Glennon: Is it Insanity or Life?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "We Can Do Hard Things" - Episode: Glennon: Is it Insanity or Life?

Overview

In this poignant episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle delve deep into the intricate balance between maintaining control and embracing the unpredictable nature of life. Titled "Is it Insanity or Life?", the conversation explores the metaphorical cliff and abyss, representing the tug-of-war between rigidity and chaos in our daily experiences. Through personal anecdotes, philosophical insights, and candid discussions about mental health, the trio offers listeners a heartfelt exploration of navigating life's challenges with authenticity and vulnerability.

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Introduction to the Theme

At the outset of the episode, Glennon Doyle sets the stage for a candid exploration of the fine line between sanity and insanity. She introduces the metaphor of the abyss—a realm representing loss of control, depression, oppression, and the myriad challenges we face daily.

"It's about sanity versus insanity. It's about the abyss that we all live so close to... and how to survive that abyss."
— Glennon Doyle [03:04]

The Metaphor of the Cliff and the Abyss

The core of the discussion revolves around the metaphorical cliff and abyss. The cliff symbolizes a place of control, where one maintains a steady grip to prevent falling into chaos. In contrast, the abyss represents embracing life's full spectrum of emotions and experiences without the filters and protections we often impose.

"As you are on the cliff, you are driving, you're in control... But when you go off the cliff, you have to metabolize everything."
— Unknown Speaker [46:47]

Abby Wambach elaborates on her personal connection to this metaphor, describing her constant effort to stay on the cliff by "white knuckling the handlebars," a term she uses to depict her strategies to maintain control amidst life's unpredictability.

"I'm just white knuckling the handlebars so I don't veer off into the abyss of insanity, even though it looks kind of great."
— Abby Wambach [17:44]

Intrusive Thoughts and Mental Health

A significant portion of the episode addresses intrusive thoughts—unwanted, often distressing thoughts that can invade one's mind. The hosts share personal experiences, illustrating how these thoughts can range from worrying about accidents to more profound fears about failing in caregiving roles.

"Sometimes I'll be standing up at a church, and I'll be like, 'What if I just scream, fuck you all?'"
— Abby Wambach [11:58]

Glennon and Amanda also share their intrusive thoughts, highlighting that such experiences are universal and not exclusive to any one individual.

"What's better than two nose rings? Two nose rings."
— Unknown Speaker [03:25]

Shifting from Control to Embracing Life

As the conversation progresses, Abby discusses her journey of letting go of the rigid control she once held, leading her to feel overwhelmed and "desperate" in her efforts to connect and love without the safety nets she previously relied upon.

"The abyss, the purple, swirly, silvery, sparkly abyss that has been calling to me since I was 10, is not insanity. It is life."
— Abby Wambach [50:49]

Glennon encourages Abby, recognizing her courage in facing these overwhelming emotions and reassures her of her strength and resilience.

"The courage that it's taken for you to do this... I think slowly but surely, there's this confidence that's brewing inside of you."
— Glennon Doyle [43:13]

Personal Anecdotes and Emotional Moments

Throughout the episode, personal stories serve as anchors for the broader themes. Abby recounts moments from a trip to Seattle, observing the vulnerabilities and pressures experienced by young athletes and their families.

"I can tell that she's just about to melt... she has listened to every single podcast and read every single word we've ever written, and that has gotten her through the hardest times."
— Abby Wambach [26:48]

Another touching moment involves Abby's realization of the deep connection between her narrative writing in Untamed and her real-life experiences, highlighting the transformative journey from self-protection to embracing life's full spectrum.

"It's like my writing self is just me five years ahead of me... This is where we're going."
— Abby Wambach [54:29]

Philosophical Insights and Analogies

The hosts draw parallels between their experiences and established psychological models, such as Dr. Dan Siegel's model of healthy minds, which emphasizes balancing chaos and rigidity to achieve mental well-being.

"What you've got is... where you want to be is in the flow of the river between some chaos and some rigidity."
— Unknown Speaker [50:48]

Glennon adds to this by suggesting that adapting to the abyss involves learning to flow with its inherent unpredictability rather than imposing rigidity.

"You'll learn how to flow with the purple, swirly, glittery mechanism that's in the abyss."
— Glennon Doyle [48:58]

Conclusion: Embracing Life's Fullness

The episode culminates in Abby’s profound realization that what she once perceived as insanity is, in fact, the fullness of life. By removing the barriers between herself and life, she discovers a deeper, more authentic existence characterized by vulnerability, love, and present-moment awareness.

"It's life. It is being fully human and present without all of the things that we put in our lives to protect ourselves."
— Abby Wambach [50:49]

Glennon echoes this sentiment, highlighting the importance of embracing both the fear and the beauty that life offers.

"There is no crystal ball until that happens... Over 40,000 businesses have future proof themselves with NetSuite by Oracle."
— Amanda Doyle (Interjection about Advertisement) [26:48]

(Note: The above quote contains an inadvertent inclusion of advertisement content and should be disregarded in the context of the episode's main themes.)

Key Takeaways

1. Balance Between Control and Chaos: The metaphor of the cliff and the abyss illustrates the constant negotiation between maintaining control and embracing life's inherent unpredictability.

2. Universal Struggles: Intrusive thoughts and the fear of losing control are common experiences shared by many, emphasizing the importance of community and honest conversations.

3. Embracing Vulnerability: Letting go of rigid coping mechanisms allows for a more authentic and fulfilling engagement with life, despite the accompanying challenges.

4. Personal Growth Through Adversity: Facing and navigating through overwhelming emotions fosters resilience and personal transformation.

5. Connection and Authenticity: Genuine connections, free from pretense and protection, lead to deeper love and understanding both of oneself and others.

Notable Quotes

• "I just have to try." — Abby Wambach [08:12]

• "It's not insanity. It's like the truest reality, right?" — Abby Wambach [50:49]

• "We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are." — Abby Wambach referencing Anaïs Nin [32:04]

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Conclusion

This episode of We Can Do Hard Things offers a heartfelt and relatable exploration of balancing control with the chaos of life. Through honest discussions and personal stories, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda provide listeners with insights into embracing vulnerability, navigating mental health challenges, and finding strength in authenticity. It's a compelling reminder that while life is undeniably hard, confronting its complexities with openness and bravery can lead to profound personal growth and deeper connections.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

It's hard to find a great mentor who can help me level up my dream mentor, Amy Poehler. So I was really excited when I heard she had a class on Masterclass. With Masterclass you can learn from the best to become your best. It's the only streaming platform where you can grow with over 200 plus of the world's top experts. For just $10 a month, an annual membership gets you unlimited access to every single instructor. One of the classes that really stood out to me was James Clear's course on building new Habits. I had been struggling with consistency and his practical advice helped me create a daily routine that's actually sustainable. Plus, every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] hardthings that's 15% [e-mail] hardthings don't wait. Start learning from the best today.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

I love Weird Glennon. Oh, Weird Glennon might be my favorite. Especially the one with now two nose rings. Sister, have you seen her two nose rings?

[Amanda Doyle]

Bring yourself closer.

[Unknown]

What's better than one nose ring? Two nose rings.

[Abby Wambach]

And it was an accident.

[Unknown]

What's better than two nose rings? Who knows?

[Abby Wambach]

That's good.

[Unknown]

I went over to my friend's house last night and good job. She was having a real hard time, so I was dropping things off and then she invited me in and she just read me dad jokes for 45 minutes. Oh. And I really recommend that to people.

[Amanda Doyle]

Dad jokes.

[Unknown]

Here's one for you. A pirate's parrot flew away. But honestly, it was a weight lifted off his shoulder.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, boy.

[Abby Wambach]

I just have a pirate one. What is a pirate's favorite letter?

[Unknown]

ARR.

[Abby Wambach]

ARR. You would think, but no, it's the C they love.

[Unknown]

What's a pirate's worst exercise?

[Abby Wambach]

Planking.

[Unknown]

Okay, since we've already lost them, what does a very proper owl say?

[Abby Wambach]

Whom.

[Glennon Doyle]

Whom.

[Unknown]

Ah, damn it.

[Abby Wambach]

You know that one's gonna get that one. Oh, my God, I love a grammar joke.

[Unknown]

Okay, all right.

[Glennon Doyle]

This is a perfect segue, though, into Weird Glennon.

[Abby Wambach]

We love you because look at how.

[Glennon Doyle]

Fucking weird we are.

[Abby Wambach]

Good luck with this one. Let me know what you think after, but only if it's nice. Enjoy. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. It's been an awkward start for us. Abby keeps making jokes how.

[Glennon Doyle]

And nobody's laughing. They're funny, but nobody's laughing.

[Abby Wambach]

I think if they're funny, that's when you know if it's funny is when people laugh.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, it just means that your guys sense of humor is off.

[Abby Wambach]

That's true. And first of all, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Did I already say that?

[Glennon Doyle]

No.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, welcome to you pod squad today. This is one of those episodes that is coming to you from Weird Glennon. Okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, fun.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. So here's what I have decided. I'm going to give you an update about my life experience lately.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, shit.

[Abby Wambach]

God knows the world needs another update of my life experience.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, we're doing it. Okay, this is fun.

[Abby Wambach]

Now, everything that I'm about to say during these 50 minutes makes perfect sense to. Okay, I do not know if it's going to make sense to everyone, but here's what I have is this kind.

[Unknown]

Of like Abby's joke.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it might be. How?

[Unknown]

Her joke is very funny. She doesn't know whether people are going to experience it as funny.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is this why this was a good segue?

[Abby Wambach]

Segue. Okay. The reason she's saying sigu, y'all, is.

[Unknown]

Because it's like a legume, but it's a segu.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. I have spent my entire life thinking that people were making sigues in their conversations in my books, and I just learned that there is no such thing as a sigu maybe a year ago.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Also, I will remind everyone it's a.

[Unknown]

Segue, by the way.

[Abby Wambach]

It's a segue.

[Unknown]

If people are like, what the hell are you talking about? It's also not one of those things that tourists do on sidewalks that appear very dangerous. It's a cross between a scooter and a bicycle. And it looks like it's from Mars.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. But I knew that there was a word called segue in the world. Like, I say that in my life. And let's make a segue so we can get to the topic.

[Glennon Doyle]

Did you just say segue and segue were the same?

[Abby Wambach]

I thought segue was a completely different word. I'd never heard anyone say it in real life.

[Glennon Doyle]

But what did you think the meaning of segu was?

[Abby Wambach]

I thought that a segue was very similar to a segue. This is so just like. I didn't know that nothing goes houry.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Everything just goes awry. Whether it's in a book or in real life. There is no going houry.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're such a book nerd. It's so cute.

[Abby Wambach]

Shout out to all the kiddos who spent their childhood in books instead of listening to human beings because we have a confusion. You're so cute about words. Okay, what I was going to say is, what I've decided is that it's not that it doesn't make sense or not it makes sense to me. It might not make sense to everyone, but two things can be true at the same time. I did shoot this whole concept of this episode and my experience to my therapist the other day and said, do you think that people are going to resonate with this situation? And she said, glenn. And as always, I think we just have to try. I don't know what that means. All right.

[Glennon Doyle]

The rest of us have to try to understand.

[Abby Wambach]

She said, I think that I just have to try.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, you have to try. Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

She understood it, but I do pay her to understand it. So I'm not sure. When I was little, maybe not so little Maybe like in my. In elementary school, middle school maybe. Okay. We lived on this street and then there was this bike path that was a mile away. Okay. So it was too kind of dangerous to get our. We lived on this main road and then the intersection was another highway. So we would put our bikes in our van, in the back of our van and then drive the three quarters of a mile to the beginning of this bike trail. And this would happen like every once in a while. Okay. And then we would all get on the bike trail as a family and ride a couple miles. I don't know. A. A big deal. Now what I remember from these times is that it was a beautiful trail kind of through the woods, but to the sides there were cliffs. Okay. There was like drop offs to either side. And I just could not believe there were no fences. It was just a trail, a little bit of trees, not much, a few feet, and then just death.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, so you went mountain biking?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, no, it was like an asphalt trail. Like there was like three year olds walking on the trail.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. So it's proper concrete. Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, concrete for sure. You don't think I was like. I was on like my. A little 10 speed.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Well, when you said cliffs and death, it did indicate a little more rugged terrain. I see, than a community bike path.

[Glennon Doyle]

I was excited. I was like, shit, we're going to get you a mountain bike today.

[Abby Wambach]

It was cliffs, though.

[Glennon Doyle]

I believe you.

[Unknown]

Your perception was it was cliffs.

[Abby Wambach]

It was cliffs, all right. Do you not remember this? It was horrific cliffs and I used to ride my bike and the whole.

[Glennon Doyle]

In Virginia.

[Abby Wambach]

No, sister, do you not remember?

[Unknown]

This is suburban Virginia. I'm struggling to figure out where we're talking about.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, remember Interstate van lines?

[Unknown]

Yes, I do remember. So for all of you, we're placing you in Burke, Virginia on the intersection of Burke Road and Rolling Road. Interstate Van lines where they used to have those letters, they would say something, it would change like every month. Yes, close to West Springfield High School. Actually equidistant for West Springfield High School and Lake Secondary.

[Abby Wambach]

Go Bruins, Bruins, Bruins Hats off to thee two Thy colors true Will be.

[Unknown]

Strong United stand Fight the battle all England chip. Fourth purple and gold.

[Abby Wambach]

Go Bruins.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow.

[Abby Wambach]

Anyway, there were horrific cliffs to either side. And if you don't remember it, then I don't know. Okay. So all I would think the whole time I would squeeze my little handlebars and I would think, I hope I don't turn myself and plunge myself into the cliff.

[Glennon Doyle]

Solid intrusive Certain death.

[Unknown]

Certain death.

[Abby Wambach]

Right now.

[Glennon Doyle]

I. Intrusive thoughts. Yeah, I get it.

[Abby Wambach]

That's what my therapist said. Intrusive thoughts. Interesting. Okay, I wasn't thinking, I hope I don't accidentally fall off.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, oh.

[Unknown]

You're like, I hope I don't do something absolutely crazy.

[Glennon Doyle]

All of us do that when we're driving the car. They're like, what if I just turn the wheel and I go into the oncoming traffic? We all do that.

[Abby Wambach]

So when you're on a balcony, are you thinking, I hope I don't jump off this balcony?

[Glennon Doyle]

Every once in a while I'll have an intrusive.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, that's so. That makes me feel better. Yeah, okay.

[Unknown]

Same.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like a little fun game we play with ourselves to not do it.

[Abby Wambach]

Sometimes I'll be speaking when I used to, and I'll be like, standing up at a church, and I'll be like, what if I just scream, fuck you all. Fuck you. Fuck you all. I hope I don't do that. I might.

[Glennon Doyle]

One of my intrusive thoughts is when we're driving in the car and you know how people, like, don't stop short with me.

[Unknown]

Seinfeld.

[Glennon Doyle]

Seinfeld.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Don't stop short with me. I have this intrusive thought that I do the don't stop short with me, but I hit you really hard.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, that's nice.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's so bad.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, no, that makes me feel better because I do. Like, if I'm holding a child, it's one of my favorite things about myself is that people will just hand me babies. And when I'm holding baby, I'm always thinking, what? Don't. Don't drop the baby. Like, which I would never do.

[Glennon Doyle]

Don't on purpose drop the baby.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Do you know my worst intrusive thought?

[Abby Wambach]

What?

[Unknown]

The one that bothers me the most is I would travel with the babies when they were very, very young on planes. Like, we always have business meetings across the country when my babies were, like, three weeks before. We did.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, we did.

[Unknown]

Always. And so I would be traveling with them. And you know how the airplane bathroom where they have this tiny little thing where you change their diaper in the bathroom? So I've done that like, a thousand times. And only in the last couple years, I've realized, oh, my God. That little thing was right on top of where the toilet is, where it just goes through the toilet into the sky and. Oh, my God. And so I think it's in the past. I'm Literally never going to do it again.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hold on.

[Unknown]

But I wake up in the middle of the night once a week thinking my baby could have fallen off the diaper thing into the toilet into the sky.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hold on. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Abby Wambach]

To outer space.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, hold on a second.

[Abby Wambach]

Don't be logical about it. It's just a fear that she does.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know, but I just wanna. I wanna. I need to. I fly. Enough. Our shit and piss does not go out into the sky.

[Abby Wambach]

No, they keep it in a container.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, but you're saying out into the sky.

[Unknown]

Well, I don't know none about it is logical, but I'm gonna find out when we.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Abby Wambach]

That's a really good point, Amanda.

[Glennon Doyle]

I didn't know if you.

[Abby Wambach]

Who isn't flying out.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, it's going into a bin.

[Abby Wambach]

Either way, it wouldn't be great for the baby.

[Glennon Doyle]

Also, the baby's not fitting down that little hole.

[Abby Wambach]

I do not think that these guys are logical.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't know. We're really yucking your intrusive thought here.

[Abby Wambach]

I need to know this. Do you guys ever just lay in bed? I think this usually happens to me in bed, but do you ever just lay in bed and think of a scenario and then lose your shit about that scenario? That is definitely not happening. But, for example, you go through the whole thing. Well, I'm always in a home invasion.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Every night I'm in a home.

[Glennon Doyle]

I do that, too. I'm thinking, what am I doing? Fire.

[Unknown]

Home invasion.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. What am I gonna do? What door am I gonna lock myself behind? Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And then do you, like, come to. And it's like 10 minutes later and you are full on so upset about that thing. And then you have to remind yourself that didn't happen. And you're just in this bed still.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're not the hero of your little story you're telling.

[Abby Wambach]

Zero times. I've never been fucked.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're the victim in your story. I'm always the hero. That's interesting, huh?

[Abby Wambach]

That must be nice.

[Glennon Doyle]

What about you, Sissy?

[Unknown]

I always figure I need to pressure test the plan a thousand times, and then that's how I end up with, you know, ordering another. Well, another fire ladder or something. Because I'm like, mm. I realized I have a soft spot in my plan of what I'm gonna do.

[Abby Wambach]

Fire ladder. So I gotta.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hey, you wanna know something? I just saw the other day on a reel, if you keep a bat by your bed. Cause, you know, a lot of people don't believe in guns and stuff, which is great. I don't either. If you keep a bat by your bed, put a long sock on the end of it. Because if you go to hit somebody with it, an intruder, and they go to stop it, the sock will pull it off and then you can hit em again. You get two whacks at them.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, so that's good. And then also in my head, I make up the scenario. I go through the scenario. Lots of horrific things happen. There's. It's just. It's endless. Then I wake up sweating, but I'm not even ever asleep. Now, back to what we were talking about.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah, the cliffs.

[Glennon Doyle]

The cliffs of Virginia. Suburbia.

[Abby Wambach]

It was freaking. The woods. It was an epic landscape.

[Glennon Doyle]

Got it.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

We're there with you with the toddlers and their parents walking. Yeah. Anyway, that is a memory that is seared into my mind. And as both of you know, I think that that actual situation morphed with kind of a way that I see myself and my life, which is. As you know, I've told you many, many times, I always feel like I'm kind of walking on the edge of a cliff. Okay? Like that's what I'm doing. I'm walking on the edge of a cliff and I feel an abyss to my side. And the abyss is like this sea of purple swirly, silvery, sparkly, dark purple. Like, kind of scary, but also like a lot of depth and a little bit of magic in it. And the abyss is what I have always thought is insanity. It's kind of like alluring. It's like calling. Okay, it's calling.

[Unknown]

It's like a siren calling to you.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, yes, yes. But it's my job, as I have understood it, is to stay on the motherfucking cliff. Okay?

[Unknown]

Just stay the course.

[Abby Wambach]

Stay.

[Unknown]

Do not.

[Abby Wambach]

Glennon, do not jump. Are you going to jump, Glennon? I hope I don't jump. I don't know who gave me the power to decide. That's what pisses me off. We just make these balconies and we just assume that people aren't going to use their own volition anyway. All the things that I have employed, all the strategies, eating disorders, alcoholism, anorexia, medication, controlling other human beings with my brain. These have all been strategies to keep me on the cliff. This is what I have told myself I have to do. I'm like white knuckling the handlebars. Whether I'm parenting, whether I'm working, whether I'm just taking a walk, whether I'm in a friendship. I am just white knuckling the handlebars so I don't veer off into the abyss of insanity, even though it looks kind of great.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, that's interesting.

[Abby Wambach]

Now, lately, I have, one at a time, taken away all of my white knuckle handlebar strategies. Okay. And it kind of feels like I just let go of the handlebars completely. Feels a little ridiculous and stupid and reckless. Okay. Lately, I have felt like I'm in the abyss.

[Glennon Doyle]

So you've jumped.

[Abby Wambach]

I feel like I am in the abyss. And what interesting. I would like to explain a little bit is. I don't know how to describe it. So I'm just gonna tell, like, some stories about what it feels like to be in the abyss. Okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

This is fun.

[Abby Wambach]

Nothing is good. Okay. Is that true? It's not that nothing is good. It's that I am overwhelmed all the time.

[Glennon Doyle]

Mm.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. Maybe I shouldn't say I am overwhelmed all the time. I feel overwhelmed all the time. I feel like everything is too hard or too much or too good or too bad or too. Everything just. It's just so much muchness. Here's how a few things that it feels like to be in the abyss. I have no distance from things anymore. It's like all the things that I had to protect me from life or from being human are gone. Just gone. All of my protections, all of my little armor, weapons, all the things. And so now it's just me and life. Okay, so a few little things. We took this trip to Seattle because our kid was in a soccer tournament. And I do not know how we're supposed to handle our kids in soccer tournaments. These children are teenagers, young teenagers. This kid plays at a high level. So all of these freaking college coaches are watching them. All of their parents are gathered around, like, staring at them. You can, like, feel the stress and the love and the hope and the control and the pressure. And they love each other so much, but they're kind of, like, competing against each other. I just feel like I'm going to die from the vulnerability of it.

[Unknown]

Yeah. It's like so much is riding a lot of how they do. It isn't just perception is going to affect the opportunities they have because they're trying to get recruited.

[Abby Wambach]

Right?

[Unknown]

So it's like. It really is. That kind of how you play matters, and not just to us, egotistically.

[Glennon Doyle]

So the vulnerability you're experiencing is the vulnerability on behalf of our child, or it's just, like, the vibe of the totality of what's happening for all of these kids.

[Abby Wambach]

It's an abyss. I sit there, and you can feel that so many of them are doing it just to, like, make their parents happy. And their parents are just. You can just feel the muchness of all of it. So I'm handling it. I'm doing okay. Sam is a coach from uf. She's so wonderful. She walks over. She and Abby are friends.

[Glennon Doyle]

Go Gators. Because I went there, so I know them.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm half watching the kids, half just. Sometimes I just try not to. I try to distract myself. She's telling me about her kids, and they sounded so wonderful. I asked about one of them, and she's like, let me show you this video of my kid. And her kid had just gone through this season of. I think it was soccer. And their team had, like, won no games, and they had kept trying. And then they won, like, one game at the end of the season. And this video was of the game ending, and Sam was holding the phone, and her little boy could, like, they blew the whistle, and they had one. And this kid, you just see his face. Like, he can't believe it. And then he just takes off from his friends and runs to his mom. So you see him running at the camera, and then you see the camera go down, and she's hugging him, and then he quickly hugs her, and then he runs as fast as he can back to his friends, and his, like, fist is in the air, and he's, like, hugging his friends. She's showing me. I just start bawling. And Sam is like, what's wrong with your wife? Like, what?

[Glennon Doyle]

No, she really appreciated that you were so touched by it, because it is a touching thing. A, to have your kid run to you, and then B, to get it on film. And then C, after he hugs her and he's running back, he's kind of, like, jogging back to his team to go celebrate again with his. His teammates. He, like, looks up and has this take it all in moment that, like, finally they did it. Finally they had this moment, you know, like, he finally had it. And as a parent, she caught it all on video. Like, get out of here with that.

[Abby Wambach]

It's beautiful. Beyond the end.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Unknown]

For or for yourself.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

So then that Night. Emma goes off with her friends, and Abby and I are in this random city we don't know in Seattle, and we wander into this tiny little restaurant. It's like the size of a kitchen. It's so small. And there's these little tables. There's probably 10 tables in the whole place. We walk into the restaurant, and there's this couple, this man and this woman. Young, Maybe, like lower 30s, I don't know. And they're eating, and the woman looks over at us, and you just. Her face just. You can see she's recognized us in a very meaningful way. Like, you can tell when it's somebody that is very connected to our work in the world. I can tell that she's just about to melt. So I just walk right over. She stands up. It all happens very fast. She's hugging me. The man that's sitting with her. No time has passed enough for her to explain anything to him or to make any explanation of what's going on. The man waits patiently for us to hug and then says, very gently, he turns to me and says, would it be okay with you if I got a picture now? I don't know why that made me so. I felt like, oh, my God. He is so in touch with his partner that he knows she didn't say, get a picture. Like, I'm watching the whole thing. There's no way this guy knows exactly who we're like.

[Unknown]

He just was so attuned to her.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And he knew that she wasn't gonna wanna ask me because she was so respectful, but he knew that it was gonna be important to her and that he should step in for her and get what she's gonna want to leave this with. And so we take a picture. Abby and I go sit down, and then, of course, I'm, like, all emotional about the whole thing. And then they come over when they're leaving, and I say, I just want you to know what we've been talking about is how beautiful that was, that you didn't have to ask that. He knew that he asked so gently that you all, too, are so attuned. She told us that the reason she was so emotional is that they live an hour away, that she's going through a very hard, interesting time, that she has listened to every single podcast and read every single word we've ever written, and that has gotten her through the hardest times, that she's been relying more heavily than ever on this podcast lately. And that that night, something was just like, go to that restaurant an hour Away from their house. Whoa. And she came. We leave the restaurant and we're walking home. And this woman, she's in this different woman now.

[Unknown]

Different woman, different woman. Okay?

[Abby Wambach]

She's in a big SUV and she's got, like, 17 kids in the car, okay. And she is driving by, and she just screams out the window, glennon, Glennon, we love you, Glennon. And she's waving and all the kids are waving. And I just thought, I cannot believe this. I spend so much time being scared. I'm so scared of, like, the Internet and, like, people hating me and, like, people. I feel so constrained all the time because I'm scared.

[Unknown]

Like, the world is a scary place.

[Abby Wambach]

The world is scary. Yeah. And so I have to be constricted and on guard and, like, white knuckling all the things. And I'm always white knuckling public things, too. Like, I don't exactly know how to handle it. I don't know what's appropriate. I don't know what I should protect our kids from. I don't know how to do it. And so I always feel constricted. Andrea Gibson tells the story about how they went to the Grand Canyon when they were really fucked up and, like, really in their depression. And they were. They came to the Grand Canyon and they looked at it and they were like, eh. I mean, whatever. I guess it's a big hole. You glad I drove all this way. And then, oh, it's so funny.

[Glennon Doyle]

If you've ever been to the Grand Canyon. That's hilarious.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And then they were in a different spiritual place in their life and they went back to the Grand Canyon and they just thought, oh, my God, is this what it has always been? Like, this is the most unbelievable thing I've ever seen. And they talk about, of course, the Anais Nin quote, that we do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are. And that experience in Seattle is like, is this how it's always been? Like, am I just not afraid? Is it. I don't know. I felt overwhelmed by the beauty and love of it. And then a week later, we go to the Noah Kahn concert. I'm standing there with the girls, and one of our kids has her girlfriend with her, and the other kid has her good friend. And Noah is just like. He does this divorce song, you know, it's about divorced kids. And he says, shout out to all the kids from divorced families. And our kids just. He's saying, all my love. And they were. All the kids are just the whole Hollywood bowl is just bawling and screaming and dancing and losing their minds. And I'm looking at my kids, and they're bawling, and I'm like, oh, my God. I was seeing them for the first time. Like, they are children of divorce. Like, they had their family separated. They have two houses. I had. One of my strategies of gripping my handlebars is just to tell myself stories about how everything's okay because I did it. And we're. It's not a broken family because we're a whole family, because we. We're. We're fixed. We're fixed. We're not broken. We're fixed.

[Unknown]

We're the exception. We're the exception. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

It's kind of sad, but not really. It's fine.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's kind of sad.

[Abby Wambach]

It would be sad if it wasn't.

[Unknown]

So magical and unique and extraordinary.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. So I was seeing them for the first time, and it did not kill me. It, like, overwhelmed me to the point of, like, explosion. Right? I was bawling with them. I was like. But it did not kill me. And I realized these narratives that I make are another strategy to keep me on the thing. I will tell you what it is. I will arrange all the chaos into a story with characters. And this is your character, and this is my character. The other day, we went to see our son in New York City. And being in the abyss while raising adult children, because this has been the biggest doozy for me. We walked around New York City for two hours, and then we went to a dinner. We took our son to dinner with two of his best friends, him and two girls, and they go to college together. And they talked about their adventures and their lives for two hours at dinner. I've never seen our kid so alive. They just love each other so much, and they take such good care of each other. And he just had this, like, sense of. You could just see the belonging and the joy. And I think I thought that, like, I was supposed to make everything so perfect, that he would always just want to have that with us. That, like, our house and our town and our. Would be his place of belonging and joy and connection, you know? But when I saw that, I thought, okay, I felt such relief because I felt like he has it. And then I felt relief that I was relieved, because it made me know that I don't need it to be us. I just need him to have it, you know, in general. So on the way home, I have this new fun thing that I think is from early menopause I'm not sure what it is, but it's a really good time. And what it is is that I have constant motion sickness. Okay. I used to be able to spin around in circles for fun, and now if I'm in a car for longer than five minutes, if I glance at my phone, if I. I can get motion sickness from watching a movie that's moving too fast. Like, it's just ridiculous. So. And I know this. I know this, but we get in an Uber, like, one of those big Ubers in New York city, and it's 11pm and Abby and I are going back to our hotel, and we've got the kids. The kids. They're 21, but they're in the back all lined up, the three of them just chattering, chattering, chattering. Cause they're about to go off and do whatever they're. This is.

[Unknown]

This is the beginning of their evening.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. This is lunch for them. Right?

[Glennon Doyle]

This is pregame, right?

[Abby Wambach]

Right. But they're talking about, like, relationships, and one of them turns to Chase and says, well, you're securely attached, so you're good. But I almost died. I just almost exploded. I'm like, wait, no. It's all I could do just to not stop them and say, did you say, he's securely attached? Do you think that's because of me? Do you. Can we talk?

[Unknown]

Did your child agree?

[Abby Wambach]

He did.

[Unknown]

Like, yes, he did. Oh, Jesus. Just retire.

[Abby Wambach]

That's the closest you can get to an. A valedictory address as a parent, you know that, like, how much that meant to me to hear, because it has been. I have felt like. I'll talk about this in another episode, but I have felt like maybe I did everything wrong. Maybe, like, I have started to see myself from his eyes in a way that has freaked me the fuck out and made me lose myself a little bit. And I think it might just be something that happens as they get older. But it's been hard. It's been the hardest phase of parenting for me. And it's all been internal. Nobody else has done anything. It's just been internal.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I'll never forget that moment as long as I live. Because Glennon and I got. Got to do the look. Even though she was experiencing insane nausea, she looked at me and I looked at her, and our eyes were like, we're gonna talk about this later.

[Abby Wambach]

Is he securely attached? How do they know about secure attachment? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Can I get this in writing? Can. Okay.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

So I am. They are in the Back, like, Abby and I are in the two, like, bucket seats, you know? And I am looking at them, sister, and I am so sick, I am close to throwing up. I cannot stop looking at them. I can. I was like, I don't care. I just. They were so. They were. The three of them were the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. And I could not stop looking at them. We get to the hotel, I get in my room, I throw up for two hours. I'm sick for 24 hours, okay? I would do it again. It was too beautiful to look away from. Being in the abyss is much, much messier than being on the top of the cliff. I feel out of control all the time. I feel overwhelmed all the time. I feel very messy. I feel confused. I feel so much more. And what I figured out just about a week ago is that the abyss, the purple, swirly, silvery, sparkly abyss that has been calling to me since I was 10, is not insanity. It is life. It is life. It is being fully human and present without all of the things that we put in our lives to protect ourselves. And the reason why being in the abyss is so overwhelming is because it's supposed to be. Is because it's just love. It's like to be really alive with a wide open heart and to be that present with things you love and things you're afraid of and all of your messy mistakes and all of it. It's not insanity. It's like the truest reality, right? There are definitely times where I feel like I enjoyed being on the cliff better. It was easier to have some distance between me and everything. And I kind of feel like I'm annoying now. All of the things that kept me on the cliff also gave me this kind of, like, cooler, detached thing where things didn't affect me as much. So I wasn't so desperate. Like, I feel very desperate lately. Desperate to, like, I don't even know for what. Like, for the kids to understand me in every way, for everyone to know I love them. I just feel desperate all the time. I think I'm more annoying. I think I'm more needy. I think I'm less efficient. I'm more confused. But you know how, like, if you're having dinner with somebody and they have a couple glasses of wine or pills they don't need, and they act a certain way, and you don't know who they are really, their reactions might be a certain way and you take it as who they are, but the thing is between you, like, you can't really know who they are, because it's not their natural reaction.

[Unknown]

Or you wonder, is that their actual reaction? Who you deal with normally is not them like it is. There's like an alter. You're like, oh, now I'm dealing with Betsy 2.0. Yeah. There's a 1.0 and a 2.0 version of you. Which one?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. So I feel like even if I now am, like, say, to the kids or like, less together, less held together, less pretending that I know what I'm doing, less detached, less cool and calm, I do feel like they can feel my love more probably.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

It's true. Abby is obsessed with viori. I am a little bit too. Do you think you have a favorite item?

[Glennon Doyle]

They're T shirts. They never get less soft. They're just perfect for everything. For going to dinner, for actively going for a walk, for working out, whatever you want to do. They're the best. Sleep in them.

[Abby Wambach]

You wear them to work out, and you wear them out to dinner. That is true.

[Glennon Doyle]

I wear Viori tops all day, every day.

[Abby Wambach]

You wear them under suits and you wear them to bed.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Unknown]

It makes perfect sense to me when you're talking about the cliff. Right? The cliff is so much simpler because you only have one job. Your job on the cliff is very, very clear and clarity is very helpful. And so your one job is to keep your ass on the path. And so you might have constant fear, but the only thing you have to metabolize is fear. That's the only emotion. You just have to keep feeling the fear, only emotion coming in. And your only job is to control your direction. So I'm controlling my direction. I'm only feeling the fear. That's all I have to do. And so that's simple. And the promise of that is that it'll keep you safe. But the highest upside, reward is remaining in fear and control for the rest of your life. But when you go off the cliff, you have to metabolize everything. No matter what it's coming at you. It's like the Rilke quote, let everything happen to you.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. No feeling is final.

[Unknown]

You just have to let everything happen to you. And so you're like up and down. You can't even anticipate what your job is because every moment is going to either make you buckle to your knees in like the glory of the Shakespearean moment of the five year old on the soccer team or break your heart because you realize your baby's never going to be a baby. And whatever, it's just, what, letting everything happen to you. Which is the promise and the reward.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And the terror.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And it's like when you're on the cliff, you are driving, you're in control, and then the swirly abyss, you are surrendered to the swirling. I do just feel like I'm taken over by a swirly situation. And every once in a while I'm just popping up and like yelling something I don't even know. Like I have absolutely no control.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I think what's happened because like, with everything new like this jumping into the purple swirly abyss, it makes sense to me that it feels uncomfortable. It makes sense to me that you feel confused and overwhelmed and everything is happening all at once, seemingly. But I think part of what you're going through is that you've brought a little bit of the cliff, dare I say, rigidity and control and trying to apply some of those mechanisms that you learn into this purple swirly Abyss. And so I think that that's why it feels uncomfortable. So makes sense, of course, you would do that. Like, you bring what you know into new experiences. And so, to me, it feels like it won't be as uncomfortable forever because you will learn how to flow with the purple, swirly, glittery mechanism that's in the abyss.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, it's interesting that you use the word metabolize. Like, how do you metabolize it all? Because I think it's another version of, like, the word anorexia is sort of ridiculous because it, like, implies that it's all about food, but it's not. It's just a complete way of life. It's the person on the cliff with the handlebars. I did not know that I could metabolize food like everyone else and just keep going. That was a unbelievable discovery for me. And I think that I also didn't know that I could just metabolize feelings, that it wouldn't kill me. The feelings that have come up in the last six months, two years, I can't believe I've had days where I didn't think that it was okay, like, how strong they were. But all of the mechanisms that I used were to protect myself from big feelings because I felt like I would not be able to metabolize them and go on. And, like, the discovery that I had with physical things and food is the same as the discovery that I'm having with emotional things that I can. In fact, it might not be pretty. It might not look like a day I used to have where it's just one thing after the other on the to do list. And I can handle all of it because I'm not in any of the things, but I have survived.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Unknown]

Do you know what you're talking about? Reminds me a lot of Dr. Dan Siegel's model of healthy minds, because it's a different analogy from the cliff and the water. But he talks about how there are, like, two banks on a river, and one bank of the river is chaos, and a lot of people live there. And that's this idea that we feel all out of control in our life. We are caught in this turmoil. We have no control over it. It's like instability, anxiety, fear, all the things. And then the other side of the river is rigidity. And that is this idea that if we impose enough control over everything and everyone around us, and we just never, never try to adapt to anything going on, but we stay the course of where we are, then we will just maintain control and nothing Bad will happen to us. So one side of the river is, like, pure fear and anxiety. The other side of the river is, like, utter stagnation. Because all you're trying to do is have control. And, like, where you want to be is in the flow of the river between, like, where you are finding the balance between some chaos and some rigidity, where you're like, I do have some ways of living that I want to have. I do have this, like, canoe to keep me afloat, But I'm letting it flow like, I am letting the river take me where it's going. So it's like, I don't know exactly how we're gonna get there. I trust we're gonna get there. Like, I am flowing. I'm not fighting the rapid. I'm going, you know, and so it's a really interesting way to think about it. And also, I think it's a good clue. Like, when life is full of chaos, we're probably, like, hugging one of the banks too much. And when it's just full of stagnation and we feel threatened by the idea of being flexible about anything, we're probably on the other side.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, that's what I've got for you today.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know, but I feel impressed by you.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because I have watched you experience a lot of this discomfort over the last many months, and as the person in your life, that it does not sit very well when you're uncomfortable. I like to fix problems. It has been difficult to watch, but I think slowly but surely, there's this confidence that's brewing inside of you that you're like, I'm not going to be killed by my emotions. The world is not going to kill me. Yes, this is a lot. Yes, this is overwhelming. And I think that the courage that it's taken for you to do this, especially because it's making you look at your whole life, all of the relationships, your children, me, your family, all of it. And you're like, I'm going to survive this. Like, I feel this. I've got me energy. And, boy, is it really scary for me, because I like to be the one that's got you. That's interesting, but I'm sitting on my hands, and I am doing my time also. But I just think that you are coming through this extraordinary period of your life, and it's just been really beautiful to watch.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you, babe. I think I was thinking last night about how all of these things that I have had to discover through this work and actual embodiment and actually taking Things away that I was using as protection from life. I was writing this in Untamed. There's whole chapters about feeling it all, about not being killed, about the ache and entering the ache and, like, how that is life. And, like, the ache is where the bravest people meet each other and how the only thing worse than feeling it all is missing any of it. And I was writing all of that while severely anorexic, heavily medicated, all. I didn't know that, but it makes me emotional because it feels like my writing self is just me five years ahead of me. It's like an arrow pointing me towards, this is where we're going. And your brain knows it. Your spirit knows it before your body does it. But, like, you cannot Glennon, learn anything. But the hard way. Like, you cannot. It's just gonna be a doozy of a five years, but this is where we're going. I feel like a lot of people write and it's like, this is where they were. And mine is always like, this is where I hope to be soon.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, you're imagining the truest, most beautiful life.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. So anyway, thanks for listening, you all. And, yeah, I actually just feel like. Thanks for listening.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're welcome.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

Thank you for sharing.

[Unknown]

And on another day, I want to know how you think you slid into the water. Like, how you got yourself off the path, and was it just removing? And I don't mean just as if that wasn't a herculean effort, but was it the removal and then not relying on the coping strategies that got you in the water? You know what I mean? Because that would be if you know that you're a person on the path and you want to submit to the swirl.

[Abby Wambach]

I think it's the roomie thing. It's like our job is not to seek for love, but to remove all the obstacles that we have built between ourselves and love. And those things are different for everyone. So it's one at a time removing the walls that you needed, that you built. I mean, look, we were all raised by human beings, which means that our first environments were places where we learned what was going to threaten our attachment to them. So in our situation, everybody has different situations with their parents, but when we were in a situation where our muchness, big feelings, big appetites, was absolutely disallowed, and it didn't always have to be in words. It was in body, it was in energy. But, you know, when I learned very early that messiness, bigness, gooeyness, juiciness, confusion, indulgence, indulgence, big feelings, big whatever was absolutely a threat and not what we're doing here. This is not hard to put together. Okay. Like eggshells. Keep it small. Keep it quiet. Of course. So how do you do it? You figure out what was disallowed. What part of your humanity was disallowed in your earliest environments is still disallowed in your culture. You figure out what part of you threatened your survival in the first half of your life. And your thriving in the second half of your life is reclaiming that thing that's good that threatened your survival in the first half. And it's different for everybody because everybody has a different family and culture and life. You know, time they're here, it's always different. But we all have things that we have built up to protect ourselves from life. And I have a few more. And the adventure of a lifetime for me has never been like, go see this place or go bucket list y things. I'll do it because Abby wants to do it, but I'm just like, okay, here's another hotel. Like, okay, that's a mountain. Like, it doesn't do it for me. What? The adventure of a lifetime for me is to, like, experiment with removing blocks between me and life. Because for me now, like, the more walls I remove, I am as moved to tears. Taking a walk and seeing a dad with his kid playing rock, paper, scissors on the sidewalk as if no one else is around and lighting each other's faces up. There's no way I would be more moved by the Grand Canyon. It doesn't matter where you are if you have nothing between you and life. Life is everywhere. Breathtaking. You don't have to go anywhere. It's like, God.

[Glennon Doyle]

So, yeah, I think that that's a perfect way to end.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, I love you all. Thanks. I don't know. I don't know.

[Unknown]

Beautiful.

[Amanda Doyle]

Bye.

[Abby Wambach]

We love you, POD Squad. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the podcast. While you're there. If you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dena Kleiner and Bill Schultz.