Cynthia Erivo — Wicked, Wild & Wise — is here!!!

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things with Cynthia Erivo — Wicked, Wild & Wise — is here!!!

Podcast: We Can Do Hard Things
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Cynthia Erivo
Date: November 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and revealing episode, the Pod Squad welcomes Cynthia Erivo—Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Award-winning actress, singer, and producer. Cynthia opens up about her creative process, the release of "Wicked Part 2," and her new book, "Simply More." The hosts and Cynthia explore themes of self-respect, trust, vulnerability, personal boundaries, belonging, and the necessity of being “too much.” Their conversation is filled with laughter, raw emotion, and actionable wisdom for braving life’s challenges while staying true to yourself.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Tone: Self-Respect & Daily Rituals

Matching Pajamas & Self-Respect

• Cynthia has a “through line” of fashion in her life, even when going to bed ([02:42]).
• “If I feel really good before bed, I know the evening just feels better. So I have like matching pajamas and sometimes it’s like loungewear... there’s always an outfit. There might be a robe... there’s always a slipper that matches.” — Cynthia ([02:42])
• For her, bedtime rituals signify returning to herself and setting personal boundaries at the end of the day ([04:09]).
• The idea: Every day is important, because she's spending it with herself ([06:16]).

Vulnerability & Honesty in Writing

• Cynthia’s new book, "Simply More," is described as “very honest” and unexpectedly raw ([06:43]).
  • “I haven’t really, like, held anything back necessarily... as I started, as the words came out... it just became really raw and honest.” — Cynthia ([06:43])
• She shares lessons learned about the world and herself in her journey.

Companionship and Animal Connection

• Talks about her dogs, Gigi and Caleb, and their pivotal role during tough times ([07:46]–[09:03]).
  • “On days when I’ve been alone and I felt very lonely, these two little spirits have been very, very helpful.” — Cynthia ([09:03])
• Discusses how stillness and simply being are what pets cherish most ([09:31]).

Trust, Friendship, and Boundaries

• Cynthia reflects on building a support system before fame struck. She keeps friends who are candid and grounding ([10:51]).
• On trust: “It’s a feeling... Sometimes I’m not necessarily in the place to trust anyone... People reveal themselves unknowingly.” — Cynthia ([12:21])

Wicked, Storytelling, and Cultural Resonance

• Hosts and Cynthia discuss the global influence of Wicked, especially the symbolism in Elphaba and Glinda’s relationship ([13:01]).
  • Cynthia manages the “immensity” of the role by engaging with individual fan stories over the broader phenomenon ([13:51]).
  • Glennon shares her interpretation of Wicked through a lens of patriarchy and societal power ([15:22]).
  • Cynthia’s take: Different people see the story in radically different ways, and journeys toward awareness or action can be staggered among friends ([16:38]):
    “Sometimes it takes a long time for a person to go, ‘Actually, I think it’s time for me to get on the broom.’"

The Power of Asking for Help and Unlearning Independence

Cynthia’s Relationship with Her Father

• Shares a formative story about her father's absence and how it fueled a sense of needing to prove herself and avoid asking for help ([22:20]).

  • “I was trying to prove that I was worthy of being loved... but that doesn’t sustain.” — Cynthia ([25:21])
  • Years later, therapy helped her unpick this thread and become more open to trusting and accepting support ([25:21]–[28:30]).

• Links this experience to how she understands the Elphaba/Glinda dynamic—recognizing when separations are about individual journeys rather than betrayals ([28:30]).

Authenticity & Being Seen

Revealing Self, On and Off Stage

• Commitment to authenticity: “I never want to feel invisible again. I never wanted to walk into a room and have someone see somebody else.” — Cynthia ([29:57])
• Even in auditions and public appearances, she refuses to hide behind props or makeup, wanting to be truly seen ([28:57], [31:46]).
• This approach carries into relationships: she forms genuine, deep connections rather than using surface-level affection ([33:51]).

The Challenge of "Too Muchness" and Asking “Why”

• Cynthia often asks “why” in professional and personal settings, which can unsettle people ([34:31]).
  • “I ask ‘why’ a lot. I question things. And I think people aren’t used to a person going, ‘Why? I don’t understand. Can you explain that to me?’” — Cynthia ([34:31])
• This tendency is part of her “too muchness,” and she urges the pursuit of knowledge—even about one’s own motivations.
  • “The too muchness is how I show up in my body, the way I dress, the way I do my nails—all of those things” ([38:27]).
  • “I dress for me... There are no clothes that I save for going out... They're all special. I wear them all the time.” — Cynthia ([39:43])

Acting, Truth, and Technique

• Cynthia rejects method acting, considering it potentially harmful—especially for women ([42:42]).
  • “To act is actually to tell the truth. ...I don’t believe in method acting because I think it’s dangerous. And I actually think that really only men can do it.” ([42:42])
• Talks about using her own experiences and emotions, rather than “staying in character,” especially when roles involve trauma ([43:03]–[44:38]).

Courage and Transformation: Playing Jesus

• Discusses the daunting task and inner transformation involved in portraying Jesus in "Jesus Christ Superstar" ([45:24]).
  • “I was terrified immediately… And that is the reason I said ‘okay, fine, let’s do it.’ Because I knew I would have to learn something about myself.” — Cynthia ([45:34])
• Describes the energy of performing and her spiritual approach: “You’re the vessel, so the characters come through you, and you make the room for them. You sort of sit yourself to the back.” ([51:04])

Reflections on Limitations Others Place on Us

• Cynthia’s response to criticism that a woman shouldn’t play Jesus is one of compassion:
  • “When other women put those kinds of limitations on other women, I don’t think it’s really about the other woman... They have so little to give.” ([52:28]–[53:22])
• Sees her life (and her pajamas ritual!) as a boundary—reminding herself and others that there’s a human being underneath the public persona ([54:06]).

Personal Anecdotes & Memorable Moments

• Glennon’s story of social anxiety at Sarah Paulson’s birthday party, where she dressed as Elphaba and “dove behind Abby” after seeing Cynthia ([55:21]).
  • Cynthia: “I wish I would have given you the biggest hug in the world. Oh my gosh.” ([56:11])

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Notable Quotes by Cynthia Erivo (with Timestamps)

• “If I feel really good before bed, I know the evening just feels better... It’s a way of recentering, I think, making a decision that’s just for me.” (03:13)
• “It's very honest. I haven't really, like, held anything back necessarily... it just became really raw and honest.” (06:43)
• “On days when I’ve been alone and I felt very lonely, these two little spirits have been very, very helpful.” (09:03)
• “I think if everything was to have happened now, it would be really difficult... but those who are with me on the journey are still with me on the journey.” (10:51)
• “Sometimes it takes a long time for a person to go, ‘Actually, I think it’s time for me to get on the broom.’... We don’t always reach the same place at the same time.” (16:38)
• “I was trying to prove that I was worthy of being loved... but that doesn’t sustain.” (25:21)
• “I never wanted to feel invisible again. That meant in any way, shape, or form.” (29:57)
• “I ask ‘why’ a lot. I question things... but I actually genuinely am okay with not knowing the answer.” (34:31)
• “Too muchness is how I show up in my body, the way I dress, the way I do my nails—all of those things.” (38:27)
• “To act is actually to tell the truth... I don’t believe in method acting because I think it’s dangerous.” (42:42)
• “When other women put those kinds of limitations on other women, I don’t think it’s really about the other woman... They have so little to give.” (52:28)
• "I wrote this as a gift. I kept saying, I really want this to be a gift for people." (59:00)

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Key Timestamps for Segments

• Self-Respect, Bedtime Rituals: 02:42–06:16
• Book Honesty & Vulnerability: 06:43–08:14
• Supporting Animals: 07:46–09:31
• Trust & Friendship: 10:51–12:21
• Wicked’s Impact: 13:01–18:18
• Father, Independence, & Asking for Help: 22:20–29:08
• Being Seen, Drama School Story: 29:08–31:46
• Authenticity in Life & Performance: 31:46–34:26
• The Challenge of Asking “Why”: 34:31–39:43
• Too Muchness & Owning Self: 38:27–40:50
• On Acting & Truth: 42:42–45:20
• Playing Jesus, Identity & Faith: 45:24–52:04
• Women’s Limitations & Kindness: 52:28–54:06
• Cynthia/Elphaba at a Party — Fun Moment: 55:21–56:11
• Book as an Offering: 59:00

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Episode Takeaway

Cynthia Erivo’s presence offers the ultimate permission to be both “too much” and entirely oneself. Through stories of heartbreak, triumph, and daily ritual, she reaffirms that self-respect, truth telling, and even the smallest acts of honoring yourself are revolutionary. This conversation is, in her words, an offering—a reminder that from the dark, we can always bring light.

Transcript

[Host 1]

Wicked fans everywhere know what Oz looks like. And now for the first time ever, they'll know what Oz smells like. Because Gaines Wicked for Good limited edition laundry collection lets fans experience the magic and joy of Oz with every sniff.

[Host 2]

Well, we can do hard things. Greetings people. Today we have the Elphaba herself, Cynthia Erivo, who I knew was going to be magic and I had absolutely no idea how mind blowing and heart swelling and life changing. Spending an hour with this force of nature is. Just hold on to your little witch hats because this is a ride.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So.

[Host 2]

Cynthia Erivo is a Grammy Emmy and Tony Award winning actress, singer and producer. She burst onto West End and Broadway stages in the Color Purple. Oh, silly. And has since taken the world by storm. Erivo most recently starred as Elphaba opposite Ariana Grande's Glinda in part one of the record breaking film adaptation of the hit musical wicked. Wicked Part 2 is being released this week on November 21st. And Cynthia's brand new book, Simply More, which is such a beautiful offering to everyone who wants to know how she became as magic as she is, is available today. This conversation is surprisingly personal. She teaches us how she learned to trust, ask for help, how she prepares and chooses roles, how she makes decisions in her life. This conversation is an offering. Enjoy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Cynthia, hello. Hello. How are you? I'm good.

[Host 2]

Oh, we're excited, Cynthia. We've just been laughing. We've been, we've been just talking and laughing about how excited we are to meet you in real life right now. And we were just giggling about for your book is so wonderful. And you were just giggling about this part in it that made us realize we have no self respect at all and really, really just epitomizes your freaking elegance and self respect, which is the fact that you get dressed up for bed.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, I do.

[Host 1]

So good.

[Host 2]

I do.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I really have. I've been doing it for, for a long time. I just, I don't know. Fashion sort of like has a through line in my whole entire life and I, I. So I don't know when, but I realize that if I feel really good before bed, I know the evening just feels better. So I have like matching pajamas and sometimes it's like loungewear that feels really good and it's, there's always an outfit. There might be a robe to go with the pajamas. There's always a slipper that matches the pajamas and the robe. Yeah, it's a real thing.

[Host 3]

How early do you transition to this? Is it like I'm home for the day now?

[Host 2]

I'M getting into my.

[Cynthia Erivo]

When I'm home for the day, there's, like, loungewear to be in. I cannot be in the clothes that I've been in the whole day when I'm home and I'm not going anywhere. But I don't get into my pajamas before. Before that. So if I'm home late enough and I know the next thing I'm doing is going to bed, then if to pajamas immediately. But I pick the thing I'd never just like, let's throw in these. It's never been that.

[Host 2]

So is it three outfits mainly a day? You're out. Out in the world.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, it depends on the day. It really depends. It really depends on the day. It depends on the day, truly. If I'm just me going to work, like, I'm on a set and I'm coming back, I dress up even though I'm only wearing these clothes for the journey to the set. And then I'm putting on a costume and then coming.

[Host 2]

Wow, Cynthia.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't know. I just. I just feel good, you know? If I start the day the way I want to start the day, then everything else sort of like, follows after that. And if I come back and end the day how I want to end the day, coming back to myself, I guess maybe that's what it is. Maybe finding the outfit and finding the thing that I want to wear to. To rest also is a way of cut, like, recentering, I think, you know, making a decision that's just for me, not. It doesn't matter if anyone sees it.

[Host 2]

You know, and it's like setting a boundary, too. It's like how. It's like the. My friend says when she picks up her wine, which maybe this isn't the healthiest boundary, but that's her way of being like, it's over.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, nobody.

[Host 2]

I am not responsible for anyone else.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The day is done. I'm not leaving. Yeah, cool.

[Host 2]

Amanda, tell Cynthia what you were wearing when you read that part in her book.

[Host 3]

It was like a personal intervention to me because I was reading the book and I was wearing a sweatshirt and, like, offensively old, like, shorts. And I realized that I had been. That is what I wore the night before to bed and had been wearing it all day and was about to go to bed in the same thing. And then I'm. And I was like, you know the.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Song Resolve to doing that, finding something that feels similar, and you just get multiple pairs of it.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So that the refreshes. There's always a refresh. But you know, it's comfortable. I have like certain brands that I go and wear to bed and I. And I just rinse, repeat. I find the things that I like. I get them in several different colors and I know that, oh, this feels really nice actually today I want to do. I want the wide trousers, actually I want the really like thin trousers or I want the long sleeve or. It's the same brand, but they. It's the same. It's like a uniform that I like to wear.

[Host 3]

Yeah, yeah. It reminded me of the book. Throughout the book where you're talking, it's just so dignified. It's such a self respect thing to be like this matters not because I'm going out in the world, but because I'm into myself.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's right.

[Host 3]

And that there is no big days or small days that like every. It's a big moment because I'm here with me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 2]

I love that.

[Host 3]

Speaking of very big moments.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Host 3]

This is a big week. So on this day today, your book simply More comes out. And it is so beautiful.

[Host 2]

So beautiful. Cynthia, it's so beautiful.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you very much. Thank you. It's very honest. I haven't really, like, held anything back necessarily. And I didn't. I don't know if that's what I intended when I, when I started, but I, I think as I started, like as the words came out, as I started figuring out things and I think even this was sort of a discovery. Oh, that's the thing I learned. So. And then it just became really raw and honest. So I'm, I'm so excited to. A little bit trepidatious and scared, but I'm really excited to share it with people. And, you know, I've had some real sort of like, bumps along the way and I've had to really learn some things about the world, about what I do and about me in the process. So to be able to share just even little, little like kernels of it is really helpful. Can you hear my dog in the background? Yes.

[Host 2]

Those are one of your two pups. I'm so excited.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's wonderful. Can I, may I have them come and please?

[Host 1]

Of course.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hold on. Give me two seconds.

[Host 1]

They are wanting Mama.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Come on. There you go. Hi, baby.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So you might hear them jingle and jangle. They've just been wandering around, but she's sort of like, this is Gigi. The other one is over there. Who's Caleb? Who? They're sort of sweet. They're. They're with me a lot. They've been with me on days when it's really, really tough. And they've been very, very helpful little spirits. So.

[Host 2]

Yeah. How are they helpful to you?

[Cynthia Erivo]

They've got very different personalities. Caleb is sort of his own entity. He kind of wanders, kind of. He always does a recce of a place. When I say a recky, he, like, searches a place out, wants to know where it is, and then when he's done, he sort of just goes away and it's like everything's safe. Gigi is like my shadow. She's currently right here. She just wants to be next to me and she's. They're both very good at knowing when something is up or I'm not feeling very good because they come right next to me. They come right to me. They just want to stay in the space. Yeah. They're both just really on the. On days when I've been alone and I felt very lonely, these two little spirits have been very, very helpful. Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 2]

I always wonder if people who are well known in the world, beloved, ambitious, all the things. It feels like those people that are in my life have very special connections with their animals.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And it. I always wonder if it's like a singular being, that the reason I love my dogs is because they're the only beings I know who love me more. The less I do and the more still I am and the less I move around.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Such. I had never thought about it that way. I've never thought about it that way. And that is actually the truth. The less I do, the stiller I am, the happier they are if I'm just that still. And they can just lean or lounge on me. Happy? Very, very. She's literally just this. Gigi is set right here doing absolutely nothing. And she is pleased as punch. She's like, still as anything. She looks like a little cartoon character set by me. It's like. And it's the same for the other one. It's when I make too much noise and I'm moving around that he just.

[Host 2]

He does. Yeah, exactly.

[Host 3]

I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Just that.

[Host 2]

When will she say that's how we want to be loved? Right. Just for doing nothing, just for being ourselves.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. They don't want anything.

[Host 3]

When you become an empire unto yourself, as you've become, is it hard to. To find people who can mirror that kind of love? Because you're. I mean, I'm sure there's so many people are like, you could do this. Why don't you do this. Everybody will make more money if you do this. Like, is it. Is it hard to find that in people as opposed to animals?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think if I was to. I think if everything was to have happened now, it would be really difficult, I think, because it's taken time. I've been really lucky in that I've picked up my people along the way. And so those same people that I picked up along the way, some. Some are not there along the journey anymore, but those who are with me on the journey are still with me on the journey. So I could call my best friend and we'll still. He'll still cuss me out if I'm doing something stupid. Do you know what I mean? Right. And my best friend that I did a show with when I was in two, it's 2013, when absolutely nobody knew who I was. Well, we will still call and cry over the phone and talk about everything. That's my. She's my. Her daughter is my goddaugh. So, you know, I still have really good groundwork before coming into all of this, so. But. But I do think if it was now, it'd be really hard. I feel like I'm a good judge of character. So I have picked up new friends along the way because I feel like people reveal themselves to me quite quickly. I'm not sure why, but it happens. So I know I can know about a person really, really fast. People tell me about themselves very, very fast. And I'm. You know, I try to honor that because I. Something about me makes people feel comfortable enough to share themselves, so I try to hold that. But I also know when people aren't right for me quite quickly. Yeah.

[Host 2]

How do you decide who to trust?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't know. It's a feeling. I think it's just a feeling. And sometimes. Sometimes I'm not necessarily in the place to trust anyone. And so there's definitely moments where it's just like, everyone stay over there. I'm going to be over here. There are other times when it feels really easy, you know?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think people reveal themselves unknowingly. And so those people, I can always spot those who are just like, I just want to be there for you, you know? Yeah.

[Host 3]

Your book is coming out today.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Host 3]

Wicked Part 2 is coming out on Friday.

[Host 2]

This is.

[Host 3]

Okay. So my daughter was Elphaba for Halloween is obsessed. We have been listening to the soundtrack, just trying to derive meaning and put symbols together. And then this song is this. And it is like a total immersion program for her. And I can imagine that. That is happening all over the globe right now. So I wonder for you, like, what does it feel like in this moment, in this particular universe we're in, where everything is. Everyone is in need of a lot of influence and a lot of meaning and everything to be in that position where. Where you are about to influence the world in such a grand way. Does that. What does that feel like in your body to know that that is happening?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think part of me is shutting the immensity out a little bit so that I can manage it as it comes, you know, because I'm really. I'm really moved by how much people have connected with this. This character, these characters, this music, those words. But if I. If I took on the whole thing, I don't think I'd be able to really function very well. So I take it on, like, bite size. I think my favorite moments are when I meet an individual who says, this means this to me, or I listen to this song when I'm feeling really down, or I listen to this song to get myself hyped up, or, you know, that then I can take it in pieces, and then I can really appreciate in the moment what's going on, you know? Yeah, I think that's what's helpful.

[Host 2]

Well, I'll tell you one little story of my Wicked story. We have a mutual friend, Luvia Jai Jones. She's a. Yes, I love her.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I love her. That's my big sister.

[Host 2]

She's been my dear friend for a very long time, too. And, like, real life friend, not just like, you know, interwebs friends. And we've done a lot of racial justice organizing work together. And usually Levy gets. Puts me in charge of the white ladies, so that's an exciting time for me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's smart.

[Host 3]

She's like, I'm not going anywhere near those people.

[Host 2]

She says, they're gonna ask to talk to the manager. And you are the manager. So we've been through a lot of that kind of work together. And when I saw Wicked in the theaters with my family, I saw it. You know, we see things as we are. And I saw it as an incredible story about patriarchy and fascism and women who bind together and the limitations when black women and white women try to work together and how white women often are on board until their proximity to power is threatened and they choose the empire above. So I left the theater crying, and my first text was to Lovey. And I didn't expect explain any context of where I was. I just said, I will always get on the Broom with you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Did she know? Did she get it immediately? Immediately. Immediately. She. She got it immediately. I know she got it. Yeah, that's her.

[Host 2]

Does that. Is that how you see wicked? Is that how everyone sees Wicked? Like what it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's interesting. Some people see it like that. Some people see it see it at all. Some people see the friendship and how they've been tested and how they have different things to do or they have different decisions to make. Some people see it as a betrayal because she doesn't get on the broom. But some people see it as like a decision that she has to make because that's the way she can do good or believes she can do good or some people see it as a seduction of what could be or something that she's always wanted. Now it's in front of her and she has to decide whether or not to leave it behind and just chooses to leave her friend and, and go with power. And I, I think I can see all of that as, especially as the person who's playing the character. I can see how difficult it would be for Glinda to choose her and go on the broom. But I can also feel what a betrayal it is when she doesn't. But I can also go, maybe she's just not. People aren't ready when, when you want them to be ready. Sometimes it takes a long time for a person to go. Actually, I think it's time for me to get on the broom. I think it's time for me to go. It takes time for people to, to get to that decision. We don't always reach the same place at the same time. And so there's no, there's no blame in that. It's just as human beings and entities, we, our journeys are different. We get to the same destination at very different times. You know, if we get to the same destination at all, you know, so generous and beautiful.

[Host 2]

And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard Things for free.

[Host 3]

Gain is sponsoring this episode of We Can Do Hard Things. And Gain is on a mission to spread the joy of scent. They believe that good smelling laundry can make a mundane task more delightful. And why not? If you are doing the important but not always thrilling task of laundry, why not fill your space with good scents and good vibes at the same time? Because when you smell something good, you feel good. Okay, Glenn and Abby, speed round question. What are your favorite scents?

[Host 2]

I love the smell of my kids heads, their hair. That is like home base for me.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Even when it's like, a little gross. Also, all things Christmas or holidays, like facts for you, pies baking, and like pine needles and cinnamon, which these are all just represented for me in candles because I'm not actually doing any of those things. Candles that represent people cooking at Christmas.

[Host 1]

That's good. Do you want to know mine?

[Host 2]

Please tell us yours.

[Host 1]

Okay. Fire burning over a campsite fire. Like, the anticipation for potential s' mores feels exciting. And then jasmine blossoming. I love the smell of jasmine.

[Host 2]

That's a good one, Sissy.

[Host 1]

What about you?

[Host 3]

Okay, mine are coffee, salt air, and whatever the scent is of freshly cleaned floors. When I walk into my house, and I think it's because coffee reminds me of the will to live and. And salt air transports me to my happy place. And clean floors tell me the house is sparkling and all I have to do is relax. Have you noticed that, like our favorite scents, people's most popular favorite scents fall into certain categories from nature, like rose or citrus or pine food like chocolate or bread or everyday comfort scents like baby powder and clean laundry.

[Host 2]

And that is why GAIN wants you to experience the magic of scent with. With their new Gain Wicked for Good collection that lets fans get sent to Oz.

[Host 1]

Get it?

[Host 2]

Love that. With three enchanting limited edition scents designed to transport you to the world of Oz. There's Gain detergent flings in fantabulous floral. Love this alliteration. There's Gain in wash scent boosters in wonderfulest woods and beautiful blossom beads. And GAIN in Wash scent boosters in emerald charm and yellow brick wonder.

[Host 1]

Usually I'm not that girl. See what I did there? But I really love the smell of the wonderfulest woods and the beautiful blossom beads. They. It just makes me so happy. It's. It brings this touch of Oz right into our house. And we love Wicked. So we. We love Oz in our home and we want to thank Game for supporting our show and spreading the joy of scent. We love Gain and we love.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh.

[Host 3]

I was going to ask about. I mean, your. Your journey and your generosity is profound throughout your whole book. And one of the very generous pieces that must have been so difficult for you is your journey with your father and kind of coming to terms with.

[Host 2]

That.

[Host 3]

The way that shaped kind of your life in many ways. Can you just. Are you willing to tell us a little bit of that story on the tube platform and just what it. Kind of how you think, how you kind of deconstructed that role throughout your life when you look back on it?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think so. What happened was my father, I'd gone to pick up a travel card, we call it a travel card here. It would be a Metro card from him at a tube station. We hadn't really ever really been permanently in each other's lives. My mum really did give me the space to want to get to know my father and him the space to get, want to get to know me. And it was never really, the opportunity was never really taken except for very occasionally and he, one of the things that he would do was help us get a travel card to and from school. So we get a travel card, it would last a month and we'd be able to make our way to and from school. At this point, I was at, in secondary school, I want to say just coming into sixth form, it's a bit before college and I meet him at the station and he just decides he doesn't want to anymore. So I, I'm confused. So I, I ask why. And at this point As a 16 year old I don't, I don't really have, I'm not in possession of me not be getting angry, I'm not, I don't know how to not do that. So I, I lose my, at the, at the train station I was like, this one thing you have to do. And I don't understand why we're having this conversation right now. I remember the ticket office guy gets involved and says, you shouldn't talk to your father like that. And I was like, you need to be quiet. There's nothing to do with, you have no idea what is happening here. I don't understand why this is happening. And you, you need to get this, this is the one thing you do. All of this goes on, we go back and forth and then he decides, I'll get the travel cards but I never want to see you again. He gets the travel cards and goes off in the other direction. And I, I, I'm in shock. Like it, like I don't think I realized I would be in shock but I was in shock and I didn't realize it would hurt as much. And it did hurt. I go to get on the train and because I'm like in a daze, in tears, I go in the wrong direction. So I turn around to go in the other direction. He's coming in this. I spot him coming in towards me and passes me by like he's never met before. That is the last time we had had a conversation. We have seen each other twice since then at a wedding and we have not spoken two different weddings. Two different times. One when I was 25. The last one I was, I think, 35, strangely enough. And we have not. We haven't spoken since then. And what I recognized as I've gone back is that from that moment on, I think I was trying to prove that I was worthy of being loved. Or trying to prove one day you'll see that you. You've made a mistake. But that doesn't sustain.

[Host 2]

Yeah. After.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right. Just. It doesn't sustain. It doesn't work. And. And you build up a sort of resentment that starts to color the things you do. And I felt really closed off. And so I. I think the first time I did any kind of therapy was probably when I was about 20, I want to say 26 or 27. It's the first time I did some therapy when I sort of realized that that had been a color in my life and the way I was treating other people was as if they were going to leave. So I wouldn't really. I'd never ask for help. I wouldn't. I would do most things on my own because I was sure that someone was going to leave. And so instead of trusting that someone might be around and want to help, I would push people away immediately and just. I'll do it myself. I don't need anyone to do this for me. Much of my life has been me getting things and doing things on my own. My. On my own. Now, whilst there's been a really wonderful character building thing in that, and it means that I've grown in independence, it meant that my trust of people was. Was Wayne was lacking and I didn't have much and I had. I lost the ability to ask for help. And so when I get to this sort of inflection point during the Color Purple, I. I'm sort of drowning in all the things that are happening because it happens really fast. The Color Purple happens. And all of a sudden there's loads of things to do, and I have no idea how to do it on my own. And I have no help. It takes someone in the show. I think it was my director who was like, you need to help. You need an assistant. You cannot do this on your own. You cannot remember all these dates. You can't remember where you're going. You're gonna show up late to everything. If you're not careful, you're gonna miss things. You need help. And I really didn't know how to do that because I was sure I could just do it on my own. And at that point, I thought I really have to figure out why it's so hard for me to ask because I just never. I never did. I really didn't ask for help very often at all. I would be happy to help other people. I just wouldn't accept a lot of help myself. So as time went on and I started sort of decoding and unpicking the. That thread that was going through my life, I had to relearn how to be a little more open to. To getting help and sometimes. And also knowing that not everyone is going to abandon you. And also that if someone leaves, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are abandoning you. Sometimes it's necessarily for. For them to leave. That. That isn't an offense to you personally, that it is just another part of their journey and another part of yours. It doesn't mean that that's what everyone else will do. You know, I've had. It's lots of learning, lots of unsure.

[Host 2]

That's so interesting. That's how you just described that Elphaba Glinda situation.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct? Yeah.

[Host 2]

That's how you're seeing things now, which.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Is how I see. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yeah. That's so interesting. Do you think that your. One of the things I loved so much about your book is just your daily commitment to be seen, even if it means no props on an. On an audition stage, Even if it. No hair so that people can see your face?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

That's probably why people reveal themselves to you because you are so revealing of yourself to them. Do you think that has any mirror to that subway moment where you're not being seen and he's just walking?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm sure it does. I'm sure it does. I'm. I'm sure it does. I. Because I felt. I remember feeling so small in that moment and. And I've had moments after that that made me feel really reasonable and invisible. There's that moment in the book that talks about that moment in drama school where I'm asked to sing for someone else, where literally I'm meant to be invisible and just. And my voice is the thing that is being used, but I am totally unseen. And so I think that was a really massive moment for me because it struck a chord in that I. I was so mad at myself because I felt like I had betrayed myself and a gift that I had.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And used it in the wrong way. I felt like if. If shame is a feeling, that's the moment I felt. I felt shameful. I felt shame in that moment because I felt like I had misused. Misused My gift. And I never wanted to do that again. And I. I realized that part of that was how I saw myself and how I wanted other people to see me. I never wanted to feel invisible again. That meant in any way, shape or form. I never wanted to walk into a room and have someone see somebody else. I didn't want to ever bring another person into a room unless I was bringing. Unless I was bringing another person into a room. But it was through me.

[Host 3]

Ah, that's so Be okay for the listener. I want to give because everyone will see some part of their life and shame in that story. But this is when Cynthia, during school has been overlooked, given small roles constantly and was not cast in one of the major roles. And then the two women that were cast in the major roles got sick. And so instead of putting her on stage to sing the parts, they asked her to go behind the curtain, sing for the parts, while the women in the front who were sick lip synced. This is an analogy that. So hurtful. But every. When I heard that, I thought. Immediately thought of like three moments in my life where I was like, I've done that. I have sold my self to please people.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct.

[Host 3]

And that's so.

[Host 2]

So you.

[Host 3]

But you're saying not only for. It feels like a similar. Similar betrayal if you're doing it on behalf of lifting up someone else or. Or if you're putting not even your true self forward.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, I think so. Because there's something that comes from dis. And it takes time, obviously, to discover who you are completely. But if the journey. If there's like a daily commitment to finding out who that is, you're always. You're always revealing a little bit of yourself. You're always going to be committed to. This is. Hi, I'm here. It's me. I'm just. I'm. I'm trying to show up as, in as much of an authentic way as I possibly can. And the word authenticity gets used so often, but. And I don't know that everyone really knows what that. That means, but it means even the. The rough parts. Like, you know, when I. I was. I was. When I go to the theater, I'm. I rarely. I have makeup on because I just did a photo shoot. But when I go out and I go to the theater, I don't have. I never wear any makeup whatsoever. And I know that people will be like, can we take a photo? Do you. But I. I also want people to. To know that when you look at me, you actually see me. This is what I Wake up looking at. This is what I go to sleep looking at. So this is the person you see, this is the person you meet so that you're never confused about who's stepping into the room. And so I have tried my best to find ways to make sure that people understand that this is who you're going to get. So when we get on a set, sometimes people are immediately scared of me. I don't know why, or immediately sort of apprehensive about what I'll be like, but I'm the same as I am on the first day, on the last day. So you, the door is open, you can always come and talk to me. And I will get to know every I. I'm not a person that says I love you to every single person I meet. I am a person that will get to know you implicitly before I tell you I love you so that by the time I say it, I know that your daughter's name is such and such. She's going to this school. You drive this, you love your wife, whose name is Rose. All of the information. So I know you. I. That for me is the way I function when I'm moving through a space. I want to know people. You can't know everyone. And that means that the connections I make are really genuine. They mean something. And so to the person who I make the connection with, they know it means something. It's not frivolous. I don't just throw it away. But that comes with, I'm, I'm okay with who I am. And so I'm going to keep revealing that person to you, and hopefully you'll feel comfortable enough to reveal that to me too.

[Host 3]

What's the hardest part of you to get comfortable?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I ask why. Accepting a lot. I ask why a lot. And I think that really freaks people out. I, I, I question things and I think people aren't used to a person going, why? I don't understand. Can you explain that to me? Why would you say that? What does that mean? But genuinely wanting to know the answer? I think often we hear why, or what does that mean? Or I don't understand as an attack. Yeah, like I've said something wrong. So how come you don't understand immediately, but I actually genuinely am okay with not knowing the answer? So I'll ask for it. You know, I also don't mind if you say, I don't know. Then I go, okay, well, should we figure it out then? But I think that's a hard, that's a hard part to Accept of me. And I expect. I think I'm. I think I expect a lot of myself, so I expect a lot of other people. That can be tough. Yeah.

[Host 2]

It was cool for me to read that in the book about even. Even in. When you're in a meeting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Everyone goes to the. What. What are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Which if you don't ask, why here? Then you can what your way down any road. I mean, that you're on the wrong road.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Then you realize, why am I doing this? That you're in a place that you didn't want to be in. In clothes that you don't want to be in, sitting with people you don't want to be with, and you have no idea why. That's right. That's right. And you'll set that.

[Host 3]

You just described a lot of people's lives.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, because we didn't stop to go, can you please explain to me what this will do for us or why I'm. Why I'm doing this? Why do I need to. To do this? Why do I want to do this? And if a person can't give you an answer, we should probably not do that then.

[Host 2]

Well, Cynthia.

[Host 1]

That would fix a lot of problems.

[Host 3]

No one knows why we're doing anything. But we've all agreed to the. What we're gonna do is we're just gonna not ask because that makes everyone uncomfortable. Would we do that?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's so crazy. And when it. When I see it happening, I'm the person that goes, I'm so sorry. Excuse me. Sorry. Excuse me. I don't understand why we're doing this. Can someone please explain it to me? And everyone's face goes.

[Host 1]

Staring blankly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's actually a really good question. That's a good question. Let's. Let's. We should. Let's figure it out. Let's have a conversation.

[Host 2]

Oh, that's so good. It really does. When you first, it's. It's a. It's a slippery slope.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The moment.

[Host 2]

The moment you don't understand why you're there, you must ask, because it's gonna keep getting worse and worse and worse.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And also people start expecting you to just say, okay, yes, but the second. The second you go, I don't know about that. I'm not sure about that. Can you please explain it to me? You will be the person that she's going to ask. And you might occasionally get the. Because. And you just put up with the. And for me, I'm like, you can roll Your eyes if you want to. But you're going to thank me later when you understand why you're doing this and you're going to thank me when you don't have an answer. And I've taken that off your schedule and you don't have to do that anymore.

[Host 2]

That's right. Exactly. Cynthia, is this part of the too muchness? I just want to know. I. Because it's such a sweet offering and by the way, I didn't expect the book to be as vulnerable as it is. I think it's a very. You could have been much less generous with your personal stories, with your vulnerability. Really appreciated that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Host 2]

Is the asking the whys, is that part of this too muchness that you are now embracing and what does it mean to you to be too much?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, that is that it's asking and finding out and getting all the information you possibly can get in order to make the decisions you want to make for your life. And I think that a lot of us sort of abandon that. We abandon the pursuit of knowledge and knowing, not just scholastically, not just because. Not just our books, but our lives. Like we knowing the information that. That, that tells us what to do next or how to move next. I think the too much is. Too muchness is that I think the too muchness is how I show up in my. In my body, the way I dress, the way I do my nails, all of those things. Someone once said to me that my nails. I have it in this. Someone said. Once said to me that that someone was having a full on discussion about whether my nails were a way to push people away. And I said, how can that be when I spend three to four hours with someone literally this close. To do them? I spend three to four hours with a person that close. And then when they're done, many people go, oh, can I see your nails?

[Host 3]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That was so beautiful. Can I see your nails? Now I'm connect physically connected with a person I don't know. And now we're having a conversation about nails. This doesn't push anyone away. It actually goes, oh my goodness, I want to. This looks. It starts conversations consistently. For me, this is just another extension of creativity. It is an. If these are the canvas that another person uses that I get to use in my life. I get to tell stories with these or no stories with these. It shows a feeling, it shows a vibe, and, and it's the same with what I put on. I dress for me. I don't know what going out clothes are. I have None. I have very many clothes that I love. There are no clothes that I save for going out. There are no clothes that I save for being in the house. It's all lovely. I wear it all whenever I feel like wearing it. That's it. There are no special bags, no special shoes, no special clothes. They're all special. I wear them all the time. There's nothing I put aside for anything.

[Host 2]

And now it's time for our ads.

[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

You are one of the most beloved actors of our time who refuses to act. You are like never acting. How is this possible?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because I believe that to act is actually to tell the truth. Yeah, that's what I think it is. And you'll hear people have many different ways about it. Some method actors are method actors. I don't believe in method acting because I think it's dangerous. And I actually think that really only men can do it.

[Host 2]

Say more please.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because the situations that that are told for women and the situations that are told for men usually are very, very different. I can play Lincoln. Like if someone is playing Lincoln, play Lincoln and you're a president and you don't speak to everybody and that's fine. If I'm playing Tessa, who I'm playing right now, prima facie, who is sexually abused, how can I. How can I method act that?

[Host 1]

Wow.

[Cynthia Erivo]

How can I method that? You know? And if we let's make it like, let's say Elphaba. How do I method act being ostracized by everybody in who was around me. I'll drive myself insane. I don't want to be in a place where every. Well, no one talks to me. I don't actually want to be in that place because I've also experienced what it's like when you feel like you don't belong at all. I've actually experienced when no one is talking to you. It doesn't feel good. I don't need to put myself through it to know what it feels like. And so I am mining the things that I already understand, the things that I already know, and funneling them through my body into whoever I'm playing.

[Host 2]

So is the method acting for the men a simpler, more enjoyable, more familiar experience? Because they are playing roles that have power.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct.

[Host 2]

And the women are always. Whether art reflects life or life reflects art, playing people who. Right. Subservient roles and so have been hurt.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Have been abused, all of that. Now we get to shift that more often now. And we have. There are roles that are far more powerful for women, which is amazing, but I, I don't, of my friends, of the people that I know who are spectacular, I don't. They are not method actors, but they're brilliant.

[Host 2]

Cynthia, talk to us about playing Jesus. Yeah, this was.

[Cynthia Erivo]

If you aren't a person who lives.

[Host 2]

In la.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Scary when I, so I.

[Host 2]

I would have method acted that shit.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I, so I have this. I, I. My barometer for whether I should play a role is how it makes me feel when someone says it out loud. So I get, get the message from my agent and she says, so, okay, they're doing a version of Jesus Christ Superstar and they would like you to play Jesus. I said, I beg pardon, what did you say? They, they think it might be a really good idea for you to play Jesus. I said, and because my manager knows me very well, she said, I told them that's an amazing idea. I said, come again? Why? They just want to change something. They want to try something different. And I was terrified immediately terrified. I know what I look like, I know what I am. I know what's going to happen the second this is announced. I knew it immediately. And that is the reason I said, okay, fine, fine, let's do it. Because I knew I would have to learn something about myself. I knew I would have to connect with my faith. I knew I would have to connect with the. The balance between masculinity and femininity. And what that looks like and what that is and is it. And I. I knew I would have to find a way through it all to tell the story my way. I didn't want to mimic playing a man, but I also didn't want to make it as feminine as possible. I was just like, what does that. What is that in between space, where it's just a person with, with energy that brings people in? What does that look like for someone who is connected to a spirit, a holy spirit, God? What does that look like? And I know that for those who read the Bible, it was really interesting because when it was, there was so much. There was both excitement and anger, nothing in between, both the extremes. And for those who were really angry, I knew. I knew that they hadn't really understood.

[Host 2]

What.

[Cynthia Erivo]

What this faith is based on, which actually is love. To love one another as you would be loved. To do unto another as you would have done unto you. We are all. And we are all made in the likeness of God. All made in the likeness. I know that implicitly. And so I was like, but that's, that's the through line. That's the truth. So if I know that's the truth, there's no reason I should be terrified of playing this role because it's already. It's already a part of me. So I can actually, I can just funnel that and tell that. You can tell the story of a person who's in pain. You can tell the story of a person who's afraid. You can tell the story of a person who has a big journey ahead of them and they're just afraid to do it. It. You can tell the person who is. Who is betrayed by a friend. You can tell the story who loves and is loved. You can tell the story of a person who is lifted and pulled down. You can tell that all those are actually really human things. And I can tell that in my body, I can do that.

[Host 2]

Yeah, you did. All of LA was like, in shock by the power and beauty of it for a good long time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I have to tell you, I didn't. I was really overwhelmed by what happened after. I really didn't expect that. I knew we were doing something special. And in that space, I thought, well, this is amazing. That first night knocked me off my feet. I really didn't expect that reaction. You have to understand when, as one person sitting in the center of the stage at the Hollywood bowl, when there's 17,500 people screaming back at you, that's. That's like a wave Of. Of energy and. And emotion that I just wasn't expecting to get. I just did. I didn't. For some reason, I just didn't. I didn't know that that would happen. I just had no idea that that might be a situate. That might be the situation. So when it happened, I. I really tried to just. Just hold the moment, be the character, stay there, wait till it's time to. And. And I. I feel it. And then Cynthia shows up and goes. And then I have to switch her off and go, Jesus.

[Host 2]

Jesus.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You see it? There's like, a moment that goes, yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Host 2]

How?

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's what's happening in my brain. And then I have to go. I have to. I have to. I have to continue. Come back now. We move on.

[Host 3]

Wow.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

So Cynthia showed up for a minute.

[Cynthia Erivo]

To be really there, to be there.

[Host 2]

Oh, that's beautiful.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Actually, I showed up. I was like. I didn't. And I didn't expect. Because it, like, knocked me out of myself. Because sometimes it knocked the Jesus right out of you. Yeah. No, you can, like. Because you have to sort of make room for characters sometimes. Sort of like, you. You're the vessel, so the characters come through you, and you make the room for them. You sort of sit yourself to the back. It's like a theater, you know, you move to the back of the theater while the character comes forward, and they take up most space. And I was happily residing at the back of the theater, you know, existing and watching what's going on, sort of being the motor to which everything happens. And then it's like someone came to the back of the seat and, like, pushed me forward, and I tripped up and was in the room.

[Host 2]

That'S so beautiful.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And had to go. She won't move. I think I need to go back. I have to go back. I'm gonna go back. I have to go back. We have to keep moving.

[Host 2]

Your generosity is so. It really moved me in the book when somebody wrote and said something about how women can't be Jesus, which is just what people have been saying since Jesus time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So it's like.

[Host 2]

I mean, that's not a surprising reaction, but your response was so generous in that you thought, oh, that's so sad, what she thinks of herself.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So sad.

[Host 2]

Yeah, tell us about that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think when other women put those kinds of limitations on other women, I don't think it's really about the other woman. I really think it's about themselves. I think it's about how they've been treated their whole lives. I think it's about what they've been told about themselves, and I think it's about what they believe about themselves. And they can't possibly believe more of any other person because they are now conditioned to believe that they have so little to give. And I felt like that was heartbreaking. I felt like in a moment where. Where she could have seen how much more she has to give because of this character, because of this other woman who is able to do more. She only saw how little she has to offer, and therefore how little she thought I had to offer.

[Host 3]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So when she's saying, cynthia, you can't. You're not. You can't be fully divine. You can't. She meant, I can.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I can't. I can't do it.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because it really read like someone. It read like she was repeating what had been said to her. Yes, that's what it read like. And I was like, these aren't your words. These are someone else's words. Yeah, exactly. They are using you as a mouthpiece.

[Host 2]

Oh, okay. And do you think that all of like, this. It feels to me like the pajamas at the end of the day, like, is this insistence of your. Of yourself.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Your selfness. Always being forward. Nobody else. No, Acting. This is me. Is that a way of drawing a boundary between your acting life and your real life?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think so. You're not getting lost. I think so. I think it's to make sure that people never forget that beneath all of it, that with all of it is the human being. That it isn't a switch that comes on and off. That in order to make all of this happen, the human being has to take care and be taken care of themselves.

[Host 2]

Okay, well, we have to let you go because you have 7 million things to do. But I need to leave you with this at the time. Already. I know. Is that crazy?

[Host 3]

It feels like it's been 30 seconds. Do we have to go?

[Host 2]

Well, you should know that. But real quick. I have, like, really interesting social anxiety. And so I had to go to this party a while back, and I decided I was going to go because I cared about the person. It was right after we had seen Wicked, I started describing my gender as I am Glinda presenting with an Elphaba soul. I was obsessed with Elphaba constantly. Okay. My children to help me get ready for this party, helped me dress up, and I was dressed up as Alpha. Okay, I'm gonna get. This was not a costume party.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it was not a costume party.

[Host 2]

It was not a costume party. I had on my full black dress, my collar, my. My boots, my rings, my nails. I had on everything. And this was the way I was gonna go and be brave for this party.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Cynthia, I walk into the party, and Abby and I are walking down this small hallway, and the first person who we see walking towards us is you. And I dive behind Abby like I've never. I was so.

[Host 1]

It was a friend's birthday party. A friend's birthday party.

[Host 2]

It was Sarah Paulson's birthday party. Oh, my God. And I hid from you because I was like, I am dressed as Elphaba, and Elphaba is walking in the room.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God. But the thing is, I had my Elphaba coat on. You didn't see that leather jacket that I wore? You didn't see that long leather coat I wore?

[Host 1]

Yeah, it was gorgeous.

[Host 2]

Oh, well, Cynthia, you're allowed to dress as Elphaba because you are her. I am not.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God. I. I wish. I wish you didn't dive. I wish I would have given you the biggest hug in the world. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh.

[Host 1]

We. We were actually headed out, and so we just passed each other in the hallway, and I almost died. And she looks at me and she goes, I'm wearing this dress.

[Host 2]

I'm wearing this.

[Host 1]

And I'm like, we're just going to keep walking.

[Host 2]

It's a whole family story now. Cynthia, you're.

[Host 3]

You're a legend.

[Host 2]

Not only the world, but in our home. This hour has been more than I could have ever dreamed. I am so grateful that you are who you are in the world.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Host 2]

This makes all of us better.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you very much. This has been really wonderful and, like, really, like, super, super affirming. You can't imagine. I'm. This book means so much to me. I'm. I was really. My book agent was badgering me forever and ever and ever. He was like, you have to write something. You have to write something. And I'd be like, I don't.

[Host 2]

Not.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, it's. I don't think I have that much to say. He was like, you have a lot to say. I've been listening to you in your podcasts. I was like, I know, but those are just things that come out of me. There's a word. Just stories that I. And he said, well, you should write them down. And I was like, I just. I don't know. And then when we finally sort of did it, I. I don't know. I. I just. I knew it was special to me. And so I'm really glad that. That you like it, that it has been helpful and that you've enjoyed some of these stories and they've been meaningful because it really has meant a lot to me to be on this journey of writing this and telling people what some of this journey looks like, that it all hasn't been, like, bright and flowery. That actually some of the learning has come from the. More. The sort of darker parts of who I am and the things that I've experienced. And that actually that. And forgive me if this sounds cliche, that, that from the darker parts there is always going to be light. That you can always find brightness and light and, And. And joy from the things that. That have hurt, that have. That have pulled you into a dark space and. And that have taken from you, that you can always. That you can always change that, and it can always get you to another place in your life. It's just. I'm really. I'm glad to be doing this with you. I'm really glad to be speaking to both of you, because if anyone knows, you do so.

[Host 2]

Thank you, Cynthia. Your dream, everybody, go pick up the book and give it to your friends and give it to your family. It's what we need right now. We need to not be shrinking. And I won't even tell everybody to go see Wicked because they're already there. So we'll talk about it next week while you're waiting in line for your Wicked tickets.

[Host 3]

You can bring your book, right?

[Host 2]

That's right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I will say that this. I wrote this, like, as a gift. I kept saying, I really want this to be a gift for people. I really want to feel like a gift from me to everyone who gets it, that I want people to buy it for each other and. And give it as a peace offering. And, you know, I feel like that's mostly what a lot of my work is, that it.

[Host 2]

It.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It wants to be an offering for people. So this is one of those offerings.

[Host 2]

Yeah, it sure is an offering. Thank you, Cynthia. Thank you. So much to gain for sponsoring this episode. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us. We can do hard things on Instagram and we can do hard things show on TikTok.