Glennon Doyle (4:54)

I think we're going to try.

Abby Wambach (4:55)

We're going to try. Sister's going to help us. Okay. I just promised a lot of things, Sister. Do you think that we can do those things? And is that actually what this episode is going to be about?

Amanda Doyle (5:04)

I mean, a good portion? I think that yes, it is. Using date night as a way to understand what the hell's going on in our relationship and as a way to get closer in our relationship and with anyone that we love. So it feels like we all know date night's good people are like Yay, do date nights. But over half of us are not doing any date nights. And so whenever something like that happens, it's like, hmm, what's going on there? Because if we know they're supposed to be so good, and everyone says, you should have date nights, but over half of us are not doing date nights, something is afoot. And I think that that's because date nights are broken for a lot of us, and it feels like the prescription is date night. That's the only prescription we have. So everyone keeps writing the same prescription for date nights, but it's not actually fixing our problems?

Abby Wambach (6:04)

Yes.

Amanda Doyle (6:04)

And I have a theory about this, that maybe date nights are actually making things worse, and that's why we stop doing them. If we're not doing date nights correctly.

Abby Wambach (6:18)

Yeah, I understand that, because I remember in a previous relationship, we would go to, like, okay, let's say the quote doctor the therapist. Because you said it's a prescription, right? We would go to the. And we would say, we can't connect. We don't have physical intimacy. We don't have emotional intimacy. And the therapist would say, would write out the little prescription of date night. And so we would go to a restaurant, which we couldn't afford, sit at a table, and stare at each other, which only emphasized and made it more obvious and horrific that we had nothing to talk about that we couldn't. It was horrible, actually. And also, there's so many problems just to start off with, like, date night. Why does it have to be at night? I'm already out. Why not date after June, right?

Amanda Doyle (7:06)

Okay, this is true. And I think what you're saying is exactly right. And in fact, when we started a therapy, like, 1 million years ago, that was on the first day, I was like, I swear to God, if you tell me to have more date nights, I will stand up and walk out of here. Because my problem is not the ability to plan a few hours every couple of weeks. It's like, what I need you to do is get us to the place where we want to have a date together, and that when we have date, we'll be able to talk about things that are different than the things that we talk about every night when we're sitting at the table so that a date night isn't an exact replica of what you do every night, except 10 times more expensive because you paid a babysitter and you paid for a dinner, and now you're like, see, it's just as boring as ever. So let's not do date nights, which is why 50% of us don't do it. Okay.

Abby Wambach (7:57)

Yeah. And then wait, wait, wait. Just to set it up more, because I want to talk a little bit about the challenges before we move on to, like, all the solutions. Also the pressure of date night. Because would you say the problem that most people are trying to fix with date night is, like, there's so much adulting going on or there's so many distracting things that you're not connecting on a deeper level, whether that's emotional or physical. And so that's the presenting symptom that gets you to date night. But what I always used to remember, too, was the pressure of the physical intimacy at the end of the date night. So it's like this prescription, like, you're supposed to. Like, all I could think about at dinner was, oh, God, we're going to also have to make out afterwards. Maybe that was a personal problem.

Amanda Doyle (8:42)

Same underlying thing. But I think we should start with the state of the date night union. Like, let's just, like, set the table with that, no pun intended, the very expensive table that we paid a babysitter for. Okay, so 2020, they did a poll of 2,000 parents of children aged 5 to 18, and 3 in 10 could not even remember the last time they went on a date with their partner. Okay. 3 out of 10 can't even remember it. Then 52% of those spouses reported that they, quote, never go on date nights with their spouses or only go on a few times a year. 48% had once or twice a month.

Abby Wambach (9:23)

Okay.

Amanda Doyle (9:25)

Significantly, spouses who have frequent date nights are 15% more likely to report being very happy in their marriages. And one out of two who frequently go on dates report that they are highly satisfied with their sexual relationship. So we read those stats and we're like, oh, the answer is date nights. Look at all those things. They're happier. The data shows 3 out of 4 report being highly committed to their relationship and not having a divorce. If you have regular date nights. And to that I say, like, do we forget that correlation is not causation?

Abby Wambach (10:03)

Exactly.

Amanda Doyle (10:05)

So if maybe these people are already happier and more connected, therefore they want to go on a date, maybe they're less stressed out about money, so they make date nights more affordable and interesting. There's so many factors here that the date night is not the panacea that we are hoping for. And in fact, they find that simply having this quality time together as a couple is not enough to prevent a relationship from getting stale. And as you said, this professor Cheryl Harjumuk I think is her name. She studies this stuff and she said that if you're already bored in your relationship or your relationship is stagnant, your dates will be too. So it's the same. I agree with you that I think that meh dates are actually hurting our relationships instead of helping it. Because if you're like stuck in this routine and the same like old patterns over and over again and then you go into all the effort and expense to try to get unstuck but you end up recreating the exact same thing on your dates, isn't it just confirming your worst fear that you can't connect and you're bored?

Abby Wambach (11:20)

Yes.

Amanda Doyle (11:21)

If not even a date night, not even all of this money is going to help you connect. So it's very tricky. So I've dove into all this research and I think that this is the answer. Oh, there are a few elements. One really main, main element that you have to have if you are trying to do this differently.

Abby Wambach (11:45)

Okay.

Amanda Doyle (11:46)

The big idea is that the point of dating early on is to get to know someone. The point of dating long term into your relationship is to try to unknow them.

Abby Wambach (12:01)

Oh, that's good.

Amanda Doyle (12:04)

Because if we already think, which many of us who have been with our people for 10 plus years, literally, what is the point if you already know exactly what's going to happen, exactly what each of you are going to say, exactly how you're going to feel, there is no point in going on a date.

Abby Wambach (12:21)

Nope.

Amanda Doyle (12:21)

Because there is no unknown, there is no surprise, there is no risk.

Glennon Doyle (12:26)

Novelty. Yeah.

Amanda Doyle (12:28)

But you have to try to set the stage to make it possible to pretend like you don't know them. So the way you do that is novelty. You need surprise and you need novelty. This person, Dr. Aaron, studies this and so the same circuits in your mind that are that puppy love situation are the same, same ones that happen when you do something new. So they did studies of, okay, they had 53 middle aged couples and they saw how happy they were in their marriage. Okay, it's like just baseline. I'm so happy with this. Then they made one group spend 90 minutes a week doing pleasant and familiar activities, things they normally do in their life, like going out to dinner, going to see a movie, whatever. And then they had the other half do 90 minutes a week on exciting activities. So they did things like go to concerts, skiing, hiking, dancing, something that was like totally outside of their norm that they weren't even necessarily comfortable with. And after 10 weeks they took the Test and the exciting people had significantly greater increase in their marital satisfaction than the pleasant people. It was the excitement that did it. It wasn't the time. The exact same amount of time. It wasn't that they liked the activities. I mean, the other ones were more comfortable for them. It was the exciting factor. They even had things as simple as if you walk across a room making a couple walk across a room back and forth, and then other couples have to tie their wrists and ankles together and crawl back across the room trying to push a ball. The people who took part in the crawling with their arms together showed bigger increases in love and satisfaction with their relationship than the people who just walked back and forth.

Abby Wambach (14:36)

Okay, is it the vulnerability? Because when you say we do things that are comfortable over and over again, that sounds very familiar to me. In those comforting same neurological paths, same. We're not having any moments of vulnerability together. Is it the vulnerability of a risky new situation, whether it's a concert or just like crawling across a thing? Is it shared vulnerability that creates more shared dopamine and connection?

Amanda Doyle (15:05)

I mean, I think it depends on what you think about when you think about vulnerability. I think vulnerability is an element of surprise because for me it's more about novelty and surprise.

Glennon Doyle (15:19)

Yeah, same.

Amanda Doyle (15:19)

But I think vulnerability is necessarily an element of surprise because in surprise there's always risk.

Abby Wambach (15:26)

Yep, risk.

Amanda Doyle (15:27)

And in something you don't know, there's always risk. And. And precisely because you don't know how it's going to turn out. So to me, it just makes total sense. Why are we attracted to strangers? Why do like half the people end up having affairs? It's because they don't know a stranger, Right? It's because they don't know them. And so your mind can be curious and wonder about all the parts and fill in all the parts with all these other things that you don't actually know. Whereas the people that we're with forever. That coloring page is done. We finished it. We got all our data, we colored it in. It has been done. And we've been looking at the page for a long ass time.

Abby Wambach (16:09)

Right.

Amanda Doyle (16:10)

And so there is nothing to be curious about. And so it's not our fault.

Abby Wambach (16:14)

Right?

Amanda Doyle (16:15)

But we need to figure out ways to set it up so that there is some element of surprise.

Glennon Doyle (16:25)

It's like adventure. We went on an adventure last weekend and I just felt like there was a different vibe in the whole car ride there and even the whole car ride back. First of all, we had never done this thing before and we didn't Know how it would go. And it was just for an overnight. So I love an adventure.

Abby Wambach (16:47)

We do all become different people in different scenarios. I think the identity is much less solid than we think it is. It's always changing and fluid. And that makes sense that if you get people into different places and with different people and with different experiences, they become different parts of themselves well up. And then we get to see our people fresh and new. And so it does make sense that it's like before we change the person, maybe we try changing the conditions.

Glennon Doyle (17:20)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (17:21)

And seeing if a different person emerges, that excites us.

Glennon Doyle (17:24)

But also a different person inside of us emerged. I think it's the same. It's not just about feeling boredom with your partner or knowing them fully. It's also feeling boredom within yourself.

Abby Wambach (17:37)

Totally.

Amanda Doyle (17:37)

I mean, think about it, you guys. This is not rocket science. It's why it's like a shtick and a meme that middle aged people are constantly searching. Zillow. It's not because we're gonna buy a different house. It's this idea that maybe something could be different. Maybe there could be a change. Maybe there's something about my life and my future that I don't already know how it's gonna be. And that is what we want in our partnerships. Like the stagnation and the we already know. Everything there is to know is the problem.

Abby Wambach (18:12)

So how do we unknow our people? I love that framework. Let's figure out, instead of the prescription of date night, how it's been done, which does not help us unknow our person. How do we create time and experiences that help us unknow each other?

Amanda Doyle (18:32)

Exactly. Exactly. And if there's not a particular person in your life, like a partner, or if you have a partner that is unwilling to do any of this with you, the really good news is that what Abby said is exactly right. It is the introduction of novelty and surprise and excitement into your life that is a factor of change. So if you can get it within your relationship when both parties are having it. Amazing. If you can't and you bring it into your own life, that then affects you and your relationship. So you can do any of these things on your own or with your kids. They don't have to be with your.

Abby Wambach (19:18)

Partner or with your kids or with your friends.

Amanda Doyle (19:20)

Exactly. Okay, so these are some of the ideas that people had. Ooh. First of all, if you've fallen in love at some point with your partner, you can go back to what that was that you used to do. There's like a memory spark. There's whatever. You can go back to the original time and, like, recreate what you used to do together. That is something that, if you have that, the other thing, something that has some excitement to it, something that has some risk. So physical things like ice skating, snorkeling, roller skating, camping, even things that seem ridiculous, like throwing a ball back and forth and just talking. It's like something to shake you out of your normal routine. The vulnerability piece of trying something new together that you don't already do, like painting or drawing or pottery class or even going on a hike. So you're seeing different things that they're not in your normal purview. They had the idea of a surprise date where one person plans it and surprises the other person. I mean, for me, the elements are physical. Moving my body in a different way than I normally do. That changes things up for me. And having out of my comfort zone physically and. Or out of the predictable from a conversation standpoint, because I just check out like I'm not even here anymore if it's not interesting. So we got like cards to ask questions. It's not like, oh, I'm coming up with them, or he's coming up with them. It's just like a neutral third party has made this thing. Because honestly, even bad surprises, I think, are a net benefit.

Abby Wambach (21:20)

Totally.

Amanda Doyle (21:22)

Is that true for you? Like, when you're like, I'm surprised and I don't even like that thing about you, but it feels better than feeling like I know everything there is to know about you.

Abby Wambach (21:32)

Even negative new information is intriguing.

Glennon Doyle (21:35)

I feel like you just got some new negative info or at least like negative seeming information on our conversation on the car ride home the other night. And I feel like that that was net positive.

Amanda Doyle (21:47)

Oh, my God. Tell me, are we allowed to know?

Abby Wambach (21:49)

Unfortunately, no. Okay, okay. But I kind of want to say one sentence about it. Okay, so it was information about. I'll just say, like, past relationships. Okay, okay. That normally I would think would make me crazy and jealous and I don't want to talk about it. And a little bit it did, but it also made me feel very zingy. Like, oh, I see you. I remember you were a full human being before our adulting life wore us down.

Amanda Doyle (22:27)

And also that you're capable of being jealous. Yes. That is a little bit of passion and unknown of being like, oh, I kind of want to kick her ass.

Abby Wambach (22:36)

Yes.

Amanda Doyle (22:37)

Look, I'm also alive.

Abby Wambach (22:39)

I know what that is. That's aliveness. That feeling exactly yeah, totally. Exactly.

Amanda Doyle (22:45)

And there's really cool ways of. As we've already established, you can spend $300 on a babysitter and a dinner and have it be a total fucking dude. You can also spend $5 on a walk to get ice cream. And it can be really perfect. That is the upside down side. But I think at least if you're in a rut, it's got to be pretty dramatically different. And sometimes it can't be when you're not able to connect. It can't be like you two staring at each other hoping to magically fix the problem in the next two hours. There needs to be maybe a third party. Like, we just went on. My friend suggested it. She went on a date with her husband to a tree climbing, zip lining place. And I thought it was the cleverest thing. Probably cost as much as dinner. And they didn't even go to dinner. They just went to do it. And then we did it last week, and it was amazing. And I actually, like, I was watching John try, like, the hardest one, and I was like, damn, that's pretty hot. He's trying to learn his worst. And I was pushing myself and, like, it was cool.

Abby Wambach (24:02)

You know when you never think that looking across at your partner and being like, she's eating linguine again, like, that doesn't do it. And it's also, like, it makes me think a lot about teaching when kids. What? Just.

Glennon Doyle (24:18)

That is so right.

Abby Wambach (24:19)

Cause it's so true, right? Oh, she's ordering fucking pasta again. Here we go. I wonder what will be dessert.

Amanda Doyle (24:25)

And meanwhile, I'm calculating. I'm like, doing the hours of the babysitting in my head every time. I'm like, if we order dessert now, we can get the hell out of here and it won't be an additional 20 bucks.

Abby Wambach (24:34)

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Glennon Doyle (25:52)

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Abby Wambach (26:26)

You all know I've been using Bokeh for a while now, and I'm into it. Okay. This is like the new toothpaste with lots of different flavors and it's kind of making my mornings and evenings a little bit more delightful. Bokeh is on a mission to inspire more mindful oral care. Their toothpaste is free from fluoride, parabens, SLS and artificial additives. It's powered by nature. It's a clean, clean, safe way to keep your mouth and body happy. And they have delightful and delicious flavors like element. And they also offer cool ones like cocoa, ginger and lemon lavender. And they've got kid friendly flavors like orange cream, watermelon mint and new strawberry mango. For a limited time, Bokeh is offering listeners 15% off its best selling toothpastes on Amazon and bokeh.com with code Glennon15. That's Glennon15. Make the switch to Boca. For the whole family, I think about what we learned about vulnerability and child development, right? And for many reasons. The idea of parallel play, like how people learn how to connect with each other is kids don't sit across from each other staring each other in the eye and together come up with a mutual plan of how to build a Lego. So they sit next to each other and they're both their bodies are engaged. And then like little moments of connection and spark come and it's so precious. You can see it happening. But we forget that. Like, I'll never forget when my kids said I used to think when we need to have a serious talk or any kind of real Talk like a family moment where we got together. We should all sit down on the couch, stare at each other, call it a family meeting. And nothing shuts down my family more. The second I sit everybody down on the couch, they start going, are we getting divorced? Is somebody getting divorced? Like, it brings up trauma of the hard conversations in the past. It shuts down people. Especially if you are a person who's struggling to connect with your partner. Both partners know that that is the underlying, like, thing bubbling in the relationship. So when you sit down at a table and stare at each other, people panic. And you don't even know you're panicking, but you see it as a test of your relationship.

Amanda Doyle (28:53)

Yes.

Abby Wambach (28:54)

It's not loose. It's not free. The person who thinks that they're the reason they can't connect panics more and can't open up because they're in fight or flight. So I think if we measured all of the, bless their heart, couples who are out to dinner, we would see that their nervous systems are frozen. We would see that all their shame is rising up, and we would see how disembodied it is.

Amanda Doyle (29:20)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (29:21)

What you're talking about with, like, the movement and the walking. You know how they say every emotional problem can be solved physically? Like, it makes sense that movement, parallel play would foster the conditions to let the connection come instead of the forcedness of staring at each other in the eyeballs.

Amanda Doyle (29:43)

Yes, yes. If you can't figure out how to enjoy each other, you can both parallel play. Enjoy something together. And you are doing something together. I remember it. Such a fun, quirky thing. John planned a date one time where we live outside of Washington, D.C. like, two miles. And he planned a date where we took the on off tourist bus all over Washington, D.C. and it was so much fun. And, you know, there was people from India and Texas and whatever. They're all like, where are you from? We're like, see that house we're from right there? And it was so fun. And we learned all this stuff about our city that we'd never learned before. It was so cheap, and it was great. We both came back, like, so happy. And we were just sitting beside each other. Like, it's not like we were talking about anything. So there's fun, fun things that you.

Abby Wambach (30:36)

Can do that way you unknow your city. You dated your city.

Amanda Doyle (30:40)

Yes, we unknow our city.

Abby Wambach (30:41)

Yeah, that's right. That's really cool.

Amanda Doyle (30:43)

That's right. I think it can be a vicious cycle or a virtuous cycle, like the vicious cycle is we have nothing to talk about. We're so bored. I guess we need a date night. We go on a date night, we still have nothing to talk about. We're still so bored. So we realize, I guess that's just our life and our relationship and I'm going to stop magnifying and illuminating that by going on date nights.

Abby Wambach (31:09)

Yes.

Amanda Doyle (31:10)

You have confirmed your spheres. Vicious cycle. Then you can have a virtuous cycle, potentially where you are just. It's going to be so fucking awkward. It's going to be so awkward. I'll tell you what is really awkward. The first time John and I did a couple's meditation together, we sat down staring at each other's faces.

Glennon Doyle (31:33)

Oh, wow.

Amanda Doyle (31:34)

With our eyes open. And I was sweating and I was trying so hard not to laugh. So awkward, awkward, awkward.

Glennon Doyle (31:42)

Also, I don't think that we would.

Amanda Doyle (31:44)

Be able to do amazing.

Glennon Doyle (31:45)

I don't think that you'd be able to stare in my eyes.

Abby Wambach (31:47)

Extended eye contact is tricky for me. I won't lie.

Amanda Doyle (31:50)

Yeah. Oh, my God. It's crazy. But that was so unexpected that it was interesting. I think I have a suspicion that people's problems are not that they don't like their person as much as they're not interested in them.

Abby Wambach (32:14)

Yeah, right.

Amanda Doyle (32:16)

And the reason they're not interested that you know what people say? Like, I don't know, are you, oh, I'm interested in him, I'm interested in her. That means I want to get with them. Right. I find them interesting, they interest me, therefore I'm paying attention to them. If someone doesn't interest you, they're not capturing your attention. You're not giving them attention. They're not interesting to you because you think you know everything already. You think you know exactly what they're going to fucking say. You know exactly, exactly what they're gonna do. There's nothing to be interested in. You've exhausted it. But if you can force yourself into awkward situations, if you can ask questions you've never asked and be okay with the answer, it gets more interesting.

Abby Wambach (32:59)

Well, what's curious about that is that it's not even about the other person. It's like how I want to feel is interested.

Amanda Doyle (33:11)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (33:12)

It's not even like, do I like that? Is it is that person, blah, blah, blah. Is that person, blah, blah, blah. It's like, oh, no, actually, this is about how I want to feel. Which is. Makes sense. If you throw yourself into a vulnerable situation, it's about how you feel in that moment. Okay. So one of the things I feel like that's a challenge for us.

Glennon Doyle (33:35)

Us meaning you and me?

Abby Wambach (33:36)

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle (33:36)

Okay.

Abby Wambach (33:37)

And maybe all couples is that there's usually like a realm where one person is way more vulnerable and the other person is not. Okay. So for a very obvious example, I would give you throwing a ball back and forth. When you say that to me, I'm like, okay, I can tell who will be really vulnerable. And I, as a person who did not, during the early years of my life, learned to have a lot of agency in my physical prowess. I'm joking about it, but it's real.

Amanda Doyle (34:11)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (34:12)

It's like if I'm at a soccer game and the ball comes to me on the sideline, as a mom, I have a full on internal panic.

Amanda Doyle (34:19)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (34:19)

I don't know how to kick this back and not look like I don't know what I'm doing. Also, my ideal date would be like going to a museum. There is a vulnerability in that that Abby has, but I wouldn't, you know, so, like, I get confused about for whom. Sometimes the vulnerability is only for one person based on the kind of date you're choosing.

Amanda Doyle (34:45)

Yeah, no, that's a really good point. So you have to either try to pick something that is neutral ground, especially if you have a power dynamic issue in your relationship. It certainly wouldn't fit to have the one person bearing all of the novelty and the vulnerability. So either something that is brand new to both of you or something that is more balanced. It also brings up another point, which is that I can buy the prescription for date night for this reason. And you touched on it earlier about like the expectation. So the research shows that often the ineffectiveness of of date nights comes from it being a one off thing. Because it's like so much pressure that we think we're gonna go on one date night and it's gonna do these wonders for our relationship and it's gonna reap all these rewards. That the benefit of having it be like a set thing in your life is that it one can be kind of a dud. But you're not looking at that as confirmation that you shouldn't do date nights, that it's a regular part of your life, so you're not setting it up to these unrealistic expectations. And it can also be a way that maybe you alternate. Maybe there's something that you're being vulnerable the next time it is the painting class or the next time it's whatever. I also think that it totally depends on the relationship. Like you're saying I'm going to be too vulnerable in that throwing the ball situation. And that's like you are paying the price for that. There are some relationships where being the vulnerable one who isn't as good at the thing is actually really good for your relationship because you're watching your partner kill it in something that you aren't very good at. And that's good.

Abby Wambach (36:35)

That is good.

Amanda Doyle (36:36)

When I was watching John do the rope scores and I was like, God damn, look at that.

Abby Wambach (36:42)

Yeah, that was.

Amanda Doyle (36:42)

I can't do that. That's cool. You know, like, I needed to see him do something better than I was doing. And that was good.

Abby Wambach (36:55)

That tracks. That's really cool. I also like the tip of it, not having to be at night. Truly, that sounds silly, but it's also anything that feels prescriptive and doesn't fit you. Like, how many of us are not at our best at nighttime? Like, that is just a totally arbitrary. This can be date breakfast, it can be date mid afternoon, it can be date 3pm and then also one of my favorite suggestions, which is less. A little bit less relevant now to me, but was always the this. Maybe this isn't a problem for anyone else, but it's like the anticipatory mandatory makeout session after can kind of put this weird pressure on the whole thing, especially for couples that have intimacy issues. So if that's a goal I really like. This is so crass. But the fuck first.

Amanda Doyle (37:54)

Good.

Abby Wambach (37:54)

It's called fuck first. It's like, if that's an important part of it and there's like kind of a loaded thing around it. Just if it's important to you, just do it first, then go off on your thing without that.

Amanda Doyle (38:11)

Gotta get back in time because else it's gonna be like 1:00 in the morning by the time I get to go to sleep. Yeah.

Abby Wambach (38:16)

And then it's like, are we connecting enough during this to make that feel natural? Is this successful enough to make it feel like it's the cherry on the sundae? Or is this even a sundae enough to make the cherry. It's too much.

Amanda Doyle (38:27)

You know, I also think that just underscores the fact that we think that date night is a silver bullet. And if that isn't happening, if it feels obligatory and then it's the wrong type of date night.

Abby Wambach (38:44)

Yeah.

Amanda Doyle (38:44)

Also, if that really is the point, if that is your ritual that you do that after date night and the date night isn't happy for either of you, then maybe you could just not do the date night and have the conversation and say like, wait, are we just doing this to like mark the calendar essentially for when we're gonna make out? Because if so, like, why don't we just make out and then decide what we actually want to do?

Abby Wambach (39:06)

Yeah.

Amanda Doyle (39:07)

And maybe it's different shit, maybe it's different things from each other. But I do feel like I should mention there are other reasons other than novelty that people desire date nights. And you might see yourself in other reasons. Like for me, it's that idea of change from the ordinary. But some people's desire is like demonstrating appreciation, like devoting the time. People might feel like the way I know that I'm important and prioritize for my partner is that they make time for a date night with me or they demonstrate that they are grateful for me by thinking about what I would like to do. So that is not like high on my list of priorities because I already have that in my life. But people, if that is like your thing that you feel like is missing, they do recommend that harkening back to the early days of falling in love, like plan a new date based on your best old dates. That what you used to do. And that is like reconnecting to those core memories of when you first felt like super appreciated, super known, et cetera. Also like playing the game of I imagine a perfect date for me would be X. A perfect date for me would be Y. Like saying that allows the other person to know and also allows you to learn something more about them and use that in the future. And then like a favorite things date where you can plan a date or they can plan a date around some of your favorite things that shows that they're paying attention, shows that they know you. Who doesn't love a little luxury? But I'll tell you what I don't love about a little luxury and that's that it's a little bit expensive. Until I discovered quints. I want to tell you about quints because it is my go to for luxury finds at affordable prices. And lately I have been really into understated, classy, sparkly, everyday things you can wear that end up being fun additions to any outfit. If you're casual, if you're in a T shirt or if you're dressed up. I'm going to tell you about some things that are under $100. The bold paperclip necklace and then emerald cut topaz dangle hoops, 14 karat gold diamond tiny studs and the white sapphire bezel hoops. Give yourself the luxury you deserve with quince. Go to quince.comhardthings for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com hardthings to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com hardthings if you're anything like me, you probably take thousands of photos every year. And while I have more photos than ever, they are all stuck on my phone. I never see them in real life. Getting them out of my phone and into my house felt like it would take more effort than I had to offer. This is why I want to tell you how easy it is to create photo books with Shutterfly. You can make a photo book about anything that matters to you. Your family vacation, a wedding, a graduation, any special life event that deserves to have a physical memory in your home. One that you can revisit anytime and relive. The best part is that it is E A S Y E Z. You can use Shutterfly's autofill tool to get a quick start and then go in and add your personal captions and details to make it just right. Shutterfly also offers a free 24 hour designer service. A professional designer that will lay out your entire photo book for you in just one day. Make something that means something with Shutterfly. Enjoy. 40% off orders over $29 with promo code Hard things. See site for promotional details.

Abby Wambach (43:23)

I like the idea of over time. If there were pod squatters listening that would maybe want to like juice it up a little bit and try the idea of novelty, which in itself is tricky. As someone who tends to think what I want to do is spend my time with my people in comfort. Like for me, comfortability is so what I tell myself is the most important. Which leads us to do the same things over and over and over again. Which I have noticed. I'm a person who wants to watch the same movie 60 times because I know how it ends so I can relax. But I have noticed that memory making. If I do the same things with my cozy family, like 30 nights in a row, I love it. Happy, happy, happy. I don't remember shit. The memories, what crystallizes are weird times when we did something different. Different. So there's something about memory. If making memories is important to you with your people, this is a surefire way to do it. And it's almost like sometimes when I'm doing something novel with Abby or the kids, I tell myself, I don't know if this is Fun. Right now I don't know if I'm having a good time, but in retrospect, this is going to be great. There's some kind of like retrospect benefit that doesn't feel always like in the moment. Joy and perfect and comfort. Because doing something new isn't comfortable, right? Right.

Amanda Doyle (45:03)

Anything could be comfort. Something bad and not good can be comfortable because it's predictable and known.

Abby Wambach (45:09)

Exactly.

Amanda Doyle (45:10)

That is the risk of things that like, everything collapses into a long gray line, Right. In life.

Abby Wambach (45:19)

Yes.

Amanda Doyle (45:21)

In relationships. And if it's everything collapses behind you in a long gray line, then everything in front of you looks like a long gray line. Yes. And when you mix it up and like you present these, whether they're challenges or just mixing it up, you are bonding. There's a little like proof of life, like Bing, like a medical chart on the long gray line. And when there is those and you can look back and see them, then the future looks like it might have those two.

Glennon Doyle (45:54)

One thing that while listening to you both talk, I think that it's really important for the pod squad to hear me when I say this. As a spouse, especially somebody who came in later to a three children family, one of the things, one of the challenges I feel at times is that the thought process and the dedication towards creating and cultivating these lasting memories with our children, that feels to me like it's so much on the forefront of your mind. And I think probably, sister, this is relevant to you too, that you're so obsessed at creating such a beautiful existence and creating these novel experiences for the kids that I do feel like sometimes that our relationship does get put on the back burner and that it is secondary to the kids experience.

Abby Wambach (47:00)

Totally.

Amanda Doyle (47:01)

I know exactly what you mean. I feel like that's totally true.

Glennon Doyle (47:03)

Yeah. And I think that probably a lot of husbands might feel this way, that they become secondary. Secondary or even like fourth place in the thought process of a family dynamic. And being a person who sometimes has that thought, like, oh, and of course life happens and things are going on and I understand, it's understandable why that happens. But just like if you could bring the spouse to like the second position every once in a while and be like, should, okay, what do they want to do? What is their best interest? And to just even talk about it with your spouse, I think it would make a world of a difference. Because when you do have a family, there are these like the ways in which we all think about our children, we think about our spouse. It's always in flux but if you feel like you're never in the position of like, most important, the thing that occupies the mind of your spouse, like, I. I do think that that could go a long way in the planning of these dates, in the planning of just like the family to single out this one on one time so that you two can create this moment that goes black and white and crystallizes this memory forever. I think that that would go an incredibly long way with your spouse.

Amanda Doyle (48:27)

And I think what we're saying is that it's like all the birds at one time, right? I think I used to think like, okay, gotta put some date nights on the calendar. So we're like checking that box over there. And then I should probably do something that makes me come alive because I know that's important and I know that none of my relationships will work out unless I have like a little bit that comes alive. And gotta make sure that John is like doing some of that on his own and. Cause then if he dies inside them, we're all fucked too. Like, it's like, wait, what? No, all of those things are one thing. Yes, they can be. If your date night is not satisfying, you stop fucking doing it. And if you're not doing date nights because they haven't been satisfying, start doing it and do it in a very different way. Go on a walk with your dog. And the rule is you can't talk about anything that you've talked about before.

Abby Wambach (49:17)

But that feels like if we just took away the date night thing. Because date night speaks to me. Like you are saying I have to do all, I have to play, I have to come alive, I have to be human. And then I also have to eat linguine on Tuesday afternoons, Tuesday night, and stare at my partner. It's a different. It makes it feel like it's this thing, this box. We have to check if we just called it like playtime together. How do I play with my husband or partner or.

Amanda Doyle (49:42)

I think that's because that's so varsity for a lot of people who don't even know how to talk about something other than like who's going to do pickup and drop off. I think play is so intimidating that you have to like, take steps to get to the place where, you know, not that the prescription is date night, but that the prescription is trying to get to a place where you crave spending time and playing with your partner.

Abby Wambach (50:07)

I guess it takes away the emphasis of talk to me. Like, even that you said like talk. It doesn't have to be about talk. Talk, talk. It can be something you feel like playing around with that you would do in your own human time to explore.

Amanda Doyle (50:23)

It's totally arbitrary, this whole date night thing. I mean, I think we call it that because traditionally and typically there are two people outside the home working all the time. And so the only time you have is nights and you don't want to cook, so you go to dinner. Like, I think that's why we call it that. But it's very similar to the idea of the play date phenomenon with children. Right. This was like an invention of the 90s. This never happened before. The reason why this happened is because we stopped having free play.

Abby Wambach (50:58)

Right?

Amanda Doyle (50:59)

Because we became so over scheduled and so overstructured and we stopped, stopped being in community. And guess what? We know. Guess what happens on play dates. Exactly what you think is going to happen. The kids know exactly what's going to happen because the playdate has been set up by the mom. And the mom says, I'm going to pick up at this time and then I'm going to take them to the pottery class. And after the pottery class, they're going to go to that playground for half an hour and then I'm going to give them popsicles and send them back home, okay? They know exactly what's going to happen. This is not exciting. This does not have the elements of play that are beneficial to kids, which works with risk, collaboration, unknown. Okay? What we need in our relationships is free play. Not play dates and not date nights. We need to be able to not know exactly what's going to be said to open our minds to the possibility that we don't know everything about our person, that our person doesn't know everything about us, and we don't even know everything about us. Because that is where the excitement in life happens. And that's when there's a future that makes any goddamn sense. Because it gives us a window to figure all that out.

Abby Wambach (52:06)

Yep. So here's how I would do this practically to overcome. Because there is this thing we all know, everything you just said, this is correct. This is exactly it. Okay? And then when you try to put it into practice, your exhaustion, your inertia, your tendency towards the most comfortable thing kicks back in and you're like, I remember that idea, but no, thank you. It's going to be, you know, Netflix tonight. That's what happens. So in order to take what we know and not unknow it and add this back in, I think it would be cool to over time with your person, whoever you're doing this with whether it's a friend or your kid or your partner or whatever, to, like, brainstorm a bunch of weird things you can do together, okay? Just 25 things, 30 things, whatever. Thinking none of these things I have to do today, right? Just, like, whether it's throw a ball outside, walk the dog together, take a bungee jump, whatever the hell, okay? And then I would put them in a bowl, and then I would pick one each week.

Glennon Doyle (53:17)

Would you put bungee jump in a bowl?

Abby Wambach (53:19)

I would not. That's a different episode, but no, I'm not going to fucking budge. Jump. Ever. I don't care how vulnerable it is. There's a difference between vulnerable and stupid, okay? Life is terrifying enough without throwing yourself off buildings.

Amanda Doyle (53:30)

If she ever agrees to bungee dub, you know, your marriage is in real trouble. She's desperate as hell.

Abby Wambach (53:37)

It's not going to be. Do you know what I mean? I cannot and will not deal with any more decision fatigue in my family. I cannot talk about what we're going to have for dinner tonight. I cannot talk about even what we're going to watch on Netflix. So the same thing with food. Let's have 25 things that we all like in a bowl, and we pick one out. That's right. That's what we do. Like, I can be creative and think of myself in a certain way as someone who does something new for, like, an hour on Sunday, which is the time that I can make up all these little pieces of paper that go into a bowl.

Glennon Doyle (54:08)

We could do that on Sunday. And then you pick it all out. You pick out for the week, and then you can go to the grocery store and get it.

Amanda Doyle (54:14)

Yes.

Glennon Doyle (54:14)

I love this idea.

Abby Wambach (54:15)

Same idea for date night. Like, it's too bad nobody sits and decides what they feel like doing this week, because you're never gonna feel like roller skating with your person.

Amanda Doyle (54:23)

No one feels like doing anything. Let's be honest.

Abby Wambach (54:25)

No one feels like doing anything ever. But it's like this idea that I just can't figure out in my life ever. It's like always, I want to be free. I want to play, I want to whatever. I want to be wild and open, which requires discipline. It's true. It's so weird. There is a discipline that goes into requiring of yourself to make time for play.

Amanda Doyle (54:50)

Yeah. Until you catch up with yourself and to crave it.

Abby Wambach (54:53)

Exactly.

Amanda Doyle (54:54)

Like exercising, where you force yourself to do it. Until your body's like, ooh. You know what would feel good right now? Lifting those weights.

Glennon Doyle (55:01)

Yeah. But here's the thing. I also think that, like, there's still never a day that I want to go work out, but I am always 100%. I'm so glad that I did that. And I think that this is the same thing. It's like, you might not feel like going to do something, but I think with like, date nights or whatever you want to call this, I think that afterwards you're like, oh, that wasn't the worst thing in the world.

Amanda Doyle (55:21)

There's going to be duds and it's going to suck. I know I just said walk the dog, but we tried to do a date once where we walked the dog. And it was one of those worse than not going on a dates. Because the dynamic of the dog, I can already guess it, trying to get to heal. And the whole time I was like, oh, my God, this is the worst thing that's ever happened.

Abby Wambach (55:41)

Hold on a second. Did it bring up, like. Cause this is the typical date night to me. So you're like, I want to connect with my person. We're going to take the dog for a walk. And then the dog can't walk, right? And it's pulling and you're. And then all you're thinking is, this is right. We never know how to train people. This is an example of why we are not a good couple. The thing that you're doing highlights all of your problems, right?

Amanda Doyle (56:03)

So everything is not going to like, that is something we shouldn't do as date nights anymore. We're not doing that or that's not a date for us. We're doing something other than that. Without being like, you gotta give yourself a break and not be like, this is a receipt for how shitty proof that we should never be doing it. You gotta expect you're gonna have some strikeouts until you find something that is. And I love your little bowl idea. And I think even better, you could make it as you ease into this, things that have parameters, like, has to be maybe at first something that takes half an hour or less and $30 or less, something within it that. So you have to like little bites, little bites to make you hungry for more.

Abby Wambach (56:49)

I like that. So, like, you could code them. The blue index cards are ones that if we have a half hour. The green ones are if we have a hundred dollars extra. And then here's my other tip, because this is with any, like, new thing that I'm trying. This is what I tell myself because I have the double consciousness always of I'm in a moment, but then I'm judging The moment I'm saying, is this working? Is this worth it?

Glennon Doyle (57:14)

Are you still doing that?

Abby Wambach (57:16)

So what I tell myself is if I'm trying something brand new, like therapy, a new therapy or a new way of life, whatever, I will give this six months. I will not judge these things by one thing at a time. It's like putting yourself out of a job. It's actually quite wonderful. I will. Just because you can't. These sorts of experiences are cumulative. You can't expect that you're going to go do this sort of situation and an hour later you're going to feel so bonded, you're going to be whatever. But it is this sort of thing that if you commit to it over time, you might notice six months later that you have a little more softness or that you're a little bit lighter, or that you, you know, despise your person a little bit. Whatever you're going for, it might happen over time.

Amanda Doyle (58:07)

Whatever's your particular threshold.

Abby Wambach (58:09)

So it could be like, we're going to try this for three months, six months, whatever. And let's just tell ourselves that we can judge the shit out of this on this date, but that we don't have to even think about that before.

Glennon Doyle (58:25)

That's smart. I like that.

Abby Wambach (58:28)

Thanks, babe. I love it.

Glennon Doyle (58:30)

I want to go on a date now.

Abby Wambach (58:32)

Great. Let's make a bowl.

Glennon Doyle (58:33)

I really am excited about this.

Abby Wambach (58:35)

And then also, let's do this. I think that this could be a great wide service to the pod squad. I really think. What if we had people write in or call in about what they're putting in their bowls?

Glennon Doyle (58:48)

The date ideas.

Abby Wambach (58:49)

Yeah. Because we shouldn't have to just all do it all ourselves.

Glennon Doyle (58:52)

Like, also, can you send in dinner ideas?

Abby Wambach (58:55)

Okay, let's do that on a different episode.

Amanda Doyle (58:58)

But also movie ideas, please. Because every time, nothing makes me more crazy. There's. I never watch tv, I never watch movies. And then we have a chance, and it's as if all the TV and all the movies have disappeared. I need a bowl with those. We just reach in and we don't spend a half an hour talking about it. Now I'm tired anyway. I'm going to bed.

Abby Wambach (59:15)

That's.

Glennon Doyle (59:15)

So this is a really good app. Somebody make this app where it's like, you log all of these ideas and it keeps them in the buckets, and then it just like pulls out the ball or the thing and it tells you.

Amanda Doyle (59:28)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (59:28)

And then it takes away responsibility of, I want to do this. You want to do this. It's like, no, this is what we're doing. Okay. Call in 747. 205,307. Tell us your creative bonding, enlivening, unknowing your partner or your kids or your friends, activities. What do you do to unknow your people better?

Amanda Doyle (59:55)

And also, if there's things that you know that make you come alive a little more, throw those at us too. Because if they work for individual, they will work for joint.

Abby Wambach (60:06)

Yeah. Which reminds me of something Esther Perel used to always say, which is like, we look to our partners to, like, turn us on. Right. Where she always says, how do you turn yourself on?

Amanda Doyle (60:21)

Yep.

Abby Wambach (60:22)

Your job is not to come to your partner and stare at them and wait for them to turn you on.

Amanda Doyle (60:28)

Like, well, it's not working.

Abby Wambach (60:29)

Yeah, you could do that, but good luck. Right. It's like what turns you on. And then you approach your partner already turned on. And like, I don't necessarily mean like erotica, although great, if that's it. But also like, maybe creativity, maybe rest, maybe I don't know what it is that makes you feel alive. And then you approach your person. But like, your turned on ness is your responsibility. And that feels like this a little bit.

Amanda Doyle (60:59)

And if you already know what is missing, if you already know rest is missing, if you already know, the one thing you would really love to do is go to the library or the bookstore and wander around and find a book. And you're not doing that because you think you need to invest in your relationship. I can guarantee you that. That knowing and not doing is a major problem in your relationship.

Abby Wambach (61:23)

Yeah.

Amanda Doyle (61:23)

And the skipping over it to try to devote the time to the relationship. You can't trick yourself. So just go to the library or to the bookstore and roam around and do that. And I guarantee your relationship will be better than going and doing some boring ass date night. Because you feel like that's what you should do, even though you know you want to go to the library.

Abby Wambach (61:46)

There he is, eating his fucking linguine again. POD Squad, we love you. We'll see you back next time. Yeah. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you. You'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.