How to Break Cycles with Allison Russell (Best Of)

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Can Do Hard Things Episode: How to Break Cycles with Allison Russell (Best Of)
Release Date: August 3, 2025
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle
Guest: Allison Russell

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Introduction

In this episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle welcome Grammy-nominated musician Allison Russell to discuss her journey of breaking cycles of trauma, her latest album The Returner, and her activism against systemic injustices. The conversation delves deep into personal healing, the power of art, and the importance of fostering supportive communities.

Allison Russell's Personal Journey

Allison Russell opens up about her challenging upbringing, highlighting the impact of her mother's struggles with mental health and abusive relationships. She shares, “[I was] raised in Montreal, Quebec, Canada... my mother had severe postpartum depression and paranoid schizophrenia” ([02:17]). This tumultuous childhood led to her removal from her mother's care before the age of two, introducing her to the foster system and further abuse from a predatory adult.

Breaking Free Through Music and Community

Despite these hardships, Allison found solace in the bohemian culture of Montreal and alternative high school friendships. Music became her refuge and a means of expression. She reflects on the transformative power of music, saying, “Art, of course. The magic and the mystery of art” ([36:00]).

The Returner: A Journey of Healing and Re-Embodiment

Allison discusses her latest album, The Returner, describing it as a "joyful reclamation of being here now" and an embodiment of healing. She emphasizes the album's creation process, stating, “We made The Returner in six days... complete trust with everyone that you're engaged in creative communion with” ([40:31]). The album serves as an anthem for those recovering from trauma, celebrating resilience and the reclaiming of one's body and spirit.

Notable Tracks and Themes

• "Persephone": Allison describes this song as both sad and joyful, capturing the essence of first love and sexual awakening. She shares, “It is such a joyful song. It’s first love. It’s sexual reclamation and awakening” ([23:14]).
• "All Without Within": Highlighted as the sexiest song on the record, this track features collaborations with Wendy and Lisa, symbolizing the power of chosen family and creative collaboration ([40:12]).

Intergenerational Healing and Parenting

The conversation shifts to the impact of trauma on the next generation. Allison and Amanda discuss how children like Allison's daughter, Ida, are breaking the cycles of abuse through emotional intelligence and resilience. Allison notes, “They trust us enough to tease us and to mock us... they can be their full selves” ([09:40]).

Motherhood as a Catalyst for Healing

Allison shares how becoming a mother transformed her relationship with her own body and self-worth. She reveals, “My little brother and my niece and nephew and a number... music, of course. Art, of course. The magic and the mystery of art” ([36:00]). Motherhood provided her with a profound sense of purpose and connection, aiding her in overcoming disordered eating and self-criticism.

Activism and Social Justice

Allison passionately discusses her activism, particularly in advocating for sensible gun reform and fighting against white supremacy and systemic injustices. She highlights the struggles in Tennessee, emphasizing the importance of voting and community support to combat legislative terrorism. Allison states, “We can't show my daughter that I'm running away from fascism. We don't run away from fascism. We stop it” ([51:12]).

Honoring Truth Tellers

The hosts and Allison honor figures like Sinead O'Connor, Tracy Chapman, and Gloria Johnson for their courage in speaking out against systemic abuses. They discuss the recurring pattern of demonizing strong, vocal women who challenge the status quo, reinforcing the need to support and honor these truth tellers in real-time rather than posthumously ([30:34]).

The Power of Community and Chosen Family

Allison emphasizes the significance of chosen family and supportive communities in the healing process. Reflecting on her experiences, she shares, “We just learned so much from each other. What love feels like, what love to feel loved” ([56:38]). The podcast underscores the importance of surrounding oneself with empathetic and understanding individuals to foster resilience and joy.

Final Thoughts and Encouragement

As the episode concludes, Allison encourages listeners to embrace their journeys of healing and to find joy in their bodies and communities. She reflects on the brevity of life and the importance of experiencing love and peace fully: “Everyone can take the journey with either album. But they are in fact, Outside Child is volume one, broadly the past. The Returner is volume two. It's the present” ([42:15]).

Notable Quotes

• "We can't run away from fascism. We stop it. We surround it with love and we overwhelm it and we vote it out." — Allison Russell ([51:12])
• "Art, of course. The magic and the mystery of art." — Allison Russell ([36:00])
• "It’s sexual reclamation and awakening." — Allison Russell ([23:14])

Conclusion

This episode of We Can Do Hard Things offers a profound exploration of overcoming trauma through art, community, and personal resilience. Allison Russell's heartfelt narrative provides inspiration for listeners to break free from destructive cycles and embrace healing with courage and love. Her insights into motherhood, activism, and the transformative power of music resonate deeply, embodying the podcast's mission to tackle life's hard things with honesty and support.

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Transcript

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[Amanda Doyle]

Welcome Pod Squad. Today we are delighted to tell you that we have the Alison Russell with us. After career spent as a gifted multi instrumentalist backing numerous other artists, she finally released her solo project in 2021. She made her Opry debut, appeared at the Country Music hall of Fame and performed at the 2022 Grammys Premiere Ceremony. She has been nominated for four Grammys. She has earned three Americana Awards. Her recent album the Returner is just It's a real experience. You've got to listen Alison Russell welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Yay. There she is.

[Alison Russell]

So excited to talk to y' all. I was just listening to your incredible conversation with Andrea Gibson and me. Bang. My beautiful literary agent, Meg Thompson, sent it to me and just intuitively didn't know we were doing this, you know, and just sent it to me.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, no way.

[Alison Russell]

Yeah. She was like, you need to listen to this. It's gonna change your life. Okay, I will.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, thank you for listening, and we've already started, so. Hi.

[Alison Russell]

Welcome.

[Amanda Doyle]

You. Alison Russell.

[Alison Russell]

Wonderful to meet you all, sort of officially. I remember seeing y' all and saying hi kind of in a dark green room at Red Rocks, but that was.

[Amanda Doyle]

A while ago, so I was thinking about that in preparation for this moment. I think that you and I, the first time we met, we were sitting on the floor in a huge green room, back of Red Rocks, eating In N Out. I think there was, like, 400 boxes of in N Out burgers. It was at backstage after a Brandy Alison Russell Sista Strings, Everybody was there show. It was midnight, and I was so proud of myself for being awake. And I was like, oh, this is what it's like behind the scenes at a rock star show. Except that I don't think this is how it is at a rock star show, because it was 500 cheeseburgers, 500 children.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

There was, like, wolf pack.

[Alison Russell]

It was the wolf. The feral wolf pack. My daughter was among them. Ida.

[Amanda Doyle]

I know Ida was next to you. Eva, Kath and Brandy's kids were running. Everybody's kids were running all. That's what it's like behind the scenes. At one of these shows, I kept being amazed by the love and family atmosphere and also by the fact that everyone was still awake because it was like 12 hours.

[Alison Russell]

Wild, feral children. So excited. They had all, you know, sung on stage and all the rest of it. But that is the magic that Brandi and Catherine create with their, you know, their beautiful love in of. It's not just a show. It's a family, and it's a foundation, and it's making music mean more, and it's uplifting. Everyone that comes into their magical orbit and circle, you know, that's just who they are. They're extraordinary. You know, I had to represent today.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, Alison's wearing a Brandy shirt. I mean, I would. I think it would not be exaggerating to say that Brandy and Cath are two of the most important people in our entire lives. Yeah, they are. Same and same for you.

[Alison Russell]

Same. Absolutely the same.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, it was that show, you know, that was actually our first concert, not only seeing you, but seeing Brandi Live.

[Alison Russell]

I didn't know that.

[Glennon Doyle]

And it was the first time that, you know, everybody who's not in the music industry has a picture of what the behind the scenes looks like. And we at the time were, like, kind of thinking, like, what is Tish gonna do? Is she gonna go into this industry? It's very different, dangerous. There's a lot of drinking and drugging, the whole thing. And we get backstage at Red Rocks, and it was totally not what we expected.

[Alison Russell]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so, I don't know. I just think that, yes, Brandy and Kath, but also you to be able to, like, feel confident in them, to bring your child with you on the road and to watch you perform. I mean, Allison, you are magic. You are fucking magic.

[Alison Russell]

You're so sweet. Means a lot to me.

[Amanda Doyle]

You're just. You're in our house all the time, Alison. Just in every room. Your music is so beautiful. So speaking of Cath and Brandi, I read the story that made me giggle so much because it reminded me of my daughter and me, but I read a story that Kath once overheard, Ida. So your daughter. And how old is Ida now?

[Alison Russell]

She's now 9. She'll be 10 at the end of December. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. So Ida was talking to Eva, who is Brandy and Cath's daughter, about how your mommies do the same thing. Right. Because Alison and Brandi, both singers, artists, and Ida said to Eva, no, my mom doesn't do what your mom does. My mom just sings sad songs about her sad past.

[Alison Russell]

That's exactly what she said. And Catherine was trying not to die laughing, you know, just trying to keep a straight face. And with her sweet, you know, decorous. Oh, Ida, your mommy's got a lovely voice. You know, just being so sweet. And Ida cuts her off like, yeah, my mom's got a good voice, but let's face it, she even makes Jingle Bells sound sad.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh.

[Alison Russell]

That kind of put a bee in my bonnet to write her some bangers for the. For the return. Because she was talking about Outside Child when she was saying that. And she has become my great, greatest victory. You will appreciate this, as was. I was on the road, and I got a call from my partner, jt, and the new record had just dropped. The returner had just dropped. And she's all about Spotify and listening to Tish, listening to Taylor Swift and Billie Eilish and everybody and Beyonce. And she walked by her room, and she had the door closed, as she often does when she's doing deep listening. And she was listening to demons from The Returner over and over again and learning the words and figuring out the chords on the piano and stuff. So, yeah, it just. That was such a triumph. Like, she likes one of the songs.

[Amanda Doyle]

God. I just know that Tish came to a couple of my speaking events a few years ago, and we left, and I was like, what did you think? And she said to me, I just. I. I don't understand. Why do you always have to start on the bathroom floor when you're addicted and you're pregnant and you're on drugs and you're so. That's what I thought of when I heard your thing. But. Okay, Allison, here's what I think is so cool. And I don't know if you're gonna relate to this at all, but when I hear that Ida says that to you, it makes me feel like it's a beautiful thing. Because the reason why they are like, oh, that's sad. Is because sadness and pain is not the water that they swim in with us.

[Alison Russell]

Yes, exactly.

[Amanda Doyle]

So it feels like a difference to them, which is a triumph for us.

[Alison Russell]

It's a total triumph. It's taking miserable cycles for them in real time, in real life. And it's joyful, and you're absolutely right. And it's also. They trust us enough to tease us and to mock us and to know that there aren't going to be some sort of draconian repercussions for doing so. You know, they can be their full selves and have some backbone and have some sass and own it, you know, in this joyful way. I love it. I mean, I kind of, almost to a fault, sort of love it when Ayda's a bit, like, Yes. A bit mouthy with everybody. I kind of love it. She's so confident. I was so cowed my whole childhood, you know, and, like, crumpled in. So to see her having more backbone, you know, at. At 3 than I did at 30 is. Is just joyful to me, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

And for them to be able to tease. Like, for them to be able to tease us about the kind of reckoning that we are trying to have with our own pain.

[Alison Russell]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Them being able to tease us is to also allow them space to be playful with their own pain.

[Amanda Doyle]

Ooh, yeah.

[Alison Russell]

You're so right.

[Glennon Doyle]

You know, and I think that, like, we were all. I. I'll speak for myself. I was shut off to not experience my own discomfort or pain out loud at all in my childhood. Ye kind of human beings. Are they going to be that they're going to be able to not only experience it, but also be able to laugh about it.

[Alison Russell]

In some ways, I do think that that's the defining. I mean, the emotional intelligence of our young ones, you know, of the Gen Z's, like Tish, and the Alphas, like Ida and Eva and Eli have just learned that they're called Alphas. You know, if you're born.

[Amanda Doyle]

I didn't even know that.

[Alison Russell]

Yes. If you're born after 2012, you're an Alpha. You're no longer a Generation Z. You're the next whole cycle, you know, of the generations of humanity, you know, if we don't drive. If we don't drive ourselves to our mass extinction. But I have hope because these young ones are so attuned and. And open to each other, listening to each other's emotions in a different way than I've ever. Certainly not with my, you know, I'm an ancient millennial. Not in my generation. My partner's an ex. Or, you know, not in that generation. They are wide open. Really, really special way that I think is required for the kind of level of crisis that we're currently facing that our human family, our species, is facing.

[Amanda Doyle]

So people often ask me, parents don't know what to share with their children. I'm Jenna X. Okay. So I'm like, wow. And a lot of. I think our generation was taught not to. To reveal any of our past pain to our kids. Yeah, we're supposed to hide it. We're supposed to. But what I love what you two are saying is, but when we do, what they learn is that we can survive and that it's not something to hide all the time.

[Alison Russell]

Yeah. And we can't hide it. It's impossible.

[Amanda Doyle]

We can't.

[Alison Russell]

When we try to hide it, it comes out in toxic ways, I think.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, yes.

[Alison Russell]

And they know because they're unbelievably brilliant and they're empaths.

[Amanda Doyle]

And when we try to. I think that the message kids get. Because they're getting a message. If our words are saying one thing, everything's fine, and our bodies are saying another thing. Trauma.

[Alison Russell]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

I think that they're thinking, there's something wrong with me. My mom's reacting that way because there's something wrong with me. Because we haven't said to them, no, no, babe, it's just there's something wrong with me. Can you talk to us for people who don't know your story at all, tell us what you want to tell us about your childhood. The beginning. You have said that you don't think it's brave to talk about trauma. You just think it's part of survival.

[Alison Russell]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Tell us what you want to tell us about your young life.

[Alison Russell]

Well, I was born and raised in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. My mom is a Scottish Canadian, and she met my biological father when they were in high school, and they had a brief high school romance. And by the time she realized she was pregnant, he was already back in Grenada. He had been studying in Canada from Grenada, and by the time her parents found out, they were getting a divorce and she didn't have family support. So as a teenager who'd been quite sheltered, she wound up having me sort of in a home for unwed mothers, the kind of a version of the Magdalene Laundries, I think, because this is Catholic. Catholic, Quebec, in. I was born in 79, and she was a white mother having a black child out of wedlock. You know, we were called illegitimate children back then. And it was a big, massive stigma to be an unwed mother. And she had a rough time of it. And by the time I was born, she had a social worker and a bit of a relationship with her mom, but, you know, was living in government housing and was just didn't have support. And back then, the trend in social work was to just remove a child at the first sign of trouble and put them in foster care. Now, it's understood that social services try very hard to keep a child within a family if it's at all possible, and to offer aid and try any number of things before they just remove the child. But in my mom's case, she didn't have anyone really advocating for her, and she had pretty severe postpartum depression after I was born, and I believe probably her first psychotic break. My mum has suffered with quite severe paranoid schizophrenia for most of her adult life and was went undiagnosed and then misdiagnosed as manic depression for many, many years, which did not help. And she struggled with substances and going on and off of medication, which has not helped. And she was very, very young when she had me. And one of the things I've been reading about is the effect that it has for very young people when they become parents, when they're not ready, that it can kind of cause an arrested development. So I've always thought of my mom more like my big sister, really, than my mom. And so I ended up being removed from her care in very early childhood when I wasn't quite two yet, because she was doing harmful things because of the depth of psychosis and despair that she was in and lack of support. And so when I was removed from her care, it was under something called Child Protective Services in Quebec, which means that the parent, if they want to get the child back, they have to go to court and prove their fitness to be parenting again. And so whilst I was there, she was groomed and courted by a much, much older predatory man, An American expat who was born in 1936 in a Sundowntown somewhere in Indiana. And he brought the abuses that he had suffered, both ideological and physical with him. I believe it's ideological abuse to raise children, you know, with violent indoctrination into white supremacy, any kind of supremacy beliefs. And so he brought all that with him, you know, when he came to Montreal and he courted my mother and he went to court and got me back from Child Protective Services after he married my mom and eventually adopted me and was my primary caregiver and a primary abuser for over a decade until I ran away from home at 15. So the beginnings were fairly miserable. But I was very lucky because I was in Montreal, which is a city that is defined by art and defined by bohemian community, and has 24 hour cafes and has one of the most beautiful cemeteries I've ever seen in the world, where I felt safe on summer nights sleeping there. Sometimes after I left home, I felt safer sleeping in the cemetery than I did in the home of the people that called themselves my family at that time. I was very lucky and I went to an alternative high school, mind moving in new directions, and I met some of my best friends in this world to this day at that alternative high school. And that just, you know, I slowly found chosen family and met my first love, who I is that called Persephone, to protect, you know, their privacy and identity.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, damn it. That's not her real name.

[Alison Russell]

It's not her real name. It's not a real name. But it was always how I thought of her because I would crawl in through her basement window. And I was, you know, the nerdy kid that was into Greek mythology and every kind of mythology. And I thought. I always felt like it was like a reverse thing where going underground, going to Hades, was this like, sheltering thing, you know, it was the most. It was the safest I'd ever felt was when we fell in love and I would sneak in through her basement window because her parents would have had a heart attack if they realized the nature of our relationship. And we were both babies. We're just 15 years old, each of us, you know, and just learning what it meant to be loved consensually and to be thought beautiful and equal and worthy and all of those things. It's an odd thing to be a black child raised in a white supremacist abusive family because there's physical abuse and your, your body eventually heals from, from that kind of abuse generally. But the, it's, of course, it's always the psychological abuse that's more insidious. It's the colonizing of our minds. And I think we're all decolonizing our minds all the time because we've been raised in these toxic systems of hierarchy.

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[Amanda Doyle]

Take us back to 15 because the Persephone song it's so sad, but it's so also joyful and beautiful. Abby and I as queer women are just like yes to I mean it's just there's something about it that's so universal to the queer experience. Also, while being incredibly personal to you about just finding safety, I love that.

[Alison Russell]

You hear the joy in it because I was quite startled when I realized that a lot of people did hear it as traumatic in some way because. Because I'm explicit in the beginning about what I'm running from. But to me it's such a joyful song. It's first love. It's sexual reclamation and awakening. And you know, I had never experienced anything consensual in my life up to then. I'd never experienced someone really truly loving me as an equal. And that was completely not just transformative, it was really, truly life saving and joyful. And realizing that sex could be joyful and not some sort of torture was completely shocking and incredible. And you know, all the things that it is for people who are hopefully haven't been messed with but is in some ways even more intense for people who have.

[Glennon Doyle]

You know, I felt that deep in my bones when we listened to that song. It's like every teenage queer kid who has been trying to fit into this one box their whole lives or stuffed into certain boxes.

[Alison Russell]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then there's like the tap, tap, tap on your window screen to me. Like I'm a romantic at heart. I just remember that first like experience with my first girlfriend and I Mean, that visual is like.

[Alison Russell]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

It made all of the confusion and pain and angst. I was like, oh, got it.

[Alison Russell]

I love that so much. This feels so good.

[Amanda Doyle]

The skinny arms get me. The skinny arms get me. I don't know.

[Alison Russell]

Why are you skinny arms? We're kids still, you know? Really? We're growing up together and learning about love together and listening to Ani DiFranco and Tracy Taupman and the Indigo Girls together. You know, of course, Sinead o'. Connor. You know, all of it. Like, Bjork. Oh, my gosh.

[Amanda Doyle]

I need to talk about Sinead o' Connor for a second.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's amazing.

[Amanda Doyle]

I actually have this on my list of things to talk about. Okay. Because I personally had what might be considered to some people, an outsized reaction to Sinead's death and the public reaction to Sinead's death. My therapist actually said to me, I don't know if there's anyone in the country who's talking to their therapist about Sinead o' Connor who doesn't know Sinead o' Connor as much as you are. Like, we might have to wonder if what we're really talking about is you, Lennon. Okay. I felt connected to you the day because I felt like you were saying on Twitter some of the things I was feeling. Like I was so pissed that people, first of all, were celebrating her after she died, who were not at all when she was alive. But also this repeated refrain of, well, she really battled her own demons.

[Alison Russell]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

I love your demon song. And I just feel like demons should be something that if you're talking about them, they should only be yours. You should not be talking about somebody else's demons who didn't claim them as demons. Because actually, what Sineado is always doing was fighting real demons. Correct. Outside of her.

[Alison Russell]

Correct. Not outside of her. I remember your tweet that day, and I remember reposting it and being like, that is exactly it. She was fighting real demons, real demonic behavior. You know, I don't believe any human is truly a monster, but there are people who behave thoroughly, monstrously and never stop, you know?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Alison Russell]

And what the Catholic Church has done and continues to do, there's still a residential school for indigenous kids open in the Dakotas. Like, that hasn't stopped yet. And across Canada, we are digging up mass graves of indigenous children. Thousands and thousands of unmarked graves. And this was done by the Catholic Church and the Canadian government and the settlers, all of us, you know, my ancestors, too. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And people who are talking about it, people who like Sinead. Sinead was right. She was right the whole time. She was right.

[Alison Russell]

She was right about everything. Glenn, it's so interesting you say this, because in my circle of close women, and actually someone I hadn't known well until Joni Jam, who I met at Joni Jam, who was Annie Lennox, we ended up texting each other back and forth, just Sinead, deep cuts back and forth and different things she had said and talking about. I mean, I was on the floor. I was supposed to fly to Prague and do a video for Demonstration, actually, with my incredible childhood friend Ethan Tobman, who is the creative director for the ERAS tour and is a total superstar and was the set designer for, like, Formation and the Lemonade, those amazing Lemonade movies. Brilliant visual artist. A big part of it. There are moving through different worlds, and it's basically like rebirthing oneself, reclaiming oneself over and over again, calling oneself to courage in this visual narrative to accompany the words and the music and. And a lot of it was to do with hair. But I was on the floor and to the point where I just wanted to shave my head and not leave the hotel room where I was in New York ever again. I just wanted to mourn in a physical. I wanted to do something physical, like rend something on myself. Shame.

[Amanda Doyle]

I do know what you mean.

[Alison Russell]

Rituals. I had to be talked down by Ethan. He was like, well, we're doing this video that involves black women's hair, so if you could wait till after that to do this. You know, he talked me down, and my partner J.T. talked me down. And it's funny that your therapist said that to you, because JT said to me, could this be something about you and not sh. At all because you never met her. Right? You actually. Right. Like. But I. But I did. She's part of my survival. When she made her stand in 92, it wasn't about ripping up the Pope's picture. It was about singing Bob Marley's War a cappella, essentially, and making it about child abuse and saying that and naming that on the biggest TV show of the day. And I was, I think, 12 when she took that stand. I don't know that I would have gathered up the courage to run from my situation. I might have just simply died in my situation had it not been for these truth tellers, you know, who showed me that there is a life beyond abuse and that there are powerful women who stand up to abuse and that maybe I could be like them. Like Tracy Chapman, who sang behind the Wall, like Sinead o'. Connor. Who sang war and made it about child abuse. Like Tori Amos, who sang Barbados. Me and a gun and a man on my back. But I haven't seen Barbados sing. So I must get out of this. These were my path lighters that showed me it was possible to survive and thrive and get out of this. Right? Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. And it just felt like all of those women are pointing out demons in our world. Like homophobia, racism, greed that kills religion that says it's one thing and then abuses children. And then we are calling that person who's saying those things crazy.

[Alison Russell]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And then everything that they said, and these are often women, everything that they're said is proven right. But the world has already done its damage to that woman. And then the woman dies and we saint her while having villainized her there her whole life. Instead of even just like pretending to honor that woman after death, we should just try to honor the next inconvenient prophet in real time.

[Alison Russell]

Yes, but we won't do that.

[Amanda Doyle]

We won't do that. We'll villainize them again and then same to them again after death. So I think it is about Sinead, it is about Tori, it is about all these people individually, it Tracey Tracy. But it's also about this rhythm, this pattern we see happening over and over again to women.

[Alison Russell]

Well, I mean, and it's been going on since the witch burnings.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right, Exactly.

[Alison Russell]

And I'm sure before it's. It's the martyring of women, it's the demonizing. Literally demonizing. They're witches. They sleep with the devil. Like it's literally demonizing. Yes. Powerful women, strong women, healers, you know.

[Amanda Doyle]

And it's also like calling, you know, Sinead her abuse as a child. And then she had ptsd. Right. But like to call PTSD a demon is so fucking insane. That is a bodily, physical reaction to something that the world has done to a person.

[Alison Russell]

Correct? Correct.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right. It's something that the world has done to us. An inner demon. And also when we label other people that. That's archaic religious language that has excused people for. Yes, exactly.

[Alison Russell]

Y. Exactly.

[Amanda Doyle]

For so long. So we have to stop that shit.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Hello friends. As you know, back to school season meaning back to crazy bananas. Life season is officially here. And speaking of bananas and over scheduling, I've been leaning hard on my Whole Foods Market runs right about now to keep everything on track. Between packing lunches, planning quick dinners in the 13 minutes we have together, and just trying to stay sane during busy weeks, they've seriously come through. One thing that's been a total game changer is the365 by Whole Foods Market brand. I started picking up their frozen waffles and breakfast sausage and all kinds of things like that for the hectic mornings and this is like magic because the kids get a good breakfast, we all get out the door on time. It's a win win win. And for lunches they have organic granola bar multi packs and they have reduced sugar, juice boxes, bagged apples. All the things that are fast, easy and you feel good for them to be eating. Explore so many ways to save on back to school finds.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Amanda Doyle]

What'S the first moment that you felt like? I am a child who survived being raised by a white supremacist psychological, sexual physical abuser to becoming what you Are now. Which I guess you're both things all the time. But how did you fucking do this?

[Alison Russell]

Because my. My little brother and my niece and nephew and a number. And music, of course. Art, of course. The magic and the mystery of art. Even with my mom, even though we had a deeply troubled. And have a deeply troubled relationship, I was able to feel love through listening to her music. Like, one of my earliest childhood memories was. I think I was on a visit from the foster home. Cause I would have weekly weekend visits with her. I can't remember if it was every weekend. Maybe it was every other weekend. But she wasn't allowed to be alone with me. So we would go to my grandmother's apartment. And she had this gorgeous upright piano with the kind of like very Victorian curvy legs of the piano, sort of curlicued. And I remember sitting under there and watching my mom's feet on the piano. And she was playing along. Actually, Joni Mitchell is her favorite artist. You know, been listening to Joanie since I was in utero with my mom.

[Amanda Doyle]

No way.

[Alison Russell]

And she was playing along to Ladies of the Canyon and a deeper cut, a song called For Free, which is Joni's singing about a busker and how nobody's paying attention because they're not famous. And she's off stroking the Star Maker machinery. But really she just wants to go jam with this beautiful musician who's playing clarinet on the street for free. You know, I slept last night in a good hotel Went shopping today for juice the wind rushed around in the dirty town Children let out from the school this gorgeous melody. And at the end there's this beautiful clarinet solo as she's. You know, I heard his refrain as the signal changed. He was playing really good for free. And she crosses the street and goes on with her life. And then this beautiful clarinet solo comes out of it. And I remember my mom singing along and hearing the sound of the clarinet for the first time and being like. Like electrified by that sound. Like, what is that sound? You know? And my mom, I remember asking later, what was that? And she said, it's a clarinet. You know, that was the clarinet. And that imprinted on me. And then all at the mystery and the magic of all those, you know, full circle later of being invited by Brandi into the magical circle of the Joanie Jam, you know, and playing clarinet on stage with Joanie and having her single.

[Amanda Doyle]

What did she say to you?

[Alison Russell]

Alison Russell, the most beautiful Claire Heffler ever. You know, just this sweet hyperbolic thing.

[Amanda Doyle]

She said, so Just in case you didn't hear it. Pod Squad. What happened? Is under the piano, she's holding Joanie. Okay. Then she hears the clarinet. Fast forward to. She's on stage at the Gorge. Was it.

[Alison Russell]

It was the Gorge.

[Amanda Doyle]

Joni Mitchell and playing the clarinet. And Joni Mitchell says, alison Russell, the most beautiful clarinet player I have ever heard.

[Alison Russell]

Or something like, most beautiful clarinet ever. You know, it was just like a sweet. She demanded that I take a solo during Young at Heart. And you just. Joanie asks you to do something, you do it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Alison Russell]

And try not to mess it up. You know, it was just such a sweet, surreal moment. And when you say, how do you get from there to there? Well, it's all of it all at once. Because we're always still. I'm still that little girl that loved just that sound and imprinted on me. And I was always. I feel like in some ways, I think we all have a birthright. Every human on the planet, living now, we are. The improbability of. Of us being who we are in this time. The fact that we come from, no matter what our heritage, what our lineage, what our set of challenges or privileges, we all come from long lines of survivors. And that is our human birthright is this resilience.

[Amanda Doyle]

I was very moved by a theme in the Returner, which feels very much like part of my recovery, which is it feels like this big love story to Embodiment.

[Alison Russell]

Nailed it.

[Amanda Doyle]

And I don't know if it's just because whatever I'm doing feels like everyone's talking about that, but can you talk a little bit about this song, All Without Within?

[Alison Russell]

Yes. I love that. That's the by far the sexiest song on the record.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, my God, I fucking love that song.

[Alison Russell]

And that's Wendy and Lisa, y', all, singing with me. And they joined us, our rainbow coalition of chosen family that we've been growing together over the last two years. We made the Returner in six days.

[Amanda Doyle]

And it was over.

[Alison Russell]

It was 15 women and one non binary identifying gender. Expansive. Amazing. Divine being and three chosen brothers. Ten songs, six days. And we recorded it in LA at the old A and M studio, which is now Henson's Studio, presided over by Kermit the Frog, which gave me a lot of joy, but means a lot to you.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Alison Russell]

And so that is, in fact where Joni recorded Blue and Burton Stark. It's where Carole King recorded Tapestry. It's where they did We Are the World, We Are the Children, with Tina Turner and Cyndi Lauper blowing the roof. Off the place. You know, it's Shaka's made records. The good ghosts in that place are just outrageous. So it was like a family affair all around. You can't make a record in six days without having complete trust with everyone that you're engaged in creative communion with. It's a trustful exercise, basically. And. And it only works if everybody lets go and jumps together, you know, and falls together.

[Amanda Doyle]

You can feel that. You can feel that in terms of healing. Because the first album ends with I think, where are all the joyful motherfuckers?

[Alison Russell]

Which is.

[Amanda Doyle]

Which is the joyful motherfuckers. Joyful motherfuckers, right? And it feels like you could play your records back to back and it would be like, where are they? And then the Returner's like, here they are. Here's all the joyful motherfuckers picked up.

[Alison Russell]

On that because that's exactly right. Because this is the kind of nerd I am. I am obsessed with multi volume journeys in literature.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, me too.

[Alison Russell]

And in music. And for me, an album is a journey. Like I feel about an album the way some people feel about a film. I understand, understand, and I accept that the vast majority of people will be streaming and they will never listen to the record in the very deeply nerdy, exact order that we agonized over.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alison Russell]

Planned over. But when people do, it's the greatest thing ever. I will say that to anyone listening. And some of you may have never taken a journey with a record, and I understand that and I don't condemn at all. But I promise you, if you do take the journey with an album that was written in that way, because not everybody wants to make albums in that way anymore, actually. Right. And. And some artists never did. Some artists were always more single driven. But for nerds like me and Brandi Carlisle, for example, and Joni Mitchell and Prince and Tracy Chapman and the Indigo Girls, if you take the entire. And Odetta, if you take. And Mavis Staples if you take the entire journey with the record. It is so much more rewarding when you have the time, because I also know how precious time is. It's so difficult for someone to sit down for 45 minutes and do nothing, so to speak. Right. Of course you're doing something very active when you're listening. But I know it's hard for us to justify taking that time in our busy lives. But not only is the Returner its own narrative arc, although not linear, it is connected to Outside Child. But anyone can take the journey with either album. But they are in fact, Outside Child is volume one, broadly the past. The Returner is volume two. It's the present. It's re embodiment. It's stealing joy from the teeth of turmoil. It's loving on your people who love you back. It's loving on the people that don't love you back, but not allowing them to derail your joy. And it is just being here now.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, two more things. You fall in love with jt. What a love bug. Everyone who meets JT Is in love with JT don't get Catherine Carlisle started on jt.

[Alison Russell]

They have the most beautiful friendship. I love their friendship.

[Amanda Doyle]

I can tell. I had this secret idea of when women are queer women and then they marry men. I wonder if they just want to wear flags all day, every day to signal to the world I'm still queer. And then I swear to God, Allison is wearing a rainbow wristband and I'm like, maybe they do because you want powered wristband.

[Alison Russell]

It's my anti bigotry wristband on stage and it makes me feel strong as I live in Tennessee now, y', all, we're battling some medieval stuff over here, so. But we're winning. And Gloria Johnson is our next senator. Just putting that out there.

[Amanda Doyle]

This is airing before election day.

[Alison Russell]

Incredible.

[Amanda Doyle]

We have everybody here.

[Alison Russell]

Get to the point.

[Amanda Doyle]

Polls. Why should Tennessee show up for Gloria Johnson?

[Alison Russell]

Tell us that she is who she says she is. She has been showing up for community since she was a teacher. As a representative, she's risking her seat as a representative. She is a shoe in to win again for Knoxville as a representative in the House. But we are in a crisis situation in Tennessee. We have essentially a hijacked people's house here. Only 32% of registered voters voted. This so called, so called GOP, so called supermajority. I say so called because they're not behaving in any way like small government Republicans, which is what I used to think the GOP was. Here in Tennessee, we have bad actors in office trying to ex unlawfully expel lawmakers because they are young and black and standing up for their constituents, like brother Justin Jones, Representative Jones and Representative Pearson. Representative Jones from right here in my riding in 52nd district here in Nashville. And Representative Pearson from Memphis. They tried to expel Gloria too, but she pointed out since she was a white woman, one of the openly racist Republicans, you know, allowed her to stay with one vote. And. And of course, both Representative Jones and Representative Pearson were reelected by a landslide. And they've become known now nationally as the Tennessee Three, because they were standing up for our kids, for our community, for all Tennesseans, demanding a sensible response, any response to the carnage of gun violence.

[Amanda Doyle]

I have thought of you so much in your activism for sensible gun reform. When I think about your story and about being a kid where school was your safe place. I was a teacher, and so I know that my classroom, for a lot of little ones was the only safe place that they had.

[Alison Russell]

Correct.

[Amanda Doyle]

They came to school for safety. They did not go home for safety. They came to school for safety. It was the one sanctuary that they had. And so when I think now about how that is not even true anymore for children, school was. Was a sanctuary for you. Correct?

[Alison Russell]

Sanctuary. And you have touched upon something here that I've been trying to explain to people and to explain to people back home in Canada who keep asking, when are you coming home? You know, when the next wave of legislative terrorism rocks us here in Tennessee. And I just tell them, we can't. I can't show my daughter that I'm running away from fascism. We don't run away from fascism. We stop it. We surround it with love and we overwhelm it and we vote it out. That's what we do. Because we still do have a democracy. And when I think about exactly what you said, Glenn Inev, that my child. I've been able to break cycles of abuse in our home, in our personal lives, and yet my daughter wakes from nightmares, has a lot of the trauma responses that I experienced from my abusive home as a child. In her case, it is from fear of being shot to death at school. It is from the active shooter drill where they didn't tell the kids or the teachers that it was a drill because they've determined they'll save more children When. Not if an active shooter gets into the building. When. Because for almost three years now, the number one cause of untimely death for our babies, for our children and youth, is gun violence. You know, and to have blanket in action here in Tennessee, where we just lost six beautiful humans in our community. At the Covenant School, we watched the absolute grotesque mockery of a special session where these lawmakers who claim to care about families and family values mocked Covenant moms. The school was called Covenant, where. Where this horrific gun violence took place. Mocking those moms. These are women who are white, Christian, seemingly straight. Most of them have voted Republican their whole lives. These are who they're supposed to actually care about, Right? And they were mocking them, saying the most horrific. I mean, it can't Be unseen.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Alison Russell]

And as awful as that is what I have realized and why it is so important that people vote, because that does not represent Tennessee. There are people who are having their religious beliefs manipulated to fear their neighbors that they don't have to fear. They don't need to fear drag queen story time. If they don't like drag queen story time, they don't have to go. But they don't need to fear it.

[Amanda Doyle]

What must be so interesting for you as a child who was raised and abused by a white supremacist steeped in all of this shit.

[Alison Russell]

Yep.

[Amanda Doyle]

Saved by a queer girl.

[Alison Russell]

Yep.

[Amanda Doyle]

To now be fighting religion, claiming that the queer people are the ones who are abusing. It all goes back to Sinead o'. Connor. It all goes back to this thing.

[Alison Russell]

It is the same projection and demonizing of the actual freedom fighters, Truth tellers, prophets in our time.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right.

[Alison Russell]

And Gloria is a truth teller. She is exactly who she says she is. I've been lucky enough to know her for about three years now. I met her actually through the music world because she just shows up in the community. She shows up to concerts, she shows up to volunteer drives. You see her at the supermarket, you see her in the park. And I think probably on some level, the last thing she wanted to do was have to run for senator. But she's doing it for all Tennesseans.

[Amanda Doyle]

As we end here. As someone who is healing through re embodiment, through landing in my body for the first time, to feeling everything that is without finally within. To understanding, like feeling a touch or feeling even hunger or feeling rain as like a freaking resurrection.

[Alison Russell]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like just experiencing life in my body for the first time. I have so many friends who don't get to or don't feel yet like they can have that returner experience because of trauma, because of abuse, because all of that. That is what's in their body. And disassociation.

[Alison Russell]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Has been their survival mechanism for their whole lives. Because you have so much trauma in your background and you are experiencing I through your music, it feels very much like you're experiencing re embodiment as healing.

[Alison Russell]

How? Well, for me, I think it took a long time and motherhood helped vastly. In my case, that was the first time I ever loved my body was when I got and I was terr. I never thought I would be a mother. Never, never, never. Certainly never thought I would bear a child. You know, maybe if I fell in love with a woman who had a child or, you know, I could do that. Or. But I never thought I would physically do that. And Ida was a miracle. You know, I was on birth control. She's a birth control pill baby. Birth control pills for seven years and they never failed me. And I never skipped one either. Anyone listening with a uterus? Birth control pills are not 100%. They are 99.999. And Ida's that 0000111 what have you. And it was shocking at first. You know, JT and I had been together for seven years at that point, and I was just so terrified of paying for it, any of what I lived. And I felt that somehow I would be doomed to do that. But because JT is so stable and has such a strong, gorgeous inner goddess and a beautiful, happy family, that's not abusive. I just thought, well, if I'm completely undone by this, I know that he will be there for this child. And it was the most miraculous thing of all of the kind of self evisceration that I was in the habit of doing, of just continually being cruel to myself, because that's what I was used to, you know, and I've talked about this with a lot of other survivors and I feel like, you know, an eating disorder is just part two of after you've been sexually abused like that, it just inevitably follows. And, you know, so I had done. I had had various disordered eating patterns my whole life. It all just stopped when I was pregnant with Ida. It was like this miracle of happy endorphins and, I don't know, a flood of oxytocin and joyful feelings, you know, and love for this little alien that was, that was growing and also fascination. But I felt connected. It was like my mitochondria woke up and said, hey, hey. You're part of this unbroken line of badass bitches who just make life on earth. Like you're, you're fine, you know, you're fine, you're okay. And that was the beginning that has helped me move through some of the trauma in my body. Dancing, playing music, being in community with other women has been so important for me. Just women that I feel safe with. When I was 16, I moved in. I ran away from home at 15 and was kind of itinerant and hiding in Persephone's basement and the cemetery and staying up all night at the croissant Royale, playing chess with the old guys, or going and hiding out in the Marie Rendimonte Cathedral, little cathedral that was close to my alternative high school that was across the street from McGill and going there in the winter and sitting in a pew and falling asleep. But when I was 16, I got this terrible, terrible marketing job and I moved in with three other women that I went to high school with, who are my dear beloved friends to this day. Allie and Siobhan and Kim and our friends and all of our other, you know, friends just learning how to live in the world would, would come by and we called the apartment the womb, you know, and it was. That was such a healing time. They were the first people other than Persephone that I disclosed to, you know, they. We just learned so much from each.

[Amanda Doyle]

Other, what love feels like, what love to feel loved.

[Alison Russell]

We did that for each other. We became, you know, and I think that that is such a universally, I think for everyone I know who identifies in any way as queer has had a version of that. Where you you at? Some, except for the very, very, very lucky few who were fully, fully accepted by their families. But I don't, I don't know many people who identify as queer who are fully accepted by their families in those developmental years.

[Amanda Doyle]

We know a couple, but they're our children.

[Alison Russell]

Yeah, they're our children. We're exactly fifth generation, I should say that caveat of, you know, people over 30 now, you know.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Alison Russell]

And that. And isn't that beautiful? Because we're healing like, again, it goes back to breaking these cycles of trauma.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, Pod Squad, if you are in need of a beginning of. Of returning to your body, I do recommend Allison's latest album, the Returner. I feel like it's an anthem to that, to that reclamation of being here now, of feeling, of knowing that you also have the right, the God given birthright of experiencing joy and love and peace inside your body in this brief corporeal experience.

[Alison Russell]

And I think about what Andrea Gibson was talking about, how brief it is. And that's the beauty. And we, I won't say, waste so much time, but we are embroiled for so much of our lives, I think so many of us in not feeling okay in our bodies or needing to escape our bodies and the joy of returning to our bodies and accepting all of the pain and the scars and the history written there is beautiful. Who fooled us into thinking that the unmarked page was more beautiful, you know?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Alison Russell]

Who did that?

[Amanda Doyle]

That's so beautiful.

[Glennon Doyle]

I just want to say I am stunned by your music. I'm stunned at just how profound you are. I just am so grateful to know you. I'm so grateful that our Tishy got to eat dinner with you.

[Alison Russell]

She's incredible, y'. All. If you don't have Tish's new singles, you gotta get it. It's so beautiful. Produced by our beautiful Brandi Carlisle as well.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, well, she came home and said after that weekend in Nashville, I said, so tell me your favorite part. And I thought she was going to say the red carpet or whatever. And she said, I think my favorite part was talking to Allison at dinner.

[Alison Russell]

That's the best award I'll ever be given. Are you kidding? Oh my gosh.

[Amanda Doyle]

We love you, Alison Russell. We will see you backstage next time with some burgers and fries and Ida and Tish. And you just keep going. We're in your corner forever.

[Alison Russell]

I love y'. All. I'm so grateful. Thank you for having me today.

[Glennon Doyle]

Same, same, same.

[Amanda Doyle]

Bye POD Squad. See you next time.

[Alison Russell]

Bye POD Squad.

[Amanda Doyle]

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe? Subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things. Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz SA.