Cher is Here!

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Can Do Hard Things – Episode: Processing…

Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Cher
Release Date: November 19, 2024

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We Can Do Hard Things is a heartfelt and candid podcast where hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle engage in deep, honest conversations about the challenges of life. In the Processing… episode, the trio welcomes the iconic singer and actress Cher to discuss her personal journey, relationships, and the wisdom she's garnered through decades in the spotlight.

1. Welcoming Cher and Discussing Her New Book

The episode kicks off with an enthusiastic introduction of Cher by Glennon Doyle. The hosts express their admiration for Cher’s new book, highlighting its personal depth and the invaluable insights it offers.

Glennon Doyle [05:05]: "Your book is so personal. It's such a gift to learn about you as a person."

Cher shares the arduous process of writing the book, emphasizing the difficulty of revealing personal truths while honoring those around her.

Cher [05:34]: "It was such a bitch. I cannot tell you because it's hard. But after a while, it was pretty good. It was never easy."

2. Cher’s Early Relationships and Struggles with Sonny

A significant portion of the conversation delves into Cher’s early career and her tumultuous relationship with Sonny Bono. Cher recounts the challenges of maintaining her identity while being part of the Sonny & Cher duo.

Cher [07:57]: "We weren't acting out parts. We really had a great time, but it was the only place where I had a great time because I couldn't be under his thumb."

Cher opens up about the emotional toll of the relationship, highlighting moments where she felt controlled and lost her sense of self.

Cher [12:14]: "Off stage, he was controlling me. I could not be a human being at all."

3. Overcoming an Abusive Relationship

One of the most poignant moments in the episode is Cher’s account of contemplating ending her life to escape her abusive relationship with Sonny. This revelation serves as a powerful testament to her resilience and the importance of finding a way out of toxic situations.

Cher [13:14]: "I was just going to jump off this thing... I can leave him."

Glennon acknowledges the life-saving nature of this moment, emphasizing its significance for listeners who may be in similar circumstances.

Glennon Doyle [13:17]: "When you’re in a bad relationship, your vision narrows and you think you only have this one option."

Cher advises women in abusive relationships to seek help and find a path to freedom, even amidst significant financial and emotional challenges.

Cher [17:37]: "If you can get out, get out. And if you can't get out, get out anyway."

4. Cher’s Experience with Chaz Bono’s Transition

The conversation shifts to Cher’s relationship with her son, Chaz Bono, and the challenges she faced when he began his gender transition. Cher admits to her initial struggles and fears, offering a raw and honest perspective that many parents can relate to.

Cher [33:26]: "I was terrible. I was just terrible."

However, Cher reflects on the positive transformation in their relationship post-transition, highlighting their strengthened bond and collaborative projects.

Cher [35:05]: "Now, we have a great relationship, really great fun, and we work together on a couple of projects. It’s just great."

Glennon praises Cher's honesty, noting that her transparency provides permission for other parents to navigate similar journeys with compassion and patience.

Glennon Doyle [35:27]: "It's so honest, and it's a gift because it gives parents permission to not get it, nail it the first time, but to keep trying."

5. Insights on Money and Financial Independence

Cher discusses her tumultuous relationship with money, particularly how Sonny manipulated financial agreements to control her earnings. She underscores the importance of financial literacy and autonomy for women.

Cher [29:19]: "It's hard to learn about money, especially when you're poor. It scares you."

The hosts explore the broader implications of Cher’s experiences, acknowledging the systemic issues that allow for financial abuse within relationships.

Amanda Doyle [30:50]: "It's abusive. It's a terrible thing."

6. Parenting in the Spotlight

Cher shares the unique challenges of parenting while being a public figure. She reflects on the difficulties her children faced growing up in the limelight and offers advice for parents striving to balance fame with personal connections.

Cher [38:37]: "It's not easy being the child of a famous person."

7. Coping with Public Scrutiny and Maintaining Authenticity

The hosts and Cher delve into the incessant public scrutiny she faces and how she maintains her authenticity amidst widespread judgment and rumors.

Cher [40:27]: "I just wouldn't give up. I just wouldn't stop. I didn't know how to do anything else."

Cher emphasizes resilience and the importance of persisting through adversity, comparing herself to a bumper car that adapts its direction upon impact.

Cher [40:27]: "It's like a bumper car, and if I hit a wall, I'm going to back up and I'm going to go in another direction."

8. Balancing Acting and Singing

Cher discusses her dual passions for acting and singing, highlighting the different emotional and cognitive demands each art form requires.

Cher [46:27]: "Acting is concentrating, and singing is not. Singing is just letting your voice come out."

9. Future Projects and Dreams

Concluding the episode, Cher reveals her excitement for future collaborations, particularly an upcoming album with her partner Alexander. She reflects on the joy and challenges of continuing to create art later in her career.

Cher [47:06]: "My next dream is this album I’m gonna do with Alexander because I shouldn’t be singing at this age because it’s not easy.”

10. Final Thoughts and Words of Encouragement

In her closing remarks, Cher credits her enduring success to her unwavering determination and refusal to give up, even when faced with insurmountable odds.

Cher [48:31]: "You just don’t give up."

Glennon echoes this sentiment, appreciating Cher’s example of moving forward despite fear and adversity.

Glennon Doyle [48:34]: "You don’t have to have the courage. You can just not stop while you're scared."

Cher humbly attributes her perseverance to a simple refusal to quit, providing a powerful takeaway for listeners grappling with their own challenges.

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Notable Quotes:

• Glennon Doyle [05:05]: "Your book is so personal. It's such a gift to learn about you as a person."
• Cher [12:14]: "Off stage, he was controlling me. I could not be a human being at all."
• Cher [17:37]: "If you can get out, get out. And if you can't get out, get out anyway."
• Cher [40:27]: "It's like a bumper car, and if I hit a wall, I'm going to back up and I'm going to go in another direction."
• Cher [48:31]: "You just don’t give up."

Conclusion

In this deeply personal episode, Cher opens up about her struggles with abusive relationships, financial manipulation, and the challenges of parenting in the public eye. Her honest reflections and resilient spirit provide listeners with both inspiration and practical advice on navigating life's hardest moments. We Can Do Hard Things continues to fulfill its mission by fostering authentic conversations that help listeners feel less alone and more empowered to face their own challenges.

Transcript

[Abby Wambach]

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[Cher]

Ugh.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Pod Squad. If I could reach the stars I'd give them all to you and you.

[Amanda Doyle]

Love me, love me like you used.

[Abby Wambach]

To do I don't think we should go there. I think we should just introduce the guests.

[Amanda Doyle]

I think we've gone there, Abby, and I don't think there's a damn thing you can do about it.

[Abby Wambach]

I know, but it's like kind of Pod Squad.

[Glennon Doyle]

We're a little amped up because we just spent the last hour with Cher okay. With Share Share is on the podcast today. And the first amazing news is that Cher is on the podcast. The second amazing news is that Cher was so warm, so wonderful. Cher helped us solve all of our life problems. Cher talked to us about how life is like a bumper car situation and the only way to survive is to be a bumper car, which you're going to need to hear. Cher talked to us about her regrets when Chaz came out to her. She talked to us about emotionally abusive relationships she's been in and how she got out and what Lucille Ball said to her when she went to her for advice about how to get out. And she talked to us directly about what she would say to anyone who finds themselves in an emotionally or physically.

[Amanda Doyle]

Abusive relationship and what she told Tina Turner to help Tina Turner get out of hers. Just.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. The whole thing is so beautiful.

[Amanda Doyle]

She's a joyful, beautiful person.

[Glennon Doyle]

She is. And I just, I loved her before this interview. And afterwards, I love her even more. And you will, too. And I actually think that this conversation is going to help get ready.

[Abby Wambach]

The one, the only, we give you share the icon.

[Glennon Doyle]

Let's go.

[Cher]

Can you hear me?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, we can hear you.

[Cher]

Okay, here I am, Cher.

[Glennon Doyle]

You are Cher.

[Cher]

Yes, I am.

[Glennon Doyle]

This is Abby.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm Abby.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that's my sister Amanda.

[Cher]

Hi.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hello.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I'm Glennon. And I'm going to be cool. I'm going to be cool. Cher, we love you.

[Cher]

We have loved you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you.

[Cher]

Wait, we're all going to be cool then? Ok.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

I can't promise to be cool. I am rarely cool.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, I'll be cool.

[Glennon Doyle]

We love you. We'll just start with that.

[Cher]

Thank you. All right. Well, that's a good start. Okay. I like that.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know you haven't heard that often. That's a new thing for you to hear. Your book, I absolutely loved. I started and didn't stop. Abby came up to me and said, how is it? What are you thinking? And I just thought, we know Cher the icon. We know Cher the Oscar winner. We know Cher the singer. We know you. But this is so personal. This book is so personal. And it's such a gift to learn about you as a person. And I said to Abby, I just wish I could sit with her for an hour and ask her advice. And Abby said, well, don't we get to sit with her for an hour? You can ask her advice. And I thought, oh, my God, wait.

[Cher]

I have to tell you, too. I had to write that thing again. It was three times. And it was just. It was such a bitch. I cannot tell you because it's hard. First of all, it's hard telling things you don't really want to tell. And then it's hard trying to get things in your own voice and be very careful. But then after a while, it was actually. After a while, it was pretty good. But it was never easy. I was more proud of it, even though I think I should have done it one more time, but I was more proud of it. But it's not easy. It just wasn't easy. Or maybe it just wasn't easy for me. I don't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm a book writer, and I. I agree that writing books is very hard. And I think one of the things that's hardest is telling the truth while also honoring your people. And you did that so beautifully. I loved everyone in your book, even the complicated relationships, all of it. I thought it was beautifully done.

[Cher]

Thank you. I have to tell you that the first book that was written that I didn't have anything to do with, it was more like the encyclopedia. Then when I started doing it, I kept telling everybody, these have got to be stories. They can't be information.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of stories, you start with you and your mama at an Elvis concert, and you're surrounded by all of the fainting girls, the screaming girls. And right from the beginning, that story got me because you looked at Elvis and you said, I want to be him. And I thought, oh, I bet the other girls were thinking, I want to be with him. Right?

[Cher]

Yeah. I'm gonna tell you something. My mom. My mom was crazy, but my mom could be so much fun. And like, when I said, mom, can we get on the chairs and scream, too? I had no idea why I was doing it, but I wanted to do it. And she said, sure, babe. Get on. So we got up on the chairs, and we were screaming and yelling. And my mom was so different than my. My friend's moms. My mom was really cool, and she was excited to be there. And, you know, we didn't have much money, but she got it, and we just had the best time.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. There's so many beautiful things in your book about your relationships. And since it's. This first one is about early relationships, there's a lot about Sunny and Cher, and so much beauty was born from that relationship. But I was very grateful for your honesty in discussing the hard parts about how you lost yourself a bit in that relationship. So when you look back, what parts of that relationship were hurtful? How did you Lose yourself. So many people write to us about losing themselves inside of relationships, and your story can be a real gift to them. So can you talk to us about that a little bit?

[Cher]

Yeah. Well, I was only 16, so I didn't have much self to lose, you know, And Sunny was a much different person. And we just had this thing, you know, If Sonny came back right now, we would be Sonny in Cher. It's just that thing. Not that I liked him at the end, but even if he came back, we would be Sunny in Cher. We couldn't help it. And I'm very forgiving. And so it was so complicated. It was so fucking complicated. He was really nice in the beginning. And then when we lost all of our money, it was maybe one of the best periods for us, except maybe then the beginning of the Sonny and Cher show, because that was so much fun. And it was a time where I had power that he didn't have, because for me, it was just pretending, you know, it was just having a good time. He didn't come by it easily.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, it was harder for him to do the show than you like, harder for him to get into that character? Is that what you mean?

[Cher]

Right. Well, he ended up doing a character who didn't study his lines.

[Amanda Doyle]

That does make it harder.

[Cher]

Right. So that was where he was gonna go. And then that was fabulous because we all laughed and know, and that was him. And then it started to get not so much fun. I mean, before that, I was not having a great time, but in the middle of the Sunny and Cher show, I was just not having a good time at all. I was having a great time with the show. I was not having a good time with him.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

So you would be in your relationship suffering and then get on stage and be acting out the parts.

[Cher]

But you know what? This is what's going to be hardest for people to understand. We weren't acting out parts. We really having a great time. But it was the only place where I had a great time because I couldn't be under his thumb. And because I realized this happened to me twice. Once when I had chess, and once when we did the Sunny and Cher show that I had freedom and that he knew he had to give me freedom in order for me to help him and in order for us to have a good time. And thank God we worked most of the time because it would have been too hard for me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, sure. It felt like when I was reading, it felt like, oh, she's allowed to exist on the stage, but then off the stage, it was very controlling. You weren't allowed to wear what you wanted or wear perfume or have friends. It was kind of controlling off stage. Right?

[Cher]

Well, wait, babe, say that one more time, because I think I'm losing you guys for a minute. Okay, let's try this again. Okay? You said something about what Sunny was an asshole.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I was saying it felt like, when I was reading that your relationship was good on stage because he was wanting you to exist in all your sharedness on stage. But then off stage, it felt like he was controlling you.

[Cher]

Oh, yeah, yeah. It was terrible, actually.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cher]

It was like on stage, we were equals. And also, maybe he needed me more than I needed him.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Cher]

But off stage, because I had started so young, he was not interested in me being a human being at all.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. Now, Cher, there's this story that you tell in this book that I think could save lives, okay? And when things got really bad, you started thinking, maybe I have to end my life because I don't know how to get out of this. And then you're standing on a balcony and you have this epiphany.

[Cher]

Well, I was having a really, really hard time. And when we were on the road, I just wasn't allowed any freedom at all. So I wasn't allowed to talk to the band. I wasn't allowed to do anything. I wasn't allowed to go anyplace. You know, I just wasn't allowed do anything. So I kept thinking, I can't take this. And then one night, I stopped eating, I stopped sleeping. And one night I just thought, I got to get out of here. I'm just going to jump off this thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cher]

And then I thought I could leave him.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. It's such a beautiful thing because when you're in a bad relationship, your vision narrows and you think you only have this one option. So when I read that, oh, I don't have to jump. I can leave him, I thought, that's going to save lives, that moment. So then what happened?

[Cher]

Right? I mean, it was like. It was a phenomenon. Like, oh, I don't have to do this. I can do that. And it just never occurred to me to do it, I think because he had so much control when we were not doing the show. And when we were on stage, it was the same thing. We were equal, and there was nothing he could do. So at those two points, we were having a fun time and he was enjoying it. We were, I think, always destined to be Sonny and Cher. And so it was really fun, you know? And then the moment it was over, then it was, you know, I don't know. I don't know. It wasn't fun.

[Amanda Doyle]

You hear these stories about this, and in my experience, I'm just wondering, like, was it the more popular you got, the more a life you had on stage, did that correspond with the more control he was exerting over you? Like, was it in response to you getting bigger that you needed to be smaller in the relationship?

[Cher]

I really don't know, because when I was young, I was kind of sickly. I have the strangers kind of a lot of energy, you know, a lot of emotion, a lot of just vitality and then sickness. And when I met him, I was in a sick kind of period, and he took care of me, and then it kind of stayed like that and stayed like that, and then it got a little bit worse, and it was more than taken care of. It was telling you what to do and what not to do. And I never thought. I just never thought to rebel, because the one time I told him how I felt, and I remember saying, I'm just not happy. And he just started screaming at me and said, do you want me to divorce you? I should have said yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cher]

But you know what? I wasn't ready till I was ready. I just. It hadn't taken so long. But because our careers were so entwined with our personal life, I didn't know what to do. You know? Also, I have dyslexia. Not that that has anything to do with anything, but it's like, I never made out a check until I was, like, right before I left him, I just was terrified. So I wasn't. I knew how to do what I did, and I didn't know how to do much else except when Charles was born. And that was a great thing. When Charles was born. Now, this is before the show. When Charles was born, it lifted me up. When we started to do the TV show, it lifted me up, and there was nothing he could do to me in those times. And I don't think there was anything he wanted to do to me.

[Glennon Doyle]

How did you leave? Do you remember those moments? Like, how did you do it? I read in the book that you talked to Lucille Ball about what to do. This was a beautiful sisterhood chain that you talked to Lucille Ball. And then after you left, Tina Turner came to you, right, to ask you for advice. What did she ask you?

[Cher]

What, Lucy?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. You asked Lucy, right? First.

[Cher]

Yeah, I asked Lucy. I said, you know, you're the only person that I know of who's ever been in this kind of a position? The only one. I said, and I don't know what to do. And she said, fuck him. You're the one with the talent.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's an evergreen statement if I've ever heard one.

[Cher]

Yeah. And that's so Lucy. Oh, I knew Lucy when I was little.

[Glennon Doyle]

God. And then what did you say to Tina? What did Tina ask you exactly?

[Cher]

How did you leave him?

[Glennon Doyle]

And what did you say to her?

[Cher]

I said, I just walked out one night.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow. So what would you say right now? You share who's been through all this, who's gotten out of this? What would you say to a woman who's listening right now who might be in a physically or emotionally abusive relationship? What would your advice be?

[Cher]

To a friend, I would say it was easier for me to leave, except I ended up with a car and my clothes and that was it.

[Amanda Doyle]

And a $2 million debt.

[Cher]

Yeah, well, that's true. I forgot about that. I remembered at the time. But I would tell if you have any way to do it, do it, you know, because as I got older and more kind of like angry about having no freedom, that's when all of the I can't do anything. I'm going to have to jump off. I can't do anything. I'm never going to be able to do anything. I'm just going to be caught here forever. So I don't know, tell a friend, tell your mom, tell somebody, and get out. If you can get out, get out. And if you can't get out, get out anyway.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Quince.com hardthings okay, y'all, the holidays are coming. How do we in fact make the Yuletide gay? How do we in fact make the Christmas merry? I think we do it by having limited family togetherness.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, Family togetherness, but also apartness.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right?

[Glennon Doyle]

Both sister. How do we do that? How do we love our families with, as our friend Prentice would say, the distance between which we can love them and ourselves at the same time? I think Airbnb.

[Amanda Doyle]

I think it's Airbnb and they should just pay Prentice to use that as their tagline. So, y'all, we are getting an Airbnb which we're so excited about during this holiday trip to California with my family. It's so fun, really, because it isn't just functional, it also is like a mini vacation within our family visit. So we got this precious, precious, tiny little place that's right on the beach. Alice is so excited because she can run out, run in without even telling us which is her plan. So next time you are planning a getaway, try Airbnb. Trust me, it's an experience you won't regret.

[Glennon Doyle]

So you seem happy now in your relationship. Are you happy now in your relationship with Alexander?

[Cher]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

You are?

[Cher]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Why?

[Cher]

I'm very happy. He's great. He's actually very settled. But we talk so much. We have everything to talk about. We talk about music, we talk about friends, we talk about love, we talk about desires. We talk about hope and God and slash, you know, and we talk about music a lot because we both love it. And we're going to do an album together. But that is not just what we talk about, but we talk about our love of things, you know, and not material things, just things of doing things. And it's just. I don't know, we just get along. Except sometimes.

[Glennon Doyle]

How do you guys do conflict when you're not getting along? How do you argue?

[Cher]

Well, I'm the older one.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cher]

So I'm pretty good with conflict because I'm better at it. I've had it longer and I love him, so it's easier even. Even though sometimes it's not. But it's kind of give and take. But I give more and he gives more. He thinks he gives more. I think I give more. So I don't know.

[Amanda Doyle]

I heard you talking about how slow to anger you are, and as I was reading, I was wondering. That's baffling to me, to be slow to anger. When you're thinking about all of your work and you're also thinking about your life, what do you attribute being so slow to anger? And does part of you wish that you were like, when I think about your relationships, do you wish you were faster to anger or do you think it has served you or not served you to be so slow to anger?

[Cher]

Well, I don't know what it's done, but I know that the reason that I'm slow to anger is because of my father. Because everybody else and my father. I never met my father till I was 11. And my mother and my sister are quick to anger. My grandmother's quick to anger. The man who I call my father, quick to anger my real father. Boy, you just. He'll just wait and wait and talk to you. And, you know, he was very easy. He was like. There were two things I learned from my dad. Well, actually three. One, he ate slowly. And my mother used to say, cher, don't dawdle with your food. And I wasn't dawdling. I was just eating slowly. And he had the long fuse. And he had a good temperament in all ways, except he was a heroin addict. So that's always a rough one. And I don't know, I'm so happy that I have some of those things. Oh, and I smile like he does. My mom used to look at me every once in a while going, huh? And I was wondering, what is she thinking? Because I know it doesn't have anything to do. And yet it probably does have something to do with me, so I'm glad that I don't. And people who know me just. But, God, if you really piss me off, run for the hills, okay? Because it takes so long to piss me off. But then, you know, you just don't want to be there.

[Glennon Doyle]

Cher, when's the last time you were really pissed off?

[Cher]

10. When was the last time with Lisa? I honestly can't remember. It was in Sanctuary. That would be like 20. And who was it? Lisa. Lisa, yeah. 20. How many years ago? 27 years ago. Oh, wait, no, I was mad at my sister. Okay. And how long ago was that? 15. So one is 20 something and one's 15.

[Amanda Doyle]

Holy. I don't even understand. But you don't have, like, a sim. You're not pushing it down. Your anger, it just doesn't exist.

[Cher]

It just takes a lot. And I. Wow. It's just. I don't know. I just don't. Maybe I should have more, but I wouldn't like that. And I'm not doing it consciously at all.

[Amanda Doyle]

I think it's beautiful. I'm just jealous.

[Cher]

I just don't have it too much. I can't find it, you know? I mean, like, it comes to me every once in a while, like, every 15 or 25 years. But, oh, no, there was. There was the one about Rosie.

[Amanda Doyle]

Can you tell us one of those three stories?

[Cher]

All right, I'll tell you the Rosie story. So I love Rosie, and she works on the road with us, and I just adore her. Right. And we had this new guy as a road manager. Was that what he was? Yeah, as a roadie. And he didn't think much of us because he had worked in rock and roll and thought we were just idiots. And so one night, he came to pick up everybody from the hotel, and he saw Rosie come to the bus and shut the door on her. And so Rosie called me. So when this guy came in, I pushed him up against the wall and I said, motherfucker, you will be gone when she's still here.

[Glennon Doyle]

God, I love you so much. Oh, of course. Of course. It was a righteous anger. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cher]

But I was pretty much uncontrolled.

[Glennon Doyle]

Interesting.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, I'm glad you picked that one.

[Glennon Doyle]

I want to talk to you, Cher, about women and money for a minute. So I have. There's, like, two favorite sets of words that anyone has ever said that I've ever heard anyone say. And the first set of words is when my children have said no, the second. My second favorite is when my children told me that they loved me. My first favorite set of words that has ever been uttered by a human being is the words, mom, I am a rich man. Yes.

[Cher]

It seems that girls like that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. Okay, so just in case no one has heard it, your mom sits you down and says, cher.

[Cher]

No, we were standing.

[Glennon Doyle]

You were standing. Okay, you tell the story. You tell it. You tell it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cher]

So we're in the kitchen, and we're by the dining room table, which is not in the dining room. That's like the kitchen table. And I was telling her that I wanted to make this movie, but I didn't have enough money and I didn't see where I was going to get it or I couldn't figure it out and I didn't know who to go to, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And my mom said, babe, you should marry a rich man. And I went, mom, I am a rich man.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay?

[Cher]

And the other day, I saw it on a painting, and sometimes I see it on a needle point, like on a. On a pillow.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Cher]

It seems to appeal to us.

[Glennon Doyle]

So you have made and lost and made fortunes. You have supported so many people. You have had times in your life when you've had complete control of your money, and times it's been stolen from you, and times you didn't even know what you made. Share. What do you want women to know about money?

[Cher]

It's hard to learn about money, especially when you're poor. It's really hard because it scares you. And what you have to do is, like, keep your head down and find out what people are doing with it, because, oh, you know, some people are not always good. So you have to try to find out what it means, what your money means, what you're doing, what people are doing to you, because it's not easy.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cher]

Also, I trusted Sunny. Big mistake.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cher]

And I asked him, which was always, like, a huge thing for me. It was like, son, when. Just tell me what day or time or year or situation were we having when you thought it was okay to take all my money? And he said, I always knew you'd.

[Glennon Doyle]

Leave me, which wasn't an answer.

[Cher]

No. Because he didn't have a good one.

[Glennon Doyle]

No. No.

[Amanda Doyle]

Or maybe that was his answer because he knew that you were the prize, you're the talent thing and that. So he was at least going to get the money when you left.

[Cher]

It's kind of rough to. I mean, that's a good answer. In theory, but, you know, it's still bullshit. It's just not good. Because, you know, I was there by his side, working every moment. It wasn't like he deserved it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, God, no.

[Cher]

And to say I did it because I knew you'd always leave me is just bullshit.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's abusive. It's a terrible thing. What was the moment like when you learned that those contracts, that your company did not, in fact, belong to you, that you were contracted to work for a company that was named for you, but you owned 0% of right share enterprises? Share enterprises. He owned 95%, and the lawyer owned 5, and you owned 0. And that you could only work for that company?

[Cher]

Yes. That made me really, really angry and disappointed in him, because it wasn't that he was just taking my money. He was making it so I couldn't earn any. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cher]

And David told me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, yeah. That was a beautiful story.

[Cher]

Yeah. David just said, sweetheart, this is not good. It's. You know, we have to do something about this. But it took us kind of a long time, and finally my lawyer said, you have to get divorced, and then you could break the contract. But when I broke the contract, there was no money to get, and the judge made me pay him $2 million. He just said, miss, in America, we don't welsh on contracts. We don't try to pull out of contracts. And I said, well, I didn't say it, but I thought, well, what do you do about people who steal your money? How does that grab you?

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, in America, we let husbands steal money from their wives.

[Cher]

That's what we do, right? Okay, fine. So then I went to work, and.

[Glennon Doyle]

You went to work. Yeah. And you always went to work.

[Cher]

But then at the end, I said, son, I can't do this all by myself. I just can't do it. So you're gonna have to help me, because I know I'm killing myself out here, and you're gonna have to help me because you won't get your money very soon if you don't give me a hand.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, we just are so delighted to ask you. As queer women and queer advocates, we are big fans of Chaz, who you have called the strongest person in your family, which is so beautiful. Talk to us a little bit. We have so many listeners, because we are queer whose children are coming out or transitioning, and it can be just a wonderful but scary time for a parent where so much is gained and some things are lost, and it's. It can be confusing and hard. Can you talk to us A little bit how that has gone for you and what you would say to parents.

[Cher]

I was terrible. I was terrible. Okay. I was just terrible. And I was terrible. Chaz said, I'm gay. I was terrible. It was just. It was ridiculous. And I don't want to support all my friends. I mean, disappoint. But I was really nervous about what Chaz would face. Yes. And I couldn't. I couldn't do anything. But then we were going to Al Anon together, and we've been going to Al Anon for a while, and then Chaz came in and said, I want to do this. And I was like, okay. But then after that, I started to get really nervous.

[Amanda Doyle]

After he told you about the transition?

[Cher]

No.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh.

[Cher]

After he said, this is what I want to do.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay.

[Cher]

And you'll notice that in the beginning, I called Chaz. Chaz.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Cher]

And I got an okay. So it was really rough. And then. Then it just was fine. And I don't know what I had to go through, but now it's great. But I don't know what made me go through all that stuff. I know. I was really nervous about what was going to happen.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Cher]

I was really frightened about what would happen and what kind of backlash he would have, you know, and at that time, too, it wasn't like everybody was doing this. You know, it was like there were people who were transitioning, but I was nervous for Chaz.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. I think that is so fair. And we talk about it all the time, that it's often not that you're scared of your kid, you're scared for your kid, and you're scared about the world. And I don't think it's disappointing that you say that. I think it's so honest, and it's a gift because it gives parents permission to not get it, nail it the first time, but to keep trying.

[Cher]

Well, yes. And I have to say, I was just frightened. I was just frightened. You know, when I think about it, I wasn't the person that I should have been. I wasn't the person that I wanted to be, or maybe not wanted to be. I didn't know how to be, maybe. But everyone would expect me to, you know, go, oh, yeah, that's great. But now, you know, we. We have a great relationship, really great fun, and we work together in a project on a couple of projects, and it's just. It's great. You know, Chad is a great person. Chaz is so much more together than I am.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[E]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[E]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[E]

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[Glennon Doyle]

What have you found to be the hardest thing about parenting?

[Cher]

Oh, God. What? Not screwing it up. Oh. And I do. All the time. I'm a mess sometimes, you know? And my kids have had to put up with so much for me, you know, it's not. It's not easy being the child of a famous person. I think the best time we had when Chaz was young was Chaz and Gina, her best friend. And when we were on the road, they were working for me in Vegas and they were having the best time and we were all having a great time and l was little and we just were out there in Vegas and having the best time. Except it was a bitch in Vegas then, and everyone said, oh, Cher went to the elephant's graveyard. Oh, my God.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, Cher. What? Okay, give us some advice.

[Amanda Doyle]

Now.

[Cher]

Everybody and their brother wants to be in Las Vegas.

[Amanda Doyle]

And everyone's wearing the naked dress at the Met, and everyone's showing their belly button. You know who did it first?

[Abby Wambach]

Cher did it.

[Cher]

I probably didn't do it. I just did it.

[Amanda Doyle]

No, you did. You were the first one to show your belly button on tv.

[Cher]

Oh, no, I know that. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And the Met dress, I must say, no one's ever done it like Bob, because I was naked under it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, God.

[Amanda Doyle]

It was just a work of goddamn art.

[Cher]

Well, he's an artist.

[Glennon Doyle]

Speaking of everyone saying that you are going to the elephant graveyard, tell us how to survive being any sort of woman in the world with people saying all the shit that they're always saying. How does one. If you can do what you have done and been so excellent for so long in the face of all of the shit, how.

[Cher]

You know, I just wouldn't give up. I just wouldn't stop. I didn't know how to do anything else. And I have this picture in my mind that I realized it's like. I'm like a bumper car, and if I hit a wall, I'm going to back up and I'm going to go in another direction. And that's all that was left for me. I didn't really know another way. I didn't know how to do anything else. And so, like, when I hit one bad thing, I went to New York and became an actress. Yeah, I don't know how I did it. It was like such a fluke.

[Glennon Doyle]

A fluke. And then you're. You are the most amazing actor on the planet. Like, you just kept fluking your way into being the most amazing.

[Cher]

Yeah, well, no, getting my first job was really an accident. And I have to thank my mom because I'd gone to do an audition for Joe Papp, and he said, you know, Cheryl, you're really good. But. Well, first I got to do an audition for Mike Nichols, and he didn't have all that much to say. And I said to him, you know what? I'm really, really talented. And one day you're going to be. So.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, I loved that.

[Cher]

Right. So Frances says, if you're going to be an actress. And so did Shelley Winters get your ass to New York? So I got my ass to New York. Did the audition. It wasn't that good, actually. It wasn't not good. It was quite good. But he said, and I can't tell you, but there are two kinds of women, and you're not the one I need for this part. So, anyway, so I get to New York, and Chaz is living with Lee Strasberg and Anna, Lee and Anna and their kids. And so Randy and I, who was also living with them, Randy and I were going to do this thing for Joe Papp. And so he went up to Lee and he said, lee, Cher wants to know, would you give her some help on this? And he said, cher knows too much already. And he turned around and walked away. And I just. Well, that's not very nice. So anyway, so we go to do the thing for Joe Papp, and then when I come out, there's a thing. You know those memo things that say somebody called.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Cher]

So Robert Altman had called me. And the thing was that my mom and Catherine had been friends and Robert, too. So my mom knew I was in New York, and I'd given her my number and all that. So my mom calls, but she's gotten my number mixed up with Robert, Catherine's number. And my mom calls their house and she said, hi, Cher there? And the guy is kind of not so nice. He said, no. And she said, oh, well, I thought Cher was there. And then he said, what would Cher be doing here? Then she went, wait a minute, Robert. And he said, Georgia? And she said, oh, I thought, oh, I got. I screwed this thing up. So he said, what's Cher doing here? And she said, well, she wants to be an actress. And he said, ah, okay. So in a little while, he calls me and said, so your mom says, you want to be an actress? And I went, yeah. And he said, well, I'm going to send you a script. I'm not offering it to you, but I'm sending it to you. I said, okay. And so it gets there late. And then he calls me and I went, okay, I know the part that you want me to play, but I can't do it. And he said, do you have a job? And I said, no. He said, well, then pass over her. So I went over and then I said, well, you know, I'm dyslexic, and I could read or I can act, but I can't do them both. And he said, I don't care. I just want to hear how your voice sounds. And I said, all right, but I can tell you I can do one of the Parts. And he said, all right. He was exhausted and exasperated and whatever. So we sat down. All the women were there, Sandy and Karen and Sudie, and we were all sitting down on the floor. And so I read the part that I knew I couldn't do, and then I read the part that I knew I could do. And Sandy said it was the worst reading I had ever heard in my life. But she said, from the first moment you started it, I was fascinated. And then. So I said, okay, well, that's always good. And then Robert asked me. He said, you're right. You can't play that part. But you can't play that part. And then we're talking, and we're talking, and he said, what did you think of Popeye? And I said, I thought you ruined it. And then everybody who was in the room turned. Like when a. When a shark is coming, and fish are just fish, you know, they're just there swimming, and then they all turn in the middle sideways, and you can't see them, and they're gone. So anybody. Everybody was like, gone. And then he said, God damn it. Everybody says that. So anyway, so I got the part, and then I go on Broadway, and then on a Wednesday, so I'm doing my matinee, and I was. I love doing matinees. So I come off stage, and Mike is there. And so he said, you were right. You're talented, and I'm really sorry. And the truth was, I'd broken up with my boyfriend, and he had come back and was backstage, and I was really more interested in seeing my boyfriend than getting a part in this movie. So then he said, it's with Meryl Streep. And I went, okay. And then I get back to my apartment. My sister's there, and I went, jesus Christ, I can't do a movie with Meryl Streep. And I'm packing, and then I start unpacking, and then my sister starts packing me. And so I end up getting the job, and then I end up going to Texas.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you love acting, or do you love singing more? Or what do you love the most? What's the art form that you love the most to do?

[Cher]

They're different. Acting is concentrating, and singing is not. Singing is just. You stand on the stage and you just let your voice come out, and it can be really big, and it can be soft, it can be whatever. And then acting is like getting kind of small inside and then letting things come out. And they can come out loud, and they can come out angry. They can come out any way, but it's more of a internal thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, that's beautiful. Okay, I have one last question. What's your next dream?

[Cher]

Oh, my next dream is this album I'm gonna do with Alexander because I shouldn't be singing at this age because it's not easy, and I didn't know I would be. When I made the Christmas album, I didn't think I could sing anymore. And then all of a sudden I could. And then now I just want to be able to do it again because the songs he got, you know, he used to be vice president of Def Jam, so the songs he got are so genius.

[Glennon Doyle]

How wonderful. Well, we can't wait for that. Your book is beautiful. Also, are the other two parts coming out? Like, how will that happen?

[Cher]

Well, there's not two parts coming out. There's another part coming out.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, and when is that coming out?

[Cher]

I have no idea.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

When she gets to it. Don't push her.

[Cher]

I'm just saying she's doing a lot next Christmas.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. Oh, great. Okay. Wonderful.

[Cher]

Long time, doesn't it?

[Glennon Doyle]

It will be worth the wait. Cher, thank you for never giving up like you just said. Thank you for being just a gorgeous example of freedom and courage your whole life. This hour has been an honor for us, and we are forever grateful to you.

[Cher]

Thank you. But courage has not been the strongest thing. It's motivating. It's just moving forward. You know, I never thought of it as courage. It was just not giving up.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's even more inspiring because then you don't have to have the courage. You can just not stop while you're scared.

[Cher]

You just don't give up, Right? You just don't give up.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you so much, Cher.

[Cher]

Bye. Bye. Bye, Cher.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you. I never thought I'd be able to say that. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dena Kleiner and Bill Schultz.