Debunking #Goals: Changing the Way We Set Goals

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Can Do Hard Things – Episode: Debunking #Goals: Changing the Way We Set Goals

Release Date: November 26, 2024
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle
Platform: Audacy

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Introduction

In the poignant episode titled "Debunking #Goals: Changing the Way We Set Goals," hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle delve deep into the intricacies of goal-setting and its profound impact on our lives. Through heartfelt conversations, the trio explores the challenges of traditional goal-setting, the significance of gratitude, and the transformative power of envisioning one's future self without the constraints of external achievements.

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Reevaluating Traditional Goals

The episode kicks off with a candid discussion about the pitfalls of conventional goal-setting. Glennon Doyle shares her personal struggle with being highly goal-oriented, highlighting how goals can sometimes overshadow genuine happiness and self-worth.

Glennon Doyle [41:20]: "It's like, oh, no. If I'm going to go and set out to do something different in my life, I have to think about the person down the road that I want to be and be that person today... it's about the lifestyle change."

Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle add to this conversation by questioning the validity of setting goals based solely on societal expectations. They emphasize the importance of aligning goals with one's authentic self rather than external pressures.

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The Role of Gratitude Practices

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing gratitude and its role in shaping our daily experiences. Glennon Doyle admits that she doesn't maintain a traditional gratitude journal but embodies gratitude in her daily life.

Glennon Doyle [04:45]: "I just am constantly grateful. I'm, like, constantly in my head, like, oh, wow, I'm super lucky."

Amanda Doyle shares her family's practice of expressing gratitude during dinner, illustrating how even simple acknowledgments can offer new perspectives and deepen familial bonds.

Amanda Doyle [06:14]: "Sometimes it'll be things that they're not going to come out and say to you, hey, thanks for doing that for me. But it comes out sideways and their thankfulnesses."

Abby emphasizes that gratitude isn't just a nightly ritual but a way of perceiving and interacting with the world.

Abby Wambach [52:10]: "If you are looking for reasons to be pissed, to be sad... if you've decided that it is your job to look for things to be grateful for... that is what you will see."

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Vision Over Goals: Envisioning the Future Self

One of the episode's focal points is the concept of replacing rigid goals with a fluid vision of one's future self. Abby introduces the idea of having a vivid, personal vision of who she wants to be in her later years, detached from societal expectations.

Abby Wambach [20:15]: "What if instead of some sort of outer goal... no more goals. Got it. But what if it's a vision of yourself..."

She narrates a detailed vision of herself at 70, walking peacefully on a beach, embodying qualities like calmness, community connection, and personal fulfillment without the burden of external achievements.

Abby Wambach [21:35]: "I have a vision of myself and it's not like, organized. It's not a frickin spreadsheet... I'm walking on the beach... she is so calm... surrounded by things she loves..."

This vision serves as a guiding star, helping her make daily decisions that align with her authentic self rather than chasing after external milestones.

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Personal Reflections and Transformations

Glennon shares her therapeutic journey of understanding how her goal-driven nature was a mechanism to soothe herself, masking deeper feelings of fear and aimlessness.

Glennon Doyle [11:51]: "Self determining that value. That is weird and scary."

Amanda echoes these sentiments, reflecting on how societal pressures can lead to self-abandonment when goals overshadow the present moment.

Amanda Doyle [43:12]: "If you are always looking at a goal, then your posture towards everything in the world is looking past whatever's happening towards the sexiest thing in the room... you're desperate for it."

The trio discusses how embracing the present and valuing daily experiences can lead to a more fulfilling and authentic life, free from the shackles of perpetual goal-chasing.

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Redefining Success and Happiness

As the conversation unfolds, the hosts challenge the traditional metrics of success and happiness, advocating for a life centered around genuine connections and self-acceptance.

Abby Wambach [27:42]: "It's just a way of living inside out and not outside in... become yourself as opposed to trying to be what the world told you to be."

They argue that true happiness stems from internal fulfillment rather than the transient satisfaction derived from achieving specific goals.

Amanda Doyle [33:59]: "Goals can be motivating, exciting, totally. But it's the frosting, not the cake. There's a deeper thing that it can satisfy and that's the thing you gotta get to... pound frosting your whole life."

Glennon concurs, sharing insights from her therapist about how goals should not dominate one's identity or self-worth.

Glennon Doyle [34:14]: "If this is like the only way you can achieve some of the ways of being motivated... those are like red flags."

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Practical Tips and Insights

Towards the end of the episode, Abby offers practical advice for listeners looking to shift from a goal-centric mindset to one focused on personal vision and presence.

Abby Wambach [25:55]: "It's just a way of living inside out and not outside in... conjuring up what's your truest, most beautiful vision of yourself you can have."

She suggests creating a vision that reflects one's true desires and values, which can guide daily actions without the rigidity of traditional goals.

Glennon and Amanda also share techniques like creating mood boards or engaging in gratitude practices with friends to reinforce this shift in perspective.

Glennon Doyle [21:38]: "Make a Pinterest board... Some things you're interested in doing, like a mood board for your inner self."

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Conclusion and Takeaways

The episode culminates in a unanimous agreement on the necessity of redefining how we approach goals. By prioritizing personal vision, gratitude, and present-moment awareness, listeners are encouraged to cultivate a life that is authentic, fulfilling, and resilient against societal pressures.

Glennon Doyle [41:44]: "It's about the goal rather than about the lifestyle change."

Abby Wambach [35:17]: "Life is just lifing... you're looking for things to be grateful for... that is what you will see."

Key Takeaways:

• Shift from Goals to Vision: Focus on who you want to become rather than what you want to achieve.
• Embrace Gratitude: Integrate gratitude into daily life to enhance present-moment awareness and satisfaction.
• Align Actions with Authentic Self: Ensure that daily decisions reflect your true values and desires.
• Redefine Success: Move away from societal benchmarks of success towards personal fulfillment and connection.

---

By challenging conventional goal-setting paradigms, this episode of We Can Do Hard Things offers a refreshing perspective on living authentically and finding lasting happiness beyond the pursuit of external achievements.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

It's hard to find a great mentor who can help me level up. My dream mentor, Amy Poehler. I was so excited when I heard that she has a class on Masterclass. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. It's the only streaming platform where you can grow with over 200 of the world's top experts for just $10 a month. An annual membership gets you unlimited access to every instructor, whether you're watching on your phone, computer, smart tv, or even in audio mode. One of the classes that just really stood out to me was building life changing habits with New York Times bestselling author James Clear. I use this and you should too. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com hard things for the current offer. That's up to 50% off at masterclass.com hardthings masterclass.com hardthings this holiday season surprised.

[Abby Wambach]

Everyone on your list with the best gift of all. Tickets to see their favorite artist live. I really love this idea. Our family is trying to focus more on experiences than things. This is a cool way to do that. Whether they're into chart topping pop, classic rock, or hilarious comedy, you can give them the ultimate experience that they'll never forget. Choose from thousands of concerts and comedy shows, including performances by Barrette Eldredge, Mariah Carey, Mary J. Blige, Matt Matthews, Metallica Rascal Flatts, Sarah Silverman and the Trans Siberian Orchestra, and so many more. Give a gift that's more than just something to unwrap. Share a memory together. Whether it's singing along to your favorite songs or laughing until your sides hurt, Find the most exciting gift for every [e-mail] gifts. The easiest way to gift experiences that will last a lifetime. Livenation.com gifts that's livenation.com gifts welcome to we can do hard things in this season of thankfulness. I feel so thankful for both of you.

[Glennon Doyle]

You do?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. I feel deeply thankful for each of you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Why?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, God.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, you give her an inch. You give her an inch.

[Glennon Doyle]

I like specificity.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, I hear that.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Well, I mean today, now that you're putting me on the spot, I would just say that I think that it's hard to find people that you feel security and challenge with like that both make you feel you're exactly okay the way you are, but also are a safe place to grow. I think a lot of times people are either or.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, really?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

I have a lot of people that I love and I feel safe with, but it feels like my safety is dependent on me being an older version of myself, which not older, like, age wise, like, previous version.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

You know?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Or I have people that I'm always trying to keep up with. Like, I feel like I always have to be so fucking evolved, you know? Like, so I just appreciate.

[Glennon Doyle]

Not us, sister.

[Amanda Doyle]

No. Low bar. I can be either low bar, but. But it's also not the lowest bar. It's like, you don't want to be the most expensive house on the block. You don't want to be the wisest of your friends because then get a little stagnant.

[Abby Wambach]

Right, Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

You got to be with people. People you can travel with.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, exactly.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. I think you both are very good traveling partners.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you.

[Abby Wambach]

You're so welcome.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm gonna really accept that.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, great. Do either of you have, like, gratitude? You know, how gratitude practices are supposed to be the key and answer of everything? Do either of you ever do that shit?

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't do it, like, in a journal. I just am constantly grateful. I'm, like, constantly in my head, like, oh, wow, I'm super lucky. I'm so happy that even when the shit was going wrong. We've talked about this before, like, all of last year.

[Abby Wambach]

Just like, every day a new reason not to be grateful.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, no, it made me, in a weird way, just even more grateful because there was loss and grief and hard stuff that was really happening. But it also made me feel like a stronger stability in our home, in our marriage, in our family. And not that it can't be taken away because obviously that's real, but, like, the closer you get to the truth, it's. I don't know. I have been feeling extraordinarily grateful for the things that we've been able to do. I mean, I feel like I've lived such a beautiful life and I've done such weird, cool, bizarre, hard, complicated, terrifying things. So, no, I don't do a practice, but I feel like I live a life of gratitude, if that makes sense.

[Abby Wambach]

What about you, sissy? How are you doing around the gratitude maypole?

[Amanda Doyle]

I feel as far as practices, probably only, like at dinner, we will say something we're thankful for. And it's always interesting to hear what other people are thankful for. And that gives you a different perspective, too. You're like, oh, wow, the things that I think are what these kids value. It's really just the hamburger, then that's.

[Abby Wambach]

What we're grateful for.

[Amanda Doyle]

But sometimes it'll be things that they're not going to come out and say to you, hey, thanks for doing that for me. But it comes out sideways and their thankfulnesses. So that's very cool. That's the only practice, I think. But my thankfulness of this year, of tolmet in the vast world and in my life and body and all of it is that I think. I think it's kind of killed the monster in a way that was always promising. Like, if you just keep going, if you just keep going, it'll work out. If you just keep your head down and do what you think you're supposed to do. And every time you get the discomfort that you're not doing enough or not being enough or whatever, you just push through and try harder. That little beast that has always lived inside of me, which was a lot of evidence to the contrary, I think it finally slew the beast of, like, that's officially horseshit. So I'm very thankful for that. And it's not easier. It's like a different kind of discomfort, which is trying to tolerate the discomfort of having to be okay with feeling icky about not doing, doing, doing, just like holding a different kind of discomfort for a little bit. But I think it feels realer.

[Glennon Doyle]

Killed the monster, so it feels cool. That's so good.

[Abby Wambach]

So the monster was like achievement or busyness or just keep trucking. And then eventually a peace will come because it will be a result of when I've won, right?

[Amanda Doyle]

A destination kind of peace. I always thought that, like, what was standing between me and contentment or me and peace, or me and feeling and being who I thought I should be or how I thought I would feel was at the other end of something. And usually I just filled that up with things. If it's work stuff or kids stuff or everything. Like now I just finally I get it. I get it that, like, it isn't there and maybe it's nowhere. I'm not even sure it's. I know it's not there. I don't know if it's here. It might not be anywhere. But since I know it's not there on the other side of fill in the blank, I can stop trying to trudge through the fill in the blank because where the fuck am I going?

[Abby Wambach]

And what is it when you say it's not there, it might not even be here. What is the it that you're looking for?

[Amanda Doyle]

I mean, peace, satisfaction, feeling. Like there isn't a whole nother it? Jungle. I think the only way for me to not see a journey in front of me that I need to get through is to not see a journey in front of me that I need to get to.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like.

[Amanda Doyle]

And also just being like, you know what? Maybe this is who I fucking am, and I'm just starting to get fine with it.

[Abby Wambach]

Wait, okay, who. What do you mean? Like, cranky? What do you mean?

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, thank you, Glennon. That wasn't a word that was on my top 20 list. I was going to use.

[Abby Wambach]

No, in the moment, you sounded like you were talking about, like, a curmudgeony thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

I was gonna say I don't think.

[Abby Wambach]

Of you that way, but that's what it sounded like. You were presenting TBD on that. I think just like, are you looking for a different version of yourself? And I'm asking this because I'm always trying to figure it out for myself. Like, what is the goal? And what are you now that you're thinking will be different when you find the goal?

[Amanda Doyle]

No, I think that's the point.

[Abby Wambach]

There's no goal.

[Amanda Doyle]

Is that. Like, I've always been goal driven, driven through whatever needs to be driven through, even if it hurts me, even if I hate it, even if it's painful, because I believe the goal is worth getting through whatever you're getting through. And now I'm like, no, I don't think it is. And that's harder because then you have to be like, how do I want to travel if the destination is not determining the route?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. I talked about this with my therapist the other day.

[Amanda Doyle]

Ooh, okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

And because I am such a goal driven person.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's the thing that wakes me up. It's the thing that lights me up. It's the thing that excites me. And so she took me through this exercise. She's like, let's pretend that there is no goal. And she's like, what's the feeling? And I had, like, an instant body constriction of fear and aimlessness.

[Amanda Doyle]

And I am a sloth, existential threat of, like, what is the point of being alive?

[Glennon Doyle]

And I think that part of it is that maybe I don't necessarily trust myself without some sort of external thing. Not to say that that's your thing, but she said, look, goals are very important to be a human being, right? Like all of us, we have them, whether they're dreams. But if you're using them to take the place of that hot loneliness, that dread, then maybe that's something that you want to think about. Right?

[Amanda Doyle]

If you're using them as a Replacement for having to find intrinsic value in yourself?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Then that's tricky because that is what we are.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

We don't have to think about if we're valuable if we keep having these receipts that were valuable.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's exactly right.

[Amanda Doyle]

But if you take away the receipts, you have to either be okay with no objective determination that you are valuable, or you have to, like, self determine that value.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

And that is weird and scary.

[Glennon Doyle]

Self soothing is what she was calling it. She said it's a way to self soothe.

[Abby Wambach]

Soothing. Interesting.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, that's interesting too, because my goal, like, I need a goal too, but I don't want these goals. So I've been taught. Just today I was on with my therapist and I was like, I feel like I do need a goal. So what I would like my goal to be, because it feels like I'm still working towards something.

[Abby Wambach]

I did this.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, you did.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Is the ability to self settle my nervous system. Because I can't control what happens. I can't control what anyone does. I can't even control my relationships with anyone. No, nothing. So I just would find it to be a great delight and important thing and maybe the most important thing if I could just like, figure out how to let whatever happened to me and know that I know how to be in my body with it and not go haywire.

[Abby Wambach]

That's a great goal. I love that.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know. But it's ironic.

[Abby Wambach]

Why?

[Glennon Doyle]

Because the people who are trying to soothe ourselves, it makes us feel safe to have this goal that we're going to because it's a part of us. But sometimes the goal oriented part of ourselves takes control of the wheel and then everything else gets. You can't even see it. It's like I will crash through everything and lose all the other parts of me in order to achieve this goal. And so it's ironic that you're making it like the goal oriented part of yourself is taking the wheel and then like this like, settled nervous system part of yourself is like, but what about me?

[Abby Wambach]

Can I pitch to you all my version of this and see if it would work for you all?

[Glennon Doyle]

Sure.

[Abby Wambach]

Because you two are similar in this way, I think. Yeah, okay. I don't think about it the way you guys do. That's really interesting to me because I don't know, I keep having big projects in the world and they keep doing really well and I keep, no matter what, just being myself. So I have long ago given up the idea that there's something that I'm going To accomplish that is going to bring to me a different experience on the earth. Because if that were going to happen, for sure that would have already happened.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

So that's nice.

[Amanda Doyle]

I killed the monster for you. That's good.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm surprised that it didn't do the same for you because we were doing the same thing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, but I had the opposite extreme. I was like, look, the hustling has been paying off.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

The fact that you push through this is evidence that that was worth it.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

But did it ever make you feel better?

[Amanda Doyle]

I never thought that that was. That wasn't the goal.

[Glennon Doyle]

It didn't matter.

[Amanda Doyle]

The goal was the thing at the other end. So it was not relevant to me.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. But do you now see that that's weird, right?

[Glennon Doyle]

But that's why it's so complicated for people like her and I who are goal oriented. And then you are getting these receipts. Then it's confirmation bias that your feelings don't fucking matter through the whole thing because you have this receipt and then you have another receipt and then a medal and then a trophy and then this. And then in the whole way you're like, I've been actually pretty miserable going.

[Abby Wambach]

Through this whole process, but that doesn't matter.

[Glennon Doyle]

But it didn't matter.

[Amanda Doyle]

But you're not even in touch with your internal thing. You are in touch with your goal and your goal is going well. So you're very confused that something is amiss because it just doesn't feel perfectly right. But there's no reason it shouldn't feel perfectly right because you had the goal and you met the goal. So whatever, put that on a shelf. We'll deal with that another day. Everything's going perfectly.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh my God.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so funny how you can bypass your entire self because the fucking goal oriented part of ourselves are just driving the car. They're just like, I've got this, we've got this. And the other parts are like, I guess they've got it. That's sad.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, I guess everything's going the way perfect. Yeah, it's kind of odd that I have this aching, aching longing of sadness, but that's just. Must be a weird fucking quirk because everything's perfect.

[Abby Wambach]

Irrelevant.

[Amanda Doyle]

I will turn this car around, I swear to God.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, feelings are irrelevant. All that matters is relevance. Right?

[Amanda Doyle]

It's always so lovely when you can.

[Unknown]

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[Amanda Doyle]

I would like to Recommend to you 2amazing blanket/ coat jackets from Quince that are under $100.

[Unknown]

One is their merino wool shirt jacket. Also their hooded faux fur coat. You can get these for yourself or you can get them for others and I recommend both. The best part is that all Quint Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar luxury brands thanks to their direct partnership with top factories. Gift luxury this holiday season without the luxury price tag, go to quince.com hard things for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.com hardthings to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Abby Wambach]

Quince.com hard things okay y'all, the holidays are coming. How do we in fact make the Yuletide gay? How do we in fact make the Christmas merry? I think we do it by having limited family togetherness.

[Glennon Doyle]

Family togetherness, but also apartness.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Both sister. How do we do that? How do we love our families with, as our friend Prentice would say, the distance between which we can love them and ourselves at the same time? I think it's Airbnb.

[Unknown]

I think it's Airbnb and they should just pay Prentice to use that as their tagline. So y'all, we are getting an Airbnb, which we're so excited about during this holiday trip to California with my family. It's so fun, really, because it isn't just functional, it also is like a mini vacation within our family visit. So we got this precious, precious, tiny little place that's right on the beach. Alice is so excited because she can run out, run in without even telling us, which is her plan. So next time you are planning a getaway, try Airbnb. Trust me, it's an experience you won't regret. I will never forget one of the most fun, easy, non stressful Thanksgivings we ever had. And it is a time that Glennon decided, forget it with all of this wild, wild preparing and never enjoying. Let's go on up to Whole Foods and get the entire Thanksgiving dinner. And I mean everything. We didn't know that you could order ahead at the time.

[Amanda Doyle]

So we just went through like the.

[Unknown]

Hot plate section and literally just filled.

[Amanda Doyle]

Up a bunch of these little bins.

[Unknown]

And brought that home.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like sliced turkey pieces. Yeah.

[Unknown]

It would have been better to know everything about Whole Foods Market at that point because what you can actually do is order this ahead. They have brine turkeys that are Perfect for frying, giving you that crispy, golden goodness we all crave. They have organic spiral cut bone and ham. All of the sides, all of the delicious desserts.

[Amanda Doyle]

You are the perfect toast.

[Unknown]

And why are you the perfect toast? Because you're relaxed.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because Whole Foods did the food.

[Unknown]

Get your holiday party started at home? Whole Foods Market. Whether you need the whole feast, just the bird, or a couple of sides, Whole Foods Market has you covered. Just remember to place your order online by November 26th.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. One version of this that I feel like could work for people like Sister and I. I do.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, geez.

[Abby Wambach]

It works for me. And I understand that. I think of things a little bit differently than this, but I still think it could work for you because it combines the self and the idea of a goal. It incorporates the self and your own personal experience on the earth with a goal. And that is, what if you two. Instead of some sort of outer goal that you're attaching yourself to, that is some kind of, like, accomplishment or task or something that's outside of yourself. What if. No more goals. Got it. But what if it's a vision of yourself? For example, I have never been able to attach, like, I'm going to do this thing, and that's going to make me feel better since it clearly didn't work before. Okay. However, I do have, on several occasions in my life, had visions. Not like weird visions that just come to me. Like, I've thought of it, tried to think of it, conjured conjured selves that I want to be when I'm like 70, when I'm 80.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, that's cool.

[Abby Wambach]

I have a vision of myself and it's not like, organized. It's not a frickin spreadsheet.

[Amanda Doyle]

You don't have a Pinterest board?

[Abby Wambach]

No, I do not. But I can see it and feel it. Like, I've had.

[Glennon Doyle]

Actually, that's something my therapist told me to do.

[Abby Wambach]

A Pinterest board.

[Amanda Doyle]

Make a Pinterest board.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, to, like, throw up some dreams. Some things you're interested in doing, like a mood board for your inner self a little bit. So that we can fix. Anyways, sorry, go ahead.

[Abby Wambach]

Interesting. That's cool.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Like a couple mood board. A couple dream board.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, okay, let me just get into the vision because that feels very like. I don't know. That feels constrictive to me. That feels good.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, you're necessarily also being derivative. Like, the whole idea of that is I'm taking from something else and I'm putting it together and making My own. And maybe the copying has been part of the problem to get us to the place of like. But we're copying everyone through. Everyone told us to copy and we're still sad.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Maybe it's because I have visions of, like, when people were doing whatever those were called, like, manifestation boards or something, which blessings to everyone who's done. But I just feel like they were always goals.

[Glennon Doyle]

But isn't what you say?

[Abby Wambach]

They were always, like, things that they thought would make people happy. Let me just explain.

[Glennon Doyle]

Explain it, because I'm feeling like I need. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. I have had, like, a vision of myself. Okay. At 70. And it's not totally thought through, but it is. I am walking on a beach. Slowly. Not, like, working out, just slowly walking on the beach. Things I know about this version of me. I have long, like, wild, curly gray hair. Okay. I am wearing very loose, colorful, like, Roby type clothes. Like, purple. Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like a tunic.

[Abby Wambach]

A tunic. Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

I have some cool jewelry on. That's not, you know. I don't know. It feels like bangly shit. Like, it feels like I got it from, like, the farmer's market. Okay. It's like my local farmer's market because the kid works there who's like, my neighbor's grandkid. And I think she's so cute, so I bought all her shit. Okay. It's like that.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, yeah. Like, Stevie walks up to your house every time she makes a new batch, and she's like, mama G wants some more purple ones.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly. Of course she does. And you know what? They're probably not even cute. No, that's not the point. Okay. It's not the point. And I'm walking on the beach and then the vibe is that there's some people who, like, recognize me and know me, but not because of my work. It's like. Cause I'm not a pillar of the community.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're elderly.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm definitely not. Because I know myself and I'm never going to be a pillar of the community. But it's clear that people have seen me before. They know that I live there.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're the lady.

[Amanda Doyle]

You're a tent pole of a pillar. Just has to stay in one place. And you're not that lady. But you could be a temple. You can move, you could set up, and then you move again.

[Glennon Doyle]

She's the lady that walks by and everybody's like, oh, there's that lady. She walks by here every day. And they're kind of mysterious a little bit. You're not totally known.

[Abby Wambach]

I Don't want to be mysterious though. Actually, I want this 80 year old version, 70 year old version of me. She is in her community, okay?

[Amanda Doyle]

Not aloof.

[Abby Wambach]

No, not aloof. She is connected, but also free because she's a little quirky, she's colorful, she's got wild woman energy. She's very calm. Okay? This is the type of person who like. All right, my neighbor who has the granddaughter who sells the shit at the farmer's market.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, Stevie, Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

She might be like her 25 year old daughter might be going through some shit. You're gonna send her to Glennon. All right? You're gonna send her to Glennon, who lives in the little purple small cottage on the beach, the one with the.

[Amanda Doyle]

Crystals out in the front window?

[Abby Wambach]

Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. She's not trendy. She might not do crystals. She might do a version of crystals that she has found works for herself.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, no, crystals will be out by the time you're 70. It will be vintage you.

[Abby Wambach]

But she's calm. Her cottage is full of her painting and her music and her smell she likes, and her food she likes. And she is a part of the community, but not busy. And she is just surrounded by things she loves and people come to her for wisdom. And she is so at peace in herself and her life.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, that's good.

[Abby Wambach]

That's my goal. If you talk about goals.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I know that's the goal.

[Abby Wambach]

It's a vision. And what I'm telling you is that I can conjure up that self. And I do this all the time. Okay? Now here's what you can't do. If you make this vision of yourself, of who do you want to be when you're 80. Abby knows this. I have had times where I'm like, okay, so now I'm going to buy purple robes, I'm going to walk around the house, I'm going to let my hair go gray. I'm going to try to become that version. Now that doesn't work. Okay, no. I'm slowly evolving into this person, but the way that I'm slowly evolving into that person is by kind of conjuring her each day and figuring out what kinds of things would I do to get myself to that, to become that. So that's like. That's a good reason to do therapy and settle your nervous system. That's a good reason to figure out, like, what you love and what you want to surround yourself by. And what would fill your day to make you feel full of Joy. That's the kind of thing that might make you go to, like a community situation. I don't know. I haven't done it yet. I have. 30 years.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, no need to jump into it real quick.

[Glennon Doyle]

This feels like a spirituality way of talking about goals.

[Abby Wambach]

I don't think so. I think it has to do with instead of choosing externally motivated accomplishments or achievements, it's disregarding what culture tells me will make me happy. And it's conjuring the truest, most beautiful self I can imagine at the end of my life that would make me think I have nothing left to leave on the table, that I did exactly what I came to do. And really, at the end of the day, it has to do with finding a way to be comfortable in your own skin, loving your people enough, and in a way that makes you be able to lay your head on the ground at night and feel like you are yourself. You have at the end of your life, become yourself as opposed to trying to be what the world told you to be.

[Glennon Doyle]

Totally understand that. And I think that I've done a lot of work around quote, unquote goals in the last four years because I used to suffer a lot physically so that I could feel self esteem, all this stuff. I do think that there is maybe a lie that I've been telling myself around setting these hardcore goals or having these goals, thinking that it would change me internally, thinking that it would turn me into the kind of person that was strong and fortified, rather than feeling like I am that person now. Because I also think we all are our future selves right now, whether we want to believe that or not. We do have a part, like many parts of our future selves in us now. So I like this idea of having a vision of myself at 70, 80 years old. Oh my God, what are we going to look like?

[Abby Wambach]

It doesn't have to be organized and it shouldn't be right. Because you need to leave so much room. We don't know. But what I do know is there is a different version of me that's 70 that if I continued to accept every single challenge opportunity that the world presented me with, that I could end up as. And if you take that woman walking on the beach, it's the exact opposite. It's like a harried, cynical, on meetings all day person. I can just feel that self and it is helpful to me because it makes me think of decisions as like, is that going to get me closer to that lady? Or further.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hmm.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's so true. Because what's Wild man is that we're becoming something every day.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

It feels kind of pressurized. For example, it would be challenging for you from now to 65 to continue to fill your calendar every day, reach for the next brass ring, hustle to make every opportunity come to you, et cetera. And then at 66, be like, okay, now I'm going to be the purple lady. I don't think that happens. I think if you know what you want, you've got to kind of keep that at the center. Because if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there. You just go. And then you don't even want that purple lady.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly. That's why the conjuring has to happen a little bit each day. And I don't know how to explain it other than I can feel it. I can feel like is that moving towards that energy or not? So anyway, it's just an idea for people who do feel like they need some kind of where am I going Idea, but have given up on the external challenge opportunity goal ladder rat race situation bringing you any sort of joy. I think it's a cool idea to conjure up what's the truest, most beautiful vision of yourself you can have at 60, 70, 80.

[Glennon Doyle]

What kind of clothes am I going to be wearing then?

[Abby Wambach]

Babe, I really think that you'd look great in a purple flowy robe and beads. But I think even better, you could conjure up what's your truest, most beautiful 70 year old, 80 year old self.

[Amanda Doyle]

How about a tracksuit, a leisure suit, Maybe a terrycloth one terrycloth or vintage back?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, a velour, like a little.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, velour track suit. Nice.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And then you could like even tank it up sometimes and wrap it around your waist and they'd be like, that's the old lady with the amazing arms. But we're not worried about that. That's not a goal.

[Abby Wambach]

Right, but I forgot. This is another thing about the seven year old. This is why she knows so many people from the community, is because she is like a fixture in the elementary school. She like goes and helps the kids with their reading and stuff.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is that what you want to do?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Cool.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, service for me has changed what it is for so long. And the last iteration of service for me, I wonder if this happens to people. I'm sure it does. Like something that's so important to you becomes so big that you don't feel it anymore. Like with nonprofit work with all that stuff, it felt like it started so real, like it was something that was like person to person. And then it just got so big that it felt like it was just a thing of making decisions and it wasn't real. Like I couldn't feel it in my day to day life. And so I do know for this next phase that I would like to make it smaller and realer, like in my life, in my community. I just want it to be littler and more direct. I think maybe that it'll like affect less people. But I think it might be the answer to how to make it not just be service, but just like a way of life that's back and forth and grounded and not signaling and not institutional, but like part of connection.

[Glennon Doyle]

Can I come?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Also, like, I actually want to come and like learn.

[Abby Wambach]

Do you want to be in my reading group?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I really would like to learn how to read better. I'm not even kidding. I struggle reading. I'm a very slow reader and I feel like I wasn't taught correctly and I really didn't like school, but I'm like willing to do the work.

[Abby Wambach]

You can be in my reading group. Okay. I love it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Sounds good. That sounds good. And also, I don't think goals don't bring any joy. I just want to say that I think that goals can be motivating, exciting, totally. And if setting goals and meeting goals gives you joy and makes you feel good, that's amazing. What I think is that that gets confusing because it does give real joy at some points that it's not the deepest answer. It's like the frosting, but not the cake. There's a deeper thing that it can satisfy and that's the thing you gotta get to or else you're just gonna be like pounding frosting your whole life.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's it. And that's what my, my therapist said. She said, look, everybody needs goals, Everybody has them and they are very useful. But they can't be co opted as like the thing that is driving your car for your lifetime.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

To be in relationship with why the goals are set in place and to be in relationship with. Oh, this is a motivating thing for me. Oh, this does help me stay on track. Oh, this does organize my days. Oh, this does give me a sense of self esteem then those are like uber positive in my mind. But if this is like the only way you can achieve some of the ways of being motivated, ways to stay organized and ways to build self esteem, those are, I think what probably are Called red flags.

[Abby Wambach]

I think the red flag has to do with. We wouldn't have goals unless we thought they were gonna make us happy or they were gonna make us something.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

We would not be doing it if we didn't think somewhere in our head.

[Amanda Doyle]

Happy or secure or safe.

[Abby Wambach]

Something like that. Yes. So the problem is that we, in order to serve ourselves, because that's the ultimate thing, in order to get the safety and the peace and the feeling good and the happiness, we disregard our feeling and our peace and our happiness.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

The whole point of it is the promise, the false promise of a future peace or happiness. The problem is, when you believe that false promise, the way that you keep the promise is you completely disregard any of your present peace, your present connection, your present whatever, which is a form of insanity. Right. I will be happy, peaceful, whatever. When. But not today. Today I won't even know. And for me, one of the things that has helped me, I think, find a little bit of peace while also being involved in big projects that would be great if they went. That would be great if they won, is I actually was thinking about it today because I was at a meeting with a group of people who are trying to make something beautiful. And it is a goal that it takes off and that it might and it might not. And what I think is cool is I'm experiencing it much differently than I did two years ago when I was in a similar situation and I was holding so fast to the outcome. Like, every meeting, every whatever was not a means in itself. It was not an end in itself. It was about something else. When you have a goal that you're looking at, what you end up doing is using. You use the people around you, you use your own time. You use everything as a means to an end. And that feels icky. And you end up doing things and saying things and missing things. And now with this go round of the same project, I really am thinking of it in terms of how awesome it is to be a part of this incredible group. And every time I get on a. I'm actually, like, kind of awake and alive and thinking about how cool it is that we're all there and learning stuff and getting closer to the people involved. And I was talking to my mom about it because we have, like, these big pitches this week and all the things. And I was like, I'm having such an enjoyable time. And I think it's because this sounds awful, but I truly don't really care what happens.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hmm.

[Abby Wambach]

If it goes, that will have its own set of awesomeness and challenges and joy and pain. If it doesn't, that will be painful in some ways and will also open up a whole nother thing. And it will mean I don't have all of these weird things that will happen. Like it's every meeting, every togetherness, every planning thing feels like an end in itself to me. And it feels better, man. So it's not the idea of giving up on goals. It's not the idea of not trying hard things. It's just doing it with a completely different energy that honors yourself and your peace and your happiness today and honoring the people that you're doing it with today. And then when you bring that kind of energy, what unfolds ends up being even sometimes more beautiful and important than the goal you set out for.

[Unknown]

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[Abby Wambach]

Mmm.

[Unknown]

Now that's pretty good. Learn [e-mail] baskets Investing involves risks, including risk of loss Fidelity Brokerage Services, llc Member nyse, SIPC you know what one.

Of the best things about the holidays is? Is opening up all of those delicious cards with all of your people's beautiful faces. And you see the little people became bigger people. It's really a delight for me to see those and I have never found a way to make it happen for myself. But now I am changing my ways thanks to Shutterfly. This year I am going to send out a holiday card so all of my people can see how my little people became bigger people. They make it so you can even use camera pictures, which are the only pictures that I have. And you can put it in a collage that they have. They have all these cool templates you can get on there.

[Amanda Doyle]

Easy breezy.

[Unknown]

Get it done for yourself. You can get 40% off your shutterfly order with promo code hard things and send something meaningful. This year you get free shipping on qualified orders and the website has all of the details. Here's the extra perk. They have this thing called Easy Address Collector that helps you simplify the mailing process and makes it super easy to get those cards out the door. Easy to make, easy out the door. Get it done@shutterfly shutterfly.com with the promo code hard things for 40% off.

[Glennon Doyle]

Can I try to understand this even better? Because I think what you're saying is kind of blowing my mind right now as a person who's really been goal oriented and achieved a lot through her life by setting goals and accomplishing them. I'm kind of having this, like, interesting thought that I think might be right and it is a little bit scary. I think that I was in it for the goals and the achievement of the goals, rather than thinking about it as a way to become somebody different so that no longer would I need to achieve that goal again. So, like, for an example, stupid diet culture. Right. There's a reason why none of the diets work. It's because, like, you have this period of time that you think that this diet needs to work within. And if it does, great. If it doesn't, shit, and then you gain more weight because you stop doing the diet and everything goes to shit.

[Abby Wambach]

And you have a goal that you'll be happy when.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

So what you do is you give up your happiness now.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly.

[Abby Wambach]

You deny yourself.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly. And I'm thinking like, oh, so my mindset has only been about the goal and achievement of the goal, not the human being that I was going to become that would be able to sustain me so as to not have to worry about having to achieve any more of those fucking goals.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like, oh, no. If I'm going to go and set out to do something different in my life, I have to think about the person down the road that I want to be and be that person today, be that person tomorrow. And like, eventually I think you become that person rather than these time constrainted goals, that it's about the goal rather than about the lifestyle change.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Does that make sense?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, totally.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, it does make sense. It reminds me what you're saying. Gee, even about the work stuff, it's kind of the equivalent of like, if you're at a party and you're talking to someone, they're kind of like looking past you to see what's more important. If you're always looking at a goal, then your posture towards everything in the world is looking past whatever's happening towards the sexiest thing in the room, which is the meeting of the goal. Right. And you inevitably don't act the way you want to act when that's the case, because you're desperate for it. And a lot of people really do need certain goals to be met. They really do need that job. They really do need to take care of themselves. But the problem is we are very, very, very bad at judging what we actually need. And after a certain extent, we view everything with the same kind of desperate hunger as someone who's actually Hungry and needs something and we don't.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And I think it happens a lot in our relationships too. Like I'm thinking as you're talking about being present in the meaning and learning what you can and come what may, it feels a lot like when you would always talk about Glennon. Don't be so concerned with raising a good kid that you forget you have one. If you are so desperately committed to having a beautiful family and raising a good kid and doing right by your kid that you're looking down at the 20 years horizon and so worried about that, then you're necessarily not looking at them right now.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly. And you're disregarding what's there. I think that's why when people accomplish the greatest goals of their thing and they get the goal and then they wake up and they're like, why don't I recognize myself? Why do I hate everyone I'm working with? Why am I in this situation? It's because when all you're concentrating on is this arbitrary future goal, you do not see what's in front of you. If you're in a meeting and somebody says something that hurts you, or you're like, wait, what is that? What am I doing here? You have to ignore it. It's a slow and steady slope to complete self abandonment and to complete reality abandonment. If you are raising a kid and your goal is, I don't know, whatever it is, they'll go to college, they'll whatever. You are looking at that kid and that is all you're seeing that I have experienced this. You are missing what's in front of you every single day. Because your brain is filtering towards what will get us to that goal. Not the kid that's right in front of you. And you end up missing really important things. That to me, is why the whole recovery thing of one day at a time is so important. It is not about when I was first recovering, it was like, okay, people say that so that I can think about the fact that I only have to not drink today. Because if I think about it my whole life. No, it's because every day is your universe. There is no future, There is no whatever that will unfold as it should tomorrow if today. You are in your presence, you are in your values, you are seeing what's in front of you. You are embodied. It's about embodiment. If I'm in a meeting now and somebody says some shit and I don't, which is a result of where I am in my career right now, which is a lot of privilege too. But if I don't feel right, I get to say now this doesn't feel right. Regardless of what the goal is. Which means I never get too far down where I've lost myself or am surrounded by assholes, right? It's like every day is the universe. And that is not woo woo, that's actual reality. Because when we make the decisions today based on what's in front of us tomorrow, algorithmically goes exactly as it should based on our full presence today.

[Amanda Doyle]

And it's not woo woo at all. If this feels woo woo to you, you should go back and listen to our episode with Professor Lori Santos. That happiness professor, where we talk about the hedonic treadmill. Like it is 100% documented that we are acclimated in our heads by the hedonic treadmill. That we think when we save a thousand dollars we're going to be happy. We work, work, work, we get there and then guess what? We're really happy for a very small window of time because our bodies are made and our brains are made to return to homeostasis as soon as possible. So we get very, very used to a goal we thought would change our lives very, very quickly. And it doesn't matter how big that is, we continue to get adjusted and it feels very normal very quickly. And we no longer get the hit of happiness for the thing we think our goal is. It's science. So it just makes it kind of silly to continue to die your life for something that you're going to feel really good about for a couple of days.

[Abby Wambach]

I know. Because whatever you win, wherever you go, there you are. So you might as well start with the you. Like the goal is the you. And it's different for everybody. For somebody else, their 80 year old vision might be like a hardcore executive whatever, like the opposite of my beach walkie lady. And so then, great. Every decision that you make should be what that woman would do and we'll get her to that whatever. But for me, it's a way of living inside out and not outside in. Because there is no end to the amount of ideas that the culture is going to give you that you should do in order to be happy. And that's always to serve someone else.

[Glennon Doyle]

Can I ask you a question?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

The vision you have of yourself at 70, why?

[Abby Wambach]

Why is it?

[Glennon Doyle]

Why do you have that vision?

[Abby Wambach]

That is the beautiful question, right? I think since there's no why is why I trust it. Like if there's a bunch of whys, that would mean that I had Gathered it up on some manifestation board from magazine articles and put it together. Because the culture has put all the ideas of What a successful 70 year old woman looks like. I've never seen this woman before. I don't know where this comes from. I imagine it's the healed, completely realized version of my self, right? Like whatever brings to you the most peace. Like the version of yourself that when you are lying on your deathbed, you're like, yeah, I can't imagine it being truer than this for me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Cool.

[Abby Wambach]

I lived my life. That version, the version of this person, she's right with everybody. She's made it right with people. Meaning, like there's no loose ends, there's no shame left. There's no. She hasn't done it right. That's not it. I know myself. I'm not putting that on.

[Amanda Doyle]

We're speaking about repair here, people.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah. Like I know this woman has made a mess of so many things. That's part of her beauty, okay? But she's kept her side of the street clean, you know? So anyway, I love that conversation, y'all.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow. Hold on a second. I just want to ask you, because you asked sister and I at the beginning, do you have a gratitude practice?

[Abby Wambach]

I have had many gratitude practices over my life. I'm not thinking of like a particular thing that I do right now, but what I will say about the gratitude practice that anyone has is that I think the magic of it is. I think people think that it'll be important because when I sit down at night and I write my 10 things in my gratitude journal, that will make me feel grateful and I'll go to sleep and like the magic of the gratitude ritual is inside that 20 minutes or that 30 minutes, and that is not it. So remember when one of our kids wanted to be a photographer? And the magical thing that we saw happen in this kid's life is that the way he approached his days, his actual life changed. Because from the moment he woke up in the morning until the moment he went to bed, he was looking for interesting, beautiful things to photograph. That is why you have to be very careful about your goals. Because all you will see when you wake up to when you go to bed is what serves that goal. Okay? If you are a person who keeps a gratitude practice where every night you're going to need to think of five different things that are outside of the box. So you're not always saying, my family, my house, whatever, then by necessity you are going to start waking up, walking through your day, looking for things to be grateful for. And what I know for sure is that life is just lifing that we do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. That seek and you shall find means. Whatever you are looking for, you're going to find it. Meaning if you're looking for reasons to be pissed, to be sad, and if you've decided that it is your job to look for things to be grateful for, to look for beautiful things, to look, that is what you will see. So intention, a vision of it changes your actual experience of life. And I think that's why the gratitude practice has been so important for so many people. It's not a journal, it's not a whatever. It's a way of waking up and seeing all the beauty that is there to be seen. If you do it like it's your job.

[Glennon Doyle]

Totally.

[Amanda Doyle]

Which is why we decided to re air the Ross Gay Delight episode. Because that's all about training your eye. You should listen to that if you haven't training your eye to see the small delights that otherwise would just fly by you unnoticed. And when you start that practice, it's amazing.

[Abby Wambach]

I think it's cool when people do it with their friends. Just. You don't have to have a journal, start a text chain and just snap a picture of the thing that brought you delight or gratitude that day. And you don't have to, like, ever. There's no rules. You don't have to do it. You don't have to write anything with it. It's just such a beautiful way to get to know life through your friend's eyes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

I love that.

[Amanda Doyle]

After we published that article, I feel like I had a. But like with you guys and with a bunch of other people, like, something would happen and we'd just be like, delight, delight. Some headline, delight or meme. Like anything. It was just like. That was fucking delightful.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And the harder life is, the harder our planet is, the harder our political system is. The hard. I think people think, well, how can you possibly. And that is the time, like, when you're gonna have to fight for something, for the existence of something. It is more important than ever to remember why you're fighting in the first place, why it's worth it in the first place. So when times are hard, you gotta double down on that shit. We love you, Pod Squad. We are so grateful for you. You are a delight. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dena Kleiner and Bill Schultz.