How G’s Surviving Her Baby Leaving

Summary

"How G’s Surviving Her Baby Leaving"

We Can Do Hard Things – September 30, 2025
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle, Catherine, Diana

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Overview

This episode centers around Glennon Doyle (sometimes called “G”) processing the seismic life change of her daughter Tish leaving home for college. Joined by Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle, Catherine, and Diana, the Pod Squad dive deep into the emotional labyrinth of launching a child into adulthood. With humor, vulnerability, and striking self-awareness, the group explores parental grief, shifting family identities, solidarity in caregiving, and the bittersweet beauty of letting go.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shrinking Parental Venn Diagram

• The hosts discuss how the overlap in what’s “shareable” about kids’ lives shrinks as they grow older.
  • Abby: “When they get to a certain age, you realize that they have their own story and they’re living their own life. And the Venn diagram of what is ours to share becomes smaller and smaller and smaller ...” (01:12)
  • Amanda: “That’s too true to say out loud.” (02:19)
  • They compare the public sharing of young children’s stories (which feels universal) to the privacy required as kids mature, noting the shift to protect their evolving identities.

2. The Dorm Room Goodbye: Sanitizing Wipes & Parental Helplessness

• Abby describes the emotional chaos of move-in day, fixating on small acts (like scrubbing the dorm room) that become symbols of parental care.
  • Abby: “We had nothing left but these sanitizing wipes to use to love our children.” (09:10)
• Reflection on seeing other parents doing the same, realizing this was a collective, ritualistic act of love and desperation.
  • Amanda: “It’s like we’re the walking grief. Like, we’re all walking this, like, grief path.” (11:39)

3. The Landslide Moment: Watching Your Child Move Forward

• Glennon is struck by watching Tish walk away under the trees, holding her guitar and bag—a moving symbol of stepping into her life.
  • Diana: “She was just walking into her life. And … the thing that kept playing in my mind was the line from Landslide … ‘I’m afraid of changing, because I’ve built my life around you.’” (13:53)
• The group reflects on how this moment feels like a small rehearsal for the ultimate letting go—facing mortality and the inevitability of parting.
  • Abby: “These moments where you watch your baby walk away and you cannot go with them is like a rehearsal. It’s like a dress rehearsal for the ultimate moment.” (15:57)

4. The Beauty and Terror of Letting Go

• They touch on themes of hope, trust, and agency, praising Tish for her self-awareness and intentional choices (like taking a gap year).
  • Abby: “She always kind of just knows what she needs and then she asks for it and does it regardless of what everyone else is doing.” (23:04)
  • Amanda: “Just the maturity level—like, my body was so much more relaxed than it would have been had she not taken the gap year.” (26:39)

5. Parental Grief is Real—And We Need to Name It

• The group discusses how this transition is both lucky and full of grief, echoing the loss after any major life change.
  • Catherine: “I think it’s odd that we don’t talk about this as the incredible grief that it is. A lucky grief, but a real [one].” (29:39)
• The importance of not “centering” parental feelings during the child’s moment, but also not minimizing the impact on parents.

6. Existential Questions and Empty Nest

• The hosts grapple with the void left behind:
  • Catherine: “When there isn’t something to love, to fixate on, to pour into, to fill, fill, fill … then you’re just left with your own emptiness, and you’ve gotta figure that shit out or take up pickleball or something.” (36:00)
• They also tackle marriage and sibling dynamics—how launching one child echoes through the whole system.

7. Parenting as a Roller Coaster—From Survival to Nostalgia

• Glennon recounts the relentless early years versus the whiplash of children growing up "in a blink."
  • Abby: “It feels like a roller coaster ... now we’re like in that part at the end ... and we’re just ... staring at each other just like, is this it? Did we do it? What do we do now?” (52:31)
• There’s a collective longing to “time travel” for one more day of young childhood, combined with the recognition that you cannot hold onto any moment forever.

8. Closing Moments: Generational Cycles and Letting Kids Go

• The episode closes with a recording from Tish herself, offering reassurance and gratitude, underlining the success of what the family built.
  • Tishy (video message): “Every time I think of you and think of home, I really don’t get sad anymore. Because I’m just reminded what I have to fall back on whenever I need to. And I think that means you did something right or everything right. Who knows?” (59:50)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Sanitizing Wipes as Metaphor:
  “We had nothing left but these sanitizing wipes to use to love our children.”
  — Abby (09:10)
• Landslide Lyric:
  “The thing that kept playing in my mind was the line from Landslide ... ‘I’m afraid of changing, because I’ve built my life around you.’”
  — Diana (13:53)
• The Ache at the Center:
  “There’s, like, one thing that is the ache, and that is the idea that we’re all going to leave each other.”
  — Abby (15:57)
• On Parental Grief:
  “I think it’s odd that we don’t talk about this as the incredible grief that it is. A lucky grief, but a real [one].”
  — Catherine (29:39)
• Letting Go as Parental Success:
  “Where success is putting yourself out of that job and where the thing that is required is the letting go of the thing that you love more than anything.”
  — Abby (59:03)
• Tishy’s Reassurance:
  “Every time I think of you and think of home, I really don’t get sad anymore. Because I just am reminded what I have to fall back on whenever I need to. And I think that means you did something right or everything right.”
  — Tishy (59:50)

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Notable Segment Timestamps

• Sanitizing Wipes & Grieving Parents: 07:01–11:39
• The ‘Landslide’ Moment and Musical Legacy: 13:53–15:15
• Existential Grief and the Universal Loss: 15:57–17:20
• Gap Year Wisdom and Intentional Independence: 24:51–26:41
• Naming Parental Grief & Identity Shift: 29:39–34:51
• Sibling Relationships and Family Dynamics: 41:09–42:56
• Time Travel and the Roller Coaster of Parenting: 50:21–52:49
• Goodbye Rituals & The Kissing Hand: 57:40–58:41
• Surprise Message from Tish: 59:50–60:33

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Episode Tone

• Warm, raw, and compassionate: The hosts invite listeners into their complicated feelings with self-deprecating humor and open-hearted sharing.
• Clever, honest, at times poetic: The use of literary and song references (like “Landslide” and “Good Bones”) add depth while maintaining a conversational, accessible style.
• Solidarity and support: The episode reassures parents navigating big transitions that their feelings are normal and shared.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode is a moving meditation on the pain and beauty of letting your child go. The conversation is layered with humor, grief, wisdom, and mutual support—a blueprint for confronting change and loss while holding onto hope and love. The hosts model honesty in the face of life’s turning points, reminding every listener that, indeed, “we can do hard things.”

Transcript

[Abby]

Foreign. Okay, Pod squad, here we are today. I have been a little bit dreading this episode, to tell you the truth. I keep pushing it off and off and off and saying to the team, why don't we record something else today? But here we are. What we are going to talk about with you today is, well, we just dropped our Tishy off at college and that has brought up lo so many feelings and existential dreads and love and terror and so many big feelings. And so the moment that I knew I wanted to talk to you all about, this is the moment right before we left Tish in her dorm room. And here's the thing. I, when the kids were little, talked about them a lot to you all, to this community. We were in the trenches together of young parenthood. These. We were dripping with children and they were sucking us dry. And the only thing that we could do to survive while we were being mercilessly pecked to death by chickens in our homes was to commiserate together. And that was a beautiful thing. And then the kids got older and I started feeling a real strong sense of protection of them. It's like when they get to a certain age, you realize that they have their own story and they're living their own life. And the Venn diagram of what is ours to share becomes smaller and smaller and smaller the older they get. Until there is no overlap in terms of what is shareable. Right. I mean, that's how I think. That's very true.

[Amanda]

I know, but that's too true to say out loud.

[Catherine]

Yeah, but the reverse of that is unless. Until there's nothing shareable by you, you know, like, then they are the shares of their own story. So it's not like silence. It's like you don't get to be the person anymore. Okay, but that's lonely, right? Because it's not like, oh, as the Venn diagram gets smaller, smaller, things get a ton easier.

[Abby]

It's harder.

[Catherine]

Harder in some ways. But you can't. You can't talk about it because it's more. It feels more intimate and particular. Whereas, like, toddlers are going to toddler and they're all the same, but it suddenly feels like they're specific.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

To their character or struggles or. And you can't talk about it anymore.

[Abby]

That's what it is. It's particular. It's like, nobody's going to be pissed at me when they're 30 because I mentioned that they were teething because that is something that just happens to everybody or not sleeping or crying or Whatever.

[Catherine]

But then just being a general asshole, three year old asshole. Like it's different to be a particular 13 year old asshole than a general 3 year old asshole.

[Abby]

Exactly. And also, just as a side note, it was just our consciousness changed so much. I, you know, when our. When I was writing Mama Starry and blogging, we didn't have a general consciousness about maybe we shouldn't put our babies faces on social media.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Abby]

It felt very like this is what we do, this is how we love, this is how we share our families. Like, and then. Oof. That is one thing that I look at very differently now than I did then. I feel like. And I always wonder if, how, if our kids will ever understand that it really was a different consciousness. Or they're just like, why did you do. Anyway, side note, it's like, why don't.

[Catherine]

You see the pictures of your parents smoking cigarettes at your baby shower? And you're like, really, y'?

[Diana]

All?

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

And they're like, yeah, really?

[Diana]

We weren't so sure about that.

[Abby]

Yes, I think. Exactly. I think of it as how I think about our parents with like diet culture. Like, did you really not know better than saying those things? No, they didn't. Didn't. And.

[Diana]

And we really did not know better.

[Amanda]

I literally had a cigarette in my mouth when I was 4 years old. Oh, they took a picture of me.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

It was not lit.

[Amanda]

I was just like a, you know, a precocious little kid and I just had it in my mouth and like I literally have that picture in my, in my. What is it called?

[Abby]

Well, your parents are glad they didn't have social media.

[Diana]

They would have been in big trouble.

[Abby]

But, but I do think that is a similar vibe. Like they're gonna look at us like, wait, what? So the point of this is that I, many years ago, many myths, six, seven years ago, really stopped talking about them completely, which as you mentioned, Amanda, is kind of this terrible part of raising older kids because the problems do get more complicated and does get harder mentally. It's physically more challenging as kit when they're little and then just so emotionally and mentally challenging and scary. And then you have less of a support system because their stories are theirs and you can't share.

[Amanda]

And anyway, well, they have opinions about your. Your feelings about them. So you know, when they're young, they don't know anything different. And when they're older they're like, I don't think that that's right. And you're like, oh.

[Abby]

And they're usually right. But it's not right.

[Amanda]

Oopsies.

[Catherine]

But.

[Abby]

I'm standing in the dorm room. We've already been through. I mean, when I say months of preparation for this moment, like we have sat together and talked about over and ad nauseam, as you might imagine two lesbian parents do with their daughter, just like, circling the drain of existential dread of this moment and how she wants it handled and what we're. And in true Tish fashion, she has told us how she wants this handle. She has said to us, here's what I want and need. You two are not going to cry in the room. I won't be able to handle it. You're not going to cry in the dorm room. You're going to leave me and you're going to get in your car, and then you're going to cry. And I need you to cry. When you get in the car, I need you to send me a video of you crying because I need to know that you cared enough to cry. But I needed to not. So the orchestration and control of this moment just makes my little al Anon heart swell and break.

[Diana]

Or wisdom. Wisdom of what she needs is a.

[Catherine]

Very thin line between control and wisdom. I think it was very. A lot of foresight, a lot of vulnerability. I need you to be devastated. Just not devastated. Live in my face, but recorded so I can refer to it as often as necessary. I think it's brilliant.

[Abby]

Okay, good.

[Diana]

Good.

[Abby]

Anting. So we're in the room. I have brought with me a can of sanitizing wipes.

[Diana]

Okay.

[Abby]

I am. I come to my senses, right? And I am scrubbing the entire bunk bed with sanitizing wipes as if this is going to save the world. Like the sweat equity. The. The. I'm sweating. I am. I am scrubbing. I need you to know I am not a clean person. Like, I don't do this. I am not a germaphobe. It would be better if I were more like this. So this is out of character.

[Catherine]

Not your typical love language, the scrubbing.

[Abby]

It's not my love language. I am sc.

[Amanda]

It is this day.

[Abby]

And then I have this moment where I just look at the baby. Craig's there. He's working with some kind of little wrench or something. Wrench. A small wrench. He and Abby are wrenching just putting all of their energy and might into.

[Diana]

Raising this sleeping situation a centimeter. It's just none of this matters.

[Amanda]

We were raising her bunk bed a little bit so she could put some stuff under it.

[Abby]

Right? And I'm scrubbing with the sanitizing wipes. And I just realize, because I look to my left through the door at the other room, and there's this mom in there, and she is scrubbing with all of her might. She is scrubbing. Her daughter's looking at her and going, it's clean.

[Diana]

It's clean. And the mother. Is that word relevant to what was happening? That's so relevant.

[Abby]

And my heart just exploded for the parents in that moment, because, y', all, we were. We had nothing left but these sanitizing wipes to use to love our children.

[Diana]

Into the next moment. Like, we were scrubbing. Like it was the one thing we could do in this crazy, scary world that could still be of some service or use to our kids.

[Amanda]

Like, worst case scenario, you will not get sick in the first couple of weeks because this room will be clean.

[Catherine]

Well, but it's also just like you. I can't protect you. I don't know if you're gonna make friends. I don't know if people are gonna like you. I don't know if it's gonna be scary. I don't know if you're gonna get any disorder. I don't know if bad things will. I don't have any defenses against any of them.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Diana]

All I've got is these little sanitizing wipes. And. And all the moms had them. I kept looking. It's like, I think we maybe saw a TikTok about it. Like, I don't know how we all brought these sanitizing wipes.

[Amanda]

We all did.

[Catherine]

The algorithm is like empty nesters in grief.

[Diana]

Have you considered sanitizing wipes?

[Amanda]

They're like, okay, we'll try.

[Diana]

And all of these parents are in the hallways, and I'm walking by, watching them all do it. And I just wanted. I thought so, so much of this community because I actually wanted to be like you guys. Oh, my God, are we okay? Like, I wanted to call all the parents out of the hallway and be like, I know they're bitching at you, and they just can't handle this moment, and we can't handle this moment. And this. All this, like, snark and impatience and cleaning is all just love. It's all just love. And I just want us all to come out of the rooms and huddle up and hug each other. But that would have made Tish so embarrassing.

[Amanda]

It is kind of interesting, though, because.

[Diana]

So I thought I'll just. That's when I, like, stored it all up to talk about it here, because I know so many of Us are just, like, sanitized, wiping our way through parenting because there's so little we can control. And as they get older, there's less and less. And so we just bring our little things. And it's so fruitless and it's so beautiful.

[Amanda]

Yeah. It's funny because, you know, walking through the halls or just even walking around campus, all the parents are just trying to keep it together. And so when you catch one of the eyes, it's like this complete, shared. We know what's happening here. Moment between all of us. And nobody says anything. Everybody just cut. It's like we're the walking grief. Like, we're all walking this, like, grief path. And it's very bizarre. It's a very solemn for half of the community. And then the other half, these freshmen are so excited. It's like this. The dissonance between the two is unbearable.

[Diana]

Yeah. And then it's like. And this is best case scenario. This is the luckiest situation, you know?

[Abby]

So I just felt so much love.

[Diana]

And solidarity for all of us. I think it's all heightened, too, right now, just because of this moment in the country and what we're sending our children into.

[Abby]

And the moment in the scrubbing the.

[Diana]

Rooms reminded me so much of the Good Bones poem.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Abby]

Which maybe we'll. We'll pull up for the end. Maggie Smith. Yeah. Maggie Smith. Yeah. So there was this one moment where right before we walked towards the dorm, I just. We were all carrying all these bags. It was me, Abby, Craig, Tish, Emma Chase was. He had a trip, and Tish was, like, way ahead of us, of course. And she was holding her guitar and her book bag. So she had her backpack on and her guitar. And she was walking through this, like, I don't know, almost like, canopy of trees towards the dorm. And it just stopped my heart because it was like a perfect image of her walking into her life because it was only her back.

[Diana]

And she wasn't looking at me to see if it was okay to keep going. She was not looking back. And she had her guitar, which is, like, half of her personality. And she had her backpack, which is her, like, student self, which is the other half of her personality. And she was just walking into her life. And I took a picture. I texted it to you, Amanda. And I just. The thing that kept playing in my mind was the line from Landslide, that song where it says, I'm afraid of changing because I've built my life around you.

[Abby]

That is just what kept playing in.

[Diana]

My mind over and over again.

[Amanda]

I'M not going to be able to.

[Diana]

Keep it together because it's like. It feels like a landslide, you know? It's like, yeah, Everything that you walked on, that you built, that you arrange your life around, is just. And you have to kind of start over.

[Amanda]

Jesus.

[Abby]

Which is so interesting because the Landslide song that has been a recurring. I wrote about that. That is the song that was on. Playing in the house the moment I.

[Diana]

Found out I was pregnant with Chase.

[Abby]

And I wrote about it in Love Warrior.

[Amanda]

No way.

[Abby]

Yeah, because it kept that. That line about, can I handle the seasons of my life? And then she just says, I don't know.

[Diana]

I love that so much.

[Abby]

Probably not, but it's very. I've been thinking a lot about why it's so visceral and so deep, and it's because all of these moments, I think there's something at the ache. There's something at the heart of. Of all of our pain and fear. There's, like, one thing that is the ache, and that is the idea that we're all going to leave each other.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Abby]

Like, that's it. That is why we start wars and hate each other and get addicted and are miserable. Like, it's this one basic human universal pain, fear, truth, which is we are all going to lose each other. And this. These moments where you watch your baby walk away and you cannot go with them is like a rehearsal. It's like a dress rehearsal for the ultimate moment. That's why it strikes such a incredible nerve, because it's like me watching my baby walk away and knowing I can't go with her and knowing in lots of ways she's on her own now and hoping that I've done what I could do to prepare her, and hoping and hoping and hoping when all that's really left is hope because all your scheming is over, is exactly what that moment when we leave them for real will be. And I think that's why it strikes up everything. It's like, yeah, I don't like. Right.

[Amanda]

Yeah. I don't like it, though. I don't like it. I'm. I was just like, geez, I gotta figure out how to be a person again by myself. And here we are contemplating mortality and death and. Yeah, that's the truest thing. I don't want to know that yet, is what I'm saying. Like, I don't. I'm. I'm just like, whoa, okay. How am I gonna. How am I. I'm gonna start baking. I mean, that's what I'm gonna do.

[Diana]

That's good. There's your sanitizing wipes, Abby.

[Catherine]

You just start baking.

[Abby]

Yeah, I like thinking of it like that because it's dramatic and, and of course, because I am dramatic. And it's, it's heavy, but it's, it's not heavy in the way of like, I think it's beautiful that life gives you these moments where you can kind of experience it and then think, okay, what would I do differently if this were the ultimate moment? What would I have wished I had shifted or done differently? Because, oh my God, what a gift. I get to do that now. Like, it's not over. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to. We can do hard things for free.

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[Abby]

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[Catherine]

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[Abby]

You know, I, I was thinking a lot about some things that I would do differently and it was in I left Tish a letter and in it I was writing about how one of the things that amazes me most about her is her absolute refusal to abandon herself and her absolute trust in herself. She always kind of just knows what she needs and then she asks for it and does it regardless of what everyone else is doing. She's like not super susceptible to peer pressure. And you know, when she was going into preschool. She was 4, and she was like, I'm not ready for this. And it wasn't like a. I don't know.

[Catherine]

This level of stress is just not gonna work. My body is not ready to acclimate to that environment.

[Diana]

Exactly.

[Abby]

She was like, oh, so, see, I.

[Diana]

Just got here, like, four years ago. So it's a fair point. Yeah, I'm not going to that place with those people.

[Abby]

So I don't know how to explain it other than when she made a decision like that.

[Diana]

It just felt rational and important. It was just like, yes, that sounds right. I mean, that's when I started a preschool in my house for our neighborhood, because it was called Dreams Preschool.

[Abby]

It was the absolute best.

[Amanda]

You're the best. That's so sweet.

[Abby]

And then when she. And then one day, she was like, all right, I'm ready. Let's go. It was the next year, and she.

[Catherine]

Was like, I don't like the teacher.

[Abby]

Can we go to the preschool?

[Diana]

She was like, I'm gonna actually need an education, it turns out. So she went, and she never looked back.

[Abby]

And then this year, right after high school, the same thing happened. She was like, actually, I'm not ready to go. I'm not ready to go to college. And so she took a gap year, and it was amazing for her. I mean, it really. I think sometimes when you're just going and going. I feel this energetically for myself, too. When you're, like, on a treadmill that the culture has put you on, and you're just going and going and going, and you're like, you know, onto the next treadmill. Just. That's where the culture told me to go. So onto the next. It. Actually, there's a lot of benefits of just getting off completely and thinking about what you actually want and not just defaulting into the, you know, jet stream of, like, really being intentional about what you want next. I think she went in this year because of that intentional space with much more clear desire and gratitude and excitement.

[Amanda]

And she was older. She went through a lot in the gap year. She missed her friends, and she was experiencing a lot of FOMO from her friends who were posting all about their freshman college experience and going through some of that turmoil and kind of friction inside of her. Honestly, it made her really make the, like. Like, really choose school.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And then. And then just the maturity level. Like, honestly, like, my body was so much more relaxed than it would have been had she had not taken the gap year.

[Abby]

Totally.

[Amanda]

Can you imagine?

[Abby]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amanda]

Like, I felt like, oh, yeah, you.

[Abby]

Do have yourself and you're ready. Yeah.

[Amanda]

You know?

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

I think it's really, really cool that you're talking about this, because I. I.

[Abby]

Feel like there's a.

[Catherine]

Because this is so typical. Such a typical experience. Like many, many families go through this, that there's this kind of conflation of typical with normal or regular. And so I was at a dinner this weekend, and it was John and me and two other couples, and one of them had just dropped their firstborn off of college, and we were like, how did it go? You know, the usual, like, small chat stuff. And they were, like, absolutely awful and traumatic and crushing, and we are in such grief. And they talked all about it, and it was so refreshing and beautiful because I feel like there's this idea. I mean, not dissimilar to when you.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Lose someone in life.

[Catherine]

There's, like, things you're supposed to say. You're supposed to be like, well, you know, we had a beautiful service, and, well, you know, they were sick for a while and, well, you know, like, things that make it palatable. And they were like, it's absolutely not palatable. We go. The things they were describing. All of his friends, they work at the place where we go every week, and. And we keep going there and we keep looking for them, and they're not there. And we have to remind ourselves that they're not there and they're never going to be there in the same way. And, you know, on Friday night, we were waiting for him to get home and tell us about all of the, like, crazy shit they did and hear the stories, and we're not going to get that. And. And this whole, like, ecosystem of the four of us that we have spent 18 years building with their younger sibling will never be that again. It will be different.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Maybe it'll be more beautiful, but it.

[Catherine]

Will never be that. And that's what the landslide is. It's. It's like that thing similar to everything else in our life.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Like, you're building meticulously, with care, and.

[Catherine]

It'S there and it's in front of you, and you see it, and then one minute it is gone and. And irretrievably so. It will never be that thing again. It will be different and lovely if you're lucky. And. But I just think it's odd that we don't talk about this as the incredible grief that it is. A lucky grief, but a real.

[Abby]

Yes, a lucky grief.

[Amanda]

It's just hard, though, because I think, like, the parents, like, the way that I experienced this in my body. Like I kept having to remind myself not to center myself, that this is not my experience. Yes, I am having an experience and this is making a big impact on my life. But in the dorm room, I just remember being like, this is not your moment. This is Tish's moment. And so it's like this, this like magician trick that parents have to do in their mind to not center themselves. And so then when you get into the car, you've held it all together or tried to at least. And then we know what our reality is. But our kids aren't thinking, what is this like for my parents? You know, like.

[Catherine]

Right.

[Diana]

No, they are not.

[Amanda]

They're not worried about us in any way, shape or form. And so it's like this weird thing that we do feel this grief and it is hard and it is life upending and it is confusing and it. And it is, and it is, and it is.

[Abby]

And I think that's why I wanted to do this episode.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Abby]

Because I was like, this isn't for her.

[Catherine]

Right.

[Abby]

But this is a thing for us. It is a thing and we shouldn't have to just stick to the script. And when we're together as parents in this phase, we should be able to talk about. Because it's about the landslide of what you've built, of your identity, of your community. For me, it's very much a landslide of my only. The only place I've ever felt real belonging. I don't go around feeling belonging in groups. This is the only little group I've ever truly felt safe in, relaxed and seen in. And so that is a big loss. But then there's another thing that I think has to do with not just grief for self, but a confusing grief which is just watching your baby enter the complications of adulthood. You know, I've been rereading to the Lighthouse this week and there's this part about where Mrs. Ramsey just looks at her little girl or knows that her little boy and just thinks, feels this internal grief. And the words that come to her mind are, you'll never be this happy again. And I don't think we talk about that enough. Like, why is it that we feel such reluctance or a grief or fear of allowing their world to become bigger and them going out into the world. And I think it's because we know what it's like to be human. Because one of the reasons that it's so adorable and, and feels so cozy, although it's exhausting to have a three or four year old, is that you know, you got them. You got them. And, like, all their little grief. They might be crying for six hours because they can't find their passy, but, like, you know that you can handle that grief.

[Catherine]

Like, but you're creating your own culture.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

You're like, this is our culture, and I am the maker of it. And then you're like, unfortunately, I'm submitting you to that external culture because I can no longer curate your culture.

[Abby]

Yes. And all of the. All of what comes with being a human being on the earth. So I'm watching Tish walk away through the tree canopy with her little backpack. It's not about, you're going to college. It's about you're going to adulthood. Like, you're going to. No matter what, you're going to experience such heartbreak and such loss and such delusion and such joy and such magic. And hopefully it's, you know, the 51% thing is just a little bit better than the. But you do know that that's where they're headed towards every single up and down and pain and beauty that you have walked. And it just makes. I kept thinking, it's not sad. Is not what I'm feeling. I kept saying to Abby, it's just the magnitude. It's not sad. It's just so big.

[Amanda]

I think one thing for me, I don't know, this may not make any sense whatsoever, but when I. When I first got into this family, there was an actual real life thought that I was like, okay, I've. I know that I've got 10 years with these kids. And the next thought is, oh, that's like. That's a pretty good amount of time to not have to worry about thinking about other things. Like, kids are such. They allow you to not have to think about the hot loneliness of yourself. They're like a North Star. They're a good.

[Diana]

Blocker.

[Amanda]

Blocker. They take up a lot of time and space that you don't have to actually fill the void with of yourself. And so when I, you know, Emma's a senior in high school now, and so the big one is coming next year, and I. I keep having to think, well, we should just start doing generational living. I think when they're done with college, they'll just move back with us. A lot of cultures do this.

[Diana]

Thank you.

[Abby]

This is very American that we just think, you got to be out on your own, you're independent, whatever.

[Catherine]

It's also very American that they will all come back and live with you for six years because we don't have any jobs.

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

So good news, bad news.

[Amanda]

Yeah, good news, bad news. But truly I do think that they're a good way to not have to think about maybe our own shit 100%, you know, and so I. That's something that I'm feeling in my body, like. Okay, like maybe that's part of this grief and fear of like what we are personally walking into.

[Abby]

Yeah, about your own life, that is.

[Catherine]

What, when you were saying like the, the ache at the center of everything and that's that we're going to lose everyone, I. In my head I was like, oh, I know what she's gonna say. And it wasn't that. For me, my ache at the very center is just this gaping emptiness which is the same thing, is we're gonna lose everyone. The same thing as like there's nothing there there that will stay. And what is the center and is it. And I think that's why we just like fill, fill, fill. Because like if you keep filling, there will. You'll never have to face the emptiness. And so when I think about like empty nest, I'm like, empty nests. Like the idea that like when it's going. When there isn't something to love to fixate on, to pour into, to fill, fill, fill, fill. Filling them up, filling them up. It's filling them up.

[Abby]

Right.

[Catherine]

And, and, and you of course are fulfilled somewhat too. But like then you're just left with your own emptiness and you've gotta figure that shit out or get take up pickleball or something. I don't know what you do, but like there is. That's a real scary prospect.

[Abby]

Yeah, but, and it's so funny because it's like, I think at the core of things it does come down to what is life, what gives us meaning? Is life worth living. It's all that. Because basically, if we think that the state of being human is just emptiness, that's what makes the walk away so hard. Because it's like, that's what I'm passing on to you. That's what I brought you here for. Like, that can't be it. That just cannot be it. Otherwise none of this is worth it. Because when you're walking, when you're watching your baby walk away, you want to be thinking and knowing in your bones, yes, you're going to have so much pain and yes, you're going to have emptiness and yes you're going to. But also this is worth it. Because what's going to come with that is going to make all of that.

[Diana]

Almost.

[Abby]

Okay.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Yes.

[Catherine]

But I think, like, for my crazy brain, it's like I don't feel. I don't feel the fear of emptiness for them.

[Abby]

Why not?

[Catherine]

Because I feel. And this is how crazy I am. I feel that what I have done and built with them somehow gives them an immunity. Like, that has been my purpose to try to give to them a different way.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

So when they go.

[Catherine]

So goes my purpose, so goes my.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

I am left with not the effort to try to make sure they don't have the whole of emptiness, but just with my own emptiness.

[Abby]

Oh, so you feel like you. When they walk away, they will have like a pail full of water that you have poured into them, but you will be left with no liquid and you have not, like, filled for yourself. So is that what it feels like? Like you will be left with then no nothingness?

[Catherine]

Well, just with like, figuring out both a. Like I have to figure out if.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

My.

[Catherine]

Life is enough is. Is full. Is because it's not a question if they're there. Right. Like, I. I don't ask that question of myself. But then when I think about them.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Not being there, it's not as.

[Catherine]

It's not an easy question to answer.

[Abby]

And it leaves you with all the other questions. Like, I know I have so many friends who honestly really don't like their partners, but it doesn't matter. Almost when you're in the trenches of parenthood, you're so busy. You're so. You're just dividing and conquering. You're so. And I think there's a lot of dread in that, that people are like, oh, my God, now I'm stuck with you for 30 years, more years or without even a mission.

[Catherine]

That's why there's like 40% more breakups. It More divorces right after kids leave for college, because you're not even looking to that. If you're finding your fulfillment over here, you're not even looking over there. And then people look over there and they're like, what the.

[Abby]

And then you look at the siblings, there's that thing. I mean, I can't even get started about that.

[Catherine]

How are Chase and Am doing?

[Abby]

Well, a beautiful thing is that our oldest actually graduated from college last year and came home. And when we talked to him about why he. How long he was going to be home, and he actually came home to help Emma through losing Tish to college because. Which is so beautiful. I can't even. But those two girls, I mean, Abby and I were talking in bed the night before we Left. And we were like, this probably for our youngest is more earth shattering than the divorce because your siblings are. Who is there with you in the trenches no matter what. Like, the divorce happened so early for Emma. But her one constant, her two constants until Chase left says I've always been her siblings. So I don't know. I just know that it's really, really tough.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I'm the youngest of seven and so I experienced it six times where somebody would leave and then a few years later somebody else would leave. And then it came down to the last one. And it's like, it's kind of a weird thing because then you are just like left with your parents.

[Abby]

And who wants that, you know?

[Catherine]

Nobody.

[Diana]

It's just one person.

[Amanda]

Your parents and just one of you. Like, it's just kind of weird.

[Abby]

And all their angst and love is just pointed straight at you like a beam of sun that's gonna burn you into like, oblivion.

[Amanda]

So it's so beautiful that, that our oldest has decided to stay at least for a little while to give Emma a little buffer. You know, she's going in whatever, seven to ten months.

[Catherine]

Oh, God. Jesus, Abby, you didn't say that.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Abby]

And now it's time for our ads.

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[Abby]

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[Amanda]

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[Abby]

It's wild because the first essay that I ever wrote that really went viral and started this whole thing honestly was this essay called Don't Carpe Diem. And it was about now. This has been the versions of this have been written a million times so it won't feel new, but it was, it felt new at the time. It was this like phenomenon that kept happening to me where I would be in a line, probably at some grocery store or something and you know, I'd have the baby in one arm and the toddler like grabbing the lollipops and the five year old begging for the thing and they're all yelling in the line and I want to like just melt into the floor. And inevitably some. Well, I would have described her back then as an older woman. Okay.

[Catherine]

So someone our age, a woman our.

[Amanda]

Age, a middle aged woman who at.

[Diana]

The time I was like, this person.

[Abby]

Is, you know, elderly, would come over to me and like have this soft look on her face. The face did not match the situation, as if there was not carnage around. And her face would get really soft and she would say, oh, honey, it goes by so fast. Enjoy every moment. And I would always think, this one, you want me to enjoy this moment right now? And I would always. And I. And I would get a little annoyed about it because I felt like perhaps you're not reading the room. Like, perhaps. Perhaps what's not needed in this moment is an extra layer of shame that not only should I not be just surviving this moment, but I should actually.

[Diana]

Be cherishing this fucking moment. Like, I just couldn't understand what was being required of me by the older elderly women who were probably 10 years younger than me. Okay.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Abby]

Now.

[Diana]

From where I sit now.

[Abby]

I.

[Diana]

Feel, I feel so jealous of those women in the grocery lines.

[Amanda]

Really?

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

But I.

[Diana]

But I don't want to be them for like a long period of time. And I definitely don't want their kids. Their kids look a mess. What, what I would give for just one.

[Abby]

This is what I think about sometimes.

[Diana]

I don't want more babies ever. I don't want anyone else's babies. I don't want more babies. But I would, if I could have one wish or time travel, I would.

[Abby]

Love to just be like, okay, just.

[Diana]

Give me like one day when they were like 5 and 2 and 0. Like, just like snuggle them. And anyway, so.

[Abby]

I think I feel both ways.

[Diana]

Like, I feel when I see those women in line dripping with their babies, wanting to melt.

[Abby]

I feel I can remember how hard that was.

[Diana]

I would never actually go up to them and say, enjoy every moment. Like, what I would do is maybe be like, can I hold that baby while you look for your change in your purse? You know, like, I might want to step in and help. But I also feel like parenting has.

[Abby]

Been this situation where it feels like a roller coaster. The first, I want to say, like eight years. It's just, you know, when you're on a roller coaster and it's like that first big hill and you're just, it's like you're going up the. And so effing slow like you're never gonna get to the top. And all it's doing is building anticipation and terror.

[Diana]

And that is how early parenting feels like.

[Abby]

It's just, I mean I remember being so exhausted and feeling like looking at Chase on the floor when he was like 10 months and then looking at the clock and it was like 8:30 in the morning. I was like, oh my God, we have 17 more hours. It's been six years since we woke up like that. And then this thing happens. It's like there's a crest. For me, it was like right away when they were 8 or 9. And all I can tell you is now it feels like I blinked, this ride took off and now we're like in that part at the end and Abby and I and Craig are still in our seats like trying to figure out what just happened. And we're just.

[Diana]

Our kids have gotten out of the car and they're just walking away and all we can see is their backs.

[Abby]

And we're just like, wait, what happened? It's like you also have this idea that you're gonna like have enough time.

[Diana]

To like fix some things. You'll be time for edits, right? We're gonna get another pass at this post production. I always have this feeling that I'm just about to figure it out that like I am who I am today. But like I'm about to like nail this and, and for sure I'm gonna nail it before it's over. And then they're walking away and you're like, wait, but I thought there would be more time to like get some things right. And then you're kind of just left with your people on the little cart just staring at each other. I mean Craig and Abby and I just stared at each other just like wide eyed, just like, is this it? Did we do it?

[Abby]

Is.

[Diana]

What do we do now? We're just like in the cart staring at each other, watching them walk away, hoping that it was enough and wondering what the hell we're supposed to do now.

[Amanda]

Yeah, definitely wondering what the hell we're supposed to do now is creeping in. I think that I have, I have a different feeling about it in that I also feel equally as excited as I do sad. I feel equally as excited because my, my hope is that I live so long that I get to know who they be, continue to become.

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And like their adulthoodness and their, and what they like struggle through and what they are trying to like. I'm curious as to like what, what will happen with them. You know, like that is almost equally as exciting as it is to think about like what now we, we are walking away from in a way. And I, I, I understand it's just nostalgia, you know, it's like this idea of how can I replicate, how can I hold on to. How can I like this, the world is ever moving and we're, it doesn't stop and like how can I hold on to a moment and then also make them also hold on to the moment? Because think about us. I don't have any, like I'm, I have like very few memories of my childhood.

[Abby]

Oh, I can't even think about that. Do you know that's why I over send them pictures constantly.

[Diana]

I just wanted to keep front and center all I've done for them.

[Catherine]

Let the record show.

[Amanda]

Can you go through the actual goodbye with Tish and what happened? Like walk through the, the steps. Because I was fine. I know you were until Emma.

[Abby]

Oh God. Emma started crying and holding on to her and that was just, I don't want to tell too much of it because it's hers, but that was really something. Craig was all teary eyed. Tish was crying. You guys hugging just absolutely crushed me. I left her when, when she went to preschool finally.

[Diana]

She, after her first gap year. I was kind of hoping she would like she, because she let me start Dreams Preschool in our basement. So I was kind of hoping she was gonna like let me start Dreams college Dreams Middle school. Here we go. It was real though, you guys. We had like kids from the neighborhood at our preschool.

[Catherine]

It's very real.

[Diana]

It was very, it was a serious school.

[Abby]

Oh God, that just reminds me. So we used to do these crafts every day, you know, and we used to do a lot with glitter. And anyone who's a teacher knows that the glitter is just. Oh my God, the worst. Once you introduce glitter, it's just going to live with you forever. And Tish, I had, I had cleaned out the basement, put her to bed. After the preschool, all the kids went home and I had cleaned out all the trays and dumped the glitter in the toilet. Because that's what you have to do with glitter. You can't just trust me. Preschool teachers know. And at dinner that night, Tish, she was four.

[Diana]

This is if this is not Tish in a nutshell.

[Abby]

She is eating her dinner and she goes, you guys, today I was pooping.

[Amanda]

Oh my God.

[Abby]

And Sprinkles came out of my butt because she thought she pooped.

[Diana]

Looked in the toilet, saw it filled with glitter, and thought, yep, that's about right. Of course, I sprinkles.

[Catherine]

Can't wait to tell them because they haven't believed in my fairy powers.

[Abby]

Not once.

[Catherine]

This should close the case.

[Diana]

I don't think I corrected her. Every little girl should really believe that. They should.

[Abby]

Sprinkles.

[Diana]

I pooped, and sprinkles came out my bottom.

[Catherine]

Yes, I remember that.

[Abby]

That was.

[Diana]

That's what it was. I pooped and sprinkles came out of my bottom. That's what it was.

[Abby]

Yep. I know that because we have it on a mug. Because my dad makes mugs of all.

[Diana]

Of the kids wildest sayings.

[Abby]

So we do have a mug that says, and then sprinkles came out of my bottom. Anyway, the day before she actually went to preschool, we read the book that so many of us read our babies before they go to school, which is called the Kissing Hand, which is, like, about this mama raccoon who sends her baby to school. And then she. Before the baby goes to school, she kisses his hand so that when he misses her, he can put his hand on her, on his cheek and feel her love. So with my letter, gave her another copy of the Kissing Hand. And before she left, before I left.

[Diana]

I just kissed my hand and. Oh, it was a whole thing.

[Amanda]

Oh, I didn't know that. You didn't tell me that you kissed her hand. I had to. I left because when Emma started crying, I had to actually. I said, I love you. I gave her a hug because I was holding it together. And I got in the stairwell, and she lives on the seventh floor. And you weren't allowed to use the elevators. Only the people moving in could use the elevators. And so I was in the. The stairwell shaft and just bawling, like, just crying. And by the time I gave myself seven floors by myself, and as soon as I got down to the bottom floor, because I didn't want Emma to feel.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Like, this is going to be the way that I'm gonna. Like, I didn't want her to feel guilty.

[Catherine]

It'll be real fun at home, y'.

[Abby]

All.

[Amanda]

Yeah. And so I gave myself seven floors to cry it out. And I got downstairs and I ran down because I needed to give myself a little bit more time before you guys could make your way down. So I didn't know how your goodbye really went.

[Abby]

Yeah, that's it, you guys. I don't really have a lot else. I just wanted to I just wanted to just talk about it a little bit out of love for not just our kids, but for each other and, like, what we've did and what. And how hard it is to have.

[Diana]

A job where your entire.

[Abby]

Where success is putting yourself out of.

[Diana]

That job and where the thing that.

[Abby]

Is required is the letting go of the thing that you love more than anything.

[Diana]

It's a freaking hard ask.

[Catherine]

Yeah, well, it's not exactly all there is because we have a little surprise for you and Abby, and that is that we have a little what Video message from Tishy that what that is coming here now that we asked her, said we're gonna do this. This episode and asked her to send whatever she wanted to send for it.

[Tishy]

So this video is filmed by my lovely roommate. And the question is, what's something that I want you guys to know about my experience here so far that maybe I haven't told you? And I want to tell you. And I think that I want you to know that every time I think of you and think of home, I really don't get sad anymore. Because I just am reminded what I have to fall back on whenever I need to. And I know I will need to. And I think that means that you did something right or everything right. Who knows? But I guess we'll find out as I embark on this new chapter. And I love you guys so much.

[Diana]

Okay. Okay. Can we end now?

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Diana]

Okay, bye. Okay, love you. Bye.

[Abby]

We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human forever. Dog is our production partner and you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things show on TikTok.

[Diana]

Sam.