel any pressure. I just. You've got 47 minutes to heal us. Do you think you can do that?

Chanel Miller (4:46)

Yeah, it's easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Glennon Doyle (4:49)

Okay.

Chanel Miller (4:49)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (4:50)

Chanel Miller is a writer and artist who received her BA in literature from the University of California, Santa Barbara. Her critically acclaimed memoir, Know My Name, My Top five books of all Time. Everyone who's listening to this podcast must buy and read this book.

Glennon Doyle (5:06)

Absolutely.

Abby Wambach (5:07)

Was a New York Times bestseller, a New York Times Book Review notable book, and a National Book Critics Circle Award winner, as well as a best book of 2019 in time, the Washington Post, the Chicago Tribune, NPR, and People, among others. She's a 2019 Time Next 100 honoree and a 2016 Glamour Woman of the Year honoree under her pseudonym, Emily Doe. Chanel, thank you for doing this.

Chanel Miller (5:37)

Are you kidding me? Thanks so much for having me. It's so nice to be looking at both of you.

Glennon Doyle (5:42)

Let me tell you, when Glennon was reading your book, there aren't many times when Glennon comes into wherever I am and is like, can I read this to you, honey? Please? Can I read this passage to you? And so I downloaded it, and I listened to it because I was training for a marathon then, and I feel like I have your voice in my ears, in my brain, in my heart. So thank you for doing that. And also, you are a true artist.

Abby Wambach (6:14)

I know. And I'm so excited to talk about your art because the last time we had a conversation, Chanel, we talked about writing and healing. And so I want to talk about art and healing this time around. When you were writing Know My Name, your therapist told you to focus on pursuing pleasure as part of your healing. So first of all, that's awesome. I love that so much because it feels like we don't focus on that with healing a lot, that we keep going back, like we dig backwards towards the trauma. And we were recently doing an interview with Esther Perel where she talked about, you know, sometimes it's not returning to the trauma over and over again, but adding joy and connectedness with others that actually heals us. So tell us about that time when your therapist, she asked you to start going to an art class, right?

Chanel Miller (7:07)

Yeah, well, she. She literally suggested I go to one of those gymnasiums full of trampolines. And I was like, oh, you really need me to, like, loosen up if you want me bouncing off the walls. So maybe I'll do a dialed down version of that. And instead, I signed up for a narrative illustration class in San Francisco right by the harbor, which is basically comic making. And so after writing, I would take my little Prius over there at night and make comics in this class of seven people. And we would just translate what happened in our days into these daily drawings. And that's when I started noticing things that were happening in my present life outside of the story that I was telling at my desk. And that's what taught me to pay attention to the fact that life was still moving forward. And one of the comics I made, you know, we were fostering senior dogs at the time, and since we were in San Francisco, we lived on a really slanted hill, and a lot of our senior dogs couldn't control their bladders. And so every night they would pee on one side of the house, and I'd wake up and it had trickled under the table legs, like through our router under the couch. And every morning before writing, I'd have to move all the furniture, clean the floors. But then I would. I would do that first. Then I'd sit down to write, and then I'd go, and I'd get lost in my court world and dark world. And then I'd go to this comic book class and sit down and be like, what comes to mind first? What comes to mind is that my dog peed all over my floor this morning, and that cannot be lost. And I'd spend the evening, you know, coloring the pee in with highlighter and that. That's me putting myself back inside my day, right? And now that little urine, that trickle of urine, bringing that to the front of my mind is what's going to keep me moving. And that's. It doesn't seem like it's pleasure. That seems like a nuisance, right? But that's the stuff that's grounding me while I'm. I'm getting, you know, swept away in these really big themes like sexual violence. It's like, no, bring it back to yourself.

Abby Wambach (9:38)

So that's what you're saying is like, all these things were happening. You were swept up because what you were spending your day was writing Know My Name, which was about trauma. So going to that art class, was that your way of insisting that you were still there?

Chanel Miller (9:56)

Insisting that I'm still there and that things are changing? Because when you're in your past, you feel like you are stuck and you have to look at the small changes. And even, like, it's helpful to go on a walk. If you walk the same loop of your neighborhood every day, I would challenge you to look for the certain factors that are different each time you walk. You have to know that life is in motion and that it's impossible to get stuck even if you feel that you are.

Glennon Doyle (10:32)

Wow.

Abby Wambach (10:33)

It's impossible to get stuck even if you feel that you are. And so that art does for you, that it convinces you that change is still happening, right? That the world is still spinning. What else does it do for you?

Chanel Miller (10:48)

Well, yeah, so art is what forces me to pay attention, right, to these smaller changes. Art also helps me because when I create these creatures or people, I create really whimsical, odd landscapes and beings. And I think about how if I am to put my pencil down and mute myself and not do anything at all, if I am to give up on myself, I would also be giving up on all of them. And I will never do that to them. I will always ensure that they have a place to play and that they're let out, that they're not cooped up inside of me eternally. And so protecting them, the things that I make, is non negotiable. And that helps me respect myself and my work.

Glennon Doyle (11:48)

Wow. Oh, my gosh. To have an interior world. I mean, I think the beautiful metaphor here is like, all of us have an interior world. Some of us don't know how to draw. Some of us don't know how to even create beings. Or this whimsical world you talk of. But we do have an internalized space that if we don't get out of ourselves, then we are only actually living in our past. Like, we are not able to create a day or create something that could save us or heal us. That is so fucking amazing.

Abby Wambach (12:23)

What do you feel like your art does for other people? Because there, it's just so interesting. It feels to me like you're the kind of artist who would create no matter what, even if no one else saw it. Right.

Chanel Miller (12:36)

Thank you.

Abby Wambach (12:37)

That feels very clear to me. And you also say that there's this byproduct of your art, of any of all art, which is that art is what creates empathy. That I think you said art requires imagination, and imagination is the key ingredient to empathy. Can you talk to us about that?

Chanel Miller (12:57)

Yeah. I'll say this. When I wrote my victim impact statement that I read in court, it was meant to be for about 30 people in a tiny courtroom in Palo Alto. That's it. And then when it was released, it went out, and millions of people picked it up and changed the course of my life. And after that, I realized for a long time, I had asked myself, does it matter what I say or what I make or what I do? And after the statement went out, I learned I had to put that question, does it matter? To rest? Because the answer is always yes. And it's yes to a degree that is so much bigger than I'm capable of comprehending. And still today, I don't think we will ever, ever fully realize what we mean to other people. And so we're not allowed to knock ourselves fully or declare our significance or insignificance. Because all the time, like, I still get in my head, but then I'll be walking through a parking lot in Target, this happened to me. And a woman will come up to me and say that she's proud of me or that I changed her trajectory. Like, I just learned that it's what we do and the way we move people is not for us to define or fully know, but that it's just, like, vast and incredible. All I can trust is continuing to make this work and put it out there and not worry about so much about where it lands. Because I trust, especially by now, that it's being received somewhere.

Abby Wambach (14:57)

It sure is.

Amanda Doyle (15:07)

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Glennon Doyle (17:27)

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Chanel Miller (18:13)

Hi honey.

Glennon Doyle (18:14)

Hi Hattie. And when I want privacy, I just flip the manual cover to turn off the camera and mic. Wherever the holidays take you, Ring. Make sure you're always home for the holidays. So head to Ring.com to find the latest deals on Ring video doorbells, cams and alarm kits. Ring makes the perfect gift for everyone on your list. It's the best. Go get it folks.

Abby Wambach (18:46)

You said a while back that one of the scariest parts of your post life after the assault, that now you were going to be given this identity, that this is what people were going to talk about. Do you feel that the world has seen who you are in the way that you want them to, or do you still feel too tied to what happened to you instead of who you are?

Chanel Miller (19:13)

I think yeah, with identity, you think it's going to be a bad thing that you're tied to. And I realized over time there were so many good qualities that I built inside the realm of the assault that I was proud to be tied to. And so I wanted to say, that's me. And I felt so proud that I had finally come to a place in my life where it wasn't like, please nobody find out that my name belongs in that news article. It's like, no, that's me. Like I did that and I'm still here. And I feel so honored that I've been able to claim that identity. But yes, I do still struggle with fully fleshing myself out. I was gonna ask you all because I'm like on the cusp of 30 and I know that's so like heck of youthful, but I am still so nervous. I don't know why. I think my 20s were so fragmented. I was forced to grow at a really exponential rate. Like everything felt so raw and I'm. And then when you're 30, it seems like you just have to make even bigger decisions than you did before that have even longer term implications. So I'm wondering where you all were at at 29. Like, what ideas you had about your life, what you got wrong, misconceptions. Because thus far I've pretty much had been figuring it out. Right now I'm like on this thing, I really don't know. I kind of came here to ask you.

Glennon Doyle (21:05)

That's so funny. For me, I think that the beginning of a new decade always forces us to kind of analyze and evaluate how the Previous decade went. And also like, oh, shit, I've got a whole nother decade ahead of me, hopefully.

Chanel Miller (21:21)

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle (21:21)

And so it's daunting to go from one to the next. I can tell you that I was doing kind of abnormal things at 29, going into my 30s.

Abby Wambach (21:32)

She was, like, winning gold medals, playing soccer.

Chanel Miller (21:34)

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle (21:35)

But also, what people saw on the outside was not what I was going through on the inside, because I think that I had this notion that I was supposed to have it more figured out than I did. I was pretending to have it more figured out than I did. And that caused a lot of suffering inside. And so I was drinking way too much. I developed alcoholism. Probably had it through my whole life, if I were to be truly honest. And so I didn't know anything. I thought I was building this life. I thought that I was doing it correct. And then When I hit 35, I surrendered and got sober and realized, actually, I don't know shit.

Abby Wambach (22:19)

And we still don't.

Glennon Doyle (22:20)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (22:21)

So I have these days. Last week, I. Thursday was my best day because my. Thursday was. Think about Chanel Day.

Chanel Miller (22:28)

Wow.

Abby Wambach (22:29)

So I. Because I. This is such an exciting, different thing for me, like, interviewing people. And I find it such a ridiculous honor. And so I just get. Sometimes when I'm really, really just excited or honored about someone coming, I just have a full day where I'm like, just think about this person, you know, read them, think about. I went for a walk on my beach here. I went for a Chanel thinking walk. Okay.

Glennon Doyle (22:54)

Literally.

Abby Wambach (22:55)

And here's what happened during my little walk. Okay? There was this little girl, and she was digging into the sand, and I. I got a little close so I could see, and she wrote, melody is here. Okay? Melody is here. I think she meant Melody was here. Like, but it was so beautiful, Melody. And I thought, oh, there's this little girl, and she is. She needs to see herself. Like, she needs to. I was here. Like, melody is here, right? And that reminded me so much of you. Just, like, the. The inner stuff, putting it on the outside and how beautiful it is. And then a couple feet later, there was this woman, and she was carrying around a plastic bag. And I've seen her many times, and she just walks this little thing and picks up trash. So. Because that reminded me of you, I stopped her. I said, what are you doing? And she said, well, this is just like my little block. I just keep my block beautiful. And it reminded me of you. Because, you know, you always say, when I get overwhelmed, I just remember my little Corner. What can I do to make my little corner of the world beautiful? And then Chanel, five feet later, I got stung by a fucking bee. Do you remember when I called? I was having this beautiful, like, Chanel moment, spiritual Chanel metaphor. And then I got stung by a fucking bee. And I couldn't. I was limping. I was so dramatic. And that's all I can tell you, Chanel, about life is like, say I am here in one way or another. Like, reveal yourself, clean up your little block and know you're always going to get stung by a fucking bee anyway.

Chanel Miller (24:53)

That's so funny.

Glennon Doyle (24:54)

What you said was kind of really interesting to me that, that the melody wrote melody is here. And oftentimes we are so focused, especially as we get older, to have some sort of legacy. And so when we get older, we write or we think Abby was here. And the idea of having a child's mind about our lives is, I think, so important that we are here now, in this moment. So Abby is here, Chanel is here, Glenn is here.

Abby Wambach (25:28)

I feel like, how are you saying, she's here now? How are you that little girl now? How are you each day saying, chanel is here?

Chanel Miller (25:36)

Okay, well, I wish I had a beach, but I don't. Manhattan. That's something that I'm still figuring out. And okay, well, here is a loaded word. Because I take pride in. In being here in any way. Like even showing up to court, one of the best things I did for myself was lower my standard to. Of success to presence. Like, presence was success. And it didn't matter what it looked like. It didn't matter if I flubbed up my words, which I did a million times. What mattered is that when each time I was summoned, I drove to the courtroom, I had a semi wrinkled sweater on, and I would go in and speak the truest thing I knew. And I kept doing that. And I did it imperfectly, but I never went away. And I realized so much of what court was, was. It wasn't even about getting it right. It was so much more about endurance. And I realized that so many of the oppressive forces in the world are just waiting for us to give up. And if I just keep showing up, even when I have a hoarse voice, like, I'm still always going to be here and you can't make me feel shame in any form that I appear. So that should be pretty intimidating because I just feel deeply comfortable with myself in all the years that I am. I will always just keep showing up as I am, as I figure it Out. Like I said, I'm 29. I have no flipping idea what the next decade holds. I feel like I just figured out the last one kind of, but. But that's all right. And I think it's cool that now I have this timestamp in 10 years, I can listen to this and think like, wow, I didn't know so much.

Glennon Doyle (27:59)

Yeah, wow.

Abby Wambach (28:01)

I mean, just as long as there's no supposed to. I think the supposed tos of the decades are what? Screw us, right? You're like, oh, I'm in my 30s. Here's what's supposed to happen in my 30s. I think when we make decisions from supposed to, that's when we get all screwed up because we force it, you know? So when you talk about hereness being enough, presence being enough, it makes me think of your mural. So to those of you who are new to Chanel, Chanel had one of her art pieces, which, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's a 75 foot mural titled I Was, I Am. I will be in the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco, where Chanel's mother used to take her when she was little. And I love it so much because it's such a beautiful description or illustration of the healing process. And I love so much how you talk about the healing process as something that is just absolutely cyclical and always happening. Can you tell us about those three characters and kind of take it, take us through them so people listening can get the gist of what you were trying to teach us with that?

Chanel Miller (29:16)

Yeah, so there's a few characters. There's I was, I am, I will be. And the character begins reclined with these tears coming out and slowly sits centered and then kneels and gets up and walks away. That's what the gallery looks like. And the characters are very simple. And I want to tell you that when I was asked to fill this wall, I went off and did really intricate drawings to fill the wall. Because I thought this is my one and only chance to show you that I'm an artist. Right. Flesh out my identity. And so I did, like, elaborate plants and people and character design. And they said, well, look, it's a really big wall. It's covered in glass, so you can see it from the street. So it needs to be really simple, like a billboard. And they showed me an example where this artist had done like one stroke of black with like three letters. I was like, oh, my gosh, I cannot. It's so. I don't have that yet. It's too simple to just say, yeah, this is what I did, and I'm an artist. Like, I. I felt like I needed to show you, like, look at all the things I can do. Look at my skill set. And so I want you to know that just to strip away all of those elements to get to the very simple piece that is up now took so much work and confidence and trust that this will not be my only time to exhibit my art. Right. So that's a part of the piece too, is that the simplicity of that bold black line, the fact that it's only two colors means that Chanel also trusts that in the future she will make more work.

Abby Wambach (31:19)

It makes sense.

Glennon Doyle (31:20)

It makes sense. It's the plight of all women everywhere, right? It's like, I gotta give you one shot. I gotta give you everything I've got in order to make sure I can stay here.

Chanel Miller (31:32)

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle (31:32)

But what a beautiful lesson to say, no, I have more to give, and I have to trust in that future self to be able to give more when it's asked of me.

Chanel Miller (31:44)

It'll be there, it'll be there, it'll be there.

Abby Wambach (31:48)

And in doing that, it's such an interesting thing because it was up for the whole pandemic. So everyone walking by got to see the process of healing of we are now on the ground. We are sitting in the present. We will be standing up again. And it was probably the simplicity that healed so many people of it. Right? So it's like, there's a form of art that's like, look at me. Look what I can do. And then there's this other form of art that is truly service. Because, you know, this idea we say that writers say make simple things seem complicated, but, like, really good writers make complicated things really simple, which is. That piece is so beautiful.

Glennon Doyle (32:31)

And by the way, like, Chanel is also that as a writer.

Abby Wambach (32:35)

Yeah. The best writer.

Glennon Doyle (32:36)

For the fact that you can do all these different mediums of art just is mind blowing. In fact, we were reading all the things about you, and can you tell us about the time in college, you have friends, your literature friends, and you would do metaphor battles.

Abby Wambach (32:54)

Oh, so good. It's like 8 mile, but, like, make it nerdy.

Chanel Miller (33:02)

Yeah. So we would be walking to and from class, and we would have these metaphor battles. So I would, like, point to a street lamp, and my friend would be like, oh, glowing pineapple. Or like, moon holding its breath, like, sucking it in, so it's an oval. Or, you know, it's like, I. I love doing that because it kept your mind super elastic, and it was so fun. I mean, even writing the book. Feelings, awful feelings, aren't fun to have, but they are fun to figure out how to describe. Because then it goes from something that's just festering in you to an actual challenge. You're like, oof, can I put this into. I have 26 letters. Can I rearrange them in a way that's going to replicate this feeling in somebody else? Like, that's so cool.

Abby Wambach (33:59)

It is so cool.

Chanel Miller (34:00)

You're able to harness that and do that. Even when I have these bad, bad feelings at the same time, I'm sort of like, oh, I just unlocked a new one. I unlocked a new challenge, and I have to figure out how to describe this one now.

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Chanel Miller (36:46)

Well, I will say there's been a lot of anti Asian violence and that's been really with me. And I've been thinking about how growing up I was, I was only given like a sliver of visibility in terms of Asian representation. And then all of a sudden you have all this visibility. You can see, I see, oh, that looks like my grandpa on the news. That looks like my mom. But it's a visibility paired with violence. And I'm trying to understand what it does to me to not, not have been given images in the media about my family or me and then suddenly be inundated with them, but they're paired with violence. It's something that I don't know or understand yet. And I've been called on many times throughout the last few years to, to name this feeling and to speak to what's happening. But I can also sense that it's still cooking in me. Like, I swear I have a little dinger. It goes ding and it'll, it'll tell me when it's like, okay, I'm ready to take this out of the oven and like share it with people. But until then, I just know that it's important to stick with this feeling. I will figure it out, but I'm not going to figure it out on a news timeline. I'm going to figure it out on my timeline and then I'll write about it. That's been something I've been thinking about.

Abby Wambach (38:19)

You said that in the courtroom you felt underestimated as a Chinese woman, that the world thought you'd be easier to dismiss, that you wouldn't cause an uproar. But then you said this, which it's because of my mom that I'm not afraid to fight. She grew up under a communist regime and fought for her right to speak freely and came here because she wanted to do that. If she can fight forces much greater than her, I can fight for myself in this stale little courtroom. So talk to us because I hear what you're saying that you're not cooked about the effect of now seeing representation, having it be. I can't wait till you figure that out. So.

Glennon Doyle (39:00)

Yes.

Abby Wambach (39:01)

But can you talk to us about the harm of this model minority myth and how it has such an effect on Asian Americans? I'm having this discussion with my son, who's Japanese. He. I raised him with no context.

Chanel Miller (39:18)

Mm.

Abby Wambach (39:20)

It's shocking to me. And so I sent him out. I just had this conversation similar to this with Ocean Vuong, who I know that you love. But he's just starting to talk to me about this part of his life that I didn't help him with. So talk to us a little bit about what it's like to be underestimated as a Chinese woman and what all of that means.

Chanel Miller (39:48)

Yeah, I think same with my mom. Like, English is her second language. So I've seen people who don't take her seriously or they're more quick to dismiss her because her language isn't just so neatly presented. And that always bothered me because I'm so aware of her complexity and humor and depth and aware of what they're not seeing. My mom is so incredible, and she would come to these meetings with me, with my attorney, and a lot would go over her head. Like, I'd be the one taking notes. But my mom knows, like, this part of your hand is a pressure point to alleviate headaches. Like, she knows that, so. So while I'm taking in this information, she's pinching this part of me. She's regulating my body. Right. She's the one who is keeping me fed. If I'm studying transcripts in my room, she leaves a bowl of steaming noodles outside. I would open my door, bring the noodles inside, steam my face, and then be looking at my transcripts on the floor. But her ways of nurturing were so incredible during that time. I feel like when they saw my side of the courtroom, they didn't see people who were ready to, like, explode on the scene or people who were equipped with the language to observe and unpack everything that was happening. It just reminded me, like, they have no idea, but I do. And that's why, like, as an artist, it's my job to keep telling these stories about me, about my mom, about what it means to move through the world as Asian women. And, yeah, my mom's incredible. Even, like, she one time texted me and said, do you have ski goggles I can borrow? I said, yeah. Like, where are you going? Like, are you gonna snow? Like, what is this shirt? And she was like, I'm going to Burning Man.

Abby Wambach (42:03)

No.

Chanel Miller (42:04)

Like, oh, no.

Glennon Doyle (42:05)

Yeah way.

Chanel Miller (42:06)

Yes, yes, yes. And she went to Burning man. And then she said, now I'm looking for my wedding dress. I was like, why do you need your wedding dress? She's like, I'm going to marry the desert. I was like, okay. She's like, the. You. Like, I can't even. That's what I'm saying is, like, she's so, well, full of surprises. And so are all of us. Like, we just possess so much curiosity that, again, it's something I'm still learning to articulate. All I know is that there's so much there that was never seen and that it's my job, moving forward, to make it known and seen.

Abby Wambach (42:55)

So, Chanel, we talk a lot about mental health on this pod for many different reasons. Mostly because it's a huge journey in my life. And one of my favorite million things that you've said is you describe, I think, the fluctuations between depression and normalcy, whatever that is, as running with slugs or horses.

Glennon Doyle (43:17)

Oh, my gosh, that's amazing.

Abby Wambach (43:19)

First of all, I love that Chanel decides if she's having a depressed time, she's just running with slugs, and if she's not, she's just running with horses. Now, consider the impact of this. It's not Chanel's problem. She's either got a slug or a horse that day. All right? She's gonna do the best she can.

Glennon Doyle (43:35)

That's right.

Abby Wambach (43:35)

With the animal she's been given. Talk to us. Does depression still affect you? What does it look like in your life? This is something, I'm sorry to tell you, that didn't magically go away in my 30s.

Glennon Doyle (43:48)

Yeah.

Chanel Miller (43:49)

Oh, God. Goodness, yes. Something I like that my dad said is that when you're depressed, your vision narrows. And that, to me, was a very clean way of looking at it. And then I thought of another thing, which is like, oh, my vision narrows. So it's like looking through a little toilet paper tube like this. And suddenly, instead of seeing the whole scope of your life and your future and your past, you have this very narrow vision, and you can only see just a little bit, and your focus is just in one spot. And so now when I'm depressed, I think my vision has narrowed. I can only see outside of a little toilet paper tube. And when I'm in this state, I'm not allowed to make any big decisions, and I'm not allowed to draw any grand conclusions about who I am or who I'M going to be. And those are just my rules for when I'm in this state. But I also like it because if you think of the toilet paper tube, I think of it, maybe you can put a little shoelace through it and hang it around your neck like binoculars. And then you know that depression is not just a state, but it's just a different way of seeing. Like, and I know it's always going to be around my neck. I know at times it's the only way I'm going to be able to see things. Other times it's just going to be dangling and it's fine. But I prefer seeing it as this is an altered way of seeing versus just like a state that I'm stuck in indefinitely.

Abby Wambach (45:27)

I feel that. Do you see, there's benefits of the time where. Because a narrowed vision can be negative in that you can't see the periphery. And maybe we shouldn't make decisions because we're not taking the whole scope in literally. But is. Is there a superpower in the narrowed vision time?

Chanel Miller (45:46)

Yeah, because that's all the information. It's not for nothing. Right. It's not just random punishment. There's signals telling you something is wrong. I think the best thing we can do is equip ourselves to investigate it and not abandon it or just wait for it to be over because there's so much there and it makes a lot of sense. Like, of course, it's almost like more surprising when people aren't depressed at this point.

Abby Wambach (46:27)

Yeah. I find them insensitive.

Glennon Doyle (46:30)

Glennon says, I just think that people aren't paying attention.

Abby Wambach (46:33)

Yeah.

Chanel Miller (46:34)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (46:35)

If I weren't depressed, I wouldn't go around talking about it. What do you want for your 30s? Chanel?

Glennon Doyle (46:41)

Yeah.

Chanel Miller (46:42)

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, so, yeah, there's the pressure to produce offspring and the way writers pump out books. It's like book, book, book, book, book. Oh, my goodness. Before I make a decision, I try to identify the origin feeling of what's pushing that decision. And if it's finicky panic, then I have to wait. So I'm in a state of finicky panic, and I need to wait for more grounded times to make these big decisions. But I don't know. I'm still so fresh to myself, truly. We'll see.

Abby Wambach (47:23)

Fresh to myself. I love that. We should strive for that. That's good.

Glennon Doyle (47:28)

I'm wanting to feel fresh to myself.

Abby Wambach (47:31)

I mean, you've become such a model of healing, whether you like it or not. Sorry.

Chanel Miller (47:37)

Yeah, yeah.

Abby Wambach (47:38)

What do you think is helpful for healing. Healing is just constant. Every day, sometimes every hour. I feel like I go through all of the. I was, I am, I will be like, that's. What do you think is most helpful for you and for people when they're trying to get off the floor to the present or to hope for the future? What helps you?

Chanel Miller (48:00)

I think curiosity. Because right now, yeah, I've done so much healing, but I still struggle a lot with vigilance and feeling like bad things can happen all the time and trying to prevent those things. But I wonder all the time about who I would be if I didn't have to be so vigilant all the time. And I really want to meet that person and I really want her to be able to succeed because right now I feel like my creative brain gets really shrunken because I spend so much time thinking about how to keep myself safe and I want to know just who I'd be when I don't have to think about safety all the time. Like that person could do so many things, you know? So that curiosity of meeting her, really knowing her keeps me going. And then I also think, yeah, I still have a really hard time with all this stuff and it's almost like the more I've learned, the more difficult it is to be optimistic, truly. But you know, recently, last fall, all the freshmen at Stanford were required to read my book and I was really nervous to go back, just like we talked about. Going back is really scary. I'm scared of the people I've been. I'm scared to be in those states again and to be hurting that badly or to be that full of self loathing. And I worried that when I went back to Stanford, that old self is waiting for me and she's just going to slip in and repossess this vehicle and I won't have any control and I wouldn't be able to go on stage and present as this like confident person I am now. So I was scared to go back. So I thought I'm just going to go do it quickly, rip off the band aid and the event will be over and I'll go back to my hotel room and unravel if I need to. So I get myself up, I walk over to the campus and there's a few other panelists that day and when they announce my name, I come out and all the students just start clapping and then they don't stop. And I was sitting on stage and all these students are just holding me in this noise. Like if there was Any question whether you are welcome here? We are dissolving it for the next few minutes, and my fellow panelists eventually put down their mics and just looked at me and started clapping, too. And I was just being held in this sound. It was unbelievable. And so I knew I could relax. I knew that for the next hour, I was going to be taken care of. But most importantly, it's like, without a word, the students were saying, we got it. Like, seven years ago, I went to that campus. My life was changed. I had no language for what was happening. I was so lost. Like, I was so hungry for help and lonely. And I was walking around with a little antenna, trying to figure out a single person I could tell who I could trust, trying to figure out where it was safe. And now, all these years later, I'm at the same campus. There's thousands of students who have this information foundationally and will begin the next four years of their lives with it. And most importantly for healing, that to me is the permission, like, you can go now. And I think that's also really what I needed to hear, is like, you don't have to take care of all of us. You don't have to fix everything. Like, we got it. You can go now. Be who you know you're meant to be. And that, for my healing was really important, was not just returning to that place, but finally being released from it and being given the permission that it's okay to redirect my focus now.

Abby Wambach (52:46)

Oh, my God, how beautiful.

Glennon Doyle (52:51)

You had me in tears. And just the fact that you have the humility and the honesty to be like, I'm going back to this place. I have no idea how I'm going to be received.

Chanel Miller (53:05)

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle (53:06)

And then for the place that in maybe your mind created so much of this trauma, could also be the releaser and the freeing into your future.

Abby Wambach (53:18)

You see this with religion a lot. It's like, wherever there's a trauma, the freedom from it has to be a little bit in the original thing. That hurt you.

Glennon Doyle (53:27)

Yeah, in the church. That hurt me.

Abby Wambach (53:28)

Anecdote is the poison in some way. It's so interesting. So, Chanel, in an earlier podcast we did the Susan Cain, she talked to us about filling our social feeds with more art to help our mental health. Our team feels strongly that your Instagram feed is the best mental health healing place to be, because the way that you see the world, the beautiful stories you tell about, I guess what you talked about in the beginning of the pod, about what you're noticing that day, just Helps me notice things in my. That. And just the noticing is so healing. Who do you listen to? Read. Follow. That helps your healing.

Chanel Miller (54:18)

Oh, my goodness. Glennon. Okey dokey. I'm going to redirect my eyeballs to my bookshelf. Ruth Ozeki. Yuan Li. Jia Tolentino. Jenny Zhang. This is really hard because it could go on and on and on forever and ever. Give me a second.

Abby Wambach (54:44)

This is actually a very hard question when people ask me this. Just so you know, every time someone asks me what are my favorite books, I forget that I even know what books are. All I do is read Chanel. It's all I do. Is there anything that you can go to that, you know, maybe it's not art. Maybe it's the dogs. Like, I don't know, but is there anything that you can go to? Like, I keep a little list of my. My list of things, like little healing things so that I can grab them. Play with your dogs for 10 minutes. Go for a walk outside. Get a drink of water.

Glennon Doyle (55:14)

Water.

Abby Wambach (55:14)

Meditate. Like, every time I think that my entire life is horrible and that I need to, like, have a new state and a new religion and a new career, I really usually needed a glass of water. When we're big thinking, usually solution to big thinking is small things.

Glennon Doyle (55:28)

Yeah.

Chanel Miller (55:28)

What is.

Glennon Doyle (55:29)

What is your personal thing that your mom does to you to take care of you?

Abby Wambach (55:37)

Oh, like the version of getting the pressure on your pressure on.

Glennon Doyle (55:40)

On the inside of her.

Abby Wambach (55:41)

Yeah. How do you get that pressure release when your mom's not there to bring you noodles herself?

Glennon Doyle (55:45)

Yeah.

Chanel Miller (55:46)

Yeah. For real. I'm telling you. Like, even just the subway ride or the park, I remind myself that my skull is basically. When you look at me in Manhattan, my school is like a tiny, tiny acorn. And it's full of these swirling thoughts that I think are so big and devastating, but it's really just little acorn in this huge landscape of ginormous silver buildings. So go out into the city. I'll notice things. And also just watch other people inside their lives, because it actually saved me when I realized that there are so many different types of lives unfolding. Even if you feel like you're on one track, it can veer off in so many different directions. And what a relief that is. And so, like, even recently, I saw in the swings, there's a little girl dressed as a mermaid, and her conundrum was like, she was sitting on the baby swing, and she had to fit both of her legs in her mermaid tail through one swing. Hole. I was like, this is her biggest problem today. And if I was in her life, like, that would be my consuming issue of the day, you know? And so just being able to practice stepping outside yourself by seeing the other storylines. People are living in the subway. I was going to do a comic about this. There's these two friends, and this guy had this smiley face patch on his sweatpants. And he and his friend were just sitting, eating grapes, and his friend took a grape, pressed it to the smiley face and went. And his friend was laughing so hard he couldn't breathe. And their little game became pressing the little grape to the mouth, and then the other one would just lose it. Like, that was the whole ride, you know what I'm saying? And, like, that's. My brain is in relief. My brain is inside their game. The world is full of that stuff and it's free and it's happening all the time. And you just gotta, if you are stuck in your little toilet paper roll, depression, redirect that little roll to those small moments. They're not going to save you. But I swear, if you string them along, you come out somewhere different.

Abby Wambach (58:18)

Oh, my God. That's another way of saying, I am here.

Glennon Doyle (58:21)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (58:22)

It's not just getting the inside out to the world, it's getting the outside world into you.

Chanel Miller (58:27)

Yeah. Because we don't often have. I admit, I don't have enough to keep myself afloat all the time. Like, I can't conjure all of that. I need different types of visual nourishment out in the world. You know, I need to see things in motion because it is so hard to just be like, okay, I'm going to meditate this out, or I'm going to do it on my own. It is so hard. I have to cling on to these little things going on outside of me.

Abby Wambach (58:56)

So in our last three minutes, we call this podcast, we can do hard things. What's hard for you right now?

Chanel Miller (59:04)

Oh, what's hard? What's what's not? The hard thing is going to be not thinking about everything I just said for the rest of the day. That's what's hard.

Abby Wambach (59:17)

Yes.

Chanel Miller (59:18)

And so I'm making the declaration right now that I did was best. I spoke whatever bubbled to the top. Maybe I was a little rest in some places. You know why? Because I haven't really been talking to people for two years. So I'm letting it go. And as soon as we're done, probably going to take a bath, probably going to work on literature for younger People and just know that all that mattered is that I feel really great sitting across from both of you. I hope our listeners took something away. And I'll just continue showing up in my truest form, sailing into my 30s.

Abby Wambach (60:04)

Oh, Chanel, yes. Hell, yes to everything you just said.

Glennon Doyle (60:08)

Yes.

Abby Wambach (60:09)

Let us skip the part. How about we skip the part where we both. Because Abby doesn't do this. But what if you and I skipped the part where we worry about every single thing we said this time and we.

Chanel Miller (60:19)

Yeah, what if we're just like, oh, that was good.

Glennon Doyle (60:22)

Guess what?

Abby Wambach (60:22)

Grateful.

Glennon Doyle (60:24)

It will be a revolution if women stop doing that.

Abby Wambach (60:26)

And then that worry keeps us from being present in the next moment. So we'll just go carry on and be present. You be present in your bathtub. Okay. Yeah, Chanel, we will be in your corner and your fans forever. And not because of the big things you do, but because of the little things you do and the way you see the world. And don't let them panic you. Don't let them rush you. You know, you know better than anybody else does on the planet. Unfortunately for you.

Glennon Doyle (60:56)

Yes.

Abby Wambach (60:56)

So you just tell them when it's time for you. You don't let them tell you when it's time for them.

Glennon Doyle (61:01)

And if and when that time comes that you create art and put it out into the world, this place always will always be here for it.

Abby Wambach (61:09)

That's right.

Glennon Doyle (61:10)

Glennon and I will always be here for it. It makes me feel emotional at what impact you have.

Abby Wambach (61:17)

And we'll keep having, but not in the world. Our family, every post, the putty, the gray putty, the two dogs who are deciding on flowers and oh, my God, what if she chooses the blue one or green one? Oh, thank God. She chooses red. You help us see the world for as magical as it is.

Glennon Doyle (61:35)

Yes.

Abby Wambach (61:36)

So thank you for that. We love you forever. Go take a bath. For the rest of you, you also take a bath pod squad.

Glennon Doyle (61:42)

Okay, that's a good next right thing. We'll everybody go take a bath.

Abby Wambach (61:46)

That's right. We'll see you next time on We Can Do Hard Things. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts. Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.