Hannah Gadsby: How to Communicate Better (Best Of)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Hannah Gadsby: How to Communicate Better (Best Of)"

Podcast Information:

• Title: We Can Do Hard Things
• Host/Author: Glennon Doyle and Audacy
• Episode: Hannah Gadsby: How to Communicate Better (Best Of)
• Release Date: February 23, 2025

Overview: In this compelling episode of We Can Do Hard Things, host Glennon Doyle engages in a heartfelt and insightful conversation with acclaimed comedian and author Hannah Gadsby. Joined by co-host Abby Wambach and Glennon's sister Amanda Doyle, the discussion delves deep into Hannah's experiences with autism spectrum disorder (ASD), her journey in comedy, and her evolving relationship with her family. The episode offers a profound exploration of neurodiversity, communication challenges, and the transformative power of storytelling.

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1. Introduction to Hannah Gadsby [02:13 - 07:57]

Glennon Doyle warmly welcomes Hannah Gadsby, highlighting her impactful stand-up specials Nanette and Douglas. She emphasizes Hannah's transition from using self-deprecating humor to a more authentic and vulnerable style of comedy, which has garnered international acclaim.

Notable Quote:

Glennon Doyle [02:13]: "Today we are having an absolutely beautiful conversation with the incomparable, brilliant, honest, funny, and absolutely wonderful Hannah Gadsby."

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2. Hannah's Autism Diagnosis and Early Life [08:17 - 16:29]

Hannah shares her personal journey living without a formal diagnosis of autism until the age of 30. She discusses the challenges of navigating a world not designed for neurodivergent individuals, particularly women, and the impact of being mistaken for having other mental health issues like depression and anxiety.

Notable Quotes:

Abby Wambach [03:03]: "Hannah has a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder... 42% of girls are diagnosed with another mental disorder instead of autism."

Hannah Gadsby [10:35]: "It's difficult... I was being so sidelined by it."

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3. Communication Challenges and Social Interactions [16:29 - 26:25]

The conversation delves into how ASD affects Hannah's communication and social interactions. She explains the concept of "masking"—the exhausting effort to mimic neurotypical behaviors—and how it leads to emotional depletion. Hannah highlights the difficulties in understanding unspoken social cues and the internal cognitive load required to navigate everyday interactions.

Notable Quotes:

Hannah Gadsby [16:29]: "There's no subtext for me. It blows my mind when people say things like 'I was just being polite'."

Hannah Gadsby [17:29]: "It felt like an exfoliation of shame."

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4. Impact on Relationships [30:17 - 36:32]

Hannah discusses how her ASD diagnosis has influenced her personal relationships, especially romantic ones. She touches on the struggles of physical intimacy, such as discomfort with touch, and the misconceptions partners may have about her behaviors. The dialogue also explores the overlap between autism and gender ambivalence, shedding light on the unique experiences of neurodivergent individuals within the LGBTQ+ community.

Notable Quotes:

Hannah Gadsby [31:02]: "I struggle to regulate my emotions when I'm under stress... It seemed like I was borderline abusive."

Hannah Gadsby [36:32]: "There's a very large crossover between autism and gender ambivalence."

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5. Transition in Comedy and Storytelling [38:43 - 47:25]

Hannah recounts her evolution from using self-deprecating humor to a more direct and authentic comedic style. She explains how engaging with stereotypes felt restrictive and disconnected from her true self. This shift allowed her to infuse her performances with personal truths about her neurodiversity, leading to groundbreaking work like Nanette.

Notable Quotes:

Hannah Gadsby [43:18]: "I began to feel very disconnected... I stopped being self-deprecating because I just wanted to be autistic."

Hannah Gadsby [47:35]: "I'm doing the craft of narrative, and that is what I do."

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6. Reflections on Family and Coming Out [53:53 - 65:35]

A pivotal moment in the episode revolves around Hannah's relationship with her mother. She shares how her mother's realization of her true self—acknowledging that she had been assuming Hannah was straight—led to a poignant discussion about identity and acceptance. This exchange inspired Hannah's Nanette, emphasizing the complexities of family dynamics when navigating personal identity.

Notable Quotes:

Hannah Gadsby [54:04]: "Our family unit had been collateral damage... that is the shit that ruined my life."

Glennon Doyle [56:50]: "Some families are reacting badly to their children's humanity. Those families are pawns."

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7. Coping Strategies and Personal Growth [60:09 - 65:35]

The hosts and Hannah explore practical strategies for managing sensory sensitivities and emotional responses, such as Hannah's advice on handling sudden startles like sneezes. They also discuss the importance of self-acceptance and the empowerment that comes from understanding one's neurodiversity.

Notable Quotes:

Hannah Gadsby [61:25]: "I can't control my startle, but I can control what happens after the startle."

Glennon Doyle [64:54]: "I want to see my child through their own eyes and their own experiences."

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8. Conclusion and Key Takeaways [65:25 - End]

As the episode wraps up, Hannah Gadsby emphasizes the significance of authentic storytelling and the need for society to move beyond trauma-focused narratives. She advocates for recognizing and valuing neurodiversity, urging listeners to foster empathy and understanding in their personal relationships.

Notable Quotes:

Hannah Gadsby [65:31]: "We need to agree that we don't know what we are and just give people what they need."

Glennon Doyle [65:35]: "Thank you for that."

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Final Thoughts: This episode of We Can Do Hard Things offers an enlightening perspective on autism, particularly as experienced by women. Hannah Gadsby's candid discussion not only raises awareness about the nuances of neurodiversity but also underscores the importance of authentic communication and self-acceptance. Listeners are encouraged to embrace differences, support loved ones navigating similar challenges, and continue the conversation about creating a more inclusive and understanding world.

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Notable Quotes from the Episode:

1. Glennon Doyle [02:13]:

   "Today we are having an absolutely beautiful conversation with the incomparable, brilliant, honest, funny, and absolutely wonderful Hannah Gadsby."

2. Abby Wambach [03:03]:

   "Hannah has a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder... 42% of girls are diagnosed with another mental disorder instead of autism."

3. Hannah Gadsby [17:29]:

   "It felt like an exfoliation of shame."

4. Hannah Gadsby [31:02]:

   "I struggle to regulate my emotions when I'm under stress... It seemed like I was borderline abusive."

5. Hannah Gadsby [43:18]:

   "I began to feel very disconnected... I stopped being self-deprecating because I just wanted to be autistic."

6. Hannah Gadsby [54:04]:

   "Our family unit had been collateral damage... that is the shit that ruined my life."

7. Hannah Gadsby [61:25]:

   "I can't control my startle, but I can control what happens after the startle."

8. Hannah Gadsby [65:31]:

   "We need to agree that we don't know what we are and just give people what they need."

---

Conclusion: Hannah Gadsby's narrative in this episode is a testament to resilience and the ongoing journey toward self-understanding. Her insights provide valuable lessons on empathy, the importance of accurate diagnoses, and the power of genuine communication. We Can Do Hard Things continues to inspire listeners to embrace their challenges and support others in their own struggles.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Hi everybody. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are having an absolutely beautiful conversation with the incomparable brilliant, honest, funny, funny and absolutely wonderful Hannah Gadsby. I have been wanting to speak to Hannah Gadsby for so long. Ever since I laughed and cried and raged my way through Nanette and then after that with Douglas which are her standup specials. Right, her standup Netflix specials. And we talk about all kinds of beautiful things today, telling stor parenting and especially neurodiversity, which I know, sister, you've been wanting to talk about on the pod for so long.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm so thankful that she came on and shared so honestly and quite a lot about. She has a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. And I think it's so important to hear from women about that. Her story is fascinating. She went through really hard times. She was unhoused. She was in terrible situations a lot of her life and was only diagnosed when she was 30. Basically, I think it was a year before Nanette came out. And a lot about her story has to do with living without this knowledge of herself, but just living in kind of an ill fitting world. And it is a place where a lot of girls are. And it's just so important that people learn about this. And the way that girls do not exhibit the same signs of autism that boys do. We live by a male model of autism, so that means they're looking for the same markers. That means when they're ultimately diagnosed, they're getting the same therapies, when in fact the the girl brain with autism looks different than the boy brain with autism, it results in a lot of real damage. 42% of girls are diagnosed with another mental disorder instead of autism when they go to get checked. And boys are diagnosed two years earlier. So there's a lot of girls struggling out there with depression and anxiety and like Hannah, not being diagnosed until they're 30 and in her words, not haven't participated in life up to that point because they've been so sidelined by it. This conversation can help a lot of us to understand ourselves and give us insight into people we love. And importantly, it can help us reframe neurological diversity as differences, not as deficiencies. What Hannah shared about the exhaustive preparations she has to do to navigate everyday things, including this conversation today, was so important. It reminded me of something I read that explained how we all have a social brain, a network made up of multiple regions throughout the brain that help us navigate social interactions. And there's a new line of unpublished research suggesting that in girls and women with autism, they keep their social brain engaged, but every bit of social interaction may be mediated through the prefrontal cortex, which means that whereas many of us are able to deal with social interactions instinctively, for girls and women with autism, processing every social interaction can be the equivalent of doing high grade math. So when she talks about being Exhausted, having to prepare, how depleting it is. It's because every social cue is essentially an equation of long division, which is the labor neurodivergent folks do in masking to be in relationship and community.

[Glennon Doyle]

Masking is mimicking, trying to replicate what other people are doing, but they're not doing it by instinct.

[Abby Wambach]

I just am really thankful that she goes into that detail for us because I think it's really important as empathy for people, understanding the people that we love, that that's the work they're doing every day, the work that we take for granted. Just getting a feeling.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Mm.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And it's so important when talking about neurodiversity to actually be talking to people who are neurodivergent. And with that, we're going to give you Hannah Gadsby. Hannah Gadsby stopped stand up comedy in its tracks with her multi award winning show, Nanette. Its release and subsequent Emmy and Peabody wins took Nanette and Hannah to the world. Hannah's difficult second album, which was also her 11th solo show, was named Douglas, after her dog. Douglas covered Hannah's autism diagnosis, moving beyond the trauma at the center of Nanette and instead letting the world see the view from Hannah's brain, one that sees the world differently, but with breathtaking clarity. The show was an Emmy nominated smash hit and is available throughout the world on Netflix. Hannah's award winning shows are a fixture in festivals across Australia and the uk. Her first book, ten Steps to a Memoir Situation, which I adored, is out now. We're talking today to someone who I think on my list of top five humans guests that I was dying to have on this show was right up there number eight. And that is her. Her name is Hannah freaking Gatsby. I know.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Thank you for the middle name. Yeah, I have one. Got one now.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. Hannah, your new book is so freaking wonderful. I. Abby knows I picked it up and then disappeared from my family for three days because I just thought it was so wonderful I couldn't put it down. Thank you.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Did I mess with your head?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Cool.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, it did. We'll get into that. For sure. It did. I love the whole journey that you take us through with your mom. I love your mom. You love your mom. Everyone who reads your new book is going to love your mom. And when you were a kid, your mom was harassing you so relentlessly about some dirty glasses in your room that eventually you blew up, exploded, started cursing at her and she was happy because she said, I just wanted you to feel. And then later she Said after you got your autism diagnosis, I think you were 30.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Spoiler alert, right? Spoiler alert.

[Glennon Doyle]

She said, hi. I thought there was a lot going on inside you. You are like a tin of baked beans. And my tin opener wouldn't work on you.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

To just give that some context, my mom is a very distinct character and in my, my performance life, I impersonate her. So just to give that how it really was for me, she said this. Oh, yes, I always knew you were. There was a lot going on inside you. You like a tin. Tin of baked beans. And my tin opener was broken. I just couldn't get in. And I said to her, mom, you don't like baked beans? And she said, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah. She's a very funny lady. Very funny lady. But yeah, I was a bit of locked up as a kid. I didn't have great language access, so. And also, you know, the feelings thing was, you know, because I'm not typical. It's frustrating, I think, for neurotypical parents to connect with neurodivergent children, but you get there.

[Glennon Doyle]

So what was that like as a kid growing up as you without a diagnosis?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Well, it's, you know, it's difficult. I think it might be worth like just clearing up what autism is. Great, exactly. You know, because there's a lot of. We'll just call it misinformation and I think. So what it basically is like, if you want to boil it down to it's. It's bare bones minimum, is it's what animates you, what what drives your central nervous system in your neurotypical people. It is sort of what is important. So what drive your behavior is what is important. And where you are in the social tribe and neurodivergent people, it is what's interesting and that can vary. Like this saying is like, you know, what's. You've met one person on the spectrum. You've met one person on the spectrum. The particular place that I am on the spectrum is I have sensory processing disorder. Now people can have sensory processing disorders and not be on the spectrum. That's an important distinction to make. But where I do have that, I am turned all the way up to no filters. I'm very heightened. Some of them cross over a little bit. My taste and smell are kind of sometimes indistinct. And then there are two others and vestibular and proclaim. So I'm hyper aware of my space clutter distresses me and I have the vestibula is balance issue. So I Don't know where my head is in space. So I fall over. I have a lot of accidents. I hurt myself a lot. So it's just like this invisible disability that becomes very visible because I break my leg. I'm currently got a broken leg because I fell but didn't know that I was falling until it's too late. And so I broke my leg. It's fun times, good times. Last year I had a total knee reconstruction. Same thing was falling before, you know, and it was too late. Gravity, gravity was always already my bitch. And so my knee busted. And the year before that I busted my nose open and then it was a broken toe. Like I have, you know, if someone were to dig me up and you know, after I was dead, like hundreds of years of time, they would dig me up and go, wow, I think we found a warrior princess. You know, because my skeletal system is, you know, it's, it's like got marks of war, but really I fell over walking. Yeah. So I'm playing the long game really. So these, these are sort of, you know, not knowing these things that you, you know, I have sensitivities. Was, was kind of a lot of the kid because you see people behave in a way and interact and socialize in a way and you try and do that. And I would get completely overwhelmed or disassociate because I have an oral processing disorder. So I can't tune into noise very well and sort it out in my head. So it's very easy for me to just tune out and listen to people who are speaking English and go, wow, that's a foreign language. So I have to focus really hard, which made learning very difficult. I was very lucky. My mum made all my clothes though. There is a dark side to that. Haberdashery abuse is real. But. So I never had like the tag issues because there was no tags on my clothes. And she always used nice fabric in the, in the texture quality, not necessarily patterns. No child needs to wear harlequin sweaters. And then. So there was a lot about my childhood that protected me from the worst of my asd. I grew up in a really small town and I was part of a large family. So I had a ready made social network. I just fit in. But it was windy there. I grew up on a really small island and on the northwest coast and it's famous for its fresh air. Who knew? I did. I just told you. And so it's really windy and so I was always confused because wind froze sound around and so I was Perpetually confused. As a child, like, you know, I was always given names like, you know, dithery or vague or dopey and, you know, these sorts of things. And I used to confuse people because on one hand, I could be incredibly intelligent and then as dumb as bricks. And the older I got, the more people would read into that, the less adorable I became. And people would see it as willful or manipulative because I could misunderstand what's going on and accidentally hurt people's feelings, but it would be an honest mistake on my behalf. But it would be difficult for people to believe that because, you know, on the next breath, I could be incredibly intelligent. And not knowing and not being able to sort of contextualize all that confusion for me was difficult.

[Glennon Doyle]

You talk about social situations like, social. And you describe it as thinking that everyone's just saying what they mean. Fix this for me. You think everyone's just saying what they mean, and that's how you're operating. But you realize there's an undercurrent of things that people are communicating in ways that you're not picking up. Is that.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah, yeah, there's no subtext for me. Like, it blows my mind when, you know, people are saying, I was just being polite, but really, you know, the person they're being polite to leaves, and they're like, hate them. I'm like, you were so nice to them. How are they supposed to know? I didn't know I was nice to the person I'm supposed to not like, you know. And then, you know, you'd hear people deconstruct conversations, and then they said this thing, and that meant this. And I'm like, did it learn so much, these things? And then, you know, once I was diagnosed, I was like, you know what? I don't actually care. You go talk amongst yourselves. I'm going to rearrange my furniture.

[Glennon Doyle]

So was it was freeing? Was it freeing? Tell me about getting diagnosed. Did it feel like something had been wrong with you that you didn't understand and now it didn't feel wrong anymore? It felt like its own thing.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It felt like a. Like an exfoliation of shame. Wow. Because once you understand that you have asd, you understand that there's not a lot in your control. Like, then it's less about being. You're a bad person for not caring about small talk. And then you understand that it's not how you connect to other people. It's not how you connect to the world. I connect through my passions and my interests and when someone who's neurodivergent wants to connect to the world and to people, it's through those things. It's like what is interesting. And neurotypical people is like what is important. And it's, you know, neurotypical people interact, you know, and connect face to face. You know, it's like direct. Whereas I'm into parallel play. You know, you want to get to know me, you go over there and do what you're doing. I'll be in the same room doing my thing. And haven't we had a great time? Not if they want to talk about their feelings. Foreign.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Well, you said when people come up to you individually to talk about your life or your feelings, you say, no, I do that in bulk on stage.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I'm like the Costco of human interaction. It's just like we're just buying bulk and just a certain line of products, just one of each. And I've never actually been to Costco. That sounds like a nightmare to me.

[Glennon Doyle]

It is.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Is Costco even a thing here?

[Abby Wambach]

It's a nightmare.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. Yeah. It's just. Yeah. So it's a really bad metaphor for me because I hate big shopping places especially. Yeah. Anyway, so. But we'll keep going with it. So it's sort of. I've lost myself, Hannah.

[Glennon Doyle]

My ex husband, when I was married, used to sit down and say, I didn't know it's a whole thing. Used to sit down and say, so I heard. I read that your depression is back. I read it in a magazine and he would try to talk to me about it and I would say, but just read the article again. I wrote about it. I did it in bulk.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. I feel like I kind of get where he's coming from there. It's sort of like maybe he could have seen an advanced copy. This is like, you know, maybe a heads up.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, we've altered that in our marriage. Right. Like before things go to press, you know.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. Can I help you edit your bulk declaration of situation. It is a tricky thing. Like, I think you just have to work out, like with any relationship, I guess you have to just meet people where they're at. When two neurodivergent people communicate, it's fluid. When two neurotypical people talk to each other, it's fluid. It's just when the two meet, it can be really, really awkward. And I've experienced that often. But the thing is, I have learned the ways of the neurotypicals. I have studied these people. I prepare for neurotypical engagement. I'm trained in the art of small talk because I know it's important. The problem is the privilege of neurotypical people is they don't have to learn how to parallel play with. What happened is you pathologize. You're like, you're not communicating correctly, therefore you are less than. You are not doing this right. You are weird. You know, back in the day, they'd burn you at the stake, you know, like, totally think I'm a witch. Like, I think that's what witches were, just neurodivergent women. I'd totally float if you threw me in the river.

[Glennon Doyle]

I.

[Abby Wambach]

That blew my mind because I heard you say, ultimately what I'm in the business of is to demand people be more aware of how and why they think, not what they think. Because that's the reality of autism. You have autism. You have to think about how you think. That's what you do. And neurotypicals don't do that. They just assume the way they think is right. I live with people who have some sprinkling. Sprinkling. It's a veritable cornucopia over here.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah, Carnival.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And that thinking, you know, turning that lens on myself and thinking. No, this is how you're thinking about it. And that is why you're out of sync. Not necessarily there's something wrong or broken about the way they're thinking. And how do you think that people who want to balance that hierarchy as it's set up right now, who want to connect with people who they love, who are neurodivergent. How do we begin to understand about how we think that is building those barriers?

[Hannah Gadsby]

I think a really great place to start is not to take things personally and just move past it to the next thing. It's really difficult, I think, with the parent child relationship, because it's, you know, you don't have. Children don't have the language yet. They're learning the language in order to, you know, then communicate what issues are, what the problem are. You know, what might look like as, you know, a tantrum is probably a sensory overload, and it looks like a small problem. So, you know, a parent might go, well, you know, I'm taking you seriously. But really, you know, come on, this is, you know, like, you don't like that cup? Come on, clam down. But what's happening is perhaps there's something about the sensory part of this process that seems insignificant to a neurotypical but is a war zone for someone on the spectrum. There's an expected bond that's supposed to happen with parents and children. That neurodivergent children are always going to disappoint. And I think one of the first things is, yeah, you got to stop taking that seriously. I mean, you got to take it seriously. Sorry, words are my gift personally. Try and sort of meet people where they're at. And there's always going to be a lag with children because especially if you have difficulty with language, it's going to take a while to sort of get to that place. But in the adult world, it is difficult for women on the spectrum. Men get, you know, there is a certain place on the spectrum that, you know, is reserved for the great white geniuses, and they're allowed to hyper focus on their special interest and be terrible at interpersonal communications. And they're held up, as, you know, the best of men. But it's much more difficult for women because of the expectations in the social network that we're supposed to uphold. And when we fail, that is a failure of character. And it's really difficult to sort of convince people that it's just like, I can't do it any differently. My brain is not wired to do what you want it to do now what? But we sort of get stuck on this. Like, you're weird, you're doing this wrong, you know, and it's. I camouflage and mask a lot. And that's an incredibly exhausting process. Like, so for this podcast, I had to prepare a lot. Like, I had to listen to you, not. It wasn't a chore. Love your podcast. Well done. Keep up the good work. But it. It wasn't. It wasn't. It was really active engagement with it because in order to talk to three people at the same time, I felt, you know, like I had to make sure I understood the way that you speak, the cadence, your pitch, not As a way of familiarizing myself. So when in the moment, hoping that I could hear what you're saying, process it, and then turn it around with reciprocal speech takes a huge amount of effort for me. So what might look like, you know, you know, it's just a casual chat is a marathon for me. And so then that depletes your energy levels. And then once you. I have meltdowns, I shut down. Mostly I just stop communicating. And that's hard for people if they don't want to believe that it's not personal. It's great. It's a good life. Love it.

[Abby Wambach]

How you just shared is. So Is such a gift. I mean, that. That's so important to understand that the work that you put in to showing up in a space, I just feel like that's a. That's a gift for people to understand that. And thank you for doing that for this.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No problems.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hannah, can you talk to us?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Problems I outlined tonight, but no problem. No worries. There's a lot of worry, but no, we're cool. Thanks.

[Glennon Doyle]

How does ASD affect relationships? Like, what? Challenges? And if there are gifts, what are those? Because you're in a relationship now.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Nailing it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Nailing it?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. Before, there was a disconnect of, you know, when I mask, I'm fine. Like, people, like, you're normal. You're a little bit quirky, but you're normal, but you can't maintain that. That's exhausting. And so once you're spending your private time with someone, I begin to melt down. So it will be reactive. I struggle to regulate my emotions when I'm under stress, and I have a lot of trauma, big T's and little T's. So, you know, that also affects your ability to regulate. So, you know, I can. I have been, you know, you know, I can frighten people, you know, when I'm just trying to set devastatingly simple needs. But if those needs aren't met, then I, you know, can be snappy in a way that is not pleasant for other people. And so I was laboring under the attend, you know, the false idea that, you know, that perhaps I was borderline abusive. But what was happening was my boundaries were not being respected, and so I'd be a snappy tom. And they're like, you know, when I'm fine, I'm very easygoing and like, okay, so it just seemed like I was Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. And one of the really interesting ones for me is touch, because it's overwhelming for me. And in a lesbian Relationship. That what, what. How are you supposed to do that? It's all about the touch, isn't it? Ah, touchy feeling. I'm like, ah, do we have to talk about our feelings again? And so, yes, like just a light touch, like that's a universal standard, isn't it? For like, you know, intimacy. It's like just a nice soft touch and I flinch, you know, like because that is. That's a really horrible sensation for me. So. But not knowing that people take that as rejection. Like it's like, oh, you know, you hate. You find me repulsing. Like, no, just that touch. Generally lovely. But it's really hard to communicate that when you don't know. Even when I did know, I struggled for a while because it seems simple. It doesn't seem like much. It's like, you know, if people kept not touching me with a firm touch and just a light touch, I kept flinching. It kept flinching. It builds up and it just doesn't. It's a really easy fix. But the other person has to want to believe that I don't like a light touch. I don't know if I'm answering your question.

[Glennon Doyle]

You are.

[Amanda Doyle]

I have kind of a follow up question if you don't mind.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I love follow up questions, Abby. So thank you.

[Amanda Doyle]

So in terms of like neuro. Typical neurodivergent it would be because I think, I mean I actually since we had our pre call, I'm like, I think I want to get tested because I just feel like we all are somewhere on a spectrum. Right. And I think I've had learning stuff throughout my life that I want to just understand more. But I think it's the role, like what happens is neurotypical people want to like fix this part maybe in you. So like let's go through a process. Hannah, is this like common? Like let's go through a process and work on this touch.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, like exposure therapy?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, like let's. Let's beat this out of you or pray it away. Like what have that. Has that ever happened in your life? And like.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Oh, all the time. And I do it to myself before I was diagnosed too. So like, because I'm a problem, so I have a problem solver's brain. So like this is a problem, I want to fix it. And then so like I experiment with fixing it and this is like this, you know, ends up. I've had so many major depressive episodes, it's. It's almost funny again because it's that. That overwhelm of putting yourself into these sort of situations that are overwhelming and detrimental to your central nervous system and then you just can't cope and then it's like broadcast out. And I will say this Abby, like, you know, do if you feel like there's something that I'm saying that is connecting to you and I've been speaking in very vague and specific terms here and it is a very complicated thing but do get yourself checked out because if you are, it'll be a game changer. And I will also say this. There is a very large cross cross crossover between or autism and gender ambivalence. We'll call it ambivalence. I'm going to call it gender ambivalence. I love it, you know, because you know, left to my own device is like whatever. But people neurotypicals demand that like front on like what are you? But inside of me it's just like, well it's just coming out how it's coming out, isn't it? Like you need to deal with your feelings on this. But there are a lot of non binary folk, trans folk, genderqueer folk on the spectrum. Because I think there's something about the gender binary that does not make sense. It is logical. It is what is important, not what is interesting.

[Amanda Doyle]

Interesting, cool.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Foreign.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Why is it so hard for girls to get diagnosed? What is that about?

[Hannah Gadsby]

We present differently. So the, the, the idea of what autism is, is being based and studied on, you know, young men, white men, if we want to get specific, like the, the, the, the biases that exist in science everywhere, in all, all parts of science, medicine, research, you know, exist in this. So, you know, there are women of color on the spectrum and a lot of them are running around not knowing it because it will be different again. Because women are expected to behave in a certain way. And as a culture, we've been trained to pathologize women who don't behave in the correct way, in the way that it is a character flaw. It is, you're going to hell, you're not doing it right. You know, it is that shaming. And so if a young boy doesn't interact with his peers and he wants to identify every single dinosaur there is, fine, that seems normal in a way. If a girl was to do that, often their peers will identify it as wrong before a parent will observe it and they begin masking. So the masking thing in girls, because you're watching your peers and you're like, they're doing these things. I should do these things. So I think a lot of the time, not so much now, like it's opening up now, but I think women of my generation, that's what it's happening. Like you are, you're masking. And you find people in their 40s having breakdowns all the time. Women on the spectrum, undiagnosed women.

[Abby Wambach]

And it's similar to even our model of heart attacks, how women present very differently than men and so women are dying of heart attacks because their symptoms don't match. Girls typically have often a different presentation than boys. It made sense when you said the exfoliation of shame because girls are kind of in this lost period of masking and not being identified. Then they're going through adolescence, then they're being diagnosed with depression and anxiety as the primary reason for their struggles and oh, that's so hormonal. And then they spend their whole lives thinking their lives aren't working out because of their depression and anxiety and not they're depressed and anxious because they've never been identified and understood for who they are.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah, I always was sort of like to frame it as like I always thought that I was struggling because I was depressed and anxious. But then I realized I am depressed and anxious because I am struggling. And so I never identified that I was struggling, you know, that, that like I didn't understand that I wasn't looking people in the eye and you know, because I would just watch their mouths move and like I wasn't, didn't understand that I couldn't hear properly. I can hear properly. My hearings, as my mum would call 2020, that's sight mum. But I do, I watch people's mouths and that's, that helps me put together what they're saying. And so it's a lot of compensatory techniques that I use to, to get through that. But also it's, it's about how trauma presents in neurodivergent people is not the same. So getting therapy is fraught, particularly if the therapist doesn't know or you don't know, you know, so there's like, let's talk about this thing again. Let's talk about this thing again. And that is so stressful. Like it is so stressful to be front facing to these things because the central nervous system is not cut out for that sort of onslaught. So it's, it's com. Things compound. And a lot of people, women on the spectrum, have complex PTSD because these small traumas are just daily.

[Glennon Doyle]

Can you talk to us about your decision to stop using self deprecating humor about your body or about your sexuality or about your gender, any of it in comedy. How did that come to you and what does it mean to you?

[Hannah Gadsby]

That's a long process. When I first started doing comedy I was quite monosyllabic and you know, I had to learn very, you know, train very hard to modulate my voice and things like that. But you know, I was very deadpan and just used Worked with people's assumption on who I was and then subverted it. But that in, in order to subvert people's assumption, you have to play in that. On that field, you have to play that game. And even if you're trying to subvert it, you're still kicking that ball around, you're still kicking the stereotypes around. You're still engaging with stereotypes. And as I matured as a performer, I got bored with that. That was no longer interesting, even though it was important to an audience. And I began to feel very disconnected. So I, you know, about eight years into my career, I started going this, I don't make sense on stage anymore. And part of that was early on, you know, I do stand up. And then during festivals, I'd work with like a gallery and do comedy art lectures. Now, we worked out, I wanted to do comedy art tours, but turns out I'm not a natural leader. So I'd be going, right, we'll go and look at this painting now. And I'd go over there and I'd stand and everyone's like, oh, go over here. And like, I'm like, no one's following me. So we went quite quickly that I have to. People have to be seated facing me, stuck. And then, oh, you're actually quite interesting. All right. But so I do comedy art lectures. And what I discovered there is I became what's known as a high status comic when I was talking about my special interests, because I'm passionate. I'm talking as, you know, with my autism first, it's like, this is what I'm interested in. And, you know, people love these. They're really popular and I love doing them. And I felt good on stage. And I'm like, this is me being autistic. It's me, like, being funny as a, you know, without masking. And in my comedy, though, when I'm trying to explain myself and go, you know, like, it's very hard for me to do observational humor because, like, I'm not looking at the same things. Everyone's just like, you, you know, you know what it's like. And people like, no, no, what you're speaking of is not familiar. So you have to do a lot of explaining. And then so in that I folded in a lot of masking. And then that becomes confusing as you get older and more mature and you like who you are. You're just like, this is not a true representation of how I see the world or how I think people, you know, like, I'm softening myself I'm, you know, I'm apologizing. I'm like, hey, it's weird that I'm like, this, isn't it? And they're like, yeah, it is. And then eventually I just broke. I said, you know, once, not. It's weird that you don't notice that people are different and that. That very much informed, like, my desire to stop being self deprecating because I just wanted to be autistic. I didn't want. I just wanted to go, hey, I've got some stuff to talk about. And whatever feelings you have about what this is, you need to get over because I've got things to say. And that is part of the reason. The other part of the reason is, come on, like, why particularly women, why do we have to put ourselves down in order to speak in public? It hasn't changed. I still get all the hate mail that you want. Like, take a pic. Like, men have been trained not to like women who speak their mind in public. It's. It's a thing. We're not going to change it soon. We're going to have to grin and bear it. But I may as well grin and bear at being confident.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I just want to talk about that. You do, you do. I just want to talk forever. But we only have 15 minutes. So here's what I want to talk about now.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Fast money, right?

[Glennon Doyle]

This is. What's interesting to me is the journey that you and your mom have taken, but that in terms of the journey you've taken to figure out what comedy is to you. You had a moment with your mom where she was talking about not having regretted anything and you said, is there anything maybe?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah, well, she said this thing. She's like. She's like, I'm really proud. I like impersonating my mum. I'm really proud that I bought my kids up without religion, I really am, because I've. I've raised five children with minds of their own. I'm really proud of that. And I'm like, well done, you, mum. You pat yourself on the back. Good on you. And I was just sort of like, she's having a feeling, like a moment. And I missed it because I think we know why. And so I said, oh, yeah, what. What parenting decisions do you regret, Mum? And there's a laundry list. I thought she'd go, and we talk like that a little bit. Like, I'll say to mom, used to scare the bejesus out of me when I was growing up. She did good. I didn't like it that much like. And it's like, it's, it's funny. Like with being funny, it's quite Australian. I think this horrifies some American audiences when I say that it's like, it's fine. But she wasn't going there, so she was being thoughtful. And then she just said a thing that blew my mind and it was the seed that came to my. Became my show Nanette, where she's like, oh, the. You know, the thing I regret is that I raised you as if you were straight. And like, I just like. Because when you, when you. The coming out story is all about will people accept you. And mom just did all this work and I didn't know she went way back and she went to a place that not many people are at now. She's like pushing 80 and she's like, oh, I shouldn't have assumed you were straight and I wasn't your friend and I should have been. She said, I knew. I'm just committing to Mum's voice. She's like, I wanted you to change because I knew the world wouldn't. And she's right, the world didn't change. But she's like. And I was just sort of like. Because when you, when you're coming out, it's overwhelming. Like you're just ready for the rejection and it is all about you. It has to be all about you. But the telling of our coming out stories, telling of a lot of trauma stories, we are freeze framing on that moment of trauma and we don't then have a lot of public discussions about these moments because we live in a, you know, a punishment society. Like we don't give room for restorative justice, let's call it. And the art history informed that part of it for me. So Mum said this to me, but also because I was thinking a lot about proto Renaissance, I made these connections. And this is the gift of autism. Like you make connections, your brain has more connections going on. And so in art history, I don't know if you know this, but it's a myth where people sort of like, oh, back in the day, not everyone could read. So they learned from paintings and pictures. And that is not correct. They learned through oral storytelling. Like stories would be told, stories are familiar and the art played a purpose of freeze framing the stories into familiar parts of the stories, points of the stories. So, you know, most famous one, I guess is Christianity has been frozen to the crucifixion. Now there is a big story, but that is the freeze frame is on that moment. And that is a big decision because from that freeze frame, you can leverage a lot of shame and guilt because that's like, that's your fault. But there are some great stories in that whole narrative. But that freeze frame and that, you know, in mythology, it's the same thing. It's like a lot of stories are freeze framed at the moment. A woman happens to be nude. That is a strong freeze frame there. So art history has this tendency to freeze frame. And I think generally our storytelling sort of circles trauma and then solves it in a whodunit kind of way. And then we don't have stories that then talk about, hey, I went through trauma, but I'm all right. Like, this doesn't define me. Fuck me up for a bit. Sorry, language. But, you know, like, older women have these stories where they can put into context in their entire life. Like, they're not, you know, and I was just missing those stories in the public sphere. I know so many old ladies and they're just like, yeah, yeah, he's an idiot. They're all idiots, but they're fine. And, you know, I just wanted to put that breath into my own story. It's like, you know, in my comedy, I made a lot of comedy out of the way my mum reacted. And it was a way of, like, paved the way for my own healing. To be able to make fun of it, you need the jokes. But it then, you know, it stops our ability to talk about the evolution on both sides. And we're obsessed with trauma points in our storytelling culture. News is nothing but scattergun trauma porn. We always know what's going wrong, but we never know how stuff resolves. And I think public, you know, displays of resolution are important and missing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Can I read you one quote that you, from your book that you said about your family?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Sure.

[Glennon Doyle]

That, I think is so important.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It'd be weird if I said no.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, it would be weird. But I would. I would honor you.

[Amanda Doyle]

We would respect it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

You're very calm.

[Glennon Doyle]

This is about your mom having a very hard time with you coming out at first. But you said our family unit had been collateral damage. Nothing more than pawn porn for the juvenile and toxic political games being played out well above our heads. That is the shit that ruined my life.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. And that's happening now, right? Right now. To particularly trans kids now, because we're not talking about their humanity, we're talking about whether or not their gender is right. Like, we're talking about whether we can solve gender right now. And that's It's a political point. I see. It's doing my head in. Like, I. It's breaking my heart. It is excruciating to watch. We, as adults are making the same mistakes. The way we speak about these subjects are in terms of, like, I am right, you're wrong. It's just like, can we just. Can we just agree that we don't know what the hell we are and just give people what they need and not pathologize? But this is like, it is happening now as we speak. The trans kids are being politicized. That is exactly what happened to me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Some families are reacting badly to their humanity. And I think your point is so important that those families, those parents, are pawns.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

They have been duped, they have been tricked. They have been preached to by higher powers that have taught them to fear their children.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. So how is it going with your mom now? How does she feel about your new book? Did she read it?

[Hannah Gadsby]

It's all lies. I'm not gonna read it. Like, she. She's a bit scared and. Fair enough. Like, you know, fair enough. It's her story too, and I've got complete control over it. So she's good. She's great. She's. Both my parents are good. I don't know. Like, dad was really sick when I was going through the night of it all. And one of my first, you know, one of my last edits of the book, I think I forgot to tell people that he's fine because it's like he's dying of melanoma. And he got some experimental treatment and turns out it was a good experiment. I mean, who knows, you know? I don't even know what it was. Could be wombat blood, we don't know. But he's fine now. But it was like my. My mum and my dad, a chalk and cheese. And the thing to say that explicitly in the book, and he's just so accepting. He's like, oh, cool. But Mum, like, has a reaction, then she goes away, and then she has a think about it, and then she has another reaction, and then she has to think about it. So that's what's happening now. She's having a think about it, having reactions, having thoughts. That's why we love her.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you feel she called it? Well, you called it in the book. And by the way, you did say your dad was okay. There was one little part I had.

[Hannah Gadsby]

To add that in. They're like, we need to know because there is no resolution there. I'm like, oh, yeah, but he's fine. They are facts.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was a very small sentence, just so you know. But it was.

[Hannah Gadsby]

There wasn't important.

[Abby Wambach]

Or. Or interesting.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't know.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah, it wasn't interesting.

[Glennon Doyle]

Your mom. You called it pinning. Pinning butterflies.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

The freeze frames of people's relationships or lives. Do you feel scared of that now that you have that understanding that telling stories about other people is kind of pinning butterflies? I'm just wondering if you feel scared about your work going forward, Because I do. I feel scared about telling stories about people suddenly.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Look, I think it's important to just tell stories. I think it's important to leave flexibility in the weave. The problem comes when people hold you to things and go, you're not allowed to evolve. That is the receiving of the story. And it's like. But I think there's an enormous amount of healing that goes into the craft of a narrative, and that's what I do. I spend a lot of time working out how to tell stories, and through that, I learn what part of the story is important to me. And, you know, working on stage a lot, my stories evolve sometimes to their detriment. So, you know, my coming out story, for instance, was designed to make people laugh enough, and that's where the issue was, because the punchline was enough. But I think telling stories, I'm not frightened. I have a. I operate on the premise that it's okay to recede into the background and no one remembers who the hell I am, and I just work on the craft, and then everything else will work itself out.

[Glennon Doyle]

And with that, Hannah, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for all of the work that you did.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No problem. I would just like to acknowledge that I don't think I answered many questions directly, but I said a lot of information after you stopped talking.

[Glennon Doyle]

And interesting information and important information.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Time will tell.

[Glennon Doyle]

We won't listen to time regardless. But please also thank Jenny and just again, thank you, Hannah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Absolute pleasure. Keep it real, guys. Keep on trucking.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're the best. Thanks. Thank you.

[Hannah Gadsby]

See ya. Thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, what I want to say for our next straight thing today. It's not really a thing. This is a neck straight idea. Okay. One of the things that I connect so much with Hannah on is that her major sensitivity and her. She has incredible soundaries.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

Sounds are important to her. She has offered me strategies about how when Abby sneezes loudly, I can be startled, because there's no way I can not be startled. I will always be startled. But Hannah described for me a Way that I can decide in my own self what's next after the startle. I don't have to become furious after the startle. I didn't know that, sister. I didn't know that. Like, she told me that when Abby sneezes. Okay, so let's play this out. Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

Here I go.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Sneeze.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. Well, that's not how it sounds.

[Abby Wambach]

But it's not the way it sounds. That's a false representation of the Abby sneeze.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

It's an Olympic gold medal sneeze.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm just being polite here.

[Glennon Doyle]

It is. It's like an alarm has gone off in our home. So let's say I'm doing the dishes or something, and that sneeze happens out of the blue, and I immediately. My entire body reacts. I. My body freaks out.

[Amanda Doyle]

I am going to freeze.

[Glennon Doyle]

Startled.

[Amanda Doyle]

You're going startled. Freeze.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hannah taught me after that, I can just go with it. I'm startled.

[Abby Wambach]

Ooh.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, I'm startled.

[Hannah Gadsby]

O.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, there's an energy of startled. Can just go to. Like, I'm on a roller coaster. Like, I don't have to. Then become utterly furious that this thing has startled me. So, yes.

[Abby Wambach]

It's like transmutation of the energy.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right. It's like I can't control.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Go with it.

[Glennon Doyle]

She said I can't control my startle, but I can control what happens after the startle, and that comes with time. So I'm gonna work on it. Okay. I have no idea why I started to tell that story, but here's the next straight idea. Okay. This is just one quote from Nanette, which daily I think about it, okay. And I just feel like it's very important for all of our pod squatters, many of whom are sensitive human beings. Like, all of them are here. Okay, listen, Hannah Gadsby says, when people say I'm too sensitive, I feel a bit like a nose being lectured by a fart. That's. We're just gonna leave that with you. Okay. Do not let farts tell you that you are too sensitive.

[Amanda Doyle]

Wow.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm so impressed that you just said fart twice.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know I said it. I don't say fart. I don't say fart. But I'm saying fart, fart, fart. Because it's so important to the message.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

I have another thing that I had a moment when she was speaking and when she was talking about how her mom said, I'm so sorry that I raised you straight. And I think that that's something we can think about and be like, oh, that's right. But then she talks about how when she was growing up, right, you know, she'd be playing by herself. She'd say, I don't want to go to that birthday party. I don't wanna. And as a parent, they'd say, but you're sad. You're sad if you don't go to the birthday party. And she's like, I'm not sad. And I think sometimes I. Although I would never raise my kid with the assumption that they're straight and look at them that way, I think that I can very easily raise my kids with the assumption that they're neurotypical.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh.

[Abby Wambach]

So if I see a group of kids playing and my daughter playing separately on her own, I feel intense pain and I project on her loneliness and sadness and separateness. But that's raising her like a straight kid. That's raising her like a neurotypical kid. I just really got that from today's podcast. I want to let my kid be exactly who they are without projecting what the world will see them as. I just want to see them through their own eyes and their own experiences.

[Glennon Doyle]

Amen. That's the next right thing. It's like what Hannah's mom said. I wish I had been your friend.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Meaning, like, I wish I hadn't been a fixer of you. I wish I had just been a friend to you.

[Amanda Doyle]

So beautiful.

[Glennon Doyle]

Y'all all right. And the thing that she, her mom said, I thought the world wasn't going to change, so I thought I would have to change you. It's like we get so scared for our children, and we bring to them the very fear that we're afraid that the world will bring to them. We bring it to them, sister. Thank you for that.

[Amanda Doyle]

So good.

[Glennon Doyle]

We'll see you next week on We Can Do Hard Things.

[Amanda Doyle]

Love you guys.

[Abby Wambach]

Love you.

[Glennon Doyle]

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. Things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there. If you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.