Glennon and Abby on Finding Family Success, from IMO

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Can Do Hard Things – Episode with Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach on Finding Family Success

Episode Title: Glennon and Abby on Finding Family Success
Host/Author: Glennon Doyle and Audacy
Release Date: May 18, 2025

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Introduction

In this heartfelt episode of We Can Do Hard Things, Glennon Doyle welcomes her wife, Abby Wambach, to join Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson on the esteemed podcast imo. The episode delves deep into the challenges of balancing family dynamics, career aspirations, and the quest for community support amidst frequent relocations. The primary focus centers around a listener named Shira’s dilemma about whether to move back to New York City for better career opportunities or stay in rural Maine for family stability.

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The Listener's Question

Shira’s Dilemma:

Shira, a 43-year-old mother of two, shares her struggle with deciding whether to relocate from rural Maine back to New York City. Her concerns include:

• Isolation: Lack of a robust support network in Maine.
• Career Opportunities: Limited prospects for her handbag business and her husband’s film editing career.
• Family Stability: Desire to provide an anchored home base for her children.
• Financial Constraints: High living costs in NYC and limited financial resources.
• Childcare: Affordability and accessibility of quality childcare in urban areas.

Shira’s Question:
"Given that there isn't one perfect city or one obvious reason to move anywhere, what should we prioritize when deciding when we have limited financial resources to draw from, but life is too expensive in the city where we can make the most money? What guiding principles should we use when deciding where to set up our family for the greatest stability and success?" ([09:54])

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Discussion Points

1. The Importance of Community and Support Systems

Abby Wambach emphasizes the critical role of community in raising children:

"Kids respond to their situations based on how you act. If you're okay with it, if you're okay, they’re gonna be okay." ([20:24])

Michelle Obama shares her experience as the First Lady, highlighting the challenges of building a community amidst the isolation of the White House:

“I had to try to be so much smaller to fit into a place, to try to build community...” ([44:36])

Glennon Doyle adds that creating intentional friendships outside the family is vital for building a support network:

"Sometimes the support you need is not your family. There's something to the accountability of community." ([41:41])

2. Balancing Career and Family Stability

Abby Wambach discusses the financial and emotional implications of moving:

"Quality of life, too, with your career. Because if you're living in such an expensive place where all your income is going to rent and tuition and you can't save for college and you can't have a vacation, you can't take time off." ([53:22])

Michelle Obama reflects on the necessity of financial stability over material aspirations:

"Our father was pretty clear on not being house poor. He didn't make risky decisions that would put us in a position where he couldn't pay or he couldn't save for college." ([54:21])

3. Parenting Through Change and Building Resilience

Abby Wambach shares her approach to parenting during significant life changes:

"Kids need to know you can bump your head and you can figure it out. Don't do it again. Let's talk about it after the fact." ([61:25])

Glennon Doyle underscores the importance of allowing children to develop resilience:

"They need to know you're okay so that your job actually can be to create resilient kids." ([65:37])

Michelle Obama discusses the balance between fostering independence and maintaining a supportive presence:

“They’re doing it 24/7 on their phones. It’s scarier for them.” ([60:03])

4. Financial Prudence and Avoiding “House Poor”

Abby Wambach illustrates the significance of financial prudence through personal anecdotes:

"Our father was pretty clear on not being house poor. He just didn't make a lot of risky decisions that would put us in a position where he couldn't pay or he couldn't save for college." ([54:21])

Glennon Doyle echoes the necessity of aligning family success with personal definitions rather than societal expectations:

"I think people are starting to ask what success really means for their family, not just keeping up with the culture’s default." ([55:54])

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Abby Wambach:
   "Kids respond to their situations based on how you act. If you're okay with it, if you're okay, they’re gonna be okay." ([20:24])

2. Michelle Obama:
   "I had to try to be so much smaller to fit into a place, to try to build community..." ([44:36])

3. Glennon Doyle:
   "Sometimes the support you need is not your family. There's something to the accountability of community." ([41:41])

4. Abby Wambach:
   "Quality of life, too, with your career. Because if you're living in such an expensive place where all your income is going to rent and tuition and you can't save for college and you can't have a vacation, you can't take time off." ([53:22])

5. Glennon Doyle:
   "They need to know you're okay so that your job actually can be to create resilient kids." ([65:37])

6. Michelle Obama:
   “They’re doing it 24/7 on their phones. It’s scarier for them.” ([60:03])

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Personal Anecdotes and Insights

Abby Wambach and Michelle Obama’s Experiences:

• Move to the White House: Abby shares her fears about relocating her family to Washington D.C. when Barack Obama became President, worrying about disrupting her children's lives. However, she observed that children are more resilient than parents anticipate.

  "Kids are way more resilient, I think, than we give them credit for." ([20:24])

• Parenting Styles: Both Abby and Michelle discuss their approaches to parenting during their respective high-profile roles, navigating guilt, discipline, and fostering independence.

  "Don't try to do this parenting thing on your own. You need help, you need insight, you need advice, you need other people's perspectives." ([44:35])

Glennon Doyle’s Reflections:

• Relocation and Stability: Glennon reflects on her own experiences with frequent moves, highlighting the lack of roots and the continuous search for the "right place."

  "They have a lot of wings, but they don't have the roots." ([15:53])

• Defining Success: Emphasizes the importance of defining personal and familial success instead of adhering to societal benchmarks.

  "What is success for this little family? Like not feeling scarcity, having a cushion, then you start to make different decisions." ([55:54])

---

Conclusions and Takeaways

1. Define Personal Success: Families should collaboratively define what success means to them, prioritizing stability, happiness, and community over societal expectations.

2. Build and Nurture Community: Establishing a strong support network outside the immediate family is crucial, especially when relocating. Intentional relationships with other parents can provide valuable support and resources.

3. Financial Prudence: Prioritize financial stability over high-cost living areas. Avoiding becoming "house poor" ensures that families have a financial cushion to handle unexpected challenges.

4. Foster Resilience in Children: Allow children to navigate challenges and develop independence. Parenting should balance guidance with allowing children to learn from their own experiences.

5. Be Flexible and Prepared to Pivot: Life is unpredictable, and being prepared to adjust plans ensures that families can handle unforeseen circumstances without undue stress.

6. Avoid Parenting Out of Guilt: Decisions about moving and changing lifestyles should be made based on what is best for the family, not out of guilt or external pressures.

7. Maintain Direct Stability: The direct relationships within the family—between partners and with children—serve as the true pillars of stability, regardless of geographical changes.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of We Can Do Hard Things offers profound insights into the intricacies of balancing family life with career ambitions amidst the challenges of relocation. Through candid discussions and personal stories, Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Michelle Obama, and Craig Robinson provide valuable guidance for families navigating similar crossroads. The emphasis on community, financial stability, and fostering resilience presents a holistic approach to defining and achieving family success in today’s dynamic world.

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Relevant Links:

• We Can Do Hard Things Podcast: We Can Do Hard Things
• MasterClass: masterclass.com/HardThings
• ALMA Therapy Services: helloalma.com/hardthings
• Vuori Clothing: vuori.com/hardthings

Transcript

[Michelle Obama]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Hello pod Squatters. I'm sharing something special in your feeds this week. Recently, Abby and I had the absolute pleasure of being guests on a new podcast from our dear friend Michelle Obama called imo. Okay, it took me like months to get how cool that title is right? Get it like in my opinion, but also Michelle Obama. Okay on imo. Michelle and her big brother Craig Robinson, who is such a love bug, bring candid perspectives to the everyday questions shaping our lives, relationships and the world around us. Each week they're joined by a guest and they tackle real questions from real people and they offer practical advice, personal storytelling and lots of laughs. Their topics range from dating and relationships to family and friends, and they really get vulnerable and tell stories that we haven't heard before. As someone who does this work with my beloved sibling, it is so cool to see the side of Michelle that Craig brings out. It's one we haven't seen before. Very special. So in our episode, which was so much fun for us, we responded to a listener's question about where to move her young family, where to live. And Abby talked a lot about what she thinks is most important to our kids and family's happiness. And Michelle and Craig shared stories from their childhood and growing up and then having to answer the question, should we live in the White House? Which is a question we have not yet had to face. All right, y' all, here comes the preview. You can find more episodes of IMO wherever you get podcasts.

[Craig Robinson]

Would we be changing our answer? And if it wasn't New York?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I. I'm biased. I think New York is why I was leaning over to live. I don't. You know, no offense to New Yorkers, but, man. Yeah, you know, I mean, I just. When I'm in New York and I see people with strollers and little kids, I just think it's dirty down there. Pick em up, pick em up. Away from the dir.

[Craig Robinson]

I am so excited to be here.

[Abby Wambach]

So very excited. It's good to see you.

[Craig Robinson]

It's good to be seen.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

What's been going on with you?

[Craig Robinson]

Well, got a high schooler again.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, yeah? Yeah. Round two. Round two.

[Craig Robinson]

Austin's going into high school.

[Abby Wambach]

Is he going to be playing basketball?

[Craig Robinson]

He's properly worried about making junior varsity, which is good because most kids who are freshmen think they should be playing in the NBA, and he doesn't feel that way, so I'm happy about that.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Craig Robinson]

But he is. He's got just enough confidence, but that's because he puts in the work. You know, Austin's a worker. Aaron just shows up. Game.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, your two are pretty exceptional.

[Craig Robinson]

I appreciate you saying that. And speaking of exceptional, Malia and Sasha.

[Abby Wambach]

At the wedding, your oldest wedding. Yeah, we had. They came to the wedding. We did not.

[Craig Robinson]

It was so nice having them around. And, you know, we stayed in an Airbnb. They stayed at a hotel. But because we had the Airbnb and plenty of room, they were at our place almost entirely the whole time. So it was really fun for all the kids, all the cousins to hang out together.

[Abby Wambach]

They had great cousin time. I mean, you know, the four of them together, plus the two little ones there's nothing like it.

[Craig Robinson]

And the two little ones think that they are in their 20s with the kids, with the big crew kids. And, you know, I had to tell them, just settle down.

[Abby Wambach]

Right, right. Well, I'm excited for the kids next journey. This is gonna be a big year, but I think they're gonna do okay.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm gonna segue to our question. We have a great question from one of our listeners talking about family and what to do, where to live and kind of the stuff that we've had to deal with in our family on a couple of different occasions. But we have a great. I'm so excited for these two.

[Abby Wambach]

I know we've got some good guests to help.

[Craig Robinson]

We have some good guests to help with with this question. First off, we've got Glennon Doyle, who's the author of number one New York Times bestseller, Untamed, which has sold more than 3 million copies. And I'm reading this to you. You know these people.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

And she's joined by her partner, Abby Wambach, who's a two time Olympic gold medalist. Now you can see why I'm holding back on this sport.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Settle down, settle down.

[Craig Robinson]

FIFA World cup champion and six time winner of the US Soccer Athlete of the Year award. And I'm just gonna stop right there. You know how hard it is to be a athlete of the year one time?

[Abby Wambach]

I don't know. Cause I've never been athlete of the year, so I assume it's big. That's a rare thing.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, it is rare. It is rare. She's also an activist for equality and inclusion and the author of a number one New York Times bestseller, Imagine that powerhouse couple. You know something about that. Her book is entitled Wolf Pack, and together, Glennon and Abby co host the beloved chart topping We Can Do Hard Things podcast. Welcome. Glennon and Abby, come on down. Yay.

[Abby Wambach]

It's so good to see you guys.

[Craig Robinson]

Guys, have a seat.

[Abby Wambach]

Welcome, welcome, welcome. Thank you guys for being here. I mean, Craig, he doesn't really know how amazing, really amazing you guys are. Your podcast, I did my homework. No, you don't know. Like, I know, but I had the pleasure of talking to you guys sadly on Zoom, and it was amazing. And I was like, right after our Zoom conversation, I was like, I want to be with them. So here we are.

[Michelle Obama]

Here we are.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, got my big brother here, but we're doing some talking about things, sharing ideas, and you two were at the top of my list. So I am so grateful that you have Come to Martha's Vineyard. Taken time off of your busy schedules. And I'm glad that we're in the same room. Cause it really is a different kind of thing.

[Michelle Obama]

So.

[Abby Wambach]

So thank you. Thank you both.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you for having us.

[Glennon Doyle]

This is such an honor.

[Michelle Obama]

Really an honor. Really special. And I think it's so special you're choosing to do this with some brother.

[Abby Wambach]

We'll see how long it lasts.

[Michelle Obama]

How's it going so far? Is it going okay?

[Craig Robinson]

Like she's looking at the side of my head wondering what is he talking about?

[Abby Wambach]

But it is fun. This is our first joint project really, I mean ever in our lives that it's been just you and me.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, but we're glad to have you guys here. We've got a really fun, not fun, but you know, a question that is kind of familiar to all of us. We've all sort of dealt with this as parents and you know, good natured people trying to figure out what's the best thing to do for family and kids.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. And we've got a question from a listener named name Shira. Let's take a listen.

[Listener (Shira)]

Hi Michelle and Craig. My name is shira and I'm 43 years old. My husband and I have lived in New York City for many years. But after having two children in the last five years, we decided to move to rural Maine for more space and more affordable living. However, now that we've been here for a couple of years, it no longer seems like the right choice. We're isolated from a large network of friends or any family and there aren't as many career opportunities for our professions. I have my own handbag company and my husband is a film editor. On one hand, moving back to New York City doesn't feel like a long term solution. I want to provide an anchored home base for my children and the city doesn't really feel sustainable, especially without affordable childcare. On the other hand, there isn't really any other city that offers a surefire support system for our kids care. Our parents are in Massachusetts and California and they're aging and our siblings families are just too busy. And there still isn't a better place for our joint careers other than New York. Given that there isn't one perfect city or one obvious reason to move anywhere, what should we prioritize when deciding when we have limited financial resources to draw from, but life is too expensive in the city where we can make the most money? What guiding principles should we use when deciding where to set up our family for the greatest Stability and success. Thanks, Shira.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay, so a lot of meat on the bones here.

[Abby Wambach]

A lot of meat.

[Craig Robinson]

Gang.

[Abby Wambach]

This is a great question, because I feel like I talk about this all the time. Not so much in my personal life. But we have young staff, and many of them are starting to marry and build their families. And this is something that everyone is grappling with, especially in this day and age where people are so transient, you know, and there's so many options and opportunities. I mean, gone were the days when you grew up in the neighborhood that you were raised in, bought a house down the street from your mom, went to the school around the corner, and spent your life in one neighborhood. We're now all over the place. And so what does that mean for families? And how do you make decisions? I mean, I literally talk about this a couple of times a month with young people who are trying to figure out how to build a life. So it's one of the reasons why I was excited about this. Cause I know there are a lot of people who are grappling with this. But Barack and I have talked about this because he sent us an article. It talked about how unusual the concept of the nuclear family is. I don't know if you guys read that article, but it's like that is a concept. The concept of two parents and children building their lives together is a relatively new concept to this generation. That it isn't really how we were designed to be because we're kind of pack animals. We live in community in ways that I think are more foreign to couples now. Cause a lot of young couples are thinking about, how do I make it on my own? I moved away. I don't have support. And so now I'm trying to do all this stuff, have a family, find childcare. And everybody is trying to do this alone.

[Glennon Doyle]

And.

[Abby Wambach]

And that's just a recent occurrence. So I wonder whether we've sort of lost our direction in terms of what we should be looking for. But I'd be interested in how you guys have thought about it.

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, it's interesting because this question, whether we've admitted it or not, has kind of been swirling around our family from the beginning of time, even before I met Glennon. Do you wanna tell the story of Chase and the plants?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. So we have. Our oldest is now in college, but became in high school, obsessed with plants. So he. His whole room was. There was 30 plants in there. We called them our grand plants. It was exhausting. I didn't ever. I always had to be on guard when he had a sleepover.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, when did he. How did he get into plants? That's very. We don't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

He's an interesting kid. Yeah. But just covering just a jungle. And there was this one plant that.

[Michelle Obama]

Fifty plants.

[Glennon Doyle]

The vines were all the way across, and we had, like, tacks guiding the. So at one point, I said, you know, what's the deal? Where does this come from? And especially this one with the wall. And he said, I think I just really like to be able to see the passage of time and roots because we've moved so many times that I don't have that.

[Abby Wambach]

Wow.

[Craig Robinson]

Ooh, shame.

[Abby Wambach]

Twist.

[Glennon Doyle]

Pull out has not stopped. That was three or four years ago, and that has been.

[Abby Wambach]

We did.

[Glennon Doyle]

We moved all the time, and we moved for money reasons. I was teaching, and we couldn't afford our area. Then we moved close to my parents for the support. Then we thought, like, a lot of people have this experience where you love your parents and you think they're wonderful, and you also kind of revert to a version of yourself when you're around your parents that you don't want to be the version of yourself that's raising your kids.

[Abby Wambach]

Right, right.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I moved away from there, and then in seven or eight moves. And now we're in a situation where our kids don't. You know, our kid comes home from college, but it's not home. Yeah, it's a nice place, but his friends aren't there. So I just love that they're thinking about this, because I think what happened to me, I did a little of the Goldilocks situation. This place is too. This not enough that.

[Abby Wambach]

Right, right.

[Glennon Doyle]

But I think I just ran out of time. I think I just kept thinking, I'm gonna find the place. And then. So now they have a lot of wings, but they don't have the roots.

[Abby Wambach]

The roots, yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. It's just something we think about all the time right now. Like, what do you need in a place? And I like that she said, there's nowhere perfect, because there is nowhere perfect.

[Michelle Obama]

When the kids are younger. You're a different kind of person and a parent than when they're a little bit older, getting into their teenage years and becoming young adults, and so their needs change. And we've been talking a lot about this because we're getting to the point where our youngest is about to go to college. Empty nesters, and we're wondering, oh, are we building a life so that they keep coming back to, or are we building A life that we wanna live in. And I think it's probably gonna be a mixture of both. But the truth is, they're not gonna come back very often as time continues to go on. So we have to figure out a world in which we want to live in with each other, that maybe when they pop in, it's good. This is such an interesting question, because there's work involved. Work versus family, or can you do the both?

[Craig Robinson]

And I think there is a level to the work part that we are not talking about, because gone are the days when you can get a job and end up somewhere for 30 years and get the gold watch and the retirement party at the end. What I always feel like is we're training our kids to not be so sedentary, were they are. Oh, my gosh, I just got let go from a job and I can't operate. That's right, because that's gonna be more the rule than the exceptions.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

I get that feeling because being a coach, we've had to move. Every time there's a job opportunity or a firing, you have to move. And I always put it off as, oh, this is good for the kids.

[Glennon Doyle]

I do, too.

[Craig Robinson]

But it's not necessarily always that way. It may be. I know it's good for the family, but it may not be good for the kids. And it begs the question is, how important is community for these young people?

[Abby Wambach]

The biggest worry that I had when Barack was elected, it wasn't the difficulty of the job. It wasn't the strain or the hardship or the, you know, the threats or all the things you might imagine. I worried about my girls. I worried about moving them out of what was the only community and home they had ever known, where my brother was down the street and my mom was picking them up from school. I mean, we had a really wonderful life in Chicago. And I thought, I'm gonna do the worst thing to these kids. And they were 7 and 10, second grade and fifth grade. I'm going to pluck them out in the middle of the school year, mind you, because the presidency doesn't work for families. You know, it's like all the timing of it is really stupid. So while we're transitioning, you know, trying to hire staff and come up with the initiatives, and Barack is, you know, building his cabinet. I'm thinking, I gotta get these kids in a school where they're not gonna just be any kids. They're gonna be kids with Secret Service. You know, I just couldn't wrap my arms around, of course, how to make this feel good. But the long story short is that they did way better than I thought. I mean, they transitioned better than I was transitioning. And it was interesting because Barack wasn't worried about it because he was more of a transient kid. You know, his mom was an anthropologist and traveled the world. And, you know, he was born and raised in Hawaii, but spent time in Indonesia. His mom was in, she wasn't in. He didn't know his father. He grew up with more instability in that sense. And thought moving is not a big deal. You know, there's 7 and 10. We didn't move at all. My mother, when she left the White House, she moved back into the home that we grew up in. So that's how sort of steady and stable and secure we were. And I was terrified that this was gonna ruin them.

[Craig Robinson]

You were?

[Abby Wambach]

I really could barely focus until it wasn't. Until I got the final. You know, when the kids get invited to their first playdate and it feels like a real friend.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And, you know, that wasn't until March, where I felt like, okay, I can breathe. I mean, forget about everything else that was happening and the attacks and all the politics, knowing that they were settled and we're gonna be okay. That was the biggest relief that I had. But I say all that to say that they turned out okay, because kids are way more resilient, I think, than we give them credit for. And even if your father is president of the United States and you live in the strange museum and you have men with guns following you around all the time, if you're grounded, you know, if you have that place of assurance somewhere, then that kind of gets you through. And strangely, that has me arguing to Shira that, as you were saying, Abby, figure out the life you need to live. You know, because kids, they're going to be gone, and these years are just a blip on the screen in their lives, assuming that they're young and they do better than you expect. If you're okay with it, if you're okay if you're okay.

[Advertiser]

Summer is right around the corner, and Macy's Memorial Day sale is the perfect time to get ready. From May 21st through the 26th, you'll find major deals to refresh your home, outdoor spaces and wardrobe just in time for the season. Get your space summer hosting ready with furniture and outdoor dining sets like the Astaire or Wytheburn nine piece collections. And don't miss big savings on charter club bedding, Cuisinart appliances and Samsonite luggage. Perfect for your summer travel Looking to update your style? Macy's has you covered with summer staples from top brands like Levi's, Inc. Ink, Divi, dolce Vita and on 34th. From activewear and swim to jewelry and sandals. There's something for every summer moment. It's all happening during Macy's Memorial Day Sale in store and at Macy's.com, but only through May 26th. Don't miss it.

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[Glennon Doyle]

The stability the home that our kids have always had is us, right? That is the guiding principle is I see you. I'm letting you reveal yourself forever. And I'm Here. And that's not geographical. Right, Right. But I do think sometimes when I think back and I don't beat myself up about it, I did the best I could, but I. Right when I was freshly sober, I was just growing up. I was growing up and could I do it over again? I would have found a way, I think, to been doing work on myself as I was going along. I think that's what I would say to a new parent. I don't know what the answer is geographically, but I think if I had had some sort of accountability partner. I know that nobody can afford therapy. It's awful. But somebody who may have said to me, you seem to be moving every 18 months. It's like, is it possible there's something going on with you that. That feels like the life for yourself and being right with yourself then flows out to the babies who are just looking at you?

[Abby Wambach]

Really? Yeah. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

I also think that there's something inside of Shira's question that has a desire for structure. And when we have the conversations around families, children, and all of the stuff that I know Shira knows about and a business that she's running and her husband and dealing with, is nice to feel as though that there is some sort of structure in place in our lives.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

But there just isn't.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Nobody thinks like we're all just making it up, all of us.

[Michelle Obama]

And because our parents did it in a vastly different way than most of us are doing it now, my parents are still in the same house that I was born in. For me, it's like I do, like, structure liberates me in a way to be held, to also be free within it. But also as these children grow up and as you grow up, like when we become adults, I think people just assume at 25 that we're now adults forever. Like, my 35 year old self was very different than my 25, my 45 year old self is gonna be very different than 35.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wednesday, I'm gonna be different.

[Michelle Obama]

We're all still growing up and trying to figure out because the world is so different. And so be easy on yourself, Shira, and know that yes, it feels good to have some structure, but also there has to be a fluidity in the creating of these philosophies or priorities. When trying to decide what is most important here. Is it work, is it marriage, is it kids, is it, you know, support.

[Abby Wambach]

Systems around you, this whole notion of growing up, it never happens. I was just having this conversation with Malia, our oldest, who is now how old is Malia? She's. She's 26. Because she doesn't have insurance now.

[Glennon Doyle]

So.

[Abby Wambach]

No, we were rushing. She was like, obamacare.

[Craig Robinson]

Thanks.

[Abby Wambach]

It's like, yeah, thank your dad. Thank your dad. But she just turned 26. But it's. So they live on their own. They live in la. She's writing, directing, doing her thing. And it is so funny when she goes, is this it? Am I an adult now? And it's. I'm like, you know, this is kind of what life is. You know? She's like, but I don't feel like I know anything more than I did three years ago. And it's like, yeah. And you're gonna feel that way at 35 and 45. I mean, there isn't a time when you reach adulthood and you go, I'm an adult.

[Glennon Doyle]

No.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I'm 60, and I'm still waiting to grow up.

[Craig Robinson]

And wait till you have a kid. You won't know what's going on again.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. That's a whole back to the beginning.

[Abby Wambach]

But I think you make a good point about. We've gotta be easier on ourselves in terms of how we define life. In this question is this notion that there's a right way to do this, and if you've lived it, you know, there isn't an answer. There isn't a one way that a family looks, and that's not where the happiness comes from, that you're following some straight, narrow definition of what it means to be a family, whether it's geographically or economic or what have you. And that's a beautiful lesson for kids to learn early, you know, that home is wherever you make it. I mean, I think that's what I learned after our eight years in the White House, is that home is wherever we are.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, we will build the home from within. The external factors are just the nature of life, and life changes and things happen.

[Craig Robinson]

It's really interesting that Mish says that it came to her later, because I always felt that. And I'll tell you when I really felt it. I grew up on the south side, but I played basketball on the west side, which is in Chicago.

[Abby Wambach]

It's like being in another.

[Craig Robinson]

It's like being in another country. It was a rougher area, as far as I could think, but I came to find out that the guys from the west side thought the south side was harder.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, interesting.

[Craig Robinson]

But my dad worked a swing shift, and when he could, he would come to practice. He was the only parent there, and when one of the kids from the other team said, man, you must really love it that your dad comes to practice in the meantime, I was hating the fact that he was the only dad there. And it was at that point that I realized that my family was special. It was at that point I realized wherever my family is, I could feel home. And when I think about Shera's question, I would hope that she would get from us here today, that it doesn't matter where you live.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right? It doesn't.

[Craig Robinson]

And the point I want to get to is that Shera and her husband have to be more empathetic to themselves. I think they're being hard on themselves and understanding that, hey, it's up to you too. And you may not know what the answers are. You may not know, but just love those kids. Love your community. Get involved and have your parents come visit when they can come visit.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, but I think people have to be careful not to parent out of guilt, you know? And what I worry about, or I would caution Shira, is to when you do make that choice, whatever the choice is, don't parent them like you've hurt their feelings, you know, because sometimes people over, they overcompensate for choices that they feel bad about. That's the disservice to kids. It's not moving them. It's not that they can't see their grandmother or they, you know, live in a city or an apartment or don't have a yard. Kids respond to their situations based on how you act.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, I mean, Barack was president of the United States, and I could have felt sorry for my girls. Right. It's like, oh, my God, you know, look what we did to you. And I sort of went the opposite direction. It's like, this isn't about you. We just happen to live in this house. It's your father's job. Every father has a job, you know, so just get on with it. Yep. You got Secret Service. I'm not gonna poor thing you to death. It's odd, but it's what you have. And I think parents, we have to be careful not to push our guilt into our parenting, because that can mess your kid up. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

I got divorced when my middle was seven. She's seven.

[Michelle Obama]

She was 10. Your middle was 10. Whatever.

[Glennon Doyle]

I never know how old they are.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm like that. I barely remembered how Malia was was today.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, my goodness. She's 18 now. Every once in a while, she'll be like. I'm like, your room. She's like, oh, it's just the divorce.

[Abby Wambach]

You know what?

[Glennon Doyle]

You just really do have to. Life is hard, and you can do. Yes, you do have to move them along.

[Michelle Obama]

That just makes me think of. This might be a side tangent, but as a step parent, we call it bonus parent. I have often wondered, and Glennon's been such a wonderful leader in our family in this way and helping me learn how to parent because I became an insta mom like that. In fact, one of the times we were going through a drive through, and they wanted a cake pop, and I said, yes, this is great. I'm gonna get cake pops. And they said, can we have one? I'm like, yes. Okay. And so I ordered, and they said, how many? And I said, all of them.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I said, oh, no, I will turn this car around. Nobody gets any cake.

[Abby Wambach]

No cake pops.

[Michelle Obama]

I was just trying to buy their love.

[Craig Robinson]

Wow. With all of them, you would with.

[Abby Wambach]

All the cake pops. I know.

[Michelle Obama]

So Glennon, luckily, she was there and she put the kibosh on that. Yeah, but I don't know why I went down this road.

[Abby Wambach]

I just. No, but it is about the parenting. And sometimes I did overkill on the parenting of trying to be normal. To the extent that one time, Malia was on punishment for a semester. I mean, it was too much, right? It was a whole monster.

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, did she do something like. Did she murder a teenager?

[Abby Wambach]

No, she didn't murder a human. She did teenage stuff. But this is. You know, every time something happened and there are teenagers in the White House, I'm thinking, oh, my God, this is a sign that they're gonna be on the street. They're gonna be addicts, and this is really gonna mess them up. So I gotta put down the hammer, right? And so the hammer over this incident was, you're grounded for a semester. And it didn't start out as a semester. First it was a month, and then I let her off, and then she didn't make curfew or did something like that. And, you know, I'd have these lectures and this guilt stuff. And, you know, my oldest, who's very sweet, she understood how to just look me in the eye and go, you're right, Mom. I don't know what got into me. You're so right. She just sucker me. And, like, I'm gonna think about that. And, you know, and I'm just like, this kid. Then I was like, you're just. You're punking me.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, so now it's a semester.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, and Barack is trying to. He's trying to be the president, but also trying to be a good parent. And he's like, yeah, whatever your mom says. Although he's looking at me like, semester. I was like. I said a semester, and I cannot go back.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, you can't.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, so.

[Craig Robinson]

Wait. Wait a minute. Stop. Abby, what's the longest you've been on.

[Michelle Obama]

Punishment in my life? Like when I was a kid.

[Craig Robinson]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, I was a pretty bad.

[Craig Robinson]

Kid, but the longest One term.

[Michelle Obama]

I got grounded once, and it was one night.

[Craig Robinson]

And. How about you?

[Glennon Doyle]

I was grounded for a quarter. We had quarters. I got a couple Cs, and that was it. But I used to get grounded outside. Cause all I wanted to do is sit inside and read.

[Michelle Obama]

So when I was grounded.

[Craig Robinson]

That sounds familiar.

[Abby Wambach]

I must go and be with people now.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that was horrible punishment. Never got to see a girl.

[Craig Robinson]

How long have you been grounded?

[Abby Wambach]

I was never really grounded.

[Craig Robinson]

Never grounded.

[Abby Wambach]

But I never. I wasn't a bad kid.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

I wasn't doing anything.

[Craig Robinson]

Who never gets grounded in you. Who never gets grounded and then assigns a semester.

[Michelle Obama]

But somebody who is worried about the choices her husband is making.

[Abby Wambach]

That's exactly.

[Michelle Obama]

Is royally messing up her children. I get it.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

Because, look, anytime our kids do a very, very minor, minor situation, I'm like, oh, they can't ever leave the house again.

[Glennon Doyle]

She thinks it's cause you think it's your fault. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm like, oh, it's because you're only.

[Craig Robinson]

Grounded for a week, or whatever it was.

[Michelle Obama]

The world knows us. It's because of money.

[Abby Wambach]

Whatever it is, you don't want them to be entitled. No. You know, you don't want to get any of those signs. That's exact now. So let me finish. I was wrong. That was too long.

[Craig Robinson]

No kidding.

[Abby Wambach]

It didn't work. It didn't have the desired effect, so. But I was learning is my point to Shira is like, sometimes we overcompensate our. You know, I mean, and this is a strange position. I didn't have any role models of kids in high school in the White House.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, my goodness.

[Abby Wambach]

And your dad's the first black president. Come on, give me a break. I was kind of flying blind on this, you know, so much so that, you know, I learned with Sasha coming up, who was rarely on punishment, but of course, Malia heard about it. It's like, why isn't Sasha on punishment? It's like, because what I did to you was wrong. So I'm not gonna repeat it just because you did it. But the broader point is, is that sometimes our guilt, our issues get in the way of our parenting.

[Michelle Obama]

So true.

[Abby Wambach]

And, you know, making a move and making changes, moving into a smaller house, moving away from friends, all those things can feel really heavy as a parent. And I guess my experience is, like, it didn't really hurt them that bad. They turned out to be pretty good kids. And it wasn't because of the semester punishment.

[Craig Robinson]

It wasn't.

[Abby Wambach]

I was just trying to keep her off the front page of people.

[Craig Robinson]

The burden of being the oldest right there.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And also, I think, like, where Shira might be at, too. I think we are in a world that we can make lists of pros and cons and we can talk to the people. We can even send in a podcast question to Michelle Obama, Tell me what to do to figure out. But the truth is, and I think Glennon could probably expand on this a little. I think she already knows.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

I think deep down, there's a knowing inside of her. She's just looking for confirmation. Some which way, because at the end of the day, nobody knows what the heck they're doing. We just have to make decision after decision. And some are right and some are wrong.

[Abby Wambach]

Some are wrong. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And you just kind of like, flow with it.

[Abby Wambach]

Flow with it.

[Glennon Doyle]

And the fact that she's even asking it, I talked to this one parenting expert that said that the trouble is that all the parents that come to her to say, am I doing this right? What should I do? Those are the parents that don't need her.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

The fact that Cher's even asking these questions, even saying, what does success look like for my family? That's a great question. Like, I wish I had done that. Sit down with your person and say, what does success mean? Because you don't wanna take the culture's default of that. That's a beautiful question. You know, what does it mean? What do you want your adult children to. All I care about is that they are who they are and that they know that they have a home in us to constantly return to. And so if that's success, that's enough. Right.

[Craig Robinson]

So would we be. Would we be changing our answer if it wasn't New York?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I'm biased. I think New York is why I was leaning over here. I don't. You know, no offense to New Yorkers, but, man, you know, I mean, I just. When I'm in New York and I see people with strollers and little kids, I just think it's dirty down there. Pick them up, pick them up. Away from the dirt, you know, I mean, you walk the streets of New York in white pants and they're dirty by the end of the day. I was like, you got your kid down there?

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

So I'm. You know, Chicago is a very different city. You know, it's smaller, it's cleaner, it's just New York is just one of a kind.

[Michelle Obama]

It really is.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, and it just seems like a hard way to live. You know, little ones, little ones in a stroller going down the subway. I'm just like, wow, that looks hard.

[Michelle Obama]

It does. I'm a three day New York City person. I'm with you three day max. Two nights, three days and I'm solid. I love it. I'm like, this is. Love it for those three days, the wonderland. And then I'm like, please help me get out of here.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is there something though I would. I do think like when I hear you talk about the way that you were raised and the community I do crave that I wish for people, for young couples. I don't think it has to be your family. Like not everyone is lucky.

[Abby Wambach]

I agree.

[Glennon Doyle]

Sometimes it can't be. Sometimes the support you need is not that. And I think there's a lot of pressure that it's that or nothing, which is no good for a lot of young couples. Sometimes you really do need to start new. But there's something to the accountability of community. I think it's just so easy to when things get hard. And I think I did this many times and to just eject. And there's something that doesn't develop character wise as much I think in that like I do wish for people some kind of steady community in one way, but that not that has any form.

[Abby Wambach]

I completely agree with you because that's my lifeblood. I mean, I've got. I'm blessed to have a brother that I love. My mother was there for us. We had a good extended family. But you know, a lot of my support came from friends that I built, the friendships that I built outside of my family. But I do know that, that you have to have intentionality to do that. And it is well worth the effort. You know, at every stage of my kids life I made sure that I knew other parents, you know, that I got to know them so that I would know who my kids were going to a sleepover with. And that required me to invite some people to dinner or go to l with a mom or you know, extend myself and when we got to the White House, that was even weirder and harder. Right. Because here I am, the first lady of the. You know, no matter how I acted, I come in with all the first lady smoke, you know, the Secret Service, the, you know, the assistance, the putting me in a hold room, and, you know, we were just a disturbance to the, you know, Ethereum. I had to try to be so much smaller to fit into a place, to try to build community, because nobody really could come up to me. I mean, as friendly as I might be, there's just a wall of, you know, and if you came up too fast, you might get a. You might be in a lock hole. You know, so there was some physical barriers. So it was incumbent upon me to. Or to cozy up to somebody on the bleachers and start a conversation or to put a call in to the mom and to thank them. And from that, each phase of my life, whether it was in Chicago, on the south side, or in the White House, I built this community of moms and other friends and people that I could call and get the inside scoop on where the party was for the sophomores and whether the parents were actually there and did they have drugs. And, you know, you're only going to get that information from other parents. Your kids aren't going to tell you.

[Michelle Obama]

No, they're not.

[Abby Wambach]

You have to tell yourself that that's important, and then you have to make the effort to build that community. So Glenn and I agree. I mean, our community is our friends as well. And they saved me during those years. And for Shira, I think that, you know, wherever they go, that should be the goal. Don't try to do this parenting thing on your own. You know, you need help, you need insight, you need advice, you need other people's perspectives, and that's as important as your job.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, it's like, so you might have a great career, and you might have a wonderful business, but you need to have friendships that nurture your family.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And you've gotta make time for that, and you've gotta be intentional about that. And to say that it is just as important as the success of your handbag business that you have this community of support and love, and your kids are gonna. They're gonna benefit twofold.

[Michelle Obama]

It's so true. And, Craig, I'm gonna get you excited about the line of conversation. I think we'll go with this. Get the oldest into sports. That is because I've moved a lot in my life, and we've moved a Couple of times. Getting the kids into sports is like, first of all, the kids are the same age, so they're gonna grow up. The parents are around ish. The same age as you. And nowadays, unfortunately, although your dad was great, nowadays, I think it's the opposite that it's kind of bizarre how much the parents watch the practices.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm like, just let them practice.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, stop.

[Michelle Obama]

Cause they're there, like, yelling at them, and they're trying to coach them. It's not as. It's not as sweet as what your father was doing, but it's like insta friends. Like, you sit on the sidelines and you're just like, hey, how's it going? You know, what's going on? So that's something for Shira and her partner to think about.

[Craig Robinson]

No, I completely agree with that. And our moving around was made easier because our kids were in sports.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

So they had a natural group to have an affinity with, and there's nothing better. And even your girls.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. No, we always had them in sports. They were not sports kids. But they were required to do a team sport and an individual sport. Yes. You know, it's just like, just get out there. Just learn how to compete, you know, learn how to lose. You know, we don't care if you.

[Michelle Obama]

Like it or not.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. That's what we did with our middle one. I didn't understand that. I was like, well, but if they're not good, should they not play sport? And what I. I have never. During the divorce, I was thinking about putting one of them into more therapy, and Abby said, how about not? And we just put them in soccer. And I thought, that's strange.

[Abby Wambach]

Is that therapy?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. But really, wow. All the things that you practice, it's like a little container to practice safely. Everything that's hard about being human.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Full of lessons.

[Glennon Doyle]

It really shaped her completely. I think.

[Michelle Obama]

It really did. And look, we learned very quickly that sports were not gonna be a thing for her. She came off the field one day and she was talking to her friend, and she said, you know how, like, you're out there and you're miserable and.

[Glennon Doyle]

You hate it and you're terrified the whole time.

[Michelle Obama]

You're scared. And her teammate was like, no.

[Abby Wambach]

What?

[Michelle Obama]

And she came home and she said, I'm not supposed to be terrified?

[Abby Wambach]

I said, no, honey, no, no.

[Michelle Obama]

So she now does music, and she's doing great at that.

[Glennon Doyle]

They said, here's a guitar.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Try this something. And you cry at night before practice. Every night. You're just nothing but tears.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Craig Robinson]

I want to get back to Shira here. I just want what all this was for Shira. This is. And one of the things she talked about was being where she is, up in rural Maine. The resources for her family are limited, which is why she was thinking about moving to New York. And I love the fact that you're thinking, Abby, that both of you are like, she knows the answer. She wants some justification. But there is some concern for parents and people if they're not making enough money for their families. And let's just say that they weren't thinking New York. Right. They were thinking Chicago or LA or Dallas, Texas, or somewhere.

[Abby Wambach]

Another big, expensive city. Expensive city.

[Craig Robinson]

What might help their overall resources? How do you look at that?

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, I was sure I'd be looking at preschools. I mean, when I was teaching. I had to quit teaching when I had my second baby because I couldn't afford to teach.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. I could not afford child care to go. Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. So then I ended up starting a preschool in my home, which I do not recommend teaching.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah, sure. Don't do that.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, no. But. But, wow. There are so many places that do have beautiful, affordable daycare. You just have to find them. And getting kids started in a really strong preschool and elementary school, to me, feels like the most important thing. I would look at that. I mean, it's tricky because she said, I want to be in a city so I can make money, but the cities are too expensive to live in.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, that's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

So it's a double bind, that is.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, it's almost like they've gotta really run the numbers right? Because sometimes people make snap decisions. And this is one of those things, like, especially if it's New York, where you. You might price yourself out of a life just being there. So now you're working to work.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

And that's when I think, you know, you gotta start thinking about quality of life, too, with your career. Because if you're living in such an expensive place where all your income is going to rent and tuition and you can't save for college and you can't have a vacation, you can't take time off, you know, you're working to live. Those answers are in the numbers. I don't know how the average family can Afford to live in New York City. It's a harder way to live. Some people don't have a choice. But if you have a choice, I personally wouldn't wanna be so tied to my job and a salary because you just never know what's gonna happen. People get laid off, somebody gets sick. When you have a family, you gotta have a margin for error.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

A kid could get. You might have to, you know, take off of work. And this is one thing our father was pretty good at. Cause I know when we were little, I always wanted a house. You know, I was a little girl that wanted a house with stairs and a station wagon. There were things in my mind. And we lived in a teeny tiny apartment over our aunt's house. And my mom, eventually my aunt died. She gave the house to our family. That was the only reason we could afford to own a home. I don't think think that it mattered that much. You know, it felt like it when I was a little girl. But in hindsight, I thought that our life was brilliant. You know, we didn't have a lot, and that wasn't what made me who I am, having a house with stairs. But our father was pretty clear on not being house poor. So he just didn't make a lot of risky decisions that would put us in a position where he couldn't pay or he couldn't save for college. So the trade off was we didn't have a house with stairs and a nice fancy station wagon. And we weren't worried. You know, we weren't living hand to mouth. Things felt fine and good. So I do think it's important for families not to push themselves to the margins where things can't go wrong. That's right. Where you're, you know, beholden to one thing, you gotta leave room for error.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's why it's so beautiful to ask yourself, like, what is success? I mean, the amount of communities that I've stepped into where the idea of enough is not even a thing. There are communities in New York and everywhere where you will enter and never. You will never see the end to what? The keeping up with the Joneses, the keeping up with the. It just becomes a pursuit of something that is unattainable. And so to actually ask yourself, what is success for this little family? Like not feeling scarcity, having a cushion, then you start to make different decisions. If your idea of success is different than whatever culture you're in is telling you it is. I think people are. I really feel like people are starting to do that. I think the like emperor has no clues of the. Of the treadmill of more and more. It's an empty promise that now is feeling empty. And I think these are the questions people are starting to ask. And it's really cool. People are gonna make different decisions.

[Craig Robinson]

Do you all feel. And this can be anybody. I'm getting the impression that parents today are rushing their kids to be free of their kids.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, they want their kids stable so they don't have to worry about them anymore.

[Craig Robinson]

They want kids out in the world and doing the right thing and supporting themselves so they won't be bounce back kids and people other. And I feel like I never felt that from my parents. I could always go back home. As a matter of fact, when I was going through my divorce, I did go back home.

[Glennon Doyle]

Me too.

[Craig Robinson]

And I moved upstairs where I grew up with my kids and my mom lived downstairs. It seems to me that some of the mental health issues that our young adults are having are just the fear of going out into the real world and not being ready. And then you can't come back home because your parents are trying to push you away for whatever reason. It could be a valid reason or it could be that they just wanna do their own thing as parents. And have you guys seen that or thought about that?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. I mean, when you say it, it makes me think of, oh, because that's what we were told is success. And that is actually, like, in my heart, I understand that they need to be able to be independent, but that's not what I think, want or think of. Like, I want there to be an interdependence. Like, especially because. Because of the fact that we move so much. I am their community. Like, we are each other's community. And I don't. It doesn't make sense to me. Like, other cultures and other countries don't have that rigid of a structure. I do think maybe that is a thing that we could let go of as the barometer. Complete independence by 21.

[Michelle Obama]

I also think that I've been informed in a little different way because when I left for college, I never went home. And I knew that was gonna happen. I knew that I was a good soccer player. I knew that I was gonna be gone. Like, I never even went home for the summer. Like, I was just always training with the national teams, with the youth national teams. And so there is a part of me that knows that that was probably not healthy and probably not great for my overall connection, probably with my birth family, but. And there's Another part of me that is so grateful because it forced me to take care of myself and become this force, this independent person who has a ton of agency. I'm not scared of much. Anything that comes through the door, I'm able to handle it.

[Abby Wambach]

It's true.

[Michelle Obama]

And so I see our youngest, kind of. She's in soccer. She's getting recruited right now. It's very exciting. And there's going to be a time where I know that if she really wants to go and signs with the college, I know that she's gonna come back less than the others. And that's gonna be hard on this one. And it will be hard on me, too. But I have walked that walk.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's why I was trying to keep them mediocre before she came. That was my whole job. Seriously, every time somebody'd be in gymnastics and somebody would say, they're getting really good, do you wanna do the. I was like, oh, no.

[Abby Wambach]

Now let's go swimming.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, mediocre was the goal. I didn't have to give up my weekend. And then this one came, and now they're being recruited.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, Lord. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

So it's interesting, you know, there's probably no right or wrong way necessarily. I do think that there's a wisdom in our children's generation and also a little bit a softness. Both, I think, because of parents getting more therapy and being more open to listening to what their kids have to say and talking more about trauma and being more in that kind of frame of mind. These children have more wisdom and they have more understanding than they see the world differently. And they experience the reality of their world very differently than we did on television screens. They're doing it 24. 7 on their phones. And I also think there's a part of the generation that our children are growing up in that is. It's not in the real world as much. And so it's scarier for them.

[Abby Wambach]

Abby. I agree. I mean, I feel the feelings of wanting to be somewhere in the middle. It is a delicate balance. Because you want your kid. I want my daughters to feel independent. I really want them to have the confidence to know that they can figure this stuff out, that life isn't rocket science, that it's a lot of common sense and, you know, and some of that you're only gonna learn by doing, which means you're gonna have to fail. And I think a lot of parents are afraid of watching that failure. It is the hardest thing to do, to watch your kids walk into a wall that you kn. You Told them not to walk into it until they hit it and get a lump on their head. They just won't learn it. That's a painful thing for us. If you keep your kids from that experience, a bump in their head, you're robbing them of their own competency.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. They need to know you can bump your head and you can figure it out. Go to the doctor, put some mice on it, don't do it again. Let's talk about it after the fact. But as you get older, I shouldn't have to walk you through everything. I think it's a constant exercise of extending the leash. You know, always err on the side of making it longer, not letting it go. But it's for them to say, you like the bump on the head. You got this, you're good, you know, and these aren't hard choices, but I think sometimes parents are, you know, holding on a little bit too long.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And with that said, I want my kids to. When things are really bad, right? And you're really in a bind, don't even question. Because we know you work hard. We know who you are, we know that you're not trying to get over. We know you wake up every morning giving it a shot. But life can be hard. So take some risks because you'll land softly here. But you can do this. I think that's always my message. And you start with Shira. When your kids are five and two, you know, start making decisions no matter what they are, whether it's moving or staying, or you go to one school or you don't. You tell them, you can handle this, you got this. And then you're watching from the gate, just making sure everything is okay. But they should know that you're watching, you know, they shouldn't know, but you're watching, you know, but they should think, look at what I did, you know, I started a new school, I made a new friend. I figured out my own homework, I wrote my own paper. I got a C, but I didn't get an A paper. Cause my mom wrote the other half of it. You know, this was my C. It was my. Is my victory, my failure. And I think parents making decisions that make sense for the whole, you know, and giving your kids credit for being resilient, letting them build that resiliency muscle, I think that's what readies them for life, which is our ultimate job, not to have them in our basement. Because if that was, my kids would still be sleeping in my bed. They would not. They Would Barack is the only reason that, you know, they would not. I love sleeping with my kids. Anytime I got a big one, you sit on my lap, I'm just like, so.

[Michelle Obama]

But same with Glennon. Don't feel bad about it.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, I would still do it.

[Michelle Obama]

We had two twin beds on the floor.

[Glennon Doyle]

Don't tell them.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. Look at who they're not judging.

[Michelle Obama]

They were just like.

[Craig Robinson]

She's saying, why didn't I think of that?

[Michelle Obama]

She's like, dang it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. I am picturing that. It's like, yeah. Then they just roll over.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's a good point, though, to figure out for Shira what Shira needs and wants. Because what you're talking about when you say all of that, I'm thinking we do that because we wanna still be needed.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

We do that because we're like, oh, I'm right now in the. My children are becoming adults, and my role is completely different. It's the hardest. The hardest part of parenting I've done. And there is the tendency to create the codependent thing because you don't know who you are without that. And so it could be the most important thing to be creating a life where your kids know you're okay so that your job actually can be to create resilient kids.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because some of us get confused and think our job is to keep them needing me.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so to build the community that they need, that Shara and her partner need, and to build a career that she feels enlivened by and a life. Then her kids can know she's okay, and they'll be okay. Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

That's the perfect segue to. And I don't want Shira to be saying, ah, I wish I hadn't sent in this question. Cause I don't know any more. What are our takeaways? What are a couple of takeaways for Shira is this to be able to go. She and her partner go back and at least formulate a plan for a.

[Michelle Obama]

Decision, Sit down with your husband and figure out what you need. I mean, I think Michelle was saying that write it down, figure out what is at the bottom line, what the cost is going to be, what the pros of that cost, and then go deep, deep down and figure out what you want. I think we're all afraid to actually figure out what it is we really want. And we tend to stay in the I should lane. And so get brave enough to go figure out what it is. And it sounds like she's good at it. Because she's a handbag maker of her own. That sounds probably like something that she wanted. And geographically, it's not about the geography. I don't want to take away your guys options.

[Abby Wambach]

No, no, it's the, that's absolutely true. It's like the job of the couple, the family, the adults, is to make the adult decision. And don't be afraid to be guided by what the adults need. But don't parent out of guilt. Once you make the adult decision, don't feel sorry for your child because you did something that you wanted to. Love them, give them stability, you know, help them grow in their new community, in their new surroundings, but still parent.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would just say, what is success really talking to each other about? What does this successful family. What do you mean by that? Most of us don't even get to the differences of those ideas until 10 years in. But we've all been taught different things from our families of origin about what success means. I think sometimes people don't think enough about, yes, let's build community. But the community you're in right now is the two of you. So what does a successful dad? What does a good dad mean to you? What does it mean to be a good mom? Because those are loaded things that we don't pull apart. We need to really get the mental load written down and really assign things. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? The support often needs to be worked out within the family first. Right. So I think there's beautiful conversations to be had and anybody sitting down to figure out what success is instead of defaulting to the culture is gonna be better off.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And there are many ways to build a family.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

There's no right answer. There really isn't. And you guys both said is filled with roadblocks and stumbles. And even when they do all the pros and cons and lay it out, they may make a decision and it doesn't work.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

And guess what? Change it. You know, you get a do over. There are so many do overs in life. There are few things that really, you know, ruin a kid or ruin a family. There's just, you know, if there's love, you know, if there's effort. Right. And if there's trust, all the rest of it, you're just figuring it out.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Forever tries, we always say, family, forever tries. And make your little plan.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah, we'll see. That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

Trust me.

[Abby Wambach]

That's what you thought, right?

[Glennon Doyle]

A Year later, the plan will be different. I always think the only stability we really have is, like, you and me right here. That's the stability. You and me, and then me and Emma and then me and Tish. It's like a direct. I'm looking at you, you're looking at me. That's the stability we have forever. The geography, even our family structure change. Sometimes stability isn't what you need to step into the next most beautiful imagination of your family, but that direct line, person to person, that's what has to be stable, I think.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Wow. Well, Shira, I hope this has been helpful. Has this been helpful for me?

[Michelle Obama]

What are you gonna do? She's gotta send in follow up on.

[Abby Wambach]

And then we can judge it.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

Terrible decision, Shira. Well, I don't know how you got that out of what we just said.

[Craig Robinson]

I must say that the thing that I got, and this could be my coaching background, is you always have to be prepared to pivot and not be afraid to pivot. And I'm hearing this from your family. I know it happened in our family, as parents, we've all had to pivot, and the kids are better for it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

So I really appreciate that on Shira's behalf. Thank you all for that.

[Abby Wambach]

Abby Glennon, thank you, guys. Thanks for taking the time being a part of this incredible conversation. I want to do it again and again. Yeah. It's good to see you guys.

[Michelle Obama]

Me too.

[Abby Wambach]

Really.

[Michelle Obama]

It's good to meet you.

[Craig Robinson]

It's good to meet you. We have to talk about elite athletes one day. Just.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. We can do a show on that. We can see an episode on that. We can heckle them.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, we just. Absolutely. I love this conversation.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you so much for having.

[Craig Robinson]

Thank you, guys. This is all right. It's great to meet you both.

[Abby Wambach]

Be well.

[Glennon Doyle]

It.