Gloria Steinem: Laughing Our Way to Liberation (Best Of)

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things: Gloria Steinem – Laughing Our Way to Liberation (Best Of)
Release Date: March 9, 2025

In this compelling episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle engage in a profound and heartfelt conversation with iconic feminist leader Gloria Steinem. The dialogue delves deep into personal histories, systemic challenges, and the power of authenticity and laughter in the journey toward liberation. Below is a comprehensive summary capturing the essence of their discussion.

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1. Personal Background and Mother's Influence

Gloria Steinem opens the conversation by reflecting on her mother's struggles with mental illness and unfulfilled ambitions. She shares poignant insights into how these early experiences shaped her understanding of systemic failures and personal resilience.

[06:18] Gloria Steinem: "I think many of us had mothers who could not be fully their own talented, autonomous, independent selves. And that's a source of sorrow for us."

Gloria discusses her mother's role as a pioneering journalist whose career was derailed by a nervous breakdown, leading Gloria to step into a caretaker role from a young age. This dynamic instilled in Gloria a sense of responsibility and an awareness of the societal structures that limit women's potential.

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2. Authenticity and the Power of Talking Circles

The conversation shifts to the importance of authenticity and creating safe spaces for women to share their truths. Gloria emphasizes the significance of talking circles as a foundational element in social justice movements.

[10:22] Gloria Steinem: "I think this simple act, whether it's a talking circle or two women at a kitchen table or whatever it is, of being able to tell the truth about your feelings and your life experience and be heard and hear someone else's truth is how we understand the collective truth."

She highlights how movements like civil rights and anti-war activism began with personal testimonies, reinforcing that genuine connection and shared experiences drive collective action more effectively than statistics alone.

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3. The Role of Laughter in Liberation

A central theme of the episode is the transformative power of laughter. Gloria articulates how laughter serves as a "proof of freedom", fostering communal bonds and resilience.

[12:00] Gloria Steinem: "Laughter turns out to be the one emotion that can't be compelled. It's a proof of freedom."

Glennon Doyle shares her personal struggle with compulsory laughter in male-dominated spaces, illustrating how authentic laughter contrasts with forced responses intended to placate or conform. The hosts and Gloria explore the duality of laughter—as a genuine expression of joy and a tool for resistance against oppressive dynamics.

[14:28] Glennon Doyle: "It felt like a war. He would talk, and then I would refuse to giggle."
[15:01] Amanda Doyle: "A fake laugh is exactly like a fake orgasm... it's for keeping the outside steady."

This discussion underscores the necessity of authentic emotional expression as a means of maintaining one's integrity and challenging societal expectations.

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4. Intersectionality and Challenging White Feminism

The dialogue addresses the complexities of intersectional feminism, critiquing white feminism for its tendency to prioritize hierarchical power structures and exclude marginalized voices.

[25:03] Gloria Steinem: "If feminism doesn't include all women, it's not feminism. There really is no such thing as white feminism."

Gloria argues that true feminism must embrace diversity and address the intersecting oppressions faced by women of different races, sexual orientations, and socioeconomic backgrounds. The hosts discuss historical and contemporary examples, emphasizing the movement's need to be inclusive and equitable.

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5. Voting with the Patriarchy and Expanding Choice

A significant portion of the conversation explores how many white women inadvertently vote with the patriarchy, often due to economic dependencies or limited awareness of alternative choices.

[26:37] Gloria Steinem: "A large proportion of white women are dependent on the identity and incomes of white men. So they may be voting the interests of their husbands."

Gloria stresses the importance of expanding voting choices and empowering women to recognize their agency in political decisions. The hosts reflect on how personal actions, such as equal caregiving responsibilities, can influence broader societal shifts.

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6. Sustaining Activism and Avoiding Burnout

The discussion turns to the sustainability of activist efforts and strategies to prevent burnout. Gloria underscores the necessity of community and mutual support in maintaining long-term commitment to social justice causes.

[48:42] Gloria Steinem: "We are social creatures. We need each other."

Glennon and Abby share personal anecdotes about navigating criticism and reinforcing the importance of collective resilience. Gloria highlights that being part of a movement provides the emotional sustenance needed to continue combating systemic injustices.

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7. Indigenous Wisdom and Egalitarian Cultures

Gloria emphasizes the wisdom inherent in indigenous cultures, particularly their egalitarian practices, which predate and inform modern democratic institutions.

[44:30] Gloria Steinem: "Before European explorers set foot on this land, there were already cultures that were egalitarian."

She advocates for incorporating indigenous perspectives into educational curricula to foster a deeper understanding of cooperative governance and gender equality. This acknowledgment serves as a foundation for dismantling patriarchal structures and embracing more inclusive societal models.

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8. Reproductive Justice and Bodily Autonomy

The conversation delves into reproductive justice as a cornerstone of gender equality. Gloria explains that control over reproductive rights is fundamental to dismantling patriarchal dominance.

[22:31] Gloria Steinem: "The very definition of patriarchy is controlling women's bodies as the means of reproduction because we happen to have wombs."

She recounts historical contexts, such as the witch trials, to illustrate how controlling women's reproductive capabilities has long been a tool of oppression. Gloria underscores that reproductive autonomy is essential for women to achieve full human potential and equality.

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9. Power and Its Sources

Gloria defines power not as domination but as the capacity to create equality and kindness within various institutions.

[49:21] Gloria Steinem: "But I'd like to have the power to do, you know, to create more equality and kindness in whatever the institution is."

This redefinition shifts the focus from hierarchical power structures to empowering individuals and communities to effect positive change. The hosts explore how everyday actions, such as equitable caregiving and authentic self-expression, contribute to this transformative power.

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10. Legacy and Continued Activism

In the concluding moments, Gloria reflects on her enduring legacy and the vital role of authenticity and community in sustaining the feminist movement. The hosts pay tribute to Gloria's influence on their lives and the broader movement, highlighting the ongoing need for inclusive and joyful activism.

[54:48] Abby Wambach: "So your voice. Giving women a platform gave the 1972 Title IX law traction. That gave me a chance."

Gloria expresses gratitude for the progress made and emphasizes the importance of continuing to create spaces where women can vote for themselves and live authentically.

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Key Takeaways

• Authenticity and Vulnerability: Creating safe spaces for genuine expression fosters collective understanding and strengthens social movements.

• Intersectionality: True feminism must embrace and address the diverse experiences and challenges faced by all women, dismantling exclusive practices like white feminism.

• Power Redefined: Power should be viewed as the ability to create equality and kindness rather than domination, emphasizing collaborative and supportive structures.

• Sustaining Activism: Building strong, supportive communities is essential for preventing burnout and maintaining long-term commitment to social justice causes.

• Role of Laughter: Authentic laughter serves as a powerful tool for resilience and communal bonding, reinforcing freedom and resistance against oppression.

• Reproductive Justice: Control over reproductive rights is fundamental to achieving gender equality and dismantling patriarchal systems.

Notable Quotes

• Gloria Steinem on Talking Circles:
  "[10:22] Gloria Steinem: I think this simple act, whether it's a talking circle or two women at a kitchen table or whatever it is, of being able to tell the truth about your feelings and your life experience and be heard and hear someone else's truth is how we understand the collective truth."

• Gloria Steinem on Laughter:
  "[12:00] Gloria Steinem: Laughter turns out to be the one emotion that can't be compelled. It's a proof of freedom."

• Gloria Steinem on Power:
  "[49:21] Gloria Steinem: But I'd like to have the power to do, you know, to create more equality and kindness in whatever the institution is."

• Gloria Steinem on Feminism's Inclusivity:
  "[25:03] Gloria Steinem: If feminism doesn't include all women, it's not feminism. There really is no such thing as white feminism."

• Gloria Steinem on Reproductive Justice:
  "[22:31] Gloria Steinem: The very definition of patriarchy is controlling women's bodies as the means of reproduction because we happen to have wombs."

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Conclusion

This episode of We Can Do Hard Things offers an enriching exploration of Gloria Steinem's enduring wisdom and the multifaceted nature of the feminist movement. Through personal anecdotes, critical analysis, and heartfelt dialogue, the hosts and Gloria illuminate the pathways to a more inclusive, joyful, and authentic liberation. The conversation serves as both a tribute to Gloria's pioneering efforts and a call to action for continued solidarity and self-expression in the pursuit of equality and justice.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Squad, this is your last call to sign up for the newsletter that we're calling a little treat before the big announcement comes tomorrow. Big announcement? Huge. Including early access information that you do not want to miss. So if you haven't signed up yet, just do it now. Please do not get upset with us when things fill up quickly because they do and then you get sad. So please do it now so you won't be sad tomorrow. Here's how to sign up. Of course, I will never sell giveaway or do whatever people do with emails. Your inbox is safe with me. Go to glennandola.com and you'll see a signup box right at the top of the page. Just pop in your email and you're in. If you're on Instagram, head to my page, click the link in bio and tap Sign up for newsletter. It's the second button. Enter your email and you're all set. Easy peasy. I can't wait to share this big, exciting secret I've been keeping with you on Monday. I will see you in your inbox today on we can do hard things. We are speaking with and mostly listening to Gloria Steinem. Gloria Steinem is Gloria Steinem. She is a writer, lecturer, political activist, feminist organizer, and lifelong listener. She is the author of the Truth will set you Free. But first it will piss you off. My life on the Road Moving Beyond Words, Revolution from within and Outrageous Acts in everyday Rebellions and a founder of New York Magazine, Ms. Magazine, the National Women's Political Caucus, the Ms. Foundation for Women, the Free to Be foundation, and the Women's Media center in the United States. Although she wants us to be linked and not ranked, it's true that she is widely regarded as the iconic leader of the Second Wave feminist movement. She has spent decades traveling in this and other countries as an organizer and a listener. She is particularly interested in the shared origins of sex and race, caste systems, gender roles and child abuse as roots of violence, in nonviolent conflict resolution, in the wisdom of indigenous cultures, and in organizing across boundaries for peace and justice. In 2013, she was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Barack Obama, and in 2019, she received the Freedom Award from the National Civil Rights Museum. She lives in New York City and in the DNA of every woman who is trying to give birth to a movement or to herself. Yes, welcome, Gloria. Thank you for doing so many hard things with such tenacity and wisdom and humor, and most importantly, with the refusal to leave anyone behind.

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, thank you for that introduction. I'm already worrying about can I live up to my Right, right, right, right. But I'm really looking forward to this talk today because I know I'm gonna learn, too.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh my goodness. So we would love to begin where it all began, with Ruth, your mother. You knew your mother as a woman whose life was ruled by her mental illness and by the age of 10, in fact, you were her caretaker. And later on you learned that she was a pioneering journalist with Huge ambitions and a man she loved, both of which she never pursued. In Ruth's Song, which I reread all the time, you said of her, I miss her, but perhaps no more in death than I did in life. Oh, does that line speak to so much? Can you tell us what you meant by that?

[Gloria Steinem]

I think many of us had mothers who could not be fully their own talented, autonomous, independent selves. And that's a source of sorrow for us. And also, in some ways, we're living out the unlived lives of our mothers. I'm a journalist and I'm happy to be a journalist, but I'm sure that it had something to do with the fact that I knew that my mother had worked for the Toledo Blade. And she used to show me how to fold a piece of paper to make a reporter's notebook in your palm before there were reporter's notebooks. I mean, I'm sure that I absorbed some of the love for it from her. And the sorrow is that she should have been able to complete her own life and to continue with what she loved, and she just couldn't.

[Abby Wambach]

Can you tell us about when you asked your mom about why she didn't pursue the love and ambitions of her life?

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, I knew that she had not actually left the Toledo Blade, the big local newspaper in Toledo, until my older sister. She's 10 years older than I am, was about 6. So I realized that she had tried to continue even after she had a child to look out for and even after she was married to my father, a wonderfully kind, but kind of also irresponsible person. But I realized that it had been such a toll on her that she had had what was then termed a nervous breakdown, quote, unquote, and been unable to function. Spent almost a year in a sanatorium. And when she came out, I think her spirit was broken. She felt she couldn't continue as she wished to.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, and I love this part of. I think it's an on the road. When you said, why didn't you continue the ambition, go with that man who you were truly in love with? What did she said? You. Well, then you wouldn't have been born.

[Gloria Steinem]

Yes, it's hard to argue with that.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

But in your mind you did.

[Gloria Steinem]

But I did argue with that. I mean, he did say, but that would have been okay. And indeed I said, but you would have been born instead. But that fate was the same for a lot of women, and indeed it still is. You know, there are a lot of women who still have to Give up their dreams and their occupations in order to take care of children. It's still the case that women care for children more than men do. Even though there's not a star in the East. Children have fathers, too. I mean, fathers should be equal, equally responsible. So it's better because of the civil rights movement, the women's movement, all the great social justice movements, but it's still unequal, very unequal.

[Amanda Doyle]

And you realize that later that what you had when you were young attributed to some personal or individual failure in your mother. You realized that it was actually this structural failure, that it wasn't that she was crazy, but that the system that she was born into was crazy. And you dedicate your life to making sure that women know that they are not broken, but they were born into a system that was intended to break their spirits. Can you talk to us about talking circles and how they change everything in terms of people understanding that they are not crazy, but they're all part of this system that is making them feel that way.

[Gloria Steinem]

I think this simple act, whether it's a talking circle or two women at a kitchen table or whatever it is, of being able to tell the truth about your feelings and your life experience and be heard and hear someone else's truth is how we understand the collective truth. It's possible to understand it from reading statistics and so on, but I think it's much more likely if we hear other people's personal stories that we identify with. So every social justice movement that I'm aware of started out that way. The civil rights movement started in black churches in the south with people testifying about what happened to them. The anti Vietnam War movement started with a few men resisting going off to what was an unjust war in the first place. And there's nothing more basic or radical than telling the truth and listening to the truth from other people.

[Abby Wambach]

In so many photographs of you and your organizing partners, whether it's you and Bella Abzug, Flo Kennedy, Dorothy Pittman Hughes, or Wilma Mankiller, you all seem to be laughing. There's so much joy and laughter. We have to understand how this is possible after so many decades of fighting against this unrelenting bullshit. How were you and are you so full of laughter instead of bitterness?

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, I think we need each other. I'm not sure that if I were isolated, I would be laughing, right? Maybe. But laughter is crucial, you know, because laughter turns out to be the one emotion that can't be compelled. It's a proof of freedom. And in many Native American cultures, there's a God of laughter who is neither male nor female and connects the known world to the unknown world. You can make somebody afraid, obviously. You can even make someone feel they're in love if they're kept isolated and dependent for long enough. But you can't make them laugh. And I just love that as a proof of freedom. And laughing together is such a communal experience. And I think we should beware of churches and temples that keep us from laughing. Wait a minute. What is that about? Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

I can't stop thinking about the laughter as proof of freedom. Because, Gloria, one of the things that makes me so furious about myself is when I giggle like it's compulsory at something a man says that isn't funny. It's like I'm in the middle of this mandatory, scripted. Like it's my job in any public square to reward a man for mediocrity or bullshit. The other evening, I was at dinner with the guy, and it was a work thing, so there was a power differential. And I couldn't say what I wanted to say. I really couldn't in that moment, because there were other people there. But I swore to myself, what I'm not gonna do is laugh. I'm not gonna laugh at any of the things he says and then expects me to laugh. And, Gloria, it felt like a war. He would talk, and then I would refuse to giggle. And then he looked confused and then furious. And then once he said something so arrogant that I actually burst into laughter. And he looked like he wanted to kill me.

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, now, that's very interesting. You've raised a whole other frontier of laughter that I wasn't thinking about. I was thinking of the kind of sincere, irresistible desire to laugh. And you're thinking about compulsory laughter as an expected response to bullshit or, you know, whatever. Right. So thank you for saying that. Now, from now on, I should talk about the resistance to phony laughter, fake laughter.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right? Like, it felt like the bravest thing in the world. I felt like I am a warrior of non laughter and then glory. I think about, like, Christine Blasey Ford when she's talking about the laughter of the men when she testified. And she said, what is indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. There's something about laughter that is so fraught with power and, I guess, proof of freedom.

[Gloria Steinem]

Yes. Well, that's. Yeah, that's a belittling kind of laughter. Yeah. No, I agree.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because when you think about it, yes. The one that can't be compelled is the actual axiomatic response to something where it's just the reflection of your connection and joy and solidarity with that person. You get them. But then the fake laugh that you're talking about. Glennon, I think of a fake laugh is exactly like a fake orgasm, and a fake orgasm is exactly like a fake laugh. Both are intended to placate the outside while slowly killing you inside. Because it's this idea that it isn't for you, it's for keeping the outside steady.

[Glennon Doyle]

Steady. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

We're giving up on our right to have that pleasure and enjoyment and instead placating the moment and the power dynamics that we're in.

[Gloria Steinem]

Right. And it's such a form of internal control because it isn't as if there's anything forcing you, you know, it's an acquiescence internally. So, okay, this is. The impulse not to laugh is just as important as being able to laugh. Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

I realized that with Tish. I was at the grocery store with my daughter and some dude said something that was really dumb and I giggled and Tish looked at me as if I had betrayed the earth and I had.

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, that's great. How old is she?

[Glennon Doyle]

She is now, but she's been fighting the fight since she was about three.

[Gloria Steinem]

No. Well, that's great because that's. Yes. The younger people around us can be great correctives.

[Glennon Doyle]

That look, that look, that look of betrayal. Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

It might be easy for people to think of you as a superhero who happens to be made for conflict. I think of Glennon in this way too. But you talk all the time about how you actually hate conflict. You cry when you are angry.

[Gloria Steinem]

Yes, I do hate conflict. And I guess part of the reason that I became a writer was so I could deal with conflict in a peaceful setting. And the French, who have a phrase for everything, have a phrase. Maudes. It's the words that you think of on the staircase on the way out that you should have said and didn't say. So if you're a writer, you have a place for those words. But whether it's laughing or not laughing or saying what you really it's all about the right to be authentic and not to be so governed by the shoulds of life, what you should do that it takes over your body, your face, your laughter, and even your voice.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I think I was telling my sister when we had read something that you wrote about laughter and I was telling her that the thing that makes me the saddest that my mom does is giggle when she should, at whoever who has said the thing. And the thing that makes me most joyful is when my mom laughs from her belly and it looks ridiculous.

[Amanda Doyle]

She's, like, hyperventilating, snorting.

[Glennon Doyle]

And it's when I see my mom the most free. And it is often when she's with her sisters or her grandkids. And. Yeah. I guess it has to do with bodily autonomy.

[Gloria Steinem]

Yeah. And authenticity. Have you told her that?

[Glennon Doyle]

No, but she'll listen to this. So. Hey, Mom. Love that about Natisha. Great.

[Gloria Steinem]

Hey, Mom, I'm sending you my love, too. And laughter, a laughter of your own. Yes. Perhaps that's. We should do that. We should say that as well as a room of your own.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

A laugh of your own. Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Speaking of bodily autonomy, you say that the root of sexism is controlling reproduction. And many people think of reproductive justice as kind of one slice of the pie. Why is it that you believe that every aspect of liberation is predicated on that?

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, it's the most universal and the most basic. I'm not saying that people who are waits or domestic workers without rights. It's not that that's necessarily immediately connected to reproduction, but the very definition of patriarchy is controlling women's bodies as the means of reproduction because we happen to have wombs. And there were many centuries and cultures before patriarchy. It wasn't always this way. The power to give birth was a reason why women were equal and powerful and not something to be controlled. I remember sitting once with women in the Kalahari Desert, and they were showing me the natural growing herbs that they used for contraception and abortifacients and that they also used to increase fertility. So obviously, ever since there have been human beings, and this is probably true of animals, too, there have been ways of increasing and decreasing fertility according to the food supply or how many children or cubs you already have. I mean, it's always been present.

[Glennon Doyle]

And isn't that part of how the witch trials started? Looking for women who were using herbs to control.

[Gloria Steinem]

Yes, yes. And witches got the reputation for, quote, eating babies, unquote, because a woman would go in to see a witch pregnant and come out unpregnant. That was very sinister. And the witch trials, of course, went on not only in Europe, but here too, in New England.

[Amanda Doyle]

So the PR hasn't changed much.

[Glennon Doyle]

No. I'm dying to ask you about this. So something I'm constantly learning is that one can be a feminist who is white and not be a white feminist, because white feminism is a brand of feminism that seeks more proximity to hierarchical power instead of the destruction of hierarchy altogether. So if patriarchy is a ladder, white feminism identifies up instead of down, and white feminism is just forever abandoning folks. It helps white women kind of sneak in the door.

[Gloria Steinem]

That's interesting, because that's another way of putting it. I would just say if feminism doesn't include all women, it's not feminism. There really is no such thing as white feminism.

[Glennon Doyle]

So what is the kind of quote feminism? So examples Betty friedan in the 60s insisting that feminism at first move on without lesbians or like, right now, one of the examples that I would think of is the terfs insisting that feminism shut the door on trans women. So it seems like it's mostly related to when white women run things. But what is that if it's not feminism? It seems to be there's a taste of that that is tricking people into thinking it's feminism. What is it?

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, I think we're born into some kind of hierarchy. And in order to move up in the hierarchy, we may think we have to imitate a hierarchical mind. So if you're identifying up only then it may be much whiter up there than it should be. But it's still, to me, not feminism, because just in the dictionary, feminism includes all women or it's not feminism.

[Glennon Doyle]

So we have a lot of theories. But why, Gloria, do you believe that so many of us white women are still voting with the patriarchy?

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, for one thing, a large proportion of white women are dependent on the identity and incomes of white men. So they may be voting the interests of their husbands. They may not have information to the contrary. So in some ways, it's amazing that the majority of white women are not voting in the way that they're supposed to. And the ever increasing majority, because it is kind of crucial where your income is coming from and who your neighbors are and what you know. And it's the job of a movement to make another supportive force in the world so that there's more choice.

[Abby Wambach]

Hmm.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's so interesting to me because it just occurred to me that, you know, we're talking about fake laughing at men and fake orgasm. Is it possible that we fake laugh at offensive things for the same reason we fake orgasm? For the same reason we vote with men, because we believe that we somehow have a stake in their happiness, that if they're content, we're treated better, whether it's the grocery store or the bedroom or the poles, that on some level we believe that pleasing them will make our Life easier, keep us safe, safety.

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, it's not just belief if you're entirely dependent on a man's income, but women do, in those situations, also rebel. I mean, I remember meeting a woman after one election who told me she locked her husband in the bathroom for the entire election day because she realized that his vote negated her vote. Wow. So she locked him in the bathroom so he couldn't vote.

[Glennon Doyle]

It takes all approaches, doesn't it? Oh, my gosh. But it's so true what you're saying. It's like a fake vote, almost even. Gloria just said that we need to extend choice, expand choice for voting. Like applying the word choice for voting. Because if you believe your only security is in the fact that if your husband stays in power, do you feel that you have a choice?

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, I mean, that may be a localized, individualized economic truth, but the larger truth is that unless we vote, we don't exist. You know, we don't have a voice in the governance of our county, city, nation, whatever it is.

[Amanda Doyle]

And that's the role of the movement. If it is true that I vote with you and my life is easier or better, then the role of a movement is to create an opportunity to say no. Actually, that is the thing that will make my life better and easier.

[Gloria Steinem]

Right. And our schools should be doing it, too. You know, our civics courses, our American history courses. Why did we fight a civil war over the vote and equal citizenship? Why did people die for it?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, it is interesting. I was reading the poem that Alice Walker wrote about you called she, and there's this one stanza that says, you make activism irresistible because you yourself are irresistible. And that makes me think about what you're saying, that we have to create a movement that looks and feels like what we actually want so that there's another place to go other than these shitty consolation prizes, which are unequal structures.

[Gloria Steinem]

Because we're social animals. You know, there's a reason why solitary confinement is the worst punishment everywhere in the world. So we need each other, and we need to create a supportive place where women can vote for themselves.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, because the pictures of you laughing, it makes me ache. That's what we want. We want to be in powerful places with women who are laughing. Like, that's. I don't know how else to say it other than I feel the yearning come up when I see you doing that with your sisters. And that's the alternative to this other thing.

[Gloria Steinem]

It's good that you say that, because it's probably true that when you say the Word movement. It seems serious and difficult, and so we should include the laughter. Absolutely.

[Abby Wambach]

So I want to ask you about a story I read about the Ask the Turtle.

[Gloria Steinem]

It's kind of a parable. And it happened to me when I was in college and taking geology, which I thought was the easiest of the science requirements. Right. So. So we were on a field trip along the Connecticut river. And while the professor was telling us about the meander curves of the Connecticut river or something, I had wandered up a little dirt road to the embankment of an asphalt road. And there was a turtle there in the soft dirt that was the embankment. And I thought, oh, look at that poor turtle. It's crawled all the way up here from the river and you know, how sad. And it was a big snapping turtle. So I pushed and pulled and tugged and got this turtle back down to put in the river. And just as it swam away in the river, the professor came up behind me and said, you know, that turtle has probably spent at least a month crawling up that road in order to lay its eggs in the mud of the embankment. And I felt terrible, of course. And that became a source of a, I think, still very valid political rule, which is always ask the turtle. Don't act on behalf of other people. Ask first.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's so important because the people with a lived experience are the expert. If you get in a group and you're deciding how to a group of people that is not present, you are not helping those people.

[Glennon Doyle]

You are a nightmare is what you are.

[Gloria Steinem]

You're a nightmare. Well, you have a great impulse. It's just that before you act, you need to ask the people who are most impacted.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. So this makes me think of screwing up in public because I have had lo so many turtle moments. Gloria, even though I've read everything you've written, still had some turtle moments.

[Gloria Steinem]

So we all have turtle moments.

[Glennon Doyle]

A lot of us are afraid to step up and speak out because we know that it's not a matter of if, but when we're gonna fuck up and get our asses handed to us. So I myself have deservedly had my ass handed to me many times. One of the things that makes me so heartened is when I read that you call yourself thin skinned. And this thing that Flo Kennedy said to you blew my mind. And I've been wanting to ask you about it. She once said to you after a public ass kicking, she said, the ass kickings are to keep your ass sensitive. I just, my heart exploded when I read that sentence. But can you explain to us what you believe she meant by that, it serves a purpose.

[Gloria Steinem]

I mean, it's called communication. And when somebody tells us that we could have done something better, it's very valuable. It's not that we failed, it's that we're learning. And she was always a wonderful teacher. She was always very clear about that. When you talk about Flo, I think of her because all the time we were lecturing together there would often be one, you know, dissident male person in the audience who would call out to us, are you lesbians? And Flo always said, are you my alternative? Which made the audience laugh and didn't pay his question the honor of answering it, you know? Right, so good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly.

[Gloria Steinem]

No, Flo was a great example and teacher.

[Glennon Doyle]

I always think about my friend Dr. Yabba Blay, who's an unbelievable speaker, lecturer, teacher, and she always says, if I'm correcting you, it's because I believe I'm not wasting my breath with you. It's an honor to be corrected by me.

[Gloria Steinem]

And it's how we get better. Frequently I think we have to ask and say, please tell me what I'm doing wrong or could do better. Because people, maybe especially female people, are reluctant to say that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you think that sensitivity and thin skinnedness is a plus in this sort of work as opposed to a negative?

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, it's a question of degree, isn't it? Because we do have to go forward into areas where we're not supposed to go. So we have to thicken up for the moment. But in general I think it's a plus. Yes, because it makes us more sensitive to what's going on in the outside world.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm curious, has it gotten easier? Because I'm hoping that when I get to 60s, 70s, 80s, I'm hoping that I just give zero shits, like about negative feedback. Yeah, because you've been through it for so long, does it get easier?

[Gloria Steinem]

I would say yes. But I think what I need to add is it's because there's a movement. I mean we're not meant to be isolated, individual revolutionary pioneers or something. We of course need other human beings. So the learning process becomes a positive one to go forward in a more effective way, not a rejection.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's practical and logistical to me because whenever I get in my turtle situations it's because I've gone rogue. I've gone rogue and I should be unturtled. But when you move with a group of people, any criticism that comes is to the movement because you have not moved alone. So it's less personal.

[Gloria Steinem]

It's true. But I'm worried about your turtle self because I want your turtle self to be set free. I mean, I mean, don't censor your individual turtle self either.

[Abby Wambach]

I also think that when you do get criticized, that is proof of progress, because 50 years ago, they were not even talking about us.

[Gloria Steinem]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

I think that it was in the documentary.

[Glennon Doyle]

Nobody says that.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. It was in the documentary. I think that that's really interesting. And as a soccer player, that's something that we came to understand in a different way. When people started criticizing us, we had to actually learn how to take the criticism because this was new territory. Nobody ever gave a shit before to even criticize us. So it's like, hey, this is progress.

[Gloria Steinem]

Yeah. In my life, in my Toledo high school life, girls did not do sports. Really. I mean, we complained bitterly even about doing gym.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm annoyed we even call it a movement. I just want to sit and laugh with y'all. So you all know I've been using Bokeh for a while now, and I'm into it. Okay. This is like the new toothpaste with lots of different flavors, and it's kind of making my mornings and evenings a little bit more delightful. Bokeh is on a mission to inspire more mindful oral care. Their toothpaste is free from fluoride, parabens, sls and artificial additives. It's powered by nature. It's a clean, safe way to keep your mouth and body happy. And they have delightful and delicious flavors like element. And they also offer cool ones like cocoa, ginger and lemon lavender. And they've got kid friendly flavors like orange cream, watermelon mint, and new strawberry mango. For a limited time, Bokeh is offering listeners 15% off its best selling toothpastes on Amazon and bokeh.com with code Glennon15. That's Glennon15. Make the switch to Boca. For the whole family, St. Patrick's Day.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

So prior to 1975, we have to talk about this because the term sexual harassment did not even exist. Sexual harassment was just life. What I want to know is what injustices are we living through now that we consider just life?

[Gloria Steinem]

Oh, that's fascinating. Well, I would say that a big one, maybe the biggest one, is we're still not recognizing that children, generally speaking, have two parents. Not in all situations, but in many men, can and should be really co parents, really an equal parent. And it's. I think it began to happen a little more during COVID because everybody was at home and men could see, perhaps for the first time on a day long basis what it takes to raise infants and little children. So we'll see. But perhaps that's been helpful. But just as women become whole people by being active outside the home, men become whole people by being active in it. Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hmm. I love Gloria. You said we've begun to raise our daughters more like sons, but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters.

[Gloria Steinem]

Yes, we did. Free to Be youe and Me is a collection of children's stories. It became a book, a record, a television show, which people still see, I believe. And that was for boys as well as girls. I mean, there's a song called William Wants a Doll, you know, which is he feels he shouldn't. And then his grandmother says to him, no, it's very important. And you learn how to take care of it, you know. And the song William Wants A Doll became a kind of anthem.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love that it's framed as men just being wholly human. Not a punishment. It's always framed as like a punishment, but actually it's an invitation to full. The full human experience.

[Gloria Steinem]

It is. I think that's the punishment to all of us for the idea of gender. We're working our way out of it.

[Glennon Doyle]

We're working our way out of it. That's the thing that makes all of this so tricky in talking about gender equality is that gender is not real. It makes it all tricky.

[Amanda Doyle]

Your friendships that have sustained your work and your spirit through these many decades are deeply touching and. And specifically, I really love your co conspirator relationship with Wilma Mankiller, the first female principal chief of the Cherokee Nation. And you two plan to write a book together about the wisdom of original cultures. But she passed before you could write it. We are going to have our dear friend Caitlin Curtis on to talk about that very issue. But. But I wondered, since writing that book together was so important to you, is there a piece of wisdom that you think that your friend would want us most to understand from the indigenous wisdom that was here long before we were?

[Gloria Steinem]

It's hard because the wisdom itself is kind of circular. Each thing depends on the equality of the next or the existence of the next. But I think just the knowledge that before European explorers set foot on this land, there were already cultures that were egalitarian. Even Benjamin Franklin, who was not your least patriarchal of all people. But anyway, he did use the Iroquois Confederacy as a model for the Constitution because there were individual groups, linguistic groups, cooperative groups all over the country. And they came together in a longhouse meeting in which everyone spoke in turn to make decisions. And that was the basis for our Congress and for our departure from what the Europeans had left, which were kings, you know, I mean, they did not leave democracies in which they were experienced. They really experienced them once they got here. So I wish that our courses in government or political science began when people began on this continent. In my experience, they don't usually begin with Native American cultures, and I think it would be helpful if they did.

[Glennon Doyle]

I just wanted to say thank you for fighting so hard to keep lesbians in the women's movement. Thanks for that. What do you see now as most important? Like what are you waking up every day seeing as your first priority in terms of the continued movement?

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, I think, you know, to your first point, I think lesbians were often in the leadership of the women's movement and more advanced in consciousness because they were less likely to have or to need to have male support for one reason or another, whether it was personal or in jobs or. I mean, it's obviously not a universal truth, but kind of relatively speaking. And what we forget. What I forget is that in the beginning of the women's movement, in the early late 60s, early 70s and so on, the women's movement was perceived as a lesbian movement. I remember being called by a friend of mine, an editor I'd worked with for years, who When I became publicly identified with the women's movement, called me up and said, gloria, I didn't know you were a lesbian.

[Glennon Doyle]

You heard it here first, folks. That's fascinating.

[Gloria Steinem]

No, I hope we get over this because the humans and other animals love each other. And there is what you might call same sex sexual behavior in birds and animal species. I mean, hello, there's a lot of sexual behavior that's not only directed at reproduction.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is that why lesbians piss off the patriarchy so much? Because we're having sex that's not based in just reproduction?

[Gloria Steinem]

Yeah. Since we have the one thing that guys don't have, which is a womb, we're supposed to use that womb for patriarchal purposes. And they clearly are not. I'm not either, but it's just slightly less obvious, I guess. I don't know.

[Abby Wambach]

It's interesting because the three of us are activists, and we will continue to be activists through the rest of our lives. I need to know how you've been able to sustain the energy to keep doing this work decade after decade after decade, avoiding burnout. Can you give us some tips?

[Gloria Steinem]

I feel like I'm looking at three of my tips. It's because we are social creatures. We need each other. And so I'm inspired by what you do. And my friends, you know, whether it was Dorothy Pittman Hughes or Flo Kennedy or Robin Morgan or Amy Richards, who's my colleague now, we have each other.

[Amanda Doyle]

Is that what you think power is? I've never heard you define what is power. Real power, not the. The hierarchy and the structures that we exist under in this moment. But what do you think is the source of true power?

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, I don't know if we can say it in that way, one source. But I think of power to not power over. So I don't want the power to dictate to other people because then I will not benefit from their wisdom. But I'd like to have the power to do, you know, to create more equality and kindness in whatever the institution is, you know, whether it's my house, my neighborhood, the city of New York, the government of the country, getting rid of Trump, you know, whatever it is. Right, yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

I've heard you say that the future depends entirely on what each of us does every day, because that movement is only people moving. That feels so hopeful to me because the problem sometimes seems so huge and intractable that how do we know as everyday people where we fit into it and how we are additive to it. For example, you mentioned power dynamics in individual houses. If I am a person working to establish equality in caretaking for children in my home. Is that part of the movement? Am I contributing to the movement for equality in doing that in my individual life?

[Gloria Steinem]

Yes, absolutely. Because you're normalizing women as achievers outside the home and men as caregivers inside the home. That is, both get to do both. And what happens in our families is the determinant of our political views, whether for or against, in a very powerful way. In order to do it, we have to see it. Yeah. So the revolutionary power of the. Of an egalitarian, equally nurturing home is huge.

[Amanda Doyle]

So that's why maybe you're part of the movement. If you're not laughing at offensive things that people say because you're normalizing.

[Gloria Steinem]

Yeah. Whenever you respond as your authentic self and not according to whatever form of the traditional power structure is around you, you're part of the movement.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Because that's a challenge. It's a challenge to not react, but.

[Gloria Steinem]

Also it's making change. I mean, what kids see in the home, if kids see their fathers as equal caregivers, even when they're very little, it's a life changing difference.

[Glennon Doyle]

I read one of your partners said, I think if you don't know how to do it, just close your eyes and imagine you're sharing your home with another woman. How do you divide up the jobs and then do that?

[Gloria Steinem]

No, it's interesting you say that because at the end of lectures with Flo or whatever, we would often with the audience end up having this kind of discussion. Just close your eyes and pretend you're living with another woman. And also the audiences were full of wisdom. I remember kind of worrying about an older woman. We were having a kind of bawdy discussion and I thought, oh, we're shocking her in some way. And finally she got up and she said, well, when my husband leaves his underwear on the floor, I find it quite useful to nail it to the floor.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

So good. I remember you saying that your grandmother was a public feminist and a private isolationist because it is possible to be believing one thing on the outside, but then still recreating. What did you mean by that?

[Gloria Steinem]

My father's mother was a suffragist and she organized women because even after women first had the vote, they were kept from voting because gangs of men and boys hung around the voting place and sexually harassed them and, you know, chase them and so on.

[Glennon Doyle]

So she sounds familiar. Yeah.

[Gloria Steinem]

So she organized women to go and vote in groups, for instance, and she started the first vocational High school in Toledo. She was enormously active. She did cook dinner, I believe, every night. And she had four sons. But she was doing the most that she could do, I think, because she was, of course, still economically dependent on my grandfather.

[Abby Wambach]

I want to end this podcast in a way that I hope to do you honor. I became who I am as a woman, a lesbian, and an athlete because of you and your sisters and all of the work you've done.

[Gloria Steinem]

Oh, that's so moving, because I feel like you're so much beyond we stand.

[Abby Wambach]

On Gloria Steinem's shoulders.

[Gloria Steinem]

I mean, I never got beyond tap dancing in the athletics department.

[Abby Wambach]

So good. But. But your voice.

[Gloria Steinem]

No team sports.

[Glennon Doyle]

Me too.

[Abby Wambach]

Your voice. Giving women a platform gave the 1972 Title IX law traction. That gave me a chance. And I just want to thank you for mothering and sistering me and millions of others into giving birth to ourselves. You have changed the world. You have changed my life, and you have changed the world. Gloria, we love you.

[Gloria Steinem]

Well, no one, no one could ask for a better reward than what you just said. Nobody on Earth. Thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you, Gloria.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my gosh. We did it, everybody.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, y'all, we Can Do Hard Things. We'll see you back here next time this week. Go give birth to your damn self. Bye.

[Gloria Steinem]

Okay, thank you, Gloria.

[Amanda Doyle]

Thank you for your time.

[Gloria Steinem]

So. No, it was fun. Thank you so much. As a gift. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.