How to be Sexually Confident with Mae Martin (Best Of)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How to be Sexually Confident with Mae Martin (Best Of)"

We Can Do Hard Things Episode featuring Mae Martin
Release Date: February 5, 2025
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Mae Martin, Award-winning Comedian, Actor, Writer, and Producer

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Introduction

In this standout episode of We Can Do Hard Things, host Glennon Doyle welcomes Mae Martin, an acclaimed comedian and creator known for her work on Feel Good. Mae brings her unique perspective on sexuality, gender, addiction, and personal growth, engaging in heartfelt and humorous conversations with Glennon, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle. This episode delves deep into the complexities of modern life, offering insights and laughter as the trio navigates through challenging topics with authenticity and empathy.

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Exploring Sexuality Beyond Labels

Mae Martin opens the discussion by challenging the conventional notions of sexuality, emphasizing that it transcends mere gender preferences.

• Sexuality Is Universal:
  • Mae Martin (02:50): "It's not just queer people that have a sexuality."
  • Glennon Doyle (02:20): "Sexuality is for everybody, not just queer people."

Mae explains that attraction is multifaceted, often rooted in specific traits like pheromones or a sense of humor rather than fixed gender identities.

• Personal Preferences:
  • Mae Martin (04:00): "I love a wink. It's very direct attention of someone going, I'm giving you attention."

The hosts and Mae discuss how societal expectations often silence straight individuals from openly discussing their sexuality, a privilege predominantly afforded to queer communities.

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Upbringing and Open Conversations About Sex

Mae shares her progressive upbringing, where her parents fostered an open and sex-positive environment.

• Parent-Child Conversations:
  • Mae Martin (09:14): "My mom sat me down... she really covered every base."
  • Glennon Doyle (10:27): "This is what we're talking about. It's so clear and open."

Mae recounts receiving comprehensive, age-appropriate education about sex, which demystified the subject and built a foundation of comfort and safety.

• Breaking Stereotypes:
  • Mae Martin (11:02): "When two people love each other and they're naked... an explosion of rainbows cascades across the sky."
  • Glennon Doyle (11:15): "The first orgasm was really fucking let down. It was a letdown."

She humorously reflects on the poetic yet misleading explanations given to her as a child, underscoring the importance of honest communication.

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The Intersection of Gender Identity

Mae discusses her journey with gender identity, transitioning, and the challenges of communicating these changes to her family.

• Transitioning Experience:
  • Mae Martin (15:28): "I just did it at Christmas, and it's been incredible."
  • Mae Martin (17:17): "They can't really wrap their head around pronouns yet, but they're trying."

The conversation highlights the fluidity of gender and the societal resistance to moving beyond binary classifications.

• Cultural Perceptions:
  • Mae Martin (20:40): "If we can get interested in it in a historical and scientific way... how limiting they can be."
  • Glennon Doyle (22:34): "Gender is not real. It's not fucking real."

They explore the tension between understanding gender as a cultural construct versus individual identity, with Mae advocating for a more creative and flexible approach.

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Addiction and Healthy Coping Mechanisms

Mae candidly shares her struggles with addiction during her teenage years and her ongoing efforts to maintain a balanced life.

• Personal Experience with Addiction:
  • Mae Martin (36:41): "I have this little shrimp in the back of my head that's this... it devours everything else."
  • Mae Martin (38:08): "I'm just trying to keep that shrimp asleep."

Mae emphasizes that addiction extends beyond substances, affecting various aspects of life, including relationships and behaviors.

• Healthy Outlets:
  • Mae Martin (38:35): "I do a lot of escape rooms... it's psychotic."
  • Mae Martin (39:22): "Try Wet Head."

She advocates for adrenaline-inducing activities like escape rooms and playing games like "Wet Head" as healthier alternatives to self-medication.

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Redefining Relationships and Monogamy

The discussion shifts to relationships, where Mae challenges the traditional notions of monogamy and advocates for communication and individuality.

• Monogamy Perspectives:
  • Mae Martin (29:28): "If you're miserable, you know, or stuck, then there's other options."
  • Mae Martin (32:31): "I'm trying to not let yourself get to that place."

Mae highlights the importance of maintaining individual identities within relationships and keeping communication lines open to accommodate evolving needs.

• Relationship Dynamics:
  • Mae Martin (32:57): "I have a fear of codependency comes from a fear of being abandoned."
  • Mae Martin (33:24): "Are we just the sum of our coping mechanisms?"

She and the hosts explore how past traumas and fears influence current relationship behaviors, advocating for self-awareness and mutual support.

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Creative Expression and Personal Growth

Mae discusses the role of creativity in personal development and challenges societal constructs to foster a more authentic self.

• Breaking Social Constructs:
  • Mae Martin (30:46): "The creativity seems at the core of all of this..."
  • Mae Martin (34:02): "I'm trying to cheer up my mom probably."

By questioning rigid societal norms, Mae emphasizes the liberation and creativity that come from embracing one's true self.

• Personal Projects:
  • Mae Martin (50:44): "I'm about to record a new standup special, a new Netflix special..."
  • Mae Martin (54:07): "I'm trying not to do things out of habit."

Mae shares her ongoing projects, including writing a new Netflix show and working on films, all while striving to break free from habitual behaviors.

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Relocating to LA and Future Endeavors

Mae reflects on her move from London to Los Angeles, embracing new opportunities and friendships.

• Adapting to Change:
  • Mae Martin (49:20): "I moved to LA in May. I've been in London for 12 years, and that was a big change."
  • Mae Martin (53:00): "I'm trying to manifest my dream friend group."

Mae discusses the challenges and excitement of settling into a new city, highlighting her desire to build meaningful connections and continue her creative pursuits.

• Upcoming Projects:
  • Mae Martin (50:44): "Recording a new standup special, a new Netflix special..."
  • Mae Martin (51:18): "Writing a new Netflix show, and then two movies I'm writing."

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Humorous Anecdotes and Light Moments

The episode is punctuated with light-hearted stories and comedic exchanges, showcasing Mae's humor and the hosts' camaraderie.

• Toothbrush Incident:
  • Mae Martin (48:26): "We were getting ready with Elliot's hotel and that's one toothbrush."
  • Glennon Doyle (48:48): "That's so weird for queer people that it's..."

Mae recounts a humorous incident involving famed actor Elliot Page, illustrating the often awkward interactions that arise from public perception and speculation.

• Fashion Talk:
  • Glennon Doyle (52:19): "It looks confident."
  • Mae Martin (53:08): "It looks relaxed, confident."

The group engages in a playful discussion about fashion choices, adding levity to the deep conversations.

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Parenting Insights and Empathy

Abby Wambach shares her insights on parenting, emphasizing the importance of empathy and avoiding the projection of personal fears onto children.

• Fear of Being a Poor Parent:
  • Abby Wambach (42:58): "I have a fear inside of me of being a poor parent."
  • Mae Martin (44:37): "If you change the language in your head..."

Abby discusses the psychological challenges of parenting, such as combating abandonment issues and authoritarian tendencies inherited from her upbringing.

• Effective Strategies:
  • Abby Wambach (44:51): "You are living in your own house."
  • Mae Martin (45:09): "Look at your kid as a human instead of a referendum on you."

They advocate for viewing children as independent individuals, fostering environments where kids feel safe and supported without becoming reflections of their parents' insecurities.

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Conclusion: Embracing Hardships with Courage and Creativity

The episode wraps up with Mae Martin reflecting on her personal journey and the collective encouragement from the hosts to embrace life's challenges with honesty and creativity.

• Final Takeaways:
  • Mae Martin (55:34): "There's so much for joy with it."
  • Glennon Doyle (58:35): "Your responsibility this week is to figure out three things that are your sexuality."

Mae and the hosts reinforce the podcast's core message: facing hard things head-on allows for growth, connection, and a freer, braver existence.

• Closing Message:
  • Glennon Doyle (58:37): "We love you. When things get hard this week, don't forget, we can do hard things."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Mae Martin (02:50): "It's not just queer people that have a sexuality."
• Glennon Doyle (10:27): "This is what we're talking about. It's so clear and open."
• Mae Martin (15:28): "I just did it at Christmas, and it's been incredible."
• Mae Martin (36:41): "I have this little shrimp in the back of my head that's this... it devours everything else."
• Mae Martin (29:28): "If you're miserable, you know, or stuck, then there's other options."
• Mae Martin (54:07): "I'm trying not to do things out of habit."

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Key Takeaways

• Sexuality and Gender are Fluid: Mae Martin advocates for viewing sexuality and gender as broad spectrums rather than fixed categories, encouraging open conversations beyond traditional labels.

• Honest Upbringing Matters: Transparent discussions about sex and sexuality during upbringing can foster comfort and safety in exploring one's identity.

• Addiction is Multifaceted: Understanding addiction extends beyond substances to behaviors and relationships, emphasizing the need for healthy coping mechanisms.

• Redefining Relationships: Challenging traditional monogamy requires communication, individuality, and continuous negotiation within relationships.

• Embrace Creativity and Change: Questioning societal norms fuels personal growth and creative expression, allowing individuals to live authentically.

• Empathetic Parenting: Effective parenting involves seeing children as independent beings, avoiding the projection of personal fears, and fostering supportive environments.

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Mae Martin's candid and insightful conversation on this episode of We Can Do Hard Things offers listeners a blend of humor, vulnerability, and wisdom, inspiring them to navigate life's complexities with honesty and courage.

Transcript

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[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, everybody, thanks for coming back to weekend do Hard Things. We're gonna jump right in because we're very excited about the person who is with us today. Mae Martin is an award winning comedian, actor, writer and producer who can be seen starring in Feel Good, which we freaking loved. Which they also create and co wrote. May is currently in development with Programmed for Netflix and stars in season two of the Flight Attendant so Cool on hbo. Max May Martin's guide to series about sexuality and addiction are available to listen to on BBC Sounds. May is also the author of Can Everyone Please Calm Down? A Guide to 21st Century Sexuality.

[Abby Wambach]

So good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Which our family has been going through like a hilarious family class for the last month. Welcome, Mae. Thanks for coming on. We can do hard things.

[Mae Martin]

Thanks for having me. It's so nice to meet you all.

[Glennon Doyle]

This is my wife Abby. This is my sister Amanda. And you all know this is me. So we have so much to ask you about. But we want to start with sexuality because that's just an easy subject. We can just get out of the way real quick.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. Just a light, you know, easy, breezy.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And also just because we enjoyed your book so much, let's start by talking about why we should talk about sexuality. Because I loved your point, which is really sexuality is for everybody, not just queer people. And the poor straight people never get to talk about their sexuality because it is always seen as something that is just for queer people. But you say in the book, which I love, that gender preferences are kind of the least important part of sexuality. There's a lot of other parts.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah, that's. That's been my experience and definitely even. Yeah. Regardless of how you identify, you're rarely Attracted to an entire gender. Right. It's to do with pheromones or the way people laugh. I have, like, very specific criteria. Yeah. I think people often forget that. Yeah. It's not just queer people that have a sexuality.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

So some of the examples, the token. The token hetero on this pod, I will say. I will affirm that. That it didn't occur to me. We even did one on sexuality, and I was like, oh, okay, I'll just listen to that one. I don't have.

[Mae Martin]

Yes, I know. Yeah. That's insane, right? Yeah. I think it's because queer people are asked to communicate about it a lot more and to sort of defend it and explain it a lot more. So it feels like a much bigger part of our identity, when really it should be just one small part, you know? Or it should be the same size as your part.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. So this is what we're talking about. Okay. These are some examples of May's sexuality. Okay. As of a few years ago. Right.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

May really loves winkers. Okay.

[Mae Martin]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

W I N K E R S. May loves people who wink at them incessantly or something. Also die strategically.

[Amanda Doyle]

Probably not incessantly. I would.

[Mae Martin]

Incessantly. I'd call an ambulance for them. But, yeah, I love it. I think it's the confidence when someone. I know it's kind of old school, but a wink is maybe I just like attention. And so it's very direct attention of someone going, I'm giving you attention. And I. And I love. Yeah, I love a wink. I can't do it. Maybe that's part of it, too. No, I'm a terrible winker. But like a subtle, quick wink. Whoa. It's like a bullet.

[Abby Wambach]

If the wig bullet.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

The wing capping with, like, two guns.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like fingers, like pointer fingers.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's a bro wink.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. That's like Ace Venture. I don't think I can get on board with that.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you also said that you. Your sexuality is people who order you drinks without asking you what you want. And then also people who drive while you're the passenger. So I'm noticing some kind of, like, you want someone else to be the boss of the situation, or am I over generalizing here?

[Mae Martin]

Yeah, I think that it's evolved slightly, the drink thing, because once I put that in print now when I'm out, people send me drinks, and I'm scared of what's in them. I'm like, this is not safe. I don't know. I shouldn't have said this But I guess it's all confidence for me. Yeah. Being in the passenger seat when someone's driving. It's hot to me. Yeah. A car is a powerful vehicle. And being like, I guess I'm going where you're taking me. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Interesting. What about you, too? Because I gave them homework that they were going to have to figure out what their sexuality was.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Mae Martin]

Oh, great, sister, Go.

[Amanda Doyle]

I think. I think I might have the same sexuality as May.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Mae Martin]

Really?

[Amanda Doyle]

Which is fascinating because my things are bodily identifying you in a group, like, with confidence, with some gesture that suggests that you know exactly what's gonna happen.

[Mae Martin]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

So. So things like just staring at you right in the eye just a little too long.

[Mae Martin]

Eye contact. That is electric. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

And the, like, things that might be like, oh, God, other people are. See, oh. Oh, this is happening. You are. You are foreshadowing something right now. Or like, this happened to a friend of mine recently. She was at a party, and she was in a group talking to other people in the group, and this gentleman came over, took her hand, put her drink down on the table, and just took her to the dance floor.

[Mae Martin]

Whoa.

[Amanda Doyle]

And I was like, that is my sexuality. Like that. Thank you. And bodily awareness of not only themselves, but you. So, like, if someone's walking past, like, putting their hand on your back, I hate that kind of being aware. Like, I mean, I don't know. It's something about being aware of your. And aware.

[Mae Martin]

But what's weird is, like, all of these things become awful if the wrong person does. Right. Like, that is so repulsive. If some random creep is doing that. But, yeah, if it's someone that. There's a vibe.

[Abby Wambach]

I had a few. Someone who can bring a joke full circle and land it, like, inside a conversation where we've been talking for 10 minutes. And then the one person who can just bring it home and tie up. That's a thing that Glennon does. And then I'll say this one. Someone who is up for an adventure. Like, if I were to say, oh, I'm sorry. Hey, let's go do this X. And they're like, yes. And also we should also do Y. And I'm like, yes. Somebody who wants to bring their yes. Game and also add to it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Huh? Okay.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hmm. That's cool. I had a hard time with this one.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Really hard time. Because, you know, I've just gotten a sexuality in the last few years.

[Abby Wambach]

I would beg to differ, but. Yeah, you just.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think it's slightly true. Like I think I shut it down for so long, you started acting on it. I was scared of what was there. But I will tell you that one of the things I have noticed throughout my entire life is that when anyone approached me that was non binary looking. What I assume, thank God, is my sexuality. All I can tell you is that if my heart was a soldier, it was like suddenly at attention.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is that sexuality?

[Mae Martin]

You know, there's certain people who, when they're around, it's like a director has said action and suddenly you're in the room and you're. It's those people and they. And you're trying to be the best version of yourself. And I love that feeling.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Okay, so may I just need to talk about your parents for a minute and how they talk to you about sex? Because we actually have a lot of parents that listen to this pod and I think that your parents did such a freaking amazing job of the talk.

[Mae Martin]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Which really should be an ongoing conversation forever with a family. But first of all, didn't your mom sit you down with hand drawn diagrams of sex?

[Mae Martin]

Yeah, if for when I have kids, I don't know that I would do it exactly the way they did it. But yeah, I was really young and I think I, I had a lot of questions already probably because my, my parents had shown me the movie Rocky Horror Picture show when I was very young because it was like a family favorite. And then yeah, my mom sat me down, I think I was about 5 or 6, and she had diagrams and she just in that conversation said, this is how a man and a woman have sex. And a man and a man and a woman and a woman and like it. She really covered every base. And she told me a lot in that conversation. She told me there's no Santa Claus in the same conversation. That was a lot to take in. And she just sort of demystified all of life in one sitting. But she was very sex positive always and described it as extremely pleasurable and tried to explain orgasms and stuff. I mean, it was maybe too much, but I mean, I couldn't really understand it at that age. But I just knew it wasn't scary. And I also. They never assumed that I was straight. Me or my brother, who is ostensibly straight. I guess they always said, do you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend or a. You know what I mean? It was just because it is crazy that we just assume it is.

[Glennon Doyle]

You know, even the pictures, even the saying, this is sex between a woman and a woman. That is so brilliant. Also, if you need a cheat sheet, you could explain orgasms the way that May's mother did, which is this. When two. Okay, just. I want you to imagine a mother saying this to six year old May. Okay. When two people love each other and they're naked and having sex, they feel very happy. And then they feel increasingly happy and finally they reach a moment of extreme happiness and an explosion of rainbows cascades across the sky.

[Mae Martin]

So poetic and so misleading. Yes. I mean, like. Yeah, I was really, really disappointed when it final finally happened. No rainbows.

[Glennon Doyle]

The only person for whom the first orgasm was really fucking let down. It was a letdown.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. Have I done it wrong?

[Glennon Doyle]

Can we talk about the fact that you never had to come out? Because this is something we talk about all the time, which is. I don't know if people who don't have to come out even know why it's so infuriating to have to come out. Because it's sexualizing yourself in front of people over and over again, which straight people never have to do. Straight people don't just sit down with their parents and say, hello, I'd like to announce the fact that I'm a sexual being and have sexual feelings towards people.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. It's insane. Yeah. I mean it's. There's no other preference where you have to declare it and then. And then stick with you. Like when you're a teenager, if you were like, what kind of music do you like? And then you have to say it and never change it. And. Yeah, yeah. I'm just. I'm lucky. I think we had other issues, me and my parents for sure. But just in this area, they really, they really did a great job at giving me this armor against the rest of the world, kind of. And, you know, then I encountered all of that weirdness when I was not at home and was like, oh, why is this a thing? But I remember renting the movie Gia.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, I love that movie.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. With Angelina Jolie. And there's a sex scene in it. And. But I just was. I just didn't know to be ashamed. And I didn't even really know what it meant, but I was like, God, guys, I just love this movie so much. And I just kept talking about it to my parents and being like, isn't this a beautiful scene? And they were like, yeah, okay. Yeah. And I think that was all. And then I always brought home boys and girls and. Yeah, I mean, I think I had a pretty voracious sexual appetite. So I don't know if that was A. A byproduct of how they raised me, but probably Gia. Probably Gia.

[Glennon Doyle]

I actually really remember being very attached to that movie.

[Amanda Doyle]

Have you seen it?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I have seen. Makes sense.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's all coming together now. Yeah. We talked about this one time when you were explaining to a friend, I think you were saying at the time that you were going to date a boy, you were dating a boy, and your friend got upset in like a very confused way because your friend was used to seeing you date women. And so he looked at you strangely and said, I can't imagine you having sex with a dude. And you said, which made us so happy. Please refrain from imagining me having sex with anyone.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's so weird for queer people that it's. Every conversation is the other person imagining you having sex with someone. Yeah.

[Mae Martin]

And also besides that, it's like, really, you can't imagine it? Like, I can imagine anything I want at any time.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Mae Martin]

That's right. How that's sad for your imagination.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right. Early on in my coming out story, I felt like, because it was, you know, 20, 20 years ago, I felt like I was the one that was teaching everybody about gayness. And so all of the questions would come and I felt like it was my unfortunate duty to have to educate. And, you know, quite frankly, a lot of my straight dude friends were asking me a lot of important questions for their sexual wives.

[Mae Martin]

That's not good.

[Abby Wambach]

And I hated it. But I also felt like it was a service that I had to do for some reason. It was brutal.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah, that's how I feel a little bit about. About gender right now. And that's also like such an evolving journey for me and a recent shift and I get so many questions about it. And on the one hand, you're like, it's frustrating. But also, I try so hard to be. It's a new thing for everyone, sort of. I mean, not in human history, but in recent years. So I'm trying to be super patient and with my parents and stuff, you know, I think it's important that people feel safe to ask questions. But then, I don't know, they got to be polite questions too.

[Abby Wambach]

They really do.

[Mae Martin]

And also, if it's something you can Google, maybe do that as well. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

What is the conversation with your parents right now and what is the journey you're on with gender?

[Mae Martin]

Well, I. So I'm 35 and looking back, I'm like, oh, I'm for sure trans. Like, but then. And for 10 years, I thought every day about. About top surgery. And I just never thought I'd be brave enough to do it. I thought it was such a huge deal and such a massive thing, and then I just did it at Christmas, and it's been incredible. And I'm. It's. I didn't think that this type of joy or, like, feeling comfortable in my body, I didn't think it was accessible to me. I thought everyone else felt the way I felt all the time. And now I'm like, oh, my God. I. What a waste of time that I spent all that time worrying. So I feel great. And I think my parents can see how good I feel. And that's good. Yeah. And they've been. They've been good. Pronouns are hard for people. I mean, it's hard if you aren't in a community where you're hearing them used a lot and it becomes second nature pretty fast, I think if you. But for them, you know, they live a pretty quiet, insular life, and they can't really wrap their head around that yet, but they're trying. And they said an interesting thing the last time they visited me, and I was like, swimming in front of them. And I think they could just see how. How happy I am. And they said, we can't really understand the pronoun thing, but we. We want you to know that we see you as you are. Like, we can see that you're. You're not a girl and you don't feel like a girl. And so we, we do know and see you and all your nuances and everything, but it's just linguistically we can't get it. So I was like, oh, that's a step. But also maybe give it a go sometimes, you know, throw a they in. Yeah, for good measure.

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[Abby Wambach]

I think that one of the things that has really helped me, not only the fact that I'm very non binary in so much of my life, I just, I feel like I'm attached to the pronoun she her. And so one of our children, they have a non binary friend that that uses the pronouns they, them and it. It blew my mind when I started to think of it as just a third way. Rather than just having two options, there is a middle option and that helped me orient how to communicate. And by the way, like I still make mistakes. They all do. And just moving beyond those mistakes as quickly and as least dramatically as possible has, has been really kind of shifting for me.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah, it's tricky because it's like you talk about paradigm shifts on, on this podcast. It is a big and challenging thing, but it's such an important thing that's happening. It might take a hundred years for us to undo how rigid we've become in this binary. But we're definitely headed in that direction. And it's super important and interesting, and we. I think if. If we can get interested in it in a historical and scientific and cultural anthropological way, if you do any sort of research into it, it's just very compelling. And you start to see these rigid walls that have been built around us and how limiting they can be. I mean, even right now, the World Health Organization defines gender as a cultural thing. It really rocks people's world, though. But even sex is not that binary. You know, when you come down to it, it's good and exciting, but I don't know, it really. It really. People have a panic reaction, for sure.

[Glennon Doyle]

So the World Health Organization says that gender is cultural. Here's a question. So I. Every poor person who listens to this podcast, who has to listen to me talk about gender incessantly because I'm always trying to figure it out, but I can't understand. Gender doesn't feel like anything that's inside me. It feels like things that I have put on the outside of me because that's how I've been told to present in the world, but I can't find it inside of me. So, like, when our son is explaining how his friend is. Is identifying, and he says, look, just look at them like they're, you know, a soul. All souls have to be thems. Like, when you start thinking about human beings as not gendered because gender's not real, you just will start thinking them, them, them, because it makes more sense, actually.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Which I think is so beautiful and probably right. But then I have. I get to that place where I'm like, gender is not real. It's not fucking real.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then I have a dear friend who's trans and is like, oh, no, thank you. That's not correct. I am a man.

[Mae Martin]

Interesting.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I'm like, wait, what is it?

[Mae Martin]

Yeah, that's super interesting. It's a minefield. I mean, I'm more. I feel similarly to you. I think where I'm. My personal experience is when I sort of free myself from those things, I'm like, I don't identify with any of it, really. But then, I don't know, I guess in the performance of it, like, I. I do identify. Like, I feel more comfortable being masculine presenting, and I kind of enjoy embodying those tropes sometimes, like, playfully. And the people that I idolize and stuff and growing up, wanted to be like, are all, you know, River Phoenix, and people like that. So I don't know if we can just take the heaviness out of it and be like, it's a form of self expression. There's creativity to it. We can do whatever we want. And so, yeah, sure, if you feel like a man and you identify with that, then great, have fun. And then people should respect it and treat you that way. But yeah, I think it's scary for people to think that there is an element of creativity. Like, it's scary to give yourself that power, you know?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it's good.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's scary to consider that there's an element of creativity in it. Ooh. And it's just so amazing that you can get to like, oh, now I've got it. Now I've got it. Gender is not even a thing. It's not even real. Yes. That has evolved. And then somebody's like, that's totally wrong.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Mae Martin]

Oh, man. I mean, I wrote that book about sexuality and gender and then I did a book tour and I was going into high schools and by the time the book came out it was outdated and I was using the wrong terms and people were teaching me. So it's, you know, we just have to be all curious and interested and patient and. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Constantly curious. Strong opinion. That is interesting.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's just any time that you kind of affix some kind of immutable to it is when you get in trouble if you're like, yes, it absolutely is horseshit. I know that with certainty. It's like, maybe you're in trouble because if it is possible part of your creative expression, then someone might be certain about themselves in this moment.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And maybe in the next moment they have a different certainty about themselves. So maybe you get in trouble when you ascribe any kind of meaning or certainty for others.

[Mae Martin]

Sure.

[Amanda Doyle]

Whereas if we just were more concerned about interrogating our own creativity and identity.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And only being concerned with that.

[Mae Martin]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Then maybe that's where it would be. Rich.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Mae Martin]

There's a really interesting book called can the Monster Speak? A speech given to a college of psychoanalysts by a trans man called Paul Preciado. And that sort of rocked my world. It was really interesting. But he talks about how we're. I think part of the reason people are so reactive is that we're still attached to this kind of Freudian way of thinking where our gender is a huge part of our identity and our, our psyche. And this sort of 200 year old white guys being like, but you know, men want to their Mothers. And like, it's. And like, that's a huge part of our identity and we have to undo that. And then it's a much less big deal if you want to be in some gray area or you want to be a bit more fluid. Yeah. Because it doesn't have to be such a huge part of your personality and your cultural roles and things like that.

[Amanda Doyle]

And it can be more part for some people, for sure. Because I think we live in this world where you're either. That has to define everything about you and you have to go out into the world and you're, you know, your first. Your first standup. You're gay, May. And you're like, no, I'm a comic. Why am I gay, May? On stage, you know, or there's people like me who. Because I never had to do any kind of interrogation of myself because I was never asked to or forced to. It was just kind of like, assume the position. Position, literally and figuratively. There is. I have an underdeveloped sense of that because I was just kind of like, check the box. No questioning here. And yeah, sure.

[Glennon Doyle]

Imagine if you went on an interview and the first five questions that people asked you was about your sexuality. Right. You'd be like, what the fuck? But that's all that happens, right?

[Mae Martin]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's what happened today.

[Mae Martin]

So happened today. Yeah. I do feel lucky that I've, like, from when I could even think, I could sense that the things I was being told were immutable, objective truths, didn't fit with how I felt inside. So that was very confusing. But I feel really grateful because it made me challenge all kinds of other things as well and learn about myself more.

[Glennon Doyle]

I want to ask you what other things it helped you challenge and. And look at differently. And also, I just want to say I think it's cool to think about for me, because you said, maybe only be certain about yourself. And that hasn't worked for me. I want to not be ever certain about myself because I surprised the shit out of myself. You know, six years ago, weekly, you said at one point, may, you don't have to be gay to be gay. And that was for sure true for me. Like, yeah, totally. Right? You never know. And that's a beautiful thing about sexuality. It reminds me a little bit about faith. Like, with thinking about faith, it's just this, like, ongoing, like, evolution of ideas that's fluid constantly. But what did this whole breaking down of everything in terms of gender and sexuality, what else did it help you.

[Mae Martin]

Deconstruct Well, I think I had a kind of existential spiral in my teens and spun out and was a bad teen. I think a lot of it came from that feeling of. Yeah. Questioning the systems around me. I dropped out of school. I'm not recommending this, but I. I guess I. I saw options that other people weren't. Weren't seeing. Like, I saw that I. I could do comedy, and I love doing comedy, so I did that. And I don't think I would have done that at such a young age if I hadn't already been thinking, what makes me happy? And where do I fit in? Things like monogamy have been recently. I've been thinking a lot about. And. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

What do you think about that? It's working pretty well for everybody, so just wouldn't.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, I'm shocked because the data suggests you're just straight up wrong about that.

[Mae Martin]

I know, I know. It's. It is pretty wild. I don't know. I listen to a lot of Esther Perel. Like, you know, I'm very into people doing what works for them and, And. And not reactively assuming that open relationships aren't as valid as closed ones. I think it. You just have to continually interrogate it and not get stuck. And we only have one life, so if you're. If you're miserable, you know, or stuck, then there's other options.

[Glennon Doyle]

There's such a gift in not fitting in. Like, I think this is what people don't like when we think. We always joke and say our favorite people are queer people, but it's because there's some kind of personality that's forged by the gift of not being rejected by mainstream at first because you're like, oh, I guess if I can't join them, I'll just be free.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. Or you think, well, everyone in my class is listening to boy bands and girl bands, but I can't find my. Who I'm even supposed to be attracted to or identify with. So I guess I'm gonna listen to Nine Inch Nails or the Pink Floyd and then that I'm kind of grateful that that happened. But, yeah, I mean, there's drawbacks too, right? Then that's how you end up with sort of battle wounds and. But yeah, any kind of otherness, I think, is a. Is a gift for sure.

[Amanda Doyle]

The creativity kind of seems at the core of all of this, because if you're getting at the place where you're like, well, what the world is telling me about gender is clearly horseshit. What else is horseshit? Okay, maybe this whole idea that I have to go to school for 12 years and then for four more and then to get the job that I hate, maybe that's horseshit. And. And you start to get creative. And then even with your idea of monogamy, it is so wild that there's this kind of compulsory monogamy as the option. Like, where do you think the creativity shows up in relationships that makes different types of relationships possible? What is the creative way that you think? Is it about playing with jealousy? Is it about playing with, like, your ownership over the other person? What is the place to be creative that opens up different forms of relationship?

[Mae Martin]

I mean, I'm still figuring it out, but I think that where I've been most successful is where we, like, constantly remembered that we're two individuals and communicated well and had a sense of humor about it and not, you know, felt like we own each other's total metric of attraction and everything. And. I don't know. I'm not a particularly jealous person. It turns me on when people are attracted to the person I'm with or if they're flirting. I feel like it keeps me on my toes and I like that. I'm still figuring it out, though. It's amazing, I think, just communicating. I don't know. I mean, you guys are successfully doing relationship stuff, so you're the experts, really. No.

[Abby Wambach]

I have so much abandonment issues that monogamy is the only way for me, for sure. So, like, I know that. I ask her even now we're like six years married. I'm like, are you ever gonna leave me? Please tell me you're never gonna leave.

[Glennon Doyle]

I have to start each. If I'm like, I need. If I'm like, I need somebody to do the dishes, I have to start the conversation with, I'm not going to leave you. I just need you to put your cup in the dishwasher.

[Mae Martin]

That's so funny. Well, I sometimes wonder if my fear of codependency comes from a fear of being abandoned. Just don't let yourself get to that place, because then what happens if it all falls apart? I've definitely. Yeah, it ebbs and flows. Who knows? It's so hard to tell what part of our personality is a coping mechanism that was formed years ago and what's, like, our actual personality? You know what I mean? Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

Totally get it.

[Mae Martin]

Are we just the sum of our coping mechanisms, basically?

[Abby Wambach]

I think so.

[Amanda Doyle]

And that's what's the hard part. When you're trying to get like, I'm trying to be the truest me, like most authentic to myself. Am I like, am I just saying I want to be the most authentic reflection of the accumulation of my traumas?

[Mae Martin]

Yes. Yeah. It's like, well, who would totally. Who would I have been if I had to tell never met another person. If I'd grown up on a beach, who would I have been? I don't know that I would have done comedy. I don't. I'm pretty introverted. I, I think I was trying to cheer up my mom probably, you know, but it's worked out, you know, it.

[Amanda Doyle]

All comes back to we're all just trying to cheer up our mom completely.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, totally. That's right. Our mom or our dad. We're just trying to make them happy still. Damn.

[Mae Martin]

Yes. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

You do say you have an addictive personality. So Abby and I are both. That's another reason we relate to you. What is that like?

[Mae Martin]

Well, you know, now I'm just really vigilant about when things start to become habitual or start to dominate or start to feel like self medicating. I always talked about it. Like, I have this little shrimp in the back of my head that's this. And when, when it wakes up, it just devours everything else. And so I'm just trying to keep that shrimp asleep and like gently soothe it and keep it asleep so it doesn't wake up and. Yeah, but I, I'm in a pretty good place now. I think it was a big thing for me was because I had a big drug problem in my teens and then I got clean. And so I always relegated thinking about addiction to just substances. And I thought, well, I had that problem and now I don't. And, you know, I can never touch that substance again. But other than that, I'm all good. And then once I realized that addictive behavior permeates all aspects of life and, you know, relationships and that it's not just about substances and 12 step programs. And then that was big. And then, and then I tried to have just in general, a healthier, more balanced thing. I don't know. Now I do a lot of escape rooms and I, I try to get adrenaline healthy places. So I do like horror escape rooms where there's like an actor dressed like a clown in a dungeon and you're trying to escape. It's psychotic.

[Abby Wambach]

You're trying to create like the dopamine hit and the like.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is that why you do all the things?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, baby. That is risk. Like risk and drinking and drugs are like that. It's producing the same chemical reactions in my brain.

[Glennon Doyle]

She's always hurdling herself down mountains and out of like just the escape room.

[Mae Martin]

Adrenaline junkie. Wait, but I, I imagine a lot of athletes have that right, because that's the endorphins. I only just started getting into working out at all in the past few years. And it, man, it feels good.

[Abby Wambach]

It's.

[Mae Martin]

I completely get it. How. Yeah, yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

This is where wet head comes in for the rest of us who maybe aren't as thrill seekers. That's maybe your version, Glennon. You could try that what is it?

[Mae Martin]

This is, I really recommend it, especially with kids. It's a game called Wet Head that you. It's just a hat that has a bucket of water on it and then it's like Russian roulette where you pull out, you take turns pulling out and you trade the hat around and you pull out these pegs that are fastening the bucket and one of them is going to douse you. And it's very simple. I mean it's called Wet Head. Like it just couldn't be more simple and fun.

[Amanda Doyle]

I love Wet Head. So if, if you, you know, have a coke problem, try Wet Head.

[Mae Martin]

Try Wet Head.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, it's going to work out for you.

[Mae Martin]

I bring it to dinner parties and stuff and people are like, do we have to play Wet Head tonight? Yes. To ruin someone's night.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I was lauding your parents and saying they were so amazing. But there's one little sentence in your book that says, listen, they weren't perfect. There's reasons that I wash my face five times a day and have fear of abandonment. So let's go back to that. How did they fuck up and why. Why did they make you wash your face five times a day and have abandoned minishes?

[Mae Martin]

They kicked me out when I was 16 and I thought, you know, I don't know, I hit puberty. I had an amazing childhood. It was, I'm so lucky and privileged. And then yeah, just as soon as puberty hit my. We, we butted heads a lot and. And I was doing drugs and I was not in a great place and. And I think they reacted with rage like at being lied to and just sort of shut down and they did a tough love thing that was difficult that I think they probably regret aspects of. We haven't really talked about it. It's very strange. We're so close now but we don't really talk about that time. But it must be very hard to be a parent.

[Glennon Doyle]

It is, it is, yeah.

[Mae Martin]

I can't imagine. And everybody now, I really see them as three dimensional people with doing their best in the moment with their own trauma and things like that. So yeah, but it was tough for sure.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm sure we have lots of people listening. I mean I think people reassessing and actually believing that they can be comfortable in their own bodies because of stories like yours, because of progress, more and more families are going to be in a situation like your parents where their kid says nope. What could be done? Well in that situation, like you once said that when a parent finds out their kid is gay, they should just pretend that they just found a four leaf clover.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like how do parents do that with laminate it. Laminate your queer kid.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. My parents have always have been great about sexuality and gender. I think that stuff's just about listening and not doing that thing of going, oh my God. Well, I'm fine with it, but I'm just so worried about you and the world and immediately making it negative and heavy. And I would avoid doing that. It's the same. People feel so comfortable doing that. I always talk about adopting like I would love to adopt and it's so crazy how comfortable people are going, oh, you, you bring it up and you go, I'd love to adopt. And they go, well, you know, it could be really hard. I'm just. And you're like, yeah, I know, but like, what's the alternative? No one adopts. It could be hard anyway. It's crazy how comfortable people are going to that negative fear place. But my main thing is if your kids doing drugs, I feel strongly about that stuff, that if you feel like they're self medicating, you want to create an environment where they can talk to you and come to you and not feel like they have to hide it from you. And I think the more we understand addiction and where that comes from because so many people do drugs and not everybody gets addicted to drugs. Right. There's something going on there underneath usually. So it's maybe having empathy and looking at not the method of soothing. But why is that person self soothing? But I guess it must be impossible as a parent. You'd feel so worried and betrayed and all that. But yeah, I think just trying not to get angry.

[Abby Wambach]

And I also think that what I have found in parenting, because I just got to parenting seven years ago when Glenn and I got together.

[Mae Martin]

That's amazing.

[Abby Wambach]

And what I have found is I have a fear inside of me of being a poor parent. Our kids are amazing, but if they ever have an issue, I am now projecting that I am the reason why this issue is happening. And so that could cause. I'm sure there's a lot of parents out there who might not be so introspective to be able to let that feeling come up and not act on it, whether it's kicking your kid out of the house or punishing them or grounding them. I was brought up in an authoritarian home where what my mom said went. And I have to fight some of those inclinations and urges that I have and then also fight this, this fear of me fucking up my own kids in the moment. And it's almost impossible to do. I need to have somebody who can call me out on that. I mean, maybe not in the moment.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. I have learned that. Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Conversation later. That's like, hey, that sounded a little bit like fear. Your mom projection. And so then I've had to go back and apologize for our kids for some of my instinctive, like, reactions to some stuff that they've brought. It's the hardest and most confusing, and it changes every day. You're like, oh, my kid is. I think that they've got it. And then the next day something else happens.

[Amanda Doyle]

I think all of the parenting stuff comes down to, like, if you could look at your kid as a human instead of a referendum on you or reflection on you. I think that whole thing, that's like, what you're saying, Abby. It's. It's like you are going through this thing, therefore that means something about me.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Or you are doing amazing and are an amazing athlete, therefore that says something about me. Like, you suck. That's an indictment of me. You're amazing. That's a compliment of me. When actually none of those things are true. It's just a person who's living in your house.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. You know, so interesting. If you change the language in your head in the moment to, like, how would I react if I was a mentor? Then some of the emotions not attached to it. And you can. Yeah, but I mean, it must be impossible. I think you have to. Everyone knows, like, I will up my kid no matter what. And then. And then you go from there.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Except for a friend calls and says, my kid came out. My kid is non binary. My kids, whatever. I do think that's a bit of a referendum on parenting in a good way. My first thing is already always like, congratulations as parents, because you've created some kind of environment where this kid feels safe telling you who they are or even exploring it, even being like, I actually am going inside and not just listening to, like, there's some kind of badass, free, full of integrity environment to even be presenting that.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah, definitely.

[Amanda Doyle]

You use the word rage to describe the reaction to that period of your life. I'm just curious what your relationship to rage is now and what role that plays in your life either inside of you or people around you.

[Mae Martin]

I think I. I think it would probably do me a lot of good to do a primal scream in the desert. I always fantasize about going to the desert and doing an insane primal scream. I definitely Feel that and feel like I suppress anger a lot. I'm not a very angry person. I don't know, I've had periods. I made a show, a sort of semi autobiographical show, and it made me look a lot at my life and my teens and things like that. And after making it, I had a period of healthy rage, for sure, and then got some therapy. Anger's an interesting one. I just grew up on Star wars, so I was like, anger leads to the dark side.

[Abby Wambach]

And to be a comedian, it must be confusing because everybody puts you in the funny box. Happy, funny and then happy. But comedians, I have found and large, are super in touch with their feelings. All of the sad feelings too. So I'm not surprised that there's some stuff that's happening underneath.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I asked you before what things we could do or not do with. With our kids and you said, don't bring them the. I love you, but I'm just so scared for what's coming to you. I think that's so good. That's just such a good little tip. So, in terms of other things we should or shouldn't do. So let's say you were being interviewed by three podcasters. And let's say that those podcasters had just seen a post that you had put up where you were on a red carpet with Elliot Page. And let's just say that those podcasters were a little bit obsessed with Elliot Page and you. And so let's just say that they had studied those pictures really well and seen two toothbrushes in one of those pictures. Would it be appropriate or just completely not to ask you if you and Elliot Page are friends or the kind of special friends that might require toothbrush carrying?

[Mae Martin]

I need to look at this toothbrush thing. No, hang. I'm just getting the photo up. I met Elliot when I was 19, actually, in a bar in Toronto, and we were both sort of sketchy Canadian people. And then we reconnected a few years ago and no, we are very much bros, but I'm kind of enjoying the speculation.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Mae Martin]

So I think that that is the reflection. That is what I said.

[Abby Wambach]

I said. And.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I. I said that is not a reflection. There's no way that's a reflection.

[Abby Wambach]

It is what I.

[Glennon Doyle]

To effing toothbrushes.

[Abby Wambach]

I said. I said it.

[Mae Martin]

And I think, yeah, that's. We were getting ready in Elliot's hotel and I think that's one toothbrush. But look, he's hot. He's super hot. It was fun being his date for sure. For the night.

[Amanda Doyle]

So you heard it here first. Elliot is still available. Not sure about May. Okay, we're gonna find out if that's an appropriate question to ask.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is it? Is that an appropriate question?

[Mae Martin]

I'm always available. Okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're always available.

[Mae Martin]

No, I do try to keep that part of my life slightly. Just because then it's so embarrassing if you're like, yeah, I'm so happy and settled. And then it ends and you're like, I've erase that.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so embarrassing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Nothing's immutable, Meg.

[Mae Martin]

We already talked about it. Exactly.

[Amanda Doyle]

Creative expression.

[Mae Martin]

I just moved to LA in May. I've been in London for 12 years, and that was a big change. And it's been fun being kind of a free agent in la.

[Amanda Doyle]

What has that been like? I didn't know you moved back to la. I just knew you were in London forever. What has that been like?

[Mae Martin]

I grew up in Toronto and then I moved. I was in all my 20s in England, and then. I don't know. I'm trying to get to know this city. It's crazy. I don't have a driver's license or drive, so it's kind of a tricky city in that sense. But I'm making lots of friends. It was so cool meeting Tig and Stephanie. And then you had them on your podcast. And then I'm doing improv with Stephanie tonight. No way.

[Amanda Doyle]

I saw that.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. They're so great. Both. And. Yeah. So I'm trying to manifest my dream friend group. And. Yeah, we gotta hang out.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. I love Tig and Stephanie.

[Mae Martin]

Do you know what?

[Glennon Doyle]

We talked Tig. I couldn't figure out Tig's email sense of humor. And so every time Tig wrote to me, I thought she was mad at me.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah, I can totally see that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. And so I kept telling my sister, I never do this with people's emails, but I kept reading them to my. My sister and saying, is she mad at me or. So I'd have to create responses that could go either way.

[Mae Martin]

Right. Where you could be playing into the joke or you could also be apologizing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly.

[Mae Martin]

That's really funny.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was really confusing for a while. So what do you do now? What's next? What are you into? What are you working on? What are you trying to let go of? What's 2023 going to be like for you?

[Mae Martin]

Those are all good questions. I'm about to record a new standup special, a new Netflix special, and I'm excited about. And then I'm writing this new Netflix show, and then two movies I'm writing, and, yeah, just having fun, trying to enjoy my new body. And, you know. And it felt good wearing a suit.

[Glennon Doyle]

The other day, you know, Abby talked about the suit. Abby's obsessed with the suit.

[Abby Wambach]

I was actually talking to these two about how my sexuality is in some way, that suit.

[Mae Martin]

Like. Right.

[Abby Wambach]

But it's not, because I'm thinking, ooh, I want to, you know, fuck who's in that suit. I'm thinking, that looked like something I want to wear to feel sexy. So I think that sexuality is both the way that we see it and the way that we feel about our own body in it.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah, completely. Yeah, completely.

[Abby Wambach]

And then I did have a question. I wear suits, and we have to go to an event on Thursday night, and I'm thinking I'm going to wear a proper tux. I've got a tuck shirt, but I don't want to wear a bow tie or a tie.

[Mae Martin]

Me neither.

[Abby Wambach]

There's something about it that makes it that. Then I will for sure, for the rest of the night be called a man. Which is fine. That doesn't, like, necessarily offend me, but, like, I also just use the pronoun she.

[Glennon Doyle]

Her.

[Abby Wambach]

So is it with, like, a proper tuck shirt with, like, the wings at the front? Is it okay to open the top button and just go a little bit casual, or should I button the top button? With no bow tie?

[Mae Martin]

I mean, I think you can do whatever you want. You're happy, you're the coolest. You like people. They're just lucky that you're there. No, you.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's a great answer.

[Mae Martin]

I don't know anything about fashion. I know that Gucci dressed me for that event. I've never been dressed by anyone, and it was so thrilling. And they were a little bummed that I wasn't wearing a tie for sure, but I couldn't do it. I feel constricted. I just.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. And so it felt good. But that wasn't a tux shirt, so I don't know.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Mae Martin]

I think you can. No, it'll look. It'll look like at the end of a wedding, you know that. Like, slightly more relaxed.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah, it looks confident, is what it looks like. Yeah.

[Mae Martin]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

It looks relaxed, confident.

[Abby Wambach]

I was thinking about maybe getting a bow tie and just hanging it low.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, I was just thinking that.

[Mae Martin]

That's pretty cool.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's like, y'all showed up for the party, but I showed up for the after party.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I just can't rock a bow tie. But Elliot looked amazing.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm so jealous of people who can. But I just. For whatever reason, I'm like, it's too much.

[Glennon Doyle]

Clothes are the whole thing.

[Abby Wambach]

It's almost too formal. I'm, like, in a proper tux, but I'm like, a bow tie or a tie.

[Discover Advertiser]

It's too formal.

[Amanda Doyle]

Bridge too far, people.

[Mae Martin]

I want to get to a place where I can be adventurous and dress like Harry Styles and wear like. But I'm still. I'm still trying to figure out all that. But, yeah, one day I'll be wearing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Sequins in the last minute. We have here. What's an idea or a belief or a way of being that you're trying to leave behind?

[Mae Martin]

I'm trying not to do things out of habit. There's this. I think it's Emily Dickinson. There's a phrase that she wrote that's like, when the skeleton of habit upholds the human frame. And it just was so bleak. And I think about how so much of our life, we just are on autopilot. And even things like, just the way I walk to work, like, take a different route, just. It's that thing about creativity, just making sure everything's a conscious choice. I have to get better at saying no to people and be less of a workaholic. And I've been doing a lot of music, and I'm really shy about it because I'm not very good, but. And it makes me very terrified. And I think. But I'm a comedian. I can't do. It's so embarrassing. And I've been trying to go, well, I can get rid of that label, too. You know what I mean? That's right. And just do things that scare me all the time.

[Abby Wambach]

What kind of music? Yep.

[Mae Martin]

Like emo, you know, I don't know. Embarrassing acoustic guitar music.

[Abby Wambach]

So good.

[Mae Martin]

I love it.

[Amanda Doyle]

I love it.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah, it makes me happy. And. Yeah. I don't want to monetize it. I just want to do it and. And experiment with it. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, it's important, not only because it's going to be great for you, but also all the people in the world that look like you, that don't want to adhere to or want to look to the boy bands or the girl, you know, Like, I think. Yeah. I think it's important that there's people that look like us that are actually doing things in all the industries.

[Mae Martin]

That's so cool. Yeah, I do. I mean, growing up. Yeah. There was no one that looked like us. And it is exciting. But then you don't want to get paralyzed by the pressure.

[Glennon Doyle]

You must do it for the sake of the future. No, you just want to have some joy with it.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

I get that because I'm a writer, but I. Secretly inside of me.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, here we go.

[Glennon Doyle]

Just want to be a poet.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, I thought you were going to say a musician.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, no. I mean, you know, the poet thing.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

But like, I'm so scared to be like, wait, am I going to write a book? Book of poems? Like, no one's going to like.

[Mae Martin]

You should completely. I. I totally relate. Yeah. The only difference between being a poet and not being a poet is writing poetry. Right? It's the same with. Yeah, exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's good, May. You're just a damn dream.

[Mae Martin]

Yep, you are. Thank you. So, this has been so nice. I. Last night I told my friend I was doing it and she was like, are you going to cry? And I was like, am I? I don't know.

[Abby Wambach]

Do people cry?

[Mae Martin]

And she was like, I don't know. It could get deep. And I was like, oh, my God. But yeah, you guys are so amazing. And thanks so much for having me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, we'd love to hang out sometime and show you nothing in L. A because we don't know anything about L. A.

[Mae Martin]

Let's have a games night. Yeah. That's all I want to do.

[Abby Wambach]

And coming from somebody who didn't have any representation to look towards, I just think what you're doing and all the ways that you're doing it, your work matters and it's changing people's perspectives. And so I just. I want to thank you so much because you're helping me even, you know.

[Mae Martin]

Now you got me. I'm going to cry. Thank you.

[Abby Wambach]

I just think that. I know that you've had to forge yourself to be in the position that you are in so much of your life and have had to deal with a lot of ups and downs, but here we are. And what you're doing is heroic. To put your work out into the world and do it in the way that you are.

[Discover Advertiser]

It's beautiful.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you.

[Mae Martin]

Thank you so much. And ditto. Yeah, thank you.

[Amanda Doyle]

I also think it's very cool that you're inspiring in a different way, too. Is the. Whatever the opposite of creative scarcity is. Because what I admired so much is that after two seasons of Feel Good, you, even though could have kept that going and kept going creatively, you were like, no, that is how I want to end. And I believe that There will be abundance for me in other things. And I think that was so special and probably gave a lot of folks the invitation to do that. When mostly in Hollywood, it's very hard to stop something that you can keep doing. So thanks to you on that. That was awesome.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah, I didn't want to torture that couple anymore. I felt like I left them in a good place and I would have been too mean to. You'd have to break them up again if you kept going and it would be awful. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Give somebody a happy ending. We love you, May. The rest of you, your responsibility this week is to figure out three things that are your sexuality.

[Mae Martin]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Mae Martin]

Completely.

[Glennon Doyle]

Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you are. Everybody has a sexuality. So you figure out three things. Okay? We love you. When things get hard this week, don't forget, we can do hard things. Thank you, May. Bye.

[Mae Martin]

Thank you so much.

[Discover Advertiser]

Yay.

[Glennon Doyle]

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.

[Mae Martin]

SA.