← We Can Do Hard Things
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- [00:00]
Glennon Doyle
Finding a great mentor who can really help me level up isn't easy. But my dream mentor, Amy Poehler. So when I heard she had a class on Masterclass, I was so excited. Masterclass is the ultimate way to learn from the best, to become your best. It's the only platform where you can access over 200 world renowned experts for just $10 a month. An annual membership gives you unlimited access to every instructor. One class that really stood out to me was James Clear's course on building new habits. 88% of masterclass members say it had a positive impact on their lives and I can definitely see why. Plus every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. So there's no risk in starting your learning journey today. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at Masterclass.com/hard things. That's 15% off at Masterclass.com hard things Masterclass.com hardthings I don't know about y'all.
- [01:05]
Abby Wambach
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- [02:23]
Glennon Doyle
Here we are.
- [02:24]
Lily Collins
Oh my God. This is a surreal moment for me. I feel like I'm on another planet.
- [02:31]
Amanda Doyle
Oh my God. It's this planet. It's so good. How are you?
- [02:36]
Lily Collins
I'm so good. I'm so much better now that your faces have popped up. This is a total dream come true. I literally hear your voices in my head all, all the time, all three of you. When I'm driving, when I'm having a moment, you hop in and now I get to see your faces.
- [02:53]
Amanda Doyle
I guess we're just Started. We've already started. Welcome to We can do hard things. We're already here. We have just seen the face of our dearest Lily Collins. And you and I, Lily, have been waiting for this moment for a long while. And Pod Squad, you should know that every once in a while I get a text from Lily that says, I just listened to the last episode and here are my thoughts and feelings about it.
- [03:17]
Lily Collins
Yes, it's true. You keep me company on long drives and during those days or moments when you forget that you can do hard things. And you keep me company. You keep me motivated. Sometimes I cry. Sometimes I laugh. Sometimes I laugh while I'm crying. It's all of the feelings, all of the time. Yeah, I just, I always want to just tell people when they say something or do something that touches me or means a lot. I never expect responses, but I feel like sometimes those are the moments when you need to share and you always so sweetly respond. Means a lot.
- [03:51]
Amanda Doyle
Thank you, Lily.
- [03:53]
Glennon Doyle
Well, isn't she the sweetest?
- [03:55]
Lily Collins
Yeah.
- [03:56]
Amanda Doyle
And she's also really smart and deep and just hold on, you'll see. Lily Collins is a Golden Globe nominated actress, author of the international bestselling book Unfiltered. No shame, no regrets, Just me and a philanthropist. Collins can currently be seen in the Netflix series Emily in Paris. Just a delightful romp, which I haven't done. I've never said those words before in my life, but it really is. For which she received her second Golden Globe nomination. Lily. Amazing. Lily launched Case Study films alongside her husband, Charlie McDowell. But Lily's philanthropic endeavors extend to participating in various We Day events and the Geo Campaign. Born in West Sussex, England, Collins moved to the United states at age 6 and currently resides in Los Angeles.
- [04:49]
Glennon Doyle
Is it go campaign or go?
- [04:51]
Lily Collins
I mean, it's go campaign, but you.
- [04:53]
Amanda Doyle
Know what GI calls it.
- [04:55]
Lily Collins
So we can just go with either one.
- [04:57]
Amanda Doyle
Lily, this is my sister Amanda. And this is.
- [05:00]
Lily Collins
Hi sister. I literally have seen your beautiful faces on the little squares on Instagram as well. So I feel very familiar with you. And you, Abby. So wonderful to meet you and having read your books. Glennon, during COVID during the beginning of lockdown, I feel like I know a little bit of the wonderful journey that you've all been on together and I'm so grateful to have been able to read about your experiences and to continue to see all the adventures and the growth.
- [05:32]
Abby Wambach
We had the same reaction to you because of knowing about your journey and it something that hit me particularly intimately because it's something that I haven't talked a lot about in my life, but this idea of when we're really young, having toxic relationships that we only, at least for me, begin to unearth and really see and objective way the older we get. And your journey through that and being so brave and talking about it, I think is helpful for so many, including me. And then your path to now where you just got married and every relationship has its thing, so we're not going to idealize anything. But the path from an unhealthy relationship to a healthy one is a big journey and it's not a linear path.
- [06:23]
Lily Collins
I was just going to use one of my favorite terms, which is nonlinear. And you just literally said it before me. It's so true. Someone used that recently and said, you know, it's just a nonlinear journey. And I went, God, I love that so much. It really is. It perfectly defines the journey because you never know when it's going to be up. You never know when it's going to be down. You don't know when you're going to experience that setbacks, you know, going one step forward, two steps back or vice versa, like you just don't know. And the idea of it being a nonlinear takes away that pressure of it being perfect right away and accepting the fact that it's non linear is so freeing in a sense. But yeah, you kind of said it like you don't know what's necessarily happening when you're in it because you're so far in it and part of you wants to be there. At some points all of me wanted to be there. But then my body was physically reacting in ways that I've never experienced. My skin was breaking out and I was having these panic attacks and I had kidney infections and all of this stuff that I'm going, I've never really had bad acne, I've never had heart palpitations like this, all of these weird physical manifestations. But I didn't at that time of my life, put the two and two together as saying, like your body is telling you this is not something you're supposed to be in. And it's only until this part of my life when I've really been able to associate physical manifestations and emotional feelings and situations into one understanding. And a lot of that now seems quite obvious to me in relation to this relationship. And a lot of it was, he chose me, so that's cool, that's a big deal. And I leaned into what it was that he wanted me to be like, wanted me to say or not say where not. Where do not do. There was a lot of control, a lot of emotional abuse. And, you know, when you get told something over and over again and you're at an impressionable age, you become conditioned to believe that that is what it is and you are what they say you are. And it's confusing.
- [09:00]
Abby Wambach
So confusing. And I think the age thing is so interesting. Lily, of course we know interpersonal violence in relationship happens across every race, across every age, all of it. But we don't. I think we don't tend to talk about it when it happens in younger relationships because it's like, that's supposed to be, like, laughed off. That isn't as formative as it is. It's only a legitimate relationship if you're an adult. But when we think about it, young women 18 to 24 are actually at the highest rates of intimate, personal violence of any group. And for high school students, one in three of them experience physical or sexual violence. And I think it's so important to bring this conversation to those younger years. That's when I experienced it. I don't know when you did, but I think I was like 14 to 17 when I was in that. And that can seem illegitimate, but it was very big in setting up the foundation for who I chose next and next and next.
- [10:01]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [10:02]
Abby Wambach
I don't know if you talk about your age, but was. Were you in that position?
- [10:05]
Lily Collins
I was early 20s.
- [10:07]
Abby Wambach
Early 20s, so it's still fun.
- [10:09]
Lily Collins
It totally applies to me. And, you know, it's interesting. When I was in high school, I was a part of a peer support program at my school, which completely changed my life. It was basically teen therapy. And I trained to be a teen therapist. And every Monday we would meet in a group of the same students. From 10th to 12th grade, there were no adults in the room, so it felt completely freeing because at that age, anybody over the age of 18 felt way too old to be privy to my information and what I was going through. And so having the same group of kids every week for the entire year to be able to openly discuss our problems, issues, confusing things, exciting things. Of course, unless there was a red flag where you were hurting yourself, you were hurting someone else, or someone was hurting you, then you brought it to the school therapist, but otherwise it was completely student run. And it was an amazing opportunity to connect during those formidable high school years on topics that you would think that person and I have nothing in common. Whereas, in fact, maybe the situation is different, but the feelings are the same. And if we can connect on the Feelings and know that we're all the same in that way, it'll make A, high school a little more doable. And B, you wouldn't create a stigma and a shame around certain feelings that I think do unfairly get that reputation. And it's interesting that I then found myself in a situation that I could have used that group's help, but I was out of high school. I wasn't yet in actual therapy. But I want to say one of the gifts of the domino effect of this relationship was it led me to therapy. And it was the breaking point for me to go, I really need to talk about this. I was outside of the relationship at that point, but I had so many lingering feelings. And to be completely honest, up until two weeks ago, I realized I still have lingering feelings. And we are 10 years past it.
- [12:23]
Amanda Doyle
Oh, I mean, absolutely.
- [12:24]
Abby Wambach
Thank you for saying that. That's so honest this morning.
- [12:27]
Amanda Doyle
Sometimes when people are like, do you have a healthy relationship with yourself? I'm like, well, I feel like from 10am to 10:20, I was having a really healthy relationship, you know? But, like, if you ask me about 1045-1115, it's not. But, Lily, I'm so glad you brought up that peer group, because what I have noticed about relationships that are toxic, I also want for the four of us to talk about what that means. What does it mean to be in a bad relationship, a toxic relationship, an abusive relationship? I can find myself in them now. I just had an interesting relationship in work that was totally unhealthy. Now, here's what happened. I found myself isolated with this person, and we created this really little toxic situation because there was just the two of us. And it's this weird thing that happens when it's just the two people and you have decided for some reason that you're not gonna discuss. Discuss it in the outer world? I don't think it's something that just happens to people who are weak or who are this or that. It can happen to any of us at any time. And it always gets bigger and more dangerous in isolation. Which is why that high school group or having some of the equivalent of it now. Because the way I got out of it was I. I described it to two friends, and two of my friends were like, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah, that's not normal.
- [14:01]
Lily Collins
Yeah.
- [14:02]
Amanda Doyle
And then I thought, oh, had I been talking about this with a larger group? It's like the larger accountability groups remind you of what's normal and what's not.
- [14:11]
Lily Collins
When you forget that's so important. That's completely important. And actually, now in my life, having my wonderful, supportive husband, we do communicate and talk about so much that he will be the first person that goes, you know, that's not normal, right? Or that's pretty fucked up. Or that must feel weird. And it's like, oh, actually, yeah. If I were to write down what I just said and reread it to myself, I'd go, that's crazy. Like, why am I putting up with that? Or why do I think that's okay? And you're so right. At that age, you're fearful of speaking up. But in those times that I did, or as a teen therapist, heard other people speaking up and watched their face as, like, five people in the room said, oh, my God, I felt that, or I'm in that situation, and you watch their face receive that. It's the most beautiful moment to witness someone realizing they're not alone or they would use the word crazy. And I'm like, just stop using that word. Like, feelings cannot make you crazy. Like, that term. We can joke about it and use it, but when you take it to heart and actually feel like this feeling associates with you being quote, unquote, crazy, that will come with you throughout your life, and you will feel like that feeling is not okay to feel. So when you're an adult and you're feeling that, you shut down and you hibernate and you. You kind of freeze like this, like, fight or flight panic thing. And like, you were saying that 10am I'm fine, and 10, 20, I'm not. I constantly have those moments where I wake up and I'm like, today's gonna be great. I'm gonna be fine. And I try to work through all of this in the moment now because it's just so important to try and understand it while it's happening. But it is really hard, especially if you haven't had your coffee yet. And all of a sudden I'm having a moment and Charlie is my husband's, like, okay, that look, you've done that deer in the headlights thing. What's happening? Something's happening and it can just switch. And it's so important to talk it out. Even though if you don't have the words, because so many times I don't have the words, it literally won't come out. And I think so much of that to go back, what makes a situation toxic? And it can be, like you said, it can be in work, it can be in romance, it can be a friendship. It can be someone you literally run into at the coffee shop that you've never met before and you leave and go, oh, well, that felt awful. But for me, my romantic, toxic relationship with a lot of verbal and emotional abuse and being made to feel very small, he would call me little Lily and, oh, you should be little Lily. And like, he'd use awful words about me in terms of what I was wearing and would call me a whore and all these things. There were awful words and then there were belittling words and it became this extremely belittling silent. I became quite silent and comfortable in silence and feeling like I had to make myself small to feel super safe. And my wonderful therapist has now taught me so much about in evolutionary times and kind of the experience through thousands of years ago with this most simplest forms of predator and prey. When prey felt threatened, they made themselves feel as small as possible, possibly by not eating, by making themselves look as least juicy and enticing as possible. And that's where they felt the safest because the predator were no longer a threat. And then you cut to thousands of years later, I am not thinking about predator and prey, but it is that same feeling of panic and anxiety and wanting to just get by and feel safe in some way. And that anxiety was heightened in my toxic relationship completely. That's the panic attack manifestations. All of this and my body reacting like I said. And it's not until now that I kind of can recognize that fight or flight feeling or the feeling of needing to hibernate. The situations are completely different 10 years ago to now, and also my, you know, ancestors of thousands of years ago. None of that applies to me. I'm not looking to hibernate. But the feeling of panic is the same. And that panic is what I can still get triggered by now, even if I'm in the most healthy relationship. There can be a moment that happens throughout the day where history comes back like that. It's like a millisecond or shorter than a millisecond. And your gut reacts, your heart drops, your heart starts beating, and all of a sudden you're taken back to that moment where they said that thing to you 10 years ago, but you're not in that situation now. And that's the trigger. And it's fucking hard. It's awful.
- [19:35]
Abby Wambach
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- [21:21]
Glennon Doyle
We just got this package from Symbiotica and I'm so excited. I've used their liposomal glutathione and the vitamin C and they're my favorite products by far. The liposomal form gets it into your system and actually gets it to the places that you need it to be. So that especially during the winter times and the colds and all the things, I just need my system and my immune system to be like, strong and capable of going outside and not worrying about getting sick. And that's what Symbiotica is giving me. It's giving me for real belief in my body again.
- [21:53]
Amanda Doyle
I know it's real. Just to Symbiotica. Thank you for making my wife so happy.
- [21:57]
Glennon Doyle
High quality holistic wellness right at your fingertips. Be present and feel your best for life's most memorable moments. Go to symbiotica.com Glennon for 20% off your order plus free shipping today. That's symbiotica.com Glennon For 20% off your order, plus free shipping. I want to go along that lines because I think it's really important what you're talking about, and I'm sure that there's a lot of people listening that can totally relate to that experience of being triggered. I'm in a position where I can actually see the trigger happen on Glennon. And so my question is, how does Charlie interact with you when he feels or sees a trigger happen to you? What are ways that he helps you through those moments where you're feeling triggered? Is he helpful? I think it'd be really helpful for our listeners to have some language around something, a way that he interacts with you.
- [23:02]
Lily Collins
Well, I've never had someone other than Charlie witness me in that state, probably because I've never felt comfortable enough to be in that state, knowing that that person's not gonna leave. So I've probably existed in that panic or those moments of being triggered. And I've pro. Shut down before, but I shut down and didn't feel the feelings because I was afraid that if I did, they would see me in a different way and they'd leave.
- [23:31]
Amanda Doyle
Absolutely. That's. You're crazy. You're crazy. You're crazy.
- [23:34]
Lily Collins
100%. I'm like, oh, they're never gonna wanna see this.
- [23:37]
Amanda Doyle
So is that what you mean by hibernating?
- [23:39]
Lily Collins
Yeah, I freeze. So it's like a fight or flight. It's like a deer in the headlights freeze. Apparently my eyes go quite big and I just have this look on my face where I don't have the words to articulate what I need to say. My brain moves so fast, I'm thinking all the time to the point of exhaustion sometimes. And that's something I'm also working on because I have these voices where I'm just always kind of talking out scenarios. So if something happens where I get triggered and I start feeling something, my initial instinct or reaction is I need to think about this to exhaustion before I can find the words to articulate to Charlie or to somebody, because they may not understand until I can actually eloquently articulate in paragraph form what I.
- [24:28]
Amanda Doyle
Need to say as if I'm in a courtroom and I'm presenting my case for having this feeling. I need to justify this feeling 100%.
- [24:38]
Lily Collins
And I'm so used to having to kind of have the perfect words to say it. So I will wait an hour, a day, a week. You know what? Maybe I won't even get back to it, and it'll just pass. And so I think I've had these moments in the past, but never felt like I was in a safe enough place to show it in the moment, or the person wasn't as aware nor knew me well enough to see that look and know that there's something happening. So when I'm in one of those moments, it is so clear to Charlie, who can read me like a book. And he calls it out in the moment, calls it out, and when I say calls it out, that can sometimes have a bad connotation. When someone says, why are you calling me out? No, this is what healthy conversation and healthy communication can feel like. When someone can lovingly bring to your attention or call out something that doesn't feel right or that they maybe don't agree with or that they want to help you with. It may feel uncomfortable, but it's for the best. And so when he says to me, what's going on? What happened? Is it something I said? Are you feeling some sort of way? Because that just shifted very quickly. Sometimes I'll say, no, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. It's like, okay, you're not fine. I know you're not fine. Let's talk about it. And I have gotten better at saying, if I truly feel like I need to take a moment, I will say, you're right. There is something that just happened. I'm feeling some sort of way. I'm actually not at the place right now to properly articulate what I'm feeling. I can tell you the feelings. I know you want to help and you want to know them. I promise I'll get back to you. Because I know in the past, sometimes I've said I will, and then I don't. And then it goes unnoticed, and then it gets not talked about, and then it gets projected somewhere else. So I totally get that. But in this exact moment, I would really like to take some space and some time. And I know for anyone listening, that may actually sound like an untrue conversation. No, it's not. But I am that person now. I will say it that way because I know that he needs to know that I'm taking accountability for the fact that it is true. I also know that he needs to know I'll get back to him, and I need him to understand that I need the space and the time.
- [27:00]
Glennon Doyle
So good.
- [27:01]
Lily Collins
But if I'm having a real moment, that I do need to talk it out. Like, three mornings ago, everything was fine. And then I got off the phone and he came in and he Just looked at me and I had that stare and I said, I'm fine. And then I went, you know what, actually? And then I started talking and then it all came out and. And it's a non judgmental space, right? Like, Abby, when you're saying that you can see it happen. I think knowing that you're safe, knowing that you're not being judged, and knowing that you're not going anywhere provides the space to feel comfortable enough to kind of blurt everything out. And you know that unless it is something that you or Charlie has said, it's not personal. It's me going through my stuff. It's you, Glennon, going through what you're thinking and feeling and knowing it's okay to just blurt it all out. And maybe the other person, Charlie, will help me articulate it in a way that makes sense. And also, like you said, Glennon, about when you talk through things to your friends or to your loved ones or to your partner or whoever it may be, and they can so clearly see that something is wrong or fucked up or messed up or messy, it helps give you clarity in the moment. And sometimes I end up laughing and going, oh, my God, thank you. Because I would have spent the whole day spiraling.
- [28:31]
Amanda Doyle
I mean, Lily, I think this is the point. I'm trying to figure out what the point of having friends is. No, I am. And I'm learning it now. I think I have always thought that friendship was a burden. Because what I did with people is I would get to anybody, partner, friend, whoever, and they would say, how are you? And I would give them a report on maybe a problem that I might have had, how I worked it all out, how everything's fine right now and here's my report. But what I never did was say anything that I was thinking or worried about. Right now, I'm struggling with. I'm scared.
- [29:16]
Glennon Doyle
Unfinished business. Yeah. Something that you're never.
- [29:19]
Amanda Doyle
One of my kids said to me recently, do you know that when you're with people, you can talk about what you're actually thinking? And I was like, what? No, we're just reporting back and forth on all of the low. So many things that we have fixed. So this idea that I could do what you're doing, like say, I don't know what's going on right now. I just feel scared. I think, Abby, the thing you just said reminds me of something that so and so used to say to me. And so it's kind of not about what you just said, but it kind of is about what you just said, you know, it's like that sitting in that trigger place is such a vulnerable invitation.
- [30:05]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. And it's tricky to see that I might have caused a trigger and to not take that as personally, because like you said, Lily, it's not as personal. It's bringing up some sort of past. And so the first part of our relationship, I. I was like, I've done something wrong. And then I go into a shame spiral.
- [30:23]
Amanda Doyle
And it didn't help that I was like, yes, you have done something wrong. Like, I didn't figure out for a while that I was also responsible for all the things coming up.
- [30:34]
Abby Wambach
There are so many huge steps between being in a relationship like the one you're in and being able to X number of years later say, I actually need some time to think through this. I mean, that's a revolution. Because when you think about the whole point of toxic relationships is that, first of all, we were saying earlier about, like, it's important for people to be able to reflect back to you. That's not normal. But in a way, the perniciousness of toxic relationships is like, that's the very point of them.
- [31:15]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [31:16]
Abby Wambach
In my experience, we're not normal. No one can understand us. You and I are the only one that can understand what's happening in this little ecosystem. And everyone else doesn't understand it, so they're going to tell us it's not normal. But so, like, everyone outside of the relationship is a threat to your relationship, and then in your relationship, the other person is a threat to you. But in this, like, really weird Stockholm syndrome where you're trying to make it make sense so. And you lose your personhood. Right, there's the idea.
- [31:50]
Lily Collins
Yeah, completely. Your identity is completely rocked.
- [31:53]
Abby Wambach
Exactly. And then 10 years later, you would have enough personhood to say, I need to take some time. Because there would be no time to take. There would be no person to go back to to confer with and make sense of it. If you were in your old way of thinking, because there was no separate person, there was only you in how you related to that person, because you dissolve in them, yet you aren't given.
- [32:16]
Lily Collins
The space or the ability to individuate. And at that time, if you're in that, you said the late teenage, early 20 years, that's when you're blooming and creating your identity. And if you're so wrapped up with one other person and you're being encouraged to quiet all the outside noise, because that's not good. Your friends know, your parents Know, like, let's just have it be us. And part of you is going, oh, great, okay. And then part of you wants to reach out, but then there stops being the ability and the outreach for that. And you're only mirrored with what you're seeing. And that person is telling you who you are. You are conditioned to start believing it. And then once you're out of it, you are rocked. There's a sense of a self identity crisis, in a sense. I've been this for so long. What am I? What do I like? What do I find funny? What do I want to eat? What do I want to wear? Where do I want to go? What do I want to look at every day? And you're going, I don't know. And that can make you freeze too. Because, I mean, now it's like once you get out of something like that, there can be a renaissance where you're going, oh, to try everything. I want to see who I am, what I like, what I don't like. But there's also a scary factor to it where you aren't having that person to rely on anymore for answers. And even if they weren't healthy answers, they were answers that you became used to. And it delays that individuating process.
- [33:54]
Abby Wambach
And you also have to fight against what you have come to believe, which is anything that you think independent of me is stupid and is unreliable and doesn't make any sense. So when you go out and try to figure out what you are, you're like, I think I like this, but.
- [34:10]
Amanda Doyle
100%, how do I know?
- [34:12]
Lily Collins
Left out.
- [34:13]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [34:13]
Lily Collins
And there's the idea that you can't do things on your own, so you're always gonna need me. So good luck trying. And it's like, of course you're gonna feel rocked. Of course you're gonna feel like what you did, which is completely second guessing everything. Feeling this sense of guilt. If you do do anything on your own, you can, like, celebrate it for a second. And then it's like, oh, God, well, was I supposed to do that on my own? It's just so complicated and exhausting, and that does take a while to rebuild. And then now being in a relationship where I've never felt more celebrated or encouraged to find even more of my identity through discovery and adventure and also failure. Like, it's okay to try something and it doesn't work out. Like, I did a pottery class, loved it, didn't create the coolest bowl. So maybe it's like, not for me.
- [35:10]
Glennon Doyle
Oh, my gosh, I Want to do that.
- [35:11]
Lily Collins
You know that, by the way. So fun. Yeah, it is really fun. But it's okay to keep discovering yourself. We don't have to have everything figured out, and you don't have to enjoy everything that your person does either. But let's just keep trying and finding what version of yourself you are now.
- [35:33]
Amanda Doyle
Does it feel big like you. You talk about in your toxic relationship that you felt very small, and then even, you know, the pod squad can't see you. But when you're talking about your relationship right now with Charlie, your body gets bigger. You're waving your arms, you're talking about expanding, and it's. Your body's getting bigger as you're talking about it. Does it feel expansive? I'm trying to figure out, how did you end up from the small place to the big place? How did you get out of that bad one? Because we always say, like, first the pain, then the waiting, then the rising. So, like, how did you get out of that relationship where you were feeling so small? In the smallness, I will say in.
- [36:21]
Lily Collins
That specific relationship, friends and family intervened and said, this is not normal. Even though I didn't ask for it.
- [36:29]
Amanda Doyle
Good for them.
- [36:29]
Lily Collins
They intervened, which I'm so grateful for. And I took myself out of it because somewhere deep down, I knew I was worth more. I felt that I didn't want that anymore. I didn't want the physical manifestations to continue, even if I hadn't associated it directly with this experience, experience or this person. I didn't want to live that way. I loved my friends and my family that intervened so much that I thought, there's got to be merit to their words. There's something not right. And I also knew the second that I left, because I am the one that stopped being in that relationship first, I felt so free, so light, so much brighter. My brightness came back. Didn't even realize I was less bright, but I felt brighter. I felt bigger, I felt free. I felt the lump in my stomach go away. I all of a sudden could breathe. And of course you go through. Then I was angry, then I was sad, then I was confused, then I felt guilty. Then I thought, oh, maybe I can change. And it was me. And you go through all of these experiences, and I was given the opportunity by this person to enter back into the relationship for another time. And I said, no, thank you. And at that moment, I knew that I had learned enough about myself through reading, through my first experiences in therapy, through talking to my friends about the realness of that experience. Because I think I. I definitely sugarcoated a lot of those moments to them, of course, in a way that was like, oh, I'm fine. It's all good. Yeah, that's not. I don't love that, but it's not as bad as you think it is. And when I stopped sugarcoating and started realizing what was actually going on, and by the way, journaled and screenshot and saved emails because I wanted one day to be able not to read it and go, oh, God, but to read it and go, I didn't make it up. Yes, because you never know. You know, you never know if your mind is gonna play tricks with you. And I saved it all. And I even knew to go further back. At 16 years old, I knew that I was gonna want to remember the summer I was 16. And I thought, I'm gonna learn a lot of things about myself this year. I know that in the next two years, there's gonna be a lot of things that happen to me. And I'm going to start journaling because I'm going to want my future self to look back and know where things started really percolating and what feelings I was associating with, what experiences. And one day I'm going to want to know that. And then when I went to go write my book and when I went to go play a character in the movie to the Bone, I was like, wait a second, I've written about stuff. And I went back and thought it even said to future me, in case you're wondering. And I'm like, what? And so having all of that helped me take what I had written and then verbalize it. So, like, actually making my voice louder, filling me up with more, like, air, to be able to say it out loud and then to receive the gift of other people saying, wow, that affected me. Wow, I read that, or I heard you speak about that, and that was my story, too. Or, thank you for sharing that. That gave me the empowerment to kind of take a megaphone and then say it even louder. And then even through all of that, admitting to all the stuff that I did in the book that I wrote, which there's so much more I've learned since that first one. Even through all that, I'm gonna find a guy that wants to be with me. Oh, and he's encouraging me to be even louder. That's what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to be a bigger version of what I thought wasn't actually appropriate. I was called inappropriate so many times for using A voice. And now I'm being told, no, no, no. Use your voice to the loudest capacity that you have. Because why not? Why are you freezing? Just say it. Let go. And I have a problem letting go. I do. I don't breathe properly. I don't like saying the words. Sometimes I just don't like letting go. And after being told for years in so many different arenas just like, let go, let go. I'm like, what the fuck do you mean let go? I don't know what you're saying. I am letting go. But that letting go ability, it like you need to breathe to talk. And sometimes I like hold in too much.
- [41:26]
Amanda Doyle
Oh my God, Lily.
- [41:37]
Abby Wambach
If you're anything like me, you probably take thousands of photos every year. And while I have more photos than ever, they are all stuck on my phone. I never see them in real life. Getting them out of my phone and into my house felt like it would take more effort than I had to offer. This is why I want to tell you how easy it is to create photo books. With Shutterfly. You can make a photo book about anything that matters to you. Your family vacation, a wedding, a graduation, any special life event that deserves to have a physical memory in your home. One that you can revisit anytime and relive. The best part is that it is E A S Y E Z. You can use Shutterfly's Autofill tool to get a quick, quick start and then go in and add your personal captions and details to make it just right. Shutterfly also offers a free 24 hour designer service, a professional designer that will lay out your entire photo book for you in just one day. Make something that means something with Shutterfly. Enjoy. 40% off orders over $29 with promo code Hard things. See site for promotional details. Toyota has been building a legacy of excellence for years. From developing hybrid technology to upping the standards of safety and efficiency, Toyota is always innovating, always making progress. And with Toyota's superior lineup of SUVs in stock at your local Toyota dealer, you can experience the legacy for yourself. So check out an adventure. Ready RAV4. Designed to be the perfect mix of style, practicality and go anywhere, attitude or test drive. A capable and affordable Corolla Cross with the style, space and available tech to keep you cool and connected. And both RAV4 and Corolla Cross are available with all wheel drive, giving you the freedom to roam. Quality, reliability, efficiency. That's the legacy of Toyota. Visit buyatoyota.com, the official website for deals to find out more. Toyota. Let's go places.
- [43:46]
Amanda Doyle
So when did you meet Charlie? And when you met him, did you immediately recognize him as freedom or was he scary as shit to you or both?
- [43:56]
Abby Wambach
Because we have talked a lot about how when you're used to a certain thing and you're comfortable with discomfort, when you meet someone who represents freedom or peace or joy, you can be actually suspicious.
- [44:10]
Amanda Doyle
Oh, listen, this one. Oh, you're good. You're fine. Just relax. I'm like, I don't trust your judgment. I don't know if we can trust you, you know? So tell me about meeting Charlie and how that all went down.
- [44:26]
Lily Collins
I met Charlie in 2019, so right before the pandemic, essentially. And to backtrack a little, I had spoken to a psychic months and months and months and months and months before, and she had said to me, I feel like you're gonna meet your person in May.
- [44:51]
Abby Wambach
And I was like, that's quite specific.
- [44:53]
Lily Collins
I was like, okay, sure. Cool. Great. I mean, maybe. I don't know. And I don't live my life according to what I'm being told. I'm just like. It's in the back of my mind. And May comes around, and there's a part of me that's like, cool, K, come on.
- [45:11]
Abby Wambach
Keep your head up, Lily.
- [45:13]
Lily Collins
Manifest, you know? And I get to the end of May, and I'm like, okay, well, it didn't happen because it wasn't that person. And I didn't like that. Nah, I'm not going to force it. You know, it's clearly not meant to be. And then Charlie and I meet through a work experience, just something at work, and I see him. It was just like a FaceTime meeting, because we were both in different places and we were meeting on something, and his face popped up. And I kid you not, his face popped up. And I'm like, whoa, do I. Do I know this person? This is weird. Like, there was like an old soul connection right away where I just felt so confused. This is not a word, but confusably comfortable. I was like, I don't understand what's happening right now. But I didn't associate with the date that it was. I didn't associate it with anything at first. Romantic. I just was like, whoa, this is a weird connection with a human. And as we're talking, we have so much in common. We're half British, half American. Our dads are both British. In the entertainment industry of a certain age, we have been in the same rooms at the same time. I had just recently danced with his mother and stepfather at a birthday party, which we were like, wait, I've already met some of your family. We had similar people in common. We just had all these weird experiences that we should have met, but we hadn't. And as I'm talking, I realize I'm starting to, like, kind of, like twirl my hair. And I'm, like, starting to get a little awkward, but I still don't really clock it until after, when I overly analyze the situation in my head. But we're talking. It's the most wonderful, easy conversation ever. And I just felt connected to this person. We get off the phone and like, two or three days go by where I keep talking about him to people in a way that is about work, but also just kind of past that, talking about how wonderful the conversation was. I remember them being like, so you've talked more about this person than a person that you have gone out on dates with. And you said it was just like a meeting. I'm like, yeah, it was just a meeting, but. Hmm. And then I looked at my calendar and I had met him on May 30, and I was like, whoa, wait a second. And so then we started messaging each other. I reached out first.
- [47:54]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, you did make that a thing.
- [47:56]
Lily Collins
I reached out first and then that was it. We talked 247 for days and days and days. And my favorite thing is another reason why I knew he was. He was the one was when I said, so let's definitely get together when we're both back in town. At some point, I'm actually going to London to go to the Spice Girls concert. So maybe after that. And I was like, what's his reaction gonna be? And he was like, oh, my God, I love that you're going. That's gonna be so fun. Oh, because.
- [48:24]
Amanda Doyle
And it was just this. You were wondering if he was gonna belittle that.
- [48:28]
Lily Collins
Yeah, that would have been a real sign. And then it was. It, you know, I just felt right away that I was a going to be as safe and protected as I've ever felt, and also equally as challenged, but healthily challenged to be a bigger, bolder, more inquisitive, adventurous self. Which, to your point, is fucking scary, right? Because I thought I knew everything about myself. I thought I knew who I was. I knew at the core who I was. But I was still totally individuating and I was still finding me. But you can do that and be in a relationship. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And that Was the first time I found that out.
- [49:22]
Amanda Doyle
Yes. Held.
- [49:23]
Lily Collins
Freed the first time.
- [49:24]
Amanda Doyle
Held and free. That's what I.
- [49:26]
Lily Collins
Yes.
- [49:27]
Amanda Doyle
It's like I always thought you either are held so you're like safe, but you're not. You don't have any freedom. Right. Or you're just out on your own, but you don't have any heldness. So to find a thing where you are both absolutely held in who you are and absolutely free to expand is a miracle that in and of itself.
- [49:53]
Lily Collins
Can be confusing to somebody who has either not believed the moments when they've been told to fly or they've been told that but the words have said one thing and the intention was, but you better come back real fast.
- [50:10]
Amanda Doyle
That's right.
- [50:10]
Lily Collins
You know, and if you're an empathic person, if you're someone that can really clue yourself into what someone's saying and the intention behind it, and you're getting these completely mismatched feelings that can create this idea that a what people say isn't what they mean. Or I can't even trust the good of what you're saying because I think it's going to come with some sort of resentment or you're going to hold it against me or you don't really mean that. And it takes a while for that to stop being your go to. And when you're shown again, expressing that is important because they can be unfortunate misprojections of something that I'm still feeling from the past where I'm like, I don't know if what you're saying is true, whereas he's saying, no, but I wouldn't say it if it weren't. I don't say things if I don't mean it. And it's like, oh, yes, okay, okay, right, right, right. I'm just trying to reprogram my brain because I haven't trusted that in the past. But I'm going to lean in and I'm going to trust it. And then after time and time again of those experiences actually being positive ones, you then can reprogram and recondition yourself to trust what someone's saying and their intention.
- [51:32]
Amanda Doyle
Yes, but it's not that we're crazy. It's because we've been in places where people did say one thing and mean another thing.
- [51:39]
Lily Collins
Exactly.
- [51:40]
Amanda Doyle
And that is part of being in an abusive relationship is like you always feel a little bit crazy because they're saying one thing, but the energy underneath it is completely different. So then when you get into healthy relationship, I mean, I just admitted To Abby that when she like looks at me in a moment and out of the blue says, you look beautiful or you're beautiful. My thought is she's just looked at me, thinks I look terrible, and is overcompensating for that feeling of thought by telling me that I look beautiful. Like, it is some crazy ass shit, right? And I didn't admit that to her for five years. I just told her that like three months ago. But that doesn't come from nowhere.
- [52:32]
Lily Collins
No, I've had similar completely. But that's why I said I overthink where I'm going. Oh, there's no way that that. Okay, so that it must be that. But I'm. Now I'm not going to say anything. And now I'm going to hold it in and now I'm going to think every single time that happens that that's the reason why. And it's like, yeah, so exhausting.
- [52:48]
Glennon Doyle
I mean, first of all, I'm very simple. I'm like, my eyes see thing, say something it likes, you're beautiful. That's. That's literally it.
- [53:00]
Amanda Doyle
So what's your conflict now? What does conflict look like with you and Charlie now?
- [53:06]
Lily Collins
Oh, gosh, it's being held accountable for things or being, like I said originally, lovingly called out. I find more conflict within myself. I've always felt like I'm my own worst critic or worst enemy. I will create conflict if there isn't conflict within myself, because that's kind of where I was comfortable for a long time. And that then may create conflict because I don't want to talk about it or I don't know how to articulate it. And so the idea of being lovingly challenged is probably what I would associate now with healthy conflict as opposed to it feeling like something's wrong and now I've got to fight about it or defend something. It usually stems from something to do with me overthinking or me feeling some sort of way about myself and trying to work through that type of conflict, like more inner conflict. And maybe if I don't properly internalize or vocalize that it can lead to misprojected conflict, you know, and those are the times when I have to, like, lily, stop. What are you doing? Take the time if you need it. Let's figure out where it's coming from. It has nothing to do with the situation that you're now taking it out on. And sometimes I write those things down in like a drafts note, note thing. I bring it up to my therapist and I go, this weird thing happened or this feeling happened and I don't know why or where it's coming from. And like you said, that third party person can sometimes go, oh, well, that is completely, completely associated with X, Y or Z from this many years ago or now. And so I think the main source of anxiety for me, and it's something I've only learned in the past year, I think, is that I was really born anxious. I was an anxious child. And I didn't know that the term anxiety applied to me. I would always use it and be like, how I. I'm so anxious, I'm saying, just. And it took this person saying, what are like the first questions you remember asking yourself? Or what, what are your earliest memories? And I said, the first question I remember actually asking is, is my name actually Lily? And you. They went, okay, well that is, that is an anxious child. And you were already questioning your identity. And I said, well, okay. I also had this recurring dream as a kid where imagine two pac men, one's little and one's big. And I'm the little, and I'm going around the board and a big one is chasing me intensely, trying to eat me. Or I was this small blip and there was a really big massive blip. And it was just a feeling. I don't know what the shape was probably round, but I felt like an intense pressure. That one was going to swallow me up. And he's like, everything that you've said is anxiety. And that feeling of anxiety and panic manifested in a way like I talked about originally with evolutionary times. Predator and prey, you freeze, it's fight or flight, you hibernate, you get smaller, you don't want to feel attractive to something that's scary. And so you feel comfortable and most settled in being small and just blending in. And it's so interesting because I'm in an industry where we're trying to stand out all the time and be individuals, while at the same time I became so used to as a kid trying to just go with the flow, not raise any fuss, be kind of perfect in whatever perfect way that meant. And all of that anxiety, we've all been triggered by things in the past few years during the pandemic. And things have come to light your face to look in the mirror at times when you could have just ignored it to begin with. And all of these feelings are coming up that you don't necessarily recognize. And by speaking about it, I've realized so much of that is literally anxiety. And having had that for so many Years. And so living in that creates this inner conflict within myself that is a daily occurrence. It just lives in me. And it's something I have to monitor so that I don't create unnecessary conflict.
- [57:48]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah. And, Lily, you're talking a lot about bigness and littleness.
- [57:52]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [57:53]
Amanda Doyle
Even your early. Your early dreams of, like, this big thing chasing this little thing, and then it's trying to swallow it, or somebody's trying to eat you, or your toxic ex calling you little. Lily, you talk about being in an industry where you're supposed to shine and stand out, but where women are also supposed to stay tiny and small at the same time.
- [58:17]
Glennon Doyle
That's confusing.
- [58:18]
Amanda Doyle
So how? Because we've talked about eating things, eating disorders. And it drives me nuts when people talk about eating disorders as just about body image. Like it's all about, oh, I'm just trying to be a certain shape. It's patronizing, and it's not about that. It's about trying to be safe. It's about deciding that at an early age, not wrongfully, but rightfully so, that it is dangerous as shit to live on the planet in a body, a woman's body, and so trying to mitigate that threat by becoming as small as humanly possible. How is your relationship with bigness and smallness and food going right now?
- [59:04]
Lily Collins
I will say we started off this conversation by talking about nonlinear journeys. And I think mine is a nonlinear experience because I have, in the past year, learned about my anxiety and how that has manifested in my life during times when I have felt out of control or needing to feel safe, as you said, or being rocked within my own body. Whether it's my identity, whether it's an outside situation that causes me to go into robot mode, which is, okay, I have all these things to accomplish. I'm going to be able to do it in a way that feels as perfect as possible. I forget that I need to fuel myself in order to do those things. Meanwhile, I'm also anxious. I don't feel the anxiety all the time. It's subconscious sometimes. But it does physically affect your body in ways that you don't even know until you're outside of it. It's something that I am very aware of. I have surrounded myself with people that are professionals in a lot of ways, whether that's trainer, nutritionist, acupuncture therapist, my friends, my husband, my family that know it's a nonlinear journey and know that I will not always be, quote, unquote, perfect in my journey with it. And it's something that Because I'm talking so much more openly about my experiences and about panicking and feeling anxious at times. It's becoming easier to let a lot of the shame that surrounds anxiety go. And it's interesting because I wrote a book that includes no shame, no regrets, just me in the title. And even someone that can write something and feel something can also at times feel something different. It doesn't make you a hypocrite. And I've had to come to terms with that because sometimes I think, God, I speak about wanting to let certain things go in my mid-20s. And then I find myself in my early 30s, having to reprogram at certain times again because I've had new experiences that have brought up old triggers that I wouldn't have expected in my early 20s or when I wrote the book, in my mid-20s. And so I think it's important for me. First of all, I'm at a place now, career wise, where I love what I do so much. And I feel so at home with a character like Emily that gets to be this unapologetic, work driven, loves love, loves herself. Positive beam of light. I enjoy playing her so much.
- [62:01]
Abby Wambach
A romp of a delight.
- [62:03]
Lily Collins
A romp of a delight. Which, thank you for that still delightful romp. She brings a lot of joy into my life. I can balance that out with other projects that are slightly, maybe more psychological or my friends used to say, dark and depressing because that's kind of where I would gravitate towards. But I'm also with someone who constantly lovingly sees me, sees if I'm struggling, sees if I need holding, sees if I need freeing or celebrating or talking to, and never makes me feel judged when I have a bad day and when I have a bad food day where I get confused or I feel guilty or I feel panicky or any of those feelings. All those feelings exist. They exist and they're real. But I think the more I focus on, for me, the big picture of health and wellness and wanting a big fulfilled life, and I want a family. And those are the things that to me take precedence in my heart and in my body and in my brain. And so much of what used to be take over my entire being as to what caused my anxiety, which then manifested in eating disorder. And I'm really proud of the journey that I've made and the progress that I've made and the art that I've been able to create from a lot of pain and the people I've met, including you guys. I mean, truly, this you Know Glennon, your book and this podcast has enlightened me in so many ways and made me feel like I have friends at times when you think no one else can understand your brain and the idea that there is no shame in the fact that life and your experiences are a non linear experience. And as long as now as me, I know that it's important to have professionals around you that can support, that can lovingly encourage and call to your attention when you may need more advice or help or guidance. That is so far beyond what I had in my mid-20s because I hadn't outsourced certain help. I hadn't transitioned to a new phase of my life where I was like, okay, I've gotten a lot of help to. Now I feel like I'm graduating to a new phase of that. I've dug really deep, I've learned a lot of new things and now I want to focus on those deeper things with someone new. And then it takes me to a new place. And it's just not always acting on the thoughts. But when you become really used to the thoughts, sometimes you feel like you have to act on them the same way over and over again. But it's getting to the place where you realize you don't and you're surrounded by the right people that encourage you to think differently and bigger.
- [65:20]
Amanda Doyle
Lily, I am so great. This interview, we have to stop now, which is weird cause it just started two minutes ago is how I feel.
- [65:27]
Lily Collins
I know, I know. It's so sad.
- [65:28]
Amanda Doyle
I didn't know where this was gonna go. I wanted to just kind of talk and feel the difference between unhealthy and healthy or bad and good in terms of relationships. And I just keep coming back to when you're in the wrong place, you feel small. Everything feels small. And when you get freer, whether it's with yourself or with someone else, everything just feels bigger. And having that sense of both held and free in our relationships with ourselves and each other is heaven, I think. And I love you, Lily Collins. I just have to tell you something funny before we stop. We've been talking about you and reading everything and watching everything and listening to everything because we've become so obsessed and deeply in love with the people that we interview. Last night. We've been talking about you for a solid week. Last night my sister texted me and goes, you are not going to believe this shit. Lily Collins is Phil Collins's daughter. I said, yeah, I know that. Some people know that.
- [66:33]
Abby Wambach
It's like that most unremarkable.
- [66:34]
Amanda Doyle
She Thought she was going to like. Nothing against. Yeah, she thought she was going to break that.
- [66:38]
Abby Wambach
FYI, in case it comes up on weekends.
- [66:41]
Amanda Doyle
Know this, but we have broken it here.
- [66:44]
Lily Collins
I love. No, I love that.
- [66:46]
Amanda Doyle
I.
- [66:46]
Lily Collins
You know what, it's. Honestly, I so appreciate that as well though, because obviously it's my family and I'm so endlessly proud and such an admirer of obviously my dad's work. But it's also, you know, I'm on my own path and my own journey in that sense as well. And so I find it so wonderful and loving and also hilarious.
- [67:18]
Glennon Doyle
So ultimately it's a testament to you.
- [67:21]
Amanda Doyle
He could have been a big Pac man swallowing you up, but you didn't run it and you got bigger and bigger and now you are big Lily. And we love you, Lily. And thanks for doing such hard things and for. Because I just think that you really just being you and showing up and saying what you did today is going to help a whole hell of a lot of people.
- [67:39]
Glennon Doyle
It helped me for sure.
- [67:41]
Lily Collins
I love all of you and I'm so endlessly grateful for the conversations every single time I listen to you. You're just wonderful beings, all three of you. I'm so grateful. This is a huge. A bucket list moment but life fulfilling moment for me to be able to speak with you and to share my small story that feels bigger and bigger the more I say it.
- [68:01]
Amanda Doyle
Yes, yes.
- [68:03]
Abby Wambach
Thank you for all your work and Emily in Paris. Just yay, a delight.
- [68:07]
Lily Collins
Go watch the romp.
- [68:08]
Abby Wambach
Go watch the romp.
- [68:10]
Amanda Doyle
I know for all of us depressive babes, just freaking go watch Emily in Paris. It's not depressing, all right. It'll get us out of that.
- [68:17]
Glennon Doyle
It's beautiful.
- [68:18]
Amanda Doyle
All right, POD squad, we will see you back here next time.
- [68:21]
Lily Collins
Love Foreign.
- [68:28]
Amanda Doyle
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go. Go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.