← We Can Do Hard Things
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- [00:00]
Glennon Doyle
I'm always looking for small ways to upgrade my day and that's exactly what Masterclass has become for me. I can learn from the best minds out there in just a few minutes, whether it's in line at the coffee shop or winding down at night. I took James Clears class on building habits and wow. I mean, obviously he's a big time author and one of the biggest takeaways I got is that you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. I've actually implemented a morning habit stack and I feel way more productive without burning out with plans. Starting at just $10 a month billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes from the world's best thinkers, creators and leaders. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com that's 15% off@masterclass.com HardThings Masterclass.com HardThings we are supported by Ring. With Ring you can see more and do more with doorbells and cameras that help you see more to exciting features that help you know more to the app that lets you connect more. Pan around your home for the perfect view with Pan Tilt in indoor cams. 360 degree coverage. Type what you're looking for and find it almost instantly in your recorded events with smart video search and get quick video preview alerts to know what's happening without even needing to go into your phone. I love our Ring. I get to watch our dogs when we're not at home. With Ring you can see more and do more. Learn more@ring.com Some features require a subscription and are available only on select Ring devices. Exclusions apply. Learn more@ring.com.
- [02:04]
Cheryl Strayed
Yay.
- [02:06]
Amanda Doyle
Cheryl Strayed is back. Cheryl Strayed is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller Wild From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, which has sold more than 4 million copies worldwide and was made in into an Oscar nominated film starring Reese Witherspoon. Her bestselling collection of Dear Sugar columns, Tiny Beautiful Things, one of my favorites, was adapted for a newly released television show starring Kathryn Hahn and is available now for streaming on Hulu Straight is also the author of the critically acclaimed novel Torch and the bestselling collection Brave Enough. She lives in Portland, Oregon, and if you have not listened to our first episodes with Cheryl, they were amazing. So go back and check out episodes 118 and 119.
- [02:59]
Cheryl Strayed
I love you so much you know this and I'm now even more obsessed and I have to say, Amanda, one of my favorite episodes is like the All About Amanda episode.
- [03:09]
Amanda Doyle
Did you relate to that one, Cheryl?
- [03:12]
Cheryl Strayed
I did. Well, mainly because I have spent my life as a flirt, too. But I have to say, I'm reformed and I'm more like Abby now. Because you can only play with fire for so long, kids, without getting burned.
- [03:25]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [03:27]
Abby Wambach
This is a follow up episode I.
- [03:28]
Cheryl Strayed
Need to have with you. But Abby, you know what Abby said? I was like, oh, I so relate to that. That idea of, like, you know, here we are launching into this flirtation thing. I'm sure that's not what you guys wanted to talk about right off the bat.
- [03:41]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah, it is.
- [03:42]
Glennon Doyle
We love it.
- [03:42]
Abby Wambach
It's what I want to talk about, Cheryl.
- [03:44]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah, but like, what Abby was saying, it was like, you realize, like, okay, you've gotta flirt responsibly. You know, the energy. People misinterpret it.
- [03:53]
Amanda Doyle
Yes, that's right. Flirt responsibly. I feel like that's kind of like, drink responsibly.
- [04:00]
Abby Wambach
Some of us can. Some of us never can again. That's true.
- [04:04]
Cheryl Strayed
That's right.
- [04:05]
Amanda Doyle
So mad at everyone who can drink responsibly. If I were not an alcoholic, Cheryl, I would drink every damn day.
- [04:11]
Cheryl Strayed
You know, my joke used to be, I'm so glad that I'm not an alcoholic because I love to drink. I've been on an alcohol journey of the last year, actually, like, because I am somebody who can drink responsibly and loves to drink. But also, I did start to realize, you know what? This isn't good. Good for me. This isn't healthy there, you know, all of that stuff. So I've really, like, just got on a personal journey of drinking less and hardly at all anymore. Really?
- [04:41]
Abby Wambach
When you say not healthy for you, in what ways was it impacting you that you're like, mm, mm, this is not good.
- [04:49]
Cheryl Strayed
I actually answered this letter in my most recent Dear Sugar column. I do a once a month on Substack letter. And essentially what happened is I realized I was starting to get letters from people who were saying, listen, I don't have a drinking problem. I'm not an alcoholic. But this letter writer I answered, she said, I tried to do dry January in support of my friend who does have a problem with drinking. Um, and what I found is I couldn't stop drinking. I kept saying I wouldn't drink, and then I would just pour myself a drink at the end of the day. And I answered her letter because I felt like this was reflective of the awakening I've had over this last year or so. And I know that there are so many people out there, I call it, who have a problem without a problem. You know, there's this weird binary that we've fallen into in this culture where it's like the alcoholics are. The people have a problem, and everyone else just gets to drink their heads off every day. And I realized that that was false. And last summer, I got Covid. I was in Greece. I got Covid. I was sick. It was like a nightmare. But when I recovered, I had that experience that I often have after a time of struggle is I. I felt awake and aware, and I wrote a letter to myself. You know, it's very Liz Gilbert of me. And I sat there in Corfu in the searing heat, and I just wrote this letter. Dear Cheryl, here's what you need to do to take better care of yourself. Here's what you've known for ages. And I wrote all kinds of things that I knew. And surprisingly, one of the things I wrote is, you need to drink less. Because what was happening is, even though I never got drunk, even though I didn't, all of the bad consequences of alcohol. I was drinking pretty much every day. I was drinking pretty much two or three glasses every day of wine, which is like triple what is recommended by the cdc, you know, And I wanted to deny. I wanted to say, well, I'm a moderate drinker, because I think by most people's assessment, I am and was. But by, you know, all the doctors and people who know about this stuff say, no, that's actually not moderate at all. So I started to just be mindful about that and to pay attention to how I was using alcohol and why. And I slowly but surely have pretty much stopped drinking.
- [07:16]
Abby Wambach
I'm so thankful you said that, because I do feel like we have this polarization where it's either if you don't have a DUI and you haven't been arrested and your family's still together, then surely you can't have a problem with alcohol. Like, there's this. This bucket. And you almost need a justification. If you go out in the world and you're not drinking, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't just elect to not do that. You have to have a demonstrated history of a problem to do something that aggressive to the world.
- [07:48]
Cheryl Strayed
Absolutely. Like a lot of stuff that a lot of us wake up to and realize, wait a minute, we've been fed this false binary that it's like you're either this or that you're good or bad, you're an alcoholic, or you're fine, you know, whatever it is. Almost always that binary is a false narrative. And if you can bring mindfulness, I feel like obviously there are lots of people out there who are like, no, I can't drink again because it was a destructive force in my life. But I'm not one of those people. I don't have a list of things that I could say, this is what alcohol ruined for me. But what I do know is that it was slowly, kind of silently probably ruining my health, that it is better. I do enjoy having a clearer mind and waking up in the morning not feeling that little tiny, teeny eeny beanie hangover, all of that stuff, you know. And so I just think that there's so much conversation right now about mindful drinking and sober curious and that whole category of drinkers who, you know, would do well to think more mindfully about their drinking, even if they're not going to completely give it up.
- [08:52]
Amanda Doyle
Holly Whitaker does a beautiful job in her book Quit Like a Woman, talking about how, you know, big alcohol is the one that even put out the idea, drink responsibly. Because actually, what does that mean? They created this idea that there's a group of people that alcohol is bad for and you can find them in AA meetings and then the rest of the world, alcohol is good for. But actually, instead of asking ourselves, do I have a problem? We could always ask, is this benefiting me in my life? Like, is it helpful for me to be drinking alcohol? And one of the things I always think about is most tragic about all of the things we do to kind of take the edge off. I get taking the edge off. It's probably why I go to bed at 7:30.
- [09:37]
Abby Wambach
Like.
- [09:39]
Amanda Doyle
That'S when the edge really emerges, right?
- [09:42]
Abby Wambach
So she's like, good night moon, I'm out.
- [09:45]
Amanda Doyle
But I know I've said this before, but I think it's so important to me. It's like the edge, that discomfort or that little bit of suffering that we take off with the booze or the shopping or whatever, that discomfort is usually what propels us to change. Like, what this suffering that makes us make changes in our life. Like, we're like, oh, this friendship sucks and I can't. And then we just drink it away. Oh, I need to switch jobs. I can't stand my job. And then we kind of drink the edge away, but the edge of discomfort is there so that we won't stay in discomfort. So, so, so that we will move so that we will change, so that we will do that, make the hard decision. So I always think of it in terms of, like, the edge is there for a reason. Like, it's a gift to you to point you in one direction or not. And when we dull that edge forever, we just stay in me.
- [10:39]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, that there are healthy ways of dulling that edge. You know, one of them is sleep. One of them is going to bed at 7:30 instead of having a drink or going for a walk or calling someone you care about. I know, Glenn, and you're against phone calls, but, you know, connecting, texting. And you know, for me, what I realized, because that was the thing when I decided in Corfu, I had to drink less. My. My feeling wasn't like, yes, I can do this. My feeling was like, I can't. I can't. Because that's what I do every night when the day is over and I'm cooking dinner or whatever. That's my glass of wine. That's my treat for myself. I give so much to so many people. Can't I give myself any? And I was almost mad that I was gonna have to surrender this. But here's what happened. It ended up being much easier than I thought it would be. Because once I just decided, cheryl, you can keep giving yourself something at day's end, it just isn't going to be alcohol. I replaced it with other stuff because there, there are like, really cool ways to take the edge off some of. Some of the things I listed. But I had a bad habit, and we can change our bad habits. And now, you know, I don't know what my drinking life ahead is going to be. I'm still sort of exploring, but one of the ideas I've sort of latched onto is maybe I drink alcohol as often as maybe I eat birthday cake. That it's kind of like every once in a blue moon, I will have a glass or two of wine, kind of with the regularity, I might have a piece of birthday cake. Right.
- [12:14]
Glennon Doyle
I love that. And when I think about alcohol, I'm. I've been sober almost seven years now. It's like the human body is our processing vessel. So if we are poisoning it, because whether we want to admit this or not, alcohol is poison. And if we do that, we are not giving ourselves the ability to be fully human. I think about this so often in terms of creativity, in terms of planning podcasts, in terms of my business, in terms of my family. I need to be completely on all the time so that nothing falls through the cracks. And I am so grateful every morning to wake up and to know that I have nothing that I have to, like, worry about.
- [12:57]
Amanda Doyle
Oh, God, yeah. Apologize for.
- [12:59]
Glennon Doyle
Oh, gosh.
- [13:00]
Cheryl Strayed
Oh, yeah.
- [13:01]
Abby Wambach
Do you still wake up after parties being like, what did I say? Oh, my God. And then I'm like, wait, I don't need to worry about that anymore.
- [13:07]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [13:09]
Cheryl Strayed
Well, at least most of the time. Every once in a while, I'll say something really ridiculous even though I'm stone cold sober.
- [13:15]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah, that's the thing. We're still ourselves, aren't we? Still ourselves.
- [13:19]
Abby Wambach
But it can be applied to everything. Like Cher, what you just said is so important. The anger about being like, I give to everyone else. And this is the one thing. And so you're saying not only do I need to keep giving to everyone else, now I can't have my one thing. But that's so true in. In our relationships. It's true. You can't just take away alcohol. You can't take away anything. You have to replace the thing that is meeting that need with something else that's working better for you. And so don't just take away, say, what am I going to add? What was missing that I was filling with this thing? And give yourself the time and the money and the like, invitation to do that.
- [14:01]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah, absolutely. And the permission to, you know, for me, one. One of the things is I went on a journey of the. The non alcoholic wine replacement beverages. So then let me just tell you, they all taste like apple cider vinegar.
- [14:15]
Amanda Doyle
Y.
- [14:18]
Cheryl Strayed
So I would pour my glass of apple cider vinegar and say to my husband, I'm in the mood for a tasty glass of vinegar. Like, you know, but it helped me through. And I tried all these different ones and you know, you mentioned Holly Whitaker, Glennon and also Laura McCowan, people who've written really pretty amazing books that have been so illuminating and enlightening to me. And one of the things that, honestly, I have to say, I'm 54. I didn't know really about alcohol. Abby, you said that it is a poison. It really is. And that too shifted my thinking when I understood that no amount of alcohol is good for you. Now, of course we all consume other things that aren't good for us too. But to really think about that and take that fact in the fact that it took me this long to actually know that, and it's thanks to those books by those women and others says something about our culture and the culture of alcohol.
- [15:16]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [15:17]
Amanda Doyle
Cheryl, will you tell us anything else that was in that letter of the list of things that you knew about yourself, that you wrote to yourself?
- [15:25]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah. It's interesting because they were all actually about this kind of thing, which is to, in some ways, you know, love myself. I think that. That I am really good at looking outward and seeing, like, what do people need from me? How can I support the people in my life? My kids, my partner, my friends, the. The. Frankly, even, you know, readers and fans. Like, how do I put my energy outward in a way that makes them happy? I know how to do that. I've nailed that. What I really struggle with is prioritizing myself. And I think this experience with COVID what ended up happening is I was alone in an Airbnb for a week in Corfu where I knew not one person. So I'm just in Greece, sick as hell with COVID And I emerged from this. This Airbnb and just sat on the street writing that letter to myself. And. And it was all about how the primacy of the body and how I need to care for me. Me and exercise, diet, drink less. And by diet, I don't mean eat less. I mean be more mindful about nurturing myself. Nurturing. Consuming things that make me feel good, and then the spirit. Making space in my life for the things that bring me joy. Making space in my artistic life for the things that I actually am curious about pursuing again. I'm 54. All my life, I've wanted to learn how to. This is going to sound insane, okay? But I'm going to.
- [17:01]
Glennon Doyle
No, it will not. I know you're going to say something.
- [17:03]
Cheryl Strayed
I know you guys are going to laugh, and I know I would look ridiculous to doing it, but I've always wanted to learn how to tap dance. And my husband, every year, he's like, I'm going to give you tap dance lessons for Christmas. And I'm like, don't, don't. It'll just be a burden because I don't have time to learn how to tap. Tap dance. So, you know, maybe I need to learn how to tap dance.
- [17:24]
Amanda Doyle
Yes, you do.
- [17:26]
Glennon Doyle
Cheryl Strayed, we are sending you tap shoes.
- [17:29]
Cheryl Strayed
Doesn't that sound like fun?
- [17:30]
Amanda Doyle
Yes, it sounds amazing.
- [17:32]
Abby Wambach
It sounds absurd. And that is why it's necessary.
- [17:35]
Amanda Doyle
Yes.
- [17:36]
Abby Wambach
Because we don't have any absurdity. We just have this practical shit all day long.
- [17:41]
Cheryl Strayed
I know. And here's the thing, too. What I know is I would laugh the whole time.
- [17:47]
Glennon Doyle
Yes, I would laugh the whole time. Me, too. I imagine myself Tap dancing.
- [17:53]
Cheryl Strayed
It's so good. And have you ever had this experience? I've had this experience lately because it has been not the easiest time in my life the last few years. And that I actually. When I laugh with abandon, I actually feel it in my body, like a good thing. It's like a wave of something really positive.
- [18:12]
Abby Wambach
It's like an orgasm when you're really laughing.
- [18:14]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [18:15]
Cheryl Strayed
Yes. My new theory is, like, actually seeking that out. Seeking out laughter is one of the most healing acts of love we can give ourselves.
- [18:26]
Glennon Doyle
So good. I've been doing that exercise with smiling. It's so weird. But even if you put a fake smile on, I'll do it for a few minutes a day. And I feel ridiculous doing it. It looks ridiculous, but I actually feel better. There's something chemically happening. I know it for sure in my bones. So just go out there and laugh. Find laughter. And also just smile to yourself.
- [18:50]
Amanda Doyle
Cheryl. We were just talking to Gloria Steinem, and she said that one of the many reasons why laughter is so magical is because it's proof of freedom, because people can make us do anything. Like, you can be compelled to do anything, except you cannot make someone laugh, which is so funny, because that's the way we use the language. We say, I made her laugh. I made him laugh. But it's the one thing that either has to be faked if you're going to make somebody laugh. Right. But a true laugh can't be compelled. It can only be given.
- [19:26]
Abby Wambach
And it's one of the only ways you can surprise yourself in this world where nothing's a surprise, except, oh, we need a new transmission on the vehicle. Like, there's no fun surprises left in life. Except, like, when something makes you laugh hard, it's very often a not expected. You weren't planning that in your day. And it's just like, we lose the. The surprise, the unexpected. And laughing is like, I just surprised myself. What a damn joy.
- [19:58]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah, you just made me laugh, Amanda. Because. Yeah, the transmission and like, oh, the cat vomited again on the floor. And I mean, do you guys have this life, too?
- [20:07]
Amanda Doyle
Yes.
- [20:07]
Cheryl Strayed
Like, my life is all that.
- [20:09]
Abby Wambach
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [20:10]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah, we just had it this morning. Basically, all we talk about is when our dog took a shit and when she threw up. That's what we talk about all day.
- [20:18]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah, Well, I have two dogs and three cats.
- [20:21]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [20:21]
Cheryl Strayed
So there's a lot of that going on.
- [20:23]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, a lot of that for sure.
- [20:24]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah.
- [20:34]
Glennon Doyle
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- [21:06]
Abby Wambach
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- [22:13]
Glennon Doyle
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- [23:12]
Amanda Doyle
Cheryl I have to tell you a couple things. Abby and I just binge watched all of Tiny Beautiful Things. Yes, I was scared because Tiny Beautiful Things is one of the books that I give away the most in the world.
- [23:27]
Abby Wambach
Thank you.
- [23:28]
Amanda Doyle
I will always. I just. It's a Magical thing, that book. And I was nervous about them trying to translate it to tv. I felt very protective. And, oh, my God, it's so beautiful. Are you so happy with it? All the magic of the book is in it.
- [23:48]
Glennon Doyle
Kathryn Hahn. Get out of here with Kathryn Hahn.
- [23:51]
Amanda Doyle
Everybody in the production. How do you feel about it?
- [23:56]
Cheryl Strayed
Well, first of all, I feel so thrilled that you guys loved it. You're among the very first kind of people outside the project who I've talked to about it. So thank you so much. And, yes, I am really touched by it and proud of it. I was very involved in the making of it. I was in the writer's room, which was led by the amazing showrunner and creator, Liz Tigelar. And this a team of just beautiful, amazing writers. And then on the set last summer, watching these spectacular, all the cast and crew bringing their beauty to it and their lives to it. So I'm thrilled. It's so touching to me to see the ways that that book has traveled, you know, And I couldn't be more excited for everyone to see the show.
- [24:45]
Amanda Doyle
It's so beautiful. For anyone who doesn't know, can you talk to our audience about Dear Sugar and how that all started and what it has become to you?
- [24:55]
Cheryl Strayed
Yes. So back in early 2010, I had just finished the first draft of Wild, and I sent it to my editor, and I got this email in this. In this sort of downtime that I was waiting for my editor to get back to me with wild notes from Steve Almond. At the time, he was just an acquaintance. He's now my friend. And he said, cheryl, I have been writing this Dear Sugar column for the Rumpus. It's an advice column. Anonymous. I write anonymously. You. I know you read it because I've only received one fan letter, and it was from you.
- [25:28]
Amanda Doyle
Early adopter Cheryl Strayed.
- [25:30]
Cheryl Strayed
That's right. That's right. And I later, I was like, that's not true. Right, You. And he said, no, literally, you're the only person who ever read it and wrote to me. And he said, listen, when I got your email, I realized you are the real Sugar. And he had read my essays on my first novel, Torch, at that time. And he said, I don't want to do it anymore. It pays nothing. Nobody reads it. Nobody writes to me asking for advice. Would you like to take it over?
- [25:54]
Amanda Doyle
Sounds like an offer you couldn't refuse, Cheryl.
- [25:57]
Cheryl Strayed
Really? I mean, it's like no pay and no recognition. Sign me up, you know, which I know sounds insane, but I did. I said yes. And that did go on to become some of the really core pieces of advice I give to people over and over again is, you know, trust your gut, Trust yourself. Maybe that letter I wrote to myself in Corfu, I mean, that's. That's the place from which I was speaking then, too, saying, here's what you know is true, and it's the stuff that sparks you to life. So I said yes. And the great thing about writing for no pay is you can do whatever the hell you want to do. And I decided that I wasn't going to write a traditional advice column where I am like, the person who knows everything and I tell you what to do. I was going to use story to help save others, because stories have saved me. And I really went in there and essentially wrote essays about many aspects of life, telling stories from my own life, telling stories sometimes about my friends lives with their permission. And I just really believed that that kind of storytelling would be something that would help illuminate people's questions rather than just tell them, like, what I think they should do and keep it. And it grew cult following online. And so over the years. Couple years later, I revealed my identity as Sugar and then published Tiny Beautiful Things, which is a collection of these columns. And. And now there's a new edition of it out, the 10th anniversary edition with some new columns.
- [27:31]
Amanda Doyle
It's why everyone listens to you, because what you do is again and again in beautiful new ways. Every time say you already know the answer.
- [27:42]
Cheryl Strayed
That's right.
- [27:43]
Amanda Doyle
And is that why the things we do to take the edge off are so dangerous? Because I think we do those things so we can stop knowing. Right?
- [27:55]
Cheryl Strayed
That's right. That's it. You nailed it, Glennon. You want to take over? Is there sugar? But no, that's. And that's it. Over and over again. You see me in the letter saying I have, like, absolute clarity about what you should do. Here it is. And not because I think you should do it, but because you think you should do it. And you know what you want and you're afraid to know it. You're afraid to know it. Just like that drink less thing for me, I was afraid to know it because guess what happens when you know something? You have to act on it.
- [28:28]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [28:29]
Cheryl Strayed
And that's no fun sometimes, or that's scary sometimes, or that breaks our heart sometimes. At least in the short run. But I promise you, in the long run, you will be better for it. In the long run, the broken heart you will carry if you don't act on that knowing is a mighty burden to bear.
- [28:47]
Abby Wambach
I will never forget your line from the book. The worst thing for us is, is believing that a lie will keep us safe and truth is where the danger lies. We hide from, not from acknowledging what we know is true, because we think if we stay on this side of acknowledging it, we're going to somehow be safe. But we're never safe there.
- [29:13]
Cheryl Strayed
Absolutely. I know all of us have lived that right and also lived on the other side. To be like, okay, I'm not going to say this thing or do this thing or make this move because it feels risky. It feels like I'll be endangering myself. And then the journey we all went on as we learned that that was the lie. That actually, like when you bring things into the light, when you speak your truth, when you live out what you know is the right way, you know that that puts you in the safer zone because then you're aligned. You know, the most painful thing is to be misaligned, to have your life out here be different from your life in here.
- [29:52]
Amanda Doyle
Oh, you know, I'm thinking about what you just said when you said, glenn, you don't. I know you don't do phone calls. And I was thinking about how that has become less true over the last eight, nine months of my life. When I started recovery and had to take away the thing I was doing to not know a lot, anorexia restriction. I had to replace. You have to replace things. And so I started accepting phone calls and like, actually even calling people every once in a while to say, ah, help, like, whatever people do when they're hurting. And I think it's so interesting that we have to reach out to people so that they can act as mirrors for us. Because strangers are writing to you and you're seeing in their letter one line or two lines that gives you the clue that they already know exactly what they need to do. And then you're saying to them, I see you go forth. You have permission to do the thing that you want to do. And that's what all the phone calls are about. For me, like, I call. The people that I know are just going to mirror me back to me. It's just so amazing how we all say you already know what to do, and that is half of it. And then you need someone else to see that about you and say you have permission to do what you know to do.
- [31:24]
Cheryl Strayed
Absolutely. I mean, I, I learned this over and over again that, that validating, just validating people's lives and experiences and Perceptions about who they are. We all need that. And it's such a healing act. And it can also be an incredibly motivating one for if somebody can just say to you, yeah, Glennon, I see that this is your struggle, and that that somehow allows you to keep going. Right?
- [31:52]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [31:53]
Cheryl Strayed
Yes. It's a powerful thing. I mean, that's what connection is, that we, for a moment, become one. Right. I hear very deeply what you're saying, and you feel heard, and then it goes the other way, too. It's a beautiful thing. And when we don't call people Glennon, we deny ourselves.
- [32:11]
Amanda Doyle
That's right.
- [32:12]
Cheryl Strayed
The ability to get that. And I relate to that. I have found myself, and especially when I am feeling sad or struggling or having a hard time with something, I isolate even. You know, I think we all do. Right. Because you're like, oh, I don't want to drag everyone down because I don't have a happy story to tell today. And then if I can push through that and go out, meet my friends for a walk or tea or whatever, I always feel better. And it's because of that thing, that connection that's so important.
- [32:42]
Glennon Doyle
I just texted Glennon this yesterday because we're having some friends events happening over the coming days, and she texted me, do you think I'll be okay? Am I going to get through this? And I said, you know, I don't think you're equating what it could positively bring to you. Like, what we're doing is we're just like, oh, it's effort, it's time. But we're not also bringing into the equation how a community of people or reaching out to somebody else could actually improve your life or improve your circumstance in some way. They might not have any advice or help, but the knowing that somebody is there might actually make you feel better about your circumstance.
- [33:22]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah, for sure. And it might not even be this deep stuff we're talking about where they're, like, you know, affirming. It might just be that you laugh.
- [33:29]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [33:29]
Cheryl Strayed
That you go tap dancing together. That's right. That's important, too. Right. Just the joy that others can bring. I have this sort of theory about travel that, like, when we decide to go on a trip, the thing we imagine about that trip is just all the, like, great stuff that we're going to do and see, and it's just, like, happy. And then you get there and, you know, your luggage didn't make it with you, and you eat some bad food and you have diarrhea, and then you Get Covid.
- [33:57]
Abby Wambach
You get Covid.
- [33:57]
Glennon Doyle
And Greece.
- [33:58]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [33:59]
Cheryl Strayed
I mean, my Greece trip was a disaster. Okay. I always call this retrospective fun. Right? Like that. Then you get home and, like, nobody wants to hear your stories about, like, how beautiful the sunset was over Maui. Right. They want to hear your stories about when you almost, you know, crapped yourself to death in Guatemala. Yes, that is a better story. That's a longer lasting story. And this does actually have a point, trust me. I'm going to wind back to this. This Glenn and getting together with friends thing is so the. Maybe the opposite happens when we think about connecting with friends or making that call or getting together where you think, like, you're imagining all the negative stuff. Like, I'm going to have to, like, get ready and I'm going to have to go somewhere and I'm going to have to, you know, be on for a bit. And then you get there and you have a blast and you think, what was. Why was I having so much anxiety about this? This was wonderful. I feel great. Maybe that there is something to remember about that. That you're going to feel better after you do it, but. And keep that in your mind.
- [34:59]
Amanda Doyle
I think that's right. I used to feel that way with family trips so much. I think I still do. Like when kids are little and you go on a family trip, I used to just be looking at them and, you know, I'd be carrying all their shit and they'd be crying and. And I would look at them and think, one day I'm going to think this was fun. Like, right when I get back, I'm gonna somehow look back on that. But I was never actually happy.
- [35:24]
Cheryl Strayed
Retrospective fun. Yes. Yeah. It's a real thing. It really is. It certainly wasn't very fun to hike the Pacific Grass trail.
- [35:33]
Amanda Doyle
Right.
- [35:34]
Cheryl Strayed
I mean, you know, it was a lot of things and it was sometimes fun, but mostly it was like, toil and hardship and pain. And then of course, it was the best thing I ever did.
- [35:44]
Glennon Doyle
But isn't life about building memories? Right. And not every memory is gonna be like, you know, joyful, but still the memories of traveling with the kids are the things that you take with you everywhere you go.
- [35:57]
Amanda Doyle
Right?
- [35:58]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah.
- [35:58]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [35:58]
Abby Wambach
And I think life is about activating all the parts of you. And if we are only staying in this lane all the time, we are not activating and accessing all of the multitude of what we contain. And so many of us are in this, like. Well, my to do list is 1400 things long. And I know I owe the People, all of these things. And so I wish I had time to be with friends, but I don't. And I'm a little bitter that people keep telling me to do it because they're lucky enough to have time when I don't. But it's the only place where, like this funny math works, where that hour that you invest it multiplies in your life. I don't know how it works, but it adds more life and margin to you than you put into it. And so, yes, you don't have time. You don't have time to do it, but you almost don't have time not to do it because you need that multiplier in your life. It's too much.
- [37:00]
Glennon Doyle
I've been kind of toying with this idea of what makes me feel most alive. And I have figured out that there's a Before feeling most alive, the thinking about something, the doing of something, when I feel most alive, and the after having done something, I feel most alive. All of those alive feelings, the feeling it before the middle and after having done something, they're all important. They all have the same amount of importance in my life and my well being and my happiness. So I don't know if this makes any sense.
- [37:34]
Amanda Doyle
I like the framing of aliveness. Instead of what makes me happy, I say what makes me happy. I'm like, I'll just still stay on the couch.
- [37:40]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [37:40]
Cheryl Strayed
Because happiness has a kind of. Is sort of lightweight. Aliveness is. It's all the levels and layers. Abby. So how many things are on your list of what makes you feel alive and how many of them do you do on a daily basis?
- [37:56]
Glennon Doyle
I love that you ask this because I'm a data person. So I've actually been trying to toy with creating a list of data points so that I can actually attribute point value to the things that I do if I'm feeling down or low.
- [38:10]
Abby Wambach
Such an athlete that I can. I won today.
- [38:13]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. I can put three things into my day and the value of my, my aliveness will go up. So in terms of the things that make me feel alive before I do them are like when I look forward to trips, I feel excited. When I look forward to spending time with my family and my kids, things that make me feel alive when I'm actually doing them. Golfing, surfing, things that make me feel alive after I have done them, Working out, going on a walk. I know that there are some people who like walking. I like having had walked because I would prefer running. I would like to get there as quickly as possible. And walking feels like the slowest method.
- [38:52]
Cheryl Strayed
How can you not like, walk? Well, wait a minute. How are we going to do the at together, man, if you're going to try to run it, I know it.
- [39:00]
Glennon Doyle
Would be, it's going to be hard.
- [39:04]
Amanda Doyle
You know, the camera shot of Abby like so far away running and pan back to Cheryl.
- [39:09]
Abby Wambach
It's like plot.
- [39:11]
Cheryl Strayed
Like, what kind of person is this? Like somebody who doesn't like puppies. Like, how do you not like walking?
- [39:16]
Glennon Doyle
Because it's boring. Because it's boring.
- [39:20]
Amanda Doyle
Okay, I love walking.
- [39:22]
Glennon Doyle
You love walking, but I know you.
- [39:23]
Cheryl Strayed
Do Glennon and you walk every day like me and twice a day. This, though, I have to say, is probably why Abby is different from us. And she's a champion world class athlete.
- [39:35]
Glennon Doyle
Yes. But here's the thing. I still attribute the same amount of value to when I walk, to when I'm surfing and to when I'm thinking about going on a trip. Like that aliveness is the exact same. It's like I still feel the energy from having walked. So I know that about myself. I know that I have a predisposition to have like a little bit of lazy. I like being a little bit of lazy. And to counteract that, I have to remind myself, oh, I feel really alive when I'm done doing a hard thing that I that whether it's working out or lifting weights or going on a run, I think that it's important for people to especially to try to build the habits in life that to make you feel most alive.
- [40:24]
Cheryl Strayed
Foreign.
- [40:31]
Glennon Doyle
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- [41:37]
Amanda Doyle
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- [42:41]
Glennon Doyle
There's just something about summer. The sun's out longer, everything slows down a little, and suddenly a getaway feels not just nice, but necessary. A couple summers ago, my friends and I escaped to the mountains and found this incredible Airbnb cabin. Big windows, warm breezes, and views that looked like they belonged on a postcard. We grilled outside, watched the sunset every night and actually had room to breathe. Way more than a hotel could have offered. Summer is the perfect time to travel. Whether it's a weekend at the lake, a beach trip with the kids, or a mountain retreat with friends. And with Airbnb, it's easy to find places that feel like a home away from home. More space, more privacy, and way more room for memories. When I was growing up, summer trips meant cramming into one tiny hotel room. But now with Airbnb, everyone gets to stretch out, relax and still be together. So if summer's Calling book one of the most loved homes on Airbnb, it's the best way to soak up the season in total comfort and style.
- [43:45]
Amanda Doyle
So let's hear from some of our listeners who were so excited to ask the Sugar some questions about their lives. Can we hear from Bethany?
- [43:57]
Cheryl Strayed
Hi, my name is Bethany and I.
- [44:00]
Amanda Doyle
Had a question for Dear Sugar for Cheryl Straight.
- [44:04]
Cheryl Strayed
My question is probably not a super unique one. I feel like Basic mom asking this question, but I am in my mid-40s.
- [44:13]
Amanda Doyle
My kids are growing up and they.
- [44:15]
Cheryl Strayed
Don'T need me as much.
- [44:17]
Amanda Doyle
And even before I had kids, never really fell particularly in love with my.
- [44:22]
Cheryl Strayed
Career or what I was doing.
- [44:24]
Glennon Doyle
And now I left that for a.
- [44:26]
Cheryl Strayed
Little while, and I don't know.
- [44:28]
Abby Wambach
I kind of don't know where to go from here.
- [44:31]
Amanda Doyle
And maybe that's midlife crisis.
- [44:33]
Cheryl Strayed
I don't know. But wondering if Dear Sugar has any advice for those of us moms who are feeling a little bit lost in the middle of things. Thanks. Oh, I love this question. Bethany, congratulations. Welcome to your midlife crisis. Yes, that is the good news. I really do. I do believe that. Do you know what I mean, guys?
- [44:58]
Abby Wambach
Yes, yes.
- [44:59]
Amanda Doyle
It is the best of times. It is not the worst of times.
- [45:02]
Cheryl Strayed
And it doesn't feel like the best of times always when we're in these transition periods. But I do think that this is this wonderful moment, Bethany, in your life where things are breaking open and you say you feel lost. You say you don't know where to go from here and what an exciting time that is. Because two things, what I want to say is that when we do feel lost, well, you know, then our main task is to go about the business of finding our way. And what that means is you get to go on a journey. You get to follow your curiosity. You get to follow that voice inside of you that we've been talking about so far that. That voice of inner truth that says, like, here's what I know about myself and. And the beautiful thing, at middle age, you know a lot. You know, you know you didn't dig your career so much. You know you love your children beyond words, and they are needing you less and less as. As they grow up. And now you have more freedom. And I think so many of us experience that, you know, that kind of quarter life crisis in our 20s where the questions are all about the road ahead and all about who. Who am I and where should I go and what direction should I take? And. And you took the direction you did, Bethany. And here you are now, 20 years later, in your mid-40s. And now the question you get to answer is not who am I? But who am I really? And who you are really is the woman who's going to get to live this next chapter of your life, and one that possibly, I think I know, in fact, with great certainty, will be more aligned with that person you'd most truly are.
- [46:45]
Amanda Doyle
You know, I think about when I think of the word lost, as someone who gets lost a lot because I'm not great at directions for truly like, literally, you know what, when you're lost, what you also are is very, very alive.
- [47:00]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah.
- [47:01]
Amanda Doyle
When you are taking a route that you've known a million times. Like sometimes life can be. When our kids are in our house, you know, routine, routine, routine. There's a sleepness. You can sleepwalk that through it. And then when you were lost and you're think about when you're in a new place and you don't recognize anywhere, you are alive to yourselves. You're so aware. And I think that is the magic of this time. Right. And it's like, crisis is one of my favorite words in the whole world, actually. I always think of. Everybody talks about crisis as a problem, but it's actually the root of it is to sift. Sifting like that, where all the sand falls away, like in one of those sifters, and you just have the treasures left over. I think. Stay alive, stay lost, look for the treasures. It's exciting time, women stepping into a time of life when people aren't needing us. Holy shit. There's a lot of freedom in that.
- [47:59]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [48:00]
Cheryl Strayed
And I'd say, too, Bethany, to really embrace this, like, actually go after those things that might help you think about what to do next. Go on a. Like an actual trip or a journey, if you can. If you can't do that, try to do something outside your comfort zone right there where you live, you know, Take the tap dancing class. If you always wanted to be a tap dancer, Sign up for something that surprises you and see what happens.
- [48:28]
Amanda Doyle
I love it. I love it. Love it. Okay, I think we have Kate next. Hi, my name is Kate. My question is, when you have the clarity to understand that your relationship is not healthy and you can't stay in it, but you love the person, how do you walk away with grace and dignity and let go of the resentment and remorse that may have come from the relationship and just carry on into.
- [49:00]
Cheryl Strayed
The light of yourself? Oh, Kate. You know, this is a question that I would say that it's really one of the very most common questions I get, because it is hard to tell someone you love that you no longer want to be with them, that you don't want to stay, that you want to go. And you want to go even though you love the person you know, and that you don't want to have that goodbye be one that's. That's one full of anger and wreckage and animosity and the advice I give over and over again, it's such a simple piece of advice and so hard to do. But what I know for sure, Kate, is you can do it, is that you tell the truth. And you tell the truth with all of your heart and all of your compassion and all of your intelligence and all of your courage and all of your strength, and you hold within you that little beautiful, glowing gem of clarity that. That. That contains two truths that are not opposite each other. That you love this person you've been in partnership with, and you want to end the relationship as it exists now, and that you always return to that. You say that you don't want to hold resentment and remorse and all of those things. And I think that that's about staying mindful about your intentions. Your intentions are to lovingly end a relationship. And sometimes there's anger and resentment gets tangled up in that. But I promise you, if you can stay true to that, to that deepest core truth within yourself, those things won't be what dominate your. Your mind or the tenor of this breakup.
- [50:41]
Glennon Doyle
Oh, you've just solved so many. The reasons why many of my breakups did not end well.
- [50:49]
Amanda Doyle
Both things happen is so beautiful.
- [50:52]
Glennon Doyle
I just wasn't able to be completely honest. I just wasn't. And I thought it was kindness, but in fact, my lack of ability to be completely truthful was probably, in the long run, unkindness.
- [51:08]
Cheryl Strayed
It's so true. And, Abby, I think that it goes back to this terrible binary thing. I think a lot of people feel like, well, in order to leave, in order for me to say, you know, this isn't working for me, and I want to end this relationship, or at least in the way that it exists right now, romantic, sexual, whatever. I want to transition into a friendship or I want to end it all together. Whatever it is, is that we think, like, okay, we have to have a reason that is outside of ourselves. Yes. It has to be. You're a bad person. You don't meet my needs in this way. You can't just say, like, you are amazing and I love you, and I'm so grateful for everything we shared and everything I learned from you, and I will love you always in a different way, but I no longer want to be in this relationship. Like, just to say with simple clarity that truth. I think so many people feel that and are terrified of saying it.
- [52:04]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [52:04]
Cheryl Strayed
And so what they do is then they make it dirty.
- [52:06]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [52:07]
Amanda Doyle
And they get dirty.
- [52:08]
Cheryl Strayed
They lie, they manipulate and gaslight. They create conflict where there really doesn't need to be any. All of those things then end up, you know, we make a dirty break instead of a clean one.
- [52:20]
Amanda Doyle
We demonize the other person because we think we have to prove ourselves. We have to make a case.
- [52:26]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah.
- [52:27]
Amanda Doyle
For leaving. Because we don't think we deserve to just go because we want to.
- [52:32]
Cheryl Strayed
That's right. That's right.
- [52:34]
Amanda Doyle
So beautiful. Can we please hear from sweet Erica?
- [52:38]
Cheryl Strayed
Hi, my name is Erica. I would like to get Cheryl or Sugar's thoughts on how to best love and exist with someone who is in the depths of addiction and depression. It's not just anyone. It's one of my most cherished humans on this planet, whom I love deeply. It's my adult son. I do pretty good, but the ache is always there and the pain is sometimes unbearable. It's hard for me to even think.
- [53:04]
Amanda Doyle
Say it out loud.
- [53:05]
Cheryl Strayed
It's a silent pain.
- [53:06]
Amanda Doyle
I feel like I'm always carrying. I would love to hear your insight on this.
- [53:11]
Cheryl Strayed
Thank you for all you do. Oh, Erica, I. I think that the experience that you are having with your son is way up there among the most painful, painful experiences any of us can have. I don't think that there's anything that I can say that would negate that suffering that you're experiencing, except to say that I think the way you love your son is, I'm going to guess, the way that you have been loving him all along, which is wildly, deeply, unconditionally recognizing always that your son is not his addiction. Those two things are not the same. And I think the most positive way you can love him through this experience is to also remember to love yourself. That sounds really like maybe trite sometimes to go, we can't forget the self care routine. Because I know that that sounds like absolute bullshit in the face of the monumental suffering that you're experiencing. And yet what I have found, and I want to say, Erica, even though I haven't written about this publicly or talked about this a lot, I have had experiences that are like yours, not with a child, but with other family members. And there is this terrible, terrible, powerless one feels when. When you watch somebody you love so dearly suffering and you don't know how to help them. And what I figured out, this. This love yourself thing, it actually finds its way back to the question you're asking me, which is how to love your son. And what I mean by this is, I think when we're in pain, we can get very often caught up in this sense. This. This kind of powerless cycle of what do I do to change him? What do I do to help him? What do I do to support him? And all of those things are so much outside of our control. But what is inside of our control is to say, how do I make myself strong and brave and whole so that I can be that strong, brave, whole person that will be there for this person I love so much. And what that looks like are the little things literally like the thing I said earlier about like seeking out opportunities to laugh, seeking out opportunities to connect, seeking out opportunities not just to do the deep work, obviously with like a therapist or somebody who can really help you through the epic psychological task that you've been given because you're in this situation, but the things that actually nurture you and make you stronger, braver, whole, er, those are the things that will allow you to be the amazing mother to your son that you already are. Because suffering has a way of depleting us. And you are not going to be able to love your son the way I know you want to love him if you're depleted. So do that and know that, that actually what you're going to figure out, I think by doing all that stuff is you can bear it. You can bear this pain. And that is love. The strength that you have when it comes to bearing this impossible situation is your love.
- [56:24]
Glennon Doyle
Damn. Woo wee.
- [56:29]
Abby Wambach
Do you think, Cheryl, when you're talking about finding ways to laugh, finding ways to be whole, do you get a lot of messages like this that are. The thing that she's not asking that I'm thinking is that old truism of you're only as happy as your least happy child. Is there something to it that's like, because of the way the universe is now, where my dearest one is suffering, I can only do my best to suffer because I don't have the right, the right to ever even try to be happy because that would be breaking the rules of the universe.
- [57:17]
Cheryl Strayed
I think that's real. And I also think I, I mean with my own kids, I have two teenagers and I, I think I've mentioned maybe to you guys before that, you know, it's been a, a hard couple of years and there are times that I have suffered tremendously because one of my kids is with suffering. And that thing you're describing, Amanda, where it's, it's almost like you think like the greatest act of love is to actually like have their, their nervous system inside your body and suffer for them, suffer in the ways that they are suffering. And what I've learned through this, this experience that I've been through is that that actually, that weakens me and then I can't actually be the mother, the strong, brave, whole mother that I need to be to help my kid who is struggling. And again, you know, sometimes I think this is why right away when I started writing Dear Sugar, I was like, you know, I'm not like a self help person. I do sometimes think that sometimes these messages we get, like, just remember gratitude or you know, all these, that really kind of glib and false and not really validate the true suffering involved. And, and the truth is, Erica, that like, nobody is going to save you from this. That this is one of the most painful things that a human can ever endure and you have to endure it.
- [58:43]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [58:44]
Cheryl Strayed
So then when, when you just simply accept that, that like no magic bunny is going to come along and hippity hop and. And then everything is going to be happy and you're going to feel good about this. You're never going to feel good if your son is an addict and struggling with depression. You're just not. Okay. But you can feel better in your suffering if you remember to learn how to be strong and learn how to be brave and to take care of yourself in those radically deep, simple, complicated daily ways that keep you, you know, on your two feet. Yeah.
- [59:19]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah. That's why we listen to Dear Sugar. My gosh, she tells the truth. Can we please hear from Miranda?
- [59:28]
Cheryl Strayed
Hi, my name is Miranda. I started to think about what in my life is the most stressful and what controls me the most, and it's money. I know it's not always the most like, socially acceptable thing to talk about and it can be kind of taboo, but like, I don't even care about the money, like the figures. I just want to know how to not let it have so much control over my mood and my mental state. That might be too much to ask. Bye. Oh, money. Miranda, I love this question and I first want to validate. You know, money is absolutely stressful, especially if you don't have enough or as much as you think you need. I know this. I grew up poor. Every year of my childhood I lived under the poverty line and I got Medicaid and food stamps and free government cheese and powdered milk. And on occasion, my family visited food shelves. I got to go to these places at Christmas and pick out a free Christmas gift. I know what it is like to live with that stress of money. And I also witnessed that very much with my mom, who was a single mom, three kids, and saw the toll it took on her. And I will say it's exhausting. And it's all you say it occupies your Mind. But the advice I want to give to you, and I love that your question, Miranda, is not about money itself. It's not about like, how to earn more money or how to get out of debt or what do I know all of those things. It's actually about your mindset when it comes to stress, and it happens to be stress connected to money, but it could be stress about something else. But, but what I wanted to say is something that I really absorbed in addition to absorbing the hardships I just described to you of my youth and, and into my adult life, I should say, is that, that so much of our ability to handle the stress when it comes to money is to make mindful decisions about money's meaning in our lives and the ways that money defines who we are and what we feel. The thing that my mother would always say when I was a kid and complaining about like wanting something that we couldn't have or being without is she would say, we, we aren't poor because we're rich in love. And what I thought at the time as a kid was, you know, just, that was ridiculous. And I rolled my, my eyes at my mom. But I, what I realized later is that she raised me and my siblings with a theory of abundance rather than scarcity. So at every turn, when I would say, I want this, like my whole life, for example, wanted brand name jeans. I wanted Levi's and lead jeans. I'd never got them until I had my own job at 14 and bought them myself. I got jeans from like Kmart that had no brand, right? And she would say, we aren't poor because we're rich in love. Abundance over scarcity. Abundance over scarcity. When I became an adult, I started to really think about, like, what does that mean? And I think that part of what it means, and I think this, this, this thing applies to, to stress in every part of our life is that we become conscious about, like, those received thoughts we have. It's like, okay, I'm, I'm, I need more money. And so therefore I feel stressed out and I feel controlled by it. What if you take a brass, Miranda, and say, okay, I, I feel acutely right now, the things I don't have because of money. What are the things that I do have? And here we are again in that kind of, oh, you know, just be grateful for everything and you're going to feel better. But you know what? You actually will.
- [63:06]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah, you actually will, you actually will.
- [63:09]
Cheryl Strayed
Feel better if you can say, I am rich in these things. And I think that that can be such a profound shift about so many aspects of our lives. It can liberate us to make choices that actually lead to our thriving that is beyond, you know, money. An example of this. One of my favorite questions I get when people talk to me about Wild. So in Wild, I write about hiking on the Pacific Crest Trail. And I also write about how I had no money. Okay? I very often was hiking with, like, you know, 35 cents in my pocket. When I finished my hike on the trail, I literally had 20 cents. I didn't have any credit cards. I had student loan debt that I paid off on my 44th birthday only 10 years ago. And I just was walking along for literally 1100 miles for 94 days. I'd have a $20 bill in each resupply box. And then when I spent it, it was gone. That's how much money I had. And people will say to me, how could you have hiked the Pacific Crest Trail if you didn't have enough money? And I always say, but you see, I did. I did have enough money. I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail. If I didn't have enough money, I couldn't have done it.
- [64:22]
Amanda Doyle
Still be there.
- [64:23]
Cheryl Strayed
That's right. And what this is about is that shifting, that thinking, what is enough? You know, am I going to let money be the thing that stops me from going on an epic journey? Am I going to let fear be the thing that stops me from going on this epic journey? The answer was no and no. And this is about the very thing you're asking about, Miranda, which isn't about how much money do I have and how much do I need to be happy. It's how do I change the way I think of the power it has over me? The way you do it is you take the power back. You say, I am the captain of this ship and these are the things I'm going to remember and think about and feel and allow to have a place in my mind on this day. And it doesn't mean you'll never feel stressed about money again, Trust me. I mean, I have spent most of my life stressed about money. But I can say that to make that mental shift will make all the difference in the world in the way.
- [65:25]
Glennon Doyle
You feel about it.
- [65:28]
Amanda Doyle
Cheryl Strayed I love that every time we talk, we always end up coming back in the end to something that your mom taught you. Every damn time. Every time.
- [65:38]
Cheryl Strayed
It's true. It's true. Isn't that funny? Put yourself in the way of beauty, that we aren't poor because we're rich in love. I think that that's really powerful stuff, right? The mom medicine that I received.
- [65:51]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah, yeah. And it's all over. It's all over. The show. I mean, the.
- [65:56]
Cheryl Strayed
Oh, my gosh, the show. It's all over.
- [65:57]
Amanda Doyle
It's all over.
- [65:58]
Cheryl Strayed
Mothers and daughters and love and all of that.
- [66:02]
Amanda Doyle
We love you, your mom, and you and your heart, and your work just makes the world feel more connected and braver.
- [66:09]
Cheryl Strayed
Oh, yeah.
- [66:10]
Amanda Doyle
So thank you, Cheryl.
- [66:12]
Cheryl Strayed
Thank you. I can't express my gratitude enough because I. I really think the. The work that the three of you are doing with this podcast is tremendously healing and powerful. I. I listen to it. I'm a huge fan, as you know. I'm gonna. I'm gonna make you call me Glennon and start talking to me. You know, I hear from so many people all the time about this podcast, and I just hope you know what important work you're all doing by having these conversations. And so thank you so much for inviting me onto your show. And thank you for watching my show, Tiny Beautiful Things.
- [66:49]
Amanda Doyle
Thanks, Cheryl.
- [66:50]
Cheryl Strayed
I always love talking to you. Hey, and anytime you need Dear Sugar, back on the show, I am here for you. Yes.
- [66:55]
Amanda Doyle
You heard it here.
- [66:56]
Glennon Doyle
I love these episodes so much. I'm sitting here, I'm, like, taking notes. I'm like, damn, that was really good.
- [67:01]
Amanda Doyle
She's gonna go back to all her exes and re. Break up with them and tell them the damn truth this time.
- [67:06]
Cheryl Strayed
Abby's gotta break up the right way this time.
- [67:08]
Glennon Doyle
That's right.
- [67:10]
Abby Wambach
I think they've blocked her number, so probably.
- [67:12]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah, it's done.
- [67:13]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah. Because you did it so badly.
- [67:15]
Amanda Doyle
That's right.
- [67:16]
Glennon Doyle
That's right.
- [67:17]
Amanda Doyle
Thank you, Cheryl.
- [67:18]
Glennon Doyle
Thanks, Cheryl.
- [67:21]
Cheryl Strayed
Bye. Keep walking or running. As the case.
- [67:26]
Amanda Doyle
5 squad.
- [67:28]
Glennon Doyle
We'll see you next time.
- [67:29]
Amanda Doyle
I love when Cheryl Straight is here. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend. Friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.
- [68:42]
Abby Wambach
Sam.