← We Can Do Hard Things
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- [00:00]
Glennon Doyle
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- [00:52]
Abby Wambach
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- [02:04]
Amanda Doyle
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things Today. We have a very special to us, to Abby and me, and to a lot of the world.
- [02:13]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [02:14]
Amanda Doyle
Dr. Orna Goralnik. She is a psychoanalyst and writer who serves on the faculty of NYU Postdoc, National Institute for the Psychotherapies, the Stephen Mitchell center, and the editorial boards of Psychoanalytic Dialogues and Studies in Gender and Sexuality. Her writing centers on the intersection of psychoanalysis, dissociation and cultural studies. She has completed the filming of four seasons of the docu series Couples Therapy airing on Showtime.
- [02:44]
Abby Wambach
Oh my God, that's my favorite.
- [02:46]
Amanda Doyle
I know. Abby and I watch just wrapped. Wrapped. We love the show. We love the couples on the show and how they work things out or don't. And we truly are enamored with you. Oh yes, thank you. And I know that a lot of people have become enamored with you and it's a very interesting phenomenon. And I know that's not what you're most comfortable with. You're there to show the work.
- [03:18]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
True. Exactly.
- [03:19]
Amanda Doyle
True, true.
- [03:20]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yes.
- [03:20]
Amanda Doyle
But I. Before we start, I do need to tell you that Abby just found the things that I have googled about you. Okay. I have googled what kind of dog does Orna have? Does Orna take new clients? Where are Orna sweaters from? Where do I get Orna scarves? Articles about how Orna listens like that. And how is Orna so calm?
- [03:43]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
I'm speechless.
- [03:44]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah. Yeah. The calmness I would just love to start out with because it makes me think of this part of I read in my grandmother's Hands by Resma Manakem, where he says something like, they think they're coming to me for answers, but they really come to sit with someone who has a settled nervous system. Does that ring any bell with you?
- [04:16]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Rings many bells. D.W. winnicott talked about the containing environment. He talked about it more as sort of the maternal environment, the responsibility of the maternal environment to provide for the fussy infant, where if you provide a containing present environment for someone who's fussy, their nervous system will calm down. They'll have the space to make sense of their own experience. So in a certain way, I guess you could think of the analyst. The analyst's role as doing that. That's one of their roles, is to simply provide an environment in which the other person can sort out what's going on with them. My own. What you're calling my calmness, it's. It is the result of, like, many years in analysis myself.
- [05:16]
Amanda Doyle
Oh, that's interesting. The show, it takes these fussy people. We're all fussy. We're fussy as hell.
- [05:24]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yep, yep.
- [05:24]
Amanda Doyle
And then they sit and they wait in that little hallway, which is like the purgatory. The fussy purgatory.
- [05:30]
Abby Wambach
I love that place.
- [05:31]
Amanda Doyle
The canal. Right.
- [05:32]
Abby Wambach
What happens there?
- [05:33]
Amanda Doyle
The canal. And then they're birthed into your room. And the room, it's so. It's a womb. The pup and the little dog bed. And the colors in there and your soft sweaters.
- [05:49]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
I love this description.
- [05:51]
Amanda Doyle
It's so beautiful. I mean, and we feel it when we watch, right? It's like we finish our fussy day and our fussy arguments. And then when we turn it on, when we get to your room in the hallway, we're stressed. Cause they're still fussing. Yeah, those couples are still fussing. And that's why they have all those, like, in the hallway. They have the little puzzles so they can stop bitching at each other, and they can just focus on their puzzles. And then there's some magic that happens.
- [06:18]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yes.
- [06:18]
Amanda Doyle
In that room. So therapy can be expensive and hard to access, Right?
- [06:24]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yes.
- [06:25]
Amanda Doyle
Let's say you had several minutes with millions of people who are listening and would love to know what would love some of that womb in their own fussy houses. What would you say to them that might be most helpful to people trying to figure out how would you democratize therapy in a few minutes?
- [06:46]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Oh, that's a good one. First of all. Yes. Therapy, historically, it's been kind of an expensive thing that differentiates, that follows like a certain kind of class system in terms of who can and cannot have access. And hopefully that is changing. That's one of the objectives of our show, of the series. But it's also changing in the psychoanalytic world at large. People are more and more aware of needing to find ways to democratize therapy and a lot of really interesting initiatives going on in that respect. But if I had to try to put together some words that would serve as like a very preliminary kind of container about couples, I would say that it would be great for people to think of both the challenge and beauty of their couplehood as the challenge of dealing with otherness. Right. You don't. We don't connect to our partners to find ourselves. I mean, what's the point? That's not interesting. There's no growth in that. There's nothing new in that. There's nothing to be had by just having a relationship just with oneself. That's just narcissism, which, you know, leads nowhere. So this thing that we do, which is that we reach out towards the world and fall in love and want to connect with someone else, means we are inviting otherness into our lives. And that is important. That is like the thorn that will make you grow, that will make you heal and go beyond yourself. So that's the journey. The journey is to negotiate otherness. And in the crisis that always gets created between a couple, it's always ultimately a crisis about otherness. How do you deal with the fact that your partner is different from you? So it's what you need and it's what you will struggle with. It's. In a way, you could think of the fact that you're. You could imagine it, that you're creating your own mini political system. So what kind of political system do you believe in? What are your ethics about difference? And try to have that guide you.
- [09:12]
Amanda Doyle
Holy shit, that's interesting. So we need to become more political System less evangelists for our own way.
- [09:22]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Love it. Exactly. Yes.
- [09:26]
Glennon Doyle
And isn't that interesting? Because when you think about the otherness, it either leads to this pattern of kind of righteous I am correct and you are wrong blame cycle, or it leads to, I see that you are other and incorrect, and therefore I have married the wrong person.
- [09:54]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Well, those two are kind of the same way of thinking.
- [09:58]
Glennon Doyle
Right.
- [09:59]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
They're both. One is right, one is wrong, and you need to either squash difference or get rid of difference. But none of that involves opening up to difference and figuring out how do you live with difference. How do you live with both understanding who you are and who your partner is and figuring out a third way that will involve both.
- [10:25]
Amanda Doyle
Mm. A third way. We just need a Disney movie. We need a Disney movie where the princess meets her princess. Other princess.
- [10:34]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [10:35]
Amanda Doyle
And then says, now we negotiate our political system of otherness instead of, you complete me, happily ever after.
- [10:44]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Right.
- [10:44]
Amanda Doyle
She needs to sit down with Dr. Orna. Dr. Orna needs to come in after the wedding and sit down with Nico and negotiate the otherness.
- [10:53]
Abby Wambach
It's good.
- [10:53]
Amanda Doyle
Okay, go ahead. I think before the wedding, maybe. Before the wedding, yes.
- [10:59]
Glennon Doyle
What is the fear that underlies this issue of otherness? So I'm not necessarily mad because you do X and I do Y. I am deeply disturbed by this because I have some fear. Fear of what?
- [11:16]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
That is huge. That is a huge question. You can try to answer that question on many layers. I mean, some people say that we were kind of wired to understand the world by creating differences in our mind. Like, we have to create distinction to be able to even have any kind of thought. So there's some way that we always have to, like, separate what's this and what is it not. So what I am is not you. What you are is not me. So there's some way that it's kind of inherent. But then what is the fear? There could be all sorts of fears. And you could talk about, like, early childhood fears that get triggered. Like, what is the fear, if I depend will that other abandonment, if that one is other than me? Is there immediately the question of who is better? Is there immediately a question of hierarchies and power? If we're different, who's on top, who's exploiting who? Is there a fear of the person's otherness means I'm not entitled to exist? There are many ways that you can imagine what this difference and what the fear brings up. And then there's the question of your life experiences and how you've Been indoctrinated to respond to difference. Right. If you're, if let's say the political system you grew up in invites dealing with difference by way of oppression, then that's what you think. Other oppress. If you're growing up in a society in which otherness is like, you seek to harmonize, then you'll have a very different kind of reaction to otherness. It's actually a great question, like to try to answer it like in a, in a deep way, like, what is the existential fear that otherness brings up? Because you know that underlies, like racism, it underlines, underlies homophobia. Every kind of difference obviously can. Is a riddle. Like, how are you going to respond to that? Mm.
- [13:26]
Amanda Doyle
What is the fear of otherness? Dang. Start with a big doozy.
- [13:32]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, I mean, I think it's also interesting the way you're talking about it from a political system and otherness. And I think especially in the last few years, we have experienced a huge polarization and many people are experiencing it in their own homes. And even if they're not politically polarized with their partners. One thing I love about your work is you honor feminist theory within your psychoanalysis. So there's this whole idea of an awareness of the political reality within the realities of our relationships. And so what have you seen that's a major otherness? If you're in like I am a opposite sex marriage and you're having a very different experience of the last four years just by nature of who you are than I have had. I have noticed myself these resentments, these kind of the anger that I have to experience being a second class citizen in this country. And you never will. And therefore you cannot understand me. You are so other.
- [14:44]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yeah.
- [14:45]
Glennon Doyle
Have you seen that more in the last.
- [14:48]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Absolutely, yes, absolutely. I mean, first of all, what's happening now in the States? I mean, it's not only happening in the states states, it's happening in Europe, it's happening in Israel, it's happening across the world. It's like a disease. But this business of more and more extreme polarization and we can see it between Democrats and Republicans, red and blue. But when that is the way of thinking that has marked our time, then it will make its way, of course, into gender dynamics. It will make its way into the smallest difference around, like how to load the dishwasher. When people are in the mindset of what I would call splitting. And I'll explain what I mean, it goes everywhere. It goes in relationships between parent and children. It's really A disease. And what I mean by splitting. And that goes to this question of difference and response to differences. This British analyst, Melanie Klein, I mean, many years ago, really emphasized this primary defense that we all come into the world with or start our life with, which is this trying to distinguish good from bad. Internally, there are things that feel good and things that feel bad. There's the breast that is giving milk, and then the empty breast that is keeping the baby hungry. Those differences between good and bad are very important. We need to preserve the good inside us and then project the bad outside of us. It's a basic way of organizing an experience. With time and with the development of mind, one can integrate good and bad and say, oh, mom is both feeding and sometimes not there. Our partner is both this wonderful person that provides a lot of warmth and sometimes not available. And it's the same person. And the good feelings that get created in us, we are the same person that feels both love and hate. So the integration of this good and bad is developmentally where we want to be. So, going back to your question of, for example, gender differences and completely different ways of experiencing the world, ultimately what you want is for people to be able to understand that their inner experience of goodness and badness is the same. It's not the same, but it lives within the same container. When I work with couples on, for example, on gender differences, on how, let's say, patriarchy shapes their experience in the world, people come into the negotiation or into the conflict assuming that, for example, women assume that they are the only one suffering from patriarchy. Men suffer from patriarchy tremendously. They're robbed of so much by having to split and perform this kind of masculine role, and they have to, like, split off all that's within them that has to do with femininity, and it empties them out. Like any kind of splitting ultimately empties you out. Women suffer, too. Not only do they suffer the oppression of patriarchy, but they suffer of having to, like, split themselves off of all the goods that the whatever we want to imagine as masculinity is. So you want to bring people into the understanding, the deep, deeply felt understanding that we're everything and these splits are artificial. They rob us.
- [18:54]
Amanda Doyle
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- [19:56]
Glennon Doyle
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- [20:58]
Abby Wambach
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- [22:04]
Amanda Doyle
So is splitting playing a role then? Is splitting splitting like, I am a girl, so I act this way. You are a boy, so you act this way. I am a Christian, so I believe these things. You are a. Whatever. Is it, Is it identity roles?
- [22:18]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yeah. Yes. They're identity roles that, that force us to occupy certain aspects of ourselves and then dissociate from other aspects. Like disavow, lose touch with, push aside, and then feel compelled to see whatever we've pushed aside in the other and then try to control that other. Because it's really scary to constantly have to disavow stuff in yourself. So you gotta, like, see it in the other and then get a grip on that other control.
- [22:54]
Abby Wambach
Damn.
- [22:55]
Amanda Doyle
So a woman who has squashed her own ambition says to another woman, I just don't like the way something about her or a man who has hidden all of his femininity and homosexual whatever is the one who teases the other person about their gayness. Is this what we're saying?
- [23:14]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yeah. Wow.
- [23:15]
Glennon Doyle
Is that related to maybe in a couple where one person feels responsibility for the logistical business of running a family and so has to avow that because they feel obligated and then therefore squelch the human part. So the machine part is adopted, the human part, the sexual, the curious, the joyful is squashed. And therefore I'm resenting that in my partner.
- [23:45]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Exactly.
- [23:45]
Glennon Doyle
Because I have split.
- [23:46]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Exactly. Exactly. There was a couple like that on the show a couple of seasons ago, Michael and Michal. They were like such a classic example of that where one of them was like, you know, the hyper functional. All she could think of was like, how to get the family moving. And her husband was all about like, wait, what about fun? What about relaxing vacation? Like, hang out with the kids? And they were so split between them and she forgot she loves having a good time. Like, you know, my. What we call a paradoxical intervention with them was like, Michal, you have to take two hours a day and do nothing. Nothing, like play on your phone. You cannot be productive for two hours a day. And that was like a magical intervention because suddenly she was like, oh, actually I love doing that. And he was suddenly like, oh, my God, I've given up all these functional roles that I actually love doing too.
- [24:45]
Amanda Doyle
What is a paradoxical intervention. And how does a couple do one on themselves?
- [24:52]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
A paradoxical intervention, it comes from like the cognitive behavioral world, but it's when you instruct a person to do exactly the opposite of what you ultimately think is going to happen. So let's say if you want a person to take more responsibility for finances, you paradoxically instruct them to spend as much money as possible with the idea that you're then kind of, you're scrambling the system and other things kind of get evoked in them. You break them out of certain patterns and in a way you allow for the opposite to emerge. So how can a couple do that on themselves? For example, if you feel compelled to yell at your wife for putting her shoes in the wrong place, you feel compelled to do that. Instead of doing that every time you feel compelled to do that, go up and give her a hug, you're wonderful. Opposite game, the opposite game, the opposite.
- [26:04]
Glennon Doyle
Because then she doesn't have to put her shoes in the wrong place to punish you for withholding your love, for example.
- [26:13]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yeah, you're both suddenly released from something.
- [26:16]
Amanda Doyle
Hmm, that's so interesting. Do you feel that the new or un. New version of toxic masculinity is passivity? Because I'm just, I do feel that way. I'm just. I think we're all looking for toxicity in the wrong place. I don't think it's. It's too obvious. It has morphed from the yelling and the screaming.
- [26:47]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
So, okay, a non friendly way of describing that is as toxic. That passivity is another way of asserting a certain kind of dominance. It's toxic in its own way. I encourage myself not to split and to try to understand all sides. So I've given a lot of thought to this like, kind of new form of masculinity that is indeed, on the face of it, defined by passivity. And lots of things are happening, I think, in gender politics and in the distribution of roles. But one thing that is happening is it's pretty confusing to be a man, an aware man. In today's world, the coordinates of what makes you perform your gender well have been scrambled. Society is no longer asking of men simply to be a breadwinner or simply to be dominant and clueless about anything else. A major defining role has been removed. On the other hand, there's still all sorts of very powerful fantasies, phallic fantasies, fantasies of what masculinity is. And I think it gets really confusing when on one hand there's this great pressure to perform some kind of Masculinity, on the other hand, the clear coordinate of what that is have been devalued. Women are making more money than men. They're taking on positions. I mean, there's no longer an expectation that women will just subserve and take a secondary role. So how is a man to perform masculinity? What are they supposed to do? It'll take a few generations to socialize men to actually find other ways to bring themselves into society and be valuable, like to connect with other parts of themselves. So they're left with a kind of a vacuum while there's still a great deal of pressure to perform something. And I think men are confused and paralyzed. I mean, this is a great generalization. I mean, they're sure, of course, yeah, but, but that's what I think of this passive situation.
- [29:16]
Abby Wambach
I can feel myself understanding passivity in this way because it's like the structure of being dominant, being the breadwinner is very clear. And now when you, when you take that away and then you're left in this other pot of like I have, I could decide all of these other options. It's scary. It's like, wait, where do I even fucking begin?
- [29:38]
Amanda Doyle
Well, you begin by like picking the kids up from school. So one of the. You're not like me with what I just did. I just split?
- [29:46]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:47]
Amanda Doyle
Is that why you're such a good listener? Are you always avoiding splitting? Because sometimes when I watch you do the show and I think, clearly she's gonna tell that guy that he's a jackass. Like, clearly that's the next thing to do. And you just have this way of double down, get deeper, deeper, deeper. And you. Is that what you're doing? You're resisting judgment? What are you doing?
- [30:14]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
That's a good question. I think after so much analytic training and work, I think there is kind of a big, almost like already now a built in suspicion of splitting. I don't believe it anymore. I mean, when I find myself splitting, you know, I can listen to the news and I bet, you know, monsters. And then I'm like, come on, you know, better try to understand what's, what are their fears? Where are they coming from? What's motivating that side? And there's also something else that helps, which is that when I sit with couples, my patient, the unit that I'm treating is the couple. So I see each of them as each of the participants. I see them as just a part of a whole. And what I'm trying to listen to is what's happening in the system, not what's. I mean, sometimes I kind of take a pause from that and I dig into each person's individual history and go in there, but. But then I kind of zoom back out and I'm like, okay, but how is this part of the system as a whole? Is this system thriving or is the system stuck? And how do I help the system.
- [31:32]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah, keep growing.
- [31:35]
Glennon Doyle
Can you talk a little bit about what commonly used in your work as proxies for bigger issues? If there's all of this confused dynamics in a relationships, what are the things that we go to to give that meaning? Like, we fight about sex, we fight about money. What are those things? And then what are they representing that are bigger?
- [32:05]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yeah. I understand obviously different things. Therapists will listen in on different interpretive paradigms. But I can tell you that for me, there are a few layers that I listen for and assume underlie certain fights about sex, money, dishwasher. There's the one of, I mean, I guess to me might seem obvious, maybe it's not obvious to listeners, but which is childhood histories. Like, how are each one in the couple reenacting childhood issues, whether it's traumas or unresolved dilemmas or patterns or unresolved attachment questions, riddles. How are they reenacting it with their partner to try to figure something out for themselves? That's one layer that I go to. Then there's the layer of, if you want to go even beyond that, what are intergenerational stuff that couples are trying to resolve between them? Maurice Apres is a wonderful analyst and writer, talks about these intergenerational errands that are passed down that still need to be resolved. So that's something that I keep in mind. That's why some family therapists start any kind of family therapy with these elaborate genograms where they go way back, several generations to understand what are the forces that are influencing the particular family unit.
- [33:50]
Amanda Doyle
Wow.
- [33:51]
Glennon Doyle
Can you give us an example of a. You called it a generational errand.
- [33:55]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Errand. Yes. Yes.
- [33:57]
Glennon Doyle
What is an example of one of the.
- [33:58]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
An example. This is a couple that we filmed a couple of seasons ago. They actually. They're not on the show yet, but hopefully they'll make it in. This is an African American couple. She was describing how she comes from many, many generations in which the men never stuck around, the women were always left alone to raise the family, to raise the kids, and a great deal of resentment that has been passed down intergenerationally. And with this particular partner that she had a wonderful, wonderful relationship with her current partner, but she did feel like there's a certain kind of debt that he owed her that is not between them. It's something that has been passed down from generations of women that have been abandoned. Now, of course, you cannot separate that from the larger history of, like, what it means to be black in America. And so it's not just intergenerational. It's of course, immediately tied to the socio political system in which these families grew up. I'm working now with a couple where one of the couples, he's like first generation Mexican American, and he's always been the translator for the parents. Like, he's the one that knew English. He's the translator. And the partner he chose is deaf.
- [35:37]
Amanda Doyle
Wow.
- [35:37]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
So he's working on the business of translating, bringing someone into current culture. So he's bringing the deaf into the hearing culture.
- [35:46]
Amanda Doyle
Wow.
- [35:47]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
It's kind of amazing and gorgeous to notice these kind of intergenerational transmissions of errands that people are tasked with and then they live out in their current relationships. And then there's the layer of power and sociopolitics that you want to listen in for. And it's always there between couples. Like, there's always some negotiation about class. There's always negotiation about gender. Even in gay relationships, there's negotiation about gender.
- [36:20]
Abby Wambach
Who gets the bugs? That's our negotiation in this family.
- [36:24]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Exactly. Yeah.
- [36:27]
Amanda Doyle
Wow.
- [36:29]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Those are the layers that I listen for myself.
- [36:32]
Amanda Doyle
Beautiful.
- [36:35]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Foreign.
- [36:41]
Glennon Doyle
This podcast is brought to you by Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues. It's that time of year again. The flowers are blooming and birds are chirping. And also that time when allergies can test you and show up when you least expect. But with Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues, you can be ready to face them. Whether it's sneezes or watery eyes. You don't want to be caught without a tissue on hand to help. Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues are gentle on eyes and noses. They're for all the moments at home and on the go that allergies can disrupt this allergy season. Be better prepared with Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues, which are allergist approved so you can go on with your day. Life and allergies can both be unpredictable, but you can be prepared for that time of year by making sure you've always got Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues ready for whatever happens next. Grab Kleenex.
- [37:32]
Amanda Doyle
I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life changing difference. That's why I think ALMA is so cool. Alma connects you with real therapists who understand your unique experience. You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships or anything else. And what stands out to me about ALMA is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through ALMA say their therapist made them feel seen and heard. You know, I love that that level of connection isn't something you can get from scrolling through online advice or following social media. It's about finding someone who truly understands your journey and is dedicated to helping you make progress better with people, better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com hardthings to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's hello a l m a.com hardthings when you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, like Aloe, Allbirds or Skims. Sure you think about a great product, a cool brand and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making, selling and for shoppers, buying. Simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home.
- [39:02]
Glennon Doyle
Of the number one checkout on the planet.
- [39:04]
Amanda Doyle
And the not so secret secret with.
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Abby Wambach
Shop pay that boosts conversions up to.
- [39:07]
Amanda Doyle
50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going.
- [39:13]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
So if you're into growing your business.
- [39:15]
Abby Wambach
Your commerce platform better be ready to.
- [39:17]
Amanda Doyle
Sell whenever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between.
- [39:23]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Upgrade your business and get the same.
- [39:26]
Amanda Doyle
Checkout experience as business powerhouses like Aloe, Allbirds and Skims. Sign up for your $1 per month.
- [39:33]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Trial period at shopify.com Odyssey podcast all lowercase go to shopify.com Odyssey podcast to.
- [39:41]
Amanda Doyle
Upgrade your selling today.
- [39:42]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Shopify.com Odysseypodcast.
- [39:50]
Amanda Doyle
Would it be okay with you if we played some questions from our POD squad that they sent in for you?
- [39:57]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Sure.
- [39:57]
Amanda Doyle
Wonderful. Okay, let's hear the first one.
- [40:00]
Abby Wambach
I could just listen to her talk.
- [40:01]
E
All the My question for you today is what is the difference between a want and a need in a relationship? And how does that play out if we don't get a need met? If you don't get a want met, does that become a need or vice versa? And then if I don't get my needs met, do I even want my partner anymore? This is all very confusing. And as someone who's highly codependent, how do I separate the two?
- [40:30]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Interesting. There's this thing in the zeitgeist in culture now, which is this, like, want versus need. It seems to be like something that's out there in the world. I'd have to think about what is it that people are trying to figure out by making that distinction? It's not a distinction that I use, the distinction between want and need, but I think it's a question of which comes up between couples of legitimacy. Like, what is a legitimate ask?
- [41:11]
Amanda Doyle
Yes.
- [41:11]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
And what is not.
- [41:14]
Glennon Doyle
What do I have a right to be mad about versus what am I supposed to just accept as normal?
- [41:22]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yeah, that's a very good question. And it's always going to be there. I don't think it's something that you can simply resolve within yourself. Because we're full of wishes and wants and desires and needs, and that's our humanity. I think it's a question that should be figured out intersubjectively. Like, in a certain context, a certain need becomes a want because you're asking for something that is exactly very difficult for your partner to offer. And in another environment or with another dynamic between a couple, something that might feel like a desperate need suddenly becomes a very easy want. It really depends on the dynamic and the contours of each person. So I don't think it's a simple question of like, oh, is my need or my want legitimate? Should I work on it on my own or not? I think it depends on who your partner is. What are their. I'm thinking, for example, a very classic thing. Or like, if your partner is, let's say, somewhat like neuro. Atypical, like they're somewhat on the spectrum and they don't exactly use the language of affect of emotion the way you do. It's much more confusing for them in those situations. The ask for a certain kind of like verbal empathy, which is like a very basic wish, ask, need. For some people, that's like, what are you talking about? I don't know how to do that. It's like milk from a rock. And it's not because they're withholding. It's not because a power dynamic. It's just like they're not wired that way. It's like a very complicated ask for them. So in that situation, what would be like in another context, a very legitimate wish. It's a more complicated one. So what do you do with that? You have to think of it intersubjectively. On the other hand, in other couples it can be someone who's very capable of being empathic and verbally available. But because of a certain Dynamic that got created. I don't know. Too much criticism, power, this, that, or the other. You know, the fountain is closed. And then it's a very different kind of conversation.
- [43:56]
Glennon Doyle
I'm wondering what the third way is in this question because she's saying, do I need to change my needs or do I need to change my partner? What is the third way for her to be thinking about this as opposed to those two?
- [44:11]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Right. I'm going to operate with the goodwill assumption that change the partner is not really the third way. Sometimes it is. But let's start from how do we work it out? First of all, trying to figure out between two people what is going on here. Is what you're asking really something that your partner is. It's just not in their making. They're not made that way. That's a very difficult ask from them. Think of it of like asking someone who wears glasses to take off their glasses and see better without glasses. It's just kind of possibly the wrong ask. In which case, the third way is how do you figure out the thing you need and not bring it to your partner, but take it somewhere else? How do you see your partner for who they are? And what can you focus on in what's going on between you and your partner? That is kind of an open channel and an ask that will be. That will bring a lot of good exchange between the two of you. Rather than ask your partner to take off their glasses and see, talk to them about, like, you know, listen to music together. What are. What are good places in which you exchange goods between you.
- [45:31]
Amanda Doyle
There's some kind of connotation about need and want to. I don't know what this means, but I noticed in my yoga class recently that every time the yoga teacher says, use these blocks to the class, use these blocks if you need them. Nobody uses the blocks, but if she says, use the blocks if you want them.
- [45:51]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Interesting.
- [45:51]
Amanda Doyle
So many people use the blocks.
- [45:55]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Meaning people don't want to feel like they need. Yes.
- [45:59]
Amanda Doyle
I think if she says need, everybody thinks, oh, I don't want to. I don't. I don't want to be the one who needs. I'm not weak.
- [46:06]
Glennon Doyle
I should be able to do without this.
- [46:08]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yes.
- [46:08]
Glennon Doyle
Or which is what this lady is saying in her question, I should. What can I do without so that I don't.
- [46:15]
Amanda Doyle
That's what I just like. That's why I just like the want. Like, why not just use the want all the time? It feels like there's a lot of agency in it.
- [46:25]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Maybe what you're all talking about is how certain. I don't know what word to use. Needs, wants, certain kind of wishes, to use a neutral word, evoke in people a sense of deficiency.
- [46:41]
Amanda Doyle
That's right. Yes.
- [46:42]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
And they. They need to kind of work around that rather than sit in that and understand, like, have, you know, understanding, compassion. Like, have a way to sit with that feeling of deficiency without, like, getting worked up, feeling like they're demanding or asking for too much. Like, sit with themselves with what's going on there before it becomes an intersubjective issue.
- [47:11]
Abby Wambach
And talking about women and the deficiency that. That we have all felt along the whole of our lives to not even have the ability to consider wishes.
- [47:22]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [47:23]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Right.
- [47:23]
Abby Wambach
And so I think having to work on this stuff to pull it up for ourselves, I mean, it's like that. That scene in the Notebook, like, what do you want?
- [47:32]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Right.
- [47:32]
Abby Wambach
Like. And I think that it's hard for so many of us to really nail that down and to then give that away and have to expect that your partner is going to give you for this marriage or this relationship to work there. Feels like you're. It's vulnerability. All of the things.
- [47:50]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yeah. And to talk about it in terms of gender, it's, again, going back to the idea of splitting. I mean, all that has to do with vulnerability. Need has been split and kind of dumped into the feminine. So there's just, like, so much shame around that. Yeah.
- [48:16]
Amanda Doyle
Yep. Let's hear from Keaton.
- [48:19]
E
I'm Keaton, and I have a silly little question for you. Long story short, how do you tell someone that you love so deeply that they are annoying? I have a boyfriend of about five years who gets so very interested in niche topics and loves to share what he's learned with me, which I love, but my word, can he go on and on. It just so happens that he picks the moments where I'm. If I'm doing the dishes or making the bed or I'm actively involved in something and he will just talk at me, but it's like I don't. I don't need to be there. Like, I could just. He just wants to get this information that he's so excited out. So am I. The problem. Is it my issue that my brain and ears, like, grow legs and run away from the situation when he starts telling me about a new political issue that he's discovered? I love him so much. I don't want to hurt him, but sometimes I just have to say I don't want to be talked at right now. Give me any advice you have or just tell me I'm the problem and shut up. Love you so much.
- [49:35]
Abby Wambach
Oh, Keaton, Glennon is feeling your pain right now. This is. I am your husband, big time.
- [49:41]
Amanda Doyle
I just want to tell you, yesterday, and I don't even know if you know this, yesterday we went on a three and a half mile walk. Okay. I tried an experiment where I thought, I'm going to just respond in grunts or one word answers and see if she even notices that I'm not wanting to have miles two conversation. It doesn't matter.
- [50:03]
Abby Wambach
Mile two, it doesn't matter.
- [50:04]
Amanda Doyle
She talked for an hour and 10 minutes at me and never picked up on the fact that I just.
- [50:10]
Abby Wambach
Mile two. I picked up, but you kept going. I didn't.
- [50:13]
Amanda Doyle
You did. You said, I'm going to stop talking. And then five minutes later you said.
- [50:15]
Abby Wambach
I walked ahead of you.
- [50:16]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
I left ahead.
- [50:17]
Amanda Doyle
Okay. Anyway, let's talk about Keaton.
- [50:21]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
I love it. First of all, I appreciate the impulse to be kind.
- [50:30]
Amanda Doyle
Yes, that's great.
- [50:33]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
That's great. And I guess to some degree we're talking about, like, self absorption versus relatedness. We have this concept in the analytic world. You're probably familiar with the concept of transference. There's also the concept of countertransference, which is what the analyst feels, what their experience is while sitting with their patient. We consider countertransference a very important source of information. If you're feeling one way or another with your partner, you might be struggling with something with the feeling like, let's say, boredom or I want to run away. But you also have really important information for your partner in that feeling. And the question is, how do you artfully and kindly use that information to see, to send back feedback to your partner? If one of you is self absorbed or talking on and on and not reading cues, that's important information. I think you'd want to know that you're doing that. I mean, you can still choose to keep doing that, but it's important information. So rather than run away, find the right time to. And the artful way to translate your experience into information for your partner. Like when you go on and on, I feel irrelevant. I feel like I'm not in the picture. I'm not exactly sure what to do with myself. What's going on between us in those moments.
- [52:23]
Amanda Doyle
That is interesting because that's what it is. It's not like you're annoying. That's not what I'm thinking. I'm thinking, why isn't she noticing that? I'M not wanting this. And I actually think she is noticing, which I was right about.
- [52:39]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Right.
- [52:40]
Amanda Doyle
You are noticing. It's just not as important as you continuing the thing.
- [52:44]
Abby Wambach
Well, when I noticed. Even though you don't believe that I didn't stop talking. When I noticed, I made adjustments.
- [52:54]
Amanda Doyle
Okay, great.
- [52:55]
Glennon Doyle
But isn't there another step to that, too, Doctor? Because so let's just say, theoretically, Abby's going on and on. Glennon is not present in it, and Glennon is thinking, why is Abby not noticing that I do not exist in this moment, and therefore my existence is not important to her in this moment? But then when Abby feels that Abby might be thinking, why, when I share, does Glennon disappear? And why is she not in it with me?
- [53:28]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Exactly. First of all, there are a lot of assumptions already there, but you want to translate that into a question for the two of you? Like, what is going on? I'm feeling like Lennon, you can say, I'm feeling like I don't exist. I don't know if that's what's going on, but I feel like I'm not existing in this moment for you. You're caught in your own story. And Abby, you might say, well, you're not sending me enough cues. I don't actually know where you are with this, and maybe I am lost in my own mind, and I'm kind of using you as a vessel. But the truth of the matter is, you're not giving me enough cues. So if you responded, I'd know who my audience is, and I'd adjust better. You've already left the scene.
- [54:16]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [54:17]
Abby Wambach
And I would. Just like a heads up, we were going on a walk, which is where we do a lot of our talking about. Right. That's totally true, what we do on the show. So I thought, you know, I was like, here we go. We're gonna. We're gonna, you know, creatively brainstorm about future episodes. And so I'm just talking about whatever comes into my mind, and she's not responding.
- [54:35]
Amanda Doyle
And you're right. And I could have said, babe, I just need some time, but instead, I'm stewing, like, why isn't she noticing? Why isn't she noticing? When I could have just said, hey, let's just. I just need some quiet.
- [54:46]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Sure.
- [54:46]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, that would help.
- [54:48]
Amanda Doyle
Okay. How about Jo?
- [54:49]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Thanks, Keaton.
- [54:50]
Abby Wambach
Sorry that we stole your question.
- [54:51]
Amanda Doyle
Sorry, Keaton. We had some issues.
- [54:54]
E
Hi, this is Jo. I am 28 years old, and I've been married for five years. And I'm struggling because before I got Married. I completely fell in love with someone else and my current husband, his a great guy. We have a great relationship. We had a great relationship before I fell in love with someone else. But we were in a very strong conservative environment, Christian environment and marriage was just the obvious great next steps for us. And this other person came into my life and I completely fell in love with them. And my husband knows about all of this and that person is no longer in my life. But five years later we have two kids and I'm still struggling with the feelings of love and the feelings of loss and the feelings of grief from that relationship and feeling like I discovered more and real love after finding my first love. If that makes any sense. Yeah, basically my question is how do you move on? Why it's so fucking hard.
- [56:04]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Thanks.
- [56:05]
E
Appreciate it.
- [56:07]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Difficult, painful. Obviously there's no easy answer to this. I can just think out loud and if I was in conversation with this person, I would want to first of all try to distinguish between. Is this a question of courage, the courage to leave what I guess sounds like more of a communal self, a self that is consistent with the community you grew up in, your Christian environment, family. Is it a question of like the courage to abandon that part of oneself to go for, you know, I don't know, true love or passion or excitement. Is it that kind of choice or is a more useful way to think about it that this other entity, this like true love entity that remains there, Is it in a way almost like a stand in, like a symbol for the thing that the fantasy of the thing, the fantasy of perfection or the fantasy of going back to the womb or the going back to childhood or going back to the country you came from. People have all these fantasies of where it could have, should have been better and where real life is and not dealing with current life and the reality of our very difficult lives that we actually live. So is this true love kind of a really a fantasy that one refuses to let go of that serves the function of always drawing this person away from life as it is?
- [57:57]
Abby Wambach
Wow.
- [57:59]
Amanda Doyle
Let's hear from Ashley.
- [58:01]
E
Hi, I'm Ashley and I'm wondering how to know when you've lost yourself in a relationship. So I have been in a relationship for over a year now and it's has been one of the best things. One of I've just learned so much. It's been so loving and fun. But I'm also thinking that I might be losing myself in the relationship. For example, last night my partner told me that he had like done an Activity with friends. And we had planned to do that activity together. And it just like, really hurt my feelings. I felt jealous of his friends. I felt jealous that he did that. I felt jealous that maybe I don't have as many friends as I used to or like, really any at all, if I'm going to be honest. And I don't have someone to go do that with besides him. So I think that's probably a sign that I'm lost in the relationship. But I guess what are the signs that you're lost in a relationship? What can you do to get out of that?
- [59:07]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Interesting. Sounds like this person is already doing a lot of the work.
- [59:13]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [59:16]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
So keep doing that work. And I guess the work is a strong feeling comes up and often the indicator that there's something to investigate is the feeling of blame. And then rather than indeed just go after the person, like turning it back to herself and asking what's going on for me, what am I feeling? Okay. I'm feeling jealous of what he's doing. How do I turn that question back towards myself and ask myself what's missing in me? Often this lost in the relationship symptom is some way that some question that should be turned to the self is interpersonalized. It's put into the relationship. Like your partner is supposed to fulfill something or answer something that you're not doing the work of answering to yourself. And sounds like this person is already doing that work. So great. It's a good example of what it means to try not to get lost in a relationship.
- [60:26]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. It's like the fact that she's asking this question means that she's doing the work and that maybe she's a little less lost than she thinks.
- [60:33]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yeah.
- [60:33]
Glennon Doyle
It's interesting that both this one and the one prior where we talked about wants and needs. It's like part of the answer may mean that we're searching for something within the relationship that we can access and maybe only can access outside of the relationship. And that that's not a deficiency. That's just the way we were made.
- [60:56]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yes.
- [60:57]
Abby Wambach
Or inside of ourselves. Access inside of ourselves as well.
- [61:00]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yeah. Right. There's an inclination to what I call interpersonalize certain issues to turn it into a relationship issue. When it's not.
- [61:12]
Abby Wambach
It's something else interpersonalized. That's good.
- [61:16]
Amanda Doyle
Can we hear from Caitlin?
- [61:18]
E
Hi, this is Caitlin. Please. Can we talk about sleeping with our romantic partner? I've been with my boyfriend for two years to date. I have never been able to successfully sleep in the same bed. As him, our sleeping habits are different. He's a heavy sleeper, I'm a light sleeper, he snores, I don't. The sound of a bird will wake me up and he could sleep through a hurricane. I feel the weight of expectation to just do the thing, Be unconscious on the same piece of furniture for a whole eight hours and I cannot do it. It's causing deep anxiety, stress and humiliation and shame in my 30 something life. He sees this as an act of love and connection. The harder I try to sleep in the same bed to meet his need, the more unlikely it is that I sleep. So I want to know who ever decided that this was a thing and do you have any advice? Thanks.
- [62:12]
Glennon Doyle
Good for you.
- [62:13]
Amanda Doyle
Thank you, Caitlyn.
- [62:14]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Good.
- [62:15]
Amanda Doyle
Let's hear it.
- [62:16]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Yeah, it's a great. I love the way she's phrasing the question.
- [62:21]
Glennon Doyle
This is good to be unconscious on the same piece of furniture for eight hours. How did that become a symbol of love?
- [62:28]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
How does that become a thing? Yep, that's great. So I'm again just going to think out loud. This is no, there's no cookie cutter answer to something like that. But I would pursue two different questions, two different ways of thinking about this. I mean, one would be, yeah, whoever decided that's a thing? There's plenty of ways to live life and not everyone needs to live in this. Kind of put it all in one box, all in one bedroom, all in one apartment. Plenty of people choose to be in a romantic relationship and not live together, not sleep together, give a lot of space. People have different needs in terms of how much together and measurement they need and how much space they need. I'm like, figure it out. There's not one way to live life that's on one hand. So whoever decided that's a thing is a very good question. Doesn't have to be a thing. But I'm also thinking, you know, sleeping, being unconscious on a piece of furniture is a time when we are indeed very vulnerable. Yes. And trusting. Right. And, and you might want to ask yourself what is scary about that? What is your unconscious telling you about what could happen to you if you let loose and fall asleep in the presence of another person? What are the dreads that come up around that? What is the kind of mixing up that sleeping together threatens? I wouldn't take it as simply like being very sensitive as far as hearing, although who knows, maybe that person is like a highly sensory person, but maybe there's more to it. Maybe that unconscious has something to say.
- [64:28]
Amanda Doyle
Fascinating. We always End with a teeny segment called the Next Right Thing, which is just one little thing that if people don't try anything else that they can do. And even though it's called we can do hard things, we like for this to be an easy thing. Is there some way to operationalize the embracing of otherness? Like, what does that look like or sound like in a relationship? Because it sounds like that's the main thing that we have to forget the complete me and celebrate the otherness that relationships insist we celebrate.
- [65:06]
Glennon Doyle
How do we do that?
- [65:08]
Amanda Doyle
What do we say? What do we stop doing? What do we do today?
- [65:14]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
That's a good one. How would I operationalize it? In a nugget, maybe? Challenge yourself to think of the thing about your partner that is the most disturbing to you, that brings you the most agita to try to imagine it as the thorn from which the most growth can happen.
- [65:45]
Amanda Doyle
I believe that shit. That's good. We love you, Dr. Orna. After this, can you send me an email about where you get your sweaters and scarves?
- [65:57]
Abby Wambach
And are you taking new clients?
- [65:59]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Right? Yeah.
- [66:00]
Amanda Doyle
All the answers to my Google searches. That would be great.
- [66:03]
Abby Wambach
You're the best.
- [66:04]
Amanda Doyle
You're wonderful. Thank you for your show. I actually think that. Well, you know this. But it's making a big difference for so many people who can't get to therapy but need your brilliance. So thank you for making that show, everybody. You can catch it on Showtime Couples therapy. It's a good time. All right. We can do hard things, like operationalize otherness and consider other people's annoyances as the thorn from which our growth will come.
- [66:28]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Thank you so much. So much. This has been fabulous. Really wonderful questions. Thank you for pushing me to the edge. It's great.
- [66:38]
Amanda Doyle
That's what we tend to do to people. And we will see you back here. We can do hard things. Bye.
- [66:44]
Dr. Orna Goralnik
Okay, bye. Bye.
- [66:49]
Amanda Doyle
If this podcast means something to to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things. Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odysee. Our executive producer Producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.