Gillian Anderson: How to Get What You Want (in Bed and in Life)

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things Podcast Episode Summary

Title: Gillian Anderson: How to Get What You Want (in Bed and in Life)
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Gillian Anderson
Release Date: October 29, 2024

In this compelling episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle engage in a profound and heartfelt conversation with the acclaimed actress and activist, Gillian Anderson. The discussion navigates through themes of sexual empowerment, personal authenticity, rebellion against societal norms, and the intersection of the personal and political in women's lives.

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1. Introduction to Gillian Anderson

The episode opens with a warm and enthusiastic introduction of Gillian Anderson, highlighting her multifaceted career and her role as a beacon of representation for many women, especially within the LGBTQ+ community.

Abby Wambach introduces Gillian by saying, “Gillian Anderson, congratulations for being such an incredible icon for so long. You are so unbelievably talented and such a trailblazer” (06:38).

2. Exploring Sexual Fantasies and Their Cultural Significance

A significant portion of the conversation delves into Gillian Anderson's latest book, Want: Sexual Fantasies from the Women Who Have Them and Why They Are Important. The hosts and Anderson explore how sexual fantasies are not merely personal desires but are deeply intertwined with cultural and societal constructs.

Abby Wambach reflects on a key theme from the book, stating, “Everything in the world is about sex except for sex. Sex is about power” (15:03). This highlights how sexual fantasies can be a manifestation of empowerment and the desire for agency.

Gillian Anderson explains the genesis of her book: “I put the call out to women from around the world and my imagination... to take a look at the degree to which things may or may not have changed for women since the 70s” (07:49). She emphasizes the importance of giving women a platform to voice their innermost desires anonymously, fostering a sense of community and shared experience.

3. Rebellion Against Wellness Culture

The discussion shifts to Anderson's experiences with and critique of wellness culture. Both Anderson and the hosts express frustration with how wellness standards often impose restrictive "shoulds" on women, leading to internal conflicts and self-judgment.

Gillian Anderson candidly shares, “Fuck wellness culture” (15:05), signaling a rejection of societal pressures to conform to specific health and wellness norms.

Amanda Doyle adds context to her own battles with wellness expectations: “...refusing internally to do the things that I felt people were telling me that I should do” (07:33). She discusses the impact of social media and societal standards on women's self-perception and mental health.

4. The Intersection of Personal Empowerment and Political Rights

A pivotal part of the conversation explores how personal empowerment, especially in intimate relationships, mirrors broader political struggles for women's rights and bodily autonomy.

Amanda Doyle connects personal empowerment to political activism, stating, “If we can’t do it in our bedrooms, how can we have power outside of it?” (28:05). This underscores the idea that the ability to express desires and needs in intimate settings is reflective of broader societal freedoms.

Gillian Anderson ties this concept to recent political changes, noting the timing of her book’s launch with the overturning of Roe v. Wade: “Nancy Friday... was when Roe became law. You start your project in 2022, which is when Roe is overturned” (19:05). This highlights the precarious nature of women's rights and the importance of personal autonomy in the face of political challenges.

5. Embracing Choice and Pleasure as Forms of Resistance

The conversation emphasizes the importance of embracing personal choice and pleasure as acts of resistance against oppressive norms. The hosts discuss how prioritizing one's own desires and needs, both in and out of the bedroom, is a powerful statement of self-worth and autonomy.

Abby Wambach passionately remarks, “I have to think, does this make me feel good or do I just feel obedient?” (31:23). This question encapsulates the struggle between genuine self-care and conforming to externally imposed standards.

Gillian Anderson expands on the concept of pleasure as a form of power: “Is there power in being like, I have the right to feel pleasure?” (20:38). She advocates for women to openly declare their needs and desires without shame, reinforcing the notion that pleasure is a legitimate and vital aspect of one's well-being.

6. Closing Thoughts and Future Initiatives

As the episode draws to a close, Gillian Anderson shares her vision for continued dialogue and community building through her media hub, ThisIsGeode.com. The hosts express their gratitude and admiration for Anderson's openness and advocacy.

Glennon Doyle concludes with heartfelt appreciation: “For all of the lesbians out there, you've been an icon, like a North Star for so many of us... thank you for being that for us all these years” (44:31).

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Notable Quotes

• Abby Wambach: “Everything in the world is about sex except for sex. Sex is about power.” (15:03)
• Gillian Anderson: “I felt like this isn't my book. This is every woman's book.” (07:49)
• Amanda Doyle: “If we can’t do it in our bedrooms, how can we have power outside of it?” (28:05)
• Abby Wambach: “Is there power in being like, I have the right to feel pleasure?” (20:38)
• Glennon Doyle: “If you can't even do it in your bedroom, how can we have power and outside of it?” (32:19)

Conclusion

This episode of We Can Do Hard Things serves as a powerful exploration of the connections between personal desires, societal expectations, and political rights. Through candid conversation and shared experiences, Gillian Anderson and the hosts shed light on the importance of authenticity, empowerment, and solidarity among women. The dialogue encourages listeners to embrace their true selves, challenge oppressive norms, and advocate for their rights both personally and politically.

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Timestamp References:

• 06:38: Introduction of Gillian Anderson
• 07:33: Amanda Doyle discusses being an outsider
• 07:49: Gillian Anderson on her book
• 15:03: Abby Wambach on sex and power
• 15:05: Rejection of wellness culture
• 19:05: Connection to Roe v. Wade
• 20:38: Power in feeling pleasure
• 28:05: Personal empowerment and political rights
• 31:23: Feeling good vs. feeling obedient
• 32:19: Importance of empowerment in personal spaces
• 44:31: Appreciation for Gillian Anderson

Note: Timestamps correspond to the provided transcript and indicate when each notable point or quote occurs within the episode.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

The icon.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, the icon. The first thing Jillian did on this interview was to come on and say to us, congratulations on your sex. So you'll have to listen to figure out what she meant by that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

I've never been congratulated on my sex before and I feel seen.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, you have.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, so that why did Jillian congratulate us on our sex. Jillian also cried during this interview. Got very emotional, made us all very emotional. You're gonna wanna listen for what made her feel so deeply. You're also gonna hear what our sexual fantasies mean about us. And not just about us, but about our entire culture. Jillian also in this interview, helps us figure out why all of us to some level, need to say F you to wellness culture.

[Glennon Doyle]

God, her rebellion is intoxicating.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh my God.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm like, yes, that is how I used to feel.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, yes, that is how I used.

[Jillian Anderson]

To feel back when I felt things.

[Abby Wambach]

That's how I used to feel.

[Glennon Doyle]

That is how I used to act.

[Abby Wambach]

Before I was beaten down by this world, I too was Gillian Anderson. And I hope you were too. This conversation's gonna make you freer.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, that's good.

[Abby Wambach]

Enjoy. Gillian Anderson is an award winning film, television and theater actor, producer and director. Among other honors, she has won two Emmys, two Golden Globes and three SAG awards. Jillian is also an activist, a charity campaigner, and co authored the Sunday Times bestseller, We A Manifesto for women everywhere. In 2023, Jillian founded the wellness drinks brand G Spot, which are just actually completely delicious. Delicious. In 2016, she was appointed an honorary OBE Order of the Brit Empire for her services to drama. I know you wanna be an obe, don't you?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

That looks so cool.

[Abby Wambach]

She lives in London with her three children and her latest book, Want Sexual Fantasies by Anonymous, is available now. Welcome Jillian.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hello.

[Amanda Doyle]

Wow. Hello.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh my God. Wow. Oh my God. What a treat.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hi guys.

[Abby Wambach]

If this interview ended right now, I would still be so excited and consider it a ranging success.

[Amanda Doyle]

Sorry, I'm gonna take a picture with this silly thing right now. Cause I was given one of these. Although that's not very helpful because I'm. Hang on, hang on, let me get this right. Hang on, let me. How do I. How do I. This old fashioned thing which I'm behaving like I'm 150. Hi. So cool. I'm so pleased to meet you guys. So pleased. Congratulations on your sex. On your sex. Congratulations on your sex.

[Abby Wambach]

No one has ever congratul congratulated us on our sex before. So hard for my son to do it. I appreciate you.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's so good.

[Amanda Doyle]

I don't know where that came from. I didn't have sex on the brain yet, so it's very strange that it just popped in there. Congratulations on your podcast, your success.

[Jillian Anderson]

That's the word success.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's usually how it gets mixed up.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's the word Congratulations, man. I'm very happy for you guys.

[Abby Wambach]

Julian Anderson, congratulations to you for being such an incredible icon for so long. You are so unbelievably talented and such a trailblazer. Well, first of all, can you just talk to us about being named in high school most likely to get Arrested and Most Bizarre? Because even like on top of all of the iconic. Well, it's not just the characters you play, it's like what you bring to it, obviously. It's like this chemistry thing that happens which has solidified you as one of the most, I don't know, revolutionary, inspiring. But the senior superlative is really what made me understand you are not new to this. You're true to this. Okay, so why were you named most likely to get Arrested at Most Bizarre? What were your fellow students thinking and seeing in you?

[Amanda Doyle]

I was always and always have been a bit of an outsider. Not a bit. I have been an outsider and didn't really make a lot of friends in high school. My hair was always not unlike it is right now. Ratty and not curled and straight and combed and pretty. And then I started wearing oversized thrift clothes, cinching it with a belt, pointy black boots with buckles. And I started to shave my head and have a mohawk. And then my boyfriend when I was 15 was 21, but that's another conversation. And also by then I'd had a lesbian relationship that they all knew about and teased me about. And so I was kind of on the outside. And then true to form, on graduation night, I was actually arrested because I tried to break into the high school with my then boyfriend and glue the locks shut. So, yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh God, you're so cool. Okay, so we have been really immersed in your new book, which the pod squad needs to understand. Well, actually you described to us what want. I've read the whole thing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Have you?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, yeah. Beginning to end.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's really, really sweet of you. It is called want in the 70s. There was a book by Nancy Friday in 1973. She had asked a community of women to write in anonymously to about their sexual fantasies. And she published that book and it was apparently a huge success. Women carried it in their purses and had it on their coffee tables and it was in every household. And it was risque and shocking and sold millions of copies. And my book agent came to me at one point and said, I've had all these requests for you since you did sex education, but the only one that I feel you might be interested in is this. And she suggested Us doing a version of anonymous letters, sending it out broader on the one hand, to take a look at the degree to which things may or may not have changed for women since the 70s in terms of what we think about. And so that really made sense to me. I was really curious about what that might look like. And it made sense as to why I should do it based on having done sex ed and based on my socials feed and how I interact with people. So I started this journey brand called G Spot. And because of also leaning into that messaging and inclusivity and diversity and acceptance and health and making choices for oneself about one's own body and how one feels as opposed to what the wellness industry is telling us we should do and should feel. So it was all this big conversation that was happening and I thought, okay, it makes sense that it would be me that would do this book. I put the call out to women from around the world and my imagination. I was thinking we'd get letters from the trans community and from differently abled people and from non binary and from anyone who identifies as being a woman and that they would come from the far reaches of the world. And even because we've set up a portal that will be protected and be anonymous, that we'll get women from Iran and we'll get women from Saudi Arabia and we'll get every representation of a woman. And to a large degree we did. We've got a wide range of voices in here and we whittled down over a thousand letters to 174. And it's every woman. It is. It's tender and touching and moving and beautiful and sad and painful and heart wrenching and sexy as fuck. And there's some really good writing in there that's raw and honest. And I feel like this isn't my book. This is every woman's book. Who pitched in? Everyone who worked on it at Bloomsbury and the other publishers. It belongs to everyone. And it's starting a much bigger conversation too. So what's happening is we've asked women, when they're reading, they're asking themselves, do I get what I want in the bedroom? And if I'm not, have I asked for it? Am I complicit in not getting what I want? Can I ask for it? And if I can't ask for it because of either it's feeling too awkward and taboo in the relationship or I feel like my partner will get angry at me and feel judged for not doing what I want, or have I, you know, all those questions start to come up and it not just in the bedroom. It's also women are starting to say actually, am I happy? Am I happy in my life? Am I getting what I want in my life? Have I actually really put myself out there? I'm now 62 years old and this book is encouraging me to ask these questions and really investigate whether I am living my best life and what would I need to do in order to shift that for myself. And maybe that's leaning more into the relationship and the intimacy with your partner, your husband, your wife, your other. And maybe it's not. Maybe it's saying I deserve better than this. I don't know. It's just starting a big conversation.

[Jillian Anderson]

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[Abby Wambach]

I want to take us back to the sexual fantasies, please, because.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. Yes, Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

I have many questions.

[Jillian Anderson]

Congratulations on your sex.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, congratulations on your sex. While you were talking, I was thinking, you know that quote about everything in the world is about sex except for sex. Sex is about power. I think about that all the time. And there's something, I read the book and at first there was like many times where I was like, oh my God. Like, oh my God, why is this okay to be reading? Like, it's very, very sexy. Okay. But there's something about it that actually had nothing to do with sex for me. Like, I love women. I'm not talking about sexually. Although that too. But maybe why Nancy Friday called her book My Secret Garden. There is a part of us that we don't share with each and with the women that I know. That's the only part that we don't share with each other.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's it.

[Abby Wambach]

So when I was reading your book from beginning to end, the deeper tingle or beauty for me had nothing to do with the actual fantasies. I felt like I was sitting at a slumber party with all different kinds of women where we were finally saying the thing we don't say. And so having nothing to do with sex in particular. I felt so close to other women. Like, I felt like, oh my God. Like I feel when somebody says the really hard thing that they think no one else is gonna relate to. And it doesn't matter if you can't relate to it. It matters that they said it. It makes you feel so connected.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Just in the writing in, they feel seen and heard, which is interesting because they're anonymous. It's the act of actually doing what you're saying which is speaking to some of our inner truths in a safe space.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And this is the conversation that seems to be taking place around this, which is women coming together as a community and offering that space to each other to have these conversations about your innermost thoughts and feelings and fears. And, you know, and I think we have. Obviously, as women, we have a tendency to do that anyway. But there's also such a culture out there. I don't know why I'm getting emotional, but there's such a culture out there of women hating on each other and obviously exacerbated by social media. And anybody can say anything to anybody, and there are no consequences. And it feels like if there is ever a time for us to come together and just say, enough of this fucking shit. Enough of this. Just. Even if we're supporting each other, I don't care where you're from or what your religion is or what your political party is or what your anything, what your sex is, your sexual preference, just based on the fact that we are women, we're gonna stop hating on each other and just lift each other up, because particularly. And I also keep thinking this, too, is like, you know, in happening in the States and what could potentially happen shortly in the next few months if we lose our power, you know, to make decisions about our own body, if we can't even do that in the west, how can we be the shoulders that women around the world can stand on in order to lift themselves up? And I never get political and I don't share stuff. I don't comment on stuff on my socials. And I didn't realize that, actually I felt so strongly about this. I mean, I know that I feel strongly about it, but if not now, when is what I'm kind of thinking. And so my conversation keeps going in this direction when I'm talking about this now, because it feels like we're at the precipice, and it feels like this. The conversation around this book is giving women a voice. And it's a bigger conversation than just the intimacies of what happens in the bedroom. But it's part of the same. But it's part of the same thing.

[Jillian Anderson]

It's the same.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's the same thing.

[Jillian Anderson]

I mean, it's undeniable. The timing, that's what kept freaking me out about this whole project, is that Nancy Friday, the origin of her book, was fascinating. Where she had written a different book, a novel, and it had a sexual fantasy in it. And the publisher was so aghast that it had a woman with a sexual fantasy that they shelved the book because. Not only because it was so anathema that you would ever print a woman's fantasy. They actually didn't believe women's fantasies existed, and so they shelved it. They were like, that's a bridge too far. That's nuts. So she writes this book, and she writes it in 1973, which is when Roe became law. You start your project in 2022, which is when Roe is overturned.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, don't. Oh, don't. I didn't actually make that connection.

[Abby Wambach]

Crazy, right?

[Jillian Anderson]

What about that? Is this.

[Amanda Doyle]

Wow. You know, it's just what we were just talking about. It's being seen and being heard and also the community of it and supporting each other. It is. It's just saying enough is enough.

[Abby Wambach]

And choice.

[Jillian Anderson]

Right. When we say we're pro choice, there's the power comes from the ability to make a choice.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Jillian Anderson]

The idea of fantasy. Is there power in saying, I have a choice, I have a preference?

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, yeah.

[Jillian Anderson]

Is there power in being like, I have the right to feel pleasure?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Pleasure has been a dirty word. You know, people think of pleasure as being a frivolous thing, you know, and it's not. It's really important. And it's also important to lean into it. It's important to embrace it and to give oneself permission to feel it, to ask for it, to give it to oneself, to identify what it is that gives one pleasure. Because it brings joy. It's a joyful thing, whatever one's version of pleasure is. Even if one's version of pleasure is sitting on the sofa and eating ice cream and watching your favorite. You know, there's a noise that I make, me and my partner make whenever we're like under a duvet or watch, when we finally have, like, let go and are sitting doing something that. Cause we work really fucking hard. And so if we give ourselves that moment where we're either under a duvet or on a sofa about to watch a documentary or something, we go, and that's our moment of pleasure.

[Jillian Anderson]

Like you're a little trickster.

[Amanda Doyle]

Whatever it is, there's something mischievous in there. And so there's all such great stuff to embrace and enjoy and take ownership of and identify for ourselves.

[Abby Wambach]

It's important, that energy. It's trickster energy.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because it's a little witchy. Yeah, it's witchy.

[Abby Wambach]

It reminds me of the feeling that you get when you're out of the talons of something. Like when you have escaped your grind, your work, addiction, the capitalism, all the talons that are in us all the time. The freedom from that under the duvet is the same thing as fantasy. It's when you are free from the talons of all the other things. And I think that's why it's so scary. When I read all these and I'm thinking, oh, my God, I'm connecting. They're so human. Everybody's so human. That is what the people who want to control our bodies cannot abide by. They cannot abide that we would have trickster energy that is full of agency, that is full of imagination. When you think of imagination and sexual fantasy being similar, they are the only things that are free from power and control. So that has to be squashed because they cannot consider the fact that we may be as fully human as they are and deserving of equal human rights.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's exactly how I feel when I take a afternoon nap.

[Abby Wambach]

I think that's exactly the reason why.

[Glennon Doyle]

I take my afternoon nap.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, you're out of the talons.

[Glennon Doyle]

Just like, fuck everything that's making me think that I should do something different.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I'm gonna go do.

[Jillian Anderson]

That's a slippery slope when you start breaking the rules. What's next?

[Amanda Doyle]

It's true. It's true.

[Abby Wambach]

This is connected completely. Tell us about. We read that you had a point in your life where you had never exercised and that you said fuck you to wellness culture. And I almost started crying when I read that one sentence. So can you talk to us about how wellness culture has its talons in us?

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, I think, you know, as I said that, that same part of me that, you know, grew up bordering in the punk world and, you know, flipping the bird on the streets of Grand Rapids, Michigan, where I moved from London when I was a kid. It was that same kind of energy that went into the rest of my life, you know, refusing internally to do the things that I felt people were telling me that I should do. I've never been good at doing shoulds. I know that I have enough shoulds in my head, and they've, you know, at various points in my 20s, when I, you know, became very famous young, there were certainly shoulds in terms of feeling bad about myself and my weight going up and down, and certainly had a lot of that in my head. But despite all that, there's always been this part of me that has stood kind of on the outside looking at all of the wellness doctrines and watching the trajectory of impact that whether it starts with Jane Fonda and when she started the aerobics and all of that, just viewing all of that slightly from the outside and Seeing the pressure and the beating up that women do to themselves when they don't conform and do the thing that they're told on the outside now through social media and everywhere about what they should not do, what they should and shouldn't look like. And so I think I've always had that in me that said, no, fuck off. That's just not me. I'm not going to do that. And if you tell me to do it, I'm more likely not to do it. But then recently in the last couple years, when I realized that I wanted to look at that again and take ownership and say, okay, hang on a second. Instead of. To what degree of my rebelliousness is that actually harming me? And can I reframe this and say, okay, here's the deal. I know that I still want to be lifting grandchildren up. I know I want to be able to put my wheelie bag up on the top airplane. I know that I want to be able to walk up the steps. All those little things that, of course, now we take for granted. What can I do for myself by choice, but not, God damn it, by anything that anybody's telling me that I have to do that I'm just going to for myself. Look at these things that I can start doing and not feel like I. Like, I failed. Like, I gave up sugar last year and I hated. All of a sudden I realized because most of my adult life, I've said when people say, you know, is there anything you don't eat or do you have any meal restrictions or whatever? I'm like, no, no, no, it's fine. I'm fine. And then suddenly I started to say, well, I'm not doing gluten and no sugar. And I hate saying that because I feel like that part that, like, I'm suddenly that actress, like, you're succumbing. Like I'm succumbing to the. I cannot stand.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I see that.

[Amanda Doyle]

And I want to qualify. And so I've let go of that and I just say it anyway. But it was interesting what happened when I started to. To say those things. I have an issue, but I'm okay with my issue.

[Abby Wambach]

You seem to be someone who lives from the inside out and not from the outside in. So, like the.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, definitely.

[Abby Wambach]

You said, I want to be able to pick up my grandkids. I need, I want. Which is different than you should. There's this outer structure. It's just another religion, right? Another bunch of rules you can live by to keep yourself safe and trying to Match yourself to the outside Structure is different. It's like the difference between porn and sexual fantasy. Sexual fantasy is from the inside. It's something that rises up. It's a want and a need and then perhaps manifests on the outside instead of a structure from the outside that you are trying to get inside your body.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

The holidays are almost here. Between traveling, hosting family and finding the perfect gift, it's such an exciting, busy and yes, sometimes stressful time. Luckily, I've teamed up with Ring and it helped me stay connected to home for all the merry moments. Even when I'm on the go with Ring, you've got your whole home covered. Their video doorbells alert me when gifts arrive and I can even chat with delivery people to let them know where to leave the package. Ugh. It's the best. The indoor cam. Well, it's a game changer. So easy to set up. I use it to check in on my pets while I'm away. We love to watch Honey and Hattie and with two way talk I can even talk to them.

[Jillian Anderson]

Hi Honey.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hi Hattie. And when I want privacy, I just flip the manual cover to turn off the camera and micro Wherever the holidays take you, Ring makes sure you're always home for the holidays. So head to ring.com to find the latest deals on Ring, video doorbells, cams and alarm kits. Ring makes the perfect gift for everyone on your list. It's the best. Go get it folks.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

We do that because they're adorable, of course, but also because their skin is delicate. Know this. There is only one diaper brand that we recommend to give you the gentle protective care your little one needs and that's Pampers, the number one pediatrician recommended brand.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Worry about tearing with free and gentle mess meets its match.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

So download the Pampers Club app today and earn Pampers Cash. Redeem your Pampers cash for exclusive Pampers coupon savings and rewards. I think even deciding what feels good can be tricky because I was on a walk when I heard your thing about fuck wellness culture. I had just finished my red light therapy. I had done my infrared sauna for the day, and I was on my walk with my little weighted vest on. Okay. Because this is something I was told I need to do. So what I realized is I was listening to you say, fuck wellness culture. I know that in my. I know it, I know it. I know we should fuck wellness culture. But my first thought was, but this makes me feel good. And then I thought, wait, does this make me feel good or does it just make me feel obedient? I think that even what feels good can have a layer of dogma in it. Like, do I feel good in my body or do I just feel like I did the things I was supposed to do that day, which makes me feel safe?

[Jillian Anderson]

It's like, do I feel good or do I feel like I am good? Does this make me feel like I am a good person, or does this make me feel good in my body?

[Amanda Doyle]

That's so interesting, because I don't know.

[Abby Wambach]

That I felt better at all. I think I kind of feel like shit. I just spent my whole day in my basement with lights shining on my face. Like, what the hell is that?

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, then don't do things that you don't get any response from. You know, like, I would never. And maybe this is because my athletic background, but the reason why we have that stuff is because of me, and it's because they do make me feel good.

[Abby Wambach]

Because you know how to tell when you feel good.

[Jillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

All I know how to do is look at a list of things and be like, did I do all the things I was supposed to do? I must feel good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Check, check, check, check.

[Abby Wambach]

I must feel good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Anderson]

But that is a perfect question to circle back to the fantasies. When you ask a woman, what do you want for dinner? What do you like to eat? It's so often like, well, our family likes.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, we do.

[Jillian Anderson]

It's like a deference to those for whom you're responsible. Deference to the greater good. Like the idea that you would be even making an inquiry to know what makes you feel good. That's a very radical notion. You've taken the time to be like, what would just make exclusively me feel good in this moment in sex?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And what we're finding is that for my drink, we did a study at one point asking women how much time they put aside in the week for their own pleasure. And I think if I'm remembering correctly, it was about 30 minutes a week. Max. But also that they are most likely to reach orgasm outside of the sex that they have with their partner. Predominantly heterosexual partner, I would imagine. But who knows? And that it's easier to get there when doing it themselves. Which, of course begs the question, what if a conversation could be had? What if the start of that conversation could be about asking oneself, I guess, first and foremost what it is that would actually make it possible with the other partner there and radically deciding that it didn't matter if you might be wasting their time or that you are going to decide to not care whether you are wasting time. That it's not wasting time because it's what you want and what you think would help you get there. And so to say. Okay, we're going to have a session today where I show you actually what it is that would make. Please. I know. All right. Difficult.

[Abby Wambach]

Really difficult. I think it would be helpful if we had two. I need some more words. Okay. I need it to not. First of all, I need it to not just be fantasies. I need us to all admit that there's two categories. Okay. There's stuff I want to do and stuff I never want to do, but for some reason lights my brain up. Like, okay, so you're an actor. My friend told me who's an actor, that sometimes you're in a scene and you have to appear to be crying because you lost a friend or something. Okay. But if you're a person who has never lost a friend, you imagine something else that has happened to you that gave you that feeling. This is what she told me, right? So for me, there are certain ideas or like, little plays that can go on in your head if that's what a fantasy is. It's like a thought you have that activates sexual energy, but it's not something you ever want to happen.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

So I think one of the reasons why it's scary to talk about fantasy with your partner is because we don't have different words for these. Is because if I say this is my fantasy, then. And you might think that that means I want you to invite 12 masked strangers over to our living room. Like, there has to be two words.

[Amanda Doyle]

I think what I'm talking about is in the process of having this joined up conversation about fantasy, we're actually asking ourselves separate from the fantasies is, am I actually getting what I want and I need in the bedroom? Separate from the fantasy. So there is that version of things where maybe you allow yourself to explore your fantasy a bit more in order to either be turned on or to help you get in the mood for sex with your partner. But then there's the other part of the conversation, which is starting to happen, which is, am I actually getting what I want? Period? And can I start that conversation? It's not about a fantasy. It's actually real life. It's real life asking for what it is that we want and we need. Because in doing that, we feel heard, seen, empowered. And that shows up a lot in the fantasies in this book of just, you know, a lot of women saying, I want my partner to look at me as if they cherish me, as if they love me, exactly how I am, who I am and how I am and how I should. If you're realizing that in your mind that's part of what your fantasy is, you start to ask the question about, why is that? So is that such a hard thing to start to explore with my partner in real life? Just in terms of finding out whether we still have that together, that spark that, you know, that I deserve to be looked at it that way? You know, it's opening up so many big questions, and so much of it, at the end of the day, is down to what we feel courageous enough, brave enough to address and look at for ourselves. I think that knowing that in this moment, other women are starting to ask this question individually and together, can we maybe even just in tiny, tiny, small ways, start to think about ways that we can do things that make us feel like we have choice, give ourselves permission to have choice, to declare what it is that we want, to feel more empowered. In working on the Drink and writing the intros for the book, I suddenly realized that so much of. You know, I talk a lot about the fact that through my career, I still get nervous. I still. First days, second days, I'm terrified. I think I'm going to be fired. So many scenes that I have acted in, I have felt internally that I'm not that strong person. I'm not that bossy person, that fierce person. I mean, I am those things, but I'm not how to project that as a Thatcher or as a Scully, particularly when I was young and doing Scully, and I was meant to be the boss of or telling all these other FBI agents what to do. And I was like, I know five years old, and I had this squeaky voice, and I. When I heard myself say these things or argue with, you know, Skinner. So in order to show up and do those scenes, as every actor does, you have to pretend as if you can. You have to act as if that's what acting is. You're acting as if. And so if I can fucking do it, if I can do it. This five foot two and a half woman who's now 56 and has been, you know, has always had a bit of a squeaky voice and is, you know, the older we get, the less heard we feel. If I can continue for the last 30 years to do this and be in the shoes of really, really powerful women, then we can all stand in those shoes. We can all pretend to be that person. I think sometimes we feel that we can. Or how could we? I can't speak up for myself. I can't. They don't listen to me. I don't. Who am I to. You know? And I don't think it's that different for anybody. People in all walks of life get nervous, feel anxious, feel like there's no way they're going to be heard or seen. At the end of the day, it comes down to just doing it. Just acting as if. Just, you know, giving yourself permission and the courage. And if you have to imagine you're somebody else. You know, there used to be these bumper stickers when I did this series called the Fall that said, what would Stella do? And that's it. If that's what you need to have in your mind. That's part fantasy too, right? That's fantasy.

[Abby Wambach]

It really does, when you're talking, make me think so much about how it. All the personal is the political. And if we're in our bedrooms with our person who's supposed to know us the best, who we're supposed to feel safe with, and we cannot say, this is who I am and this is what I want, and I am as fully human as you and I have needs too. If we can't do it there, of course we're not gonna be able to do it at work at the voting booths. And it is so much. When I think about the fantasies in the book, it is so much about being known. So many of them seem to be saying, I know you love sex. Do you love me? I want you to want me because of me, not because you want sex. It's like I remember that feeling from heterosexual relationships not anymore, but, like, where I felt so interchangeable, like, it doesn't matter that I'm here, that it's me here. You just need somebody here. And so that idea of just, do you even know me? That's why, like, everything's about sex except for sex. Sex is about being known. Sex is about power. I mean, even some of the fantasies that were about life, I will never forget the one. There was this beautifully written one where the woman was just saying, I'm married to my best friend. I love my marriage. I'm married to my best friend. My fantasy is that in another life, I'm married to a bad boy.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's one of my favorite ones.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm married to a guy who doesn't care about my feelings as much as himself. I'm married to. In my other life, I'm married to her. And we are so tender with each other and we know every single thing about each other.

[Amanda Doyle]

And then the essence and protective and fierce and it's. Yeah. And it's voluptuous and soft and caring and. Yes, I know. Beautiful.

[Abby Wambach]

And then it just ends with, and I'm married to my best friend. That sexual fantasy is about fantasizing that life was different, that we didn't have opportunity costs, that we had a million. My version of that is. Oh, I wish I could just. I can't believe I can't read all the books. Less sexy.

[Jillian Anderson]

But.

[Abby Wambach]

That'S what people mean, right? When there's not enough life to go everywhere I want to go, to read every book, to have every marriage. I want to have. To be gay, to be straight, to be queer, to be all the things. It's the fantasy of not having to. Not having to choose.

[Glennon Doyle]

Fantasy of different.

[Amanda Doyle]

Interesting.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

The other thing.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it's so.

[Jillian Anderson]

Yeah. And it's enough. It's like the whole, like. But I'm lucky enough, but I should be grateful for what I have. I'm married to my best friend. But like the idea that you would have this voracious appetite for life, that's scary.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Jillian Anderson]

A voracious appetite for sex to be what I want, a voracious appetite for life. I want that and also that and also that. And I think it works. Like you said, like, if you can't even do it in your bedroom, how can we have power and outside of it? But I think the reverse is true. Why in the world would someone think that they deserve what they want in their intermost. Nothing's on fire if you're not going to get exactly what you want from sex. Nobody's going to go hungry. No one's gonna. If the actual needs you have, your healthcare needs, your needs to be able to make choices about your own body, if those things are seen as not viable, defendable, valuable needs, why the hell would anyone think that their sexual desires are needs that deserve to be heard?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, Jillian, you're doing. You freaked us the fuck out, so mission accomplished. Yeah. You're so bizarre.

[Glennon Doyle]

And, you know, I just want to say this, for all of the lesbians out there, you've been an icon, like a North Star for so many of us, and I'm just glad to get to know you a little bit because it makes me understand it. I just want to say thank you for, you know, being that for us all these years.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, thank you. It's been a pleasure.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And for the lesbians, it's not. What would Scully do? The underground is. What would Jillian do?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, for sure.

[Amanda Doyle]

So cool. I can't thank you enough for having me on the show. And you guys are doing great work, too, and I so, so appreciate it. I've started a kind of a media hub called ThisIsGeode.com where we're continuing the conversation around the book and for women internationally as well. And there'll be lots of opportunities to come together. We'll be doing a lot of live shows with celebrity readings of the book and stuff like that. So hopefully at some point along the way, I will see you maybe at one of those things in person.

[Abby Wambach]

You know which one I want to read? The Three Lives.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

I want the Three Lives one.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Jillian Anderson]

Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

All right. I'm claiming it. I will absolutely put your name on that one, and it's one of my favorites. It's so cool. I'm so grateful to all the women who wrote in, and thank you for being so present and for being there and for letting me cry on your doorstep.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you, Jillian. Thank you, Pod Squad.

[Amanda Doyle]

Bye. Thank you, Pod Squad.

[Abby Wambach]

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasse, Allison Schott, Dena Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.