FUN: What the hell is it and why do we need it? (Best Of)

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things: Episode Summary

Title: FUN: What the Hell Is It and Why Do We Need It? (Best Of)
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Release Date: April 5, 2025

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Introduction

In this heartfelt and introspective episode of We Can Do Hard Things, host Glennon Doyle, alongside her wife Abby Wambach and sister Amanda Doyle, delve into the concept of fun. The discussion explores the elusive nature of fun, its significance in our lives, and the societal and personal barriers that hinder our ability to experience genuine joy.

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Defining Fun

Glennon Doyle opens the conversation admitting her struggle with understanding fun, stating at [03:50], "I know nothing about fun. I am unfun." This vulnerability sets the stage for a deep exploration of what fun truly means.

Abby Wambach defines fun as "the experience of joy" and distinguishes it from activities with a predetermined outcome. At [18:45], she explains, "For me, fun is the experience of joy. And sometimes that means you don't know what the outcome is."

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Personal Experiences with Fun

The hosts share personal anecdotes to illustrate their relationship with fun:

• Abby’s Competitive Nature: Abby discusses how she integrates competition into mundane tasks to make them enjoyable. At [19:16], she shares, "Sometimes when I have to do a chore of some sort, I weave in some semblance of fun, some sort of competition."

• Glennon’s Struggle: Glennon admits her difficulty in associating fun with purposeless activities, contrasting it with her understanding of rest and work. At [20:05], she states, "I understand what rest is. I understand what work is. I kind of understand what self-care is. But this idea of fun... I don't understand it."

• Amanda’s Role: Amanda highlights the strength and organizational skills she brings to the family, emphasizing the mutual reliance among the trio. At [06:55], she notes, "She's the strength. She is the person who makes everything less confusing because she's smarter than all of us."

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Gender and Cultural Conditioning on Fun

A significant portion of the discussion addresses how societal norms and gender roles impact the ability to experience fun:

• Cultural Expectations: Glennon reflects on how women are often conditioned to prioritize productivity and caretaking over personal joy. At [24:11], she muses, "Does fun require some kind of being unselfconscious? Does fun require losing yourself and like not worrying about how you appear?"

• Internalized Misogyny: The hosts explore how successful and happy women may face backlash due to internalized societal expectations. At [60:46], Glennon asserts, "The happier, the more joyful, the more successful, the more bold a man is, the more the world likes and trusts him. And the more successful, confident, bold and happy and free a woman is, the less we like and trust her."

• Impact on Relationships: Abby discusses the jealousy that can arise when one person in a trio feels their bond is less obligatory compared to others. At [10:07], she shares, "I feel sometimes jealous of sister because she can't not be your sister."

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Strategies to Rediscover Fun

The hosts propose actionable steps to reclaim fun in their lives:

• Incorporating Music: Both Glennon and Abby emphasize the transformative power of music in evoking joy and breaking free from mental loops. At [52:15], Abby shares, "It's taking us out of the trap of our heads."

• Creating Joyful Moments: Glennon suggests integrating fun into daily routines without the pressure of productivity. At [64:41], she recommends, "We're gonna listen to music this week... to awaken this fun self inside of us."

• Challenging Societal Norms: They encourage listeners to redefine fun on their own terms rather than conforming to societal expectations. At [65:47], Glennon states, "Make a list of jams for yourself. Of fun jams."

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Listener Questions

Question from Sarah ([44:00]):
“I'm a wife, sister, daughter, mother, and healthcare worker. When I think about my life, it strikes me that I've never known how to have fun... What do you think?”

Hosts' Response:

• Glennon Doyle empathizes with Sarah’s struggle, suggesting that fun isn’t lost but rather hibernating due to neglect. At [48:10], she theorizes, "My theory is not that our fun self is completely dead... she just decided to go dormant when we stopped feeding her."

• Abby Wambach encourages active participation in joyful activities, referencing her own experience with music as a catalyst for fun. At [52:44], she shares, "These interstitial, like, joy moments that otherwise would have not been the joy moments."

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a challenge to listeners to actively incorporate fun into their daily lives, primarily through music, to reconnect with their authentic selves. The hosts reiterate the importance of embracing joy as a counterbalance to life’s hardships, emphasizing that fun is not a luxury but a necessary component of a fulfilling life.

Key Takeaways:

• Fun is a personal and experiential form of joy that doesn't require a specific outcome.
• Societal and gendered expectations often suppress women’s ability to experience and express fun.
• Rediscovering fun involves intentional actions, such as integrating music and redefining joy on one’s own terms.
• Embracing fun is essential for mental well-being and combating feelings of depression and malaise.

Notable Quotes:

• Abby Wambach ([18:45]): "For me, fun is the experience of joy. And sometimes that means you don't know what the outcome is."
• Glennon Doyle ([60:10]): "I think the truth is, the happier, the more joyful, the more successful, the more bold a man is, the more the world likes and trusts him. And the more successful, confident, bold and happy and free a woman is, the less we like and trust her."
• Abby Wambach ([52:16]): "It's like it takes us out of the interior and enlivens some part of us."

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Final Thoughts:

We Can Do Hard Things effectively navigates the complex terrain of understanding and embracing fun, particularly from a female perspective shaped by societal expectations. Through honest dialogue and personal reflections, the hosts provide valuable insights and encouragement for listeners seeking to infuse more joy into their lives.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Hello everybody. Thank you for coming back to Weekend Do Hard Things. I am really thrilled about this episode because it's about fun. Okay, so last night I sat down in preparation for this introduction here and I wrote down every single thing I know about fun. And in front of me I now have a blank sheet of paper. I know nothing about fun. I am un fun. And so for today's episode we have brought in our resident fun expert. She is my wife. Her name is Abby Wambach. She has found a way to make a living playing games. One in particular is called soccer. And so she is here today to Talk to us all about fun and challenge us to have some of it in our lives. Let's get started. All right, so this is already my favorite episode of We Can Do Hard Things because my two favorite people are here. Not just my one favorite sister, but my other favorite person, who is my wife, Abby Wambach Woo hoo is joining us today. Hi, babe, how are ya?

[Abby Wambach]

Hi, love, how are you?

Hi.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm.

[Abby Wambach]

So how's it going?

[Glennon Doyle]

It's good. I'm just really excited you're here. And actually I feel a little bit nervous right now. Just like seeing you and hearing your voice right there, that's weird.

[Abby Wambach]

Why?

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't know. I don't know. Okay. Anyway, you're so cute.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, the people can't see the cuteness.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know. I feel sad for them. I'll describe her. She's just so. She's just got a Sporty Spice tank top on and she's got her little headphones on, and she's just a beautiful human being. So before we get into.

[Abby Wambach]

I'd like the record to show that I sister also look very cute today.

You do. You do.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're wearing royal blue today, which is so strange because you and I always only ever wear black. So it feels very special today.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, well, laundry.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, you did some laundry. Okay. So before we get into our heart.

[Abby Wambach]

She just loves me more than you, babe. She loves me more than you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, that's a good transition into what we're about to talk about right now. Thank you for that segue. Because before we get into our hard thing, I think we need to just talk to you about the relationship between the three of us, because I think it's unique maybe. And so how would you describe the little triangle that we have here? This relationship between the three of us where all we do all day ever is just talk to each other?

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, so here's the thing. When I stepped into your family, and I do feel like it was a stepping into the very first correspondence I had with sister was this, don't ever lie to Glennon. Now that taught me a lot about you. Glennon also taught me a lot about sister because she inadvertently, I think, was telling me also, don't lie to me. Right? Because this family revolves around integrity. Like, that's like the core value. But I don't think that I've met people who are more integrated with what's going on in their insides and what goes on in their outsides. Now I've also never met more hard working people. In fact, it's one of our five fights that sometimes I like to lay down in the middle of the day. And, Glennon, that's not something that you understand. I also probably would think that Amanda doesn't understand this either.

[Glennon Doyle]

Amanda doesn't lay down. She's like one of those people who just goes to sleep and hangs herself on the wall with a computer attached to her face so she can go through some emails in the middle of the night. Right, Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. But here's the thing. I. I'm fascinated by the two of you because first of all, I love you so much, and I have never felt so trusted and taken care of in the same breath. It's like, because you guys operate. Operate with this integrity so intact, it is at the core of everything that we participate ourselves in, whether it's a card game. Although Glenn and you do ch.

[Glennon Doyle]

Sometimes I do cheat at. I just want it to be over. I hate games of all kinds. I don't care about them. Tell, Babe. Tell Sister what you told me on a walk yesterday about the one thing that you feel jealous about with Sister. Because it was an interesting. Yeah, it was a fascinating thing coming together, the three of us. Because when I married a man, it's not like it was a threat to our sisterhood. We were just. It was like, so what? But, like, when I brought another girl to us.

[Abby Wambach]

Woman. We gotta stop saying that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, sorry. Sorry. When I brought a woman to our sisterhood, Sister, it was like, wait, what? Like, did you feel any threat to our sisterhood when Abby arrived on the scene?

[Abby Wambach]

Shockingly, I didn't. I really didn't. And in. And I Understanding myself, I would think that I would have, but I didn't. I feel like it very quickly became. And I think that's a testament to Abby actually completely the way that she showed up in our world with this appreciation for what we had and wanting to be there for you and wanting to respect our relationship. And so that was completely her. But very quickly, very quickly, we three became one of those, you know, those examples in nature of the. Of symbiosis, like the hippo and the oxpecker, or like the shrimp and the koyafish, where it's like these odd pairings of species, but they go through their whole lives together because, like, the shrimp can't see and the f. Needs someone to build it a shelter. And. And then.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that's what they do.

[Abby Wambach]

It's just like we're three totally different species, but each of us has something that the other two can't offer. And now we're just, like, in this state of mutual reliance for life. That's how you are.

[Glennon Doyle]

What are our gifts and challenges? Like, if one of us is the shrimp. Like, what we have talked about. What if we had a. A. A home flipping show? Remember we talked about that, like, three of us? Yes. Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Here's the home flipping show. The home flipping show is like, Abby's like, I will. We will source the. Like the. The Gucci countertops from granite. From Sardonia or something.

[Glennon Doyle]

She's such a.

[Abby Wambach]

She's so fancy. And I would be like, I'm gonna get us some cabinets from Goodwill, because we can really. We can repaint those in a jif. And Glennon would be like, I just need all of it to be outsourced. And I need soft. Just soft things. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And good energy.

[Abby Wambach]

And good energy. The light needs to be. I need to know that the neighbors are, like, really kind to their children. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's about how it feels. Sister, Tell sister what you are jealous of.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I just have to give her credit for nailing that description of us three different species, that when you combined us all together, it's like we make. We make the perfect pairs. Or triple. I wouldn't know how to say that. Well, what I was telling you on the walk, because you like to talk about everything that you're going to do, right. And you were about to do an episode on something or other. So we were having this conversation about jealousy, and it came up. You said, you know, you're not really jealous. You don't really have jealousy in you. And I was like, well, I do. I just, like, deal with it differently. And I was talking about how I feel sometimes jealous of sister because she can't not be your sister. Like, she's tied to you by blood forever, and you have to choose to be with me forever. It's like a choice, you know? And I know that we're tied energetically and legally, but you can always break that. Like, you can't break up with your sister. And that gives me so much jealousy for Sissy.

That's amazing. Well, I will have you know that I do know people who have broken up with their sister.

[Glennon Doyle]

You can. You can break up with your sister. Some people have to break up with their sisters.

[Abby Wambach]

That's a real thing out in the world.

True. However, you're not the kind of sister that people break up with Sissy.

[Glennon Doyle]

Nope, she's not. I'm the luckiest in the entire world.

[Abby Wambach]

And for the people out there listening, Amanda Doyle Glennon's sister is the taker care of our family. And not just Glennon and I, but, like, of our children. She's always holding everybody in place somehow. Like, she is the strength. She is the. The. The. The person who makes everything less confusing because she's smarter than all of us. No offense, Glennon, but she, like, legally takes care of us because she's smart with the law organizationally, and then contractually and. And then emotionally, she's always there. Like the other day I said, you know, I want to get sister a sister somehow.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Ye. Like Abby says to me. This is what she says to me, sister, you were going through something. And Abby goes, do you know what sister needs? She needs a sister.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And she's looking at me saying these words. I'm like, what the hell do you think I am?

[Abby Wambach]

And you need Amanda kind of sister.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly. She meant she needs, like, a bulldog. Like someone who shows up no matter what, who always knows what to do. Right? I mean, I don't always know what to do. I just. It's. It's a beautiful thing, the symbiosis between the three of us. Easter is right around the corner, and it is one of my favorite holidays. We always have a big family brunch with my parents and Sissy and some of the kids at our house. And with such a big group, there's a lot of prep that goes into it, mostly by Abby. But Macy's helps Abby prepare for Easter because they've got everything we need for hosting, decorating, and, of course, shopping for the perfect Easter outfit. Abby, tell the pod squad what you're most excited to buy for this Easter.

The Le Creuset mini Coquette.

[Abby Wambach]

It's a dish like a Dutch oven.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, it's those fancy dishes you love best. Let's talk about those Easter outfits. Loving the tweeds and florals for spring. Macy's has so many adorable options. I did see this flowy one state dress and maybe some kitten heels from Kate Spade. And don't forget accessories. Macy's has the best selection of sandals, handbags, fashion, jewelry, and watches. Plus they've got everything you need for your Easter table, like dining, decor, food, prep essentials, and cute toys for the kids. Shop in store or online@macy's.com now. Cuz Easter prep starts here.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Okay, I'm going to throw a little curveball and my apologies. What? We in the sports world say curveball or audible. Okay, you know what those mean. You do? Your dad was a football guy.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's when you change plans at the last minute. Which, by the way, I'm really, really open to and easy breezy about. So I'm not freaking out at all right now.

[Abby Wambach]

But it's like we talked for six hours about what we're supposed to Abby told me what Abby D already told me what we're talking about, sister. So there you go.

Yeah. So here is the deal. I'm having an intervention with you two because I'm not bringing my hard thing. I'm bringing something that I notice is both yalls hard thing. And we talk about it. We have talked about it. We have different opinions about this subject. And what I'm here to intervene with you two about is fun.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, God.

[Abby Wambach]

Having fun, defining fun, Deciding what you each individually feel like is fun. I mean, this is an intervention, and I'm not standing up from this seat until we figure it out for both of you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is this because of the freaking garage this weekend?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Yes, because. Tell the story, honey.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, on Sunday morning, we had some time, which is weird, right? We just had some free time. And Abby was about to go do something, play golf or something, and she said, okay, I want you to tell me, what do you want to do for fun today? And I thought about it for a while, and then what did I suggest?

[Abby Wambach]

She said, well, let's go clean out the garage. Do you want to do that with me? That sounds like fun. And I said that. That. That. That is not fun. That's just you.

[Glennon Doyle]

You got really upset, actually.

[Abby Wambach]

I was like, what are you talking about? Like, no, that's a chore with, like, an outcome that'll make you feel good. But surely it's not fun.

[Glennon Doyle]

What is fun? So, babe, what is your. This is what I really don't understand. Like, I truly have not. I don't understand what fun is. I understand what rest is. I understand what work is. I kind of understand what self care is. But this idea of fun of which you speak is not something I've grasped. So can you define for me what fun is to you?

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, so I know that everybody's going to have their own opinions and definitions in this, but for me personally, fun is the experience of joy. And sometimes that means you don't know what the outcome is. For me, I grew up competitive. I'm a competitor by nature. And so anytime I can weave in some sort of competition, which is why I like walking with you into the grocery store and beating you by one step.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's pause fun, y'all. I will be getting out of my car to go into the grocery store, and the next thing I know, Abby's gone. Why is she gone? Because she's running ahead of me so she can beat me into the grocery store as if I give a crap. That's the thing. I don't understand carrot who wins things, but I truly don't understand caring.

[Abby Wambach]

Would you agree, though, that nobody really wants to go to the grocery store?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. So sometimes when I have to do a Chore of some sort. I weave in some semblance of fun, some sort of competition, so that I can talk myself or, or, or, or fool myself into believing that, oh, this, this could be fun on some level.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, sister, do you understand what fun is? What's your. What's a definition for you?

[Abby Wambach]

She doesn't either.

Well, I like to put the fun in function. So I am. I find a lot of fun in things that are connected to some utility, some productivity, some. Something that has some outcome from which I will derive joy. But so. And actually the process. The process of something, you know, like I like to go treasure hunting and find things that is fun for me, but I like it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like at thrift stop shops, you're talking about.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Treasure hunt. That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

So. But unfortunately, Abby told me last night we were going to be talking about this today, and apparently that those things don't count because play and fun by nature has to be like, purposeless. Has to be. Yes. It has to be done for its own sake, not connected to an outcome that you already know. So, like, find. Yeah, finding a $10 mid century dresser at Goodwill is not the definition of fun, which is highly unfortunate. So I don't know, actually, but I, I do derive joy from things. Like, I'm not a joyless person.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right, exactly.

[Abby Wambach]

The idea of doing something that is, by definition purposeless is, to me, like, hilarious. Although I did think I, I'm just like, why would one. One can't know why one would do that. But I did think about it for a very long time and try to identify any single thing that I could connect with there. And I know what it is. Riding roller coasters. Oh, like being in an amusement park for any reason like that. It's an actual. I find it delightful. I love to be on it. Yeah, that is. I mean, I've done it once in the past 20 years, but when I think of like that, I get that that is a fun thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Huh? But what about the rest of the amusement park experience? No, no, no.

[Abby Wambach]

The people, the lights people.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, okay, okay, okay. Can we just get deep for a second? Because I actually was talking about this with a few friends recently and it made me feel better because none of. Babe, you were there. We were talking to Karen and Jessica and none of them also understood what fun was. And so I thought, wait, why do women not understand fun? Right? So we started talking about, is it because we're mothers? Is it because we're caretakers? Is it because we have so much to do that we always feel like something has to be productive. And then we decided, no, that it's earlier than that. It's part of it. I'm not saying all of it, but part of it is being raised as girls in this culture where first of all, a lot of people find sport. You're talking about competitiveness and sports, people find fun in that. But girls are kind of teased early out of losing themselves in sport, right? We're kind of. You run like a girl, you're teased, and you start to feel self conscious, right? That girls are trained to care about how we appear to other people or whether we're looking desirable or looking attractive or are we fitting in. And I think, does fun require some kind of being unselfconscious? Does fun require losing yourself and like not worrying about how you appear? And that is what is trained out of girls so early. And babe, I feel like you, for some reason, that conditioning did not sink in for you, which makes me feel like this is a difference the. Between the two of us. So can you talk about that? Like, do you feel that you just didn't get. You're not a person who worries a lot about how you look or you're. You're not self conscious.

[Abby Wambach]

I don't care. Like, my thought process of what the out world, the world out there thinks of me is so little. Like, I don't think about what other people. I mean, I care about what you think of me, honey, but. And what sister thinks of me on some level. But the reality is growing up the way that I did, I was challenging from the very beginning the way that I was feeling on the inside. I didn't know that it was about my gayness. I didn't know that it was about being an inherent and born feminist. Like, I didn't know any of those things when I was young. All I knew is just that when I went out into the recess and got on the playground, that I wanted to play as rough and hard and have as much fun as I saw the boys having, right? And it's like, even though you may not have participated in the monkey bars or whatever it was on, on the playground, I wanted to have the ability to do that. And I knew that I could do it at the same level that they could. And so I think because I was also naturally gifted as an athlete, that gave me some leveling of social dynamics as a really young kid, which probably affected the way that I view the world. You know, it's like, I mean, right now the thing That I have the most fun doing is play golf. And, like, I think both of you would want to, like, stab your eyes with forks out. Having to go play a round of golf together.

[Glennon Doyle]

We did it once. We did it once together. Golf, the game that is so incredibly big. Boring. But don't worry, because it's also really stressful at the same time and only.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, six hours long.

[Glennon Doyle]

And six freaking hours long.

[Abby Wambach]

Not the way I play it. But thank you for bashing so much of my fun, honey.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. But, yeah, but it's fun for you. Can you describe what's happening in your body? Because I'm really trying to, like, I understand that. For me, like, getting a massage is fun. Does that count?

[Abby Wambach]

It does, because if something sparks joy, it's like the Marie Kondo thing, right? Like, if you hold something, if you're experiencing something. The thing is, I don't know if you and sister really, truly have experienced pure joy without, like, some sort of conclusion or a required outcome. You know, it's like going on the boat. And for you, Glennon, I know, like, being with the kids and having, like, a day that is full of complete life. Like, I know that that fills you up, so. And everybody's different. Like, you're not going to have the same kind fun as. As I am, but at the end of the day, you have to figure out what fun is to you so that when you do walk away from work life, you don't have to totally re. Reform and transition into a complete unknown. You have set up some foundational building blocks that will give you a little bit of confidence heading into that next part of your life.

I feel like that's. I feel like there's two kind of tracks of what we're talking about, and both are so important. Like, the. What you're talking about, Abby, is play. Like, play when you were growing up and the need to be. To be connected inside your body but unselfconscious of how other people are viewing your body is all about play. It's physical. You're getting lost in it. And I feel like for many, many girls, we've become so aware that our value is connected to how our bodies are perceived, that we. We very early lose the ability to become unselfconscious of our bodies. So that's like play. So there's a. There's a whole gendered space there. But then there's this whole idea of fun, too, which I think also we. At least I feel. Glenn, I'm interested to hear from you. I don't feel like we have great models for that either. Like the. Even the idea of fun as separate from play. So maybe it's not physical, maybe you're not totally losing yourself in it, but just like your preference of what you desire to be doing with your time is a whole nother thing. Like I'm. So we grew up sailing on our little sailboat all the time and at my every weekend, all weekend. Did mom like sailing on the sailboat or did she ever consider whether it was relevant if she liked it? Like, did she like our house being decorated with Civil War memorabilia and duck decoys and paintings of ships? Or did she never think whether I prefer this is relevant to the conversation? And I think that's how I. That's how I got to a place when I was, you know, 26 and divorced and trying to figure out what is fun to me. That I literally had no idea.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's so true. All we do is decide whatever the person we're trying to have a relationship with thinks is fun, and then we decide that that thing is fun.

[Abby Wambach]

I mean, I spent my honeymoon on a fishing charter. Okay. It never occurred to me to be like, is this my preferred way of spending on a tiny sun burning boat for eight hours with a stranger for. I mean, it never occurred to me because. But that's deeper than that. It's like, it's the decision to try to acclimate to what is fun to your person because what you do, the outcome of that you like, you like this happy arrangement with this person where they're happy and that makes you happy. But it never. Like that's acclimating to that set of fun is so much easier and more palatable than. And natural to me, frankly, than determining what my fun would look like and then asking for accommodation to what that looks like.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, exactly, because it's more acceptable culturally too. I mean, I remember I'm having a flash right now of sitting on a couch. In college, I used to spend a good amount of time watching my boyfriend play video games. Yep. Okay. Watching him. That was what I would have told you I was having fun doing. Like, and it wasn't weird. It wasn't weird for girls to sit and watch their boyfriends play video games.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, it is.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so weird. But I'm just saying, like, it wasn't perceived as weird.

[Abby Wambach]

It wasn't uncommon.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, right, but, but if that were flipped, right, like, would my boyfriend have like, watched me do yoga or like, none of that that would have been less normal. Right. And also we're always saying, like, what you just said, babe, you know, when we're together with the family, I would probably tell you that what's fun for me is to do whatever my kids think is fun. But that's also not fun.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right for me. Yeah. It's because it's basing somebody else's opinion about what they want to be doing and taking it on as your own. So I think that you guys have a fun, stunted growth because of the way that you were raised on a sailboat, truly. And I think that because the way that maybe you've perceived the modeling of what being a good wife is, it's like you have to ask the people around you, like, what is fun? I mean, honey, you actually ask me that all the time. Like, what do I want to do today?

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, yeah, what.

[Abby Wambach]

What do I think is fun? What do I want?

[Glennon Doyle]

What do I like? What's fun?

[Abby Wambach]

What I want to actually say is. Have you ever thought about why watching our women's national soccer team is so interesting for women?

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, God. It makes, you know. You know how emotional it makes me. It makes me so emotional.

[Abby Wambach]

Why?

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm so glad you brought that up. It's because watching women use their bodies to compete instead of perform to the way they just try so hard and don't give a. What it looks like. They're not trying to be pretty. They're trying to be fierce. They're sweating. And it could. They're doing it for themselves and for each other, and it could. They could give a shit what anybody else is seeing.

[Abby Wambach]

It's.

[Glennon Doyle]

There's. They're completely lost. They're using their bodies in a way that I have never seen modeled for me. I mean, you're right. That's a beautiful. It. It affects me deeply. It moves me deeply. Even watching my girls watch or my son watch, that moves me, both men and women.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. A lot of times I've been told, you know, I just. I don't know why I love watching you so much. And a lot of times it's covered up with this whole winning thing, which helps. I do understand that. But I think it's way deeper than that. I think for women, it's like this. This awareness. Like this a great, deep learning about what could be. And then for men, too, because they also are conditioned to believe that, like, women don't know how to have fun because we never have been given the chance or taken the opportunity to have fun. I think that. That's why I confuse both of you so much, is like, all I'm looking for in life is to have fun. It's. It's why. It's why I turned into an alcoholic. It's the reason why. It's the reason why it took me so long to get sober, because I, quite frankly, I thought that all of my fun would be zapped, like, just gone instantly as soon as I stopped drinking. But the reality is you have to create new ways of having fun without drinking, obviously. But I don't know. I just feel we all have to do a little bit of digging on you individually. On me individually. What do I experience as joy and what I do now is different than I did 10 years ago will be different. What I do in 10 years. But the experience of it, like, I even enjoy doing something new for the first time just to see if it's going to be fun.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know, it's so wild. I think it's an interesting thought and challenge for us all to think about a little bit, because when you even look at what's modeled for women as fun in the world, it's always like, let's go get a manicure. Or like, something that's based on what the way the world perceives us instead of the experience we're having. Right. Or the idea of, let's just. The wine culture. Right? Let's just all just get drunk. Which doesn't really teach us anything more about ourselves either. Right. So. All right, let's sign off here. We're gonna have to take a break, and we'll get into some hard questions. Can you think of anything fun that you want to try in the next month? And I want to ask you a question, babe. Is reading and thinking about the book. Does that count as fun? Because I feel like that's great fun to me. That is one source of fun I've always had since I was little. Does that count?

[Abby Wambach]

I think so. I absolutely think so. I think that seeing how you devour books, you don't just sit. You're not just doing it to pass the time. You're actually interested in what's happening and what you're listening, what you're reading, and. And then when you go on your walks, you're thinking about the thing that you just read. Like that, to you, I think, is actual joy.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. And also, I thought of another one. How about going to an art museum or a concert, but not with a ton of people. Just like a few people at the concert. And I thought of another One what if in the future we have some kind of social situation? Because I'm always about to be social. Like I'm about to figure the social thing out. It's probably going to happen next year. I'm about to have friends. So I can picture a scenario that would be fun, where we are in our living room and there's a few other people there. And we know these people well. Okay? And they might be all women or there might be a couple men, but the men that are there have no toxic energy. Okay? They might be gay, or they might just be these unicorn men that have no toxic energy and they're there. And we are all talking about, like funny but cool but serious things. We're not just talking about bullshit. And people who drink are drinking and people who don't drink are not drinking. But the people who are drinking are not getting wasted and being annoying. They're just drinking. And then everyone leaves at 8:45.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, so, honey, can that happen?

[Glennon Doyle]

Because that sounds fun.

[Abby Wambach]

I think it could happen, but I.

[Glennon Doyle]

Don'T want to worry that they're not going to leave. I want it to be understood.

[Abby Wambach]

Stop, stop, stop, stop.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

What you need to understand is that this can't just be a thought. Like the way that fun is had is, is you actually have to experience it. Right. So we are, we are going to spend the next six months talking about this futuristic social gathering that, that we will then find any kind of possible problem which will lead us to never pick a specific person or a couple.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. All right. Okay. So we'll try it.

[Abby Wambach]

Because here's the thing. Like, one of the most important elements of fun is that you don't know what the outcome is going to be. So the act of life, of experience, you might have fun and you also might not. But that gives you some information of what you should do next time or what you shouldn't do next time.

[Glennon Doyle]

All right, that sounds like great fun.

[Abby Wambach]

I do think we need to address the fact though, that there is some of this disparity has to do with privilege and the ability to have time.

Yes.

And this disparity between like, levels of needs. Right. So a lot of women in their roles are the caretakers. They are, they're. They're making sure that all the immediate needs get met. And so if they have any amount of time left, that, that, that they need to rest.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. And so rest is at a higher need level than the next level, which is this idea of play and fun. And I actually always thought that if I read this thing recently from this doctor, and he said that the opposite of play isn't work, it's depression.

Ooh.

Which was so interesting to me because I always thought that, like, the absence of work, rest is enough. Like, as long as you get enough rest, then from your work, then you can avoid this kind of malaise that you get where you're just putting one foot in front of the other, but you're never like, really driving joy out of your days that, like, that my problem was a deficiency of rest. But that isn't it. Apparently. Apparently, like, rest is to work what play is to gloom.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow.

[Abby Wambach]

So you can't rise out of your melancholy just based on rest. Like, you actually have to actively add in the antidote to that, which is fascinating to me. So I just think from a perspective of women who are kind of always only getting to the urgent things, that this sense of melancholy that I go through a lot, that I think a lot of us go through, that you actually should be prescribing yourself some of this fun in whatever small doses you can get, because apparently, and this was news to me, that resting is not the same as that.

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow.

[Abby Wambach]

It's really good. And I think that, you know, Glennon, there's times where I'm like, hey, have you run out of glennon today? And you're like, yes. And sometimes that happens earlier in days than. Than normal.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And maybe this is it. Maybe the antidote or the prescription is, is that you need to have a little bit more play in your life so that you can stay having enough Glenon for the whole day.

[Glennon Doyle]

All right. Sounds like a challenge. All right. Thank you, babe.

[Abby Wambach]

Love you guys.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's really fun having you here. Thanks for having me so much. I love you, Sissy.

[Abby Wambach]

Love you.

[Glennon Doyle]

We'll get you on a roller coaster soon, and we're going to take a break and we'll be back with some hard questions.

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[Abby Wambach]

Okay sister. Our first question today is from Sarah.

[F]

Hi Glennon. My name is Sarah. I'm a wife, sister, daughter, mother and healthcare worker. When I think about my life, it strikes me that I've never known how to have fun. When I think about my family, it strikes me that none of us, none of the women, my mother, my grandmother, cousins, sisters, aunts have fun. The closest we get to having fun is drinking wine together. I keep asking myself, what do you want to do for fun? But I have no answer. Just silence. I'm worried that I was born without a fun self or that my fun self is dead. What do you think? Thanks for the show.

[Glennon Doyle]

So the gendered thing is so interesting, right? I was talking to a friend about this recently, and at first she was not buying the whole gendered idea on fun, right? That women don't know how to have fun and men do, which is, of course, a huge generalization. And I'm just saying it because it's always true. Okay? So, but then she started thinking back to her childhood, right? She knows how to have fun, this friend. So that's why she was pushing back on this idea, because she is the opposite of me on the fun spectrum. She has actual hobbies, things she likes. I know, I know. Things she likes to do when she has free time. She understands what to do with free time. She has passions. It's so interesting. And so that's why she was pushing back on this idea of it being gendered. But then she started thinking back on her childhood, okay? And, like, where it was that she developed these hobbies and fun things. And she remembered that, well, her parents were divorced, okay? So every week she would live. During the week, she would live with her mom, and her mom would do, you know, the wake up and the school and the homework and the dinner and the bedtime, repeat, repeat, repeat all the things, right? And then on Friday afternoon, she would get dropped off at her dad's, and then she would have fun for the weekend, okay? So for 48 hours, they'd have fun together. Her dad was an awesome dad. He would take her to do all of the things he loved to do, right? They'd go to baseball games. They'd go to the photography store and then go take pictures. They would go to movies. They would listen to music together, buy records, go to the records store, right? So as my friend grew, she learned to love what her dad loved, right? And so as adults, they were super tight. That's what they did together. They still went to movies. They still went to baseball games and on and on. And so her point was that she said, now that I think about it, I've never seen my mom have fun. Like, I actually don't even know I know what my dad loves. I don't know what my mom loves. I don't know what my mom likes or dislikes. I've actually never invited my mom to go to a movie, right? And she said the interesting thing is whenever she and her mom do have some free time together, they don't know what to do. Often her mom will just say, well, do you want to just, like, go grab a glass of wine? Right. So it's just got me thinking. I mean, is it possible that families have historically been, and still often are structured in a way that means men often have more time and energy and space to find out what they like and dislike, Right? To find out what is fun to them and what brings them to life? And women often have not had that time to discover their humanity. Right? So that often means that we know our fathers as human beings, as people, and we know our mothers as devoted, selfless caretakers and servants. Okay? But anyway, she actually asked me a specific question, didn't she, Julia? Or who? Sarah. Sarah.

[Abby Wambach]

Sarah is worried that she was born without a fun self.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, right. Okay. I'm with you. I'm with you, Sarah. I also was worried about that. Here's my theory, okay? My theory is not that our fun self is completely dead, right? That we do have a fun self. It's just that she's hibernating. Like, she started. She gave up on us when we gave up on her. Like, she just decided to go dormant when we stopped feeding her or asking her opinion on anything. And so what Sarah said, I understand. Like, when I sit there, it drives Abby crazy when I sit there and ask myself, what do you want to do, self? What would be fun for you? It's just radio silence, right? But there is this magical thing that happens every once in a while that, sister, you and I have talked about. Okay? I'm gonna set the scene for you. I'm taking my kids to soccer. That's all I do all day, every day until I die, okay? And they're all in the car. And usually they get to control the radio, but every once in a while, like a few weeks ago, White Snake came on.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, here I go again on my mo.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right? And something just. Amma went to change the station.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, hell no.

[Glennon Doyle]

No. And I said, stop. And I cranked up White Snake. Just so you know, there's five kids in my car at that point, I had other people's children in the car. But for a moment, I was freaking Tawny Kitaen in that convertible. My fun self just blossomed up and was like, hell, yes, here I go again on my own. Okay. Every once in a while. Music. Okay, I'll be. Listen. I'll be doing the dishes. I'll be doing the dishes, okay? And while I'm doing the dishes and it's quiet. I am a boring, long suffering, bitter, sad woman. Bitter Woman. Yes. But then the right song will come on. I don't know what it is. It could be. I don't know. It could be the Spice Girls. It could be Beyonce. It could be Bon Jovi. It could be. And suddenly I am alive again. I'm still doing the dishes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

But my fun self, it's like she smelled a delicious aroma, and she has awakened.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's.

[Abby Wambach]

You got out of your head. Like, that's what it is. I mean, we live so much inside our heads. We're living with, like, the ticker that never stops in the head. And there's something that. I mean, other people who have, like, hobbies and stuff, this is the way they get out of their head. But, like, just the music, it takes us out of the interior and enlivens some part of us. And I think that it does. I get that completely. In fact, I'm so glad you brought that up, because I don't integrate music the way you do in your life. Except that a couple weeks ago, you posted a set of three videos where you were on your boat, you were driving your boat, and you were singing and dancing to songs, and you were just.

[Amanda Doyle]

It.

[Abby Wambach]

They were amazing. I watched them, like, 1400 times because I felt something when I was watching them, when I was watching you sing and dance. And I realized that I don't have that feeling in my life. And so I. I swear to you for the past couple weeks that since I watched that, I've been like, I'm gonna put music on. I never put music on. I'm in my car. I'm, like, listening to npr. I'm doing whatever. So I was like, I'm gonna put music on. And I swear to you that it's doing something. It's like. It's taking me out of the trap of my head. It's.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like.

[Abby Wambach]

And it's not adding something to my plate. It's just these regular moments, like you said, like the dishwasher or the driving. It's just these interstitial, like, joy moments that otherwise would have not been the joy moments. And I realized it's. It's a real thing. Like, I feel like in the story of my life, it becomes like, the daily grind. It's like my life story reads like endless pages of footnotes. It's like, da, da, da, da, da. Here's the thing we have to do. Here's the thing I should be thinking about next. And when I'm. When I have music on, when these, like, fun songs or that Remind me of a memory or it's just like it. I swear to you that it allows me to see the poetry of my life. It allows me to see things that take me out of the footnotes. And it's like, oh, my gosh. Listening to some cheesy country song, I'm like, I love my husband.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. Remember when I thought country songs was who I was? So I moved to a town with one stoplight. And then I realized I was just a person who liked country music and not actually a country person. I do remember that.

[Abby Wambach]

I do remember that. One of the nine moves.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's because it's this thing of you thinking in spreadsheets and me thinking in colors. It's like you actually don't believe you need art in your life to be a human being, right? And art, good books, beautiful movies, music. It's something that wakes up the humanity in us that is separate than this capitalistic grind that wants to keep us productive over and over and over. It's like it's resistance, rest, art. They're these things that don't make sense in terms of productivity, right? And so it feels like holding onto your humanity in a culture that doesn't want you to do that, that wants you to just keep thinking you have to produce and that your worth is based on what you contribute as opposed to what you experience.

[Abby Wambach]

And I think the experience part of it is huge. Like, I don't have experiences where I'm not just totally inside my head. And so the things. And I don't drink anymore, right? So, like, that was the way I used to get outside of the trap of whatever was just on constant loop in my head. But the music does. It takes me out of the loop. Like, it puts me in a different loop. And I. And I. And this is another thing that. This is like a tragic reality that I have become aware of in my own life that I think that actually that the way that I feel about the people in my life and my daily life has much less to do about the people in my life and my daily life and the way I feel about them has to do with how I feel.

[Glennon Doyle]

Amen. If I'm happy, I love you. If I'm unhappy, you suck.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, and it's just like that is that to me, it seems so simple and ridiculous, but it really feels true. And so when I. These. These moments where I can get myself outside of the loop, I can see it better. I can see it all in a different way than when I'm trapped in it. And and for me, music has done it. And it feels doable. Like, it feels for someone like me. Like, you can just add a little bit in and also bonus. Ding, ding, ding. When you put music on and you're with your kids, it's like you're playing, but you don't have to play.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly. It's the playing. For people who hate playing like us, it's like you're suddenly a fun, loving house. Look how playful we are. Look how we're like us. Yes, absolutely. We're a little band. Now continue without me, please. Over there? Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, God. Okay. Speaking of music, I'm very glad you brought that up, because I want to ask you a question. Okay. I know you don't pay attention to any of this, and so you won't have a clue about this. I hope this isn't dropping something on you, but I do pay very close attention to these things. So I want to ask you about those videos that I was just talking about on the boat. So when you posted those, you were driving your boat, the music was blasting, you were singing and dancing, and you were so happy and free. Okay. On that day, you had the single biggest unfollowed day ever. So on social media on that day, more people unfollowed your page than ever in, like, 10 years. So I was watching those folks on Follow, and I kept thinking about that part of Untamed where you said, it's easier for the world to love a suffering woman than it is for the world to love a joyful, confident woman. And I'm just wondering what you make of that. Like, this, like, audaciously free, happy woman living unapologetically in that moment, it clearly made so many people just deeply uncomfortable. Like, what is that about?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, listen. Okay, I'll set the scene. Abby and I live on a little canal off the Gulf of Mexico. And when we moved here, we got this boat. And it's so wonderful. It's a little fishing boat. We don't fish, but it's on a dock in our backyard so we can literally get on our little boat. The first few times we were out on the Gulf of Mexico on it, I realized I was happier than I had ever been in my entire life with my wife out on the Gulf of Mexico. Can't see land anywhere. No one is driving this boat except for the two of us. I used to look at her in the driver's seat and think, oh, my God, why is the world letting us do this? Like, no one is the boss of us. We are Completely free wind just. It just was utter joy. And this, like, wild thing it brought up in me. And when we were thinking about what we were going to name the boat, we decided, what is that wild, free spirit? And we could think of only Liz's partner Rhea, who died, but her spirit was so unbelievably free and wild. And so we named the boat Raya. So I used to let Abby drive the boat all the time. I didn't ever want to. Like, I was too scared to take control of the boat. And recently I learned how to drive the boat because I was like, this is bullshit. Like, stop it. You can do this. And I learned how to drive the boat. So I was on the boat that day. We had the kids on the boat. I was driving, and Abby was videoing me. Because music, if you think it's good in the kitchen, it's so good on you. Just like she. She was videoing me dancing to. I think all about that bass. Okay. I actually hate. No, I hate that song. I think it's a terrible, terrible song. I can't stand it. I think it's, like, so obnoxious. An anti feminist. Fine. I loved it that day, okay? And then the Spice Girls came on, and then Pink I Am Here came on. So what? I was like. It was like the best dancing day. So Abby was videoing me. She showed me the video later. And honestly, sister, when I watched that video, my thought was, this is my favorite version of myself. I'm driving that freaking boat. I'm dancing, I'm happy, I'm free. I had, like, sweatpants and a tank top and a baseball cap and a bikini top on. And I just, like, felt. So I was like, I love myself in this. And I posted it. And maybe so many people unfollowed because my dancing was bad, but I don't think so. I actually think if my dancing had been bad, more people would have seen it. I think that the problem was my dancing was actually kind of good.

[Abby Wambach]

It's a stretch.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was for me. Come on.

[Abby Wambach]

I was like, holy shit. Very good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, for me. Very, very good. I think the truth is, the happier, the more joyful, the more successful, the more bold a man is, the more the world likes and trusts him. And the more successful, confident, bold and happy and free a woman is, the less we like and trust her, right? And so something, when we see that, it irks us, right? And, you know, that's why so many people end up saying, I don't know, it's just something about her I can't put my finger on it. I can put my finger on it. It's internalized misogyny. Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, is it because we don't give ourselves permission or feel like we are able to be happy so that when someone else is doing it, it's this audacious kind of clash that we can't really identify, but we're like, that feels.

[Glennon Doyle]

Bad because I want it. Yeah. I think that's how I used to deal with envy all the time. Every time I felt envious of something, it would hurt inside and I would shut it down. I would just decide. I didn't. I hated that person. I didn't. I just shut it down until I realized that envy is, of course, a red flashing arrow pointing me towards the thing I want. And so I can either decide, well, you did it. You were like, that makes me feel something. I want that I'm gonna try to incorporate that into my life. You can do that and use it now. That's what I try to do. When someone does something awesome that makes me feel jealous, I just try to sit with it and think, like, okay, what is this telling me that I want that I was made to do next? But I mean, listen, I know people who. Women who. When they feel like they're being too happy or fulfilled or successful or whatever, they will know that because of the way the world works that they will need to insert something, a post or whatever that shows them really weak and vulnerable and sad because the world will only tolerate a happy woman for so long. Right. So, I mean, I don't know. It makes me. It makes me. You know, I used to. I caught myself when I first was promoting Love Warrior and Untamed. I would catch myself every time someone said, so you left your husband. I would find myself making sure I brought up the infidelity right away. My ex husband's infidelity. Whenever anyone talked about the success of my books or my speaking career, I would find myself right away bringing up the nonprofit, bringing up Together Rising, because I know that the world will only allow me to do what I want to do in that marriage if I have a get out of jail free card, if I have permission because he was unfaithful. And I know that the world will only allow me to do well in the world if I'm doing good. Right? So it's okay that I'm successful at books because I do all this charity work and I'm an activist and I'm. And I caught myself doing that and I stopped. I do not because I do not want women to listen to me and feel like they need a permission slip to do what they want in the world. And I don't want them to feel like they need an excuse for doing well.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Because at the end of the day, it's about worthiness. Right. Like, when people see that video of you, they don't think they're jealous of you on the boat. They think at a deep level, I do not believe that I am worthy of joy in my life. And it is offensive to me when someone is audaciously claiming their worth that way.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, maybe they just freaking hate my dancing. It could be a lot of things. But you know what? It makes me actually more hell bent on showing myself in those strong moments. Because, you know, I've never pretended to be stronger than I am in any given moment. And so I'm sure as hell not going to pretend to be less strong than I happen to be in a particular moment. Right. My promise has been that in every moment, I'm going to show up how I am, exactly how I am inside of my moment. That's been my promise to the world. So when I'm feeling free and strong and joyful, I'm going to show up that way. And honestly, I think that we all need to show ourselves in those moments, too. And I think we need to stop requiring suffering and sadness and meekness from other women. Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Normalize joy for women.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. So that eventually it becomes less shocking and audacious and annoying for women to show themselves as strong and happy. Okay, everybody, this is our next right thing for the week. Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna listen to music this week. We're not even gonna add an extra thing to do. We're just gonna add this thing to what we're already doing. Okay? We're gonna put on music during our regular day, in the car, in the kitchen, at work, wherever we are. We're gonna do that to awaken this fun self inside of us and let her know that we still believe in her. Right. And we're gonna be calling on her soon. So I have made a playlist of fun songs for you. The link to that playlist is going to be in the show notes. I do not want you to notice that all of these songs are from 20 years ago. I did notice it. It's possible that that's the last time I had fun. If it's not your jam, make a list of jams for yourself. Of fun jams. Right, sissy? Is this what we're asking them to do?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. So the link to the playlist is in the notes to this podcast and we're also going to do a post on your social details on the playlist and there we want people to tell us the songs that awaken their fun self so we can keep building this out for folks.

[Glennon Doyle]

Awesome. We're going to save the world through fun songs this week. Love it. Sissy. Okay everybody, thank you for being with us today. When life gets hard this week, don't forget, we can do hard things. We will see you back here next week. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.