How to Create Your Own Belonging with Michelle Zauner (Best Of)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How to Create Your Own Belonging with Michelle Zauner (Best Of)"

Podcast Information:

• Title: We Can Do Hard Things
• Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
• Guest: Michelle Zauner
• Release Date: June 15, 2025
• Description: Hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle, We Can Do Hard Things delves into the everyday struggles and triumphs of life. The show fosters honest conversations about challenging topics, aiming to create a space where listeners can feel less alone and more empowered.

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Introduction to Michelle Zauner (02:04)

Glennon Doyle introduces Michelle Zauner, renowned as the lead singer and guitarist of the indie pop band Japanese Breakfast. Michelle is celebrated for her critically acclaimed albums, including Psychopomp, Soft Sounds From Another Planet, and Jubilee, the latter earning her two Grammy nominations. Beyond music, Michelle authored the bestselling memoir Crying in H Mart, which has been adapted for the screen by MGM's Orion Pictures.

Notable Quote:

"Crying in H Mart is so flipping beautiful. It's like your music invites me into the singular ache." – Glennon Doyle [03:29]

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Michelle's Early Life and Family Dynamics (05:03 - 07:35)

Michelle delves into her upbringing, highlighting the complex relationship with her mother. Her mother, who immigrated from Korea, exhibited a form of love that was far from traditionally affectionate. Instead, she was critical and culturally conditioned, aiming to prepare Michelle for a successful future, albeit in a manner that was challenging during Michelle's formative years.

Notable Quote:

"Her love was tougher than tough. It saw what was best for me 10 steps ahead and didn't care if it hurt like hell in the meantime." – Glennon Doyle [07:35]

Michelle contrasts her mother's parenting style with that of her mother-in-law, who embodies the "mommy mom" archetype—warm, supportive, and emotionally expressive. This stark difference fueled a tumultuous teenage relationship between Michelle and her mother.

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Navigating Cultural and Personal Identity (09:25 - 16:49)

Michelle discusses the interplay between her Korean heritage and American upbringing, expressing the struggles of feeling fragmented and constantly balancing dual identities. She emphasizes how her mother's expectations and cultural background influenced her path, pushing her towards disciplines like piano and Korean language school, which Michelle initially resisted but later came to value.

Notable Quote:

"I always compare my mom to my husband's mom, who is big time mommy mom. And whenever I got like fired from a job... she could say, like, that's just so typical of the man." – Michelle Zauner [06:06]

This section also touches on Michelle's sensitivity and how ordinary experiences profoundly impact her creative process. She shares anecdotes about finding deep meaning in everyday words and moments, which translates into her music and writing.

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Sensitivity, Mental Health, and Personal Struggles (24:44 - 33:27)

Michelle opens up about her sensitivity, describing it as being deeply affected by ordinary and intense emotional moments alike. She connects this trait to her artistic endeavors, where she channels these emotions into her work. Additionally, Michelle candidly discusses her mental health journey, including a severe breakdown during her high school years and ongoing fears related to her mental well-being.

Notable Quote:

"I've always been able to source everything from, you know, either from my genes or the way that I was raised. I feel like it's all their problems." – Michelle Zauner [40:13]

Michelle explains how her past experiences, especially the loss of her mother, have shaped her approach to mental health and her reliance on maintaining a busy and purposeful life to avoid succumbing to depression.

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Understanding Belonging and Identity (33:27 - 43:42)

The conversation shifts to the concept of belonging, with Michelle articulating her sense of not fully fitting into any single category due to her biracial identity. She expresses feeling most at home within the artistic community, where her uniqueness is celebrated. Michelle reflects on the challenges of creating a sense of belonging when societal expectations often force individuals into predefined roles.

Notable Quote:

"I feel whole in being an artist. I feel whole when I'm playing on a stage and have people gathered to watch me do something uniquely my own." – Michelle Zauner [34:00]

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Gender, Masculinity, and Interpersonal Relationships (43:42 - 56:48)

Michelle shares her complicated feelings towards masculinity, admiring the confidence it brings yet recognizing its limitations, especially in caregiving roles. She contrasts her father's straightforward, often blunt approach to caretaking with her mother's more nuanced, albeit critical, care for her. This contrast highlights the societal conditioning of gender roles and the impact it has on personal relationships.

Notable Quote:

"I wish I had the courage to take on things that felt kind of barred from me. Like, even just having a lot of young boys given toolkits, and I never had that." – Michelle Zauner [47:47]

Michelle emphasizes the importance of balancing masculine and feminine traits to foster healthier interpersonal dynamics and personal growth.

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Love, Understanding, and Parental Relationships (56:48 - 60:59)

The discussion culminates in exploring the nature of love and understanding within relationships, particularly between parents and children. Michelle contemplates whether love can exist without understanding, ultimately concluding that while they are intertwined, deep friendships and familial bonds can sustain love even amidst misunderstandings.

Notable Quote:

"There is no love or no love. They're both like, on this slider of, like, I understand a deep part of you, but I also... love you in another way." – Michelle Zauner [55:56]

She reflects on her mother's unwavering love, acknowledging that while her mother may not have always understood her, the love remained constant. Michelle also discusses the concept of withholding certain truths as an act of love, a strategy her mother employed to protect her.

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Conclusion (60:59)

The episode wraps up with the hosts expressing gratitude to Michelle Zauner for her candid and heartfelt insights. They underscore the importance of understanding and creating belonging, both individually and collectively.

Notable Quote:

"It's healing and caretaking. It's just a community, and we all bring something." – Glennon Doyle [53:45]

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Key Takeaways:

• Complex Parental Relationships: Michelle's relationship with her parents, especially her mother, was shaped by cultural differences and differing parenting styles, leading to both challenges and personal growth.
• Navigating Identity: Being biracial presented unique challenges in forming a cohesive sense of self, leading Michelle to find belonging within the artistic community.
• Sensitivity and Mental Health: Michelle's heightened sensitivity influences her creative work and her approach to mental health, emphasizing the importance of balance and self-care.
• Gender Roles: The conversation highlights the impact of societal conditioning on gender roles, advocating for a balanced integration of masculine and feminine traits.
• Love and Understanding: Michelle explores the nuanced relationship between love and understanding, particularly within familial bonds, suggesting that love can persist even amidst a lack of complete understanding.

Overall, this episode offers a profound exploration of belonging, identity, and the intricate dynamics of parental relationships, all through the lens of Michelle Zauner's personal experiences and artistic journey.

Transcript

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We're going to explain to you right away why we're a little extra sweaty today, and that is because our guest today is Michelle Zauner. Michelle Zauner is best known as a singer and guitarist who creates dreamy shoegaze inspired indie pop under the name Japanese Breakfast. She has won acclaim from major music outlets around the world for releases like Psychopomp and Soft Sounds From Another Planet, and her most recent album, Jubilee, earned two Grammy nominations for Best New Artist and Best Alternative Music Album. Her first book, Crying in H Mart, is the book I have given to the most people. Yeah, is one of my favorite memoirs of all time and is a New York Times bestseller. She's currently adapting the memoir for the screen for MGM's Orion pictures. Okay, Michelle Zahner, I know that you're an icon and the world is obsessed with you, but we have loved you for a very, very long time. Since the beginning. Okay? We have three children, two of them Write the music columns for their high school and their college and they. So music is a really big deal in our family. And since Psychopomp, like, since the beginning, our house has been full of your.

[Amanda Doyle]

Voice every car ride.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Michelle Zauner]

Wow. What an honor.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then one day, we were in this little indie bookstore in our town, and I remember walking by a shelf in Chase, our oldest said, that is Michelle Zahner's book, Crying in H Mart. And I don't know, I mean, I knew from your lyrics that this book was going to be good, but holy shit. Crying in H Mart is so flipping beautiful. It's like your music, I don't like music that's, like, too cheerful. Like, trying to trick me that the world is not shit. And I don't like music that's too depressing, like, trying to kill me by only focusing that the world is shit. And your music, it invites me into the singular ache. And then it, like, widens to everybody every time. It's like this alone together, feeling, listening to you, which is the same as your memoir.

[Amanda Doyle]

So.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hi, Michelle. Thanks for being with us and for all your work. This has been a great interview. Bye.

[Amanda Doyle]

Bye.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you so much for your time. Bye, Michelle.

[Michelle Zauner]

Thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm Glennon. This is Abby, this is Amanda.

[Michelle Zauner]

Hi. I'm so delighted to get to chat with you all. I feel like I always was like, who is Glennon Doyle? She just lives on the New York Times best selling. I was like, who is this woman? She's incredible.

[Amanda Doyle]

And the reason why you know that is because you saw your book there for 60 weeks.

[Michelle Zauner]

I met my neighbor.

[Glennon Doyle]

We live together.

[Amanda Doyle]

There she is.

[Michelle Zauner]

We've been neighbors for some time. And I'm so excited to put, you know, a person to the name.

[Glennon Doyle]

Us, too. So you are a rock star, award winning writer, and all of this artistic brilliance has been brewing and building in you since childhood. But it really took off after the death of your mother. And the love story between you two is just epic. It just moved me so deeply. She moved me so deeply. And you say that she was not a mommy mom. Pod squad. Listen to what Michelle says. A mommy mom is okay. A mommy mom is a mom who takes an interest in everything her kid has to say, even when there is no actual way she gives a shit. Who whisks you away to the hospital when you complain of the slightest ailment? Who tells you they're just jealous if someone makes fun of you, I did that yesterday. Or, you always look beautiful to me, even if you don't. Or I love this when you give them a piece of crap for Christmas. So, Michelle, that was not your mom.

[Michelle Zauner]

That was not my mom at all. I think a lot of my friends had mommy moms. And it took me a really long time to understand my mother's affection. And I think a large part of that were, you know, cultural differences. My mom grew up in Korea and didn't immigrate to the States until after I was born. And so she was really learning a lot. I think I just didn't understand that type of affection until I was older. There was a lot of behind the scenes kind of action, but she was very, very critical. And it created a very ambitious and self aware person in me in a way that I really value now, but was certainly at a young age, very difficult. I always compare my mom to my husband's mom, who is big time mommy mom. And whenever I got like fired from a job, Fran, who's Peter's mom, would say, like, oh my God, like, that's just so typical of the man. They don't know what they're losing and all this stuff. My mom, when I got fired from my waitressing job that I had worked at for a year, and I was, you know, really upset because I was like, I was their best server. I can't believe they did that was just like, well, Michelle, anyone can carry a tray. It's just like very, very brutal. But it made me a much stronger person. But, you know, growing up with that was like, pretty challenging, I think, to be a young person.

[Glennon Doyle]

So you said her love was tougher than tough. It saw what was best for you 10 steps ahead and didn't care if it hurt like hell in the meantime. That's like the opposite of American parenting. I mean, there's something that's really important about that.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think that I hope that when I have a child that I will find a good balance between both methods of parenting because I think that both are really important. And I can't imagine being a parent and figuring out the right way to do that. For instance, like, I went to piano lessons since I was like 5 years old and I went to Korean language school. And I every Friday when all of my friends were enjoying their weekends. And I hated it. And my mom would never let me quit because she was like, you have to practice piano 30 minutes every day. You're going to really regret not learning the language. And I hated it so much. And now as an adult, those are the two things that I find myself really wanting to excel at. And all of the things that she encouraged me to do are things that she was so right about were things that I was going to really regret not focusing on during this, like, really formative time. But I don't know if a mommy mom had gotten that sort of, you know, feedback from their kid. If they're like, if you don't want to do it, like, that's fine. I think there would be some regret there, too, that, you know, at that age, you do kind of need a little bit of a push to, like, do some things that you don't want to do. So I think it's a really tough balance for any parent. And I don't know exactly what the right way is, but I can see the sort of benefits and consequences of both styles of parenting.

[Abby Wambach]

This might be a tangent, but do you ever think about whether that's a chicken or an egg situation, the piano, and learning Korean? Like, do you think it is because she prioritized those so much that you're drawn to them, or is it.

[Michelle Zauner]

Oh, yeah, all the time. Some days I'm like, maybe if my mother was so encouraging about me pursuing the arts that I wouldn't have wanted it so badly, or I wouldn't have had to prove to myself time and time and again that this was what I really wanted, and I wouldn't have ended up doing it. Maybe it was, like, part of her large ploy all along to make sure.

[Abby Wambach]

She was 10 steps ahead.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, she was 10 steps ahead. Maybe she was like, if I, like, withhold this, like, from her, then she'll have to really work hard for it. And that is what you need and a way to succeed at that kind of thing. And along with a lot of luck. Yeah, I think about that all the time. I mean, I think also, like, whenever someone dies, you really romanticize, like, the things, be it positive or negative, that they kind of leave behind. Like, I remember I would hate it when my mom would, like, badger me to wear sunscreen. Especially in, like, the 90s when that kind of, like, information wasn't as prioritized or whatever. I'd be like, why do I have to wear sunscreen? I'm 10 years old. I want to, like, hang out in the sun. I want to get a tan. And now my husband is always, like, getting badgered by me to, like, put sunscreen on and that kind of thing. And instead of being like, oh, maybe you're, like, being overbearing. I'm like, oh, that's your mom. Like, you're just being like your mom. So, yeah, I think it's kind of a sweet thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

So did you say your mom wanted you to take the piano lesson? Because wasn't your interest in music a source of tension between the two of you? Was it the kind of music because your mom didn't want you to be into music? Is that correct?

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah. This is the thing I, like, do not understand with Asian parents. A lot of the time, most of them will force you to learn an instrument, but God forbid you do something creative with it, you know? Yeah. I don't know why it's so essential to play piano or violin in Asian culture, but I think a big thing was I never liked piano. I was, like, very impatient and not very good at it. And I think that when I was 15, I started begging for a guitar because it was so much cooler. And my mom was kind of like, I've dropped thousands of dollars on this piano lessons. You never pay attention to why. Why are we gonna start doing guitar lessons now? And I get it. Because I feel like, you know, even with friends of mine, I'm like, this is a fleeting interest. It's, like, hard as, like, a loved one to just be like, do you really, like, you know, totally need to start a crop garden or whatever, or, like, skateboarding in your 30s? Like, give it up. But, yeah, I mean, I think that she just was like, I've watched you discard so many passions, like, you probably watched your kids go through all the time, that I think it was hard for her to be supportive of this thing at what she felt was, like, a very crucial age, which was, like, 16, and things are ramping up for college, and you have to really double down to get your life together, that she was just like, we've given you everything, and I don't think you really know what's at the other side of living a life of an artist. And she felt like it was her duty to kind of protect me from that. And I totally understand it. But at the time, I was like, you are like a tower of evil keeping me from. From my true calling, you know? And so that was sort of the beginning of our tumultuous, like, teenage puberty years.

[Amanda Doyle]

So there were a bunch of years that you said you kind of missed each other. Anger, separation. You were feisty. She was baffled. Tell us about that time and how it kind of impacted your relationship.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's no surprise that I grew up with two extremely loud, opinionated, independent parents, and they were so shocked when, you know, their kid like, doubled down on that in her own personality. My mom, like, grew up in Korea, married a white guy, like, moved, you know, away from her family, hardly spoke the language, and, you know, took off and led a life of her own. And that was, you know, pretty rebellious and independent on her part. So, yeah, I had that kind of spirit in me. And, you know, I grew up in the Pacific Northwest in Eugene, Oregon, in a small college town that had very little diversity and really wanted to strike out on my own path. And there's, like, a really wonderful music community in that town. It's a very artsy, creative kind of town. And so I was naturally sort of drawn to that. And it was the only thing that sort of felt like it had meaning in my life around the age of 15 or 16, when you're, like, 17, so full of, like, these really intense emotions. And I just knew that that was sort of what I wanted to do at the time. And, you know, around that time, my grades started suffering, and I was saying crazy things like, I don't know if I want to go to college. And my mom was like, this is World War Three.

[Glennon Doyle]

She's out of control. She's out of control.

[Michelle Zauner]

And I think she just tried to double down and trying to at least, like, protect me from that and make sure I went to college. And neither one of my parents went to college. So it was very, very important that. Here's this woman who feels like I've given this person every opportunity I never had, and she's really bungling this, and I need to fix it. And that was really hard for me. And her love was very. She could be very critical. And I had never seen other parents sort of so brutally honest like that about just. You know, she hated everything I wore, and there was no. Just like, oh, this is a facial. Grow out of it. It's just like, why do you torture me wearing this ugly shit all the time? We just really butt heads. We were two very strong women that were not gonna, like, lay it down. And it went on like that until I went to college. And I think she sort of felt like, okay, my job has come to a certain kind of end. You know, she's out of my house, and I did everything that I could, and now she's on her own. And I was kind of like, how do I do laundry?

[Abby Wambach]

Wait a minute. Just one more thing. Just one more thing. Can I teach you how to do laundry?

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, yeah, like. And I think I just was like, oh, wow, mom does a lot, you know? And I was a young, confused feminist. My mom was a homemaker and I think as a teenager I sort of looked down on that and I just didn't respect her in a way. And it wasn't until I went to college that I began to see all of this invisible labor that she was like talking about and understood just how much she provided for our family in this way that we were very privileged to have. And how cruel it was to mean that all my life.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Amanda Doyle]

Even if you didn't know a ton about soccer going in, we made sure everyone felt welcome. We broke down the basics, shared some laughs, and created something that felt both fun and meaningful. Tune in on June 24th to hear all about our first Airbnb experience.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Michelle Zauner]

I've always like made this reference and I don't think it's ever gone well, but it's so important to me. But there's a scene in the Sopranos where Meadow and Carmela are fighting and Tony says to her, like, don't worry Carm, she'll return to you. And I feel like that's such a thing with a lot of mothers and daughters. I know a lot of mothers and daughters that sort of get to that place and you have to kind of go away in order to return to one another and really see each other for the first. And I think that was sort of what happened for us was like only until I was out of the house that she was able to sort of reflect on a lot of things and I was also able to reflect on a lot of things and we were sort of able to come together and also the age of being in your sort of early 20s. And finally I really felt like I saw her not just as mom, but like as a human being with agency and her own passions and her own desires. And I think she also felt that maybe this thing wasn't a passing phase because I kept with it and she could maybe start to see how important it was and see me in this sort of new light and so her saying that to me was so moving. It's such a strange thing to say to a person that you made, you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Know, that's why it was so incredible. It was like this moment to me when I read Aisha. It was this moment, like, where it felt like there was a magical shimmer around that moment where it was like a moment of individuation for the first time. Like, she looked at you like you had just appeared. Like, for the first moment, you weren't just a reflection of her, you were your own being. And she saw that for the first time. What a beautiful thing to say. Oh, the problem this whole time is just that I've never met anybody like you.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yep.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And I had the opposite reaction when I read that. I had the wind knocked out of me because I was like, oh, it feels so alienating. Like the person that's so connected to you feeling so distinct and remote from you. You know, if your mom doesn't even intuitively get you, how is anyone going to get you?

[Michelle Zauner]

Wow. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

But then I hear what you're saying. It's like for the first time, you weren't just something that existed to oppose her wishes.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

You existed as your own being thing. It makes me think of the question, like, does love exist without understanding? In that moment where she was saying, oh, I've just never met anyone like.

[Glennon Doyle]

You.

[Abby Wambach]

That made me think, oh, she doesn't understand you, but maybe she was just understanding you for the first time.

[Michelle Zauner]

Well, I think that is a really beautiful interpretation that I haven't encountered. And, yeah, hearing that question, can love exist without understanding? My immediate response is, no. But then to look at that relationship, that is clearly untrue. I know that my mom loved me very deeply, but there was a lot of misunderstanding there. There was a real struggle for both of us to understand one another. And I think we certainly loved each other all along. But, yeah, there was not a lot of understanding. So, yeah, I think that my initial. My immediate response to that question is like, no, how can you love someone that you don't understand? But I think that I've had experiences where that's not the case.

[Glennon Doyle]

But can't you understand somebody, like, thematically without understanding the details? Like, she could have looked at you and suddenly understood, like, your switch from piano to guitar was like her switch from Korea to America, that your individuation was just like her individuation. There can be understanding without the details being the same, where she can respect woman to woman. Right.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

I also think.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. You can Tell.

[Amanda Doyle]

We've discussed before, we spent a lot of time talking about this because the family I grew up in, my parents, they often didn't understand me. But the way that they expressed that was in this critical way and in the way that this sentence for me felt when I read it is like, this curious way. I just never met somebody like you, rather than, where did you come from, Abby? You know, like, those are kind of very different situations. I want to talk a little bit about your sensitivity. You described yourself as so sensitive. I also live with a sensitive person. What does it mean to you?

[Michelle Zauner]

I think it means so many different things. I'm just deeply impacted by very ordinary things. I'm impacted by, obviously, the intense emotional stuff, but I'm also very moved by sort of ordinary circumstances. I think I've just always been that way. Things that normal people are supposed to sort of adapt to and adjust to bring on, like, sort of this monumental wave of feeling for me as I navigate them. I think my sensitivity as an artist can also be like, hearing the most, like, ordinary word. Like, the other day I watched an interview with Cate Blanchett where she talked about, like, when she got her Oscar nomination, the news of her Oscar nomination. They celebrated her with sheet cake and how that's a very American thing. And just, like, the word sheet cake was so evocative that I just, like, had to write it down because I was just like, that's such a moving image that, like, conjures so many different things. Or, like, the word Winnebago. Like, I think, like, a lot of people ask me, like, what, like, my creative process and is. It is, like, sometimes I, like, just hear those two, like, extremely ordinary American phrases or words or, like, proper nouns, and I'm just floored. I think, especially in music, you have, like, such a small word count that a word. Like, everyone. You hear sheet cake. And I just feel like you just see a sheet cake and it conjures, like, some very specific, like, childhood memory and place and taste. And I just feel like that is, like, part of. At least for me in my work, is just like, finding those moments like that where you're like, how can I use that to conjure a moment for many different people really quickly? And I think that's a lot of what we do as writers is pull on the strings of that for many different people. Or there are certain things that you just know are like, I know this is a very. I have my own personal attachment to this, but I have this intuition that it's going to Touch a lot of different people, too. And they could be all these collections of little details. Like, everyone has a certain connotation of neighborhood. TJ Maxx. That, for me, TJ Maxx was like, a major place for my. I was like, I'm like a holy ground for my mom. I think that sort of sensitivity allows me to think, like, this should belong here. And later, down the line, there will be maybe like a dozen people that are like, yeah, TJ Maxx is, like, moving in an important place or whatever. I mean, that's essentially what crying in H Mart is. I was crying in this grocery store and I was like, I bet other people have done this, you know? And, like, I need to share. There's, like, something really fun, funny, and really dark and really emotional and sad and moving about this phrase. And I think that sort of sensitivity is sort of what led me down my path. So I think that's a type of sensitivity. And then, I don't know, I just. Like, my feelings are just so easily hurt.

[Abby Wambach]

Then there's the other part, but it reminds me of that quote that there's either, either nothing's a miracle or everything is. And the sensitivity to be like, we live in a world with sheet cakes and Winnebagos and TJ Maxx's like. And everyone's walking around like it's normal.

[Glennon Doyle]

I can't stop thinking about shit.

[Abby Wambach]

It's a kind of miraculous way of living, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

And Winnebago, it, like, sounds like what it is. It's like an experience. I don't even know what a Winnebago is, but I know it's like an onomatopoeia. Yeah, it's an onomatopoeia. Yeah.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah. I feel like I hear that word and I'm like, gazing out at the Grand Canyon.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Through the window in the pie baker or something, eating a sheet cake. TJ Maxx dress like Winnebago and sheet cakes are kind of opposites anyway.

[Michelle Zauner]

They are. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Aren't they? Because sheet cake is also, like, very. And it's like, so cookie cutter. Like, this is what we do. This is our celebration baptism sheet cake promotion sheet cake.

[Amanda Doyle]

It brings me right back to, like, my 10th birthday. Like, and I see the candles on the cake, and I can taste it. My Aunt Sally made our sheet cake birthday birthday cake. So it's.

[Glennon Doyle]

And the only difference, it's kind of.

[Michelle Zauner]

Like, delicious, but also disgusting.

[Amanda Doyle]

There's like a hint of plastic.

[Glennon Doyle]

You know exactly what it's going to taste like every Time.

[Michelle Zauner]

But you want it. But you want it even though you don't.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Death, taxes, and sheet cake. That's very predictable.

[Glennon Doyle]

So, speaking of sensitivity, you. One of the things we have in common is that you also had a full mental breakdown in high school. I actually ended up in a mental hospital. I don't know if you actually were sent away.

[Michelle Zauner]

I wanted to. I was like, I need to go. We were about to go at one point in time, but my parents were afraid. My mom was afraid. Well, my dad probably was afraid, too, that it would show up on, like, a record or something, and that they were afraid that it would impact future opportunities. If you looked up, like, my medical records and saw I had been checked in somewhere. But I remember there being a moment where, like, we're like, she's got to go, and I wanted to go. I felt like I was going crazy. And that part was really hard for me to write. And I was worried, actually, that it didn't really come across like, what? And I think a lot of people probably go through this, but last minute, I ended up not going because they were afraid of, like, the 10 steps ahead when I'm applying.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, 10 steps ahead.

[Michelle Zauner]

Be a senator or something.

[Glennon Doyle]

Speaking of being sensitive to words, I heard in a podcast you said, I'm still afraid of my mental health.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I thought. She didn't say, I'm still afraid for my mental health. She said, I'm still afraid of my mental health, which is exactly how I feel. So can you tell me what you mean?

[Michelle Zauner]

That time in my life was just so out of my control. And I think as an adult, I've certainly learned ways to kind of navigate when those sorts of feelings come on. It still does feel out of my control. There are sometimes just when there is a deep depression I feel coming on. And I think as a teenager, I was, like, more prone to leaning into that, you know, so I'd be like, well, my body doesn't want to go to sleep right now, so I just wouldn't sleep. And, you know, I wasn't eating well. I wasn't taking care of myself. And now when I feel those kinds of, like, feelings come on, I do go out of my way to try to incorporate, like, positive, basic people. Things like exercise and, like, sun or whatever. All the stuff that drinking water, like, all the dumb things that you think, like, are for basic people, but are actually really crucial for every human being, and they are really onto something. I think I would just kind of, like, lean into listening to Elliot Smith and staying up till like 8 o' clock in the morning on those days. But I know that that is something in me and it's like something kind of like that is out of control and I am very afraid of it, you know, And a big thing is like I'm very nervous about. I didn't really talked about this, but I have a real fear of being away from my, my partner, my husband. I have a real fear of like being alone for a long period of time because I'm just very nervous about where like my mental health will go without someone sort of keeping me in check. And I don't know how much of it is, is rooted in that. And also just this real trauma of like losing a loved one and, and being so afraid that the one person that sort of keeps me on the rails, like won't something will happen to him. But yeah, I think it comes from that fear. And I've had moments where I've been alone for like a week or something, which is totally normal, you know, just to like for work or something, and felt like, oh, this is a little scary for me, but I have a better way of like handling it than I did when I was, when I was younger. And I think that that sort of mental breakdown kind of led me to know that I'm capable of those feelings and that's why I'm sort of always afraid. And when my mom died and it was finally just like now you have an extremely real reason to fall into deep pit of depression and never get out of it. I think that's sort of the reason why I reacted the way that I did when she died. I was just like, you have to get busy, you have to get a job, you have to get three jobs, you have to have projects afterwards. Because I knew that if I really let myself lean into that despair that I just would never crawl out of it again. I think.

[Glennon Doyle]

You know, I do know.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Michelle, you already mentioned that your mom is Korean, your father is a white American. You describe a really complicated relationship with belonging. When you would go to Korea, they would kind of stare at you and try to figure you out. And then in America, kids were much less subtle and would just say like, what are you? And so what does belonging mean to you? And with whom do you feel most belonging?

[Michelle Zauner]

Artists. I think that sort of like outsider feeling is something that a lot of creative people have in, in common. And I think in a way that when you write a book or when you make music or when you're involved in creating something, you're you're basically making some kind of like, home for yourself to be understood. And so over the years, especially the last, you know, few years that the book has come out and this sort of conversation has. Has been a big part of my life. I've met a lot of other biracial people who have a very sweet way of saying, you know, I don't feel like half Korean and half white. I feel like 100% Korean and 100% this other thing. And that is, I think, a really generous and sweet idea. But it's not something that sort of resonates with me at all. I feel very much like I've always had this kind of fragmented identity. And I think that my journey has been sort of about being okay with being divided in this way. I think that is a really big part of who I am and what I grew up with. And I think a big reason why I do what I do is because I feel whole in being an artist. I feel whole like when I and playing on a stage and I've gathered people into my house to come watch me do the thing that is so uniquely my own. And people have responded to that. So I think that that's where I feel the greatest sense of belonging is in a space that I've created for myself. Foreign.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

We have a conversation, ongoing conversation on this podcast where we are trying to figure out how do we know whether our personality is authentically us or whether our personality is just this manifestation of of our accumulated coping mechanisms and traumas. And I heard you say that much of your personality was developed in opposition to these stereotypes that were projected on you as an Asian American woman. So you never wanted to be seen as docile or agreeable or hyper feminine. And so you kind of over indexed on the masculine raucous kind of side. And you are not even sure whether that is your genuine personality. And it makes me wonder how can we figure out who we really are when so much of what we become is based on societal expectations that we actually have to reject. And so practically speaking, have you been able to determine what is authentically you? If so, how and when.

[Glennon Doyle]

And also, do you know who we are? Michelle, you've been talking to us for 30 minutes.

[Abby Wambach]

Send me an email. That would be great. I'd love to know.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, I don't know if that exists or like what that would look like if we weren't. I mean, that's what being a human being is, is being conditioned by things that happen to you. So I don't even know what, what like pure root of that we would be after. Because if we weren't conditioned by things, we. We wouldn't speak any language. We would just be primal beings, I guess. But I don't know. There's never been a world where that, that kind of like pure self exists. So I just, I don't really know. Men are also conditioned to be a certain way, and white people are conditioned to be a certain way. So to be fair, like, I. There's a part of me that wonders if I wasn't doing certain things in opposition to my expectations, like, what I would be like. But then I also know, like, both of my parents are really loud, unapologetic, not docile people either. I think that when I hit my 30s, like everything feels like my parents problem. Like, I guess I feel like I. I think everything that I somehow. Like when I hit my 30s, I became obsessed with thinking, like every single part of my personality, bad or good, could be attributed to my parents.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh my God, you did it 10 years earlier than I did. I'm right there now.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Michelle, I've said this 10 times on the podcast, but there's this New Yorker cartoon that came out recently and there's this dude laying on the couch in his therapist's office and he says, I had a complicated childhood, especially lately, and he's like 55.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For better or worse, I feel like I can source everything from, you know, either from my genes or the way that I was, I was raised. I feel like it's all their problems. But yeah, I don't know. I guess I'll never know. But I do think I didn't feel comfortable doing certain things that now that I'm older, I can recognize why. I mean, there's a lot of undoing that we have to do in our lives. And I think that it's really wonderful. Like, you know, as exhausting as like contemporary discourse can be, it really can be eye opening. I remember being in my teenage years and there is starting to be A dialogue about how women compete with one another and can be cruel to one another. And I remember like being very impacted and aware of my own internalized misogyny and how to, you know, how that exists in everybody and how to work on undoing that. And I still think that it's something that I have to work on all the time. I think it's something that everyone has to work on. For me in a creative field that can feel like there's not much space for all of us. It's hard to not be envious or jealous of other people in your position and have this sort of scarcity mentality. And so I think that sometimes, like, there's a really positive undoing of that. But when I was younger, like, I think especially because I was really drawn to sort of male dominated fields, it felt like in order to be taken seriously, you had to present in a certain sort of way. Mostly just to not invite like a certain kind of question. When I was younger, I wore a lot of like muscle teeth and I had like a very short haircut and I liked myself in that way. And I also like myself in this way. But yeah, now I feel like I'm sort of at a place in my life where I have the option to appear a certain way and not feel threatened by that. If that makes sense.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, it does. So you're talking a little bit about the masculine. And I was very grateful for how honest you were about your dad in the book.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

You talk about how you hadn't planned for your mom to be the one to die first. There was a feeling of like, we're not going to be an us anymore without her. She was the one that was the glue. There's this one line that you had about your dad which we read out loud, but you said talking to him was like explaining a movie to someone who was. Walked in on the last 30 minutes.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Talk to us about your dad. What did you mean by that line? And also just having listened to your lyrics for a long time, how do you feel about men in general? I have some feelings. I have some feelings and thoughts, but I just.

[Abby Wambach]

She says like it's a sidebar. Yeah, extra one.

[Michelle Zauner]

First question is, what did I mean by that line? I was really privileged in the way. I mean, I grew up with a. As an only child with a mother who was a homemaker. I spent so much time with my mom. She was kind of like my primary parent. And my father never had a father and he was the youngest son of a. Of a Single working mom, and he had a tough life. He was an abused child and a recovered drug addict. And I think when he turned his life around and became, like, a successful working adult, he really felt like he'd served his role. And I. And I think that I am very lucky to even have that in my life. But I don't think that he took. He just didn't take as much of an interest in me as my mother did. You know, I remember my dad actually telling me, I don't love you as much as your mom. And that being just like an insane, like, why do you need to tell me that?

[Abby Wambach]

Wait, he didn't love you as much as he loved your mom, or he didn't love you as much as your mom loved you?

[Michelle Zauner]

He didn't love me as much as he loved my mom. Oh, yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

That goes in the category of just.

[Abby Wambach]

Don'T ask, don't tell.

[Michelle Zauner]

My dad is just, like, such an open book, and maybe I get a lot of that from him. To go back to, like, blaming everything on your parents, but for better or for worse, he's the opposite of my mom. There's, like, no withholding nature to him. And so I think that sometimes that's, like, a very American concept, that you should always be yourself and you should always tell the truth and you should always let everything. And I think as I get older, I realize, like, that can actually be really harmful, and it can sometimes be like, the sort of easy way out, this sort of unburdening of. Of the truth all the time. Because there were a lot of things that I sort of wish that I. I didn't know about him as his daughter. So, yeah, that was just how I felt about him. What do I think about men? I mean, that's such a broad question. Like, I think I've. I've simultaneously been. I don't know. I have a great reverence for some men and a great disappointment and many, many others, you know, But I feel that way about. About women, too.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. What do I mean? What do I mean? I don't know.

[Michelle Zauner]

What are you getting at, Glenn?

[Amanda Doyle]

Good question.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think all the time about this part in Isabel Wilkerson's cast where she talks about how experts in cast can identify what cast a person's from by just the way they walk into a room, regardless of what they're wearing, what they're, whatever. It's just a way that people carry themselves. And in terms of being a sensitive human being, I tend to either shrink or, like, react too strongly to the Way that people who have been conditioned as men carry themselves in a room. Just the lack of yield, the lack of give, the here I am instead of the there you are type thing. So I think about that a lot in terms of also being a white woman and how I do that, in other words, ways. But it's something that I struggle with that men, not men, but, like, the male act is just hard for me.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, I think it's something I both admire and am repulsed by. I always think about this time. My old band used to have a rehearsal space in this warehouse. And there was, like, a freight elevator that we would bring gear up and down for shows and stuff. And one time it broke, and we were, like, stuck in this freight elevator. And I was just like, oh, my God, what do we do? And I watched my male guitar player try to figure out how to operate and fix a freight elevator. And I was just like, what is it like to be conditioned with, like, that kind of confidence that's, like, incredible, and it's simultaneously so dumb and terrifying that you have the confidence to, like, do something that could maybe kill us all, but you also, like, have the strength and courage to try. And I also really envy that and want to find that balance in my life. I will also say I've been repulsed by. I mean, I just think that ideally, like, you find a balance of these things that, like, the sexes can be conditioned by society, that I also watched that kind of masculine trait, like, totally fail because my father was not conditioned to learn how to take care of people. And so when my mom got really sick and was bedridden, I remember, like, we got this mouthwash because she had, like, all of these sores, like, that were response to medication when I would take care of her. It'd be like, okay, here's the mouthwash. And if you need the mouthwash, you're going to need a cup to spit it out in. You're going to want a tissue to wipe your mouth. And, like, you're going to want, like, lip balm, like, afterwards, maybe water to rinse. My. My dad would just be like, here, mouthwash. And then peace out. There wasn't like, this list of, like, things like that he would kind of follow up as a caretaker. And I thought, you know, I wasn't repulsed by him. I was so sad that he didn't get to learn that no one taught him how to do that or to think about those sort of things. And I think that, yeah, I wish, like, as a. Someone who is conditioned with. As a Woman, I had some of the courage to take on things that felt kind of barred from, from me. You know, even just like, a lot of young boys are, like, given a toolbox. As a kid, I never, you know, like, had that. So of course I'm not gonna feel savvy around that kind of stuff because you don't get that. You get these tools of caretaking. You get the dolls that you look after and dress and know how to, you know, maintain. So, yeah, I'm interested in, like, there being a balance of those qualities in the way that people are raised in general.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so interesting in terms of the we can do hard things of it. It's like, this has been a theme on the pod when women have come on and talked about the men in their lives, or like, what is it that makes you think, yes, I can fix a freight elevator, but no, I can't sit with this person in the hard, like, walking people home type heart. You know, a word that she said.

[Amanda Doyle]

That just totally struck me was envy. And how much I related to that. When I feel most frustrated by, like, a white male privilege, like, walking loudly into a room, I think.

[Michelle Zauner]

I wish I had that.

[Amanda Doyle]

I wish I had that. Yeah, that's really, really, really, really something.

[Abby Wambach]

But it's connection to love is fascinating too, because that part of the book with the mouthwash, I remember your mom saying to you when you were giving it to her, he doesn't know how to do it. He's my husband. How come he can't do this for me?

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And it feels like full circle to the car, which is like, I've never met someone like you. How can you not see me? How can you not understand me? Here are these two people who do life together for so long. He can look at her, but he can't see what she needs. Whereas you can look at her and see what she needs. And that was a love impasse for them. She didn't feel in that moment like he could love her the way she wanted her husband to love her by helping her with the mouthwash. And it's just like you say, the ability to condition to see those things.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah. I mean, but in the same breath, I couldn't see her or help her with certain things because of our cultural divide and our background. And that was also what was so heartbreaking. And a lot of what the book is about, too, is like, because even being, you know, half Korean and growing up with a certain type of food, I never ate, like, Korean old person, sick person food, you Know, we ate, like, barbecue meats and spicy stews and, like, when you're going through chemo, that is, like, not. That's what my. I watched my mom growing up eating those things. I didn't ever see, see her or have to, like, make these more muted Korean versions of, like, what, you know, would be, like, chicken noodle soup or whatever. Like, there are Korean versions of that that I never really. I never made and some things I didn't even know about. So in a way, there was this inability for me to see her, too, because I just didn't have that upbringing. And it wasn't until her friend K came to live with us that I realized, like, oh, I'm really failing in this other way of caretaking and way of seeing my mom, because we have very different upbringings and experiences, or are.

[Glennon Doyle]

None of us failing it. It just takes a bunch of people. It's healing and caretaking. It's just a community, and we all bring something. So, Michelle, your mom used to say over and over again, some version of no one will ever love you as much as your mom does. And so subtle again. And my question to you is. And clearly your dad agreed with that, so.

[Michelle Zauner]

Dad concurred.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. So did that turn out to be true?

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

In what ways?

[Michelle Zauner]

I just, like, know it. It's interesting. I just. I don't know. Your mom is just, like. My mom was just, like, obsessed with me. So, like, I don't know. And so much of my, like, young adult life and childhood life was just like her. Just, like, endlessly listening to what I just endlessly listening to, like, the, you know, banal, like, parts of your life, like, with more interest than any other human being will. Will ever give you. Because, like, I wonder how much of it is just, like, that's mine. But anything that you say is, like, you know, that's. That's from me. And, yeah, I just feel. I just feel it. I just don't think anyone has ever been. For better or for worse. No one will ever be as honest with me as her. No one will, like, ever have, like, my true. She just didn't want anything back beyond, like, me living well. And no one. No one will ever. I know no one will ever give that to me again. I feel very loved by a lot of people and especially my husband. But I do know that I don't think anyone will love me as much as my mother loved me.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's like, unconditional love. Like a parent, I feel like, does have unconditional love more than you can have with a partner.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, if you're lucky. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Whether we want to.

[Glennon Doyle]

If you're lucky.

[Abby Wambach]

I wonder if when you said before Michelle, about you felt like the response to that question of, do you need to be understood to be loved? You're like, absolutely. And yet I have this with my mom. And so I'm wondering, is a mother child or father child in applicable situations, the only relationship where there can be utter love without understanding? Like, I don't need to understand you to know that I love you. Like, you are just this marveling creature that I'm obsessed with by virtue of you being mine.

[Michelle Zauner]

Well, I think that, like, understanding is probably a spectrum. There's no. Like, you either understand someone or you don't. You understand different parts of someone. You know, like, I think about, like, my. My two best friends who I've known since I was in middle school, so 20 years now, and I don't understand them. They don't understand me anymore. They're like my siblings. We've grown in such different directions, and we're very different people, but I. We have such a deep love for each other in this way that you can only develop in a way of, like, in longevity, you know? So I think that both things are kind of spectrums, right? Like, I think that, like, there is just no, like, love or no love. There's just no understanding and no understanding. They're both like, on this slider of, like, I understand a deep part of you, but I also, I don't know, love. Love you on. On. On a slider as well.

[Glennon Doyle]

And it's tied to, like, the. You said. You talking about your dad's idea of. Of brutal truth and knowing everything and being transparent and whatever. Maybe, like, love as understanding each other is sort of like a western idea too, because, I mean, even in your. Your mom used to say to you, always save 10%, right? I mean, that was of yourself, of yourself. Always save 10% of yourself. She said, even with your father, I saved 10% of myself. It didn't sound like for her, love was equivalent to I show you 100%. You show me 100%. Love was a different thing. What do you think about that 10% saving 10% of your self advice, even in love. And do you follow it?

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, I mean, I think it could also be interpreted in this way of just like, you're never gonna know anyone 100%. Like we said, I don't even think I understand myself 100%, you know, like, so I think that there's Always something that's missing in translation. And I think in a way like it almost feels like your partner, your romantic partner in life. At least in my situation, I feel like I have the most understanding from my husband because that's the person I've like picked and am compatible with. And we understand each other like very deeply. But I also like, I know my, my there was like a lack of understanding between my parents and I, but they also love me tremendously. My mom in particular just didn't trust anyone. And it was really good advice for you know, to go through life of just, you know, be careful, like don't. People are not to be trusted and everyone is self serving and you have to guard yourself against that. And for better or for worse, that has protected me from a lot of stuff and I think it's given me a really great compass to lead my life. But the older I get, I kind of sort of see it from another perspective where I think that it can also apply to being withholding to protect people. I think that sometimes there's a kind of western concept of always tell the truth and be like so unapologetically yourself. But sometimes I think it's like an unburdening for you to have to tell the truth. And sometimes it's better for people to not know certain things. Like one thing I thought was interesting was an example of this is like when my mom was sick, she found out that her old friends who'd kind of disappeared, her childhood friend who's disappeared daughter had cancer and that wrecked her. She was just a mess because she was just so pained by the idea that a young child was going through what she was going through. And I think my aunt saw that and when her, her dad actually died two or three weeks before my mom, they decided not to tell her that it was better not to tell her. My dad and maybe me would be like, mom, sorry to tell you this, but this happened. And I think that that can also be a type of 10% of just like what does that do right now for this person and to really think about this truth. Just every piece of information I own need to be put onto this person. Is it a good thing for them to know or is it better to keep to myself? That's like a really hard lesson. I've been thinking about a lot lately. If someone says something to you that's cruel about a friend, do you need to tell them? You know, I mean, no, you do not. And I think that when I even like a couple years ago, I probably would have. If someone says something like mean about your friend or like oh, like that might make them self conscious, maybe it's best to not tell them. Not because you want to expose the other person, but because you don't want that to weigh on their psyche. And I think it's actually more loving to withhold that kind of stuff than to just tell someone everything.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, it's like Wise Love Michelle's honor. Thank you POD Squad. We Can Do Hard Things Wise Love this week. See you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.